Mr. Speaker: Prior to recognizing the honourable Government House Leader for Orders of the Day, I would just like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with us from Grandview School 16 Grades 9 and 10 students under the direction of Mrs. Tannis Pulock. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please call debate on second readings on Bill 14.

Mr. Speaker: Resumed debate on second reading, Bill 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amended), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry.

Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Today it is with some great trepidation that I am putting some words on the record concerning Bill 14. Bill 14 has to do with the so-called modernization of the school system. It is called The Public Schools Modernization Act. Quite frankly, it is the first of its kind. I know members opposite have often said that they are doing things the first of its kind in the province, and certainly this is the first of its kind.

It is the first time when authority has been taken away from the trustees in the province of Manitoba and placed in the hands of government, no public consultation. It is the first time this legislation in the province of Manitoba permits the minister, who is removed from the schools on a daily basis, to impose arbitrary and limitless decisions on the local school divisions, which may not be practicable or necessarily even in the best interest of the students in the local community.

Furthermore, it is the first time in the province of Manitoba that the public schools modernization, Bill 14, actually gives unaccountable authority to a minister who is not accountable for the budgets in the local school divisions at the local level. It is with great trepidation I wonder at what this Government is doing, what plan is in place.

We have had quite a year in Fort Garry. This Government is showing a thread, a pattern of taking over total authority without relying on the democratic process that Canada and Manitoba have taken great pride in over a number of months, over a number of years, I must say.

This democratic process is something that our armies, our air force have actually laid down their lives for in the past to protect. Now, for the first time, it is the first of its kind in the province of Manitoba where this authority is undermined.

Mr. Speaker, in Fort Garry this past year, Fort Garry has been sliced and diced in so many ways with total disregard for the feelings of the people in Fort Garry School Division or in the constituency of Fort Garry. It is complete disregard for what is happening to one of the most historic places in the province of Manitoba.

In Intergovernmental Affairs, the Doer government decided to reconfigure the boundary lines. Fort Garry is no longer Fort Garry. It was cut in half, sliced and diced. Part of Fort Garry has now become, for civic elections, Fort Rouge. The other slice is a bit of Fort Garry and River Heights. So it has chopped the community right in half, but what is so disturbing about this is these decisions were made in the dark of night without anybody knowing about them. Citizens in Fort Garry were not aware that this was happening. When The City of Winnipeg Act was passed, the City of Winnipeg allowed for a variance change–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. All members who wish to speak will have the opportunity.

Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I am not surprised that members opposite are a little tense this morning and a little upset, because in Canada and in Manitoba the democratic process is what we hold dear. Now we have in the province of Manitoba a Big Brother, a talk-down kind of government that imposes its will on the people of Manitoba. It certainly has imposed its will on the people of Fort Garry.

Fort Garry residents were unaware that Fort Garry at the civic level would be sliced and diced and absolutely disappear. Mr. Speaker, that was a result of the Doer government's initiative in The City of Winnipeg Act. It was a result of the Doer government's initiative to reconfigure the boundaries without paying close attention to what its own commission requested it do.

Mr. Speaker, in light of that, we now have Fort Garry no longer Fort Garry. It has been decimated. At the civic level, we are now one part of Fort Rouge, the other part a part of River Heights. Where is Fort Garry?

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, the second thing that came along was the forced amalgamation of the school divisions. Fort Garry School Division was very amenable to trying to amalgamate, trying to make things work. They wanted to do it on a voluntary basis. On this side of the House, I have to say, members on this side of the House were in full support of voluntary amalgamation. This is a public record. This is something that we promoted. Looking back historically, the Norrie report was initiated by members on this side of the House to take a close look at amalgamation, to see if there were ways that money could be saved, where areas could work together, like communities work together to build.

Mr. Speaker, members on this side of the House retracted from forcing amalgamation. We did not think it was the thing to do, because we listened. We listened to what every area had to say. We listened to their concerns. To be quite frank, there were no cost savings. We could not find any cost savings. There were no dollars and cents.

Having said that, all that research was gone until the new Government came into power. The Doer government came into power; then all things changed. The Norrie report was brought out and lauded and applauded in many ways, but they did not listen to the Norrie report. What happened, in actual fact, was that the present Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) took his little map and took his crayon, as the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) talked about yesterday, and drew a map. There was no equality amongst all of Manitoba. It was just done in a very arbitrary way.

So, Mr. Speaker, what happened in Fort Garry? Fort Garry was forced to amalgamate and it became Pembina Trails.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I have to agree with the honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). He said he cannot hear her, and I have to agree. It is getting very, very loud in here, and it is very difficult to hear the honourable Member for Fort Garry. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please.

Mrs. Smith: It is quite noisy in this House this morning. I do have some comments that I do want to be put on record, because I have a concern. I have a concern, Mr. Speaker, that the democratic process that we hold so dear here in Manitoba is fast going under the leadership of this present Government. I have to say that it is unfortunate that the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) is not present here today to hear my speech.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members that it is out of order to make reference to members that are either in the Chamber or members who are out of the Chamber. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please.

* (10:10)

Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, in the last couple of days we have heard rhetoric from the Minister of Education about not wanting to debate the bill. He puts out a phoney press release demanding that we start debating the bill and when we do start the debate, the minister does not even have the courage or the will to sit and listen to the debate.

I think that is shameful and I think that the minister should be called to order for that. Where is he?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Not only is the information, of course, not accurate, but that is not a point of order. Of course it is an interruption. It is a desperate point, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately.

Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, I would remind all honourable members again that points of order are to be used to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule and not to be used for debating.

I had just made a ruling about mentioning members that are absent in the chair. It is a rule of the Manitoba Legislature. I am just enforcing the rules that govern all of us in this Chamber. So I am bringing that as a rule.

The honourable member does not have a point of order. I would have to say it is a dispute over the facts.

Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): With the greatest respect, I challenge your ruling.

Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged.

Mr. Speaker: All those in support of sustaining the ruling, say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to sustaining the ruling, say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it.

Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, a recorded vote, please.

Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members.

Order. Following Manitoba rules, the one hour has expired. Please turn off the bells.

The ruling of the Chair has been challenged, and the rule that was challenged was the presence or absence of members in the Chamber during debate.

The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 29, Nays 20.

Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained.

Mr. Speaker: We will now go back to resumed debate on second reading of Bill 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act. The honourable Member for Fort Garry had the floor.

Mrs. Smith: I just want to double check how much time I have left to complete.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has 31 minutes.

Mrs. Smith: In continuation, I find it worrisome that the Attorney General of this province can stand up in this House and actually state that some of the information that I am putting on the record is incorrect. I talked about the way the top-down decision making for government had changed in the democratic society we had for years here in Manitoba. Bill 14 has definitely demonstrated the fact that this top-down decision making does not allow elected members, at the local level, to make decisions, such as the trustees in the Fort Garry School Division.

I cited three different instances in our local area of Fort Garry where this has actually happened. To reassure members opposite that my facts are quite clearly correct, I would like to draw attention to the fact that our community in Fort Garry is facing serious consequences as a result of the Doer government's decision to exempt the University of Manitoba from paying municipal education taxes. So, although tax relief is a welcome break for the University of Manitoba, it was important that this Government understand that our local taxpayers in Fort Garry not shoulder the total tax burden.

This Government should be reminded that students throughout the province use the University of Manitoba. The University of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, is a fine facility, one of the best in Canada, I would say one of the best in North America. Having said that, however, as MLA for Fort Garry I have encouraged the Doer government to ensure that an annual grant to the Fort Garry School Division would be forwarded to compensate for the deadline in the special levy that would have been raised on the university assessment.

* (11:20)

Mr. Speaker, quite clearly, previously this year the Doer government stated that any increase in taxes due to the decision to exempt the University of Manitoba from paying municipal and education taxes, any increase in taxes, the Doer government stated, due to this decision would be offset by the proposed decrease in the Education Support Levy assessed by the provincial government.

In actual fact, that statement is very misleading. That statement is a statement that is untrue from the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province. This decision, coupled with the cost of forced amalgamation, will force Fort Garry School Division to either raise taxes or cut important, existing school programs. In fact, the projected impact on the education special levy assessed by the school division will be 8.1 percent by the year 2006. This is a serious problem.

So what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) was referring to in terms of my concern about Fort Garry and my explanation of how this present Government has impacted in a very negative way on the citizens in Fort Garry is truly worrisome.

When a government comes into power, it should be a government for all people. But, in fact, in December of '99, right after the present Government came into power, the Winnipeg Ward Boundaries Commission presented a number of recommendations to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen). Included in those recommendations was the commission's request for greater flexibility in determining the number of wards in Winnipeg. So it is not enough to put one burden on the area in Fort Garry, but another one was put on as well.

In July of 2001, the NDP government, the Doer government, amended The City of Winnipeg Act, and I must put on record that members on this side of the House voted against that act to allow the Winnipeg Ward Boundaries Commission to change ward boundaries in Winnipeg and to make the ward boundaries established by the commission final and binding. Unfortunately, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) failed to provide the commission the flexibility they had asked for in their December 1999 report.

In the commission's final report, the commission states, and I quote from the report: The commission recognizes that had it had the luxury of determining the number of wards, as recommended in the 1999 study, the addition of an additional ward would provide a solution to the Fort Garry problem. This is an abomination to the principles that democracy is based on. Citizens throughout Fort Garry had no idea this was even happening.

Mr. Speaker, when we see the thread of the top-down decision making that is done by the present Government, the change from a democratic way of doing things to a top-down, Big Brother genre, it is very worrying. We do live in a democratic society. This is not a society that is based on what we see in other parts of the world when people do not have a chance to speak, people do not have a chance to voice their opinions.

In the Fort Garry area, it is more than worrisome, it is irresponsible of the Government in power right now to do such a thing in respect to the boundaries and respect to the removal of the property tax from the university without any regard for the citizens and the taxpayers in the area of Fort Garry surrounding that university. It is irresponsible to slice and dice a traditional, historic area like Fort Garry without any regard to going out and speaking to the public.

It was found out that there were very small little notices here and there in obscure pages of the Winnipeg Free Press announcing the hearings from the commission. As I went out to Fort Garry, I found Fort Garry people did not even know this was happening. Suddenly overnight they wake up and it is a done deal.

Why is it a done deal, Mr. Speaker? It is a done deal because this Government is taking a Big Brother, top-down approach. In regard to Bill 14, this is another example of this Government taking over the reins of power, telling the people of Manitoba what they are going to do and how they are going to do it. If the people of Manitoba do not like what they are going to do and how to do it, then they tell them anyway and they do it anyway.

When you ask the Government why this has happened they said: Because we were elected to power. We are government and we can do anything we want to do.

Well, I will tell you, in the next election people will not feel that way anymore. People suspect a government that goes back on its promises. They can compare what is said before the election, and they can compare to what is said now.

In Bill 14, this legislation would permit the minister, who is further removed from the schools, to impose arbitrary and limitless decisions on the local school divisions. There is something wrong with that in a democratic society. In a democratic society we have duly elected trustees, duly elected representatives to represent the areas in which people live. Advisory councils for school leadership, other parent councils, representatives from community centres all take pride in the voice and the volunteerism that they have in this province. They are what makes a community strong. They are what makes a city strong. They are what makes a province strong.

I will quote from the letter sent to the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) from the Fort Garry School Division No. 5. I quote from the letter: There is no objective authority, there is no objective reason for this shift of authority from local school boards to the minister. I quote this: The only logical conclusion to which a reasonable person can come is that this legislation is politically motivated. That is a quote from the Fort Garry School Division trustees from a letter to the Minister of Education. The letter goes on to say: The minister would be placed in a position to tailor the budgets of amalgamating boards to suit the political needs of the Government.

Mr. Speaker, we should be worried here in the province of Manitoba. This is a first, when the Attorney General keeps stating that this is the first in the province, and we find out that some of these firsts are just remakes of the same old, same old. But we find that other bills and other things indeed are first, because in a democratic province of Manitoba we do not do business that way. This is not, as the Premier (Mr. Doer) stated, the Manitoba way. Having said that clearly, I will come back to the fact that at the MAST conference, where the Premier was speaking, he actually said publicly that he would not amalgamate school divisions, he would not force amalgamations in school divisions. The Premier said this is not the Manitoba way.

My question to this Government is: What has changed? My question on behalf of the residents of Fort Garry: Why is Fort Garry sliced and diced in the civic elections because of what the Intergovernmental Affairs Minister (Ms. Friesen) did and the Doer government did? Why is Fort Garry forced into amalgamation at great cost to them with no plan, with no way of making this work for the best interests of the students? There are some problems. I continue. I continue because the third way was the removal of the property tax from the university. It is a welcome relief to the university to have that removal of property tax. What is not understood is why the local taxpayers have to shoulder that burden, that tax burden. On top of slicing and dicing Fort Garry for civic elections and putting the cost, the tax burden, on the taxpayers of Fort Garry for the removal of the property tax, we now have Bill 14, the so-called modernization of the school divisions here in Manitoba.

I was in the education field for 22 years, and it was unthinkable, unthinkable that authority would be taken away from the people at the grass roots. It was unthinkable that a government would raise the banner and say: We are the boss. This is what you are going to do, and this is how you are going to do it. To my knowledge, that does not happen in a democratic society.

* (11:30)

Mr. Speaker, some of the most significant changes in Bill 14, move certain important decision-making power from school boards to the Minister of Education, Training and Youth. That is very significant. These changes remove decisions from the locally elected authority which is most familiar with the circumstances and reasons for the decisions to a more removed and centralized authority at the provincial government. This is taken directly from the letter sent from the Fort Garry School Division. It goes on to say: As a matter of general principle, the Fort Garry School Division believes that school boards ordinarily exercise good judgment while making these decisions; and, since these decisions require a high degree of local knowledge, local decisions are better able to make a properly balanced decision than is the minister or other officials of the provincial government.

As member of the Legislature for Fort Garry, it is not only me, one lone voice, saying these things. We have so many people in Fort Garry speaking up against this Government because the people in Fort Garry are used to a democratic society. They are used to having a voice. They are used to giving their say. Mr. Speaker, they are law-abiding, honourable, well-educated people. They are people who care about Manitoba, who care about Fort Garry, who care about the city of Winnipeg. There are significant people who live in Fort Garry who have long-standing history in this province. It is an insult. It is an insult to be treated this way by the Government of Manitoba.

Toward the end of my discussion, I want to talk about the numbers of people, the over 700 people who wrote to me, and there are more coming in, and said that they were so disgusted with what this Government has done regarding Fort Garry. They are doing it regarding the boundaries, and they are doing it regarding the increased taxes. I have to say that I am thankful that at least yet I can stand up and talk in this Legislature, although we do look across the way, and we see the smiles on the faces. We see the shaking of heads, but the fact of the matter is this is a serious problem. This is serious when governments take over the decision making and the control.

I will read from a petition that was put together by the people of Fort Garry. I will be tabling these documents at the end of my speech today. On January 11, 2002, the Government of Manitoba announced a five-year, phased-in, property tax plan for four of the province's universities. The Government of Manitoba's plan shifts the university's property tax bill directly on to the taxpayers of Winnipeg and Brandon. The cost to the City of Winnipeg for 2002 will be $1.3 million, rising to $6.64 million in the year 2006, for an accumulated loss of $19.9 million over five years. The loss of almost $20 million over five years will have negative consequences for the City of Winnipeg's efforts to lower property taxes and make Winnipeg more competitive as a city.

While all taxpayers in Winnipeg will be adversely affected, those taxpayers residing in the school divisions of Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, St. Boniface, St. Vital and Winnipeg No. 1 will also see increases in their local education taxes. The Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1 and St. Boniface school divisions will lose $1.86 million in total this year, rising to $9.34 million in 2006, for an accumulated revenue loss of $28 million over five years.

The government of Manitoba has made it clear that it will not, in any way, make up the loss of tax dollars the universities currently pay to municipalities and school divisions. Mr. Speaker, these people, our people in Fort Garry, are petitioning the Legislative Assembly to request the Government of Manitoba ensure that local property and education taxes do not rise as a result of the offloading of provincial responsibilities onto the City of Winnipeg, the City of Brandon, Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1, St. Boniface and St. Vital school divisions.

Mr. Speaker, the problem is that there is no regard for the people and what the people are thinking in this province of Manitoba. There is no regard. The problem is that having said that, I have read out the petition–and I do have to check with you again. How many more minutes do I have?

Mr. Speaker: Thirteen minutes remain.

Mrs. Smith: Prior to tabling these particular petitions, I want to say that, when you look at the thread that is going on in the current government, my strongest concern is the top-down authority, the lack of collaboration.

There are many photo ops. There are many interviews. It is an eighth of an inch thick and a mile wide, because the problem is there is no substantial plan. There are just very surface kinds of policies that are going on. The most damaging part is the lack of democratic choice, the lack of collaboration, the lack of a voice, the lack of a government's plan to take into consideration each and every constituency in this wonderful province of Manitoba.

When you have trustees, boards of trustees writing in and not complaining about the forced amalgamation, although some have complained very loudly–there are even court cases right now coming up in the court systems because of this move by the Doer government. When you see trustees saying to a government, you cannot take our decision-making power away from us, when you see that happening in the middle of Canada, in the province of Manitoba, it is very worrisome, Mr. Speaker.

When you see other areas where a government does not take action, like in the case of the Hells Angels, nothing has happened to really get any legislation there. The shop is opening up. That does not seem to be a top priority, but a top priority seems to be to modernize the school system in Manitoba.

Unfortunately, this modernization bill has caused a lot of hurt. It has caused communities to be split up. It was promised by the Premier (Mr. Doer) that voluntary amalgamation was something that members opposite supported, and, publicly, members on this side of the House supported voluntary amalgamation, Mr. Speaker, because there are cases when it is prudent to do so.

I must say that when the tide changes and there is an immediate flip-flop and now suddenly school divisions are told that they will be amalgamated whether they want to or not, that is where we have some worrisome challenges come into play, because the fact of the matter is, this Government is in power. When a Minister of Education in December '99 can say that he was against forcing school divisions to amalgamate–and he said, I quote, I am not inclined to impose anything. I am really not.

Then, all of a sudden, we found out, on September 24, 2001, that same Minister of Education was ready to force the issue on amalgamation. I quote, it said: The minister is set to ask his Cabinet colleagues for a green light to amalgamate school divisions in their regions of the province, with every school division in the province under review. Guess what? In south Winnipeg, in Fort Garry, Fort Garry people feel very much as if they have been targeted, and I think there are other parts of the province that feel that way too.

Mr. Speaker, with a responsible government, it has to be said that part of responsible government is to adhere to the principles of democratic decision making, something that our veterans fought for in the First and Second World Wars. It is something now that we hold very dear.

* (11:40)

We talk about collaboration, and we find out that there is no collaboration. So, in Fort Garry, there was no collaboration when it came to the boundaries review. It was done in the blink of an eye overnight. There was no collaboration when there was removal of property taxes from the university, with no plan to support the taxpayers that had to shoulder that burden. There was no collaboration with the taxpayers. There was no collaboration when it comes to Bill 14. Once again, Fort Garry School Division is asking that this Government stop and listen and think like they promised to do.

Mr. Speaker, there are serious, serious problems in this province. The Big Brother attitude is not something that I am sure some members opposite would want, and I know all members opposite on this side would want, because in the literature over the years and when this Government was in opposition, I read over and over and over again in Hansard how they listened, how members opposite wanted to collaborate.

Mr. Speaker, when we talk about the financial fiscal responsibilities in this province and we talk about the burden of taxation on the people, these are critical issues. When we talk about the educational part that impacts on our youth and our children and our schools, this is extremely important.

Having said that, careful attention has to be made to this issue by the Premier (Mr. Doer) of our province, by the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), and by the other ministers in authority, because they are changing the Government of Manitoba from a democratic government to a government that is otherwise. It is slow but sure, but it is happening.

Historically, when you look over the historical record across the world and in different countries, this is how it begins: where government has the total authority and where the people have little or no say. When the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) keeps saying he can hear the jackboots in the hallways of the Legislature, I, too, am beginning to hear the jackboots in the hallways of the Legislature in Manitoba.

I would like to now take time to appeal to this Government to take into consideration the over 700 signatures here on these petitions, and, Mr. Speaker, there are more petitions that will be coming in the subsequent days as we are sitting here in the Legislature to take care of the taxation element, the taxation problem in Fort Garry.

We now have our tax bills. I can assure you, in spite of the fact that the present government said no taxes would go up, we see from the tax bills in our hands, and I can bring some in, that they are going up. When you project over the next five or six years, we are in trouble. The problem is, that will take us in and past another election. I can assure you, in the area of Fort Garry, they will not have the opportunity to be represented by this current Government. The problem is that this Government has not listened to Manitoba. The problem is this Government has not adhered to the basic democratic principles that were set up for centuries in this country. That is why, in previous years, after some examination, the constituents in Manitoba voted the NDP governments out. Mr. Speaker, the same thing is happening again, only they have created bills that, indeed, are one of a kind.

I would like to table these petitions at this time in this House. Again, the petition said the reasons for this petition are:

"On January 11, 2002, the Government of Manitoba announced a five-year phased-in property tax plan for four of the province's universities.

"The Government of Manitoba's plan shifts the universities' property tax bill directly onto the taxpayers of Winnipeg and Brandon.

"The cost to the City of Winnipeg for 2002 will be $1.3 million, rising to $6.64 million in 2006, for an accumulated loss of $19.9 million over five years.

"The loss of almost $20 million over five years will have negative consequences for the City of Winnipeg's efforts to lower property taxes and make Winnipeg more competitive.

"While all taxpayers in Winnipeg will be adversely affected, those taxpayers residing in the school divisions of Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, St. Boniface, St. Vital and Winnipeg No. 1 will also see increases in their local education taxes.

"The Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1 and St. Boniface school divisions will lose $1.86 million in total this year, rising to $9.34 million in 2006, for an accumulated revenue loss of $28 million over five years.

"The Government of Manitoba has made it clear that it will not in any way make up the loss of tax dollars the universities currently pay to municipalities and school divisions."

The people of Fort Garry petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

"We request the Government of Manitoba to ensure that local property and education taxes do not rise as a result of the offloading of provincial responsibilities onto the City of Winnipeg, the City of Brandon, the Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1, St. Boniface and St. Vital school divisions."

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) rising to speak? No.

The honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. The normal practice I have is to go from one side to the other. That is why, when the honourable member stood up, I had to recognize him. Okay, now, the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet has the floor.

Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I move, seconded by the member from Steinbach, that debate on Bill 14 be adjourned.

Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, seconded by the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner), that debate be adjourned. Agreed? No, it has been denied.

Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: On a point of order.

Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, I stand on a point of order today. I know that the House Leader from the other side was advised by our House Leader that we would be prepared to put up speakers today. We have had the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) who would like to start at the conclusion of today's Question Period to make his comments.

I leave that out there and I suggest to the House Leader that he consider that option.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. We have to follow the rules of the House. When a motion is moved, I have to put the motion to the floor.

Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of adjourning the debate, say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to adjourning debate on Bill 14, say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it.

An Honourable Member: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members.

Order. According to Manitoba rules, one hour has expired, so please turn the bells off.

The question before the House is shall debate on Bill 14 be adjourned.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 19, Nays 28.

Mr. Speaker: The motion has been defeated. Given that the motion to adjourn the debate was defeated, in compliance with a 1984 ruling of Speaker Walding, when Bill 14 is next called, the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) will have to speak immediately or lose his right to speak on the bill.

The hour being 12 p.m., I am leaving the Chair with the understanding that the House will reconvene at 1:30.