Hon. Mr. Caldwell, Hon. Ms. McGifford

Mr. Cam Moir, Private Citizen

Mr. Levi Foy, Private Citizen

Ms. Theresa Stanick, Private Citizen

Mr. Paul Jensen, Private Citizen

Ms. Nasheba Dejesus, Private Citizen

Ms. Christin Lavergne, Private Citizen

Ms. Pat Drew, Winnipeg School Division

Bill 20-The Adult Learning Centres Act

Mr. Chairperson: Good evening. Will The Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs please come to order. Our first order of business is the election of a Vice-Chairperson. Are there any nominations?

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Chair, I would like to nominate Ms. Allan.

Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Allan has been nominated. Are there any further nominations? Seeing none, Ms. Allan is appointed Vice-Chairperson.

This meeting has been called to consider Bill 20, The Adult Learning Centres Act. We have a number of presenters registered to speak to this bill, and I will read the names: Paulette Lavergne, Nasheba Dejesus, Doug Harry, Karen Russell, Levi Foy, Don Smith, Cam Moir, Theresa Stanick, Bill Franklin, Paul Jensen, Shaina Kipling, Lloyd Williams, Violet Bradburn, Peter Wohlgemut-Peter Wohlgemut is sitting in place of Brian Ardern-also Sylvia Provenski and Jerry Storie. I apologize for any mispronunciations, and I sympathize with you, being named Nevakshonoff myself.

If there is anyone else in attendance who wishes to speak to these bills, please register with the attendant at the back of the room.

We have a number of out-of-town presenters in attendance this evening as indicated by an asterisk on the speaking lists. The out-of-town presenters are: Cam Moir, Theresa Stanick, Paul Jensen, Peter Wohlgemut, Sylvia Provenski and Jerry Storie. Are there any other individuals who are from out-of-town? If you would go to the back of the room and identify yourself with the clerk, he will bring the name up and you will be put on the list.

Is it the will of the committee to hear out-of-town presenters first? [Agreed]

For the information of presenters, 20 copies of any written versions of presentations would be appreciated. If you require assistance with photocopying, please see the attendant at the back of the room.

I would like to inform the committee that written submissions have been received from the Border Land and Winnipeg school divisions. Copies of these briefs have been provided to committee members at the start of the meeting. Does the committee agree to have these written submissions appear in the committee transcript for this meeting? [Agreed]

How does the committee propose to deal with presenters who are not in attendance today but have their names called? Shall they be dropped to the bottom of the list and then dropped from the list entirely after being called twice? [Agreed]

Did the committee wish to set time limits on presentations?

Mr. Struthers: Mr. Chair, it has worked very well in the committees that we have had so far this session to limit the time that they present to 15 minutes and allow 5 minutes for questions and answers. I propose that.

Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I would like to remind the committee that Manitoba is unique in being perhaps the only jurisdiction in Canada that enables private citizens to come and make presentations to us as legislators before a proposed law becomes law.

I would like to maintain that tradition. It has been the tradition-I know it has been abridged in the last few years-that we listen to our citizens when they take the time and trouble to come and speak to us, and the fact that they speak more than 5 minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes or that we as legislators may find a particular presenter interesting and want to spend 10 or 15 minutes in questioning them, I do not think we should short-change ourselves.

So I register an objection to any time limit imposed on the presenters.

Mr. Chairperson: Well, we have a counterproposal. Are there any further comments on this?

Mr. Struthers: I would suggest that, given the number of presenters we have here this evening, we continue the tradition and continue the practice we have established, not just in this session, but in previous sessions under previous administrations, in which 15 minutes was allowed for presenters to present with 5 minutes for questions and answers.

I think if the Chair wants to use a little bit of discretion and some flexibility, we would be fine with that, but I think we would need to make sure that everybody has a chance to present tonight at a decent time. That is the reason why I would like to limit it to 15 and 5.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Struthers. It has been proposed that we limit presentations to 15 minutes and 5 minutes for questioning and that some discretion be allowed to, with leave, extend presentations. Is that acceptable to the committee? [Agreed]

Finally, as a courtesy to presenters, are there any suggestions as to how late the committee should sit this evening?

Mr. Struthers: I propose to the committee that we go till midnight and then re-evaluate there as to where we are on the list of presenters.

Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Chair, I would like to move that there be a change in the committee structure tonight: the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) for the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire).

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Pitura. We will determine how late we are going to sit tonight first and then I will deal with this motion. Okay? So it is proposed we sit until midnight and then if necessary reassess at that point in time whether to go further. [Agreed]

Just for your information, it is not required that this be put forth in a motion. You just need leave of the committee to make the substitution, so does Mr. Pitura have leave to substitute the Member for Russell for the Member for Arthur-Virden? [Agreed]

That is it for the preliminaries. I am anticipating I will receive something from the Clerk at the back, but for the time being I am going to call Cam Moir to the podium.

* (18:40)

Mr. Cam Moir (Private Citizen): Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Moir, do you have any written copies for distribution to the committee?

Mr. Moir: Mine is just in point form for myself. If you want copies later, I can give them to you, but no.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, sir, that is not necessary. If you want to present verbally you can do so, and I ask you to proceed.

Mr. Moir: Okay. I would like to thank you for welcoming us all here to offer presentations before you in regard to adult learning in Manitoba.

I have a personal story. I worked for over 20 years in the radio marketing field and then I decided to make some personal changes in my life. At 49, I decided to go back to school and get my Grade 12, which I did not complete at a younger age, so I went back to the Brandon Adult Learning Centre to complete this.

I had a lot of encouragement from there. The staff was very good for us and we did a lot of learning. I felt the need for having my complete Grade 12 if I wanted to apply for any jobs. Most jobs, even if I was to work for the City of Brandon, I would need my Grade 12 education, so I knew I needed to upgrade my education. If I needed to go further in my educational field, if I wanted to take business courses at ACC or come to University of Winnipeg, they prefer that you have a Grade 12. So there was a need there.

I also feel I needed to have that accomplishment within myself, that I had completed something that started out a long time ago. I am now self-employed and I am enjoying life a lot better. When I was at Brandon Adult Learning Centre, our English teacher came to me and asked if I would become a tutor for the students there, and so I talked it over with Jeff at the time and I became a tutor.

That is really when my learning and experience really took place, because I got working with the students. I found out these people came from so many different backgrounds. They were all talking about their hopes and their dreams, what they wanted to accomplish, where they wanted to go with their education, even just to complete their Grade 12, some to move on to higher education because they wanted different fields to pursue.

I think if we sit back and all look, at some point in our lives, we have made mistakes. We have made a bad choice here and there along the way. For these people especially, this is like a second chance for them, an opportunity to correct something, for them to go further afield type of thing. You feel like a failure, you feel like you have low self-esteem, you are maybe not as smart as everybody else because you do not have your Grade 12. Whether you are 21 or 51, being there, you are either a single parent who needed an opportunity to break away from where you were because of the situation you were in, or you are married and want to help improve your family's situations. They came to improve themselves and improve their education.

I noticed when I was at the graduation and leading up to that the faces of accomplishment of these people who had graduated, the beaming faces, the smiles on them. They felt like they were on the top of the world. Their self-esteem had shot up so far. So many of them came to me: I cannot do this. I said, yes, you can, and I showed them, and I helped them. Then they felt this feeling of accomplishment because, really, they did it. They did the assignments. They did the essays. They discovered parts of themselves they did not think they had within them. You see this on graduation day, these people who are just ear-to-ear grins. You do not just pick that up. That is something that comes from inside.

Adult learning gives hope, it gives options and it gives opportunities. We hear politicians speak of the burden of the social system on the government: People on welfare, people who are in need. We want to give them better opportunities. Adult learning is one of the ways.

We hear politicians also speak of ways we need a trainable and skilled workforce. Well, if you do not give people education you are not going to find that. It does not matter whether you are young or old, everybody can learn. That is what we need, which in total we have a better society, a rich province.

We do have a great province here in Manitoba, people with hope, people with courage. Education is about people. It is about hope, opportunity and success. You, as legislators in the Legislature, will be determining this. I am looking forward to you making a positive impact here because we do need a positive impact. We need hope for people who maybe do not have as much hope as everybody else does. Give them the opportunity.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Moir. I hope I am pronouncing your name correctly.

Mr. Moir: Yes.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, sir. Questions for Mr. Moir.

Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Thanks, Cam, for making the trip from Brandon. I am really pleased to see you. Levi is here. I know the Brandon Adult Learning Centre on Rosser Avenue is pre-eminent in Manitoba as one of the leaders. Jeff Kerr, who is, sadly, leaving the centre this year, has sure established a fabulous centre in Brandon. I am just happy to see you here. I know there are others from Brandon who will be presenting. Thank you for making the trip out. It was a pleasure to be at your graduation. All the best. Thank you.

Mr. Moir: My pleasure to be here-

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Moir, I have to identify you if you want to respond.

Mr. Moir: Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity of coming here and being able to make an opportunity to present to you people.

Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Thank you very much, Cam. I also want to reiterate the comments of the minister. Thanks for coming out all this way to sit and speak to politicians. We appreciate that. Though our system spends a lot of money in early intervention, which we should, it is never too late to get your education. I think that message of hope is very important. Adult learning centres are integral in that. We certainly appreciate you coming forward in support. Thanks again.

Mr. Moir: As I said, I know there are reasons why you are having this committee meeting about rules, regulations and funding. Do not punish the many for the mistakes of a few.

Mr. Chairperson: No further questions? Thank you for your presentation, sir.

I will next call Levi Foy, private citizen.

Mr. Foy has been identified as an out-of-towner. That is why he is presenting at this point.

Do you have a written brief for the committee, sir?

Mr. Levi Foy (Private Citizen): Yes, I do.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, sir. You may begin your presentation.

Mr. Foy: Okay, I am just going to read to everybody here what I have written down.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Levi Foy and I would like to talk to you all about my views about adult learning centres. Last year I had the privilege of attending a well-established school dedicated to educating adults. Going back to school changed my life and changes the lives of many others as well. Going back to school has given me hope when I was desperate and has given me dreams when all I could do was stare.

I dropped out of school twice between the ages of 16 and 18. At that time, I found public education boring and abusive.

Education is a fundamental brick in the wall of life. I know this and I have always known this. So why am I now a graduate of adult education? There are many factors that contributed to my success, failure and eventual success in the education system. I blame myself entirely for my ultimate failure in mainstream public education because I could not mentally and physically put up with the continuous abuse that often took place in public education facilities.

* (18:50)

I, like many others, wanted to find another route out of school, so I took the so-called easy way out. However, after working a few years I realized that school, as much as I had grown to despise it, was my only option out of the unhealthy lifestyle I was leading.

I saw a number of students who, like myself, had a difficult time attending school because of numerous exogenous factors. In a number of situations people will only attend public school until it is no longer necessary. For example, in small communities dominated by one industry once a person has reached a certain age they can go work in the factories, on the farm, in the mine, in the forest, or on the boat. That person feels they do not need to attend high school. However, people are constantly moving, and once in urban settings high school education is necessary to obtain a somewhat reasonable job. That is one need for adult education.

Adult education is also necessary for some students who do not have the emotional and mental support needed to complete high school in the set-out time frame. Situations like this may often arise from an unstable or unhealthy home life. There may be mental and emotional stressors put on a teenager because of the cold and abusive social structure within schools, often making the child victim to peer pressure and willing to succumb to drug abuse or alcohol abuse. The child may continuously miss school because of drug use and then be coerced into leaving the system with or without the possibility of coming back to school. Also the child may be bored in the regular system because of the lack of challenges, or the child may have a different learning style the public education system often does not recognize. There are also the students who have learning disabilities, recognized or unrecognized.

A well-developed and thorough adult education system in Manitoba can have a huge impact for the many migrants who come to the province each and every year. I say that because adult education makes the possibility of going further into post-secondary education a realistic possibility. If the adult education system is well-respected throughout the country, then that makes adult learners in this province inferior to no other students in this country. Having the option of going back to school makes Manitoba a more attractive place for foreign and domestic migrants.

Prior to attending an adult learning centre, I often viewed going back to school as a second chance. However, I do not feel it is a second chance because with chance there is the opportunity of risk, and education, no matter if completed or not, is never a risk. I think adult education is a realistic attempt for the many people who did not have the adequate amount of resources to finish high school on a predetermined schedule. What makes adult education special is that a majority of the students want to be at the school, they want to learn and that plays a pivotal role in shaping the student.

Some of the most important details that I feel should be applied to the adult education system and adult learning centres are:

The quality of education, so when a graduate pursues post-secondary education they will be inferior to no other student in Manitoba or Canada, meaning that the Department of Education should solely influence the curriculum in most courses, courses that are offered in regular high schools.

I feel that adult education is very interesting and has the opportunity to explore the different avenue of cross-learning or dual credits. This poses great impact on the student because it may free up some financial resources and time. This is a great opportunity and I support dual credits and the importance they have because the majority of the students who will pursue post-secondary education will attend community college. That is why I support the partnerships that can be formed in the communities and community colleges

The schools should be geared for the adult learner with a firm flexibility, meaning there should be rules and policies, but some of the policies are going to have to be less harsh because a majority of students in adult learning centres have other obligations, such as children and working.

Finally, I feel that adult learning centres play a significant role in breaking down the barriers in an equal society. Adult learning centres offer the working class and minorities the ability to help eliminate negative stereotypes. I say this because graduates of adult learning centres will graduate with a renewed sense of pride, determination and grit. A lot of the graduates from adult learning centres were and are victims of negative stereotypes.

We know there is a need for adult learning centres within the province of Manitoba. All I ask of you is, whatever the outcome of this act, that it not be touched by ignorance in any way. Before you make a decision on this act, think of all the people adult learning centres affect every day in this province. Think of the glory that can be achieved when adult learning centres are operated properly and efficiently. Effective adult learning centres can empower the oppressed.

Thank you very much for your time.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Foy, for your presentation. Questions for the presenter?

Mr. Caldwell: Levi, I did not get a chance to congratulate you on your remarks at the convocation in Brandon, but you spoke very well of your adult learning experience in Brandon at the convocation. You certainly spoke well again this evening.

I was particularly impressed with the remarks about balancing flexibility with the quality of education in adult learning centres, and I could not agree with you more in terms of providing a system that is inferior to none in Canada. Do you want to elaborate a little bit on that or could you elaborate a bit upon that, about your own future decisions for education or work?

Mr. Foy: Right. Next year, I am going into the University of Winnipeg and I will just be starting off there. Then I do not know what I am going to do. I am probably going to take a Bachelor of Arts, probably with a major in social sciences, and then I would like to go into a Master's program sometime in the future. I just have to figure out what I am going to do.

Mr. Caldwell: Well, thank you very much. You know you were a very able class president and valedictorian this year and thank you for coming out tonight. I very much appreciate it.

Mr. Schuler: Levi, as a member of this committee, I have to tell you I am really impressed with your presentation, especially when someone says I blame myself entirely for my mistakes. I think that is a real important, mature decision to actually take that you do not blame others. I love this quote: "And education, no matter if completed or not, is never a risk." I think that is crucial in all of this, that no matter where you are in life or what you are facing, it is never a risk to go back.

Obviously, it has done you well. The presentation is fantastic. In fact, I would just comment to the MLAs from Brandon that, after seeing this presentation and the speaking style, maybe they should be looking over their shoulder. Very well done, and thank you for your presentation to this committee.

Mr. Chairperson: Comment, Mr. Foy?

Mr. Foy: Thank you both very much. That means a lot because I am extremely nervous.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? Thank you for your presentation, sir.

The next individual is Theresa Stanick. Ms. Stanick, do you have a written presentation for the committee?

Ms. Theresa Stanick (Private Citizen): No, I do not.

Mr. Chairperson: Is that the correct pronunciation of your name?

Ms. Stanick: Yes, it is.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay. You may proceed when ready.

Ms. Stanick: I, too, am nervous, so I am going to pretend that you are just in my living room and I am just speaking to you about the last year in my life. I would like to give you a bit of background on myself first before I begin into the three points that I would like to bring up about the adult learning centres.

I turned 40 years old this summer and I, for the past 13 years, have been an office manager. With the changeover in the business from one family member to another, my position was eliminated and I was forced with thinking about what I was going to do for the next 25 years. Actually, in a way it was kind of a spur to get me going, because I had initially wanted to be a nurse years ago, and they are crying for them, and my children are now 17 and 18 years old.

So I could, in all reality, go back to school with the event that I went for my Grade 12. I had never finished Grade 12. It was personal reasons. I could not stand to live at home any more and I left halfway through the school year and actually, in a way, it never eliminated any possibilities for me that cropped up. I had good jobs. I came to Winnipeg and worked for the Manitoba Motor League here. I had nice positions and an okay lifestyle and now, at the moment, I am married. We farm just north of Brandon, as well as we run two businesses out of our home and we both worked full time. So, it is not like I lacked ambition. So I just want you to know that when I first involved myself with going back for nursing I had done home care for seven years so I was familiar with the system, not in the hospital but in the home, and knew that was something I enjoyed doing. But I needed a Grade 12 to get into Red River community college for the accelerated program. So I had to go back to school.

Now, the three points I would like to touch on about the adult learning centres are all based on someone my age reinventing their life, not somebody who is in their early twenties and a single parent or just lost and does not know what they want to do with their life. I mean going right back to square one. I would like to speak of the Brandon Adult Learning Centre as an importance of a stepping stone into the next stage or phase of your education because I have to be honest with you. I found it extremely difficult going back to school with 20-year-olds who were struggling financially or with alcohol or abuse or a single parent or other family issues. It took me about four months and counselling through the centre to get into that mode. It is a part of your learning that is not really in the education system, but an adult learning centre is a definite part of it. You have such a range of students. We are not all 16, 17 years old and still living at home. It is an excellent system for getting the older student back into the swing of things of going to university or on to college.

* (19:00)

The next thing I felt was of great importance, this both affects myself and my two sons who are, as I said, 17 and 18, is the importance of dual credits. I functioned in the business world for 13 years, like I said. I know it is nice and rosy to say you can hand this funding over and there is going to be this, but there has to be some sort of feedback. It is a business world. You cannot say that it is not. You are not going to just keep feeding money into a system that is not going to produce something good out of it.

I found the kids that go through-I guess they are not really kids, they are in their 20s, they need those dual credits. It plants a seed in their brain that even though they finished this grade 12 it does not have to end there. They already have one foot up into something else. Who knows where that will lead. It is easy to say: What is the point, but really it is going to get them into that post-secondary education where you do not know what is going to happen when their lives finally do even out and they get on a keel of where they are thinking along the lines of what they want to do to contribute to society.

The third thing I want to bring up is the personal contact. I took my English through long-distance education. I have to be honest with you, it was an absolute nightmare. I almost gave up. When I graduated, I graduated with two awards. One was given by the student council and the other was a highest-mark award. I was in the upper 80s, 90s all the time. I did the long-distance education English program. I have never been so disgusted with a system in my life and feel very bad for children who are 18, 19 years old. To accept the fate that system doles out is unbelievable. I know this is not the place to bring it up, but I have to bring it up because I am comparing it to actually going to a centre where you are taught hands-on, as opposed to being taught through long-distance education where you just have a piece of paper in front of you.

What it all boiled down to, unfortunately, was the fact that there just was not the personal contact there. I felt really confident with my marks. I never dreamt in a million years that someone would believe I had plagiarized anything, but I guess they had never had a student like myself go through there and did not realize I do very well at writing essays. It was all worked out. In the end, actually, I did get in touch with them. I am sorry if I am fumbling. I have been working with them because I see that system, they are playing with people's futures based on the fact that they do not know their students.

It is wonderful. It just means so much to me. It is really hard to actually, finally get up here and have my chance to have my say, to offer that to them. They need that. There are people who cannot go to an accredited centre and spend a whole year redoing their Grade 12, whether for financial reasons or whatever, and they need the long-distance, but somebody needs to seriously get in touch with the students themselves and ask what is wrong with the program, not take it from a professor's point of view or whoever it is who writes those.

I am by no means a dummy. I really reinforced that in the last year, and I feel very confident in asking that somebody please look into that because there is some serious remaking needs to be done. There is a huge waste of tax dollars there and I am a taxpayer. I can actually say that. I am not 18 years old or 17 and still in high school.

Going back to the adult education centre, I just want to tell you a story. When all this was over and done and I had my diploma, I actually did not graduate. I was graduation committee chairman, I put the grad on. I did not graduate with everybody else because there was such a problem with this English program for the long-distance education, but in the end I passed it. Everything was fine and I went in to pick up my diploma. They actually had a robe there for me and my hat and they led me into the lunchroom. They had their summer students all sitting in chairs in a circle and they gave me a ceremony there that day. You cannot just buy that. I needed it and I did not think that I did, but it meant something to me. So what will it mean to someone who does not have the support and the backing that I do?

I am just saying that I hope that you find your way to support the bill because it is direly needed. There are going to be, with all the layoffs and the way the economy is going, I am just the first one who is 40 years old, or I am not the first, but I am in maybe the first wave, but there are going to be many more. That is it. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Questions from the committee.

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Theresa. I think you have reinforced why the Brandon Adult Learning Centre is such a great place to learn. It is just a real privilege to hear three speakers in a row refer to an adult learning centre that is in my home constituency and one that I have a lot of value for.

You mentioned the dual credits, which is an initiative that our Government introduced a little over a year ago. Are you using that yourself in terms of your future now?

Ms. Stanick: Actually, I did not have the need for it.

Mr. Caldwell: You have seen others, though, of your colleagues, your fellow students, and you have views about this obviously that are pretty strong. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that point?

Ms. Stanick: Actually I can. Both my sons go to school at Crocus Plains High School in Brandon, one in the drafting program and the other one in the electronics. Both of them have dual credit programs and both of them are going on, one to the U of M and the other one to Red River community college.

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. We are just starting to hear some of the success stories around the dual credit. I really think that that is going to be one of the major educational legacies, so it is really a thrill for me to hear it working and I thank you for your remarks.

Ms. Stanick: Thank you very much.

Mr. Schuler: Theresa, the committee certainly does appreciate you coming all the way into Winnipeg to make your presentation. I think one of the things that education does is it builds and develops self-esteem. I think that is very important, even if you are not going to go on to university or you are going to go into other areas, but you have that Grade 12 certificate. It is important for an individual, for self-development.

We certainly appreciate the fact that you came forward and showed a lot of courage. Congratulations on your achievement and we hope that we hear more about your achievements as you move on. That was really brave to go back with 18-, 19- and 20-years-olds and sit and do your high school education. That speaks very highly of you.

Ms. Stanick: Thank you very much. I am honoured to be able to speak in front of you. I know you have a lot of people to listen to, and I really do appreciate it.

Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Thank you very much, Ms. Stanick. Just a quick question. Are you pursuing your nursing degree and program?

Ms. Stanick: Yes, I am, actually. I am taking the anatomy and physiology through ACC in Brandon because I could not get into Red River College until 2003, but I have worked with them.

I am actually one of the very first students that they have that they have been able to do the transfer of credits over from Assiniboine Community College to Red River community. I am also one of the first ones that they are allowing to do their practical in the second year at a location outside of Winnipeg.

An Honourable Member: Good luck to you.

Ms. Stanick: Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: No further questions. Thank you for your presentation Ms. Stanick.

I will next call Mr. Paul Jensen, private citizen. Mr. Jensen, do you have a written presentation for the committee?

Mr. Paul Jensen (Private Citizen): It is all from the heart.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, you may proceed when you are ready.

Mr. Jensen: Well, I came up here because I think this bill is a really important thing to move on to secure adult education in Manitoba.

You know, there are a lot of teachers down there that do not know if they are going to be working the next year or not, and from what I understand, this thing is going to secure funding. It is going to set out guidelines so there will not be any riffraff going on, and I am all for that. I think education is the key to success, not only for the citizens but as a province. You know, you have to educate your people. That is where I think it starts.

It is not an intelligence thing. Like what separates us? It is our education levels I think. Generally, in Manitoba, we are all intelligent people. So I would like to share with you my story. I should have graduated from Crocus Plains Regional Secondary in '98, with the rest of my friends, but unfortunately I got sick with a disease called ulcerative colitis and was unable to complete my Grade 12. You know, it is my fault that I set it up so I needed that last semester to get those last two credits in English and math, and when I got sick, well, too bad, right?

I made attempts to go back, and even being a year older than all the other people there that you went to school for a few years, it was just too hard, you could not cope with it. You know, you were not in a clique anymore. You were out. You did not make it. So I tried. I went back two times to Crocus Plains. After not succeeding the first two times, I opted to go down to the adult learning centre. I tried it out. It was good and it was working, but again my illness took me away from it and I was not able to complete it. So I took a year off, and I came back this past year and was able to do it and do it well.

* (19:10)

I give the credit to the teachers and the staff at an adult learning centre because it is not like going to a normal school. It is Mr. this, Mrs. that. They lord their education over you and make you feel small, and you do not feel encouraged like you do at the adult learning centre. Everyone is on a first-name basis there. At least that is the way they run it in Brandon. I do not know, you just feel pride when you go there and you are able to succeed. You know you are going to because there is nothing but encouragement. You miss a day, and they are calling you by your first name and saying what is going on? Is there a problem? What can we do to help? It is not like you miss school; if you miss another day, we are going to kick you out. It is a totally different way of thinking, and I think it is a very positive atmosphere, and that helps.

I think that is why there is such a success there, like 90 graduates. This year, 90 grads from our class. That is one adult learning centre, one year. How many across the province graduate every year? Instead of like say a thousand, we will just throw a thousand out there a year adults graduating after their so-called grad year. That is a thousand people moving forward in society, not creating a hindrance. You know what I mean? It just does not get any better than that education.

To not pass this bill and leave it up in the air, I would not think it would be a good idea because then it is like, well, there is no safety net. People fall through the net all the time and they do not actually ever get back because, as far as I can understand, these adult learning centres have not really been put out there and said look, these are good places. They are just as good as any high school, you know. It needs to be, I do not know, sort of set in stone so to speak. That is what I am looking for. We need it to-I do not know, recognition, sorry, I am just losing it a little bit here trying to think. It just needs to make sure it is there in the future, so people like me can come back four years after all my friends are finishing up university and continue on.

I am enrolled in BU this year, and I plan on continuing my education. I know a lot of my friends from the adult learning centre are doing the same thing.

There is no price on that really. I think secure funding and secure success in the province is maybe what I am trying to say. I just had to come here and say that today. Adult learning centres are a good thing, basically. They are not a hindrance at all. That is pretty much the main point I wanted to get across. Education, success, adult learning centres, they are all one and the same. Thanks.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Jensen. Questions from the committee.

Mr. Caldwell: Paul, thanks for coming out tonight. You know, four presentations from Brandon, I am just so proud to be the MLA for Brandon East and to share with you the same sort of vision for adult learning centres in this province, that they are second to none in Canada and that they provide opportunities, solid opportunities for lifelong learning. Thank you for coming out.

Could I ask you what you are taking at BU? I am sure I will see you around there, too.

Mr. Jensen: I plan on majoring in English and maybe minoring in drama or psychology or something like that. That is the main plan.

Mr. Caldwell: That is great. Thanks very much for coming, again, and all the best this coming school year. Thanks a lot.

Mr. Jensen: Thanks.

Mr. Schuler: Paul, thank you very much for coming out. You mentioned there were 90 grads, and I take it there are quite a few of them here tonight. It would have been a long evening if all 90 of you would have shown up. It certainly would have given us a lot to think about.

It takes a lot of courage to come out and speak in front of a committee like this. I think your case is one of those that is very important, and it is a story that has to be told because it is not about losing faith or losing hope. It is because of an illness. Often there is a death in the family or a tragedy in the family, and then a person gets lost for awhile or maybe just sort of that that is not where you are at that moment, and it is important then to go back and pick up your education.

So we certainly appreciate your coming forward and giving us that perspective as a committee. So thanks for coming in this evening.

Mr. Jensen: Just to respond to him, yes, he is right. Not everyone fits into the egg carton. We do not all fit that perfect shell. Some of us just do not walk that same line. We get off track somehow, and it is always nice if there is a place like an adult learning centre to, you know, buy your ticket and get back on.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? Thank you for your presentation, sir.

The next individual is Peter Wohlgemut who is from the Manitoba Teachers' Society speaking for Brian Ardern. Mr. Wohlgemut, do you have a written presentation?

Mr. Peter Wohlgemut (Manitoba Teachers' Society): Yes, I do.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you. Is that the correct pronunciation of your name?

Mr. Wohlgemut: Pretty close. Volgemute.

Mr. Chairperson: Volgemute.

Mr. Wohlgemut: Perfect.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, sir, you may proceed when you are ready.

* (19:20)

Mr. Wohlgemut: Thank you. My name is Peter Wohlgemut. I am a member of the provincial executive of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. For your information, I also am president of the Border Land Teachers' Association, one of the new divisions and associations, as well as teaching in a small school in the Border Land School Division.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to share my views on Bill 20, The Adult Learning Centres Act. I am here today representing the 14 000 public school teachers of Manitoba, including a significant number of teachers who work in adult learning centres throughout the province.

When the provincial government issued a consultation paper on adult learning centres in July of 2000, the Manitoba Teachers' Society had the opportunity to present our views on how adult education should be managed in this province. Everyone in this room, I believe, would agree that developing a culture of lifelong learning is important to the economy of Manitoba. In a knowledge-based society, those adults who do not finish high school find it increasingly difficult to obtain meaningful employment, and we have heard that already this evening.

Since 1997 when the Government first allowed enrolment of students over 21 years of age, the number of students in adult learning centres has climbed steadily. Providing learning opportunities for Manitobans is a key function of government. Manitobans have confidence that our public education system offers consistent, reliable programs that will open doors for them by providing them with skills and qualifications that are recognized and accepted throughout our province and throughout Canada. This is why adult learning centres are needed in our province and why this legislation is important to our members.

The Manitoba Teachers' Society strongly supports the place of adult education within the public education system. Adult learning centres emerged in Manitoba as a result of the transfer of training dollars from the federal government. Well before the provincial auditor's report on adult learning centres was released last fall, the Manitoba Teachers' Society asked the government of the day to develop policy and legislation for adult learning centres, especially with respect to accountability of the adult learning system. Unfortunately, lack of action led to problems like those that occurred in Morris-Macdonald School Division.

We are encouraged that the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) is now acting on all of the recommendations of the provincial auditor and has taken steps to bring order, quality and accountability to adult education in Manitoba.

The Manitoba Teachers' Society has long argued that one of the problems with adult education in this province was the way it was funded. In 1997, the phrase "adult learning centre" was introduced in the tally of eligible enrolment of school divisions in our province. As a result, the cost of adult education was downloaded to the kindergarten to Senior 4 public school system. The Manitoba Teachers' Society lobbied for a change to this method of allocating funds to the adult learning centres. That is why we are pleased that one of the first steps this Government took was to create a separate funding category for adult learning centres distinct from the entitlement for our K to Senior 4 schools.

We do however have three major interrelating concerns with the bill you have before you. First, regarding the definition of a teacher found therein; second, who the employer is; and thirdly, what is a school, according to this bill?

The adult education programs envisioned by this bill will provide learning opportunities that are part of the preparation for a high school diploma or part of the component credits of such a diploma. These programs must be designed to be coherent with the regular high school program so that these students receive a recognized diploma that qualifies them for entry into apprenticeship or employment programs or into post-secondary education.

The Manitoba Teachers' Society believes that credits towards a high school program must be taught by certified teachers who have background in the needs of adult learners.

Bill 20 proposes two definitions of teacher. The first reflects the familiar view that all Manitobans recognize: "A teacher holds a valid professional teaching certificate issued under The Education Administration Act."

The second part of the definition proposed by this bill extends the definition of teacher beyond what the public and the profession accept as a teacher. This person is to meet the requirements contained in the regulations issued under this act and is a person authorized by the minister to teach a course at a registered centre.

This second definition is unacceptable to the Manitoba Teachers' Society.

The public recognizes the word "teacher" as someone who has followed a course of study and received the necessary credentials to become a qualified teacher. To apply the word "teacher" to someone who does not have these qualifications will create confusion and add to the problems that already exist with adult learning centres.

We are confident that the public and the Manitoba Medical Association would object to any legislation that extended the definition of doctor to unqualified people. Manitoba teachers feel the same professional courtesy should be extended to them. The definition of teacher in Bill 20 must be clarified. We propose the following changes:

First, teacher means a person who holds a valid and subsisting Manitoba permanent professional teaching certificate issued under The Education Administration Act and subject to The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act, meets the qualifications and requirements in the regulations. Instructor means a person who meets the qualifications and requirements in the regulations and is authorized by the minister to deliver a course at a registered centre.

Our concerns with respect to the definition of teacher also apply to subsections 8(e) and (f) and section 20. Teachers and education directors must hold valid and subsisting Manitoba permanent professional teaching certificates.

Secondly, who is the employer? We believe that teachers must remain with a collective bargaining unit. Section 8 of the act is also unclear on who is the employer when there is a partnership with an educational institution. As I have already stated, the society believes all courses contributing to or leading to a high school diploma must be taught by fully qualified, certified teachers. When a school division employs teachers, those teachers must be covered by a collective agreement.

The same should apply when a school division establishes an adult learning centre or when there is a partnership with a school division where credits are granted towards a high school diploma. These teachers must be part of a teachers' collective bargaining unit attached to a school division. These teachers are already our members and they should continue to be members of the Manitoba Teachers' Society after this legislation is passed.

Thirdly, what is a school? A similar argument to that applied earlier applies to section 40 of Bill 20. This section affects the fundamental rights of our members. If a school division operates a registered centre, it must still be considered a school. Our members currently work in these adult learning centres and are currently covered by The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act. Section 40 strips our members of their fundamental rights as employees and must be removed.

The Adult Learning Centres Act is a first step towards correcting some of the problems that exist as a result of the lack of any legislative scheme governing these centres in Manitoba. It is only a first step, however. The bill before you today contains flaws that must be corrected. That is why we are seeking amendments to address our three major, interrelated concerns. These changes are necessary to avoid any further difficulties related to the operation of adult learning centres in this province. Thank you for the opportunity to raise these concerns with you.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Wohlgemut. Any questions for this presenter?

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Peter, for taking time out of your evening with your colleagues at the back of the room. I appreciate your remarks and I certainly appreciate your input on the definition of teacher and instructor and providing some clarity to our thinking about that. I expect we will have a discussion about that later on this evening, so thank you very much for those points.

Mr. Wohlgemut: Thank you, Minister, for those comments.

* (19:30)

Mr. Schuler: Thank you very much, Peter, for coming out this evening. There is a quote out of your speech that I think is very telling: "developing a culture of lifelong learning is important to the economy of Manitoba."

It is very important to all Manitobans. We certainly believe the adult learning centres are an integral part of that, as we have heard from first-hand experiences of individuals. For whatever reason, they did not finish their education and it is important to go back and do so.

We certainly appreciate your support for this, and we look forward to seeing what kind of amendments the Government plans on bringing forward later on. Thanks again, Peter.

Mr. Wohlgemut: That phrase actually I particularly enjoyed because the division I was part of, Rhineland School Division, which is now amalgamated, had that as part of its mission statement as well. I do believe it is a very important factor to have in there and to keep in mind. Lifelong learning is important and it affects all of us.

Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Wohlgemut, for your presentation. I want to focus on the section where you speak about the responsibility and the recognition of qualified teachers for adult learning centres.

Mr. Wohlgemut, I am wondering whether your society has had the opportunity to try to persuade the minister to incorporate your views with respect to certified teachers and ensure that the teachers of Manitoba do have an effective input into who is able to manage and teach within the classrooms of adult learning centres.

Mr. Wohlgemut: With the leave of the committee, I would prefer to refer that question to Mr. Art Reimer, our general secretary, who would have been involved in any such discussions.

Mr. Chairperson: Is there leave of the committee to have-Mr. Reimer is it? What is your first name, sir?

Mr. Art Reimer (Manitoba Teachers' Society): Art.

Mr. Chairperson: Art Reimer, is there leave? [Agreed] Proceed, sir.

Mr. Art Reimer: The brief answer is yes.

Mr. Derkach: You have had an opportunity to discuss the issue then. So have you had any response from the Government with respect to your concern?

Mr. Art Reimer: The discussions are actually in many ways ongoing. They are broad. The whole issue of supply of teachers generally within the school system these days, as many of our colleagues are retiring, so the whole issue of having sufficient numbers of qualified teachers in all of the schools in Manitoba is an issue we have had continual discussions with the minister and with the department on.

We would be very pleased if they were prepared to accept our recommendation as submitted in this brief.

Mr. Derkach: Thank you for that, Mr. Reimer. Has the Teachers' Society-now that you have identified the fact that there are going to be not necessarily shortages of teachers, but, indeed, there is going to be a continued demand for qualified teachers in the province-addressed this issue with the universities within the province and with the community colleges?

Mr. Art Reimer: Yes, there have been discussions with them from time to time. There have been discussions with all the universities and colleges together. At the moment, subject to not having too much raiding from other parts of the world, U.S. and other provinces, generally speaking, our universities and colleges are providing or will provide what is needed, although we anticipate there will be certain pressure points, as there already are in certain fields and certain communities. As a general rule, it appears the issue is being monitored and addressed, but it is subject to how much other jurisdictions are going to come into Manitoba and take our students.

Mr. Derkach: I think this is an important issue, not only for the adult learning centres but for education in general, because we as a province do not want to end up in the same situation in education as we have in health where there are shortages of professionals. That, in turn, creates all kinds of problems for not only service delivery, but, indeed, for the public in general.

I am encouraged about the fact that you are in communication and are monitoring the system. Of course, you, above all, have the first-hand information as to where the situation lies with respect to the supply of certified teachers in the province. So I thank you for that.

Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): My question is more with the training of teachers and whether the society has an opinion on this. Currently, there is early years, middle years and Senior 1 to 4 streams where teachers get training. There is not something where teachers get training in adult education. I was just wondering whether the Society has an opinion on the training and education of teachers and preparation for this area. So far right now only the college system seems to have certificates in adult education instruction.

Mr. Art Reimer: We believe it is very important that teachers in the adult learning centres are provided with instruction and training in working with adults, because that is different than working with younger children. It is a different type of relationship. We think that is very important and we encourage that wherever we can.

Mr. Rondeau: So far with the teachers that are teaching in these adult ed centres you have had good success and good feedback from them as far as their ability to teach a good curriculum, et cetera.

Mr. Art Reimer: There are always some problem points, but generally it is a very positive experience. We get a lot of very positive feedback from our teachers working in these adult learning centres.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, sir. No further questions? Thank you for your presentation.

I will next call Sylvia Provenski, Brandon Adult Learning Centre. Ms. Provenski, do you have a written presentation for the committee?

Ms. Sylvia Provenski (Brandon Adult Learning Centre): I do. I have brought some brochures from the Brandon Adult Learning Centre and some information regarding one of our programs which highlights the dual credits, which our honourable minister had mentioned earlier.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Thank you, and you may begin when you are ready.

Ms. Provenski: Good evening and thank you for giving us this opportunity to be able to voice our concerns and our opinions about the adult learning act. I am the last of the cohorts from Brandon, last but not least we hope, right.

My name is Sylvia Provenski and I am currently the interim manager of the Brandon Adult Learning Centre. As Minister Caldwell mentioned, Jeff Kerr has retired and I am filling in his position until a director of adult learning has been hired.

I just thought I would give a few minutes and a brief description in terms of what the Brandon Adult Learning Centre has to offer our community and this province in terms of adult education. At the adult learning centre, the Brandon Adult Learning Centre, we focus on the Senior 3 and 4 high school credits, which are the Grades 11 and 12. The majority of our students are coming for the mature student high school diploma, although we also have students who are coming to complete one or two credits from their regular high school diploma, as well as students who have already graduated who are coming back to do prerequisite courses for post-secondary. So it might be a biology or a chemistry or physics, depending on what they are going on to.

As you have heard from the students who preceded me, there are a variety of reasons that adults return to school. It is not always the fact they have stepped out of the education stream and are coming back in but also for other reasons in terms of wanting to increase their employment opportunities as well as increase their education.

I have passed around two handouts. The pink one is the information brochure that is handed out to students when they approach us and express an interest in the Brandon Adult Learning Centre. You will see in the centre where it lists course offerings that some of the course offerings have a star and a "c" beside them. Those are the dual credit courses we offer at the Brandon Adult Learning Centre. It is the college curriculum that we use to teach and the students are awarded both a college credit and a college transcript as well as a high school credit and a high school transcript.

* (19:40)

The second brochure I handed out, or the second leaflet, has to do with one of the specialty courses we offer. That is called the mature student high school diploma construction specialist. The advantage to the construction specialist is that it gives the student both a high school diploma at completion, plus it also gives them the entry level trades courses from Assiniboine Community College. So from there they have hands-on experience in terms of the trades and construction, carpentry and some of the other areas, and can go straight into the apprenticeship program at the college, or even have the skills to determine which area of trades they are interested in to continue their education in that sense.

The advantage of dual credits is that it increases the portability and accessibility for adult students. If they are stepping out of the workforce, they do not want to be out for a great length of time, so dual credits allow them to sort of speed up some of the education process. They can do the dual credits at the adult learning centre. Then when they move over to the college, they already have some of the entry

level courses out of the road. It can shorten their length of time at the college. It also increases their chances of success because they have more opportunity to actually work on the courses in the first year.

As you have listened to some of these students, many of our grads have been successful and have moved on to areas following post-secondary or directly into the workforce and are working as teachers, counsellors, business or office admin workers, nurses and in a variety of other areas.

There is an increased growth in adult education and an increased demand. We see on average 300 students that we interview who come forward to us expressing an interest in adult learning. We could probably see more than that. We are only limited by the number of staff hours in terms of the number of interviews that we can do with each of the students. In those 300, we see each of those students at least three times. So you can imagine the amount of time that is involved in an intake process in terms of making sure that the student is ready to enter the program and be successful.

We have many partnerships in the community. One of the most important partnerships that we have is with the literacy programs in the area. We work with the literacy programs in terms of providing an alternative. If we have some students coming in who may be strong in one area but weak in another, we work out a dual partnership where they actually will do some of their upgrading at the literacy program while still carrying on their education journey towards their mature student diploma with us. They also work at preparing students who are not ready yet to come into our program in building up their math and English computer skills before they come to us, increasing their chances of success. On average, 20 percent of our population are students who have moved from literacy to the adult learning centre, and many move on to post-secondary from there.

This resource is compromised as we know the literacy funding this year was flat-lined, and our fear is that that partnership may suffer because of that. It is a very important partnership for us.

Accountability in terms of The Adult Learning Centres Act is also very important, not only for the adult learning centres in the province but also for the adult learners themselves. As adult learning centres are seen as accountable and bona fide institutions, then so is the mature student diploma and the diplomas that are earned there. So it is very important for the students to know that the centre is legitimate and bona fide and recognized in legislation and within government policy.

The Brandon Adult Learning Centre is a division of Assiniboine Community College. Therefore we have always followed the recording policies and requirements that have been set out by the college. So we are definitely in support of any measures in terms of accountability, policies, requirements and so on.

As you have heard from the students, there are many reasons for stepping out of the educational stream. There are just as many for returning to the education centre, some of them social, some of them academic, some of them civil, and in the same sense, all those types of learning take place as well. So it is not just an academic institution. We also provide social education, civil education and workplace skills as well. So it is multipurpose and you certainly get your bang for your buck, if you want to think of it that way.

As Theresa Stanick mentioned, lifelong learning is a very important aspect in this province and across Canada. As someone mentioned earlier, early intervention is important, and I do not dispute that it is, but I think we also have to look at the fact that our youth cohort is dwindling and we need to look at the adult population and building up their education and skills so that they, too, can provide us with the skilled workforce that we need in the future. There are many adults who are eager to be able to have the opportunity to come back to school and build their skills.

I would like to thank you for proposing and making the changes to The Adult Learning Centres Act, and I encourage you to support this and to continue to support adult education in the province. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Provenski. Questions from the committee.

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Sylvia, for making the drive out. I again just want to reiterate how proud I am of the adult learning centre in Brandon and the work that you do. I wish you all the best in taking over the reins from Jeff Kerr and in your work.

I am interested in asking a little bit about the dual credits, because I quite agree with you that it is a pretty exciting option for students that has been made available through the dual-credit program. Do you have any idea roughly or notionally, or precisely if you have, in terms of the numbers of students who are taking advantage of that in Brandon and what sort of feedback you have received from them, and anecdotally is fine too.

Ms. Provenski: One hundred and eighty-six course registrations in terms of dual credit courses. That is a variety of courses. You can see from the listing that we offer a number of dual credit courses.

In terms of your second question, in terms of the success, the students are very pleased to be able to have the opportunity to do dual credits. It benefits them in the sense that while they are in sort of a more protective environment in the adult learning centre, it is not as large an educational institution as the college is or Brandon University. It gives them an opportunity to kind of dabble in post-secondary courses and be able to test their strengths and their skill levels, their ability to handle post-secondary. So we have found that it has been a very motivating factor in terms of students moving from the adult learning centre then to post-secondary.

Mr. Caldwell: I am really happy to hear those numbers and I am very pleased to hear the enthusiasm that students have for this. Do you have any relationship with other adult learning centres in the region or around the province in terms of sharing your experience and your expertise in this area? If you do, could you talk to us about that for a moment or two?

Ms. Provenski: Assiniboine Community College actually has been working with the Russell community and we will be opening this September a rural adult learning centre in our region. It will be in Russell. It will be the Russell Adult Learning Centre and, again, it will be a division of Assiniboine Community College.

We also are looking at some potential partnerships with some of the other adult learning centres in terms of sharing on-line courses. That would be with the evening programs where we have difficulty in terms of one teacher's providing, for instance, the science teacher teaches physics, chemistry and biology. If we can share that load with other teachers using the on-line method of delivery, then we may be looking at that for in the future.

Mr. Schuler: Thank you very much, Sylvia. Congratulations on you promotion. We appreciate very much your bringing some of your students out. I think it was important for the committee to actually hear first-hand. I guess I should say thank you for not bringing all 90 of them.

Being a very strong supporter of adult learning centres, I was the one who said as important as it is to have early intervention, it is also very important to offer programming for those individuals who dropped out for whatever reason. I think you just brought another angle to it and that is, as we become an aging society, and we do know that is taking place, that we also provide education for those who want to upgrade and maybe have a career change or whatever. I think that is the kind of service you provide. You provide, obviously, very well and congratulations.

* (19:50)

Ms. Provenski: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak. I appreciate it.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation.

Next presenter is Mr. Jerry Storie, Turtle Mountain School Division. Mr. Storie, do you have a written copy of your presentation for the committee?

Mr. Jerry Storie (Turtle Mountain School Division): Yes I do, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay. You may begin when ready.

Mr. Storie: Mr. Chair, I am here on behalf of Turtle Mountain School Division, on behalf of the staff of the adult learning centres in Turtle Mountain School Division and the many adult learners that have taken advantage of the centre's activities over the last few years. I will not be reading my remarks. The committee may regret that at some point, but as I made some notes and listened to the comments that came from some of the students of our adult learning centres, I ended up with more speaking notes than words, so that is not good news.

Mr. Chair, I want to begin by thanking the minister for bringing forward this legislation. This is important legislation for the province and important legislation for learners, adult learners in the province. I think it underlies I hope a commitment to the ongoing support of continuing education on the part of the Government.

I think everybody here understands that there needed to be some rules and regulations put in place. There were some unfortunate things that happened in the name of adult education that we will not dwell on. The bottom line is there are two important reasons that I think this legislation needed to come forward. One was the issue of accountability and a couple of people have addressed that. No one, and certainly not the adult learners in the province want to be a part of something that is not efficient and effective. So I think, point No. 1 is it needed to be done, probably should have been done earlier. I am not going to throw any stones on that account because I also think it is true that the development of adult education centres over the last eight or ten years has been very important. Sometimes when there is that entrepreneurial spirit things run amuck, but the fact is that a lot of good things have happened over the last 10 years in adult education too. This legislation I think puts us on the right track.

The second thing that the legislation does, and perhaps the most important thing it does, is bring some credibility, some certainty to adult education, and one of the students mentioned that they want to be a part of something that works, and something that is effective and produces results. I think the minister's continuing support of adult education, notwithstanding the problems, has been very positive. It has been positive for the people who were involved and enrolled in courses. It has been positive for the staff, the vast majority of whom were working exceptionally hard to make adult education work, so I think those two things have been very positive.

The third thing I think is important is that we have heard the kind of cliché, the slogan, lifelong learning; lifelong learning is no longer just a slogan. It is a reality and whether you are a teacher who is facing a new curriculum, whether you are an auto mechanic who is facing a new manual and new equipment and innovation with every new model, or whether you are a business person, who is trying to keep up with government forms and all the rest of it, the fact is that lifelong learning is a reality. Accessing that learning is much easier, depending on where you live in the province, and adult learning centres can be that bridge between the needs of people in smaller communities and northern communities and that need for lifelong learning.

I have been involved in adult education since 1994 directly. The Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) worked with me in developing adult education centres in Frontier, and I believe that most of the ones that were developed are still active. Someone said that adult education is different everywhere you go and that is true. That is why producing legislation that is going to be cookie-cutter legislation, one size fits all, is very difficult and I think quite dangerous. I am going to urge a little later that the legislation be interpreted as flexibly as possible, and that when the minister starts developing regulations, that the regulations allow a lot of flexibility. I know that that is going to cause some concern in some quarters, but the fact is that there is no one model that is going to work perfectly.

Two examples, if I may, Mr. Chair. Just briefly, in Frontier, when we created adult education centres there, most of the clients who came to the adult education centres were either already on income security social assistance of some form, or unemployment insurance. Those agencies had requirements that they attend schools. So attendance at adult learning centres in Frontier was never a problem, it was a requirement. We reported it monthly. The graduation rates were quite exceptional for adult learning centres, probably as high as 50 percent, and so that is one kind of example of the need that was out there.

The other part of that, in many of those smaller communities where education was not as highly valued, was the fact that you were creating a pool of people who needed adult education constantly. The graduation rates in high schools in many of our smaller northern communities would have been 20 percent or 15 percent, so there was a continuing pool of people who required a mature student diploma, high school graduation.

That is quite different from the experience in Turtle Mountain. In Turtle Mountain, there was a pool of people who had not graduated from high school. We found that once we started the centres, that pool was quickly exhausted. That is because the high school graduation rate is probably 98 percent.

So, really, what you are dealing with was an accumulation of need for high school graduation. So the centres in places like Killarney, Boissevain and Morris and many other places, the centres are going to have a different clientele. They are going to have a different need and different expectations from the clients who serve them. So I think that it is important to know that. So that is where I start from. I believe in adult education, I believe that these centres have the potential to support a lot of personal growth and development. I think they are also important economically and socially, and I will get into that in a minute.

In terms of the provisions of the bill, I am not going to spend a lot of time on the detail. I do have some concerns about the definitions and how those are crafted, courses, credits, program of studies. There are no typical adult learners. There is no specific set of skills that people need. They change. They are different from one community to another and the issue of a definition of a teacher. We have heard a couple of people comment on the issue of dual credits, and I commend the Government and the minister for going down that road. I think that that is a wonderful innovation. We have students in Turtle Mountain who are taking advantage of the dual credits and I think we are going to have to do some work, perhaps with the Manitoba Teachers' Society in making sure that that definition is acceptable, and that we can grant credits both ways with facilities. It is going to be fun to watch that develop, but I do not have any easy answers.

I guess the meat of the bill is in the Purpose of Registered Adult Learning Centres, part 1, clause 3. I guess that is where I have some concern about the language that is used to describe the purposes. It seems to me that it is quite limited. I would much rather see the language be positive, that adult learning centres are there to enable students to get high school diplomas, that it is there to encourage employment. The words "or other necessary prerequisites to pursue further education and employment opportunities," those words should be highlighted. I think they should be made more transparent. We are talking about offering people hope. We are talking about offering them a chance to build self-confidence, to become better people with a larger capacity for life and for contributing. It is not just about mature student graduation.

I think some people and I have a concern that the push for accountability is going to create a narrower and narrower focus where we are just talking about course completions and credits. We are not looking at maybe the bigger picture. That is a concern that the minister is going to have to deal with when he starts to work on the regulations, I think. That is something that I know the minister has heard before.

Registration of Centres: I do not have anything to comment on. Those seem appropriate. We want the centres to be registered properly and we want them to be accountable.

Operating Requirements, part 3: The only comment I have there is that whenever you create regulations requiring specific reporting, the smaller the centre with the smaller the staff, the more onerous those requirements are. It is fine if you have staff and you have an admin department that looks after it. But when it is all being done by one teacher or two teachers, it becomes onerous, and I encourage the Government to make sure that when the regulations are drafted, that the department creates the forms and makes them as simple as possible.

* (20:00)

Financial Management, part 4: The only question I had related to the clause on surpluses. The question was: Does a centre creating a surplus or managing itself into a surplus position mean that the funding is going to be reduced the next year? It seems to me that that is a recipe for making sure there are unplanned expenditures. I would urge some leniency there.

General Provisions: The minister, as ministers are wont to do, has given himself lots of leeway in the regulations, and I think that is a good thing. I know that because there are staff in place now, there is going to be much better monitoring of what goes on in the field. If additional regulations are needed, they will be created, and I think that is a good thing.

I guess, finally, what I wanted to talk about was the issue of access because I think this legislation has the potential to do for Manitoba, rural Manitoba, northern Manitoba, what the legislation in Saskatchewan did when they created the community college system. When I looked at the Government's funding announcement, I started doing a little check beside the communities. If you leave aside the three communities that already have a community college or universities, and they include Brandon, Winnipeg and The Pas, the satellite sites in Dauphin, the fact is there are 15 or 16 additional centres that are currently being funded, to some extent, through this legislation. Even if each of those centres remained as an adult learning centre for the foreseeable future, we would still have significantly fewer than Saskatchewan which has a much smaller population.

I see adult learning centres-and the term that was bandied about a couple of years ago was community learning centres rather than adult learning centres.

Mr. Chairperson: Two minutes, Mr. Storie.

Mr. Storie: Two minutes. So I think there is a potential for making these into something bigger and better.

I would like to urge the committee and urge the minister to consider this as an opportunity to begin to establish that kind of system. We have examples in out centres in Turtle Mountain of partnerships that work but are not supported by the current operating regime.

We have a partnership with Cisco Canada, and we are training seven or eight adults in our community, high-skill technical skills, exactly the same program that is being offered at Red River College, but we do not get any credit for it because it is not a credit course.

We have an arrangement with Campus Manitoba. We have opened our centres to Campus Manitoba, so in Killarney and Boissevain you can get a high school diploma in your own community.

The issue of access boils down to money. It costs probably $12,000, $15,000 per year for a student to come to Brandon or to Winnipeg to get an education.

These centres have the potential of turning that around. The dual credits can do it. Obviously distance education, what Campus Manitoba is doing can do it but also leaving centres to create partnerships that are not about high school credits can do it. So we have a potential there to I think create something good and positive and long lasting.

Mr. Chairman, one other item I would like to raise is about the differences between centres, and the Brandon Adult Learning Centre is perhaps a good example. It is in a community of 40 000. Finding a class of mature students who want to finish their high school is not that difficult in 40 000 people. In a community of 500 people, in Benito or in Minto or even in Killarney or Boissevain is more difficult.

That is true whether you are looking for a class that is going to provide education or courses for a mature student or it is true if you are trying to create a critical mass for Assiniboine Community College or for one of the universities to offer courses. The fact is that we probably can only get three or four students who want to take and need to take this kind of programming, so somehow we have to offer the programming in the community and these adult learning centres are doing that in lots of ways.

The ones in Turtle Mountain School Division are just an example. The Turtle Mountain School Division board has been extremely supportive of funding for continuing education, supportive of the programming and supportive of this legislation. We just hope that its potential actually is brought to fruition. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Storie. Questions?

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Jerry, for making the drive out. It is always for me a privilege to get advice from a former Minister of Education. Being the minister nowadays, I appreciate the advice that you have given me over the course of my tenure as a minister.

I have also in my visits to the adult learning centres in Boissevain and Killarney when I was out there with you last year I was very impressed at the skill. You are quite right. It is quite a different context than the Brandon Adult Learning Centre. I think your points that you make about balancing the quality and integrity of the educational program with the flexibility to allow for different learning environments is something that I certainly take to heart very deeply, so I appreciate those points.

I would like to touch just for a second on the dual credit. You mentioned them again. What is your experience in Turtle Mountain with the dual credits? Have you had much experience around that and, if you have or if you have not, what are your plans moving forward?

Mr. Storie: Mr. Chair, one student did complete a Spanish course from Brandon University last semester and I believe there are one or two students who are working on courses, so it is certainly small scale but the potential is there. I think it will work in the long run as people become more familiar with it and it becomes sort of part of the routine of registering for courses for high school students.

Mr. Schuler: Boy, you could barely tell that you were once an MLA. Two things you said I think that are very important to this whole debate are, No. 1, that we cannot make this into a cookie cutter system, because as the province is diverse so are the needs for adult education. I really appreciate in your opening statement the comment, opening the educational doors to these people, part-time learners, the unemployed and the underemployed is good educational economic policy. I agree with that full-heartedly and I think we all as a committee appreciate your comments.

I think both of those are important and as we sit during the evening and we start looking at the bill itself, we certainly will be looking at those comments. Thank you very much and it was nice hearing from you.

Mr. Storie: Thank you. I appreciate that and I appreciate the opportunity to speak as well.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Storie, there is one more question for you.

Mr. Enns: Good to see you, Jerry. Just one question. The committee was presented by the representative of the Teachers' Society about the concern in the bill with respect to the redefinition of the word "teacher." Do you share that concern?

* (20:10)

Mr. Storie: Mr. Chair, I can tell a question that is designed to get me into trouble. I will be blunt because I do not have the same sort of concerns about being blunt as I used to have. I do not share those concerns necessarily.

I think, obviously, having qualified teachers is extremely important when you are dealing with core subjects, when you are dealing with high school credits. I think you want to maintain the integrity of that system.

I think it is also true that we are half pregnant. We have a process now that is called advanced placement. We have an agreement with Assiniboine Community College where our high school students can take accounting courses and several other business practice courses and get credit at the community college, and we have a system where our high school students can take university courses from the high school and get credit. Those folks are not qualified teachers, and I think there is a certain amount of professional, well, turf protecting, to suggest that the staff at our universities or community colleges are not qualified to teach courses and provide credits.

That is something that the minister has to work out with the Manitoba Teachers' Society and that is going, I am sure, to be part of the dialogue as they discuss dual credits further. As it becomes more popular, it will become more of an issue.

Mr. Enns: Let me thank you for reconfirming my belief that there is a life after politics.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Storie, one more question. Mr. Derkach, this will be the last question. We are out of time.

Mr. Derkach: Jerry, how could I let you go without a question? First of all, thank you for coming to the committee and presenting. I was interested in your experiences as they relate to small communities and having only three or four students who might want to take the program. This is where, if we put too much emphasis on having certified teachers, teaching in a setting in a small community and adhering to a collective bargaining agreement makes it even more difficult for communities like Boissevain or Russell or whoever, who are under 1000 in population or perhaps under 5000 in population, to offer adult learning. If we become too rigid in those regards, we may not be able to offer adult learning because then it becomes impractical and unaffordable.

I would just like to know what your view is on how we can effectively deliver programs for students in small communities where you have only 3, 4 , 5 or less than 10 students in a classroom?

Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, clearly that is the $64,000 question if you come from a small community, or if you are an administrator of an institution for ACC or Brandon University or a school division. I think the answer, although it is probably second best, is distance education.

I mentioned that Campus Manitoba was a part of our site in Killarney and Boissevain. That is distance education. It is students taking university courses over the Internet. There are students taking high school courses over the Internet. So I think that the answer is to be a lot more creative when it comes to that kind of the use of technology, perhaps, is one answer, something that we are using, we are trying.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Derkach, briefly.

Mr. Derkach: Briefly, one other observation, Jerry. What I have noticed in small communities is that we have a number of very highly qualified teachers who are retiring now as the age of baby boomers is arriving and people are retiring from education. But these are very important resources in our small communities, and I have always advocated and still do, that these are people who can be very valuable and instrumental in providing, for example, adult learning courses.

They are not interested in full-time work. They are not interested in full-time salaries. They are certified. Their only, I think, wish is to contribute a little bit back to the community sometimes, have some of their expenses covered, and they would be happy to offer individual courses for adult learning centres.

I am wondering if your organization, through the superintendents' association, has looked at the utilization of retired teachers for adult learning centres.

Mr. Storie: Quite honestly, no. I do not believe that has been discussed at this point. Obviously, there are alternatives. There always are. With the support of the legislation, and the Government through regulation, who knows what is possible?

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, sir. That concludes the out-of-town presenters.

Now I will call on Paulette Lavergne, UFCW Adult Learning Centre. Ms. Lavergne, do you have a written copy of your presentation for the committee?

Ms. Paulette Lavergne (UFCW Adult Learning Centre): Yes, I do.

Mr. Chairperson: You may proceed when you are ready.

Ms. Paulette Lavergne: Okay, thank you. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I am afraid I am not a politician. Mine is rather short and sweet.

I am here today to represent my adult learning education centre which is the United Food and Commercial Workers Training Centre. I have been attending adult ed for two years and have a renewed confidence that I can fulfill what I thought were lost aspirations. By having an adult education centre available and feasible, I now have a Grade 12 education and know that I can reach my goals. I was once a teenage mother and never dreamed that I would have another opportunity to receive a quality education.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am grateful to have this opportunity to express myself to you and know that I am only one of many who have a renewed vision that opportunities can be endless and are there to seize if one so desires.

I believe Bill 20 is very important for the people of Manitoba. I believe educated people build strong economies and endless opportunities for growth and stability. I believe the Province of Manitoba will be rewarding itself by passing Bill 20. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Lavergne. Questions?

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Paulette, for coming. I know I have visited your adult learning centre on Portage Avenue a number of times. Graham Dowdell and the UFCW do a tremendous job with a first-rate facility.

I wonder if I might ask you what caused you to leave school and what caused you to come back, how long were you away for, just to give us a little bit more of a personal flavour of your experience.

Ms. Paulette Lavergne: I did go to high school and I finished Grade 12 without graduating. I was short two credits for the actual graduation. I went on to Red River College and pursued a career in the hospitality department. It always sort of egged on me that I wanted more. I have been in the business for 20 years. Two years ago I thought: Well, you know what, it is never too late.

There are a lot of other interests that I have in life, so I am pursuing them, basically in the science area.

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you for sharing that with us. Please take my best wishes back to the United Food and Commercial Workers Adult Learning Centre. Thanks.

Mr. Schuler: Thank you very much, Paulette, for your presentation. Again, there are a lot of different adult learning centres. The previous speaker spoke about not having a cookie-cutter approach to it, because each one does present itself to a different clientele. I think that is very important because different people come from different walks of life.

Again, we have sort of heard this. I just want to pick one part out of your presentation: "educated people build strong economies and endless opportunities for growth and stability."

I think that is very important that, obviously, we want a stable province. For not being a politician, you certainly gave a really good presentation. We appreciate that very much. Thank you.

* (20:20)

Mr. Struthers: Ms. Lavergne, I was struck by what you have said here about what you thought were your lost aspirations. What are your aspirations?

Ms. Paulette Lavergne: I would like to pursue a degree in the sciences, in environmental studies perhaps. I do come from the country and I am certainly interested in the boreal forest and the hog business as far as I am concerned and the effects on our economy.

Mr. Chairperson: No further questions? Thank you for your presentation.

The next individual is Nasheba Dejesus. Is that the correct pronunciation of your name?

Ms. Nasheba Dejesus (Private Citizen): Yes, it is. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairperson: That was a really good guess on my part. Okay, do you have a written copy of your brief?

Ms. Dejesus: No, sir, I do not.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, you may proceed when ready then.

Ms. Dejesus: Good evening, honourable minister and board of the committee. I am really nervous.

I would like to tell you a little bit about myself. I came to Canada in the 1960s with my parents from South Africa. My father was a teacher also here in Winnipeg. I was brought up around the education system, with my father being in it, and also the other South Africans who came at that time.

I wish I could say I fell and went completely with the educational system and graduated with honours. That did not happen. I really wanted to finish high school, but I only got up to completing my Grade 9. I left school. I knew I needed an education. I needed to do something. In those days, I knew I had to get my education but I did not want to go through the system because I could not keep up with it. It was very, very fast for me. I did not fit into the mold. Even though my father was a teacher, I still could not do it. I, myself, always wanted to be a phys ed teacher and follow in my father's footsteps. I really did not think I could do it academically.

I went to hairdressing school and I made do with what I had. I went through school, had a little business of my own and got married. Then I got sick. I have acute rheumatoid arthritis and so I could no longer work. For a long time-I have it in all of my joints-I lay in bed and I thought about it a lot, about my children, the education system, where my children were going to go from here. What about me? I am too old. I cannot do it. I could not do it then. I will not be able to do it now. I really thought there was no hope for me.

I went to UFCW. I kind of just poked my nose around and asked a couple of questions and things like that. There is not a lot of information out there about adult education and the facilities that are out there. I started and I took a couple of courses. I just tried. With their encouragement and with their support, I am happy to say I am in my second year of university in the education field.

I am now going through an adult education program called WEC. This post-secondary education system has made it possible for us to be able to be parents, to be good parents, to be able to study and to be dedicated to our studies. UFCW and WEC, the Winnipeg Education Centre, needs more support from the Government to have counsellors available and give them the support back that they so much give to so many of us.

When I started at WEC, I was so afraid, but if UFCW could get me as far as where they let me off at the door of WEC I knew this system is here for me. The adult education system, I am going to call it a system because I do not know where there are others. I was listening to Brandon education system and a light bulb went off in my head. I thought, this is wonderful. There are others out there.

There is really not a lot of information and there are probably hundreds and thousands of other people at my age who can really give back to the community, who have worked in factories and believed they could not achieve or be academically inclined. So I just want to say, for the support in these centres for counselling and direction, different ways, different avenues that we can take, would be greatly appreciated.

I just passed this last summer a course taking history of education, and I was really amazed to see how education progressed from the 18th century up until now. We can really, really say that adult education is part of history too. It is now also very important to take notice, because our children who are not making it, our youth at risk that are not making it, they need a place to go. They need a place to grow.

I thank you for your time.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Questions?

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Nasheba, for sharing your story with us. As I said to Paulette earlier, the United Food and Commercial Workers Adult Learning Centre on Portage Avenue is one of the finest in the province. It is a real privilege to hear success stories such as yours and to hear your personal recollections. I am just thrilled to hear that you are going into education. It is a great career and I wish you all the very best. Thank you very much.

Ms. Dejesus: Thank you very much.

Mr. Schuler: Nasheba, what you talked a lot about is having belief in oneself, and I think that is very important. You have to believe. Once you believe that you can do these things, that you can go back and get your Grade 12 and move through, it is actually getting over that feeling that you cannot actually do it when, in fact, everybody can, and I think that is important.

You mentioned how there is not a lot of information out there. Unfortunately, it seems to be when something does very well it gets no coverage, but when it stumbles that is when it gets a lot of coverage. There has a lot of negative publicity about adult learning centres and it has been referenced. It is unfortunate that when it gets coverage it is on the negative.

So thank you for coming out and giving the positive. I just wish there would be as much media out for the positive as there is for the negative, because I think your story and the other stories are good news Manitoba stories. Thank you for coming out.

* (20:30)

Ms. Desjesus: Thank you very much for taking the time to listen to me and to others like me. I think that adult education is going to be a new road in education, especially with the dealings with education with the teachers and so on and so forth.

There is a difference between teaching children and teaching youth and teaching adults. Growing up young in the school system and also having children, as a mother and going through the school system and seeing how that has happened, I can actually say to my son: Do not worry, there are things out there, you will not fall on your face, you will be a success some day, and you do not have to be a success at the age of 17. You can be a success at the age of 21, 45, 50. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: No further questions? Thank you for your presentation.

The next person on the list is Doug Harry, Private Citizen. Is Mr. Harry here this evening? His name will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

The next person is Karen Russell, Private Citizen. Is Karen here this evening? Her name will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

The next person is Don Smith, Aboriginal Community Campus. Is Mr. Smith here this evening? His name will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

The next person is Bill Franklin, Private Citizen. Is Mr. Franklin here? His name will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

The next person is Shaina Kipling, Private Citizen. Ms. Kipling will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

The next person is Lloyd Williams, Private Citizen. Is Mr. Williams here? His name will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

The next person is Violet Bradburn, Private Citizen. Is Violet here? Violet will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

I have one more person who has registered to speak. Her name is Christin Lavergne. Ms. Lavergne, do you have a written presentation?

Ms. Christin Lavergne (Private Citizen): No.

Mr. Chairperson: You may proceed when you are ready.

Ms. Christin Lavergne: You have heard from a lot of people who have graduated from these programs. I do not have a Grade 12 education, and these schools are actually my only hope to get a Grade 12 education because there is no way I would return to a regular public school. That is really all I have.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you. Questions from the committee?

Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Christin, for speaking to us, however briefly. If I might, are you attending an adult learning centre now?

Ms. Christin Lavergne: At the moment, I am preoccupied with my daughter. I was taking an accounting course at an ETEC in Ste. Anne, but due to an early arrival I had to stop that for now.

Mr. Caldwell: Well, I thank you for your comments and informing us that the adult learning centres are going to be an important part of your future in terms of continuing your education. I wish you all the best both with your child and when you go back to school.

Mr. Schuler: Thank you very much for having the courage to come forward. We certainly do appreciate hearing the voice of a small child. Many of us have small children at home, and although we cannot be there with them, it is nice to hear a little baby.Thanks for your patience for sitting through all of this waiting for your opportunity.

Yes, it is important that when the time comes for you to go back that we do have adult learning centres. Certainly, we encourage you very much to finish the course that you were taking. I am certain you have heard the presentations. It is well worth it, and we commend you for coming forward.

Ms. Christin Lavergne: Thanks.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? Thank you for your presentation.

That completes the list. I will now call the names of the people who have been dropped to the bottom of the list for the second and final time: Doug Harry, private citizen. Mr. Harry will be dropped from the list; Karen Russell, private citizen. Ms. Russell will be dropped from the list; Don Smith, Aboriginal Community Campus. Mr. Smith will be dropped from the list; Bill Franklin, Private Citizen. Mr. Franklin will be dropped from the list; Shaina Kipling, private citizen. Ms. Kipling will be dropped from the list; Lloyd Williams, private citizen. Mr. Williams will be dropped from the list; Violet Bradburn, private citizen. Ms. Bradburn will be dropped from the list. That concludes the list of presenters I have before me.

Are there any other persons in attendance who wish to make a presentation? Hearing none, is it the will of the committee to proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of the bill? [Agreed]

Does the minister responsible for Bill 20 have an opening statement?

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, I just have a few remarks. I should begin by saying how tremendously impressed I was by the presentations made to the committee tonight.

I think all of us had an opportunity to learn something about adult learning centres in the province and their importance in making positive impacts on Manitobans. The stories that we heard this evening, the personal stories that were related to us by the presenters certainly made an impact upon me. I just am very much humbled by the presentations that we heard tonight and feel very proud to be part of a government that is taking a leadership role in creating a system of adult learning centres in this province that is going to be second to none in Canada; in fact, will be a leader in Canada in terms of adult learning centres.

So, Mr. Chair, that is all I really have to say this evening. It has just been a real privilege to be present this evening to hear the presentations made to us.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the critic from the Official Opposition have an opening statement?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I want to join the minister this evening to compliment the presenters who came forward to share with us their stories and tell us as legislators what it means for someone who has gone through the adult education system or program to be able to get on with life and to contribute to society in the way that we heard this evening.

So, Mr. Chair, I want to say that I would encourage the minister to continue to do whatever we can to enhance adult education learning in the province of Manitoba. On a personal note, I have to say that as a former educator I cannot help but think that every single time we add an adult education centre to any community in our province, provide flexibility, provide an opportunity for independent learning that is required, allow for dual credits, as has been done through the Adult Education Centre, and provide every opportunity that we can for an individual to gain not only self esteem but to be able to gain the skills necessary to contribute positively to society. I think that we as legislators need to encourage and need to do everything we can in that respect.

So having said that, Mr. Chair, I look forward to going through the bill clause by clause. I do not know whether the minister has any amendments and whether or not he has been able to discuss those with our critic for Education, the member from Minnedosa, but indeed we look forward to working in a positive way to ensure that we enhance the scope of learning in the province. We have gone through a rough time in adult learning in Manitoba in the last year and a half or so, and we need to put that behind us and get on with the task of focussing on the people who really need the help, and that is the adult learners in the province of Manitoba.

* (20:40)

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the member. During the consideration of a bill, the table of contents, the enacting clause and the title are postponed until all other clauses have been considered in their proper order. Also, if there is agreement from the committee, the Chair will call clauses in blocks that conform to pages, with the understanding that we will stop at any particular clause or clauses where members may have comments, questions, or amendments to propose. Is that agreed? [Agreed]

Shall clause 1 pass?

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, I move

"instructor" means a person who meets the qualifications and requirements in the regulations and is authorized by the minister to teach a course at a registered centre; ("instructeur")

"teacher" means a person who holds a valid and subsisting Manitoba permanent professional teaching certificate issued under The Education Administration Act, and subject to The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act, meets the qualifications and requirements in the regulations; ("enseignant")

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is in order.

Mr. Caldwell: This amendment is in reference to the concern that teachers be duly recognized as the individual who has authority to instruct under The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act, while also respecting that instructors have the ability to teach college level courses, university courses and so forth. It provides for clarity between the two categories.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, the minister, in his anecdotal comments seems to narrow the definition or the area that an instructor may operate in. To me the definition, as he has presented it, simply says that an instructor meets the qualifications and requirements in the regulations and is authorized by the minister to teach a course at a registered centre. It does not prescribe that course being a community college course or post secondary course. I would take that the definition then would allow for an instructor to teach S1-S4 program as well.

Mr. Caldwell: It is not our intention to have anybody but a certified teacher teaching S4 courses or any other high school courses or public school courses in the adult learning centres in terms of the instructor and their ability to teach college or university courses that will be delineated in regulation.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, we heard from Mr. Storie this evening, who is a superintendent in a small community where it is sometimes impossible to have a qualified teacher teach programs for three or four students.

In those instances, an instructor who is authorized by the minister may be the only way to go. Is the minister, in the regulation, contemplating providing that flexibility for communities who cannot afford or it is just impractical to have a certified teacher teach, then be able to use an instructor who may not be less qualified but who may have been trained in a post-secondary area as well and then could teach both the post-secondary and the public school program?

Mr. Caldwell: That is where the advantages, I suppose, of the dual credit comes into play. Instructors will be able to teach courses that can be utilized for dual credits to assist students in achieving their high school diploma. However, teachers will be the qualified category for teaching high school credits specifically.

The reference was made to S4 courses, but the instructor will have the ability, through the dual credit system to enable students to have that flexibility in using courses for both high school credentialling and university or community college credentialling.

Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable Mr. Caldwell that section 1 be amended (a) by adding the following-

An Honourable Member: Dispense.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to adopt the motion. [Agreed]

The amendment is accordingly adopted. Clause 1 as amended-pass; clauses 2(1) and 2(2) -pass; clause 3-pass; clauses 4(1) to 5-pass; clauses 6 to 7(2)-pass; clause 7(3)-pass.

Shall clauses 8(1) and 8(2) pass?

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, what an enthusiastic group we have around committee tonight. I move

(a) in clause (e), by adding "or instructor" after "teacher"; and

(b) in clause (f), by adding "or instructors" after "teachers".

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is in order. Would anybody like to speak on the motion? No.

Amendment-pass; clause 8(1) as amended-pass. Shall Clause 8(2) pass?

Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair, I am moving the amendments to provide consistency throughout the act here. I move

THAT subclause 8(2)(a)(i) be amended by striking out "and teachers" and substituting ", and teachers and instructors".

* (20:50)

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is in order. Would anyone like to speak on the motion?

Some Honourable Members: Pass.

Mr. Chairperson: Amendment-pass; clause 8(2) as amended-pass; clauses 9(1) to 10(1)-pass; clauses 10(2) to 13(1)-pass; clauses 13(2) to 16(2)-pass; clauses 16(3) to 16(7)-pass; clauses 17 to 19-pass; clauses 20 to 22-pass; clauses 23 to 26-pass; clauses 27 to 31-pass; clause 32-pass; clauses 33(1) to 33(3)-pass; clauses 33(4) to 34-pass.

Shall clauses 35 and 36 pass?

Mr. Caldwell: I have an amendment for clause 36, so if we want to pass clause 35, we can.

Mr. Chairperson: Clause 35-pass.

Shall clause 36 pass?

Mr. Caldwell: I move

THAT clause 36(f) be amended by striking out "and teachers" and substituting ", teachers and instructors".

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is in order. Would anybody like to speak to the amendment?

It has been moved by the honourable Mr. Caldwell-

Some Honourable Members: Dispense.

Mr. Chairperson: Dispense.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the amendment? [Agreed]

Clause 36 as amended-pass.

Shall clauses 37(1) to 40 pass?

Mr. Caldwell: I do have an amendment in section 38. If we could move through 37, I am prepared to move an amendment.

Mr. Chairperson: Clauses 37(1) and 37(2)-pass.

Shall 38 pass?

Mr. Caldwell: I move

THAT section 38 of the French version be amended by adding "ou des reglèments" at the end.

Mr. Chairperson: The amendment is in order. It has been moved by the honourable Mr. Caldwell-

Some Honourable Members: Dispense.

Mr. Chairperson: Dispense.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the amendment?

Some Honourable Members: Yes.

An Honourable Member: No.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, let me just say that I would like the minister to explain to us the amendment and this section.

Mr. Caldwell: It provides symmetry in the bill. In the English version section 38(b) talks about "Act or the regulations." Indeed, that is what we are doing in the French version, adding the "ou des règlements."

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I was asking the minister to explain section 38 of the act.

Mr. Caldwell: It is to prevent a lawsuit to be brought against the minister, the registrar or any person acting in authority under the act who are engaged in the administration of the act in undertaking their obligations in good faith.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the minister whether this is a standard clause taken from other acts as it is incorporated in this act.

Mr. Caldwell: Indeed, it is symmetrical with other acts.

Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable Minister Caldwell-

Some Honourable Members: Dispense.

Mr. Chairperson: Dispense.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the amendment. [Agreed]

Clause 38 as amended-pass; clauses 39 and 40-pass; clauses 41 to 45-pass; table of contents-pass; enacting clause-pass; title-pass. Bill as amended be reported.

That concludes the business before the committee. Committee rise.

COMMITTEE ROSE AT: 8:58 p.m.

Re: Bill 20

The Border Land Division appreciates the opportunity to respond to Bill 20. Our division has developed an effective alternative approach to secondary education for adults in our community and would like to share the following observations with respect to 'adult learning centres.'

1) The success of this alternative approach is that it responds to individual learner needs and it is technology-based. In doing so, our centre not only links credits to high school graduation and post-secondary/career options but also to new and/or enhanced employment opportunities in our local community. For a large part of our young adult learners, the latter is an important factor in their motivation to return to school. In order to assist with this objective, the alternative classroom is formally liked with community partners. The community partners encourage their employees to work toward high school completion and also enhance their technical skills.

In our opinion, Bill 20 does not clearly recognize that alternative classrooms must be technology-based for it to be linked to employment opportunities. Without the link to current technology, the learning experience is not very relevant for many adults. Furthermore, the technology makes it possible for our instructors to create individual plans for all of the students and also to monitor individual student progress. In our centre, we are using the 'Odessy' software to accomplish this task.

2) We find that for an increasing number of our young adults the addition of on-site child care makes it possible for these students to resume their high school program. For this reason we have provided on-site child care. We are attempting to do this on a cost-recovery basis.

Bill 20 does not address this concern, and

we suggest this need should be co-ordinated with other governmental departments.

3) For the last two years, the funding for learning centres is determined on an annual basis. Previously, funding was based on actual enrolment. Since our centre has been operating for five years and is technology-based, we are concerned that we will not be able to sustain our program if the support for technology upgrades is not supported. In assessing the needs of our centre, we conclude that a longer commitment is required, so that questions relating to facility maintenance, teaching resources, teaching assignments (contracts) and related technology upgrades can be considered in the planning. It is impossible to do this if funding is on an annual and ad hoc basis. In addition, it is difficult for the staff to remain committed to the program if their assignments are clouded with uncertainty.

Bill 20 seems to fund centres on an annual basis.

4) The division recognizes the importance of accountability with respect to resources designated for the alternative classroom and also monitors and actively pursues best practices for the delivery of educational services. To this end, we have developed procedures and data collection instruments to account for financial and program effectiveness.

Bill 20 appears to disregard the question of accountability with respect to best practices in the delivery of educational programs.

In closing, the alternative education centre is a highly valued community resource to deal with adults and their learning needs. It provides them with career, post-secondary options and local employment opportunities. We believe that it also creates a belief that learning is its own reward and that learning is lifelong. We trust that our experience with learning centres can be used to give further direction and guidance to Bill 20.

Don Wiebe

Bill 20

The Winnipeg School Division appreciates the opportunity to provide comments on Bill 20, the proposed legislation on Adult Learning Centres.

The division has had a long history of providing excellent educational services for adult students. Educational services are provided for these students in both a regular high school setting and at the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre.

The Winnipeg Adult Education Centre has operated since 1966 as a separate educational facility assigned to provide the opportunity for adults mainly from the core area, to upgrade their skills and achieve their high school diploma. Although the centre began as a relatively small program, for the past 20 years there have been over 1000 students enrolled per semester in preparatory and Senior 4 classes.

The Winnipeg Adult Education program is highly respected by colleges, universities and post secondary programs in Manitoba. The graduates of the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre have been very successful in achieving their goals and successfully competing with regular high school students for scholarships and awards. During the period 1996/97 - 1999/2000, 400 students graduated from the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre with 28 of these graduates receiving entrance scholarships to the Universities of Manitoba or Winnipeg. During the three-year period, 1996/97 to 1998/99, 73 Winnipeg Adult Education Centre students graduated from the University of Manitoba. Although the Division has been unable to obtain similar statistics from other post-secondary institutions, based on the previous experience, it is likely that the numbers are comparable.

Since its inception, in accordance with an agreement with the Government of the day, the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre has been funded like any other school in the Division. The Division has included the students at the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre in the regular student count on a full-time equivalent basis in accordance with the regulations for enrolment reporting as established by the Department of Education, Training and Youth.

The Winnipeg Adult Education Centre offers a complete range of Senior 4 courses as authorized by Manitoba Education, as well as preparatory courses at the Senior 1, 2 and 3 levels for students who lack the educational background to enrol in the Senior 4 courses directly. The Winnipeg Adult Education Centre offers courses in English, mathematics, science, social studies and business education which follow the curriculum developed by Manitoba Education. Students in these courses participate in the provincial Sstandards examinations, and the adult centre was a pilot school for the provincial Consumer Math Program. In addition, English-as-a-Second-Language preparatory courses are provided which facilitate students achieving a Senior 4 credit (English 40E). Students may take full, part-time, and/or combined programs depending on their individual needs and circumstances. Classes are offered during the day. All courses are taught by duly certified teachers who are members of the Winnipeg Teachers Association. There are 40 full-time equivalent instructional staff assigned to the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre. The total operating costs for this school site are approximately $3.3 million.

The Basic Education program which is also offered by the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre assists students to attain functional literacy by providing development of basic skills in reading and mathematics for adults who are illiterate.

Students attending the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre range in age from 17 to 69, with the majority being single parents. Approximately 88 percent of the student population resides within the Division boundaries with 28 percent within walking distance of the school. Tuition fees are charged to non-resident students. Approximately 60 percent of the student population is Aboriginal.

Given the strong correlation between increased education, employment opportunity and average income, adult education can have a significant impact on the reduction of unemployment, an increase in self-sufficiency, breaking cycles of poverty and providing positive role models for the next generation.

The Board of Trustees of the Winnipeg School Division feels strongly that the adult students attending day school with the goal of achieving a graduation diploma are entitled to quality educational programs within the public school system. We are hopeful that the programs offered at the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre will not be regarded as adult learning centres, as defined under proposed legislation. Subjecting these valuable programs that have been part of the public school system for many years to an application and adjudication process that may place the continuity and success of the programs in jeopardy is, to us, not appropriate.

As part of the Winnipeg School Division, the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre is able to obtain teachers who have worked within the regular system and have demonstrated exemplary teaching in a high school setting. When they come to teach at the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre, they continue to benefit from the vast professional development opportunities, educational study leaves, department head committees, curriculum development teams, and district initiatives. There are rich opportunities within the division to grow professionally, to work in a variety of settings and to gain experience with diverse populations. The school benefits from divisional consultant support in curriculum, technology, library media services, Aboriginal education and special education.

Additional funding each year is supported through the Winnipeg School Division tax base. As indicated to the minister during a previous meeting on this topic, 46.5 percent of the operating costs for the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre are funded through the special levy. Attached is the analysis of revenue and expenditures for the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre for the 2002/2003 school year as well as the revenue and expenditures for the 2001/2002 school year.

Having assisted the Province by assuming the responsibility for four adult learning centre sites as of December 1, 2001, the trustees can appreciate the need for legislation and regulations to ensure that all such centres operate within the same parameters.

We have submitted and have received funding for the 2002/2003 school year for two adult learning centres and feel that the structure and purpose of these centres fall appropriately within the intent of the proposed legislation. We do not believe that the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre falls in the same category.

In addition to our concern for the ongoing operation of the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre, we have identified some specific concerns about Bill 20 for your consideration:

1. Stand-alone centres operated by not-for-profit corporations, et cetera.

(b) it can demonstrate that

The division is concerned about who would be responsible to ensure that a not-for-profit corporation is credible as an educational institution and is capable of meeting the standards and requirements under the act.

We are also concerned that this provision appears to allow a person other than a principal to grant credits for high school courses. It would be important in order to maintain consistency in the granting of credits that this function is closely monitored.

2. General Requirements for registration

With regard to 8(e) (f), criteria needs to be clearly established to ensure that the director is not only a teacher but someone with a demonstrated understanding of adult learning, strategies, knowledge of high school curricula, successful administration and leadership experience. The present wording would indicate any teacher who holds a teaching certificate is deemed appropriate to become an educational directory of an adult learning centre.

3. Term of registration

9(3) The term of a registration under this act is for one program year or part of a program year, and expires on June 30.

At what point does an adult learning centre become viable rather than a temporary institution. Planning on a year-by year basis creates instability in leases, hiring practises, and program continuity. There should be provision for multi-year funding for those centres that have demonstrated that they can operate successful programs.

4. Effect of registration

11 Once registered, a registered centre may:

Based on the experience of school divisions involved with previous adult learning centres, it is important that department staff be assigned to monitor that curricula are being followed to ensure that the learner is getting the proper content and to ensure that appropriate assessment processes are in place for both students and staff. The process for granting and reporting credits to the Province also needs to be monitored particularly if there is no educational partner involved.

5. Funding and Financial Management

At the present time the Winnipeg School Division has submitted an application and received approval to operate two adult learning centres under the existing regulations. The information outlined in this section of the proposed legislation has been provided in accordance with the existing application process.

As previously indicated the level of funding to the Winnipeg Adult Centre provided by the Education Support Program and the special levy is significantly higher than would be provided if the school was funded as an ALC. If it is the intention of the department to include the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre under this proposed legislation, the Winnipeg School Division would be required to close it as it presently exists and completely restructure and re-staff it as an adult learning centre within the level of funding provided. This has the potential to seriously erode the current level of programming provided to adults.

The information as requested in this section of the legislation may not be appropriate for the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre as the furnishings, equipment, teaching materials are the property of the Winnpeg School Division and the level of administrative support is in accordance with the Collective Agreement with the Winnipeg Teachers' Association.

6. Relationship to Public Schools Act and Educational Administration Act

As indicated previously, the Winnipeg School Division believes that the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre is an integral part of the educational services offered to our communities. We believe that it is a "school" in every sense. It is incorporated into the collective agreement with the Winnipeg Teachers' Association for both its program and administrative structure. Transfers of staff are facilitated between and amongst the other secondary schools in the division.

The Winnipeg Adult Education Centre has been recognized by the Public School Finance Board as a "school." Funding has been approved for a significant renovation and addition to accommodate the continuing increase in student enrolment.

The Winnipeg School Division appreciates the need for clear legislation concerning the operation of adult learning centres, and we hope that our comments will assist in strengthening the provision of educational services to adults.

We would also like to emphasize our belief that the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre should not be included under this proposed legislation and should continue to operate as a high school facility that has successfully provided educational services for adults for the past 35 years.

Thank you for your consideration of our comments regarding Bill 20, The Adult Learning Centres Act.