Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Government Services. As had been previously agreed, questioning for the department will follow in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning has been completed. The floor is now open for questions.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): The other day when we were in Estimates, I asked the minister several questions, basically, requests for information. He provided me with a list, in a very timely manner I might point out, of government leases. In addition, though, he had promised to get us information on the rollout plan as it relates to the desktop system. There were some other requests that were made.

I know that staff usually make notes while they are here and review Hansard afterwards. So I am assuming that they have the information that was requested. Perhaps we could, for the next hour anyway, discuss this matter a little further and try to get a better idea as to what the total costs of this project are.

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Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): I just would like to clarify with the member if the intention is–I know the committee is set to rise at four–to continue to four o'clock on the area of Desktop, in which case a number of my staff that are sitting here at the back would be then free to go.

Mr. Maloway: Well, I hope we do not discuss this matter until four o'clock. I would think depending on how many answers we have, we may in fact get on to another part of the department before four o'clock. So I would not want to send everybody away.

On the other hand, it is my intention at this point to stay within the IT sector for the hour, provided that we have information being provided.

Mr. Pitura: The honourable member for Elmwood requested the last time we had discussions here in Estimates the rollout schedule for the desktop, and I am prepared to table some documents that will give him some idea as to the rollout as of March 1999, by quarter, and also the work stations transition to date right up until November 1998, no, this will be to November 1999, I am sorry. So I table these documents.

Mr. Maloway: I thank the minister for providing that information. I will take a look at it as soon as it is copied.

In the meantime, though, I was given figures the other day of the desktop program costing $162 million. That is for the roughly 9,600, I think it is, units in the project, the 7,200 original and then the additional Family Services units and the Department of Health's units. The problem is I am looking for figures for the hospitals and the Crown corporations, for basically their IT-related costs related to the year 2000 and not specifically Y2K. I mean the Finance department has given me $70 million as the cost of their 65 Y2K projects. Now that is evidently the total number of Y2K projects in existence in the government, and that number, that 65 projects, $70-million budget, covers everything, covers the government, covers the hospitals and I believe covers the Crown corporations. That is my understanding that their global budget is $70 million. Where we are missing information is on the total cost of all of the computer buys and software buys and consulting and whatnot that are not specifically considered Y2K.

I, in my own mind, put it all in one big picture. To me it has all come about because of the year 2000, but you split them off into specific Y2K projects and then your desktop program. So what I am trying to find out is what are the hardware costs related to the year 2000 activities as far as the hospital authorities are concerned and all of the Crown corporations?

Mr. Pitura: I thank the honourable member for that question, however I will not be able to answer his question with regard to the kind of information he is looking for because under the auspices of the Department of Government Services, specifically the Desktop Management Unit, the sole responsibility for that unit was to provide the desktop management for the conversion of the desktop within the provincial government solely. As such, we do not have the information with regard to the hospitals or the Crown corporations that the member is looking for. I am not sure whether we could even obtain that information for the member.

Mr. Maloway: Mercifully, the member for the former constituency of Turtle Mountain is here today, and he was here yesterday. He was here with me when I asked the Finance minister these same questions. Talk about buck-passing.

I tend to blame now, if I am going to blame anybody here, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer).

An Honourable Member: Not Frank. Frank is very easy to work with.

Mr. Maloway: That is right. This minister has been fairly easy to work with, very straight-forward. So I tend to believe this minister. But when I go to the Finance minister and the Finance minister basically buck-passes back to Government Services each and every step of the way, then the logical conclusion that one can draw is that there is nobody in this government who really knows what is going on, that in fact there is no real way of determining, other than maybe asking the Provincial Auditor, what the total costs of all of the computer software and hardware upgrades, consulting fees and Y2K-specific projects, the total of those costs are. There is no way of telling that, because the Government Services department says we are responsible just for $162 million and 9,627 units and that is it. You go to the Finance department and they say, well, we are not responsible for anything to do with desktop. All we have to do is just the Y2K projects, the 65 of them worth $70 million and for computer hardware related to hospitals, all the hospitals in the province, and all of the Crown corporations, we have no idea how to find that out.

Now let us get with the plan here. Surely somebody has this information. If you do not know, I do not know where you can get this information from. You are an integral part of this whole system here, and you people work very closely with the Department of Finance. All this buck-passing going on and saying, well, you know, it is not our responsibility; it is Finance's responsibility. Then you go to Finance and they say, well, no, it is Government Services. To me, that just does not wash. I figure you should both be able to provide these answers. If you do not have the answers readily available, you should be able to get them.

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Mr. Pitura: I would like to clarify for the honourable member that with regard to the desktop rollout for the provincial government and the establishment of the Desktop Management Unit, the responsibility that the Desktop Management Unit was charged with was the conversion of the desktop within the provincial government. No other responsibility with regard to hospitals or Crown corporations, or rural RHAs for that matter, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority or the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority, were charged as a responsibility for the Desktop Management Unit. So I will hope that the member can appreciate the fact that within a responsibility that was charged to us, we have proceeded to fulfil that responsibility with regard to the Desktop Management Unit. As such, I would just like to say, too, I think that the Desktop Management Unit has done an excellent job in getting the rollout completed on schedule and getting the whole desktop area transitioned for preparation to enter the new millennium and to ensure that within the realm of the provincial government, we are Y2K compliant and Y2K ready.

The numerous regional RHAs, Winnipeg Health Authority, would all have information in their own respective organizations in terms of Y2K readiness. In terms of whether in fact they have a desktop management system in place or whether they intend to do a desktop rollout, that does not stop us in the future if the WHA or the rural RHAs would like to enter into a discussion with the provincial government with regard to their desktop units. We would be receptive to having that discussion and working with them to achieve their goals in that area.

But at the present time, our sole responsibility is strictly for the desktop management rollout within the provincial government. As such, when the member is asking me information with regard to the global picture within the province of Manitoba, unfortunately I cannot answer the question. It would take probably months of research on our part, of which in terms of staff time and resources would be difficult to do trying to put a global scenario together. So I hope that the honourable member can appreciate that.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, let us just speculate for a moment. Just where would the minister think that one could get the information then as to what the costs of the hardware and the costs of the software and the costs of the consulting relating to the changeover to year 2000 for the hospitals of Manitoba and all of the Crown corporations? Just who in this government does he think would have that information?

Mr. Pitura: Well, in a quick answer for the honourable member, I would think that each rural hospital authority, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority, would each have their own information with regard to their IT area and their Y2K readiness, as well, each Crown corporation of the provincial government would also have its information available in terms of whether it is Y2K ready and its desktop status.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, would he think that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) would have all of this information?

Mr. Pitura: Well, Mr. Chairman, that would be terribly presumptuous of me to think that the Minister of Finance would have that information. Since the purview of the regional hospital authorities–they are basically autonomous organizations that look after their own affairs. As such, that information is not necessarily shared with the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance certainly knows, in terms of the global funding that travels through the Department of Health to the regional hospital authority, but in terms of the Y2K readiness and what the computerization within a regional health area, what the status is of it, I am not so sure that he would have that detail.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, would you think, though, that he is the most likely person to be able to get the information, that if the Minister of Finance does not know what the global picture is, what the total costs are for the computers for the entire government and its Crown corporations, then who else would he expect should have that information?

Mr. Pitura: Well, Mr. Chairman, for example, if you were to take the Burntwood RHA, they would have that information available within their regional health district. If you are looking at a Crown corporation, the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation would certainly have that information available to them, and as the member well knows, the recent conversions that MPIC have undertaken have not had to have the approval of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) to proceed with it because they are a corporation, and they make their own corporate decisions. So overall, the member could probably obtain the information as easily as anybody can with regard to the desktop status within each one of these organizations and their Y2K readiness.

Mr. Maloway: I think that the answer is a little more simple than that. I think that the Finance minister should have these figures. I think if he would get out of his foxhole and start answering some of these questions. I think the previous Minister of Finance who quite honestly ran things in this town, Minister Stefanson seemed to be controlling everything from his little hideout there in Finance, and today it just seems like nothing is going on in Finance compared to the old days when Minister Stefanson basically ruled the roost here and had all of the information and gave out pretty well all of the orders.

I guess those days are now gone, and now we are trying to find out just who is in charge around this place. It is getting kind of hard to discover who has got the authority. You know, it is difficult for us to tell whether it is just deliberate or whether it is just lack of ability to find the information. I suspect, because of the election coming up in a couple of months, that it is a bit of both. So I think we will have to pursue this particular point anyway with regard to the Crowns and the WHA and so on with the Minister of Finance a little further and see if I can get some better answers from him. If not, I guess there are other ways of obtaining the information, but obviously the easiest, quickest way would be simply to ask you or to ask the Minister of Finance and hope that they would be able to have the resources to be able to get the information.

I would like to ask the minister now, with the throne speech's comments about reduction in the size of the civil service of 10 percent over the next five years. I know that you are planning to achieve it through attrition, you are not planning to fire, so I think people in this room can relax a bit. They are not going to fire anybody; as people quit or retire, they just will not be replaced.

Mr. Pitura: I am the only one that is on term.

Mr. Maloway: That is true. The minister says he is the only one on term, and that is very observant, and so am I, I might add. But the question is, if you reduce–I am not sure of the number of civil servants, I think it is 15,000 or thereabouts–the civil service by 10 percent, that would be 1,500 people, and over five years that would be–well, I do not know how many that is, but in any event, it is a substantial reduction of people. Clearly the jobs will have to be done by the remaining people, so some people will have to do more work.

My guess is that you are planning to use all this money you have spent, this $162 million in IT, to streamline your operations so that you will not miss the people who are leaving as much as you might if you did not have this IT in place. So the question is: is that a correct assessment, first of all, that the new streamlined features of this system will allow you to operate with fewer people?

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Mr. Pitura: I know that the honourable member made reference to the throne speech about reducing the overall size of government by 10 percent and this is to be accomplished through attrition. I would share, though, with the member that within the Department of Government Services, actually our staff complement has gone up this year. As well, I would share with the honourable member that five or six or whatever, seven years ago, we had no such thing as a desktop management unit within the provincial government. Now we do, and we have a tremendous need for people who have expertise within the information technology area. By placing the information technology right across government, it need not necessarily result in the reduction of jobs as a direct impact of information technology. However, there may be areas where the inclusion of information technology might make it possible that if there was three staff performing the function before, maybe it could be performed by two now and as a result of attrition, that that were to occur. But when you go through an attrition process, it is a fairly long process, a complicated process because you obviously do not know where the attrition is going to take place.

So a lot of planning and co-ordination has to be done in order to still be able to deliver those services that the people of Manitoba want to see from their government and to deliver them in an efficient and customer-oriented type manner. Given the fact that we are certainly in terms of the provincial civil service at this point in time–is that the approach that delivering services to Manitobans is probably one of the most important aspects of their role, and I would say that the public service overall is doing a very good job in terms of being able to address a lot of the issues that we have to face today in government. But if you set as your long-term goal that the reduction could take place, we would anticipate that the process would be such that it would be a very soft type of transition process that would take place, with the least impact on the ability of government to deliver services.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the minister then how much of an increase in staff the department had. For example, I think it was two years ago, when you sent the tenders out for the desktop system, the projection in that tender was for a reduction of, I believe, 53 or 57 people. People were given the option of going to work for SHL or staying with the government, I believe. There was some projection there that a number of civil servants would be reduced as a result of desktop. I know that I made that statement in the past because I was simply looking at it in the tendering documents. So the question is: what happened then? If you increased the number of civil servants after reducing the number by 53, then what did you increase it to, and just where are these people allocated at this point? What sort of people were hired and where were they obtained from?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, just to share with the member that our increase in staff from '98-99 to '99-2000 went up from 901.78 to 902.58. Really, what this says is that the department has been static over a period of time in terms of staff complement, and I would like to just repeat it for the honourable member, that our staff went from 901.78 up to 902.58 full-time equivalents, which really, if you take a look at it is an increase, but you could call it static in terms of the total numbers of staff, but the member was referring to the number of staff that when the decision to go to a desktop contract was made, the 53 staff that he was referencing, that was 53 right across government. The net impact in the Department of Government Services was not significant because the Desktop Management Unit was being couched inside the department.

Just to also identify or share with the member that when the transition was taking place over to SHL as the contractor, SHL had identified 73 candidates who were invited to interviews. Six of those candidates declined interviews, and out of the 67 candidates interviewed, 52 employees received employment offers from SHL on October 21, 1997. Of the 52 employees interviewed, 35 former Manitoba government employees accepted offers from SHL and 17 have declined. Also, all affected employees who either were not extended job offers by SHL or who declined offers have been accommodated within the government. The majority of employees remain within their current department performing similar duties, less any desktop-related functions.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what sort of activities or planning the department is involved in at the current time. I am talking, once again, about this e-commerce concept, e-commerce within the government itself first. The system is designed, I would assume, for that or designed to be set up for that and presumably–I have your Materials Distribution manual from a couple of years ago where there is a list of hundreds and hundreds of products and prices, and each department can order from this system.

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The question is: are there any plans to have this ordering system set up on the computer so the departments can order all their products directly from the computer, or is that being done right now?

It is just logical to me that if you are trying to streamline government, with the whole world moving very quickly towards an e-commerce environment, that that would be logical that the supply and services portion of the government would be communicating with all the other departments in the government who wish to order things, based on an e-commerce basis, that if the Department of Highways wants to order something from the Government Services department, they basically do the order through e-commerce, and they give their credit card or whatever authorization they need for this service and the service is provided.

Mr. Pitura: The honourable member, I believe, is quite right in his statement. At the present time, because of the fact that desktop is in place and there is the SAP system in place, all of the departments within government can electronically order their goods and services from Materials Distribution, and certainly the other communication of course can take place as well. But for the Materials Distribution part of it, that certainly happens right now. For the member's information, any purchases made by departments that they would like to have a tendering process on or a request for a proposal are done through the MERX electronic tendering system that is shared nationally across this country under the agreement for internal trade. So any goods and services purchased that are outside the government, such as an SOA like Materials Distribution, are done outside the province through the MERX system.

Mr. Maloway: Are there any other areas within the government that the department sees could be set up in the same way that Materials Distribution is? What are your future plans in this area? Do you have other departments where you plan to get them set up in the same way that they can provide their services to other departments through an e-commerce solution?

Mr. Pitura: I would also add to the previous statement, too, that not only do departments order their materials electronically through Materials Distribution, but also the flow of dollars goes electronically as well in order to pay the accounts. Along that line, certainly all the special operating agencies in the provincial government would have the ability to supply goods or perform services for other departments in which case the invoicing and payment of accounts can all be done on an electronic basis, so there are some very distinct advantages into having the electronic system set up in this manner.

I might just share with the honourable member an example of where the electronic commerce has actually been of a great benefit, and that would be in Materials Distribution whereby the goods are ordered electronically. The invoice and the payment of that invoice is also done through electronic means, which results in the fact that the Materials Distribution Agency has a lower level of receivables and, therefore, it affects their bottom line in terms of being able to provide an efficient and a very cost-competitive service to government departments.

Mr. Maloway: The flow of the money in the e-commerce system that you have would be through your department, or would it be through the Finance department? In other words, when Materials Distribution is conducting commerce on this Net, how does it all tie in to Finance, because presumably–I mean, there are several ways of doing it, I am sure, but presumably you could have Materials Distribution selling products through e-commerce, and because it is an SOA it would show a profit at the end of the year. Presumably other SOAs, like Vital Statistics or Land Registry, could be doing the same thing, only they could be selling their product directly to the public on an e-commerce basis.

The question is: what you are doing here, does that tie in to the Minister of Finance? Basically, who is taking care of the money, is what I am really interested in knowing here.

Mr. Pitura: With each individual SOA that is established within the provincial government, when they are doing this electronic commerce or any type of commerce that they may be doing, their financing as an SOA, because they are a special operating agency, is all internal. So in terms of, for example, Materials supplying the Department of Agriculture with goods and services for their needs, their electronic invoicing would go to the Department of Agriculture, and the Department of Agriculture would transfer the funds to Materials.

In the broader picture, the role of the Department of Finance would be the co-ordination of all the SOAs within the provincial government from the standpoint of co-ordinating their functions. But each SOA is responsible for its own internal financing as such so all their accounting is kept separate, and it is not into any kind of fund account, general account, that would see the money flow into one huge account. It stays within their SOA for the reasons of them doing their business.

Mr. Maloway: What sort of long-term plans then does the department have with regard to e-commerce as it relates to dealing with the public? For example, I mentioned the Land Registry could be an SOA dealing with registering hunting licences, or could be–you know, we talked about this before. There must be studies around in the government right now for ways of conducting, giving that as an option because as you know–I do not know what percentage of your constituents operate on a computer right now, but I do not imagine that you would get a tremendous amount of usage.

As the years go by and the younger people grow up and become more computer literate, people might prefer to deal with the government directly on an e-commerce basis as opposed to getting in their car and driving in the city down to the Land Titles Office or in the country driving 20, 30 miles. I know people are used to driving quite a distance in the country. Nevertheless, if you can access the field reports, if you are a farmer, through an e-commerce method, or if you can register your direct seller's licence, for example, without having to use snail mail or drive down to the government building–this, of course, is being enabled by the federal legislation that Manley brought in a few months ago federally to allow for electronic signature, because, in any transaction where a signature is required, that would be your problem at the current moment. Once that gets cleared up, which it may have been by now or will soon be, then there is nothing stopping you from doing that.

Now you know all this, so I am not telling you something you do not know. What I want to know is: just what are the immediate plans for the full utilization of this new system in this area of e-commerce as relates to Government Services?

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Mr. Pitura: From the standpoint of the provincial government with respect to SOAs, certainly there is a lot of potential for e-commerce to be carried out by SOAs. Just the SOAs that are within the Manitoba Government Services department, there is certainly a high potential for them to be moving into the e-commerce area. I guess, if I was to expound on this a little bit with the member, I would say that, from my standpoint, being a rural member and some of the difficulties that earlier on we went through with respect to transitioning into an electronic environment, the office that I used to work at in Morris, where the Manitoba Agriculture and the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation shared office space, it was impossible for us to link up or even com-municate electronically within the office. In fact, in order to share a laser printer, we had to have a different address system for each computer so that the printer could work, and you could not stack because it would not read them.

Now with the evolution of the desktop rollout, it is possible now for much more efficient use of the computers within that office. As an example for the member, prior to the changeover, if a producer came in and wanted to make a payment against his account with MACC, that was fine; they could handle that, and it could be recorded and credited to the account. If the producer wanted to come in and make a payment against his Manitoba crop insurance account, we could not do it. We had to send the producer over to St. Pierre to pay his account in person there. I think, with the electronic changeover that we have now, it would indeed make it possible for that farmer-producer to come into the office to make a payment on his MACC account, to pay his Manitoba crop insurance account, and also to order plans or maps or what have you, or, in fact, even through the office be able to access, say, the nearest Land Titles Office to find out if there are any encumbrances on a title that he is expecting to purchase in the next little while. So there is a tremendous amount of potential for the electronic commerce within the provincial government.

I think the member would appreciate that, with the rapid change in technology, today we may be thinking along the lines of changing over to one type of electronic commerce; in a year's time, we may, in fact, be modifying that to encompass a whole range of things. So we always have to try to be cognizant of the kinds of changes and how rapid the changes are taking place in terms of how we strategically position ourselves to take advantage of some of these electronic changes in the future.

Mr. Maloway: Can the minister give us some specific examples of other sorts of e-commerce ideas that the government is contemplating?

Mr. Pitura: Well, I think the member alluded to one of those examples earlier on in his statement, the fact that, if you wanted to purchase a hunting licence, I would like to see the time when you can just walk into a kiosk, that is a provincial government kiosk in a shopping mall and be able to order your hunting licence or renew your driver's licence or maybe order a copy of your birth certificate, do your business with a number of agencies through that one kiosk.

He references one-stop shopping for the customer, and I think that in terms of being able to deal with the government of Manitoba the individual may not even know when they are at the kiosk that they may have indeed done business with seven or eight different departments.

Mr. Maloway: Well, how close is that? Are you in the testing stages with this or the planning stages? Just where are you at this with idea?

Mr. Pitura: Well, that would be, I think, a question that would be best placed with the chief information officer, because the responsibility of that office is to take a look at the fact that now we have the desktop rollout, how do we utilize that rollout by government, and it is that person's responsibility to take leadership on that. I have had some brief conversations with the individual about some of this, but I think in order to tap the kind of thought process that they are going through, it would be best to speak to them.

Mr. Maloway: Well, the minister mentions kiosks. How many kiosks would they be looking at? I am wondering why they would have kiosks when you can simply do it through your home computer. What would be the advantage of having a kiosk? I can see where there are a lot of people that do not have computers, that is true, but if you consider the cost of setting up kiosks and renting the space and setting this thing up, I am just wondering what the costs would be like to do this versus what it would be like just to simply allow people to access the services through their computer at home or work.

Maybe you will have to do the kiosks anyway; maybe you would be doing them both ways. You will be allowing people to access it through their home, but you will have the kiosk in, you know, Polo Park Shopping Centre or three or four shopping centres. It will not be that you will be having them like bank machines on every corner; you will have half a dozen in the city, and that will be it.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chair, I think the honourable member, when I reference kiosks, it probably demonstrates the fact that when I was mentioning before how rapidly change takes place, but indeed the member may be right. Maybe there would be little need for kiosks based on the use in the marketplace, but there may be a significant percentage of people who do not have the ability to access government through their home computers, who do not have home computers.

There are some of us, myself included, that could probably do all banking electronically from home, but I just love to talk to my bank staff in person. It is always nice to see a friendly face behind the counter and to have a chat with them about what is going on in their lives, and they can ask me about mine. We have a good friendly conversation, and they look after me very well that way. So it might be a while. I guess I would have to wait until my bank branch was closed before I switched over to electronic banking, but right now I kind of enjoy the people that work there.

Having said that, I would say to the member that certainly kiosks may be, as the member pointed out, become technologically obsolete, but that is why I think it is important to ask those questions of the chief information officer, because that is the individual who is supposed to have his mind and hands wrapped around this thing.

Mr. Maloway: So in the next 12 months then, does the minister foresee any type of e-commerce occurring as between the government and the public?

Mr. Pitura: I really cannot give the member a specific answer to that. I think that the chief information officer would have some idea if there were any kinds of pilots that are being contemplated in terms of a trial basis to see what the market acceptance, et cetera, is of these things, but that would probably be the best question to ask of the chief information officer.

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While I have the microphone, Mr. Chairman, the honourable member asked about the costs of the Partners in Progress agreement between Family Services and IBM, and we said we would get the information and we hold true to our word. We are here with the information just a he requested.

We have contacted Family Services, and the annual cost related to the Family Services Partners in Progress agreement is approximately $1.1 million. This includes technical desktop support and applications server support. It does not include desktop management costs such as telecommunications staff overhead to administer the contract or any variable cost such as the moves, ads or changes of computers. I am also advised that Family Services is prepared to give you a more detailed breakdown if you so choose just by contacting them.

As well, the member received a computer printout with regard to the leased properties the other day, and there were a number of leases that did not have names. I guess maybe the simplest way would be–I will just read through them very quickly, and then I will table it and you can have the copy, but there are agencies of government that have facilities. These include things like Burntwood RHA, Interlake, Economic Innovation and Technology Council, South Eastman RHA, Parklands, Central, North Eastman Community Economic Development Fund, Interlake, Marquette RHA, Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, Children and Youth Secretariat, Gaming Control Commission and the Community Economic Development Fund. I am prepared to table this document for the member's use.

As well, the member also asked about Computers for Schools and Libraries, about who is on their board of directors and what organizations they represented. I am not sure whether these are Mr. or Ms. There is a C. Buchanan from Telephone Pioneers, an A. Northum from WPLB, and we are not sure what that means. There is also an R. Petz, Canadian Bankers Association and an R. McNaughton from Telephone Pioneers.

One of the things I neglected to share with the honourable member the last time we spoke on this was the fact that the Telephone Pioneers are probably one of the major sponsoring groups and volunteer groups with regard to Computers for Schools and Libraries, and they have been instrumental in making sure that this thing goes. I will table that for the member's use.

As well, the member also asked about the Time Dilation Syndrome. The member asked about time and date–[interjection] So the member is satisfied with the information he received from the chief information officer?

An Honourable Member: Sure. Absolutely.

Mr. Pitura: Okay. Then I do not have to bother sharing this; I am finished with my information that I need to share with the member.

Mr. Maloway: I wonder, the minister is so forthcoming with this information, and I thank him for that, whether he could provide me copies of the e-commerce studies that have been done by the Gartner Group. Does he have any of these studies available? Have they been done by and for the government? I assume that Government Services would have copies of them: the Gartner Group, the Giga Group, and, I believe, the Hackett Benchmarking, the third group that has done studies for the government in the area of e-commerce.

Mr. Pitura: Just to advise the honourable member that we do not have the results of those studies since it really does not affect us.

Mr. Maloway: I was hoping the minister could get this information because it is certainly possible for him to obtain the information, probably more easily than it is for me to get them. I know that Finance has done these. The government has paid for these studies. They are available on e-commerce, and if you could use your good offices to obtain these studies, then we would all be a little smarter and more up to date. Mr. Ruberg certainly seems prepared to provide the information, but there is a bit of wall between him and me with the minister sitting in between, so we have yet to resolve that.

Now perhaps today he will be a little more forthcoming. We are going to be dealing with him in about 12 minutes from now for two hours, between four and six o'clock. I can ask him about these studies, but I thought, it made sense to me that, since you have provided the other information very quickly, I should be asking you about these Gartner Group studies as well.

Mr. Pitura: I just want to indicate to the honourable member that I am not sure that the information in these studies would be even available to us. However, in the true fashion of Government Services–the Department of Government Services always performs–we never say no, and we will try. Having said that, we will try. We will give it our best shot, but there is no guarantee.

Mr. Maloway: Because we are running out of time, I wanted to ask some questions that I did want to get out of the way today, and one of them has to do with the computers that were planned to be given to the Pan Am Games that subsequently are not being given to the Pan Am Games, the older computers that are going to the schools. Some of those computers, I was told, were evidently ordered and were not ULC compliant. The question is: if they are not ULC compliant then why would you be providing them to the schools?

An Honourable Member: They are CSA.

Mr. Maloway: They could be CSA or ULC, but the point is there is a national standard governing electrical products, and in the old days when government departments ordered their own computers, there was a variation. If you ask any computer company executive in this town, they will all tell you that they were quite frustrated because the price was what the government used to choose the supplier. In fact, some of the lower-cost, say, suppliers may not have been using the same standards. So there was an inconsistency in standards as between, say, what school boards were asking versus what the City of Winnipeg would be asking, what various government departments would be asking.

Some contracts over in, I believe it was, Woodsworth Building, large numbers of computers were not technically compliant with the standards. Then I find out they are being sent to the schools, and the fear is that they can have a short. The chances are probably not very good, they have been operating in, say, Woodsworth Building, for one or two or three years–no fires reported. But now you are sending them to the schools. There may be remote chances of something going wrong, but you would not want to see a computer catch fire and cause damage in the schools.

So I would like to know just what it is. If the computers were not compliant for the government, then why are they acceptable in the schools?

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that the computers that have been channelled through Computers for Schools and Libraries, of course, at the time when the transitioning was done over to desktop, a lot of government departments took the opportunity to not only take their existing desktop that they had, then turn them over to schools and libraries, but in fact many departments had machines that were even older, that basically a cleanout was done.

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As to whether they were CSA or ULC approved, my understanding was that electrical products that were sold in the Canadian marketplace had to have a CSA approval on them to be sold as a retail machine, so I am not sure where the member is coming from on this question.

Mr. Maloway: Well, it had to do with the power supply standards, I believe, and it had to do specifically with two. There were two contracts that were brought to my attention. One, I believe, was in Brandon. The other was in Winnipeg, and it had to do, I am almost certain, with the Woodsworth Building, computers in the Woodsworth Building in the Justice department, I believe.

So basically what it was, and this happens when a losing bidder does not get the contract oftentimes. This was before the desktop rolled out, but it would be the computers that you had in there just prior to the rollout occurring, so whatever you replaced these computers with the desktop units just 12 months ago or less than that, and I believe it was Justice.

What you did with those is you took them and you were planning to send them to the Pan Am Games and then to the schools. Now you are taking them directly to the schools. The allegation that was made to me was that when these computers were bought some two or three years earlier, the supplier of the computers did not meet the provincial government standards at the time. I had a copy of the provincial government requirements, the provincial government standards, so they did not meet your own requirements in terms of the power supply. So I had this down, and the question is, if you would look into that, and get back to me with some sort of a response.

That is, as near as I can recall, the circumstances surrounding this case. I am not aware of any fires or any shorts or anything like that that happened in either the Brandon case or the Department of Justice, but because they did not live up to the government standards as far as the electricals were concerned at the time of delivery, then the question is, if you are sending them off to the schools, are you sending them off in the same condition that they left the government in?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, in response to the honourable member's question about these computers, we are prepared to look into it and to come back to the member with any information that we may be able to find.

I would say that, in my limited computer expertise, the only computers I can recall that would have had a power supply unit would have been probably the old 8086s that had a 110 to converter-type unit on them because I imagine all the newer computers that are purchased have the power units built right into them. As such, my understanding is that anything that hits the retail market in Canada should have CSA approval. It might not necessarily have ULC approval because that is the underwriter's lab that puts that approval, but if we have approval from the Canadian Standards Association, that approval is what is necessary to have in Canada.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the minister regarding the financing of the desktop program as to whether or not the project was achieved through borrowed money or whether it was just paid out of general revenue?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, to our knowledge, with regard to the desktop, the way the funding was put into place was an internal financial transaction that took place. To our knowledge, it was a cash transaction, and it did not go outside the government to borrow the funds.

Mr. Maloway: I think I will take that question up with the Finance department then. Certainly, they will have to answer that one.

An Honourable Member: That would be wise.

Mr. Maloway: Yes, but I am sure they will find a way of saying it is your fault and your responsibility.

I would like to also ask the minister if he could, because we are almost out of time for today, for Monday or whenever we get back in the session here, get information on any–we know there were some cost overruns in the program, but I was told specifically, with the Department of Labour there were some difficulties there with cost overruns. I would just like to know what the nature of the problem was in the Department of Labour. There was some questioning that occurred in the Labour Estimates. I have not yet gone through the Hansard related to them, but what the explanation would be for what the problems were in the Labour department and in any other department. If you could get back to me with some of the details on that, I would be most appreciative.

Mr. Pitura: The member refers to a cost overrun. I think I would just like to correct the member on that because essentially when we established the first contract with SHL to perform the desktop and transition us into a managed environment, the terms of the contract were based on an estimate at that particular time of approximately 7,000 desktop units. But also I think it is important to know that within that contract, if we had the additional desktop units to place, the contract terms also applied to those units as well.

So how we ended up was the fact that as the desktop rollout took place, we did the estimate to the best of our ability. Then when we went into the various departments with the desktop rollout, the needs were in some cases redefined where individuals, rather than having the desktop hardware unit, preferred to have the laptop unit which tended to increase the cost. Also the departments, as they were going through desktop rollout, also identified additional seats, as we refer to them, within the desktop program or the Desktop Management Unit, that these additional seats when they were added to the original number also added to the increase in cost.

So our per unit cost stayed at a relatively static level, but our over global cost increased as a result of the increased demands for services from our Desktop Management Unit with regard to the numbers of computers and the number of extra seats that were required, as well as the training. All of these individuals who were now at these seats had to also be trained, so that added to the additional cost as well.

Mr. Maloway: I understand that the Legislative Building Information Systems is under the Department of Finance. What can the minister tell us about how the rollout occurred as far as the Legislature was concerned? Is that included in the rollout package here and the list of units that you have given me?

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Mr. Pitura: I would just advise the honourable member that the Desktop Management Unit and SHL in a contract did provide for the rollout of desktop computers for the Legislative Building. But because the Legislative Building is out of scope, the provision of hardware was all that was done. The numbers that I have shared with the member, those numbers do not include the hardware that was placed here in the Legislative Building.

Mr. Maloway: I believe we are to close this committee.

Mr. Chairperson: As previously agreed, Government Services will cease for the day, and we will move over to Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. As had been previously agreed, questions for this department will fall in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning has been completed. The floor is now open for questions.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs–I guess in the name of the Minister of Government Services–some questions about a particular area of concern for me, both in the riding I used to represent or do still, I suppose, legally, and in the riding that I will be seeking to represent in the new election whenever Mr. Downey's Premier gets the courage of his convictions and decides to call an election–[interjection] Well, we will see, Jim; we will see.

I want to ask about areas of the rent control and Rentalsman's office. I do not know whether the minister is familiar with this office or whether he has the right officials here. Do we have the right officials? Okay. Would it be possible to have the minister introduce the officials that are at the table with him, Mr. Chairperson?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Acting Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would first like to introduce Alex Morton, who is the Deputy Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and Roger Barsy, director of the Residential Tenancies Branch. So it is Alex Morton and Roger Barsy.

Mr. Sale: I have had occasion to call the office a number of times in recent days, and Mr. Barsy probably knows the issue that I am speaking about in regard to 134 Smith Street. I want to say first that the officials of his office have been very helpful and very courteous, and I have no complaint about how the individual people in the office have responded to my concerns. I want to raise it on another level than individual staff service.

Just to give the minister some context which Mr. Barsy probably already has, an investor from Montreal purchased Place Promenade and what used to be called York Estates. It is a building at 134 Smith, which is the corner of York and Smith. It is a fairly large high rise, I think approximately 160 suites, maybe a few more than that. It was built about 20 years ago. At that time it was quite an upscale apartment–swimming pool and other amenities. I think it would be fair to say it was on the upper end of the Winnipeg rental market when it was constructed. Unfortunately, over the years of its existence, it has not had much in the way of maintenance, either preventive maintenance or the kind of routine maintenance that would have kept the building in reasonable condition. It has been allowed to deteriorate quite sharply. At the same time, the rents for the building were never increased very much either. That is probably because there was never any work done in the building, but unfortunately it ran down quite severely over the 20 or 25 years. Mr. Barsy can probably put the date of its construction more accurately than I can, but it is about 20 years old, I think.

The new investor from Montreal appears to have had, maybe we could say, unclear plans for the building. When his staff first approached tenants after the sale, he appeared to be saying that his intent was to make significant renovations to upgrade the building, refurbish the swimming pool, carpets, kitchens, a fairly major upgrading. He offered tenants, or his staff offered tenants, new leases with significantly higher rent, but in order to, I guess, mitigate the anger of the tenants that their building had been run down, nothing had been done at the date that the new lease was being offered, and there was going to be substantial dislocation during construction, he offered a discount to the rent.

The discount was significant. The rent increase was in the order of $115 to $125 a month, and the discount approximately matched the rent increase. Many tenants thought this was a reasonably fair deal. They were not unhappy with that initially. A few moved out, but initially many people thought this was reasonably fair. So many signed new leases. Very shortly after the new leases were signed, it is my understanding that the new owner indicated to the tenants that their rent discount was being discontinued immediately. The tenants, whose eyebrows went up somewhat and wondered about this, obviously, they thought they had a discount that was for their lease period which, for the most part, was a year, said: how can this be?

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At least in one case, and I have that particular case in front of me, I do not have any other documented evidence, but in this case, it is the case of Mr. Pierson. I am sure Mr. Barsy probably has this documentation. If he does not, I would be glad to give him a copy because Mr. Pierson has given me permission to do so. The company changed the lease after he signed it. I have a copy of his lease, dated, signed, and then they claim that his lease had been converted to a month to month. What he signed and has shared with me is continuing until April 30, 2000, various other notes on it.

What Apex Realty has is circling a month-to-month tenancy. Of course, my word for that is fraud. Perhaps that is stronger than the minister might want to use, but if somebody alters a legal document to their favour and then attempts to collect on the basis of that altered document, I think that is fraud. That is not just an attempt to manipulate. I think that is straight fraud. I want to know first, what the policy of the Rentalsman's office is in regard to an issue like this where it appears at least that there is prima facie evidence of somebody altering a legal document in their favour. Do the Rentalsman staff treat this as a case-by-case thing, or do they say, wait a minute, we have got a pattern here of a building that obviously the new owner is trying to empty. I have now had several cases forwarded to me since, but I do not have the documentation from them yet. Or does the Rentalsman just say, you know, this is a one-of case; we will deal with it on a one-by-one basis? How aggressive do you get when you see this kind of–and I call it fraud; you call it whatever you want.

Mr. Pitura: I am just wondering if the honourable member, perhaps rather than my answering the question, would like to have the answer directly from Mr. Barsy. If not, I am prepared to answer.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to have Mr. Barsy answer this particular question? Agreed?

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I just would want this not to set a precedent in that I think it is important for ministers to answer, but this is a rather unique situation where the minister is not available so I think this is an appropriate way to do it. We will get it done a lot faster.

Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [agreed]

Mr. Pitura: I would ask Mr. Barsy to answer directly.

Mr. Chairperson: Agreed.

Mr. Roger Barsy (Director, Residential Tenancies Branch): The case that you cited, the facts are essentially correct. The tenancy agreements were fixed-term agreements, and in some cases, for whatever reason, they also had month-to-month agreements. There is a difference because under the fixed-term agreement, the rent discount is valid throughout that tenancy agreement, and that is our policy.

In this case here, we deal with it each on an individual basis because each tenancy agreement may be different. It is not a case of a lease for the whole apartment complex. Each individual tenant may have something different. They may have a month-to-month tenancy. If that is the case, then the landlord, by giving one month notice, would be able to discontinue the discount.

So the answer is that essentially we do not treat it as a whole complex because we have to see which lease is different than the other to make sure that we are doing it consistently, and also that if there is a fixed-term agreement, that that rent discount is valid throughout that term of that agreement.

Mr. Sale: I understand that is the law and I do not have any quarrel with that, but here we have a situation where it appears that agents of the owner changed a document that had been signed. This is not just a month-to-month lease with a discount that someone thought was lasting for a year and was legally changed. I still think that is bad business practice and not particularly honest to offer a discount and then discontinue it a month later. I mean, I think that is shoddy business practice; it is probably not illegal. But the change of the lease from a year-to-year lease, which Mr. Pierson has his signed copy of showing, to a month to month and then withdrawing the discount, I think that is fraud. That is not just bad business practice. That is dishonest when you change a legal document, one copy only. What do you do in that kind of case?

Mr. Barsy: What Mr. Pierson would do and I would counsel him to do is he could make an application to the branch and we would certainly take a look at the facts of the case. I cannot tell you all the facts of the case on this. I do not know the exact particulars, so it would be improper for me to make an adjudication at this point in time, because matters come before our branch and it would seem like we are sort of prejudging the case. So I would not want to do that, but he could come to the branch and certainly make an application to have this determined, and we would certainly overrule that. Now if we found that this was a practice that was happening, we certainly can contact the landlord, the property management company, and advise them as to what this practice is, their wrongful practice and sort of put them on notice that those kinds of practices are not ones that will get any favour at the Residential Tenancies Branch.

Mr. Sale: Well, Mr. Chairperson, Mr. Pierson did approach the branch, and I believe there is a gentleman by the name of Mr. Beck, I think, who is one of the staff who is a mediator. To me, the issue here is not trying to get him a hundred bucks so he will move willingly. This gentleman had a valid lease and a valid discount. He is not an unreasonable man. If the landlord has a real need for him to vacate the building, he is not unwilling to negotiate, but he is certainly not willing to leave for a hundred bucks. The act requires $350 in any kind of move where you are forcing the tenant to move, getting vacant possession or whatever, so right off the hop, the landlord is out of line by offering anything less than that.

Secondly, there is another factor here, and that is that this man has a valid lease, and he cannot be forced out if he is in compliance with the conditions of his lease in paying his rent. He has the right to stay there until the lease expires, and they need then to provide him with quiet–you know, all the conditions of a normal lease, not with threats to cut his water off, to cut his power off, all of which have been made, including, I would say, a malicious accusation that Mr. Pierson is causing vandalism to their property.

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I guess I am asking Mr. Barsy to be a little more assertive on behalf of Mr. Pierson. I do not think Mr. Pierson is an unreasonable man. I do think he has been significantly abused as a tenant in this building. I have also called the fire department and the building inspections people because what is alleged at least is that the building is in an increasingly unsafe condition, with exit doors left open at night, fire equipment unserviceable, elevators out of date, in terms of the safety inspections of the elevators.

Clearly there is a bad situation here, and you should know, Mr. Minister, that Mr. Pierson actually took a job working for the new owner, thinking that it would be an improvement over the old situation where the building had been let rundown, and he was quite hopeful that even though there might be some inconvenience under the new owner while the building was brought up to standard, at least at the end of the day it would be a better building. He quickly came to the conclusion that this owner perhaps was not the kind of person he would want to work for after a few weeks of doing this. So Mr. Pierson is a very capable person, and I would ask that the Rentalsman take a more aggressive approach with this new owner and explain to him the facts of life in Manitoba. I do not care where he is from, but you cannot force people out on a few days notice.

I want to go to a second case, and that is the case of Mr. Charles Cuthford. At least he shows on the vacancy list as Cuthford, C-U-T-H-F-O-R-D. This gentleman is well over 80 years of age, and he has lived there for 16 years, I believe. He is a very competent senior who volunteers at Lions Manor and other places playing the piano and entertaining people, certainly a very capable man to speak with.

He was told two days ago that he had to be out by the end of the month. He tells me he has never received written notice, and of course I think Mr. Barsy would confirm that he is entitled to three months notice, if he is to vacate. He is on a month-to-month lease in the case of Mr. Cuthford. But my understanding is that it does not matter whether it is month to month or year, that he is entitled to three months notice for vacant possession of the building. His claim at least, and I cannot verify it, is that he has never received any written notice from the new owner about leaving the building. He has a degenerative disc. He is well over 80. He asked me not to say how far over 80 he is, but he is well over 80. Your department, Mr. Gagnon, did say you have a program for vulnerable seniors or vulnerable people who need to be relocated?.

Again, Mr. Cuthford is not an unreasonable man, but he was quite–I should not say–he was very agitated, let us put it that way. He said I have no family; I have no people that can help me move. I do not have any place to go. I cannot get out of here by the end of the month. I just cannot do it. Again, he is not saying he would not move. He prefers to stay. If you want a vacant possession of a building, you have to work with at least some of the people who are not going to immediately be able to find housing. So I ask Mr. Gagnon to be in touch with Mr. Cuthford as well.

Am I correct that he is entitled to three months notice, written notice, if the landlord wishes to terminate his tenancy?

Mr. Barsy: The landlord can terminate the tenancies for various reasons. If it is for cause, it can be less than three months; if they have not paid the rent, if they have caused damage to the rented premises, those kinds of things. If the landlord wants to recover the premises for reasons of their own use, it is three months. If they want it for the purposes of repairs and renovations, it is three months notice. So it does depend upon the reason that they want it, but they must give that notice in writing. So no notice is effective unless it is put in writing. The one thing he should know is that he cannot be removed from that premises. That notice, if it is not in writing, if it is oral, is not effective, and there must be an application that must be made to our branch so that the process is followed, which includes mediation, before a tenant can be removed from their premises.

Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, that is the indication that I had from Mr. Gagnon, and I gave to Mr. Cuthford and Mr. Pierson. I am asking that the office take a particular interest in this building. I believe there are only 20-something suites still occupied at the present time. There are some floors where there is only one person on the floor, for example. I think, in many cases, these are people who are vulnerable. They are not middle-income, middle-aged family-types with support systems around them.

I am worried, frankly, that we are going to have a tragedy in this building because of the pressure that is being put on people to move on short notice or under conditions that–you know, none of us would want to have to try and find a place to live on a week's notice when we have lived somewhere for 16 years. The thought of cleaning out my basement is terrifying. For a senior, the difficulty that they would face on that kind of notice–and I think the minister knows and Mr. Barsy certainly knows that that kind of threat can seem insurmountable to someone and can trigger either behaviour or health problems that none of us want to have happen.

I would ask an undertaking from the minister, through the staff, that a particular emphasis be put on mediating and resolving the issues for the remaining people in that building, making sure that they know their rights and then can exercise those rights. Whether they choose to leave on a mediated settlement or not, that is obviously each one's choice, but they should not be threatened by this new owner, and they should not be living in conditions that are not reasonable.

Mr. Pitura: I can appreciate what the honourable member has brought forward with respect to the rental unit on 134 Smith. I guess the main thing to understand is that the Residential Tenancies Branch–and under the act, it is an act that basically deals with the complaints and a mediation process that deals with disputes between landlords and tenants. So, therefore, if the member is requesting that the Residential Tenancies Branch moves in to each individual that is now presently living in that block and contacts them to try to help them through this process, then it would almost seem as if the Residential Tenancies Branch was basically taking a position of one side or the other.

The alternative would be, if the honourable member would not mind, to ensure that each tenant is contacted so that they make the initial contact with the Residential Tenancies Branch. From that standpoint, any type of mediation process that takes place would be seen deemed to be fair to both sides. I am wondering if you can appreciate that the flow of which way the complaint comes from is important in this case.

Mr. Sale: I have already done that, Mr. Minister. I wrote to every tenant in the building about two weeks ago. I want to be very fair to the Rentalsman's office. I am not being critical of them. But what a number of people said was: We have tried; we have not gotten anywhere. Mr. Pierson, for example, was offered a hundred bucks when he was legally entitled to $350, and to have to ask for that, that is his minimum entitlement.

So I think the perception is on the part of at least some of the tenants of the building that the Rentalsman's office is on the side of the landlord now. That is the perception. I am not saying it is correct; I am saying that is the perception I have had shared with me.

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So I want to rebuild confidence in that office's impartiality and fairness. I have given the name and number of the Rentalsman's office to all the tenants still in the building already. I do not know how many of them are contacted because, again, I am not party to that, and I should not be. It is not my right to know whether somebody has contacted a government office or not. So I am a bit in the dark in saying that I fear for what is happening for some of these people, but I have no way of knowing. I just know the three that I know about, and there is not many left in the building. I know that the city inspections people are concerned about the building. They were back in there yesterday, I guess it was, or was it Friday. It was either Friday or Monday–no, Monday, they were in the building, and I do not know what they found, because again they would not necessarily let me know because I am not the person that can remedy the problem.

So I hear the concern, but I gather you have a staffperson working with people in the building; Mr. Beck, I think, is probably doing all of those cases. I do not think it would be stretching things to at least let others know, again, that if there are issues in regard to moving out, as the landlord appears to want people to, that the Rentalsman's office is available to mediate disputes. I think if there are only three, then I have heard about them all and that is fine. Let us deal with those.

But if there was a little bit of proactive effort on the part of the office to say not we are on your side but we are here, we are available, and we will do everything reasonably in our capacity to mediate any disputes you have and concern with the planned renovations of the building, I think that would just be good service for the tenants and would help to restore some confidence that the Rentalsman's office is truly impartial. Right now there is a sense that the landlord has gotten away with murder, and he should not have.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chair, I am advised that if the tenants would request as a group that the Rentalsman works with them or talks to them–

Mr. Sale: As a group, did you say?

Mr. Pitura: Well, if they make the request to the Residential Tenancies Branch, I am advised that an officer could be sent out to them to talk to them as a group, to talk to them and tell them about their rights that they have in their agreements. So they, as a group, can then take a proactive approach to dealing with the landlord.

Mr. Sale: That seems like a very reasonable suggestion, Mr. Chairperson, and I will talk to the people in the building who have contacted me and make that suggestion to them, and then it is up to them to pull that together. Thank you very much.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Chairperson, I am just going to be asking a few questions, and then my colleague the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) is going to ask some questions.

I wanted to start off by asking, first of all, where the minister is because I was surprised when I came in here that the director was answering questions on the record.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The honourable member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey), on a point of order.

An Honourable Member: Oh, I am out of order, am I?

An Honourable Member: Yes, you are.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): I would concur with the point of order raised by the honourable member for Arthur-Virden. Indeed, the honourable member for Radisson is making reference to the presence of an honourable member and I would ask her to–

Ms. Cerilli: I would ask for the Chairperson to check the rules on the issue being a minister in Estimates and we are not in the House and if it is a different situation.

Ms. Cerilli: I will proceed then with some questions. I know there has been a lot of attention over the last year or so with the problems in some older neighbourhoods with boarded-up homes and arson and absentee landlords, and I am wondering if the Residential Tenancies Branch has been involved with any discussions with other government departments in the city or municipalities in dealing with this issue and if there are any proposals that have come forward in relation to The Residential Tenancies Act.

Mr. Pitura: In response to the honourable member, in the past there has been a fair amount of reluctance on behalf of agencies of government, whether they be the city government or municipalities, to work proactively on this issue.

I am advised though that, within the city of Winnipeg, for example, the City of Winnipeg can file a health order with the Residential Tenancies Branch, and that now, after many meetings with the City of Winnipeg, that the City of Winnipeg is now working quite closely with the Residential Tenancies Branch, and they are actively pursuing some of these derelict type properties and actually posting health orders on them, or with them, and as well with the Residential Tenancies Branch. The branch then can enforce the order, and they have the ability to move in, have the necessary repairs done according to the Health department order and charge that back to the landlord. So what has not been working well in the past is working a lot better now.

Ms. Cerilli: So are you saying the health order is now being posted right on the property? The other question had to do with any sort of involvement of the branch right now with any of the discussions that are going on with a variety of initiatives related to these issues of dealing with run-down properties and landlords who are not making the necessary repairs.

Mr. Pitura: I am advised with respect to the health orders that they are posted and also registered with the Residential Tenancies Branch, so they are in public view.

With regard to the derelict properties that the member was referring to, at the present time, the Residential Tenancies Branch does not actively participate in terms of identifying these types of properties for future action but relies on the City of Winnipeg or the municipality to identify the properties in conjunction. But I am also advised that, with regard to any specific program, no, there is no program at the present time that is being structured and put into place. However, discussions are taking place with the intent of possibly, in the near future, having a program in place that is a co-operative approach to this whole problem.

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Ms. Cerilli: That is what I was really getting at is if at this time the branch is involved in discussions that are going on with the city. I know that through the Housing department they are working on this issue. They have a study that is funded through WDA, and the city has people in the mayor's office, and they are doing a lot of work. There are community groups that are doing work. I just wanted to see if the Residential Tenancies Branch, with its experience in dealing with landlords and tenants, is involved in that. It sounds like you are.

Maybe following up in the Estimates, we could get a report of what kind of program discussions and what kind of a co-operative approach is going to be undertaken or is being proposed. I wonder if the minister would agree to provide me with that information after the Estimates or after today.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, just to clarify for the honourable member, I mentioned the word "program" but I am a very, I guess, positive-thinking person because in my own home communities when I realize that a whole number of groups are having discussions that ultimately probably will be giving birth to a program. Not to say that there is not the possibility here because I think, as the member indicated, that so many groups now are addressing the issue that ultimately, if everybody is working together co-operatively and as partners in this whole thing, a program might be born out of it that has some structure to it and has reasonable objectives and it can accomplish a lot. Residential Tenancies, I am sure, would be, if that was a part of it, part of the entire scheme.

Right now, Residential Tenancies, of course, is working with a number of community groups throughout the city with regard to this type of a problem and certainly not only working with the City of Winnipeg health officials, with health orders, but also with the offices of the Fire Commissioner in the fire department as well, and translating this into working with the local community groups in terms of addressing some of these issues. But overall, I do not believe there is a structured program in place right now with regard to this whole issue of run-down properties and properties in desperate need of repair. That is not to say that, over the next period of time, there might not be something as a result of the discussions that take place.

Ms. Cerilli: I also know, I have had some correspondence with the minister and the department about the review of the Residential Tenancies Branch and the act and sort of the parameters of that review, and I want to find out what the status of that is now. I am assuming that the contract has been awarded and that it is ongoing. I know that you have had a few focus groups and I do not have the letter with me where you gave some description of the parameters of the review, but I want to just find out when we can expect that to be completed and the kind of report and recommendations that you are looking for.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised that the clarification for the member is that the review that is going on is a review of the business practices for the branch, not the legislation, not the act, and when this review is completed, I am told that they are expecting it in the late summer to be tabled with the branch, so that is all I can share with the member right now.

Ms. Cerilli: I know one of the issues that both landlords and tenants are questioning in terms of the operations of the branch is the fact that there is not that great a record on compliance with orders, that residents, tenants and landlords can go before the board and the commissioner and a decision is made, and it is not necessarily the case that the decision is complied with, that if a tenant is awarded a return of a damage deposit or if a landlord is awarded damages because of a tenant skipping rent or damaging their property, collecting is a problem. I am wondering if the branch is in any way trying to address that and if that is part of this review at all.

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that the Residential Tenancies Branch vigorously enforces the issue of security deposits, and in order to enforce that they will even go as far as having rent redirects in order to cover off the security deposit. Other outstanding issues between the landlord and tenant with regard to money–any order that is made by the board is filed with the court. Once that is filed with the court, then the judgment has to be addressed by the claimant or the petitioner, petitioned through the court in order to get the judgment carried out. But the order is filed with the court, and that is as far as it can go.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to begin with a procedural question for the Chair, and that is earlier this afternoon did the committee grant leave to allow staff to answer questions directly.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The honourable minister should respond to the question.

Mr. Pitura: I am assuming that the honourable member is asking whether staff can answer questions directly. The answer is if the member wishes to have the staff answer directly, I have no problem with that. We did it earlier in this committee today on the basis of one issue. So if that is suitable with the member, it is suitable to me.

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The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The decision in which to involve staff directly in the questioning at the Committee of Supply certainly can be accomplished with the unanimous consent of the committee. Seeing that we do have that at the present time, I would then ask the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) to identify whom you would like the question to be answered by and to ask his questions at this time.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, notwithstanding the fact that the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Render) has excellent staff in the Residential Tenancies Branch, all my questions will be for the minister, not because I am trying to give this particular substitute minister a rough time, but only because I believe in our system of parliamentary democracy that the ministers are politically accountable, not civil servants.

My first series of questions has to do with casework of one of my colleagues. So the director of the branch might be familiar with two downtown buildings, 400 and 410 Webb Place, which have recently been sold to a new Montreal-based owner. The landlord has made a curious application before the Residential Tenancies Branch or board. Complaints have been received from some residents of that building who received a notice from their landlord that the owner had applied for a 9 percent rent increase. Meanwhile, the tenants across the hall, with an identical two-bedroom suite, have received notice that their rent is to increase by 18 percent. I would like an explanation as to why this particular landlord would apply for differential rent increases for identical two-bedroom suites.

Mr. Pitura: With regard to the specific property that the honourable member is referring to, I am advised that there is at the present time a current application to the branch, which you may be aware of, and as such cannot make a specific opinion with regard to the individual mechanics of the question that the member was referring to as it is under adjudication. However, I would point out and add that the tenants will all be advised by the branch of the landlord's application that they have received, and they can appear at the branch and state their case. It is advised that they do this on an individual basis, although that does not preclude them from doing it on a group basis as well, if they so choose. They can take a look at all of the information that was supplied to the branch by the landlord to justify the landlord's request for a rent increase. In most cases, or in all cases, the rent increase has to be based on either the operating costs, as an issue for rent increase, or the capital costs, in the case of doing some renovations to the building, or if the landlord is posting a loss on an annual basis and therefore would request a rent increase in order to cover the loss. But the tenants in those particular units will be advised as part of the process so that they can respond to the application by the landlord.

Mr. Martindale: I can appreciate that the minister cannot get into specifics of a particular application, so I will ask a more general policy question. It would seem to me that a landlord could ask for any kind of increase that he or she wants on any unit in a building, but would a landlord normally be justified or successful in getting different rent increases, for example, a 9 percent increase on one suite and an 18 percent increase on an identical suite in the same building?

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that if a landlord makes an application for a rent increase in a rental unit, that the global amount of the rent increase has to be spread out equally amongst all the units. However, what can happen is that the landlord has the authority and the power to reduce the amount of the rent increase, i.e., a discount. The member might wonder why one would even want to make a discount. However, I am advised that if you have an apartment that is opening onto a backlane, it may well be discounted as opposed to the apartment that is facing the park on the other side of the building. So these kinds of differentials take place in these rental units.

Perhaps the member has more specifics. Well, I should not be asking for more specifics, but perhaps the member has an idea of how these apartment units are laid out or perhaps another question along that regard.

Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me then if it is possible or conceivable that the landlord might be successful in having different rent increases for different suites? Does this happen? Is this a common occurrence?

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Mr. Pitura: Just to further add to the information that I provided the last time, talking about the global rent increase as being spread out equally amongst all of the units, they had to be equal in either (a) percentage or (b) dollars. So in the case of a percentage increase, the calculations would have to be done to see if the rent increase is indeed equal in terms of the dollar increase per unit before an issue would be identified. So that would be an important criterion, but they are subject to that rule, I guess, and it is pretty vigorously enforced.

Mr. Martindale: My other question was: do landlords often or occasionally get differential increases on identical units?

Mr. Pitura: Maybe I will just start off and maybe have to get some more information for the member later. But if you are looking at a multifloored apartment complex, that if it is a 10-storey complex, of course the apartment units on the 10th floor will probably have a higher value to them than they are on the main floor. So there are a number of variables that have to be taken into account in terms of doing the overall calculation to determine if there was not a fair and equitable distribution of the rent right across all the units. So right from the start this whole process, when you are talking about equal percentage, equal dollars, if you are looking at a multifloored apartment block, it becomes skewed because, No. 1, you have the multifloors, two, you have the view, which way you are looking out from your apartment window. So you have to take all those factors into consideration and then do the calculation and then see if indeed all of the apartment units were in fact treated equally.

I guess one of the challenges and responsibilities facing the Residential Tenancies Branch is when they look at the application from the landlord they would have to determine if indeed the landlord has, when asking for the rent increase, spread it out equally amongst all the units in a fair and equitable basis.

Mr. Martindale: My other question is: what does a landlord need to do to justify such massive increases, or, in a more general way, increases over the province's rent control limits? I think I know the answer to that, partly because I helped write the act and partly because the Minister of Government Services has already answered that question. The answer is that the landlord has to justify either operating costs or capital costs or if he experiences a loss on an annual basis.

What concerns me is that we might have a case where there is a new landlord, he or she is asking for a rent increase. It seems to me that if the rent increase came fairly quickly after the landlord acquired the building that they could not justify on the basis of doing capital improvements unless they had actually spent the money on capital improvements. If they are a new landlord, they would not have a history of losses, so they could not use that to justify a rent increase, and if they are a new landlord, they would not have experienced operating cost increases.

Now I hope that the landlord in the particular case that I want to ask about but cannot get answers for a reasonably good reason will not be able to justify an increase, because if they are a new landlord none of those criteria would apply.

Mr. Pitura: Just in response to the member's comments, talking about a new landlord taking over an existing building, in terms of the parameters that were laid out, they would not necessarily apply. However, in my limited economic background, part of your operating costs of course would be your annual amortization costs as well as part of your ongoing costs. I stand to be corrected on that, but if there is an enhanced value for the property, in terms of the sale, indeed this could be part of the cost, and part of the capital cost of the building that would tend to change the numbers.

So it seems simplistic with just taking those three areas and saying you have to qualify under these otherwise you are not going to qualify for the rent increase, but again, the operating costs with the capital costs having a negative margin or a negative loss on the operation is all something that takes quite a bit of detail to work out.

Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister for that answer. Even without having studied economics, I understand the minister's answer and the situation because it assumes that the new landlord paid a higher price for the building than the previous landlord. Now, if they paid a lower price, it would be different, but if indeed they had paid a higher price for the building then immediately the amortization costs would be higher and therefore the minister would be correct. So I am going to have to go on to another area. [interjection] Oh, the minister wants to give me more information. Okay.

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Mr. Pitura: I just love to share as much information as I can.

An Honourable Member: Just read me the act.

Mr. Pitura: Yes, I am just going to read you the act, and this is not the riot act. I am just looking here that if a residential complex has been sold in the preceding three years, then the Residential Tenancies Branch can take a look back over the previous three years with respect to any increases in costs to repairs or maintenance, or if there was inadequate maintenance, what kind of maintenance would be required now that would enhance the present day costs or the amount of increases and cost increases in previous years as a pattern, and the effect of the accumulation of all these costs on the rent increase applied for.

So there is that ability for them to take a look back into the history of the building for the previous three years to try to ascertain whether the rent increase is, indeed, justified on the basis of and in terms of the operating costs of the building, so I just thought I would share that with the member.

Mr. Martindale: I think a lot of the confusion and even anger, because I have dealt with tenants with huge increases in the past, is that people do not understand that we really do not have rent control, strictly speaking. We have a rent pass-through system, so that under many different conditions, the landlord can pass on increased costs to tenants. That is not always easy to explain to people, because they think that because there is rent control and the landlord only gets an automatic 1 percent increase that their increase should only be 1 percent each and every year. It is much, much more complicated than that, as the director of the branch knows.

I heard my colleague for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) earlier asking about a review of, I think she said, The Residential Tenancies Act. Can the minister tell me if there will be landlords and tenants involved in this review as there was in the 1980s?

Mr. Pitura: To respond to the honourable member: when the honourable member for Radisson was asking a question, it was not a review of The Residential Tenancies Act. It was a business processes review of the Residential Tenancies Branch in terms of the way they do their business. They did have focus groups with both landlords and tenants–[interjection] I am advised that they had the landlords in one focus group and tenants in other focus groups, too, to try to ascertain as to what they liked about the delivery of service from the Residential Tenancies Branch, what they did not like, and what they suggested for improvements. So that is the extent of the review that is being done. There is no intent at the present time, at least in the immediate near future, to review the act.

Mr. Martindale: It would be my understanding that basically we have a complaint-driven system, which is true of probably most government departments and government agencies, whether it is City of Winnipeg health department or the Residential Tenancies Branch or whatever. That is okay for people who know what their rights are or for people who can hire a lawyer or people who take the trouble to go to Queen's Printer and buy legislation, but for a lot of people who do not know their rights, the system does not work very well.

In the past there have been some very good programs which Mr. Barsy will be familiar with, such as CARUMP which is an acronym that stood for Core Area Residential Upgrading and Maintenance Program. It was funded by the first and second core area initiatives, but the funding was not continued when the money ran out for the second core area initiative, and so CARUMP was folded. It was a good program because they had door-to-door inspections. They had housing inspectors on the staff. They had social workers on the staff, and they had homemakers on the staff. The reason that they had several disciplines on the staff was that they were using this program primarily in low-income areas. Frequently, as the result of inspections, houses or apartments had to be closed in order to do substantial repairs. So the social workers on the staff helped people to find another place to live, and sometimes they found people that really needed help on a daily basis with surviving, I guess might be a good word, and so they put homemakers into their home.

Currently, I think that there is a need for this kind of program. We have I believe it is about $60 million from the Department of Family Services going into rent, mostly in the inner city of Winnipeg. I have often contended that taxpayers are not getting good value for their money because much of this is going to substandard housing. But in Family Services the philosophy is that social assistance recipients are responsible for finding their own accommodation and that if you take that away or if you involve staff in finding accommodations, somehow you take responsibility away from people. I would look at it slightly differently and say, yes, it is good that people are responsible for themselves in finding their own housing, but frequently with the amount of money that they are allowed to pay for rent, they end up in substandard housing, and there is no one who is, to my knowledge, regularly inspecting it or approving it before a worker says to the landlord here is the rent money, which in many cases goes directly to the landlord. It does not even go through the tenant's hands. So it is basically guaranteed rent for the landlord.

I am wondering if the department has considered reviving a program like CARUMP or any kind of door-to-door inspection program, whether that was broached when the Winnipeg Development Agreement was being negotiated or whether the department thinks it is necessary or would consider it in a future budget, assuming that this government has a future budget.

Mr. Pitura: The member is correct when he states that the Residential Tenancies Branch is a complaint-driven branch. The reason it is a complaint-driven branch is that their primary role is as a mediator in a dispute resolution between landlord and tenant. They have the ability to place orders, but only in specific cases such as the security deposit, for example, on a rent is where they can actually take some vigorous action. The Residential Tenancies Branch is working with the City of Winnipeg health department, I think I mentioned that earlier, where if the health department identifies a building and posts it, then the Residential Tenancies Branch has the ability to carry out the order and make the necessary improvements that are necessary to comply with the health order and charge the landlord with the cost of that work.

They are working with various agencies: I mentioned health; the police will help identify some properties; or, the fire department. They are also working with local community organizations, such as the West Broadway area group, and if necessary, for example, in a health order, they can take action against the entire building. Also, in the case of a building owner who owns other properties, they can redirect the rental income from those other properties to help pay for the costs over this building, that way maintaining the rent at a reasonable level and not giving the landlord the justification to ask for a huge increase because of the costs involved.

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So there are a number of things that the branch can do, but there are probably many things that they cannot do, based on the legislation that they work under The Residential Tenancies Act. The member talks about the people who are receiving assistance from the provincial government with regard to the rent that they pay. Yes, I suppose you could make a very strong argument to say, well, we have good accommodation over here, you live there because we are paying the rent, we want value for our money. At the same time, you also have to understand that each and every individual family would also like to have the desire to maybe live where they would like to live. Maybe the type of accommodation that they prefer, which the honourable member referred to as substandard housing because of the area, may be what they are willing to live in. The honourable member and I could take a look at that same accommodation and say, well, this is substandard, this is not possible, it should not happen.

But, again, you know, there are some interesting stories, going back through history, of somebody coming in and saying, you know, I am from the government, I am here to help, and totally almost destroy a culture. We have that example right here in Canada. I can give you countless number of examples that are done through sociology throughout North America and around the world where this has been attempted. So, I guess, what I am saying is that I like to always be a little bit careful as to how much you want to control as to where people would like to live.

The other thing, too, is that even if you had a very elaborate program in place to repair and bring up the standards of the so-called substandard housing, indeed, you are still going to have a level of substandard housing. You are not going to get all the housing at the same standard. There will always be some that will be substandard. It is the same thing as there will always be the very rich, and there will always be the poor. It does not matter how far up you bring the poor, there will always be somebody at that low level. It is just something that the cycle goes on.

The member makes a valid point that certainly it would be desirable to have better quality housing available for these families. I think the Residential Tenancies Branch, within the purview of their act, are doing what they can in terms of co-operating with the other agencies and some of the community groups being able to target some of the properties in terms of getting the landlords to improve these properties so that there are adequate accommodation for these people.

If I might be able to add this, Mr. Chairperson, I am also advised that in the case of an occupancy or a failure to comply with an order filed under the act and is so substantial that the occupancy of the rental unit is or would be unfair to a tenant, or endangers or would endanger the health and safety of a tenant, prohibiting the landlord from renting the rental unit until the contravention is remedied or the order is complied with, that part of the act has some teeth to it. If the housing is so sub-standard, perhaps an order of prohibiting the landlord from even renting that unit would be the best.

Mr. Martindale: Could the minister remind me of what section of the act that is?

Mr. Pitura: The section of the act is 154(1), paragraph 10.

Mr. Martindale: We could probably debate for a long time whether people are forced to accept substandard housing or whether they indeed have a choice, but I should probably better take that up in Family Services Estimates.

I was pleased, however, to hear about the role for the Residential Tenancies Branch in situations where the Health department is involved. I assume that the minister was referring to places that are placarded "insanitary." I have quite a few of those in my constituency, so this is of great interest to me.

I think that the City of Winnipeg health department is the best department–notwithstanding there are some hardworking people in the department under discussion today–of any level of government, federal, provincial or civic. When I phone and ask them to inspect a particular address, they inspect it within 24 hours, they get back to me with a report, and they will tell me if they issued work orders and what the work orders are. I cannot think of any other government department that has a 24-hour turnaround time for a complaint. It is very impressive. They are very responsive, and they get thousands of calls every year. They are always in their office and available from 8:30 to 9:30 in the morning. They have cell phones when they are out in the community doing inspections the rest of the day, and they never fail to visit an address about which there is a complaint or to follow up. I do not how they do it, but it is very much appreciated by myself and my constituency assistants and others when we are doing case work on behalf of constituents.

I wonder if the minister can tell me if the branch can get involved in collecting rent when we are talking about single-family detached houses that are being rented, as well as apartment buildings.

Mr. Pitura: The simple answer is yes.

Mr. Martindale: So, in future, if I am calling a health inspector to look at a particular house, and if he is issuing work orders and/or placarding it insanitary, should I also be phoning the Residential Tenancies Branch?

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that perhaps the protocol that the member may want to pursue is that when the house is placarded, that in terms of the proactive approach the member could carry out is to ensure that the health department registers that health notice, order, with the Residential Tenancies, although I would point out, as well, that there has been a great deal of co-operation between the City of Winnipeg health department and the Residential Tenancies Branch in recent times and that the city health department does register the health orders with the Residential Tenancies Branch.

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However, they do not do it or are not required to do it in every case, and, certainly, they do not do it in all cases, so if the honourable member sees a situation where he would like to ensure that that health order is registered with the Residential Tenancies Branch, to perhaps get the city health department to register that with the branch. Then the branch can undertake the action necessary as a part of that health order in terms of upgrading the rental unit.

Mr. Martindale: I must say I am not surprised to hear that this is happening in recent times, although–

An Honourable Member: We are doing great things, Doug.

Mr. Martindale: Well, you might want to disagree with what I am going to say next because with the Pan Am Games coming, you have never seen so many houses demolished in the inner city in your life. Whereas it used to take years, now it takes months. They are on a big cleanup, believe me, in the inner city, in the north end, including in my constituency, and they were doing one a day last fall. I do not know what they are doing now, but there is a big push on, and that is what civil servants tell me, is that it is because of the Pan Am Games.

So I think the words "recent times" was probably a well-chosen expression on the part of the minister, but, you know, I am still glad to hear that the health department is registering their work orders with the Residential Tenancies Branch. That is good to hear.

I would like to ask the minister if he feels that as a result of the Residential Tenancies Branch getting involved at the same time as the City of Winnipeg health department, that the branch is being successful in getting landlords to repair properties and put them back on the housing market, as opposed to doing nothing and having the city follow up, because when work orders are issued they do a re-inspection, and if nothing happens, then they can proceed with a demolition order which does take time, but some landlords are choosing to do nothing and have the house demolished and sell the lot.

But I would be interested in knowing if some landlords, as a result of the branch being involved, are fixing up houses and apartments and putting them back on the market.

Mr. Pitura: I am advised that the City of Winnipeg has given feedback to the Residential Tenancies Branch that when the Residential Tenancies Branch does participate in these particular projects with the City of Winnipeg health department, the city is finding out and experiencing that, because of the fact Residential Tenancies can do something about the rent, the City of Winnipeg is reporting back that the landlords are indeed doing the repairs much more expediently because of the fact that they can lose the rent from that particular dwelling.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I am certainly happy to hear that. I wonder if the branch has any statistics on the number of landlords that are choosing to do repairs and the number that decide not to and let the house or building go.

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, the statistics that the honourable member is asking for in specific, we advise that we cannot supply the statistics as in terms of being able to use them as a comparative analysis, but certainly the statistics are available for the number of requests for repairs. I can share those numbers with the honourable member right now.

If you take a look at 1997-98, the number of units that had repairs was 677, and if you look at 1998-99, the total number of units under repair was 753. So that is a fairly substantial increase one year over the next. I am advised that it is attributed to the extra activity that has taken place as a result of the City of Winnipeg health department and the Residential Tenancies Branch working on a more co-operative basis.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I am certainly happy to hear that. I wonder if the minister would be willing to ask or direct the branch to send a memo to MLAs who represent inner city constituencies and let them know about this co-operation, which is news to me, which I think is quite helpful information and will certainly benefit many constituents in the inner city. Now it appears to me that it is happening automatically. Maybe the minister could confirm that or not.

If I am phoning the city health department, I would certainly like to put in a request that the Residential Tenancies Branch be notified. So I am wondering if the branch or the minister would be willing to send a memo and advise at least inner city MLAs, if not MLAs that have large numbers of tenants, which would also include Brandon and Thompson. I do not know if you get a lot of complaints like this from suburban Winnipeg. I would be rather surprised that you would get the health department going in and issuing work orders in suburban Winnipeg, but perhaps. What about the basic request? Is that something you would look on favourably?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I think in response to the honourable member's question, that is a question I will have to take as notice, and I will ensure that the minister responds directly to the member on that.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I was pleased to read in the most recent annual report of the department that there is an activity that I was not aware of. Maybe one should read all the annual reports. In fact, we used to get all the annual reports and they did not get read very much, and in an attempt to save money, only the critics get the reports and the research staff gets the reports.

An Honourable Member: But do they read them?

Mr. Martindale: Well, this critic reads them from cover to cover, but I only get one.

I was pleased to see the tenant education volunteer program described here, and perhaps the requests for repairs are up because tenants are more aware of their rights as a result of tenant education being done.

I am wondering if this program is something that I as an MLA and other MLAs could tap into. Can we phone the branch and request that staff do tenant education with our constituents at a particular building or at a public meeting?

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Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chairperson, I am advised, and we had some discussion on this the previous time, that the Residential Tenancies Branch does put out a fairly comprehensive education package with respect to the rights that tenants have in the written form. They are, of course, welcome to take that information home and read it.

I am also advised that there are staff or volunteers, I guess, at the Residential Tenancies Branch. I was going to say hires, but then you have to pay them. They bring them into the fold of the Residential Tenancies Branch on a volunteer basis. They go out and, based I guess either on request-driven or a need identified, speak with groups to advise them about their rights under The Residential Tenancies Act and what the landlord's obligations are with respect to the rental accommodations. So the more education that is done in this manner, the tenants in any kind of rental accommodation will have a better idea of what their rights are.

It is not going to be foolproof and capture everybody, but, certainly, as more and more people become aware of The Residential Tenancies Act and what it stands for, we will be more able to take action to protect their rights.

Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could tell me if I can put in a request to have volunteers come out and do education in the Burrows constituency. Is that a possibility?

Mr. Pitura: Well, I say yes and I say a qualified yes. I am assuming that the member for Burrows is willing to sponsor such an event and to provide the coffee, doughnuts, meeting hall, et cetera, for the many hundreds.

However, probably the best way to facilitate the process would be, if you have a group that is identified, that when you are having discussions with them that they have an interest, then they can certainly make contact and the branch will be more than happy to come out and set up a session with them. That is an ongoing thing, and I guess there is, you know, depending on availability of resources and the number of volunteers who are available at any given time, they certainly have no problem trying to fill that kind of a basic need because the education is very important as to how people understand the legislation that affects them with regard to their accommodation.

You know, there are many acts of this Legislature that are out there that we as citizens of this province must know and understand because it affects us. They have that old saying that ignorance of the law is no defence, so it is everybody's responsibility to know the legislation. If the Residential Tenancies Branch can help with regard to the education because they are a mediator, and, of course, if they can do less mediating or when they do a mediation that they have basically a process that is well in place, it will make everybody's life a lot easier.

So the more education that is out there, the better.

Mr. Martindale: I know that the government is constantly being lobbied by landlords to get rid of rent control, and we have met with landlords on the same topic. I am wondering if the minister can tell me what it is that landlords want these days. Do they want to get rid of rent control entirely? Do they want to see the legislation amended? What is the government's response? Are you committed to rent control, or are you promising to get rid of it after the next election?

Mr. Pitura: I see the honourable member has asked for my personal opinion.

Landlords, certainly they have been lobbying the provincial government for larger increases in the rent control, but I look at the whole area and the number of years that rent controls have been in place. Certainly, you know, during the high inflationary periods, the rent increases were fairly substantial.

But the interesting thing about looking at rent controls and rent increases is that each and every year they go up. If you look through the recessionary years, they did not go down. So for all the landlords who would put a very positive argument for the justification of the rent increases going up, you can say, well, if you did not have rent increases and you had a very open, competitive market to try to rent out rental units, it, in fact, may have dropped, but everybody was faced with a uniform 1 percent increase. So my own personal viewpoint when I take a look at rental increases being patterned on that and we have control over the rental increase is that you may be controlling the minimum type of rise, but you also are creating a maximum.

That is one of the things that even as a bureaucrat working for the provincial government, was that every time we had maximum levels for the amount of dollars that you could recover for your meal expenses, okay, it was listed as a maximum, but it was really a minimum. Everybody claimed the maximum, so it became the minimum, and that is one of the things that if you take a look at the rent control guidelines, that indeed you are, and if you go back over the number of years, it has always gone up.

There are things in this society in terms of the economic competition that certainly during the recession went down. So as much as I can appreciate the arguments that are coming forward, you know, when rent controls are in place, I am not in a position at this point in time to be able to indicate to the member what the future has in store for rent controls. It is an issue that has to be collectively agreed to by the government of the day, and that is something that may indeed in the near future come up in discussion, or it may not.

So I really cannot give the member a straight answer on that one, as much as I would like to, but he certainly has had some of my own personal comments on it.

Mr. Martindale: I think the minister's answers just leave me confused because it sounded like he was defending rent control, but I did not hear him say that his government is irrevocably committed to keeping rent control in place. It sounds like the minister is kind of waffling on the issue of rent control. He is sort of defending it, but he is not saying that his government is committed to keeping it in place. One of the things that–[interjection]

An Honourable Member: So what is the position of Her Majesty's official opposition?

Mr. Martindale: We are committed to rent control.

An Honourable Member: That is on the record, I presume, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Martindale: Well, I will repeat it. The NDP is committed to keeping rent control in place. I do not have any problem putting that on the record. I was hoping to get the minister on the record, but I was not successful.

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One of the things that landlords do not tell us when they are lobbying us or maybe do not acknowledge or maybe do not want to acknowledge is something that tenants have figured out. For example, I met with tenants from, I believe, Roslyn Road. They had received rent increases, and they have done a lot of figuring on what goes into landlords' calculations, particularly when it comes to increased rent on the part of the landlords. What they pointed out to me, which was very, very interesting, is that every time the landlord justifies a rent increase because they have in the most common example spent money on capital improvements for a building, the rent goes up, and that becomes the new plateau. Any increases are based on that new plateau, but after the landlord recovers their costs from the rent, the rent does not go down. It stays at that plateau

I guess as long as the landlord is in a position of being able to raise the rent because of the rental market in their particular neighbourhood, they can take advantage of that. Now, obviously, that does not work if they cannot attract tenants, but if they are in an extremely attractive rental neighbourhood like Osborne Village, their revenue is constantly going up, not just because of recovering their capital costs but because of the new plateau.

I cannot even think of a question to ask on this because I see the staffperson nodding his head. Oh, well, I will let the minister respond. Does the minister agree with me that that is the case?

Mr. Pitura: Mr. Chair, the honourable member is talking about the rents and the rent increases. The thing that is missing out of the equation often when you are taking a look at having rent control increases is that one is always assuming there is 100 percent occupancy in all the rental units in Winnipeg, and that is far from reality.

The rental units in Winnipeg, of course, are driven largely by the market in terms of supply and demand. I think what the member pointed out, too, is that if you are in an area of the city that is a prime market area and you happen to own a rental accommodation there, the rent that is recouped on those units is probably a very healthy level of rent. If you are in an area where there just is not the attraction, then you are going to have to adjust your rents in order to be able to attract people to live there who feel it is a good deal.

That is still the basic driving force behind everything that we do in this province, is that ability of the market of supply and demand. You can argue that rent controls were put into place at a time when inflation was jumping along pretty good and you could argue justifiably that none of the properties warranted the huge rent increases that were being brought in, so rent controls tended to cushion that blow during the high inflation period. But, at the same time, every time you put in a government program of that type, you end up controlling it.

You have to sit back and wonder and take a look at the number of years where the rent increases have been regulated to 1 percent over history, and because of that fact, you look back and say, well, what if they were not there? What would have happened if they were not there? You always have to ask those questions. I find myself asking myself these questions in many aspects of everything that government has got itself involved in, is what would have happened if government had not been here and other forces were able to be exercised?

There are many areas in agriculture I ask that question as to where we would be today in many areas of our agricultural industry–

An Honourable Member: All the farmers would be bankrupt.

Mr. Pitura: Well, the member's opinion is that many farmers would be bankrupt, but there may also be the opposite side, that agriculture may have been totally different than what it is today. So I will leave it at that, Mr. Chairman.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Is there agreement to call it six o'clock? [agreed]

The hour being six o'clock, committee rise.