Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. Does the honourable Minister of Northern Affairs have an opening statement?

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): I do. Mr. Chair, since I became Minister of Northern Affairs in January '97, my office doors have been wide open to all. I have welcomed and delight in meeting a wide range of people and am eager to sit down with representatives from any aboriginal organization that wants to share its views and concerns with me. This is part of the way I have worked as a minister; it is part of the policies of my department and our government. I have appreciated the friendships I have made and the co-operation extended to me when I have gone into aboriginal communities and met with leaders and community organizations. In the past two years I have developed co-operative trust and relationships with many aboriginal leaders and organizations. These relationships, these partnerships have been critical for building solutions to complex issues, issues identified by aboriginal people, leaders and communities as being critical and fundamental for their well-being and their communities' future.

As minister, my approach and Manitoba's approach to important issues has taken several forms. Let me outline some of the key ones. One is reasoned discussion with reasonable people about their issues and their concerns. Another is building and sharing a vision of where we are going and where we should be going and where our partners want to go. Another fundamental point is ensuring that governments and the private sector recognize and appreciate the problems and needs of Manitoba's aboriginal peoples and communities. I have enjoyed talking and working with aboriginal leaders with a value-driven vision and those who want to move forward.

Our government has worked very hard to fulfill our commitment to building relationships that could lead to ongoing discussions and, where appropriate, formal negotiations. This includes working with organizations, communities and government departments and other governments to break down or by-pass barriers to achieving realistic solutions to current challenges. We have made a concerted effort to ensure that our northern communities are healthy and sustainable through improvements in community infrastructure and helping communities move toward local autonomy.

In addition, we have worked with aboriginal organizations and other levels of government to develop policies, programs and services for Manitoba's urban aboriginal community. In this connection, Mr. Chair, I would like to discuss some highlights in policy and implications of Manitoba's urban aboriginal policy which we announced several weeks ago. Our approach will involve for the first time a partnership of the province, the federal government, the aboriginal community and the City of Winnipeg to develop and implement innovative solutions to aboriginal issues. We believe, as well, that Manitoba is the first province to adopt a policy respecting off-reserve aboriginal people. As the First Minister said in enunciating the basis and purpose behind this policy, quote: No single issue is of more importance to the sustainability of our province in the new millennium than the well-being of our aboriginal peoples. Our government has recognized and is acting on this challenge.

Mr. Chair, the policy involves a fundamental shift in the thinking and practice of the Manitoba government respecting aboriginal programs and services. Traditionally, the approach to community development was that government developed policy, set program limits, rules or guidelines and decided which services would be provided and how. We are shifting to a new approach. It will emphasize community participation and a partnership of governments and community, specifically a new working partnership with urban aboriginal groups in the city. Our policy has evolved out of the work of the Manitoba Round Table on Sustainable Development. Both the round table and the government recognize the need to address the needs of Manitoba's urban aboriginal population. Although many aboriginal people in Winnipeg are well established and contributing to the community, many others are not sharing and are not benefiting from our current healthy provincial economy.

After extensive public consultations, the Manitoba Round Table on Sustainable Development issued a report at the end of May of last year called Toward a Strategy for Aboriginal People Living in Winnipeg. This proposal for an Urban Aboriginal Strategy contains a number of major recommendations in strengthening aboriginal participation and bringing aboriginal people into the community decision-making process.

At that time, I made a personal and public commitment to have the government promise to respond to the strategy by looking at policy implications and an implementation process. This, I am pleased to state, has been done. The government asked all affected departments to examine the spirit and content of the recommendations and submit implementation recommendations. This stage is now being completed. The government has been given a mandate to proceed and we are ready to move forward. We are now inviting the community and all interested parties to join us as partners in the implementation process. From this invitation, we hope to be able to form a team to work in reasoned, good-faith ways to accomplish long-term goals that will benefit the aboriginal community and all Manitobans. The policy is intended to deal with the challenge presented by the fact that current programs and services for aboriginal people fall short of allowing the aboriginal community to participate fully in Winnipeg's economy and society. We will use the value of partnership to make necessary changes and adjustments in these programs.

We are pleased that our partners are willing to work with us to address the challenges this situation places upon us. We are pleased that they share a recognition that new approaches involving partnerships with the aboriginal community and other levels of government are needed to make the substantial and significant impact required to ensure long-term solutions for the sustainable development of aboriginal people in Winnipeg. Together we will implement a vision that includes aboriginal people and their perspectives on all local, provincial, national and global efforts towards sustainability of the economy, the Earth's environment, and our social well-being.

With respect to the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, we are committed to the following: first, adopting a holistic and cross-sectoral approach to community development of the aboriginal people; second, developing an action and implementation plan in partnership with the aboriginal community, Canada and the City of Winnipeg, based on key recommendations of the round table report. Those plans would identify capacity within the aboriginal community, and departmental resources and timelines could be identified and allocated, consistent with this new approach to community development; finally, identifying and strengthening initiatives already begun that are consistent with the round table's report.

To implement the policy, the partners will do the following: establish specific objectives for implementation, identify specific measures and initiatives needed to implement the objectives, include appropriate time frames and provide adequate resources. Manitoba is working to establish an Urban Aboriginal Strategy implementation committee which we will invite our partners to join. From this partnership, and the processes in which we will work together, I am confident that we will increase the effectiveness of programs and services for urban aboriginal people in Winnipeg. I also believe we will have the will, the mandate, and the resources to succeed in facilitating the full participation by aboriginal people in the economic and social life of Winnipeg.

Mr. Chair, our government has worked with our partners to facilitate the unleashing of the enormous unrealized potential in the aboriginal community, especially in aboriginal youth and women, that could be used to build sustainable communities for future generations. So what are our objectives, and how have we worked to achieve them?

We have worked to settle long-standing historical matters, such as treaty land entitlement in the Northern Flood Agreement. To date, 13 First Nations have signed treaty entitlement agreements under the framework agreement that was signed in 1997 with the federal government and the TLE committee representing 19 TLE First Nations. Three others have ratified the framework agreement but have not executed their specific treaty entitlement agreements. These are in addition to the seven individual agreements that were signed before the framework agreement. The TLE process is working towards concluding 27 TLE claims that have been validated in Manitoba.

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Mr. Chair, the land selection and acquisition process is underway for all the TLE bands that have signed agreements. In total, nearly 1.1 million acres of Crown land are available for selection by the entitlement First Nations, and just over 170,000 acres are available for acquisition through purchase.

This is the land situation to date: 678,182 acres have been selected; 572,393 acres are under review; and 105,789 acres have been transferred to Canada to be designated as reserve lands. Most of this transferred land concerns the four First Nations at Island Lake. Four of the five NFA First Nations have signed comprehensive implementation agreements to settle outstanding arbitration claims and implement the agreement. The combined value of settlements is $220 million.

Under the terms of the trusts, at least $125 million will be maintained in the trust for the benefit of present and future band members. The agreements provide for a total of 168,100 acres of land to be transferred to the First Nations. This will become reserve land. In addition, the First Nations will be able to obtain about 4,800 acres of permit or fee-simple land.

Individually, control of implementing the agreements was placed with the First Nation. This is accomplished through a community approval process for agreement related projects, and a requirement that each First Nation report annually to its members on trust expenditures. To ensure that these trusts will produce benefits for future generations and maintain stability and self-sustainability, there are provisions for long-term preservation of the lands held in trust. The resource company management boards provided for under these agreements have been established. These boards will make recommendations respecting land use and resource management for the resource areas identified under the individual agreements.

We are continuing our efforts to reach an NFA settlement with Cross Lake First Nation. In the meantime, we have established several programs for Cross Lake, in co-operation with Manitoba Hydro and representatives of the First Nation. We will continue to work with the First Nation and develop more programs over time, related to NFA implementation. We expect that resource company management will be a subject of future discussions with Cross Lake. We have worked to develop new approaches and solutions to issues such as child and family services, justice, gaming, revenue sharing and tobacco taxes and revenue rebates and fuel taxes.

Mr. Chair, out of 61 First Nations, there are 29 native gaming commissions representing 31 First Nations. Manitoba is negotiating Native Gaming Agreements with five First Nations. Nine have no on-reserve gaming activity. In addition, between November 1992 and March 1995, Manitoba entered into a video lottery terminal siteholder agreement with 15 First Nations with each of them, and there are now 331 VLTs on reserve land. This program was a major incentive to First Nations to get their on-reserve gaming licence through agreement or group licence with the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission.

The 1998-99 Gaming Control Commission figures show that gaming activity on reserves generated revenues for the reserves of $12.2 million. This figure is expected to increase by 65 percent to $20.1 million in the present fiscal year.

Turning to the tobacco tax, '97-98, estimated rebates for aboriginal people were $7.1 million. Fuel tax exemptions were worth an estimated $1.6 million. Municipal tax sharing with First Nations and Northern Affairs communities' percentage of provincial corporation tax was also ongoing.

We have developed partnerships with the business community, aboriginal organizations and communities, and the federal government to facilitate career and training opportunities for aboriginal students and graduates. One such an initiative is the federal-Manitoba Partners for Careers program. This outstanding program has placed more than 550 aboriginal graduates in permanent jobs.

With our federal partners, Human Resources Development Canada, we are increasing funding for this program to increase aboriginal participation in meaningful workplace jobs. This will make possible the placement of about 700 aboriginal graduates a year over the next two years.

We are implementing the Aboriginal Education and Training Strategy. Its goals are to increase the aboriginal rate of graduation from high schools and post-secondary programs and increase employment rates among aboriginal Manitobans. We are working with the private sector, particularly major industries, to increase access for northern young people to opportunities in all economic sectors, including mining, forestry, and Manitoba Hydro installations. Our goal is to increase northern participation in these major fields and integrate the economy of northern communities with these industries.

Initiatives are in place to enable northern and aboriginal young people to participate in training programs leading to job opportunities. One example is the Aboriginal Public Administration Program, which is designed to recruit and introduce qualified aboriginal people, especially youths, to the systems and processes of government. Six persons will be recruited into two-year internship positions. Through a combination of work placements and formal training courses they will become a pool of aboriginal talent that will be made available for permanent positions in Manitoba's civil service. Another example is the Manitoba Hydro internship program, which was scheduled to enroll 20 aboriginal Manitobans in its next phase, which is just getting underway.

I should also mention Hydro's North Central power line, a $154-million project, cost-shared with the federal government and conducted in partnership with several First Nations in northern communities. It has brought secure electric power to several thousand aboriginal Manitobans, the largest population of remotely located aboriginal people in Canada to be connected in this way. This project has provided community and economic development opportunities.

We are now considering the construction of a road up the east side of Lake Winnipeg. Using the North Central power line as a model, it would be a partnership with the federal government, the private sector, and northern communities.

In Health, many initiatives are under development or implementation or in the consultation stage. Manitoba Health is preparing a comprehensive aboriginal health strategy. It focuses on addressing crisis issues such as diabetes and tuberculosis, co-operation with the federal government, early diagnosis and prevention, and better co-ordination of aboriginal health services.

An extensive multigovernment and community consultation process has led to the development of a Manitoba diabetes strategy emphasizing prevention and early intervention. We are looking for ways to partner with the federal government to reduce the serious rate of diabetes in our aboriginal population.

The province has strongly supported the Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre in Winnipeg. Physician services, education, out-reach, and culturally sensitive service from an aboriginal perspective are offered at the centre.

The Children and Youth Secretariat is co-ordinating the efforts of several departments to reduce the incidence of fetal alcohol syndrome, or FAS, and alcohol-related effects. An FAS strategy is in place to reduce the number of children born with FAS and assist caregivers and service providers in their work with FAS-affected children. The strategy and related initiatives emphasize awareness, early intervention or prevention. One program, Stop FAS, focuses completely on prevention by providing information and therapy to pregnant women at high risk of delivering an FAS-affected child.

In addition to specific hands-on programming, information materials have been developed and disseminated in a variety of print and electronic formats. Manitoba is working with Saskatchewan and Alberta on the prairie provinces FAS initiative. This involves sharing Best Practices and resource materials, developing joint strategies, initiatives, and the exchange of information through an annual conference.

In Family Services, the department is developing its Urban Aboriginal Strategy on Child and Family Services in consultation with aboriginal groups. This initiative will emphasize building the capacity of the community to care for its members through neighbourhood networks, skill-sharing and co-ordination of neighbourhood resources. The goal is to reduce the number of aboriginal children in Winnipeg in agency care.

In Justice, we have worked with First Nations, individual communities and aboriginal organizations to develop initiatives in policing, court services and community corrections. These initiatives emphasize positive outreach and connections to communities and crime prevention. They recognize and respect aboriginal culture and try to incorporate those beliefs into programs and operations.

We have negotiated policing services agreements with five First Nations and are working on others this year. Among the dozens of community justice committees throughout Manitoba, 17 are based in or serve aboriginal communities. The first committee in Manitoba was formed on Roseau River First Nation in 1976. We financially support the Ganawenimig Safety and Prevention Program of Child Find Manitoba which focuses on measures to assist missing or runaway aboriginal youths. Manitoba Justice has appointed some 20 aboriginal magistrates to provide local decision making respecting certain kinds of cases. One of our oldest aboriginal programs is the Aboriginal Court Worker Program. The court workers in Winnipeg and seven other communities assist accused aboriginal persons before, during and after court appearances. We have worked with a number of First Nations to set up sentencing circles which provide advice to a presiding judge or appropriate sentences for offenders.

With the federal government, we support the Aboriginal Ganootamaagee Justice Services of Winnipeg which is designed to divert aboriginal adults from the mainstream court system to community-based dispositions of offences. They remain accountable but in a different forum from a courtroom.

Another federal-Manitoba project is the Hollow Water community holistic healing program which focuses on sexual abuse intervention with offenders, victims and their families. It has been very innovative and effective in dealing with the challenging tragic problem of generational sexual abuse.

The province supports the Urban Sports Camp operated by the Winnipeg Native Alliance which offers an alternative to criminal and gang activity for urban youths. Most of the participants are aboriginal. The community is very proud of this camp which, by developing the leadership potential of young people, has greatly increased the self-confidence of participants and enables them to set a strong positive example to younger children in their neighbourhoods.

Manitoba also supports the Salvation Army's Weetamah Youth Initiative which offers recreational facilities and services for inner city Winnipeg young people. This program is also designed as an alternative to gang activity.

In sport and recreation, we have provided support for an innovative initiative, the Manitoba Aboriginal Sport and Recreation Council, to remove barriers and improve access to sport and recreation and promote activities in communities. We also champion the successful efforts of Manitoba aboriginal organizations to have the 2002 North American Indigenous Games staged in Manitoba. As soon as Manitoba was awarded the games, we committed $1 million to support the preparations which will take place in the next three years.

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This summer at the Pan American Games, 10 highly qualified aboriginal young people will take part in an internship program organized through the Aboriginal Single Window initiative which Manitoba supports. The program will enable the participants to learn important points about organizing and running a major festival. This should prove useful for development of skills and experience needed to organize and manage the Indigenous Games.

With aboriginal organizations and the federal government, we have also developed several tripartite processes to discuss and build initiatives of concern to specific aboriginal communities. We have a tripartite process with the federal government and Sioux Valley First Nation on negotiation of self-government for this First Nation. Sioux Valley has invited Manitoba to the table, and the province is considered to be making a significant contribution to the development of a self-government agreement.

We have another tripartite process with the Manitoba Metis Federation dealing with a wide range of issues and concerns identified by the MMF and Metis communities. Among them are economic development, education and training, child and family services, housing, children and youth, health and justice. We also have a tri-partite relationship with the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg which includes the Urban Aboriginal Strategy consultations conducted by the Manitoba Round Table on Sustainable Development.

On April 1, 1999, as a result of tripartite negotiations involving two First Nations, new Child and Family Services agencies were mandated to serve each of Peguis and Norway House First Nations. The Winnipeg Development Agreement, of which the province is a partner, has helped to fund a number of aboriginal initiatives in the core area of Winnipeg, including the Neeginan project and the Aboriginal Centre of Winnipeg.

Two fundamental points about all of these initiatives is that they involve aboriginal people in developing policies and strategies and they respond to concerns expressed by aboriginal people, organizations and communities.

On a bilateral basis, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs is a partner in a memorandum of understanding with the province concerning endangered spaces. The AMC also is working in partnership with the Department of Natural Resources in matters affecting elk ranching. In addition, we recently increased aboriginal representation on the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development from two to five. We have worked to increase involvement and participation by the business community in opening up opportunities for aboriginal people.

In government, an aboriginal development consultant for aboriginal economic development, Industry, Trade and Tourism, has enhanced the department's ability to work effectively with the aboriginal individuals and communities and support aboriginal initiatives. As part of an initiative to develop an information base on services and programs available to aboriginal people, the OTA-MISKA manual resource directory describing provincial, federal and private programs of benefit to aboriginal people has been compiled for distribution in government and to the public.

Aboriginal tourism is a priority area for the tourism, policy and development branch. We have assisted the efforts of the Manitoba Aboriginal Tourism Association to develop a strategic plan and will work with individual entrepreneurs and communities to develop an aboriginal tourism policy that creates opportunities for aboriginal people in the industry.

So where will all these activities lead us? We want the aboriginal community to be an integral part of our economic, social and political decision-making process. We are committed to consider the aboriginal community in the development of government policies and priorities. I am pleased that the business com-munity is exemplified by such companies as the Royal Bank and Manitoba Hydro who have taken a leadership role in presenting a more inclusive face to aboriginal people and taking initiatives and working with aboriginal entrepreneurs.

Next, I would like to outline my own vision for the future which I have worked to achieve as a minister and member of this government. My department and I are working to see the North emerge as the next frontier for major socioeconomic development with thriving, sustainable, healthy communities and vigorous economic activity throughout the region. I want to see the aboriginal people re-emerge as the pre-eminent culture in Manitoba which they celebrate together with all Manitobans in our wonderful rich multicultural community. I want to see aboriginal Manitobans all across the province enjoy a quality of life and all its aspects consistent with all cultural groups in Manitoba.

I hope by the year 2025 to see the following objectives realized: increase aboriginal student graduation and stay-in-school rates to the provincial norm, increase aboriginal workforce participation rates to the provincial norm, increase aboriginal employment rates to the provincial norm, increase income and home ownership levels of aboriginal Manitobans to the provincial norm, reduce hospitalization rates and incidence of diabetes, heart, kidney, and respiratory illnesses to the provincial norm, reduce use of social assistance and child welfare to the provincial norm, and reduce aboriginal rates of incarceration to the provincial norm.

Our government recognizes the federal government has a major role to play in making these goals achievable. We hope to work effectively with Ottawa in these long-term goals, just as we have done in the initiatives I have outlined here. We and other provinces look forward to participation by national aboriginal organizations in implementing the Social Union Framework Agreement whenever such implementation affects aboriginal people.

Manitoba also looks forward to committed effective participation by Ottawa in a process with other provincial and territorial governments and aboriginal organizations to develop and implement programs that will ensure healthy sustainable aboriginal communities across Canada in the future. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) and I continue to work with our federal and provincial colleagues to advance a comprehensive aboriginal strategy and a national average on youth strategy. This is a Manitoba approach that has been adopted by our provincial and federal partners. Madam Chair, our government is fulfilling its commitment to meet and work with aboriginal people in a reasoned nonconfrontational environment to discuss issues and work in partnership to achieve solutions.

Madam Chair, I would like to turn to an important initiative concerning our Northern Affairs communities and their futures in the next century. Last August, the government approved my department's self-reliance initiative which is also known as the Sustainable Communities initiative. It is designed to help communities attain their vision and reach their goals through self-reliance, achieving social and economic sustainability and independence in administering their local affairs. The initiative supports organizational development and community-based governance and decision-making structures aimed at achieving self-reliance, choice and control at the local level. It creates incentives for communities to look at methods of creating local revenue and explore alternative cost-effective ways to deliver services.

As an example, one community had a problem with its water intake. If an outside consultant or contractor had been hired to do the necessary repairs, the cost would have been more than $10,000. However, they decided to use local residents and their skills and expertise, result: problem fixed at a cost of $2,000 to $3,000. The same community was able to change the way it hired heavy equipment. They used to grab whatever equipment was available, but now they go after the most appropriate machinery for the work required. This maximizes the funds they have to provide municipal services. This year an additional $976,000 will be allocated to assist communities under this initiative. The funding reflects our commitment to share responsibility for funding for municipal services. The funding is based on a formula that incorporates principles of sustainability, accountability, shared responsibility, fairness, and consistency.

We have also tried to be sensitive to the geographic circumstances of individual communities. These measures will ensure greater responsibility and control at the local level as well as sufficient capacity to provide sustainable municipal services in the future. Madam Chair, the self-reliance initiative is the foundation for renewed emphasis on community development from a holistic perspective that encourages capacity building at the community level and supports social development directed at the mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual well-being of northern communities.

As I have said here and to other audiences, Manitoba cannot truly enjoy a high quality of life until all our citizens can participate fully in society. The self-reliance initiative is an effort to secure this status for Northern Affairs communities through a combination of skilled human resources, long-term viability of essential social programs and services, investment in infrastructure, and community development and innovation.

In addition a co-ordinated effort and commitment from other government departments and agencies will help give communities the ability to determine priorities and develop economic initiatives and strategies for community development. As of June 1, 14 communities identified for participation in the initiative have signed the 1999 partnership agreements. This represents all Phase 1 and six Phase 2 communities. There are 20 communities that do not meet basic qualification to be considered part of the initiative. My staff are suggesting to these communities that they develop alternatives through such measures as co-operation with neighbouring communities and amalgamation of larger communities or other steps involving their own region.

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As of April 1 we reached a milestone, not only under the initiative, but also under The Northern Affairs Act itself. Ever since the act became law in 1974 it has provided for incorporation of Northern Affairs communities. On April 1 South Indian Lake became the first community to take the steps to incorporation. I attended the ceremony in the community and want to put it on record that I was very impressed with the careful work of the mayor and council in putting together a detailed five-year strategic plan to guide the operations of South Indian Lake after achieving independence. As a result of incorporation, communities like South Indian Lake will be able to act like other municipalities in the province in key matters like charting their own course, setting and executing priorities for services and capital projects, and working to achieve a sustainable local economy for their residents. As the status of participating communities evolves or changes, the role of my department will change from actually being local government to being a consultant and adviser.

We have stressed to mayors, councillors, and residents that incorporation will not change a community's ability to ask for and obtain assistance and advice from Northern Affairs staff. Madam Chair, the North has a bright future, a future that is being enhanced because of the prospects for final resolution of treaty land entitlement and Northern Flood Agreement issues for our First Nations. However, all our northern communities need the flexibility and freedom of action that is needed to secure their futures in a highly competitive global economy. They will need to work together to build economically and socially sustainable communities. This may mean partnerships with economic sectors such as mining or with one or more players in that industry, with other major players, with other communities, and with government. We believe the self-reliance initiative will give Northern Affairs communities the tools they need to secure their futures in the next century. We are working with industry and First Nations to foster a spirit of partnership in northern Manitoba.

Thank you for the opportunity to give that opening statement.

The Acting Chairperson (Mrs. Driedger): We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition acting critic, the honourable member for Thompson, have any opening comments?

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I want to indicate that I am indeed the acting critic. I do want to indicate that our critics, actually, because we have critics, both aspects of the portfolio, may wish to make additional comments later on. With that I would like to make a number of comments myself, certainly both as the acting critic, and I think we are both acting critics, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) and I, on this particular department. We will be making comments today, but I do want to indicate that I know our critic will probably have some comments to make as well. I certainly appreciate that.

What I want to do is start in terms of reflecting on a little bit of the history of this department and what we feel needs to be its future in the next period of time. This department exists because of the vision of the Schreyer government. It exists because of the work of the first Schreyer NDP government in 1969. I would also like to give credit too to Gordon Beard who sat as a Conservative until the early part of 1969, quit out of frustration with the Conservative Party at that time, and then actually came back in the general election as the member for Churchill in 1969. Very few people recall that there was a minority government at that time. One of the issues that Gordon Beard was very vocal on was the need for a department of northern affairs.

I think it is important to reflect on that history, because it was an incredible vision at that time, now 30 years ago. Up until that point in time, the North had developed through a number of sort of different stages.

The most significant development of course was 1912 in which the boundaries of Manitoba were extended to northern Manitoba. A lot of people are not aware of this, but I almost could have been an MLA in Saskatchewan, historically. Same thing with the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). At one point in time, in the 1880s, northern Manitoba, as it is currently constituted, was part of the district of Saskatchewan. In fact, the districts went east-west, which made a lot of sense because of the river systems.

Really one of the trade-offs that occurred in the extension in 1912, the extension by the way that also took place simultaneously with the extension of Ontario and Quebec, was very much a trade-off in that case for The Pas in ensuring that there would be significant provincial government presence in northern Manitoba.

I indicate that because by the time 1969 came around, the North had developed in various different ways. You had the First Nations communities, obviously having been in the North for thousands of years. There is increasing evidence of the civilizations that they are based on, new findings. But you are also reflecting very much on the development of the Hudson Bay rail line, mining, et cetera.

Now I do not want to spend too much time on that, other than to say by the time 1969 came along, you had a situation in which the North was basically neglected by the provincial government of the day. It was reflected politically. Obviously at that time northerners, in many cases for the first time, voted for the NDP, in fact, four out of the five seats, in an area that traditionally had had a strong Conservative support base, particularly in the First Nations communities. One of the visions of the NDP at the time was to develop infrastructure, was to develop communities, and was to understand that in northern Manitoba one had to use unique approaches to dealing with unique problems, and I believe unique opportunities as well.

The origins of the Department of Northern Affairs were quite simply to provide, initially, a level of local government in unorganized communities. That was the origins of the Department of Northern Affairs. In fact, the first ministers, including up to this point in time, have traditionally been responsible and continue to be responsible for what used to be called the Metis communities, and are often referred to now as Northern Affairs communities, basically the communities that are not First Nations communities and not the industrial communities.

Well, with the addition of the Native Affairs component to the minister's portfolio, that broadened in the 1980s to include aboriginal concerns, both on and off reserve, and in many cases aboriginal concerns in areas that had not necessarily been recognized as being the jurisdiction of the province, but reflecting the fact that all Manitobans are Manitobans. There are First Nations, Metis, nonaboriginal. I think that was fairly significant.

What I have always found ironic in a way is that to many people in my home community of Thompson, they often view the Minister of Northern Affairs as being their minister too, even though technically that has often not been the case, even though many ministers of Northern Affairs have not always focused in on those needs. I think that vision at the time worked. I think its success is being shown today, but I think we need a new vision. I was pleased that the minister put forward his own personal vision because I am a strong believer in the need for all organizations and particularly government to be driven very much by a vision and through the development of plans to accomplish that vision.

I just want to look back at what we have accomplished–infrastructure in northern communities, airstrips, internal roads, housing. Many of those date back to the foundation of the Department of Northern Affairs in the '70s, and one can still travel to those communities and people still remember the activities of the Schreyer government at the time and then later the Pawley government. One saw the development of organizations, once again the Schreyer period, NACC, to give a forum to people in Northern Affairs communities to be able to lobby, to be able to develop plans within their own communities, and that was very successful.

But there were also other components, too, which did not necessarily come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs, which, unfortunately, I believe, in the last decade, have been lost. I do not blame this minister, but there was a tendency in this government in its early stage to have a knee-jerk reaction opposing I think some of the most innovative and successful programs we have seen in northern Manitoba, in northern communities generally. These were a lot of the Education and Training programs. Part of it, of course, was federal cuts. That has been a problem, but, you know, the erosion of New Careers, for example, very much a part of the Schreyer NDP plan for the North, getting people off welfare, into upgrading, into training and into jobs. We have people who have been through that program in this Legislature. In fact, the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) both went through the program and became an instructor along with Limestone training.

The Access programs, very much a fundamental part of that, and they have been eroded once again as well, those programs once again recognizing the unique needs of northern Manitoba, the fact that many people in the northern communities simply have not had the educational opportunities that other Manitobans have had. Twenty or 30 years ago, you had to leave the community for the most basic level of schooling. The minister I know will be aware of the residential schools, but even today there are northern communities where there is no high school because of the size of the community, and that leads to people leaving the community or not being able to complete even secondary education, and they are a decade-long plus. In fact, in the case of Buntep, we are talking now 20 years-plus of success stories.

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I include even such things as the Limestone training program which did a lot of training that was often ignored. Many of the people who worked at Limestone, many of them worked in their own community. I am sure if the minister would care to check with people in a lot of the northern communities, a lot of the training came from that period of time, some very significant aspects that, again, have been eroded.

The Northern Youth Corps, which I think was an excellent program, was cut a number of years ago. It provided young people in many cases the only access to paid employment that they would be able to have in a post-school situation, and we are seeing very difficult circumstances now. Even recreation programs, it was not that long ago you could get a learn-to-swim program. Guess what, Mr. Chairperson, it was cut by the provincial government.

I can continue. The friendship centres, in 1993 when the government hit a financial crunch–yes, let us put it on the table. They had the highest deficit in Manitoba history, but they went after the friendship centres, eliminated all the core funding. I still remember one of the Conservative ministers at this time saying, well, maybe the friendship centres should charge membership fees. Well, I tried to explain to the minister this is not a golf course. This is not a social club. I say that because I know this minister is working with friendship centres, and I would certainly encourage him to look at the reinstatement of the core funding, but I know he is working in a co-operative basis.

And this government now, belatedly, after 11 years in government is discovering that the friendship centres that they cut in 1993 are actually useful partners and have the kind of credibility not only with the broader aboriginal community, because the friendship centres are very much committed to that. When I say broader, I mean First Nations, Metis, nonstatus, but also in the broader community as well.

I know the Ma-Mow-We-Tak Friendship Centre in my own community has an excellent reputation both in terms of program delivery and also within the community. It is a very important part of our community.

Now, I want to run through this because this is, in fact, very much the kind of legacy we have seen. I will tell you, within the direct jurisdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs, this minister, to his credit, was able to get an increased allocation for capital. I welcome that, because one of the saddest things we saw in northern Manitoba was during the federal-provincial infrastructure programs, the government, rather than up-fronting its capital to access additional federal funding, the government at that time did nothing other than stick with existing funding and we ended up with a lost opportunity, I think, to greatly accelerate the capital infrastructure development of northern communities.

I credit the minister, because that was the first significant increase that has taken place in the capital budget in quite some time. That is very much an important part of it. But what we have seen is an erosion on the economic side as well. I want to put this on the record. I welcome, by the way, the fact that the minister actually recognized in his comments something a lot of other ministers do not. That is that northern Manitoba does not reflect, say, the situation south of Highway 1. I mean, Morden-Winkler may have a zero percent unemployment rate effectively. I know people who live in those communities. That is the reality. That is not the case in northern Manitoba. Not only that, compared to 10-11 years ago, we no longer have Limestone.

This government, I forgot to mention this government was responsible for the cancellation of Conawapa, another fiasco that ended up with them in court with Ontario Hydro. They had a choice of a five-year delay and they chose a cancellation. This has still been subject to litigation, but that provided a lot of opportunities. I do note and I know this is not the right committee even though this is the right minister to be raising this with, I know there are some very good discussions taking place between Hydro and a number of northern communities, which I certainly welcome, which are aimed at preparing possible dam developments in terms of the preliminary work. Also what I am very encouraged to see, something that I have been arguing for quite some time is direct involvement by the communities themselves.

The fact is, there are a number of communities that have an excellent opportunity to participate in that sort of development, but I want to stress that you have a situation where Hydro is inactive, mining is not. This is not Energy and Mines section of the committee, but the minister is quite aware of the very great difficulties of the mining industry. Some encouraging signs, there are good predictions ahead for resource industries, for commodity prices. Those of us in the North who very much watch the price of nickel or copper or zinc will have to be shown it to be the case before we will believe it. We have gone through some tough times, plummeting prices. I mean, the price of nickel hit $1.80 a pound, less than half of what it was just a few years ago.

We are faced with real challenges. I have said this to the minister in his other capacity that we have to, I think, do a complete review and overhaul of the situation in the mining industry and whether it is us in government or this government over the next period of time, it has got to happen. We have got to reflect the rapidly changing nature of society. With the global economy we live in, you cannot simply review things once a decade. In some cases you have to do reviews every few years and in fact even yearly, because if we are behind in doing that other jurisdictions will take the lead, but the reality is that mining is down.

Forestry is probably the one bright spot, but even then there are always cyclical developments. I personally think there was a lost opportunity, this government's record, the sale of Manfor to Repap in terms of community input. I will be raising some questions on that because it is a big issue, a number of my communities that are now seeing the cut areas moving into their areas and are not receiving the kind of economic spin-offs they would like to see and the benefits, despite, I might add, some of the good work being done by CEDF on the forestry side. I have always been quick to give credit to that.

In terms of other economic development, quite frankly, and I think this is something the minister will hear from municipal officials, the government has not been flexible, the government has not listened to the objections of the fact that a number of programs that that might work in Morden-Winkler just simply are not appropriate for northern Manitoba. I know the Minister of Rural Development, we have raised this in the past, the number of programs that simply have not met those needs. The reality is that we are facing significant economic problems. Northern Manitoba varies between the highest rate of unemployment in the country, perhaps the second highest in some cases, certainly no lower than the third. That by the way is on figures that leave out a lot of people in northern communities who simply do not even register as being unemployed anymore. They have given up. That is a real concern to me.

We have seen losses in other areas. For example, on the rail system, far fewer jobs in northern Manitoba than we had. The federal government has virtually abandoned northern Manitoba. There are very few jobs now located in communities like Thompson and other communities. The bottom line is we are certainly hurting economically.

If you look at the situation in northern Manitoba, it is almost the tale of two provinces. It is almost like that original dividing line in 1912, somehow the newer part of the province is continuously being left behind. We face chronic unemployment. We face a lack of appropriate services. I mean I could get into this government's neglect of our highway system. Health care, you know, our health care facilities seem to get hit time and time again. I mentioned this the other day where I had a constituent who had to be driven in from the lake only to find out the intensive care unit was closed in the Thompson General Hospital, and he had to be medivacked to Winnipeg. That is the kind of situation we face. Three weeks for a doctor's appointment for an urgent situation, six months for a medical checkup.

What we have seen is not only has the government not been reacting to a lot of these concerns in many cases, even in some of the areas that they did take the initiative, 1990, I believe it was, decentralization–now, there was a bit of a phoney element to that. I still remember seeing the figures on Thompson. I remember one time they jumped by 45 people, and I thought: this is great. I have always supported decentralization. It goes back to the Schreyer government. It was an important part of the Pawley government. I supported this government when they did it. The minister may not be aware of this, but what they did is they took all the employees at Kelsey who were considered to be part of the Winnipeg office and they went and they considered them to be part of the Thompson office. Not one single one of those employees lived in Thompson, but they were added on the books as part of the Thompson office. Well, the reality is since that time, we have seen more and more of those jobs that were supposedly moved out for decentralization eliminated, and we are actually seeing some recentralization. I know the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) has raised this, positions in Lynn Lake, I believe was one of them–

An Honourable Member: Flin Flon itself.

Mr. Ashton: –and Flin Flon itself are being recentralized. That I think is wrong. There is a real logic to decentralization. It has worked in some departments fairly well, but we have seen an erosion of it. I still remember, I raised this several years ago in committee, the minister responsible for decentralization at the time, I asked him to give me the figures of the number of employees of rural and northern Manitoba before and after decentralization. I never got those figures, and I know why. Because it is dramatically less, partly because of the overall downsizing of government, but partly because some of the much touted jobs that were decentralized are now in fact either back in Winnipeg or have been moved, in some cases from some of the smaller communities in some of the regional centres. I will put on the record that I do not want to see more jobs in Thompson at the expense of Lynn Lake. That is not what decentralization is all about.

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In terms of our vision for the North, I think it has to start from the reality. There are a lot of difficulties. Now I want to flip it around as well, because I think the North has a lot going for it. Where we do have resource industries, even if they are going through tough times, they tend to be high value-added. Quite frankly the mining industry, if it was not for mining, our economy would not be much different from Newfoundland. A lot of people are not aware of this, but you want to talk about the reality of this province, the average industrial wage in Winnipeg is lower than St. John's, Newfoundland, one of the lowest in the country. What is the difference between us and Newfoundland? Well, the big difference is in terms of unemployment. They have a much higher rate of unemployment, or in this case we have more value-added industries. Now that is changing somewhat with Hybernia. We will have to see what happens with Voisey's Bay, but a lot of it comes, partly from agriculture, but the fact is northern Manitoba has been a net contributor to this province time and time again, notwithstanding the economic difficulties. I want to put this on the record by the way too, because this is often neglected.

Now you want to take southwest Manitoba and northern Manitoba. This is before the current farm crisis. Which area of the province has the largest transfers from government? Most people would say the North. You know what, it is southwest Manitoba. The difference is, whether it be in terms of farm programs or other government transfers, people do not see it that directly, because there is not a high rate of unemployment in southwest Manitoba, but the degree to which northern Manitoba is dependent overall on the rest of the province or the rest of the country I think is often assumed to be far greater than it really is. We produce. We are net contributors to this province in terms of the value-added and, historically, even when we have tough times we still contribute in terms of income taxes and sales taxes and even mining royalties. We are not paying a heck of a lot right now, but in 1988 one of the reasons the budget we brought in–and you can argue about who should be responsible for this. It would have been a surplus if the money had not been drained out in 1988-89. It was because of Inco alone, it contributed $120 million in a single year. So this sense of the North being dependent, I think, is greatly overstated. In reality, one of the problems is we have a dual economy.

Now as an economist, I could get into some more of the background in terms of what a dual economy really is, but I see it in my own community and I see it between different communities. We have a high wage sector, and then we have people living in poverty. What concerns me is we are seeing more people slip from one end to the other. I see a lot of sons, daughters of the resource-based industry employers, they cannot get into the resource-based industry. They are now into careers at McDonald's, and no offence to the McDonald's, but we all know that the restaurant business pays significantly lower than resource businesses. So we are seeing slippage of that.

We have seen a continuing growth in a potential labour force, but we are seeing more and more of a gap between the growing number of young people, especially young aboriginal people, in the labour force, and that is a real challenge. But you know, I want to flip that around again. It is a challenge but you know I think in Manitoba, and I will put this on the record right now, I think we should be starting to focus on the aboriginal advantage. I have used that phrase and I will use it again, and I want to put this very bluntly to residents of the city of Winnipeg. Without two factors, Winnipeg would be in decline right now. Large parts of Winnipeg would be ghost towns in various different neighbourhoods because of our static population growth. If it were not for the increasing number of immigrants–and I believe we need more immigrants to this province–and the net migration into cities of aboriginal people, our population in the city here–and I say our population because even though I am a resident of Thompson, we have a direct interest in the health of the capital region and our capital city–our population would have declined in the city.

Personally, by the way, I believe in the vision that the mayor of the City of Winnipeg has put up and many people in the business community, the 750,000-person target. I think moderate population growth in this case creates markets, creates business opportunities, creates economic opportunities. But you know, where is the labour force going to come with the demographic patterns that we are dealing with? It is going to come, by and large, from aboriginal people if we meet the challenge of providing education and the job opportunities that aboriginal young people are going to be looking for. That is going to be the key.

When I say it is an advantage, it appears to be a huge challenge right now. But without that growth in the aboriginal labour force and the growth in the aboriginal population, I think we would face slow and steady decline in the city and to a large extent the province as well. So my vision and our vision I think collectively–and I think the minister, despite our philosophical differences in some areas, from his own statement, we may be in some agreement on that. And I welcome by the way some of the joint ventures with business, et cetera, that are happening. That has got to be a key element, and I welcome some of the programs. He mentioned the Royal Bank. The bank is starting to recognize the importance of aboriginal people. The banks in communities like Thompson are starting to hire far more local people and particularly aboriginal people. I have seen a growing number of grads coming from KCC, for example. I was at the graduation on Friday, and I have seen a growing number of those grads being employed by the Royal Bank, for example, and other institutions. So that has got to be a key part of that development.

But you know, there is another aspect, too, and this is in terms of the vision. You know why I find it very encouraging is we are getting far more leadership from the aboriginal graduates of many of the programs that I talked about, the Access programs. This is where there has been some success in the last number of years. We have gone from virtually no aboriginal university graduates in Canada. The numbers were in the hundreds to the point now where we have thousands and tens of thousands; you know, northern Manitoba led the way. It is one of the proudest legacies of the Schreyer government, the Pawley government, the Access programs. We are starting to see many of those people now in leadership positions in the community.

One of the things they are instilling in a lot of young people that I see–I look at William Dumas [phonetic]for example who is a school teacher in Nelson House, very involved, I know the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) is quite aware of this–is the sense of pride. There is a rebuilding after decades of what can only be called cultural genocide in which virtually any evidence of aboriginal culture was alloyed or deliberately destroyed.

By the way, and I will say this on the record, I do not know if I completely agree with everything the minister said in Cross Lake, but one thing I thought he was quite appropriate on was–and I think the sort of appropriate expression here is that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. But to simply focus in on one player, in this case Hydro, as being involved in the destruction of a community and to leave out the role of some of the people obviously in the community, and I do not mean those people individually but their institutions, that left a terrible legacy and people do not realize. Residential schools, I mean, there are heart-rending stories. I talked to people in Nelson House who are still trying to find the unmarked graves of their kids who went 30 years ago to a residential school, and the heartlessness in which the people were not even informed of the death. They had to find out themselves when their kids did not come back. This is Canada of 20, 30 years ago.

You know, in today's age, we like to pretend we are not a racist society. We have a terrible history in some areas and particularly when it comes to aboriginal people. I think the minister's comments were well taken. There are a lot of Canadian institutions and a lot of levels of government that have to go through a process of rebuilding trust, and one of the things is rebuilding pride. I have said this to graduating classes. I think, once again, aboriginal people have a real advantage if they have a sense of their own culture and traditions and real pride in themselves, because they have no problem getting access to sort of mainstream culture in the world of the Internet, and satellite dishes are pretty well everywhere in northern communities today. If you focus in on that, it is really important.

You know what is interesting, you look at corporations now. Corporations are recognizing this, corporations in the United States, in particular, some of their leaders, in terms of diversity. You know what they want? They want people who can think in different ways culturally, because I have often said this. If you can survive in two cultures in Canada, you can relate much better to somebody overseas, even with trade, say, with China, or pick a country, anywhere, Ukraine, where people are functioning in their own language and culture and then trying to function in the global, often English-language-based culture. There is a real advantage. I am seeing that more and more with a lot of aboriginal people, but, you know, we have to start stating that as being a key part of what we are trying to do, which is to work with aboriginal people and aboriginal communities through the education process to rebuild a sense of culture and pride.

I want to go one step further than that. I am encouraged in some communities as a result of this kind of leadership. It may sound like a minor thing, but this is something I want to throw out as a challenge to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), because he did mention this as one of his targets, health care. One of the saddest examples of the loss of pride and the erosion of cultural traditions shows itself up most directly in terms of health care, shows itself up in terms of the suicide rate, which I see amongst a lot of young people, but the health conditions, too.

I am starting to see in some communities, and I recommend the minister look at what has happened in the Northern Affairs community of Thicket Portage, where a couple there who run a mission and a restaurant–there is actually a restaurant in Thicket Portage. The minister may have been to it. I know he has certainly visited Thicket Portage. But they started a community garden project, and people in the community started planting community gardens again. It was not that long ago that community gardens were a standard thing in northern Manitoba, 30 years ago. Imagine, community gardens.

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They are doing this in Wabowden, as well, by the way. The sad part is, in a way, we have all this clear-cut of the forestry there. The minister may be aware of this, but people have been actually farming in that area, farming, and faced recently, when somebody caught up with the fact that they could actually raise the fees, that they would have to pay on their lease for the year. In one case, it went I think from less than a hundred dollars to a couple of thousand dollars. One of the advantages when you have this farm is it sends the message to the whole community. They have a community garden in Wabowden and all the young people are getting involved with this.

It does not only provide you with food; it changes the concept you have of your lifestyle. Instead of going to the store and buying a bag of chips and a pop, you are now sort of taking some interest in that area, and I believe we have to do that. We have to emphasize community gardens, traplines again. The saddest thing I am seeing in a lot of communities, as well, and I will mention Bay Line communities that I represent. The grandparents worked 35 years on CN and trapped in their spare time. The parents worked 15 years with CN and were laid off, and trapped. The kids, nothing. No work on CN. Many of them would be 25, have had no significant work experience. I visited an elder a while ago who fit in that category. One of his family members, a nephew, committed suicide, and you wonder why, with the lack of opportunities that exist.

By the way, and I will raise this in the context of some other bills in this session, I can tell you my experience in a lot of the northern communities. I know the minister will bear this out. You know, there are not jobs in a lot of those communities, but people want to work. A lot of people want to work. There are more and more people, by the way, who are falling off from the vicious cuts of employment insurance that took place. They used to be able to work and qualify for UI, and now are not able to qualify for UI at all. People will work. They will work 10, 20 weeks. They will work whatever length of time they can, commercial fishing. That is the kind of thing that we are dealing with. We have to rebuild that sense, I believe, starting from some of the traditional activities.

We have to get kids going out. A brother of mine is a doctor in one of the communities actually, in the member for Flin Flon's (Mr. Jennissen) constituency. He remarked on the same thing. He said in the 10 years he has been in this community, this is a doctor for medical services, he has seen a decline in the number of people that are actually getting involved in traditional activities and in the workplace. That is something we have to be very concerned about.

We have to I think turn it around because if you take the opportunity to get people into that, growing food, getting out on the trapline, educating people about traditional techniques in terms of handicrafts, for example, you can develop useful social and work skills.

Now, the tie I am wearing right now, and I know this cannot be described in Hansard too well, this is from Baker Lake. You know, in the Northwest Territories, now Nunavut, they are doing a lot of things in terms of–I mean you can get a silk tie, with a northern design. Well, you can also get a lot of handicrafts. They are doing a lot of work on that.

We should be doing a heck of a lot more to develop those work skills in northern Manitoba before we lose it because, you know, a lot of the elders, and a lot of the women were elders, have significant skills in terms of doing mukluks and doing traditional handicrafts. It is being lost. Their daughters and granddaughters do not have that particular opportunity. In a way, the '60s, '70s and '80s brought a lot of good things from outside society in some ways, roads, good, bad, mixture, new technology, but what we have to do is act soon, I think, to build on some of the underlying cultural traditions and really work on a sense of pride.

Now, that is our vision, and I could probably spend quite a bit more time on that, but I do want to focus on a few things because I also believe, as an opposition critic, in giving credit where credit is due. I have been critical of a lot of things the government has done, and I am not criticizing this minister. He is still relatively new in the portfolio. I think there are some encouraging signs that the minister has been willing to travel the North. It starts with that. He has been willing to sit down and meet with people.

Whether I agree with him or not, I do give him credit, for example, with going to Cross Lake. That took some political courage on the minister's part, and I think that is important. I am sure he received a polite reception. There may have been some who were frustrated by his comments, but you know that has always been my sense of the North. That is we can learn a lot from the way in which the North treats visitors. Sometimes we get frustrated. I say "we" collectively, and it is for a good reason. I hope people will realize that.

I have yet to see a community where people do not welcome a cabinet minister visiting or an MLA, whatever party they are in or position they are in, because we know, we understand. I mean every time the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman) goes up, he is going to see the problems, see the opportunities. I mean he is not going to make it worse by seeing that. He is going to come back to the cabinet table and come back to the Legislature. To my mind, every time somebody goes up North, visits northern communities, we have one more ally. Even if it is only on a few issues, that is important.

I think some of the developments in terms of the self-reliance, with the appropriate tools, are encouraging. Some communities have proven they are at that stage. I know South Indian Lake has proven it. I think that is important. I think it is important to note, too, that one of the elements of that was not just setting up the framework, but also setting up the situation in which the tools were there, both in terms of funding. That was one of the key factors for most communities, and I think there are more tools that can be given. I think there are a number of communities that could be given an extended jurisdiction, Northern Affairs communities where it does not conflict with other jurisdictions.

I am a strong believer in the case of the communities I represent, Northern Affairs communities like Wabowden, Thicket Portage, and Pikwitonei. If they had greater boundary areas or greater jurisdictional areas, you might see, for example, there are some excellent lakefront properties around Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei. What if the community itself was able to develop that as a cottage area? I would like to see this done in some First Nations communities as well, by the way. What if we could then use some of our forestry to take some of the technology that exists for log cabins? There are some log cabins being built now as a source of housing in aboriginal communities. Nelson House and Split Lake are looking at that. They are far more effective than the old log cabins. People have this kind of image that we have progressed by having wood frame structures with gyproc. I beg to differ. Some of these wood cabins are more efficient in terms of energy consumption than the rest.

Once again, a lot of what happens is, if you give communities more jurisdiction, you can give them some opportunity to develop their resources. I think those are the challenges. I think some of the things the minister has done are positive. But I quite frankly think we need a northern plan. I recommend to the minister a lot of the work was done with the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Commission, which after a million dollars still sits on the shelf collecting dust in the case of many of its recommendations. I want to recommend to the minister some of the recommendations that we have been bringing forward including in that more resource revenues staying within northern Manitoba and giving northerners more opportunity to promote economic development within northern Manitoba. I think that is very important.

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I mentioned in terms of Hydro, there are some encouraging signs there. But I want to stress again that partnership with the communities is the key aspect. We need to change the way we view economic development. We need to restart a lot of communities in terms of traditional activities. What we need as well, and this is one area that I think is important as well, we need partnership with the federal government. If there is one regret I have, whether you blame the federal government or the provincial government, we used to have northern development agreements in the '70s and the '80s which had a partnership approach, did a lot to develop education programs and infrastructure. We desperately need that again. We need that federal-provincial approach. I hope, by the way, with the talk of a renewed infrastructure program that it will be something that will be taken as an opportunity to have a specific one for northern Manitoba.

Quite frankly, a few years ago we had a Southern Development Initiative that brought sewer systems into southern Manitoba. We are still, year by year, and I know there has been some progress in some communities under the capital budget, we are still dealing with that, communities that do not have proper infrastructure in northern Manitoba.

I think, yes, we have problems. We are worse off in many ways than we were a while ago, but with a sense of vision and a commitment from all levels of government and respect and partnership, I think we can go a long way. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the acting critic from the official opposition for those remarks. I would remind members of the committee that debate on the Minister's Salary, item 1.(a), is deferred until all other items in the Estimates of the department are passed.

At this time we would invite the minister's staff to take their place in the Chamber. We know they have been waiting with bated breath out there. See how patient they are. That is what you call stand-up staff. I know they were standing because there are no chairs out there.

Is the minister prepared to introduce his staff present at this committee at this time?

Mr. Newman: We have my deputy minister, Oliver Boulette; assistant deputy minister Jeff Polakoff; we have Rene Gagnon; and Joe Morrisseau.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Does the member for Flin Flon have leave to take his questions from the front row? [agreed]

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I appreciate that. As the member for Thompson stated, neither one of us is the official critic. But I listened with rapt attention to what the minister had to say and also to what the member for Thompson had to say. I must admit, they are very eloquent and I do not pretend to have the same eloquence. So I guess I am like the proverbial ugly duckling caught between two swans, but nonetheless I would like to make a few statements, perhaps more briefly than either of the two predecessors who spoke.

I think the minister talked about some very practical things. He talked about how things are right now, the what of it. I think the member for Thompson put everything into a good historical context for us to be asking questions of the minister and his staff.

The minister listed a number of initiatives, and I appreciate some of the practical and pragmatic aspects of those initiatives. I do believe the minister to be a very practical, pragmatic person. I also want to echo what my colleague said, that we really do appreciate the fact that he comes up north, that he does not merely operate the department from Winnipeg. If there is one criticism we get from many northerners, it is this Perimeter vision and none of the cabinet ministers ever come north. Something we could also, I guess, say to some of our own people in our own caucus, that we like to see them up north more often.

But this minister has indeed travelled the North, and I think he is respected in all communities. Even though we come from dramatically different ideological perspectives, I want to assure him that I appreciate that greatly, that he takes the effort and that he also tries to the best of his ability to understand the cultural aspects of aboriginal people. I think very few people have done that, and I think he needs to be commended for that. I wanted to start off by saying that.

I know there are a lot of needs in northern Manitoba, infrastructure needs and health needs and justice needs. The minister and also the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) have alluded to that. We can talk about a lot of negatives: the geographic isolation, the chronic poverty in northern Manitoba, the unemployment, variety of social problems. The member for Thompson referenced that suicide is an endemic problem in northern Manitoba, and I think it is linked to poverty and alienation and cultural erosion. There are high levels of diabetes, so there are all kinds of health problems in northern Manitoba. The minister himself pointed out fetal alcohol syndrome, fetal alcohol effect problems. They are chronic. We have to take that seriously because the price tag is enormous. We have to intervene as quickly as we can and intervene early. We could lament the fact that some of the positive programs from the past have been cut for whatever reason, whether they are aspects of Access programs or whatever. But I am sure the minister is trying to do his best with a limited budget, and I appreciate the pragmatic aspect of his vision.

But, apart from the negatives, I think we also have to stress that in the years, at least in the years that I have been in northern Manitoba, and I came to northern Manitoba in 1972, I have seen great strides forward. In fact, if we wish to be highly symbolic and sort of focus on just one person, that the minister's own deputy minister, Oliver Boulette, was a graduate, I believe, from FCI, if I am not mistaken, although I did not teach him; I think I worked with him for a little while. The fact that people coming out of that school in northern Manitoba, which was a high school for a whole host of smaller schools scattered in the North mainly, are here today, I think, is a tribute to the fact that there are success stories.

I am sure that the deputy minister would be the first to admit he is not the only one. I used to go into South Indian Lake and there would be Mike Dumas [phonetic], the mayor, who was a former student from FCI. In fact, Oscar Lathlin, the member for The Pas, is a graduate of FCI. I am thinking of Phillip Buck of Moose Lake, Chief Phillip Buck is a graduate of FCI. I am thinking of the former Chief Bighetty out of Brochet, a graduate of FCI. And so on and so on. We run into those people all over the North.

When I see that, I am personally very much heartened and gladdened because day to day we do not see the strides forward. It is easy to sit and be negative and criticize and whine and say things are getting worse. Well, things are tough, but there has been some light. There has been some improvement. I can only feel positive about it when I see it concretized in a human being, when I see the chances we gave some of those isolated students from small communities. They came north, and, Lord knows, it was not easy to leave your home. I am sure that Mr. Boulette could talk about that, when you are in Grade 9 and you have to move. I do not know; how far would it be from Manigotagan, probably 800 kilometres or more, probably more? A thousand kilometres to go to school and not see your parents on a regular basis, to see them perhaps only at Easter time or Christmas.

I know we have tightened that system today. Frontier Collegiate Institute, still operational. The kids go home much more often now, but I know how difficult it was and how I, as a teacher, had to in a sense become a surrogate parent and how the bonds we formed with those young people were powerful bonds that cannot be broken, even today. That is why we are so glad to meet one another. I think that is the kind of approach we need, and I am very happy to see that, when the minister takes that culturally sensitive approach, that is the direction we are going, and it needs to be strengthened

I am not saying there are no negatives, but there are very, very many positive stories as well that gladden my heart. I can point out one other thing. When I was at Frontier Collegiate Institute, I came in 1972. I came from Saskatchewan and I taught aboriginal students in the Wadena School Division, a number of aboriginal students at a high school. I remember the principal saying we have never graduated an aboriginal student out of this school; in fact, we have never got an aboriginal student into Grade 10. I remember two girls, and I still occasionally meet them. We finally, we meaning a number of teachers, including myself, got them to Grade 10. That is as far as we ever got, and that was our success story.

Compare that with our aboriginal people today, you know, the success stories we have: the lawyers, the doctors, the deputy ministers and the ministers, I am sure, and the members of Parliament and the members of the Legislature. I mean there have been strides forward, and we cannot ignore that. I am very, very heartened by that.

I also want to point out when I was at Frontier Collegiate Institute, from 1972 till 1994, that particular school was culturally sensitive to the best of its ability. I cannot pretend that everybody in there was from a cultural background or was cross-culturally educated or was even necessarily sensitive of the needs of aboriginal people, but at least they tried their darndest.

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If there is one regret, it is the fact that we did not push languages hard enough, particularly the Cree language. I hope that the minister and his own department realize that that is a very important aspect, a very important factor that we, to some degree, neglected to address then, but we are addressing it now. If you wish to speak to aboriginal people, especially to elders, you sometimes have to use another language, and it is pretty tough when you go through translators. So we have to be really sensitive on the language issue.

I was going to get back to Frontier Collegiate Institute. We had a trapline. I know because I ran the thing for 20 years. I cannot pretend that I am a trapper, but I was caught in the ambivalent or ambiguous, possibly ridiculous, position as some white boy, who was actually born in Holland and wore wooden shoes at one point and admired tulips, or whatever the stereotypes are, having to teach aboriginal kids how to trap. There was something wrong with this picture. I think the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) alluded to it. The skills from the elders were slowly being lost, and that is traumatic.

It is not just the skills that are being lost, it is also the language because language is the carrier of value. We are much more aware of it today. For example, at Frontier Collegiate Institute, we teach Cree, we make sure we have good Cree teachers because it is so important. I am not trying to suggest Cree only because there are many other Oji-Cree and Saulteaux and Dene, as well, of course, many other languages, not just the Cree language.

What I was getting to was it was important for us, at least as white teachers in that institution, to be aware that trapping and traditional lifestyles were important to our students, at least to the family or the elders from the communities that these students came from, so we took up trapping. We had a 60-square-mile trapline. I do not know if Mr. Boulette was part of that trapline or not, but I learned an awful lot. I soon learned that not every aboriginal person or student there or every white student there, for that matter, was a good trapper, but there were some that were. I learned how to trap, and then that skill I could pass on to the next group of trappers.

You know, it made us so much more relevant, I think, because for one thing the children there then realized if you really planned well and you did the right thing and you caught the right animal and you watched the markets and you sold that, you could make a buck. It was great entrepreneurship. I know there were students, in fact three brothers I recall, who were fanatic about trapping. They were so fanatic I had to stop them from cleaning out the whole line. They made $10,000 one winter. I mean that was a lot of money, and that all tied in with education, with mathematics and with English. I made them write essays on the topic and so on.

So those kind of fascinating things were happening, and I think more of that should have happened. That particular school is a residential school. It is not even your typical day school. Maybe that is what made it so unique. I guess in that sense it counters the stereotype residential school, which has all kinds of negative connotations.

Perhaps, there is a larger lesson in all of this. It is so easy to focus on the negatives, and as the role of the opposition, we often, I think, are driven into that particular extreme to pooh-pooh everything and to be critical of everything. I want the minister to know and his staff, because I know them to be extremely good people, I know Jeff personally and Oliver, obviously, and some of the others, want them to know that even though we are critical, we have the best interests at heart of the northern people, and I know they do too.

Sometimes for ideological reasons or party or political reasons or pre-election reasons, we do go at it somewhat heavily and somewhat critically, but I think we have to, all of us, be aware that we represent constituents. I happen to represent northern constituents of which I am enormously proud, whose culture and heritage I am trying to learn, as well as the other groups of people, mainly mining people and tourist people, who come from a culture of which I am more acquainted, but we all have to be sensitive to that.

Now, I know that was a long, roundabout statement, and I promised to be brief. I just want to be sure that in the future we are aware of the haves and the have-nots, that the northern part of the province tends to be a have-not area. I do not think there is a particular line, because I know some of those battle lines, if you can call them that, are drawn also in the city. I am very happy that the minister talked about an Urban Aboriginal Strategy, but basically northern Manitoba tends to be more poverty struck than the south is, and that has to be addressed in general terms and also, in particular, departmental terms.

As well, I think that we have to be careful when we make decisions. We sometimes assume we have the consent of aboriginal people. One of the things I learned being in the North is that silence is very valuable, and it is not difficult for me now. It was, at one time, enormously difficult for me to walk into an aboriginal home, let us say a Dene home in Lac du Brochet or Tadoule, and sit down with an elderly lady, have tea and not speak a word because silence seems to have more value or meaning for aboriginal people.

They are not always trying to get stuff out and put things in a verbal sense. There is more a body context, a feeling of the other person, a more serious spiritual down-to-earth reality that I think sometimes those of us who claim to be in a different, allegedly higher level of civilization have. I do not agree with that. I think some of the most delightful, some of the most interesting and some of the wisest people are some of our elders. I find it almost painful to realize that some of their stories will not be told or will not be recorded, because once that wisdom goes, as the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) said, I do not know how we are going to resurrect it. Many of those values are precisely the values that we need if we wish to be sustainable, if we wish to keep the system going, if we wish to tread lightly on Mother Earth, because aboriginal people lived in this country for, some people suggest, 20,000 years and nothing changed.

Mother Earth was not damaged and we are damaging. We are very damaging in what we do. Yes, we want to create economic development. We want to create jobs. We want to do the good stuff, but there is a price to be paid. We have to be sensitive to the other part, to the environmental part, and we are trying to be. I know the minister is as well. We have talked about Sherridon, Gohl Lake, and some of those issues with pollution. I am very heartened by the direction that that department is taking.

What I would not want to happen in the future is the lack of consultation or assuming that consultation has taken place when it has not really, because aboriginal people, among other things, are very reluctant to say no or very reluctant to challenge outright, so very often we implicitly assume we have consent. I will give you an example of that. Four northern parks were created, and I think the government was under the impression that consultation had taken place, and it really had not. Letters were sent out, there is no doubt, but because a letter is sent out and does arrive at the band office does not necessarily mean it has been properly discussed or understood and people have had the time to digest it.

Remember that some of these people live traditional lifestyles. They could be on the land for long periods of time or on the water fishing or trapping, and you cannot assume if you mail a letter on Monday or fax it, that by Tuesday or Wednesday the band decision is made. We have to be sensitive to some of the cultural realities out there.

Anyway, those four northern parks were created. I think in many ways they were paper parks. I am not debating that we should not support endangered green spaces or endangered spaces. I am glad in that sense we are taking that initiative, but consultation should have taken place, that it does not overlap with TLE expectations, that aboriginal people have put their seal of approval on those parks. That did not happen.

I think the understanding was that it did, but it did not. Those kinds of, I guess, potential confrontations can be avoided if we are culturally sensitive. It is not an easy thing to be, culturally sensitive. It is very hard. I found it hard myself. I came from a different culture, but it was more or less the same North Atlantic culture, though the language was quite different, but it did teach me a lot of things. The fact that you are suddenly coming out of a country, you are put into a grade and you cannot understand a word the other person is saying, and you are trying to go with the class, it cannot be done. You learn to be humble, because you may have the intellectual equipment to deal with it, but you do not have the linguistic equipment. Some of the big problems we have had in the past, I think, is that we assume because an elder could not speak in perfect fluent English, could not make the argument that therefore he or she was incapable of making the argument. That is false. Some of these people are incredibly eloquent in their own language, and it is very hard to translate.

Anyway, I am getting off the topic, Mr. Minister. I would just perhaps like us to go back to some specifics. I hope the minister is indulgent, realizing I am not the official critic for this particular department, but I certainly have a number of specific questions I would like to ask, if I may do so.

Mr. Newman: Thank you very much, the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and the honourable member for Flin Flon (Jennissen). I will just simply give a brief comment in reply to what you have said so you can proceed with questions, but I am very appreciative of the tone and a lot of the content and the interpretation of history and the vision going back to 1969.

I am not going to deal with the past and the rights or wrongs of it, but whatever was built there as a foundation, for example, most importantly the capacity of the Northern Affairs communities to practise effective, democratic, local self-government, for the most part still under the guiding hand and the legal responsibility of the minister, are the best legacy that has been left by work done by governments of the past and the civil servants operating in the service of those communities. Because I would venture that the quality of governance by the Northern Affairs communities in terms of competence and accountability and understanding and respect for their own citizens is second to none in terms of comparison, certainly to the First Nations communities and the way they have developed in terms of governance capacities under the Indian Act. Or I would even put them in very good comparison to the municipal local governments in the province. So that is absolutely an essential asset, an essential characteristic, for moving towards healthy sustainability.

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The interesting thing in many respects is the development of infrastructure first has made it more difficult for them to reassume responsibility for their own self-sufficiency and sustainability because to make a leap in attitudinal change to say, well, now we have to pay for those things, now we have to look after those things, is difficult, but not nearly as it is going to be in Nunavut, I might say, where the federal government has spent enormous amounts on infrastructure and not as much in developing capacities of local government.

So without going into any of the details, the fact is that many efforts have been made to advance the self-sufficiency of those communities. It is rather interesting to note that whereas under the NDP governments and even the Conservative government in '77 to '81, the numbers involved in the Northern Affairs department have diminished very significantly. From time to time over my several years as minister that has been seen to a certain extent as a negative from the perspective of the official opposition. But I think as they gain an understanding of what has happened here, and we celebrate this as really a gain because it means that those communities are doing things for themselves, and the diminished size of the civil service is really a measure of their success and their accomplishment, their ability to function as accountable and responsible local community governments.

I just wanted to make two other observations. One is the concentration of the Filmon government of the last 11 years has been on really fundamental systemic kinds of things, and that is part of my opening address so I will not repeat it.

But the highlights of those, of course, were the determination to move Northern Affairs communities towards genuine independence, the commitment to implement HEAL, fulfill the obligations under treaties toward land entitlement, similarly to HEAL to accomplish the implementation of the compensation under the Northern Flood Agreement commitments and the completion of the North Central power line, and all of the kinds of things that were done giving resource revenues to communities through tobacco taxes, gasoline taxes, and sharing of taxes from the rest of the province and gaming revenue. All of those kinds of things have been major contributions to, I think, what is indeed, as the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) said, is an aboriginal advantage.

I think the foundation is there to really move dramatically forward, but if you continue to be in opposition and we continue to be in government, one thing that I would just pass on by way of opportunities, which, I do not believe, have been exhausted to the extent they should. MLAs in the North, if they are from the official opposition or if they are from the nonofficial opposition or if they are from MLAs from the North in government, I urge consideration of all of the opportunities through different initiatives like the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and many other kinds of funding, certainly, Community Places and the like.

I just give an example because you singled out Thicket Portage and Wabowden, at least the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) did, as examples of success stories, community gardens and the like. Those kinds of initiatives are the kinds of things which the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund supports, and they are the product of applications. In fact, Wabowden achieved a grant from that particular fund. I know I signed or I sent a letter with the cheque in it. There is something over $4,000 supporting this fundamental approach to health and nutrition, and these kinds of packages or holistic approaches towards healthy sustainable communities, that theme runs through many, many programs that the government has with grants available.

I urge the members opposite to take advantage of those in creative ways because, for example, the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund does not have the word "innovation" there for any other reason than to encourage creative approaches to sustainability. So we are absolutely on the same wavelength, in fact, in that respect and similarly with respect to building pride through initiatives that are sensitive to and respect the traditions of aboriginal people. We believe that profoundly.

Again, those kinds of things can attract funding and support from various branches of the government, and I do not think that you as MLAs co-ordinate, lead, inspire applications often enough in those kinds of ways.

You will have partners in my staff because I can tell you that, under Assistant Deputy Minister Polakoff and all of the people that work with communities, they have had workshops and they have encouraged the communities themselves to get involved in these kinds of things. I like to think that maybe some of these things have not only been inspired by my staff but the wonderful people in the community that come up with these ideas.

That missionary couple that are in Thicket Portage, whom I have met and I had a long discussion with the first time I met them, shared with me what made possible their restaurant was the hookup to the North Central power. They saw that as providing many opportunities for health.

So some of these things that seem to be fundamental but remote from real positive individual family-community change are major contributors to it, and that is the kind of thing that is missed often by the people that are sitting on this inquiry for the Aboriginal Rights Coalition, for example. It is all in the way you look at things. You have to look at the positives, the opportunities that are made available through some of the great emerging advantages that the North has.

I would often say when I am up North that they should just compare themselves from time to time by going into the core area of the city, where you have other neighbourhoods of aboriginal people. What they are trying to do in the city is sometimes create simulated lakes, plant trees, plant grass and have exposure to wildlife and all of those things are there in abundance in the North, so in many ways they are miles and years, maybe centuries, ahead of the city in terms of opportunity. It is all in the way you look at it. Now with technology and the instantaneous communications we have, the power is there to do things in those wonderful environments that could never have been done before and will provide a livelihood.

On the other hand, it is always a double-edged sword because you speak of you, like many others, making an effort to teach the traditional skills lost. What you are competing with and all of us are competing with in trying to take the best of those traditions is the power of the television and the power of the Internet. I have told this story several times in the North that when I went into Grade 3 classes in northern Manitoba and in Nunavut, and I asked those Grade 3 classes in their computer labs what website they visited most frequently, in both cases it was the Backstreet Boys and the Spice Girls. That is the power of the North American worldwide dominant cultures. It looks attractive and everything looks attractive, but to promote all of the assets, the gifts that they have in their own communities, is the great challenge we have.

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With those few thoughts and also my concurrence with the need for genuine and meaningful consultation in developments in the North, I think that we can have a very productive dialogue in making sure that the department I represent is truly empowered to do more to serve the people of the North who were both accountable.

Mr. Jennissen: I am hoping we can focus now on some specific communities. I know we have limited time and I have a number of Northern Affairs communities. I will probably not have enough time to ask the kinds of questions I need to for all of them, but at least get started on the process. I would like to get started with South Indian Lake.

The minister will recall that last April, I believe it was, he and his deputy minister and myself–I was graciously invited and I thank him for that–attended the incorporation of South Indian Lake and were very much hosted by Joan Soulier and her council and Darren Ottaway, the administrator. It certainly was a very interesting time with fiddle playing and jigging and feasts and so on. I appreciated being there.

As the minister said, in order to become self-sufficient and independent and self-sustaining, we do need transportation links, and of course, that is the weakness very often in northern Manitoba and this community is no exception. We are talking now about road links specifically, and coming out of the Flood Agreement, this may not be the correct forum to ask the question, but I will ask it anyway of the Minister of Northern Affairs. A road was promised and I have asked the Minister of Highways about it in that Estimates process.

I am still not clear as to the status of that road from South Bay where the ferry lands to part way around South Indian Lake, to the community of South Indian Lake, an all-weather road, and either a bridge or a ferry. I have been told it would have to be a ferry. What is the status of that exactly? I have been told now that is on-line and have been told that for about five years. I really would like to know.

Mr. Newman: The commitment as I understand it was that within 10 years the road would be begun, and my advice is that it will be. It is at the how do you do the funding stage, who are the partners to the funding and engineering study stage. So the identification of the potential funders has been made, and we are involved in all of those discussions. Perhaps some days you might call them negotiations to complete that picture and permit the obligation to be fulfilled in a timely way over the very foreseeable near time future.

Mr. Jennissen: Originally, I had understood that there would be a bridge in conjunction with this project. They are checking the flood agreement again having listened to other people. Apparently that is not the case, and we are talking of ferry now. But an all-weather ferry, is that a possibility so that we are not stuck with freeze-up and break-up problems which, in other words, puts you back to almost like a winter road situation?

Mr. Newman: The studies have been done and there has been serious review of the viability and efficacy of an all-weather ferry. The terms of the agreement, according to our legal people, make clear that the obligation would be fulfilled by that sort of means, and, at the moment, that appears to be the most probable kind of solution.

Mr. Jennissen: I am given to understand that newer technology, which I believe includes bubblers, can actually keep that stretch of water open and it has been used in some places. The community has asked me if the minister would lobby with whatever forces we have to lobby to see that that all-weather ferry would become a reality. Otherwise, we are going to be in a situation where, yes, there will be a ferry, but again for long periods of time in the fall and in the spring, we could be incommunicado, in a sense, where it would not be an all-weather road which I believe the flood agreement stipulates.

Mr. Newman: There is no question that the Department of Northern Affairs is playing that role on behalf of that particular community.

Mr. Jennissen: I wonder if the minister could also enlighten me on the exact incorporation status of South Indian Lake. It is not precisely like creating a municipality, I believe. There is a lag time, a built-in period, and there are obviously some obligations to the problem, so it is not like 100 percent incorporation. Am I correct in that?

Mr. Newman: The legal difference is that the South Indian Lake community is incorporated under The Northern Affairs Act, as distinguished from under the enabling powers provided by The Municipal Act. That is the essential difference.

The major implication of that, I would suggest, is that the relationship to the Department of Northern Affairs continues for as long as that is their status. The kind of approach that we are taking to this is that it is a logical, evolutionary step towards a more complete uniform kind of way of operating along with other municipalities in the province without the umbrella support provided by The Northern Affairs Act. Essentially that is the difference, as I see it.

Mr. Jennissen: Two of the concerns that I am sure the minister encounters frequently in northern communities are the twin concerns of housing and water-sewage issues, and South Indian Lake is no exception.

I do not have time to ask specific questions on that now, but I would like to get a little update on the water and sewage projects that were carried out in Granville Lake. As the minister recalled, he visited Granville Lake. I think he may well be the only cabinet minister who ever did, but I really appreciate the fact that he did make that effort. He was there, saw the situation, and actually said, I am going to do something about it, and followed that up.

It is hard to get to Granville Lake by phone. I tried again today. I really do not have a good up-to-date feel of how that water-sewage project is proceeding.

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Mr. Newman: The water system is in. The distribution of the water in terms of hookups to the houses has not been done. The reason for that is we funded the water plant, but the challenge in terms of gaining support for the hookups is dealing with the Manitoba Metis Federation, which is the manager of the housing in that particular community. Those discussions, as I understand it, are ongoing.

Mr. Jennissen: Is the minister saying, then, the hookups would eventually be for CMHC or some other group? We are not funding hookups?

Mr. Newman: The homeowner being CMHC, it is a matter that they would be funding.

Mr. Jennissen: In the few brief conversations I had with Granville Lake, that seemed to be their concern, that the water line was there, the house was there and the bathtub was there and the sink was there, but the connection between the two was not completed, and they were frustrated. I was not sure if the province had a role to play here or not, but that has been clarified. The other question is: we are only talking water line and not sewage line, is that correct?

Mr. Newman: That is correct.

Mr. Jennissen: The entire system is independent from the Frontier hookup to the school, because they had their own water and sewer system I believe, is that correct?

Mr. Newman: That is correct, but in terms of the sewage, we are looking at how that can be dealt with in a way that might benefit from the Frontier School Division system and presence there.

Mr. Jennissen: Granville Lake is a small community and there is no winter road as such, although there are skidoo or snowmobile trails in the winter, but at least one of those trails is fairly dangerous. It is over thin ice and there is current under the ice. In Estimates I asked the Minister of Highways (Mr. Praznik) whether he would consider a request by Granville Lake about making a new snowmobile trail largely over land. I think it would cost in the neighbourhood of $40,000, and the people in the community are willing to do the hard work. That would give them much better access to No. 391 and Leaf Rapids if that could be done.

The Highways minister seemed sympathetic to the idea, but then suggested that because it was a breakaway community, I think he called it, or a community that was originally with Mathias Colomb or Pukatawagan, that it might be hard to do. I had to remind him that I just a week earlier had driven to Sherridon with Shorty Sayies, Celestine Sayies who was born in Granville Lake 67 years ago, so it is not a recent community. I am just wondering if the minister would lobby Highways. Maybe this is irregular, but I am going to be totally shameless about this, whether the minister will lobby the Highways minister for $40,000 to get this snowmobile trail which is much needed by the community, if he can get the funding, because I think it is a small investment. It would make the community more accessible.

Mr. Newman: We have for some time been facilitating meetings with concerned groups that promote the development and quality of snowmobile trails, and it is not just government. There is a primary association called Snoman which is very active in that kind of activity. I gather they have been part of these meetings, as had the Mathias Colomb band and Highways. Our role there is very much to try and facilitate an accomplishment of the goal they seek in terms of result. The challenge of funding is always something that is there, and it is making a case that justifies an investment that is always the important thing.

I am advised that the year with higher water levels and thin ice was the year before. The past winter apparently it was not as high a priority an issue or as urgent an issue because of the different conditions, but it has been driven by the community. We urge them to continue to work towards a solution. We commend them for their initiative in this. As soon as I heard about this, I can tell you that I gave a direction to staff to get involved in facilitative kinds of ways. It is a mark of, I think, a level degree of accomplishment of a community when it does start coming up with these solution-oriented kinds of approaches to things, creative kinds of ideas for enhancing the quality of life in their community, so we will definitely be continuing to go to bat for them and coming up with solutions here.

Mr. Jennissen: Perhaps please just one more question. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I should have asked it earlier when I was dealing with South Indian Lake. South Indian Lake has a great concern about policing and police presence in the community. I guess crime is on the rise. They have asked over and over again for an RCMP detachment. I believe a study shows that a four-person RCMP detachment would indeed be warranted in South Indian Lake. I know it is not the minister's department. It may not even be the appropriate government level, but I am wondering if the minister has any thoughts about expediting that process. I know the community would really like to see a much stronger police RCMP presence in that community.

Mr. Chairperson: I think the honourable minister can answer that next time we are here, because the hour is now six o'clock. Committee rise.

Call in the Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being six o'clock, this House adjourns and stands adjourned until tomorrow (Wednesday), as previously agreed, at 10 a.m.