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Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good morning. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Housing. The consideration of these Estimates was started in the Chamber yesterday, and the minister has already given his opening remarks. Leave was granted for the opposition critic, the honourable member for Radisson, to give her opening remarks when she is next at committee. Does the honourable member for Radisson have her opening statement ready?

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Chair-person, I am just going to make a few comments.

Mr. Chairperson: If so, we will ask the minister's staff to temporarily leave the table during the consideration of this opening statement.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I am pleased that you got started yesterday with the minister and the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). I may be following up on some of the issues that were raised there, but the approach that I am going to take this year, I think, is to start off dealing with some specific issues that I have been involved with and following related to the department, and then, after that, get into some of the more specifics around the budget and the Estimates book as we have it presented before us.

I have asked the minister to provide me with information that I have received from the minister other years, and we had an agreement yesterday that he would provide me that information prior to my getting rolling, so I just want to make sure that that is available. I guess I want to start off by saying that I am concerned at the lack of co-operation and the closed shop that has occurred in that department recently, not only in terms of disclosing information that is public information, information like vacancy rates, the arrears, schedule of budgets and maintenance, information around the devolution agreement which I had written about to the minister before, and I believed that I was going to get that information once the agreement was all completed. That is what the letter I received from the minister at that time suggested. Now I have got no information, and I have had letters, as the minister knows, suggesting that I direct all my calls to his office, even though in the past I have simply had to get the information from his staff, which I would suggest have more accurate information than his office, and that is where he is going to get the information from anyway.

The way that I would expect it to work is if I make a request into, for example, the executive director for the Manitoba Housing Authority, I certainly expect, as I identify myself, that that informational request is going to go to the minister's office and the deputy and they are all going to know, so I will get some information and clarification on this new approach in the ministry. I want to have a chance of looking at specifically the information I have requested because I think it makes these Estimates a lot more fruitful when we are considering something like the management of the Manitoba Housing Authority if I actually have some of that information to go from, or it makes this Estimates process not a useful exercise if I am just requesting in this process information. I mean, I can do that in a letter. If I have the information in front of me, then we can actually have an intelligent discussion about what is actually going on in the department. So, if the minister does not want that to happen, I guess he is not going to give me the information.

But the housing situation in Manitoba is very serious. There have been a lot changes going on. There have been a lot of new things happening in the community, and we have a lot to discuss. There has been a lot happening across the country in the areas of homelessness and housing as it relates to poverty. I have said before, I do not think that this government and Housing has been keeping step with that. The cutbacks over the years have had an effect. I would say the lack of innovation in terms of dealing with the aging demographic, dealing with the changes in those people who are living in poverty, those demographics.

There have been longstanding problems with existing stock of Manitoba Housing in terms of vacancies, in terms of the way that properties are being changed or modified to deal with the changing demographics. This govern-ment has had 11 long years to try and resolve some of these issues. I have referred in Question Period recently to studies that I have come across fairly recently that go back to the early '90s that were making recommendations. I will be interested, as we go through this Estimates process, to see what has happened with some of those studies and recommendations in this department.

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In terms of the specific challenges in Manitoba, I want to try and spend a little bit more time dealing with issues in the North. I am particularly concerned about the way the housing stock or portfolio has changed in the North and how the provincial government is dealing with that in co-operation with the federal government, because I realize that some of those communities are federal responsibilities, as the minister I am sure is going to be quick to remind me. But I also want to spend quite a bit of time dealing with the challenges that we are facing in our urban areas, since the minister is also the minister for urban sprawl or for Urban Affairs–and urban sprawl. But I want to spend some serious time looking at this government's plan for the urban area in Winnipeg, as well as a lot of other communities that we know that are also having problems with urban decline and older housing stock that is on the private market.

There have been a number of recommen-dations put before different levels of government from community organizations and see where the government stands on some of those. I am concerned generally, after listening to the throne speech where I was initially encouraged to hear that the government had recognized finally that there were some problems in Winnipeg in our older neighbourhoods, then quite concerned that when it came to the budget there has been no comparable budget allotment for initiatives to deal with, I would say, a community-develop-ment approach in resolving the deterioration of housing stock and the whole surrounding problems related to poverty and decline in the urban areas.

This government and the minister talk a lot, at least they mouth the right words it seems, when it comes to working with the community, but I am very concerned that there are no dollars and no commitments and no specific programs that go along with that. There has to be, I think, some leadership on the part of this government in dealing with these organizations. We know that the charitable sector is not going to be able to meet the huge need in terms of renovation of homes and redevelopment of the urban core without government leadership in terms of policy direction and funds.

I am also hoping to spend some time dealing with the devolution agreement which now we should be operating under, as I understand it. I have had calls to my office, particularly from some of the not-for-profit corporations, expressing concern about how that new scheme is actually working on the ground and lack of co-ordination with CMHC, the fact that the transition seems to have not gone smoothly for a number of housing corporations.

I hope that we can conduct these Estimates in a way that is actually going to address issues, and we are not going to spend a lot of time just sort of skirting around things and having, I guess, long-winded answers that do not really go anywhere. I hope that the minister would treat the Estimates as a chance to deal with some new ideas. I am actually going to put forward some recommendations that have come to me as I have done consultation with community groups, and I am quite interested in seeing what the government thinks of these recommendations.

So I am not going to simply be criticizing or attacking the government without trying to put forward some constructive suggestions, and I hope that the minister would meet that and his department would meet that with a similar approach in terms of trying to have this process be meaningful and actually add something to the challenge before us which is trying to meet the housing needs of all Manitobans.

So with those few comments, I will welcome back the minister's staff.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the member. We will now resume consideration of line 30.1 Housing Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $391,100 on page 98 of the Estimates book. We would also ask the minister's staff to rejoin us at the table. The honourable minister.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Pass.

Mr. Chairperson: Well, talk about co-operation.

Ms. Cerilli: As I said in my opening statements, I am waiting for my information.

Mr. Reimer: In a response to the member, I think what we have done before in regard to the Housing Estimates is sort of just let it flow as the member for Radisson would like to ask questions. I do not believe that we are restricted to necessarily line by line at this particular time. I think that it is more or less an information gathering by the member for Radisson and that the questions and the answers will flow on various topics that are brought forth. So I have no problem with that type of approach to the Estimates, and we can proceed with it.

The member mentioned the information. We have brought some of the information that has been requested.

Mr. Chairperson: I would just like to have the okay by the rest of the committee that the discussion will flow as the members wish throughout the Estimates instead of going line by line. Is it agreed? [agreed]

Mr. Reimer: It has been pointed out–I guess in the rush to get over here, because I had originally told the staff that we were meeting after Question Period, and I think that they came over in a bit of a rush–one of my staff has mentioned that the file folder in regard to the information for the member is back at the office. But it has not been lost; it has not been forgotten. It will be brought over after lunch, if that is okay or we can send for it. I can have a phone call put. What we can do is we can phone over and have it brought over. That is okay?

Ms. Cerilli: I would prefer that. I am not suggesting that I am going to wait here and do nothing until we get that information. I am quite prepared to start, but I do not want to go through the whole morning and then just get it this afternoon.

Mr. Reimer: He has a cell phone, so it is great. These things are great.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, I am glad that we have had an agreement there. Considering that, I am going to take a minute to sort of figure out where I am going to start, because I was going to start with that issue.

I think I am going to actually start off with the issue that we were dealing with most recently in the House. That is the situation at 101 Marion Street. The minister may want to have some more sport with me on this one, but I have had another set of correspondence from there that is going to change the debate a bit I think. I am going to raise a new issue that I think is actually quite serious, and it has to do with the death of some of the tenants who have lived there. I am assuming that the minister has received the same correspondence that I have from one of the tenants there. It is dated March 17. It was sent to Gary Doer, MLA for Concordia, and the minister as well as copy to myself.

The serious concern there is that some of the tenants have passed away in their room and have not been found for quite a few days. The minister's expression on his face leads me to believe he is not aware of this situation. Can I ask the minister: is he aware of the situation at 101 Marion?

Mr. Reimer: I was not aware of that particular incident in regard that there had been deaths. I would not say that there has not been, because I think that it is a building that is occupied by a fair amount of seniors. I guess there has been the unfortunate passing away of some of them in that building but, as for their not being discovered for two or three days, I am not familiar with that particular aspect of it.

Ms. Cerilli: That is one of the claims I have been trying to follow up on. That is why I am raising it here, because the minister and others there have suggested that I am not following up on things properly before raising them publicly, and I do not want to do that. But we have tried to make inquiries about this, and we are not going to get anywhere with this. It is going to have to come from, I think, the minister's office.

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I would hope that there would be investigations and that the minister would see what the legal requirements are or policy is when a coroner's investigation would follow on these kind of deaths. I am wondering if he could make some commitment to do that.

Mr. Reimer: There is no formal mechanism within Manitoba Housing as to checking on the tenants in buildings and things like that. I think what has happened in a lot of the public housing buildings is that the tenants associations have undertaken on their own initiative a system of buddy checking or a buddy system of knocking on doors or leaving something on their doorknob in the morning when they wake up to indicate that someone has been there and knocked on it. They have done that on their own initiative. We, as Manitoba Housing, do not have a policy of physically checking on individuals on a regular basis in the sense of seeing who is in the room or whether the person is in problems.

I do know that we do have alarm systems in some of our buildings, the Poole [phonetic] Alarm Company. That is available to some of our structures, and those systems are utilized. I know some of the tenants do carry also the Victoria Life Line system, I believe it is called, and we encourage that if they feel that there is a problem of anxiety or fear of being alone. Those things are made available on a voluntary basis to the individual tenants in various apartment blocks.

So I would think that in the majority of the cases, the buildings sort of self-manage, in a sense, through the tenants association and through the various resources that we do have and the resources that are available for the tenants to take advantage of it but, like I say, we as Manitoba Housing do not have a policy of checking up on people.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, I appreciate the minister's answer, but the question I am asking specifically first of all before we get into those issues is, will you–I can actually provide you a copy of this letter; I will get the Clerk to copy it for you–which outlines four deaths that occurred. The person I have talked to who lives there said that there have been 20 in the last four years, which may not be a lot for a seniors apartment that has this many units. But what I am asking is if the minister's department or office will follow up.

Mr. Reimer: Certainly. I do not recall seeing that letter come across my desk. We certainly will follow up on that for her.

Ms. Cerilli: That is actually an issue I want to deal with with the minister as well, because the letter was actually addressed simply to whom it may concern. It was sent to the Manitoba Housing Authority. It was not addressed specifically to the minister unless it was just handwritten in. The response that has been given to this particular tenant has been sent by the deputy minister.

I am wondering again: is this common practice for the deputy minister to respond under his signature to tenants without the information coming to the minister's office?

Mr. Reimer: I would think that there is a fair amount of correspondence that is directed through the various departments that I am not privy to or it does not come across my desk. That may have been forwarded to the deputy for a response. To my knowledge, I do not recall seeing that letter coming across my desk, and, as the member said, it may have been directed to him by my staff at Manitoba Housing for a response, but there is a fair amount of corre-spondence that is sent out by the various administrators in my department that I would never be privy to or never see, in response to queries and questions and concerns that possibly tenants might have. So some of the corre-spondence I never see.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I want the minister to see this, so I am going to take my copy apart. I thought I had two copies with me; maybe I gave one of them to my research staff. So, if the committee will bear with me, I am just going to check through this pile to see if I do have a copy in here. No, I do not have another copy, so I am going to have this copied for the minister. [interjection] Well, I want him to see it.

Just so we do not have quite so much dead space, I can proceed.

Mr. Reimer: I was just trying to get some information in regard to the letter whether anybody in the department had seen the letter and just get some background on it. I under-stand that one of the staff is going to get a copy.

Ms. Cerilli: I was just going to say that, while we are waiting to get the copy so that we can deal with the issues around this specific kind of investigation that would follow, I want to pick up on some of the other issues that the minister was raising in terms of the type of buddy system which the tenants' association can be involved with in a seniors complex to try and provide some security for seniors who are living in Manitoba Housing properties.

Can the minister, with the assistance of his staff, explain sort of the procedure for how the buddy system is supposed to work and what the role of the Manitoba Housing staff is?

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Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, as was mentioned a little earlier in regard to the buddy system, our tenant relations officers that we have throughout, we encourage them when they are talking to the tenants associations to try to incorporate some sort of buddy system of lookout for each other, sort of a local neighbour-hood watch, if you want to call it, within their own building.

It is encouraged. There are very innovative ways that some of the tenants associations respond to being awake or being aware of their occupancy. That, as was mentioned, is some-times a card similar to what we see sometimes in hotels, where the card is turned around in the morning signifying that they are awake and they are there. There is even the incidence of turning over their floor mat in front of their unit to indicate that they are there. There are innovative ways of encouraging this type of awareness program. In some of our apartments, they even have what they call floor captains where someone is designated the responsibility to more or less keep an eye on that floor, the residents of that particular floor.

So we encourage it. It is something that is in a fair number of our buildings, and it has worked fairly successfully in its application wherever it has been utilized. It is something that, like I say, in our conversations with the tenants association, we encourage this type of program.

Ms. Cerilli: I understand you are saying the tenants association helps to set up the program and explain it. Is the tenant relations person the one who gets contacted? If there is a problem, whom is the tenant who discovers the problem supposed to report the problem to?

Mr. Reimer: I have been told that usually if there is a problem, if it is a very serious problem, naturally 911 is called immediately or the caretaker is notified. In some cases, if it is a building that is equipped with the distress call cord, that this is pulled, too. Then that goes to our housing communications centre which is manned 24 hours a day, so there is an instant response on that.

Ms. Cerilli: So in the case if tenants contact Manitoba Housing Authority staff, are they in turn just supposed to phone 911?

Mr. Reimer: If it is an apparent emergency, we would recommend that 911 is called immediately. If it is a situation where the cord has been pulled, what happens is it comes up on our monitor at Manitoba Housing, and it instantly recognizes the individual's unit and its phone number, and a phone call is made immediately to that person to ask him what the problem is. An evaluation is made, and if it means sending an emergency responder or something of that nature, then that is handled in that manner. As I mentioned, that is on a 24-hour basis, and it is available for the individuals too.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe we should go then to the specifics of this case now that the minister has these letters in front of me, because it talks about a Mr. Lapointe [phonetic], who was being sort of monitored by friends, tenants in the building. The claim is that a request for assistance was made and nothing was really followed up on, that there was no referral to a medical professional. Staff simply said that they would look into it when they came back from holidays, but Mr. Lapointe [phonetic] did not make it that long and he passed away. Again, on page 2 of the letter I have given to the minister, it said that there has been no inquiry into this. This is pretty serious and raises the question of how medical personnel are contacted. If we are giving responsibilities to tenants to help each other and to then flag somebody, and if that person is not a medical professional, then how is it that medical professionals are going to be contacted to ensure that there is follow-up? It certainly is not going to add to the security of the tenants if they feel like the buddy system does not result in any response.

Mr. Reimer: I can only think that anytime there is any type of–you know, the passing away of a tenant in one of our suites, we would want to be aware of it; and, if there is a responsibility or a concern of the way the person had been treated or looked at, we would want to do some follow-up on that. I can only make the suggestion that I can direct the department to look into this a little bit further and get a little bit more background on it to find out a little bit more as to exactly what transpired in regard to the individual, Mr. Lapointe [phonetic], that the member is referring to, and try to be more cognizant of the background. At this particular time, I cannot speculate as to what transpired or what may have been the position or the condition of how this happened. So, if the member is willing to bear with me, I can try to get more background material on this particular incident.

Ms. Cerilli: I would appreciate him getting back to me with that. I mean, he has already made the commitment that he is going to inquire about the specific cases raised in this letter. But this raises a number of issues. First of all, I want to ask about the training that the staff have who are working with seniors in these blocks. I know in discussions we have had over the years, the minister has made it clear that the staff that are there are not necessarily support staff, that Manitoba Housing does not provide the kind of support staff that would deal with medical conditions or social work or those sorts of issues. Maybe he can clarify that again for me, but because the staff that are there with Manitoba Housing are in a caretaker role or tenant relations role, I am wondering how Manitoba Housing is dealing with the actual needs then that present themselves to the staff in terms of the training that the staff would get related to emergency response, related to dealing with the kind of enquiries that are brought forward in this letter?

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Mr. Reimer: Sorry for taking a little bit of time on that, because I just wanted to get some background as to the number of people we have employed in that position with the tenant relations officer and the tenant resource officers and some of their responsibilities. Their responsibilities are a lot of times in the co-ordination and the administration of the apartments and the buildings that they have been assigned to. They work very closely with the social workers in the area, with the Health department. They work closely with some of the resource people in the communities in looking after trying to co-ordinate activities for seniors.

It is an interesting overlap in regards to myself as Minister of Housing and Minister responsible for Seniors that I see both ends of the spectrum, in a sense, in working with a lot of seniors, because more and more of our apartment blocks now are becoming seniors-occupied units. The shift in the utilization of these buildings for more and more seniors is becoming evident because they were built under certain conditions back in the '60s and '70s. Now with the transition towards more seniors, the demands and the facilities that have to be accommodated for these seniors sometimes put these buildings into an awkward position just because of their conformation. So it is a matter a lot of times of juggling different type of structures and scenarios.

We have been working at trying to even refit some of the buildings to accommodate seniors in some of the facilities of kitchen design. When we are doing remodelling, we are looking at a different type of aspect of remodelling in some of these buildings now, taking into account the fact that we are dealing with a different type of segment of our population which is geared towards the seniors. A lot of our M and I and things like that are going along in that direction and recognizing how we have to accommodate that part of the sector. Like I say, the tenant relations officers and the resource people work very closely with the home care people also in trying to accommodate their requests. They do a fair amount of different types of scenarios, but as for specifics in regard to health care, they are not trained in that type of facility. Some of the people who we have working, their back-grounds, a lot of them were from human ecology and from social work. So they have the training ability to work with people, and that is very, very important, especially like as was mentioned, working with seniors in today's society.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, the point the minister makes in terms of the changing demographics, aging population and more seniors living in Manitoba Housing properties, that is the point I was making in my opening statement, and I do not think that Manitoba Housing is necessarily keeping up with that as best as they could. The minister has made the point, as well, that perhaps there has to be re-examination of the kind of staffing and the kind of qualifications that people have that work with the seniors who live in our Manitoba Housing properties.

But before we really get into that–and I am going to spend quite a bit of time on that. I have been doing a fair bit of consultation on those kinds of issues, not just as it relates to seniors but more broadly. But I want to stick more specifically right now to the specifics around this case. The question I had asked is about the training for the staff that are there. For example, do they have even first aid training, the staff who are working in a seniors block as a caretaker or as an administrator, that are working as a tenant resource worker or tenant relations officer? Are those staff trained with first aid?

Mr. Reimer: Other than CPR, they are not given first aid training unless some of the individuals have taken it on their own. We do not have that as a mandatory requirement in regard to working in some of these apartments or seniors complexes. No, they do not have specific training in regard to health.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, considering these kinds of cases and the kind of clientele or tenants they are working with, do you think that that is a reasonable policy change that could be made for the staff who are working in either seniors or family blocks? There are lots of professions that require their staff to have first aid training and that is required then to be updated. Part of the first aid program, it includes CPR, is that it is required to be updated and upgraded on a regular basis. Would the minister consider that?

Mr. Reimer: I think that is possibly a suggestion that we should explore a little bit further possibly in the fact that, as the member has pointed out, we are working more and more with an aging population, and to be aware of some of the problems that an awareness program of some sort certainly would not hurt or would not harm the tenant relations officer to be part of. Maybe we can look at some sort of awareness program or the availability possibly of a training of sorts towards that end. Yes, we can look at that.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. How about as the minister was talking earlier about the tenant resource worker, in particular, that their responsibilities co-ordinate with social workers in the health field. I know that in some of the not-for-profit housing corporations they have gone to great lengths to develop relationships with home care or other supports. How about with Manitoba Housing, with the ones that are operated, like 101 Marion, by Manitoba Housing? Does this block have a co-ordinated Home Care program where the same nurses are coming in on a regular basis, and it is co-ordinated so that a few nurses are coming in and seeing all the patients, that we are not having a system where each tenant is having to co-ordinate home care on their own, and we get, you know, umpteen nurses coming in at all different hours? Has that been co-ordinated for 101 Marion? Is that something that your department is working on?

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Mr. Reimer: I have been told that one of the primary functions of the tenant resource officers is that exact function, to co-ordinate these types of activities, whether it is 101 Marion or any of our other areas of buildings that these tenant resource people are responsible for. It is to do that co-ordination of home care and nurses and other programs that are needed in that particular area.

We have six of those officers that do that. That is their primary function, to try to bring the resources together in a more co-ordinated and effective manner within the complex that has been under their jurisdiction.

Ms. Cerilli: So that is six tenant resource workers for which region of the Manitoba Housing Authority? It does not sound like you are going to have one per block, and maybe that is not reasonable to request, that that means that you are not going to have someone onsite then. So maybe answer that question first. Six tenant resource workers, how big an area are they covering?

Mr. Reimer: The six that I referred to are in the Winnipeg region, and they are assigned each one or two or whatever blocks or buildings to manage. We also have one in Brandon that co-ordinates the Brandon requests. Like I say, they may look after more than one or two buildings, but the six of them are Winnipeg.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, even if it is three to four, two times six, there are a lot more seniors buildings in the city than just that. So I am wondering, as there are for caretakers where I believe there is a policy where they are supposed to have so many units per caretaker, is there a policy like that for the resource workers? Again, is that something that maybe you should be looking at considering the aging demographic in your properties, considering that seniors are having more health problems, and more other problems, are living longer?

There is a fairly high incidence of poverty amongst this group. Can you tell me, if there are a specific number of tenants that are assigned each resource worker, what that number is? Maybe this is another area that needs to get some reconsideration in terms of resources. Maybe that should not necessarily all come from Housing. Maybe it is the old partnership thing that has to happen with Health or Family Services. Did the minister agree that this is an area that needs attention, and is there a specific policy for the number of tenants?

Mr. Reimer: I have been informed that it is reviewed annually with Health as to the needs and where the program should be co-ordinated out of. It is not based necessarily on units because I think the member can recognize that in some apartment blocks we may have a number of seniors, but there may not be that much of a need for co-ordinating of efforts in that particular building. So we work fairly closely with Health, looking at where the demographics and the needs are more severe for utilization of these programming co-ordinations.

So that becomes a criteria in which type of load, if you want to call it, that each of these tenant resource people take on. But, as I mentioned, it is reviewed annually with Health and we work very closely with Health in trying to allocate where the resource persons are utilized.

Ms. Cerilli: To answer my question though, there is no specific policy that says as it does for caretakers: so many tenants or units per worker.

Mr. Reimer: That is right. We cannot do that because the caretaker's job is a specific number-related function whereas a resource person is related more to a needs function.

Ms. Cerilli: That makes some sense. I think what the minister is saying is that you cannot assign a specific number because the client's needs are different, and one tenant may take a lot more time so it cannot be a number. I would think though that there is still some need for some kind of policy examination in this area and reviewing it on an annual basis. I do not know if there is a report that is made from Health. Is this something that the department is currently trying to focus on given what we have just been talking about in terms of the growing needs in Manitoba Housing properties?

Mr. Reimer: The member alluded to the co-ordination and the co-operation between the Health department and that. In discussion with the staff, they mentioned that this is becoming more and more of an ongoing dialogue with Health because of, as the member mentioned, the demographics and the aging population and the condition of the buildings and the spread throughout the areas of Winnipeg and Manitoba with seniors, that the awareness of trying to satisfy the needs for the seniors is becoming more and more evident. As has been pointed out, there are more and more meetings that are being co-ordinated with trying to facilitate the co-ordination of resources and needs and manpower. So it is becoming more prevalent. It is something that I, as Housing minister and Seniors minister, am becoming more cognizant of. If anything, I would think that it has to play a greater role in some of the decisions and the directions that government has to take, that is, recognizing where the needs are and assigning or reassigning resources to try to satisfy those needs. That is something that maybe we have to be more aware of within our departments, that is, this co-ordination. I think that is something that we would take very seriously. We are there to try to serve the public better in a certain situation in regard to either their age or their physical condition or their economic condition. There is a social responsibility that government must fulfill.

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Ms. Cerilli: As I said earlier, I am going to spend a lot of time on this particular area, but right now I just want to clarify one more thing and then move on. As you are having these discussions with Health then, do you have actual written agreements in place, contractual agree-ments in terms of the home care provision? I just want to get a better sense of how this is working in terms of–well, we will stick with this specific example of providing home care. I know you have also mentioned mental health services. There are a whole range of services that would need to be co-ordinated.

Mr. Reimer: There is not a fixed set of contracts or conditions in regard to the various aspects of dealing with Health. The only place where there are agreements between Housing and Health is in the funding that is provided to the Housing for the meal program that Health provides. There is a contractual agreement there, and also in the allocation of funding by Health for the support services for seniors, that is done on a contractual basis.

As for the other overlaps, as was mentioned, those are done on interdepartmental meetings and co-ordinations, but not in a formal con-tractual basis of working together.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, this is what we are talking about though is these support services, so maybe give me a little bit more of a description of what that contract includes with Health, the contract for support services for seniors.

Mr. Reimer: I was just getting some clarification as to the funding on the support services for seniors. It goes for staffing. It goes for the meal programs. There is a bit of a difference between the city and the rural area, because in the rural area a lot of times the building is provided by Manitoba Housing, and the meals are prepared by a nonprofit or volunteer group and the funding goes to them. So there are various types of arrangements with that. But in our locations in Winnipeg, there are cooks that are paid for by the support services for seniors, so that is where that funding usually goes towards.

Ms. Cerilli: Can we get a little more specific? I mean this is Estimates. You said before that there are six resource workers. I am assuming that those are the ones that are paid through this agreement. How many other staff?

An Honourable Member: How many in numbers?

Ms. Cerilli: What the dollars are for Manitoba Health in this kind of agreement that cover them and the number of staff.

Mr. Reimer: I can get the newest figures, but the figures that we have available right here are from 1997-98. It was $122,000 that was obtained from Health. There are 12 food service workers that are under that umbrella of funding. The total amount of money that was paid out was $172,000, so the shortfall was picked up by Manitoba Housing. We can most likely get that number in the next day or two regarding what the current numbers are.

Ms. Cerilli: This is very interesting, because this is an area that I have been talking about for a number of years now in terms of the kind of co-operation between Manitoba Health for services and Housing. As I was saying, I think this is an area that really has to be expanded, given that Manitoba Housing is not providing these kinds of direct services. So the $122,000 then was to cover 12 food service workers and six resource co-ordinators? [interjection] No? Just the cooks. So the resource workers are paid through Housing then?

Mr. Reimer: No, they are also paid by Health but under a separate line or a separate issuance of funding.

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Ms. Cerilli: Rather than going through this back and forth, I can just ask: can I have a copy of last year's agreement on this, just to get a sense of what is involved?

Mr. Reimer: Sure, we can get that for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: I am going to go back then to this issue where it originated, and that is talking about 101 Marion. The letter that the minister now has, I think it asks a question, you know, what kind of relationship there is between–I am not sure if this is in the letter or not or just in a conversation I had with the tenants–you know, common sense relationships that would occur between a property like this that is so close to St. Boniface Hospital and the issue we were discussing earlier about the kind of investigation or inquiry that would be done after these types of deaths.

I just want to clarify, then, if the minister's department received any report from the Chief Medical Examiner or any information on the deaths, or is that not something that would occur if there was an investigation into any of these deaths by the Chief Medical Examiner?

Mr. Reimer: Nothing has been brought to our attention.

Ms. Cerilli: Attached to those letters as well, the minister also has a couple more letters exchanged between this tenant and the deputy minister. It was surprising to me that, in the response to this original letter, the deputy minister had said: Maybe you should use the buddy system. Then the tenant wrote back and said: We did use the buddy system, and the result was there was no follow-up and the tenant that we reported as having difficulty has passed away.

Is the minister not concerned that the deputy minister would respond to this tenant to use the buddy system when the buddy system was used and in place? Is that not something that should have been followed up prior to that kind of response being written by the deputy minister?

I am concerned that this has occurred. The deputy minister seems to not be aware of what is in place at 101 Marion Street and to have written that kind of a letter.

Mr. Reimer: I am not really sure whether there is a buddy system involved in 101 Marion. One of the things that we have to be aware of too is that it is a voluntary system. It is a system that some people do not want to be involved with because they feel that it is an invasion of their privacy and they do not want to be bothered with that type of scrutiny, if you want to call it. I think that it is something that has to be aware of. If the tenants' association recommend it, that is one thing, but it is another thing whether all the tenants want to participate in it. It is a voluntary type of involvement by the tenants. That is something that has to be taken into account.

As to 101 Marion, I really do not know whether they have any type of system of checking up on each other in that building or not, but I am sure we can make inquiries to find out exactly whether they have some sort of awareness system in that building.

Ms. Cerilli: I can appreciate what the minister is saying. The tenant claims that there was a buddy system, but if I understand what the minister is saying, maybe that is not sort of a formal program that is being run through the whole apartment. But, in the minds of the tenants that contacted the Manitoba Housing Authority staff, they were a buddy; they were this fellow's friend. They asked for him to get some support, and that did not occur. I am interested to know if, in fact, there is some kind of a program. This is a large seniors block, a very active tenant association that certainly sounds like they would be receptive to doing something like that. In fact, they are doing it on at least an informal basis, on a friendly basis currently.

But I think that what this incident shows us is there has to be a more clear process for following up on tenant complaints about their fellow tenants and their friends, especially if there already is an agreement with Health providing services in those buildings where home care is coming in. I do not know if this particular individual was receiving home care or not. I am sure all of that would become part of the investigation or the kind of inquiries that the minister is going to be making. It goes back to the whole issue I was raising earlier about the training that the staff have had. It would make sense, you know, if this client was getting home care, that the staff that were involved would know that and would be able to have someone probably the same day or the next day be investigating the kind of complaints that were coming forward about the tenant.

I am wondering if that is how the process would work, if the minister would agree that this is a concern, if there is a response that is not satisfactory to tenants, if they really are concerned and they feel like they are doing a good deed by trying to help out their fellow tenant and feel like they are not getting the kind of response that is warranted.

Mr. Reimer: I think that there is a lot of merit in what the member is alluding to in regards to trying to be on top of situations that happen in any building, whether it is 101 Marion or any other building. This is one of the reasons why, if there is a strong tenants association, which the member has alluded to–I believe that this building does have a tenants association. I believe that they are in the process of being re-established right now, because they are going through some restructuring of their membership. These are some of the things that should be talked about, possibly by our resource officer in the establishment of some suggestions of guidelines, some working with the tenants association in setting up some sort of system of volunteer participation and an awareness to the problems there and then working with the tenants in that manner.

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I think that there is a recognition that we have to be very careful because some people are just very jealous of their time and their personal lives and they do not want to be involved. No matter how we feel that there is a need for some sort of awareness program, they have the freedom of choice. I think that what is important, though, is that the options are out-lined to the tenants, pointing out the advantages of some sort of neighbourhood watch type of program within the buildings, because it has been proven that on a larger scale, Neighbour-hood Watch has significantly had strong benefits in any community that it goes into, whether it is in a residential area or whether it is in an apart-ment block. Neighbours watching neighbours has a great benefit to reducing crime or, as mentioned here, if a person is sick or has an injury, there is a contact made to try to help these persons.

These are some of the things that I think have to be addressed by possibly the resource person in talking to the tenants association. As mentioned with 101 Marion, I would think that with the new tenants association that is coming on stream that these are some things that should be brought to their attention.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues that is raised by the tenant that is written to the department is–and this has been raised a number of times in other buildings–the practice by the department to change the 55-plus exclusivity of these buildings and start integrating other people, particularly those that have a variety of other medical conditions.

This is a difficult issue. I know we have discussed this before. I am wanting to see what kind of progress the department is making in terms of some of the same issues around the staff that are working there and the kind of supports that people have.

When I was visiting 101 Marion, there was a young gentleman who approached us looking for change, and the tenant that I was meeting with informed me that he was a schizophrenic patient. Particularly in the case of 101 Marion with their close proximity to St. Boniface Hospital and the psych ward, if there are vacancies in that property, then work can be done to try and integrate other folks, but the supports have to be there.

The question I am getting at is: are there currently specific agreements with Health, with the Mental Health division in terms of the supports that are being provided for the tenants that are living in Manitoba Housing properties that have mental health problems? Can you give me some more specifics about the nature of those kind of supports; and the number of people now that are living in Manitoba Housing who are psychiatric outpatients or who have a history of mental health problems; if they are being dispersed–this is the third question, I think–throughout a number of the properties, if they are being concentrated in certain buildings where there are the spaces available? And I will stop there, three.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, it is indeed a very interesting topic. As was explained to me by staff, dealing with the mental health aspect of tenants in buildings, one of biggest items that was brought to my attention that I was not aware of is the so-called labelling of mental health patients, that that is not done anymore. Theoretically, with our public housing, people can make application, and if eligibility criteria are met, they can go into our facilities. Unless there is a specific notation made by that individual that they are under the care and concern of a medical social worker, that is the only time that the building superintendent or Manitoba Housing becomes aware that there is a problem there, you know, that the person is seeking treatment. The other thing is that we do not have agreements with Manitoba Health in regard to the housing or the care of people with mental health problems.

In dealing with the resource officers, here, again, it has been pointed out that there are ongoing meetings with Manitoba Health. There are also discussions of probably the training possibility of some of the resource workers in their recognition of problems and possible handling of some of these problems.

So what we are faced with is the confidentiality of the person, the patient, and the fact of Health wanting to have people dispensed into the community and not concentrated in one particular area. Those are some of the challenges that staff and the two departments are trying to come to a resolve on, but I guess it is just something we have to work at even closer.

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Ms. Cerilli: Well, I appreciate what the minister is saying in terms of confidentiality, and I understand that. I guess I should also be cautious, you know, conscious of the way I am referring to this, as well, but I have had discussions with quite a few people in the community, and I know that the ministry has had a committee that made a number of recommen-dations, so this is not as ad hoc as the minister is suggesting by his last answer.

There has been a decision made by Manitoba Housing and other community organi-zations to place people who have mental health problems into Manitoba Housing vacant properties, vacant suites, particularly in the elderly housing. That is correct, right?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, that is right.

Ms. Cerilli: I know some of the research that I have done only going up to 1983, but it is a pretty shocking figure when you look at statistics that show, this is Canada-wide, that between 1960 and 1983, the number of psychiatric hospital beds in Canada fell from 47,633 to 7,935. That is pretty incredible. So all of those people have been, as the minister has suggested–and the trend has continued into the 1990s–released into the community without the necessary supports. Housing is one of the key areas that there have not been the dollars flowing from Health into other community services to provide the kind of supports that these folks need.

I guess what I want to ask, first of all, is if the report done by the committee in Manitoba Housing that involved mental health community agencies and Manitoba Health staff has been released to the public or if I can have a copy of that report, and if all the recommendations have indeed been implemented.

Mr. Reimer: I have been told the report that the member is referring is a joint departmental report with Health and Housing. It has not been released yet. I believe that it was a working document-type of report, was it not? It has not been released. No.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, the obvious question is: Why is it not being released? If the recommen-dations are being followed up on, then can the minister tell me what recommendations are being implemented? How many recommen-dations were in the report in total and the kind of direction that it is providing to the department? Is that being followed?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I have been told that, as to the exact number of recommendations, we would have to check the report on it, because we do not have the report with us or the timetable of events or functions on it or recommendations on it, but from what I have been told, there are still reports being worked on. There is a working group committee to review the existing practices, the consulting team. There were people from Manitoba Housing, Canada Mental Health Association, the Salvation Army, Mental Health Services, Home Care. They have tried to identify the com-ponents on the overall plan. The working group still meets on an as-required basis. That is as much as I can relate for the information part that we have at this particular time on that.

Ms. Cerilli: So we have a working group that meets on an ad hoc basic that is implementing these recommendations. Can you tell me when the last time they met?

Mr. Reimer: We can try to find that out. We do not know offhand right at this particular time, but we can try to find out when it last met.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess you can tell me that this afternoon. Well, I am concerned about this. I will come back to this area, I think, maybe after. It is an area that I know is causing concern for some of the tenants that live in Manitoba Housing, and as I have said before, it is a difficult issue to sort of balance the needs of the various tenants that live there.

How is the government responding to tenants who are seniors that have lived in some of these properties for quite a few years and are now coming into conflict with some of the younger tenants that are being moved in? How does the government deal with that?

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Mr. Reimer: In an overall statement I think that what we try to do is in a lot of the buildings that have a fair amount of seniors, we try to keep it that way. We want to try to have the building more or less occupied by seniors. What does transpire or what does happen from time to time is some of these buildings, because of the configuration and because of the mix of various suites in them or units in them, there is a vacancy problem that persists, and then it becomes necessary sometimes to mix, if you want to call it, some of these buildings into younger residents moving into them. It is not necessarily done to all of our buildings. I am told there are approximately maybe six or eight of our buildings that do have that type of designation of having younger people in there. In some cases where there are problems with some of these seniors who are in those buildings, we have actually moved them if they feel uncomfortable, and we will pay for their moving, too, to accommodate them to another block. So it is something that has grown out of the necessity to try to get a better utilization of the building, but like I say, it is not prevalent in all our buildings.

Ms. Cerilli: So the minister's response then, and the way they are dealing with these conflicts between tenants that are seniors and younger tenants that are being moved in, is you will offer to move the senior to a building that is exclusively seniors. How many tenants have you had to move?

Mr. Reimer: I am told that we have only had to move one.

Ms. Cerilli: I understand, and the minister can maybe confirm, these are the six properties that have been sort of declared or designated as non-elderly now that previously were seniors 55-plus Manitoba Housing buildings. Those are 375 Assiniboine, 24 Carlton, 260 Nassau, 170 Hendon, 195 Young Street and 330 Blake Street. Is that the extent of the list or are there a few more? How many non-seniors or non-55 plus tenants have been moved into those buildings?

Mr. Reimer: I have been told that 330 Blake has always been family. The one on Young Street, I forget the address, 195 Young Street was always designated as a mixed unit.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister did not answer my question. It was: how many people have been moved there, and are there any more than on this list?

Mr. Reimer: There are four others that should be on that list: 515 Elgin, 269 Dufferin, 185 Smith and the one that we were talking about earlier, 101 Marion. As for the turnover, it has been pointed out to me that with the younger tenants, there is a fair amount of turnover in that sector, but the seniors even though they are in those buildings still remain in those buildings, and in fact there have been incidents where a lot of the seniors do like some of the younger people in the buildings. A lot of these younger people will work with them and help them and carry their groceries. There is quite a lot of interaction, intergenerational co-operation, so it is not as if–even though there are seniors in these buildings–there is a conflict. A lot of times they enjoy some of the youthful activity that goes on in these buildings.

As seniors minister, I have found that the designation of seniors becomes quite broad in the sense of participation and activity and energy of some of the seniors that I have come across. It is hard to classify people as seniors now because they can be very, very active.

Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify then before I go on, it was 269 which street?

Mr. Reimer: 269 Dufferin, 185 Smith, 101 Marion and 515 Elgin.

Ms. Cerilli: I am pleased to hear that there are positive examples. I guess we often get some of the negative experiences raised with us. I do not want to suggest that this cannot potentially be a positive thing for some seniors and other tenants that are moving in there as well. I am interested in getting some of the specifics on the turnover and vacancies in some of these buildings, and I just want to inquire then again. It is 10 to 12. Have we had the information sent down here that I was requesting at the beginning?

Mr. Reimer: The package was sent over, but I am told it was the wrong package.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, we will have lots of time to deal with this because the issues that I am wanting to get into now have to do with, I think, a combination of what we have been talking about, trying to adapt Manitoba Housing properties to meet the needs of our changing populations and at the same time trying to fill vacancies. That has been, I think, an ongoing problem for the minister and for the department.

I am wanting, first of all, before I go on, to see if the government has been reviewing two reports. One I referenced earlier this week. It was done on July 23, 1990, Elderly Persons Housing Vacancy Study for Winnipeg: A Discussion Paper. The other one was actually done by CMHC. It was done in 1991, Policy Perspectives on Public Housing. I am wondering if the minister and his staff have looked at these two reports and what has become of them in the department.

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Mr. Reimer: I have been told that the depart-ment is aware of the one report. The one in regard to the CMHC, the staff that are here may not be aware of it, but if a copy can be made we would certainly make that available to staff for review also.

Ms. Cerilli: I will be pleased to copy this for you. It is actually an Appendix 3 of a larger document that I do not have, and I do not know what it is a part of. But am I to understand then that this is not something that Manitoba Housing has looked at? The kind of report it is, is not necessarily making specific recommendations, but it deals with the pros and cons of a number of issues, everything from the kinds of things we have been talking about of providing the support for seniors in public housing, to dealing with vacancies, to dealing with redesigning, to dealing with training for staff. It is a very good report. So am I to understand that this is something that has not been–and I will pass it over for you to look at.

Mr. Reimer: Maybe I should have qualified the statement. It may be in our department. It is just that possibly–from 1991. It may be in the department; it may have been utilized. It may have been by some of our policy people. But what we can do, as mentioned, is we can make a copy of this and then maybe get it back to the member, or if she wants to make a copy and make it available. [interjection] Okay, then we will take this and make a copy.

The policy department may be aware of this. It is just that the people who are with me today do not have the instant recollection of this one from 1991. So we will make a copy of this and get it back to the member as soon as possible.

Ms. Cerilli: I am actually going to give my colleague for Transcona here a chance to ask some questions specifically about his area, and we will come back to these reports after.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, thanks to my colleague for giving me this opportunity to ask questions dealing with public housing unit stock in the community of Transcona and Radisson, which is part of the community as well.

I have written to the minister in the past and asked questions on this in the past relating to housing stock, in particular, work at, I think it is, 460 Dowling East in Transcona. I notice just recently, in communication with my constituent, the department finally, after quite an extensive period of time, has commenced some of the repairs. I thank the minister for having his department undertake those works, and I hope they will be completed in short order.

There is still the outstanding issue, though, of other housing units in the community, essentially side-by-side living accommodations, which would be on Dowling East at the other end of that same block, that have been for some time without any significant repairs done to them. There are other streets in the community that have public housing units on them as well, most of it in East Transcona.

I am wondering what efforts you are making. Are there budget allocations for the upgrade, maintenance and repair of those facilities, so that my office does not have to continue to receive concerned calls from neighbours and from residents living in those units about the deplorable state of repair? The residents living next to those units are complaining to me, because they tell me it is lowering the value of their houses. The mortgages that they have on them, of course, they are continuing to pay, and yet their values are dropping. So they are concerned about that, and the people who are living in those public housing units are concerned about the lack of maintenance that is occurring.

Now I know you have put some chain-link fences around some of them and attempted to repair the yard itself. You have taken down the old wooden fences that were lying in a dilapidated state for an extensive period of time, and I am talking years here. But there is still the ongoing need for maintenance of those units, internal to them and external. Even a coat of paint sometimes would help. There does not seem to be that ongoing maintenance, and it is becoming, in some cases, an eyesore for the surrounding community.

So perhaps the minister can give me some update on what the plans are for his department with respect to upgrading those public housing units that I have described.

Mr. Reimer: The ongoing repairs of a lot of our units is something that we take very seriously. In fact, we allocated last year, I guess it was, $10 million for upgrades and improvements for our stock, and this year I believe our budget line on that is around $11 million for the same types of expenditures.

I have been told that the area that the member is referring to is something that we have identified as an area where we do have to do some upgrades, we do have to do some improvements in that area. In fact, I believe that senior staff are going to be going out there and taking a physical assessment and a walk-about, if you want to call it, and look at those particular areas. It has been identified as an area that needs repairs and some sort of upgrading. We have included in this year's budget for some of these, and we are looking within the department for reallocation of funding towards some sort of improvements in that particular area.

Mr. Reid: I appreciate when the minister says that he has identified or the department has identified need or are in the process of doing so. I do not think it is a secret. I mean those needs have been identified for some time. I am sure the department has this information. I know my constituents have called the department and have expressed concerns and have been working with the department for over a year, perhaps more than two years in some cases, with respect to the maintenance of those units. I know this one unit at 460 Dowling East, it took us the better part of two years to get any movement on that particular facility, and if was not for the begging and pleading of both myself and the constituent, that project still would not be in the works and well underway.

So I am looking here for some concrete assurances that you will have the opportunity to commence those repairs and that needed main-tenance in this budget year and not put off to another budget year for further reconsideration and identification as seems to be taking place.

Mr. Reimer: No, I will make the commitment of having someone out there next week to take a walk-about and do an assessment of it. It has been identified, and we will look at finding funding within.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The time being twelve o'clock, committee rise.