Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have a number of announcements for the House arising out of the committee meeting this morning.

First of all, just by way of amendment, in calling the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources with respect to the Workers Compensation Board, I believe for next Tuesday, omitted were the 1998 and 1999 five-year operating plans of the WCB. So at this time I would like to amend that call to include those two documents so that the committee could have a full consideration of the annual reports and appropriate operating plans. So I make that amendment at this time.

Secondly, what our plan for today is, I will be seeking leave of the House for us to sit two Estimates committees this afternoon, one with respect to Industry, Trade and Tourism, the other with respect to Education, while a committee of the House, the Committee on Law Amendments, continues to sit in the committee room where it was sitting this morning. We would ask if I, T and T, as well, could be, with the consent of this House, moved into the Chamber for the course of this afternoon.

If there is agreement for that, as I believe there will be, we would also ask that if the Committee on Law Amendments completes its work before we reassemble for private members' hour, then the third Committee of Supply of Estimates continue to sit for Health in the committee room for the time that is remaining in the afternoon.

So that is what we are seeking leave for. I believe if you canvass the House, there will be such agreement, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to, firstly, have the Standing Committee on Law Amendments reconvene in Room 255, then have two sections of Committee of Supply running concurrently, Education in 254 and move Industry, Trade and Tourism into the Chamber? If the Standing Committee on Law Amendments completes its business prior to private members' hour at 5 p.m., then the Department of Health to resume its Estimates in Room 255. Agreed? [agreed]

Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, the following committee change was moved this morning by leave in the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. I am now going to be moving the same change in the House so that the official record will be correct.

I move, seconded by the member for Pembina (Mr. Pitura), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: the member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) for the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).

I move, seconded by the member for Pembina, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for this afternoon's session be amended as follows: the member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) for the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine).

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): The following committee change was moved this morning by leave in the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. I am now moving the same change in the House so that the official record will be correct.

I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Concordia (Mr. Doer) for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

I move, seconded by the member for Broadway, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Crescent-wood (Mr. Sale).

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty.

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Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the committee meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, we were considering item 16.1 Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 46 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I think the minister had a number of things to table, the exam results, any material from the Council of Ministers of Education and several things which I had asked for previously in Estimates. I wonder if the minister would like to table those now.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, yes, I appreciate that question. I think each day there are some undertakings that I generally make, and I like to follow through on them as soon as I can. Sometimes it takes longer to make information available, but if it does not have to, then it should not. So, in that spirit, I would like to table some stuff and also make some information available in response to questions raised.

The honourable member asked about the agreement between the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation and the Province of Manitoba. She asked for the tabling of that agreement, and I do not blame her because I think it is a very good arrangement for students in Manitoba. So I now table that particular agreement.

The honourable member for Wolseley also asked for the Canada-Manitoba Agreement on Labour Market Development, and I am making that agreement available this afternoon.

The honourable member asked about an update on the response to the Report on the Health of Manitoba Children, the so-called Postl report. This, by the way, is Canada's first population health report on children and youth. It was released in March of 1995 by myself, I might add, in another capacity. It was referred to the Children and Youth Secretariat for processing of the recommendations and to provide leadership on implementation. Recom-mendations address determinants of health and cross-departmental boundaries. The emphasis is on resiliency and building protective factors. There is a population health focus, and that focus addresses the multifactors which facilitate well-being, and the emphasis was on improving the health of aboriginal children and youth.

At the time of the release of the document, there were already 40 of its recommendations which were in the process of implementation. Currently, 90 recommendations have been implemented and are ongoing. Twelve are in process. Nine have been referred to a specific department. On three of them, no action will be taken. Two of them are under consideration. The Children and Youth Secretariat uses the report, The Health of Manitoba's Children, as a source for its strategic planning, and questions about that could be further directed to the secretariat or to my colleague the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

The honourable member asked about the national agenda of the Council of Ministers of Education of Canada, known as the CMEC. The CMEC Secretariat was created almost 30 years ago from an evident need–

Ms. Friesen: I know it is not a point of order, but the minister has changed subjects. He has gone from the Postl report to CMEC, and I had understood that he was going to table a report on what the government had achieved since the presentation of the Postl report over the last three or four years. Is that the case, or was what the minister summarized what he is going to present?

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Wolseley did not have a point of order.

Mr. Chairperson: Did the minister wish to continue his response?

Mr. McCrae: Just to save the Chair the problem that arises when a point of order is raised, because I realize that when a point of order is raised, some ruling has to be made, and I do not think having ruled that there is no point of order that you need to worry anymore, Mr. Chairman.

But I would point out that the honourable member's point is, while not necessarily a point of order, a good point nonetheless. What I said to her was basically the update that I wanted to give to the honourable member in response to the discussion yesterday. At the end of my brief report, I did say that if there are issues or questions arising from the Postl report, they could be directed to the secretariat or to the minister, or the honourable member could try me,and if I am able to, I would certainly try to be responsive to anything that she raises with me. But, generally speaking, the lead with respect to the implementation of the report on Manitoba's children is held by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) in her capacity as the lead minister responsible for the Children and Youth Secretariat. So I gave the honourable member simply a brief rundown of the general response to the report, and the specifics would have to come out in another way.

If that is okay, then I will move on to the CMEC Secretariat. The secretariat was created almost 30 years ago from an evident need for ministers and ministers of Education to benefit from the experience of other jurisdictions, to provide economies of scale where possible, to provide the ministers opportunities to interact formally and informally, and to represent the educational interests of the provinces. Now this is not unlike the same type of council that exists for ministers of Environment, because so much of what we do in our country is national in scope, and sometimes if it is not, some aspects of it should be. We can learn a lot from our colleagues in other parts of the country, and I have found in my experience in various ministries that the opportunity to share experiences and advice with colleagues from other provinces and the federal government has been a very useful part of our confederation. It helps keep our country a united country. Sometimes we borrow from other provinces and sometimes we lead.

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In Manitoba's case in the last 11 years or so, there have been repeated examples of Manitoba taking a leading role. In 1993, ministers released a Pan-Canadian agenda on intentions for education. This release was called the Victoria agreement. In this declaration ministers stated that CMEC's actions would focus on the following four themes: quality of education, accountability, accessibility and mobility.

Currently, today, provincial ministers are in the process of revising the 1993 declaration to make it more relevant to the rapidly changing global environment. Priority issues identified by provinces to be incorporated into CMEC's national agenda include lifelong learning, education for a changing economy, education as a tool for international competitiveness, post-secondary education access, transitions and clarity of pathways, labour market mobility, appropriate use of technology in education and aboriginal education. By the way, on aboriginal education, I have to share with you that on matters related to aboriginal issues, provinces like Manitoba and Saskatchewan always have to take the lead, and Alberta and sometimes B.C. and sometimes others, but almost always Manitoba and Saskatchewan, have to take the lead because on major issues other provinces come to the table without the briefing that you will get in Manitoba and Saskatchewan delegations. The reason for that is pretty obvious, and that is that we enjoy relatively large aboriginal populations in our provinces.

So we have to be concerned about issues of importance, not only to aboriginal people but to our whole society. That is something that has come about, if not because we want to, which I doubt, but because of necessity. Aboriginal issues play a very significant role in all of our issues in Manitoba education and in health and in justice and in all of those things.

Sometimes it is a frustrating thing. I remember taking the issue of substance abuse to an Attorney Generals' conference and getting the response from one or two other ministers from across the country: well, that is not really a problem with us. So we did not really get them involved in discussions in this case of substance abuse, which is a very serious issue in this part of the country. So it is both frustrating and sometimes not so frustrating in that we can show by example or by participation that Manitoba can play a leading role, and very often we share that with the Province of Saskatchewan at these types of meetings. It goes further than that, that you make some pretty good friends from all political persuasions that are represented at these meetings.

CMEC continues to play a very significant role in a number of continuing initiatives. Examples include the official languages program, Pan-Canadian Student Achievement Indicators Program, the public expectations on post-secondary education project. On that one, Saskatchewan is the lead jurisdiction for that particular work, and sometimes Manitoba takes that role, depending on the project. But we are pleased to partner with provinces like Saskatchewan and other provinces in these very important projects.

Another continuing initiative is the copy-right initiative. Another one is the elementary and secondary learning outcomes frameworks, student financial assistance, teacher mobility, education-related international activities. In partnership with Statistics Canada, the Canadian education statistics council was created. Major initiatives currently underway through this collaborative effort include the Pan-Canadian Education Indicators Program and the pan-Canadian education research agenda.

Additionally, representatives from the CMEC Secretariat and provincial ministries work directly with Statistics Canada's centre for education statistics on such programs as conditions of education and post-secondary enhanced student information system. CMEC supports the work of the Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials, CICIC, assists Canada in carrying out its obligations under the terms of the UNESCO convention to promote international mobility.

The honourable member asked also about the highlights of CMEC's post-secondary education agenda. There is a background in that in February of 1997, ministers established a consortium-based initiative to examine post-secondary education issues. A public expectations of post-secondary education project was initiated. As this initiative developed, the following three ancillary projects have emerged: learner pathways and transitions, accessibility and post-secondary education research.

In regard to the public expectations of post-secondary education report–this is the one where Saskatchewan is the lead jurisdiction–in February of 1999, ministers released a report on public expectations for post-secondary education in Canada. The report was prepared through a collaborative effort of nine provinces and one territory with extensive consultation with education partners. Saskatchewan acted as the lead province. Quebec and Yukon opted for observer status. Manitoba's representative was Leo LeTourneau from the Council on Post-Secondary Education. The key areas of expectations identified in the report are as follows: quality, accessibility, mobility, relevance and responsiveness, research and scholarship and accountability.

The report points out that provincial government's play an important role in supporting post-secondary education initiatives through policy, legislation, funding and accountability. New Brunswick, with respect to learner pathways and transitions, is the lead province on this initiative. A review and examination of issues pertaining to four key transition points has been initiated. The four points are from secondary to post-secondary education, through post-secondary education, from post-secondary education to the labour market, and between different education sectors such as college and university. Work has proceeded in two stages. A background paper on learner transitions and pathways as well as a series of challenge papers covering a range of issues were developed, and a set of three multistakeholder round table consultations were conducted across Canada in Halifax, Calgary and Toronto. A work plan is currently being developed for jurisdiction review and use.

With respect to post-secondary expectations thematic initiative on accessibility, in September 1998, ministers agreed that a thematic initiative on accessibility would be undertaken as part of the CMEC post-secondary expectations project. British Columbia agreed to be the lead province for this initiative. A work plan was prepared by British Columbia in consultation with an interprovincial PEP, post-secondary expectations project steering committee. Manitoba provided input.

The work plan lists the following six major themes related to accessibility that are of interest and concern to all jurisdictions, K to S4 to post-secondary education transition, access to post-secondary education as a force for social and economic mobility, technology-mediated learning as a means of enhancing access, inter-provincial mobility and access, access and financing issues, access and lifelong learning.

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With respect to post-secondary education research, in 1998, a working group on post-secondary research was created. The terms of reference for the group are as follows: to act as a network to share information among provinces and territories on policy initiatives, programs and data on post-secondary education research in their jurisdictions; to develop proposals for CMEC activities related to post-secondary education research; to conduct studies and develop position papers on post-secondary education research as directed by CMEC; and, to act as a focal point for CMEC initiatives on post-secondary education research.

The working group is chaired by Alberta. Manitoba's representative is Leo LeTourneau from the Council on Post-Secondary Education. Priority issues identified by jurisdictions focus on quality and accountability including provincial policies on research in the post-secondary education sector, research quality and accountability, the role of the federal and provincial governments and post-secondary education and research on the economy. An action plan is being developed by the working group. Thank you.

Oh, there is one more, I am sorry. The honourable member asked also about school achievement indicators program, or SAIP. In response to that question, the following results for Manitoba have been summarized with regard to the 1996, 1997 and 1998 SAIP assessments. With respect to the 1996 SAIP science assessment, the SAIP science assessment measured student performance in terms of what students should know and be able to do in four areas of the science curriculum: knowledge and concepts of science, the nature of science, the relationship of science to technology and societal issues, science inquiry skills. There was a written portion and practical task assessment portion to this assessment. For the results, student achievement was based on a five-point scale with five being the highest level of performance. In the written portion of the test, Manitoba results were as follows: 73 percent of English-speaking 13-year-old students in Manitoba performed at Level II or above. This result is essentially the same as the national average of 72 percent. Sixty-eight percent of 16-year-old Manitoba students in English, français and French immersion programs performed at Level III or above.

These results are also consistent with the national average of 69 percent. Sixty percent of 13-year-old Manitoba students in français and French immersion programs performed at Level II or above. This result was much less than the national average which saw 72 percent of students perform at these levels. At both age groups, girls performed as well as boys of the same age in both the written and practical tasks.

With respect to the 1997 SAIP mathematics assessment, the mathematics assessment measured student performance of five levels representing a continuum of mathematical knowledge and skills acquired by students over the entire elementary and secondary school experience. Level I describes the very early stages of mathematical competency, while Level V describes the full competency acquired by a student at or near the end of secondary school. The content portion focused on four areas: numbers and operations, algebra and functions, measurement and geometry, and data management and statistics. The problem-solving portion of the test involved practical application of mathematics concepts.

The results in mathematics content for the overall Manitoba student population: 53 percent of 13-year-old students scored at Level II or above, and 59 percent of Canadian students achieved at Level II. For 16-year-olds, 54 per-cent of the overall Manitoba student population scored at Level III or above compared to 60 percent of Canadian students who achieved at Level III or above. In mathematics problem solving for the overall Manitoba student population, 46 percent of 13-year-old students scored at Level II or above, and 52 percent of Canadian students achieved at Level II. For 16-year-olds, 41 percent of the overall Manitoba student population scored at Level III or above compared to 40 percent of Canadian students who achieved at Level III or above.

In both mathematics content and problem solving, 13-year-old English program students from Manitoba demonstrated lower performance than the rest of Canada at Levels II and III. In mathematics content, 16-year-old English program students from Manitoba demonstrated lower performance than the rest of Canada at Levels II, III, and IV. In problem solving, Manitoba 13-year-old students in the English language program performed as well as the rest of Canada at all levels except Levels II and III. Manitoba 16-year-old students in the English program performed as well as the rest of Canada at Levels I, II, III and V.

Results of 1997 compared to 1993: in terms of mathematics content 1997, 59 percent of 13-year-old students in Canada were able to perform at Level II or above. In Manitoba 52 percent of English program students and 62 percent of French immersion and français students were able to perform at this level.

These scores are slightly higher for Manitoba students than those attained in the 1993 study which showed 64 percent of 13-year-old students in Canada, 48 percent of English program Manitoba students and 61 percent of French immersion and français Manitoba students performing at these levels.

In the 1997 study, 60 percent of 16-year-old students in Canada performed at Level III or above in mathematics content. In Manitoba 53 percent of English program students and 61 percent of French immersion and français students performed at this level. This is very similar to the 1993 results which showed that 62 percent of 16-year-old students in Canada performed at Level III or above, and 51 percent of English program Manitoba students and 64 percent of French immersion and français Manitoba students performed at this level.

With respect to the 1998 reading and writing assessment, the SAIP reading and writing assessment was measured on five levels of performance. Level I represented very limited skills, and Level V represented the highest level of performance. The results: overall reading and writing skills of 13- and 16-year-old Manitoba students were on par with their counterparts across Canada in both the 1994 and 1998 assessments. For the English students, both 13- and 16-year-old Manitoba students showed higher levels of performance in writing than in reading. Français 13- and 16-year-old Manitoba students in both reading and writing performed at levels comparable to français students outside Quebec. In reading and writing, the percentages of 13-year-old Manitoba students who per-formed at Level II or above meet or exceed the expectations. The percentages of 16-year-old Manitoba students who performed at Level III or above are lower than expectations except for the writing component where the percentage of English students met the expectations. A comparison between 13-year-old and 16-year-old students results show that, as is reflected in the Canada overall results, 16-year-old Manitoba students performed better than the 13-year-old students. There is one exception with the 16-year-old Manitoba French students performing lower than 13-year-old students in writing for Level IV.

With respect to the future status, in 1999 the SAIP assessment will be implemented in science, and in the year 2001 the SAIP assess-ment will be administered in mathematics.

That is all I have to say about that.

Ms. Friesen: I think the minister was going to table that, and I wondered if the minister has read summaries and interpretations. I wondered if the minister could also table the actual tables which are usually included with SAIP, which indicate Levels I, II, III, and IV.

Mr. McCrae: We will return with the tables. I am not sure what the member said at first, though.

Ms. Friesen: What I intended was to ask the minister for the tables, because what he had read were summaries and interpretations of the tables, but there are, in addition, tables. Sometimes the summaries do not actually give you the full picture. They give you a quick glance of above and below, but they do not necessarily tell you what happens at each level.

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Mr. McCrae: Does the honourable member include in her request all the way back in '96, or just the most recent '98 ones, because it will take longer to get all of that?

Ms. Friesen: No, I am looking for comparisons and change over time, obviously, so that the '96 ones would be helpful. I recognize that would take a little longer.

Mr. McCrae: We will get it, but it will take a little longer.

Ms. Friesen: One final thing from last time was the Mennonite university, the issue that it is not listed in the Estimates book. Now, I do not know what the actual legal standing is of the Estimates book or whether there needed to be an addendum, an erratum, or whatever, but perhaps I could ask the minister: is that required? Does it need something more than the statement he made that it was simply an omission?

Mr. McCrae: I think the supplementary information that is provided is provided to assist honourable members in their deliberations over the Estimates. I do not think there is any legal requirement for it. We can either make an addendum or put in a letter to the honourable member the omission and deal with it that way.

I think, rather than republish or redo the whole thing, this document is really meant as an assist to the honourable member and all honourable members in their review of depart-mental Estimates.

Ms. Friesen: It is on the record in Hansard. I do not think it requires a letter. I just was concerned whether it required anything further than that.

I wanted to ask the minister about a policy. We are looking at general departmental policies. Are there any policies or regulations that the government has developed on international students? As the minister is aware, a number of school divisions now are recruiting international students in various types of programs, some of them language programs, some of them regular programs, some of them for short periods of time, some of them on the basis of exchange. There is a wide range of programs that are developing across Manitoba. Particularly for those that are longer term, not the short-term, exchange ones, I am wondering if the department is developing any regulations, any guidelines, any advice for school divisions that are entering into these kinds of negotiations.

Mr. McCrae: This question really takes in both parts of the department, the K to 12 part as well as the post-secondary part. We do have a staff person, Mr. Gordon McLeod, from Fort Garry. He is on secondment from the Fort Garry School Division. Mr. McLeod is working with the post-secondary sector as well as the school divisions.

At this point, there are no policies that have evolved from this approach but, as the world shrinks, as it were, Manitoba is very well placed to be of interest to students from around the world. So discussions take place with both sectors and Mr. McLeod respecting the marketing of Manitoba. With the Internet being available to people around the world, getting on-line is one of the things we need to do to make sure that the world knows about us. We have good schools in Manitoba; we have good curricula; we have excellent teachers in this province; we have a lot to offer. So Mr. McLeod has made it his work to work with both parts of the education system.

Ms. Friesen: Since it is both parts of the education system, I am assuming that this is an appropriate line to ask questions on that.

Mr. McCrae: I do not really rest on a lot of rules, and have not always done that anyway, and I do not intend to start insisting on it. If we are not able to deal with an issue or bring forward specific information on the spot, we will continue to undertake to do so at a subsequent time. I do not want to, in any way, limit the honourable member's approach to asking these questions by insisting that we have the right people here at any given time.

Ms. Friesen: He mentioned on-line, and I assume Manitoba Education then is developing a website that is available internationally, as, of course, many provinces and jurisdictions and individual institutions have done. Does the minister have any information on that here, and could he tell us where that is going? The reason I was asking for government policy and government guidelines, of course, is that obviously we are into a quite competitive situation. In general, Canada has fallen severely behind, certainly at the post-secondary level. It is not so much the fault of the provincial government, but there was a period of years there when the federal government let the ball drop, took away its educational counsellors from its embassies, and has only recently reinstated them. It is, unfortunately, reinstating them at a time when the Asian market is not what it was for educational institutions.

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So I think we are coming with disadvantages internationally. I think obviously Manitoba, within that, will have not only advantages but disadvantages in the sense of the lateness of this. It is something that I have raised in Estimates over a number of years. I was impressed 10 years ago by the rate of expansion of Australian universities, not just in Australia, but actually overseas campuses. In terms of using education as a knowledge industry, in fact, it does something which is of international interest and which has, of course, spillovers into many other areas of international economic exchange. It seemed to me that they moved very quickly. Canada was much slower; it then became even slower. Manitoba has a difficult situation even within Canada, and Canada itself, I think, has difficulties.

British Columbia, obviously, has much greater advantages in terms of climate, proximity, having been in the field much longer, both at the K to 12 area and at the post-secondary level. I do not know that much about what is happening in the Maritimes, but one would assume that there are some advantages there at the post-secondary level with the diversity of institutions, smaller institutions and again closer to an international market in some ways. I am thinking of the Caribbean in particular.

So I wonder if the minister can give me a sense of the place of Manitoba, what the impact has been of the federal government changes in international education, the actual uptake, re-uptake of activity at the federal level, and what direction he sees Manitoba going in terms of market.

Finally, to get back to where I started with guidelines for the school divisions is that I think there is always a danger in these situations of school divisions competing with each other and without, which, I think, does hinder some of the presentation, some of the position that Manitoba could take. So what is the minister thinking of in developing in that context?

Mr. McCrae: I know the challenge to which the honourable member refers. I do not know if relative to others we are in such bad shape in this area, but I think there are some natural advantages other jurisdictions enjoy that we do not. We just have to work harder. I think that, as the economy of Manitoba reaches out to the rest of the world, so too will our educational sector. I think that is going to be a by-product. It is not going to happen automatically, but it is going to happen if people roll up their sleeves and make it happen.

I know recently I had the pleasure of attending a dinner on a Sunday evening in Brandon put on by Brandon University and one of the major universities in Taiwan, a partnership agreement where they share professors and they exchange, shall we say, students, that sort of thing, at that kind of level all the way to the exchange of research programming and other opportunities that a global economy presents all of us with. It is simply a question of making sure we have dynamic people who believe that the changes that the world is undergoing represent opportunity. We need to continue as a province to be involved in establishing partnerships. We have to network not only here in Manitoba but well beyond. I note that in this year's budget there are dollars set aside for the strategic efforts to be undertaken by the universities and colleges. This is the right direction, but that sort of thinking needs to extend well beyond the Manitoba borders. So we have some reciprocal arrangements with other universities which are helpful to students.

I think the point the honourable member makes is a good one, because we do need to work harder at this just to try to catch up to the natural advantage that other jurisdictions might enjoy, those that are closer to, let us say, Asian markets, for example, or those that are more involved with the Asian market than we are. But we are getting more and more involved with our products and services. Those things can include the education sector.

So we by no means want to rest on any laurels because, sitting in the middle of this big country, Manitoba could possibly not be on everybody's destination list, but we have to make that happen, and there are certain economic advantages to our location. If we can tie those economic advantages to advantages related to our education system, then that is what we should be doing. So I agree with the concern the honourable member raises. I do not know if it is as bad as she has characterized it, but there is a challenge there.

Ms. Friesen: My question also dealt with guidelines and policies that might enable Manitoba institutions to co-operate with each other, both at the post-secondary and the K to 12 level. I wondered if the minister could address that part of the question.

Mr. McCrae: The key I think is perhaps for Manitoba to become more co-ordinated. I mentioned Mr. McLeod. That is part of his function, in fact a big part of his function, to get us all working as if we were one major player rather than half a dozen or more pieces of it, sometimes competing with each other, which is not always a good idea. The honourable member talked about competition even between school divisions. I agree it is not always a good idea, but it is not always a bad idea either. You have to pick and choose carefully and have some kind of system in place whereby you can make good decisions about efforts on the part of school divisions or the post-secondary sector that would provide appropriate guidance.

This is not a dog-eat-dog situation in terms of education. It should not be, because we are talking about education institutions, but we are in a competitive world. So I guess we have to be judged by directions we take and decisions we make as they are made, to some extent, but certainly there is nothing wrong with trying to get a co-ordinated system for working with the rest of the world. Manitoba does indeed have a good track record in a lot of these areas.

Ms. Friesen: Can the minister direct me to the department's website on this?

Mr. McCrae: It is not a specific website for this particular topic. What we have is a Manitoba Education website from which you can link to other websites of the various institutions and services. So it is not one website for this function and this function only. I guess the way the Internet works is there are various links that you can get to from one major Web page, and that would be the Manitoba Education one. I think the honourable member would know that one, but if not, we have it here. The honourable member would have that, so then it is the links that you come across, I guess, as you are working your way through that web page. You would have this one: edu.gov.mbca.

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, what I was interested in was whether Mr. McLeod was developing a website that was specifically aimed as a marketing tool at overseas students. The Manitoba site is, of course, a very general one, and the institutional sites are aimed at prospective students largely within Canada. Is there something else that is being proposed by Mr. McLeod? Where are his efforts being spent in the marketing sense?

Mr. McCrae: The answer to the specific point is no. Mr. McLeod's function is to work with all of the institutions and network with them towards developing a common marketing strategy so that we can maximize the oppor-tunities.

Ms. Friesen: At the post-secondary level–since the deputy minister is here–the government some years ago initiated a differential fee policy for post-secondary students. That had an initial impact and the loss of international students.

Does the minister have a report that would cover the years since then on the impact or the–what do I want? I want the changes in enroll-ment in international students since the imposition of that differential fee and recognizing–I understand, as I said earlier, that there were also federal difficulties–well, not difficulties, federal choices that were made in that period that reduced the numbers for everybody.

Mr. McCrae: It is not easy to agree that simply having a differential tuition fee policy would be the major or approximate reason for a change or a drop in enrollment of international students. We will get the information for the honourable member about enrollment of international students since the coming into effect of the differential fee policy. I think it could probably be argued that access to Manitoba institutions by international students, if you stripped away all the other things that got in the way of access–as the honourable member has acknowledged, there are other things and named one of them–at the end of the day I would think to an international student, a Manitoba institution would be a pretty attractive place from a tuition fee point of view. But if you look at where in the past have we got our students from, our international students, if a lot of them have come from the Asian community, well, you have to keep in mind what the honourable member said a little while ago, that the Asian economic downturn will have had some effect on students finding their way to foreign countries to get education. That would be one alone; I do not know, I suppose there must be others too. But I would not want to accept that tuition fee policy alone would be one of the main features. It would be one, I know that. I would be interested in knowing myself, if time should permit, how Manitoba's tuition fees stand up to other institutions across the country or in the United States, how Manitoba stands up in terms of competitive tuition fees for international students. That would be an interesting thing too. If that is available, I would not mind having that information, and if the honourable member was interested, I would share it with her.

Ms. Friesen: Yes, I would be interested in that. I am wondering too if the Council on Post-Secondary Education is tracking international students, in a sense, moving in both directions. I am hearing, and it is anecdotal, of an increasing number of students who are going to nearby American universities, I think in particular North Dakota, not necessarily places where we have tuition agreements with. Minnesota we do, and, yes, there has always been a very small trickle of students there. It has always puzzled me as to why there has not been much more of a two-way street there. Now I am hearing much more about people going to the smaller colleges in North Dakota. Part of it is particular programs obviously, and the speech therapy one is an important one, but I am wondering if the Council on Post-Secondary Education is able to track that in any way and whether it has taken that upon itself.

Mr. McCrae: It is very relevant, what is happening in terms of a region of a continent. Yes, it is relevant, what is happening in North Dakota or Minnesota or South Dakota or Montana. I am not just sure what the honourable member's point was, I am sorry.

Ms. Friesen: Well, while the deputy minister for post-secondary is here, I am trying to focus on some of those questions at a policy level rather than have him pop back and forth all the time, which does not seem very productive. So I was asking about the Council on Post-Secondary Education. I know there is a specific line for that and we will be coming to it, but I was interested in whether the council was tracking the inmigration, outmigration of students and particularly vis-a-vis the United States.

Mr. McCrae: On the condition that I under-stood the honourable member correctly, that what she is asking about is students from nearby states or provinces, I assume, yes, we have that kind of information. We were discussing whether she was talking about our students going outside. That is harder to track them obviously.

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Ms. Friesen: Yes, that was my point. I am assuming that you can find students who are here from elsewhere. What I am really interested in is whether the Council on Post-Secondary Education has undertaken a particular responsibility to keep track of this. Yes, it is much more difficult to get an account of people who are going out. Obviously, I think you can if people are working from the particular agreements with places like Minnesota where there is a dual agreement, and presumably that has to be registered somewhere. But there are also people–and again all I have is anecdotal information. I wondered if the council had another mechanism, had taken upon itself to find another mechanism of looking at students who were going particularly, for example–the example that is often given is North Dakota, and it is for speech and language therapy, a program that there is some concern that we do not have here. Are there enough students going there that we should be having something here? That is really what I am looking for. Why are students leaving here? What is it that cannot be met in Manitoba, and has the council taken upon itself that responsibility for tracking that so that we can begin to develop some policies as a province?

Mr. McCrae: That is something we can inquire of the council about. That is an excellent question. They should be able to provide us with some information, and depending on what it is, we might be able to explore the matter further.

Ms. Friesen: Then, while the deputy minister is still here, could I ask for an update on The Apprenticeship Act that was recently proclaimed and the steps that have been taken to implement that act in recent months?

Mr. McCrae: In addition to the budget that we have had for the Apprenticeship Program, this fiscal year $1.75 million is added to the budget for this important work for study and for operating costs. Sixteen staff members are being added this fiscal year, which is an increase of 50 percent. When we committed to doubling apprenticeship, there were 3,000 apprentices in the province. We are now at 3,600, as we head into this fiscal year, and we expect to be at 4,800 by the end of this fiscal year. That is a significant increase.

The proclamation of the act is to be followed by the appointment of an Apprenticeship and Trades Board, and that work is underway. We are, as we speak, making those appointments. They will be made known in pretty short order. I cannot do that today for the honourable member, but I can do that probably within a day or two.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister explain why there was the year's delay, as it seemed, in the proclamation of this act? I gather one of the reasons was to get the trade advisory councils into place. Have those been put into place? Can the minister tell us when the board will be established? I had assumed that the delay was because the board was part of that whole system, that the trade advisory councils and the board will be announced at the same time. Can the minister tell us when that will happen?

Mr. McCrae: I cannot really accept that there has been any undue delay. The only delay I can really talk about is the delay occasioned by myself in making sure that we got those appointments done, and that took a little time to get that part done. I cannot really point at any-thing or anybody else for any particular delay. The board, when it is appointed, which is imminent here, will go to work to structure and restructure trade advisory councils under the new act. There are 51 trades, and I do not know if they need that many advisory councils. I do not think they do, but that will be probably job No. 1 for the board once it is established or re-established. The proclamation happened just a few weeks ago, and I have been working away to get the board in place. As I say, the letters are going out to new board members, and it will be public knowledge within a day or two.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, so in the past year–the act was passed in June; it is now May–has there been no restructuring of any of the trade advisory councils? I understood that that was the first task because that was what it was going to deal with curriculum, it was what it was going to do with restructuring of apprenticeships with costs, et cetera, fees. Has that not happened? What has happened in the past year? That is another way of putting it.

Mr. McCrae: Actually, quite a bit has been achieved to move from 3,000 apprentices to 3,600 in a year. That is not insignificant; that is a–what?–20 percent increase in that year. The existing trade advisory councils have not just been waiting around to find out what the future of trade advisory councils is. They have been meeting and devolving the whole apprenticeship effort.

I do not think "delay" is the word here. Work has been ongoing. Significant numbers of apprentices have been achieved. There were seven new staff people appointed or hired to this project last year. As I mentioned, another 16 this year. I have been involved in trying to find out what we can do to make the public more aware of and appreciative of apprenticeship. People think of their future at a certain time in their lives, and they think of university education; they think of college education; they think of apprenticeship. More and more, we are seeing a change in people's perception of all of these types of opportunities.

I would think that at one time, if you were to categorize these in such a way, like most desirable, you might have seen university or professional postgraduate-type degree pro-fessions as the No. 1 on people's wish list, if they kept a wish list. Next, you might see under-graduate achievers, and then you might see diploma earners in our colleges. Then people did not even really acknowledge that there was much else to choose from.

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What we need to do is make people aware of the fact that apprenticeship is an extremely good option for thousands of Manitobans for the future. As we know, we want people to be ready to take on high skills occupations and pro-fessions for their working lives, and apprentice-ship is a very realistic option in the '90s. Things have become high tech in pretty well every kind of field you can imagine.

So I guess the image of apprenticeship is what I am getting at here. We want to enhance the image of apprenticeship training and work, because it can lead to a very bright future for many Manitobans. So I think that I am certainly not the only one who feels that way about this, and it is safe to say that the new board will have some transitional representation from the last board, but that board will go to work, and this is only one step in a number of steps that have been and continue to be taken as we move toward achieving that doubling of the number of apprentices in our province.

So I bristle a little bit at any suggestion that there have been long periods of time where not much has been going on, because the performance here suggests otherwise, and the economy says we cannot just be sitting around because there is too much opportunity out there for us to prepare for. So virtually thousands of Manitobans are going to be preparing in this way for a better future for themselves and for their families.

Ms. Friesen: The minister said that there are 600 additional apprentices this year. Could he provide me with a breakdown of the areas in which they are being apprenticed, or is there, for example, a breakdown of the 3,000 as well? So that would be two different ones.

Mr. McCrae: For instance, Mr. Chairman, at the end of 1997-98, there were 102 active apprentices involved in the aircraft maintenance engineer technician category. One year later, there were 132 at the end of 1998-1999. With boilermakers, 25 at the end of '99, compared to 18 at the end of '98. It goes on. I mean, surely, this is not going to happen everywhere, but the bricklayers, there were 26, now there are 39; cabinetmakers 40, now there are 52; carpenters 472, now there are 502; construction electricians 390, now there are 516. Cooks, well, I guess people are not eating quite as much, because the number of apprentices in that area declined from 64 down to 59. Drywall installer apprentices, they were the same number each year.

There is one additional electric motor winder apprentice from two up to three. There were four additional active farm equipment mechanic apprentices from '90 to '94. The number of active apprentices as glaziers remained the same at three, but hairstylists, a new category, moved from zero–obviously they were not a category before–to nine.

But as we go all the way through heavy duty mechanic, industrial electrician, industrial instrument mechanic, all of these are up. Industrial mechanic, up; industrial welder, up; interior systems mechanic, up; landscape technician, lather, even at five; machinists, up significantly from 91 to 151; motor vehicle body repairer, up. Oh, we are down with respect to motor vehicle mechanics, from 388 to 356. I do not know what all the reasons for that would be, but maybe people are buying, with the economy being what it is, newer cars that do not need as much repair, but that is just me guessing about what the reason might be.

The same with motor vehicle body repairers. There are two fewer apprentices in that area. Well, maybe that is because of MPIC's fantastic public education driver safety programs. There are not as many accidents happening. I guess we can guess at some of these. Other people do it; maybe I should too. Painters and decorators, there are more of them, 46 versus 38. The same number of parts persons. Plumbers, more of them; more power electricians; significantly more refrigeration/air conditioning mechanic, commercial and residential. One less roofer apprentice, down from three to two. There are more sheet metal workers. There are two fewer sprinkler and fire protection installers. There are six more steamfitter/pipefitter apprentices. There are nine more tool and die maker apprentices. Transport trailer mechanic, now that must be a new one, because they had none at the end of '97-98, but they had 31 at the end of '98-99.

This is a move in the right direction. This is a really big area of growth in Manitoba, transport truck mechanics. There are 213 at the end of '99 versus 158 at the end of '98. This is a major area of growth in our province, moving goods and materials around.

We have more building technician/carpenter apprentices. We have the same number of building technician electrician apprentices. We have one additional building technician plumber.

So, overall, active apprentices at the end of 1997-98 is 3,032 and at the end of 1998-99 is 3,550. So the expectation is for pretty significant growth in this activity for this fiscal year.

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Ms. Friesen: I wonder if the minister could table the material that he just presented, since he was not able to read all of the numbers into the records. Some were more; some were less; some were specific. Is it possible to table the whole group?

Mr. McCrae: I would be glad to table that for the honourable member. It is a very positive picture of what is happening out there.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us what the plan is for the coming year? The board will be established, I understand. Which curriculums are going to be dealt with over the coming year? What is the work plan?

Mr. McCrae: In addition to the three compulsory trades, there will be an additional eight this year, and that, of course, is subject to recommendation to the government. But that is the expectation, eight.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us which eight are going to be dealt with; that is, curriculums created for? I think we are talking about the same thing. But there are new apprenticeship designations, and there will be new curriculum for them. That is the eight the minister is referring to. There are 50-odd others that the minister talked about. Are there going to be any revisions to any of those?

Mr. McCrae: Going into the fiscal year, we are coming into it with 51 apprenticeships, and we do not expect that to increase in this coming year. But on an ongoing basis the trade advisory committees review the curricula and update them. I guess, then they make recommendations to the board, and that is how curriculum is updated.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell me which eight are going to be dealt with this year? He mentioned a little while ago that eight were going to be done. Those are the new ones.

Mr. McCrae: I think I may be going down the wrong road with the honourable member. There are three compulsory, and they are going to make eight more of them compulsory, for a total of 11. That is, I think, something I said earlier may have left the wrong impression.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, could the minister then tell us which eight are going to be compulsory?

Mr. McCrae: I cannot now, but I expect to once we go through the process. There is a regulatory review process that we need to go through first, and then, once that is done, I will be able to report it. By that time, our Estimates should be maybe over, maybe not, but if we could make a note, though, I would like, at that point, to be able to advise the honourable member so that we eventually have answered this question.

Ms. Friesen: So that by the end of the next year, Mr. Chairman, the minister, not by the time we end the Estimates, but by next year, the minister will have 11 compulsory trades that will have new curriculums, but we do not know which ones yet. Is that the case?

Mr. McCrae: The growth does not simply happen by adding new trades. It happens by making the curricula relevant to the require-ments out there and attracting more and more people to those apprenticeships, so that is how that system works.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, in the last two years what the government has done is to essentially divide, to put it in layman's terms, but to divide some apprenticeable trades into different skill sets with lower wages, in some cases, and with a more narrow range of skills. I am thinking particularly in the trucking industry. Can the minister tell us whether he has curriculums for those new apprenticeship trades?

Mr. McCrae: For example, Mr. Chairman, heavy duty mechanics have been redefined or categorized in three categories: truck mechanics, farm implement mechanics, and trailer mechanics. Now, one of the good reasons for getting these definitions right is that in these industries, especially the truck one, there is a Canadian and even an international dimension to it, so you want some compatibility across the country. Otherwise, you are going to have significant problems for people working in that industry. That is the purpose for having a redefinition of these things. Wage rates are nothing to do with us. That is set by the market.

An Honourable Member: Apprenticeship wages.

Mr. McCrae: Apprenticeship wages. You are right to this extent, but it is not this department. The Employment Standards branch of the Department of Labour has a role in that, so the member is right in that, just the wrong department.

Ms. Friesen: If the intent of these is to deal with international and national compatibility, is it the intent of the government to make these Red Seal national standards then? Is there any movement on the part of other provinces and this province to do that? I am, again, speaking in this case of the trucking industry.

Mr. McCrae: I think we want to have as many standards that are national in scope as possible. There is an internal agreement on trade in this country, and in keeping with the social agree-ment between the provinces, you want to do that. Especially with the way things are moving in our country and everywhere, we want people to be able to have some freedom of mobility not only to move from one place to the other but to move into Manitoba, too. So it is in our interests to be part of any agreement that sets national standards as much as possible.

Ms. Friesen: That is a very nicely put motherhood statement, but what is the intention of the government and what actions has the government taken, in the trucking industry specifically, to make these new classifications, to begin a process with other provinces to develop the national standards in this area?

Mr. McCrae: In the spirit of motherhood referred to by the honourable member, I would think that we would all hope that the national–there is a national council that is involved in this–that they would also be encouraging industries, governments and everybody to move in this direction. That is clearly in our interest as Manitobans, because so many of the big trucking companies are headquartered here, so much trucking activity, but I am sure that extends to other fields as well.

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Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell me which national council he is referring to, and could he tell me what steps his government and department have taken to approach that national council with proposals for national standards?

Mr. McCrae: For a number of years there has been the existence of the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship, and that council is made up of directors of apprenticeship from the various provinces. The way it works is that members of that council can bring forward trades to be candidates for the development of national standards. From that point, I guess, that council makes a decision on whether a certain trade will be the subject of that sort of treatment, and then standards are developed from that point forward. The three trades we mentioned–heavy-duty truck mechanics, farm equipment mechanics and trailer mechanics–have that national designation.

Ms. Friesen: Can I just clarify that national designation? Is the minister saying that each of those three is a Red Seal Program?

Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister table, not now but at a later date, the information that he has on the Red Seal designation of each of those trades? I mean, there is usually a pamphlet on it with a list of criteria and that sort of thing, public information.

Mr. McCrae: We will look at what we have and what we can obtain for the honourable member and make that available. It may be that we may have to put something together in order to satisfy this query, but we will see what we can do with what the honourable member has said and bring something back.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to move back to the K to 12 area, and I would not be going back to post-secondary today, if that is any help. Thank you.

We had talked about the agreement with Morris-MacDonald last time and the Anokiiwin one. What had stuck in my mind was the last paragraph of the government's press release, which says that provincial approval was needed to allow the project to proceed. I had perhaps wrongly inferred issues of regulation or of changes in policy. I wonder if the minister could just simply elaborate upon that and what was intended or meant and what has happened as a result of that.

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Mr. McCrae: I remember your telling me that before, too, and I am glad the honourable member raised this again because it was left rather unclear the other day. No regulation per se is required here. As the honourable member knows, the department funds school divisions on a per pupil basis, and these partners, both Anokiiwin as well as the school division involved, needed to know that, in light of the arrangement they arrived at, the province was not going to just pull the funding that it makes available for students who register in the school divisions. For that reason, the parties needed to have approval of the department, in other words, an undertaking by the department that these students would be counted as students for the purposes of the funding formula. In so doing, though, we want to be sure as a department that the school division is not involved in the charging of any tuition fees.

These are high school students, are they not? Grade 12, adults completing high school courses. We wanted to ensure that the teachers are properly certified. This is something the department does in all the other cases and that the curriculum that is being taught at Anokiiwin is the one that is approved by the department. Because these students are students technically of the Morris-MacDonald School Division under the funding formula, the department is entitled to be assured that the school division is carrying out its responsibilities under any agreement whereby they get money from the government.

So that is what that means on the last paragraph of the press release. It is not that there is a regulatory requirement, but it had been a few weeks since it had happened and I needed to refresh my recollection as to what those requirements were, but now I think I have set them out.

Ms. Friesen: I am mindful in this of an issue that happened before the minister became minister, but I am sure the deputy minister is aware of it. That is, the Transcona-Springfield School Division was offering training courses, not Grade 12 courses, but I believe there were some academic components of those courses. I wonder, and again I am looking from the general policy perspective here, what the difference is from the policy perspective of the department. Morris-MacDonald is going to assure the minister of the trained teachers and the completion of curriculum. Students will have a Morris-MacDonald and a Manitoba graduation or certification. How is it different from the kinds of programs which were and perhaps still are being offered by Transcona-Springfield School Division? Is it the same principles involved?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Carlyle advises that he is going to review that situation and prepare a note for me for tomorrow or for the next day on that. What is happening with Anokiiwin and Morris-MacDonald is not something that bestows on either of the parties any sort of preferential treatment that others in like circumstances could not have as well. It does lead to a high school graduation situation at Anokiiwin, but it needs to be clear that here we do not have too many programs whereby you have got a school division, which is essentially a nonprofit organization, doing business with a profit making private school. So it is a fairly unique arrangement. I think we need to keep our minds open, because Anokiiwin is going to be doing, from what I can tell, some very, very important work, especially with aboriginal students.

One young fellow said to me the day that we announced that program, he walked up to me, he was a student there, or a teacher. I cannot remember. I met teachers and students there. I think he was a student. He came to me and he said: What is happening here today is historic.

Sometimes you tend to lose sight of the importance of some of the things you are doing in this business. It sure is nice to have somebody around to remind you. This was a student who is going to achieve a much better life as a result of his Anokiiwin experience. He said that to me. It really made me think pretty hard that I am really involved in some things that are important.

I think it is a credit to organizations like Anokiiwin who, yes, have teachers to pay and profits to make. On the other hand, it is a partnership which I think is very defensible in a public sense because they are fulfilling a needed public objective, which is to see more and more aboriginal students find their way through high school graduation. Anokiiwin provides other training too and that provides a transition for them.

So I am pretty impressed with what is going on there at Anokiiwin and by the people involved there. I am also impressed with the school division for having the vision and the foresight to try to find ways to make these things work. Because of the nature of our economy and our social situation in our country and in our province, more and more of these types of arrangements simply have to be found because, if we simply rely on the old rule books and take too narrow an approach, we are going to fall behind, other jurisdictions are going to get ahead of us, and we are going to be left in their dust. It is not just aboriginal people in this particular case who would be the losers. We all would. But it was a very pleasant experience to meet and be in a classroom at Anokiiwin where some pretty wonderful things are happening.

But I will get further information for the honourable member about the Transcona-Springfield experience. I would just undertake to review the other situation and come forward with a more complete response to the honourable member. I think we need to have some kind of public objective in these things. So, therefore, that is why I say I do not see any preferential thing going on here. We will return with more to say about that.

Ms. Friesen: No, the issue is not a question of preferential policy. I am looking for an overall departmental policy on this. There is obviously a devolution of responsibility here. The only other one I am familiar with is the Transcona-Springfield one. It was not an issue of high school graduation. This one in that sense is much more clear-cut. It was an issue of using facilities that exist in the Transcona-Springfield School Division, well, a variety of facilities.

One can see it also in terms of the regional secondary schools, which will have the kinds of facilities for not necessarily high school graduation, but specific technical training programs that may not end up as high school graduation but may end up with a kind of certificate from somebody.

What I am looking for is a general policy on devolution. I wondered if the minister can table the agreement he has with the Morris-MacDonald School Division. Is there a written agreement? Is there anything more than there is in the press release? Or is there a policy statement on behalf of the government which says Morris-MacDonald is responsible for curriculum, certification of teachers, and that it leads to a high school certification, as the minister indicated in his press release?

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Mr. McCrae: As I said before, I think the policy is as the honourable member stated kind of set out in my previous answer about no tuition being charged by the division, and the teachers have to be certified, the curriculum has to be authorized, and on this off-site location there needs to be Morris-MacDonald supervision. There is no agreement with the government. The agreement is between the parties, but there is assent by the government under certain conditions as I have laid out here. I will review this to see if I can make that document, it is a letter, basically. If I can make that available to the honourable member, I will.

Ms. Friesen: Yes, pilot project. This is a pilot project, at least, that is how it is referred to in the minister's press release. He says it is a pilot project for the 1999-2000 school year. Could he tell me how many individuals will be involved in this? Does he have a sense of the enrollment yet?

Mr. McCrae: We will make a call to Anokiiwin about this to see what they expect. There is no precision on it at this point. We will not know until the end of September, but they may have some sense of how many students they might be able to have in place and look after for the school year sooner, and if that is the case, the honourable member might check with Anokiiwin herself. But as we are checking, I guess, we will find out as much as we can and share it with the honourable member. We think about as many as 50.

Ms. Friesen: The reason I ask the question was I wondered if, in fact, I know it says 1999-2000. I wondered if this was to be a continuous enrollment program as so many adult education programs are, where you work at your own pace and that essentially there is a continuous enrollment sometimes every month, or is this to be the more standard secondary school type of enrollment?

Mr. McCrae: It is our expectation and the understanding that this will operate on the basis of a school year.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about Sustainable Development Initiative of the department. We have two sort of topical areas in a way which report directly, I think, to the deputy minister. There are a number, but I am thinking of the Native Education branch and sustainable development, and the intent as I understood it was to have them both be applicable across the department. Is there a place in Estimates to ask specifically about the sustainable development program? We have a Native Education line, but we do not have a sustainable development line.

Mr. McCrae: We are able to discuss the sustainable development part of the unit of the department at any time. We are able to do it now. This is not the right line, but it does not matter to me. It is 16.1 apparently. If you want, I can speak for a moment about sustainable development, if it answers some of the questions the honourable member might have had. It might save her some time, if that is the object here. Okay, go ahead, go ahead, whatever way you want to do it.

Ms. Friesen: If the minister has the material now, then maybe I will just ask the questions now and the minister can deal with it.

I am interested in the public hearings that were held on developing educational material in sustainable development. I wondered if the minister could tell me what the public record is of those hearings. Is there a summary, is there a list of the presenters, has there been a next step from those public hearings? I gather that some of them were quite lively, I would say.

Mr. McCrae: Yes, there might be some difficulty here because the lead in this regard is really the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) who is the chair of the Manitoba Round Table on Sustainable Development. I am not really clear on what record was made of the hearings. I know there was some kind of record made of it. This was an initiative of the Round Table on Sustainable Development. No report has yet been made public. That probably will be refined and brought to a conclusion at the round table level. At that point, I would think this report would become a public document. That is my recollection and experience as a member of the round table.

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Ms. Friesen: Then, in the interim, I understand that there was a staffperson appointed to this last year, so there has been a year of preparation. Could the minister tell me what has been accomplished in the past year in this area of sustainable development activities in the department?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, sustainable development has been identified as one of the elements for integration into Manitoba curricula and related documents. Prior to education renewal, the department released Sustainable Development Grades 5 to 8: Caring for the World, 1993, and Sustainable Development Senior 1 to 4: Education for Sustainability, 1994, to support social studies and science curricula. A sustainable development project team has been established to address the integration of sustainable development. The project charter outlines the purpose and deliverables of the project. Those purpose and deliverables are as follows: to develop an action plan for training SPD and BEF staff responsible for the integration of sustainable development; also, design a process for integration of sustainable development concepts into SPD and BEF concepts, I should say documents; to develop a document to support integration of sustainable development into SPD and BEF documents similar to Technology As A Foundation Skill Area–A Journey Toward Information Technology Literacy. There is a project team and it comprises representatives from the School Programs Division, Program Development, Program Implementation, Assess-ment and Evaluation branches, the Bureau de l'J ducation française program development and implementation. There is a project leader, co-ordinator for sustainable development.

The timelines and release of curricula and related documents for educational renewal has affected the extent to which the sustainable development could be integrated. The results of the sustainable development project will assist department staff in more extensive integration of sustainable development concepts. The current perception of sustainable development by the field is mixed. In particular, the perception that sustainable development focuses on the economy at the expense of environmental and health considerations is pervasive. That is obviously a problem. The round table used to be the Round Table on Environment and the Economy and then it became the Round Table on Sustainable Development. There are people who, if they have not been involved in the discussions, tend to look at sustainable development as a winner-loser issue, that if there is any development at all then there is an unacceptable environmental impact, which is certainly not something that will work, if we want to have a growing economy. So it is important that people understand that sustainable development does not just mean stop everything, because I do not think that is what was ever envisioned by those pioneers of the concept and the reality of sustainable development.

So the overall work of the sustainable development co-ordinator is to work with the department on understanding the concepts of sustainable development. Our approaches to management in our department need to reflect the principles of sustainable development, and our curriculum documents need to integrate those principles. We need to integrate sustain-able development concepts into all of our operations. We need to act sustainably. For example, costly and environmentally affecting travel could perhaps be given over to teleconferences, which is just one example of the kind of thing that should be looked at.

If you have not been following sustainable development issues, you could have, in recent years, fallen behind in terms of the whole international discussion of it. So we need people like the people in our unit to be at work on that, reminding our assistant deputy ministers, reminding all levels, of the importance of this.

As for 1998-99, there have been some fairly significant accomplishments. A departmental sustainable development action plan has been developed. Branches have submitted strategic plans identifying how the principles and guidelines of sustainable development will be taken into consideration in all activities, programs, curricula, policies, initiatives and strategies. Progress will be reported on annually, and revised sustainable development strategies will be developed annually.

Information sessions related to sustainable development background legislation and the departmental sustainable development action plan have been carried out in every branch within the department. Information sessions related to sustainable development education have also been carried out at teacher education programs at the University of Manitoba. Professional development sessions for teachers related to sustainable development education have been conducted. Open public sessions and focus group testing related to the Round Table on Sustainable Development Education Strategy concept paper were conducted in eight regions throughout the province. An executive summary was prepared. Departmental staff were trained as recorders and facilitators for this strategy and other component sustainable development strategies. The work related to the integration of sustainable development concepts and principles into BEF and SPD curricula is continuing.

The Sustainable Development Initiative will co-ordinate the reporting of performance on all branch sustainable development strategies developed in 1998-99, and will co-ordinate the development of a revised departmental strategy for 1999-2000.

The unit will provide information sessions to all branches within Manitoba Education and Training. It will organize and conduct sustainable development workshops for university professors, K to S4 teachers and educators, as well as nonformal learning areas in order to increase public awareness, acceptance and commitment to the incorporation of sustainable development principles into every-day decision making.

Just as an aside, this is really the opportune time to be bringing these things into play because, in our schools, our children in recent years, I do not know how many when I say recent, but quite a few years now, have been fairly interested in issues related to the environment. Of course, then they grow up and get into the workplace, and they need to be concerned, in raising a family, about things like on the economic side, which, I am sure, must come sort of head on into some of the things they learned when they were in school about protecting the environment. So it is important that we bring these things into an appropriate balance.

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At a recent meeting of the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, CMEC, in my place the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) and the head of the unit and others brought very effectively to the attention of ministers of Education across the country the importance of bringing the concepts and the reality of sustainable development into play in our education system.

I know this is important to my colleague the Minister of Environment (Mrs. McIntosh) and was very much part of my work when I had the pleasure of serving in that capacity. The unit maintains a database related to sustainable development education resources. It is developing a website for sustainable develop-ment education at the provincial, national, and international levels. Its role is to co-ordinate sustainable development education, Train the Trainer workshops in Manitoba with learning for a sustainable future, to develop a progress report of best practices concerning educating for sustainability in Manitoba.

With respect to the Manitoba Round Table Sustainable Development Education Strategy, the Sustainable Development Initiative, the Department of Education and Training will be responsible to manage, on behalf of the Manitoba round table the process related to the development of the education strategy. The process involves the preparation of draft policies and actions to be taken to meet the intent of the policies; secondly, public consultation conducted by the Manitoba round table and Manitoba Education and Training; thirdly, to develop a what-you-told-us document, and that would be the results of the public consultation process; the development of a policy applications report; and the development of an implementation plan. Depending on the Manitoba round table education subcommittee, all or some of the process I had just referred to would be conducted.

The Sustainable Development Initiative will co-ordinate and develop a progress report on the state of educating for sustainability in Canada in terms of curriculum and guidelines, teacher training, professional development, policies, innovations, materials, resources, and education models. The Sustainable Development Initiative will represent the Department of Education and Training on external committees and working groups having to do with the implementation of The Sustainable Development Act. The Sustain-able Development Initiative will co-ordinate and manage approved projects assigned by the Sustainable Development Committee Of Cabinet to the Department of Education and Training, including authorization of expenditures related to approved projects and co-ordination of the evaluation and assessments of prospective projects.

So this is a very busy unit. It reflects one of the foundations of the present administration in the sense that we have taken a leadership role in Canada with respect to sustainable development. We are not just doing it in the Environment department, not just doing it in the resource department, you know, not just doing it in the Agriculture department.

But where could it be more important? You can put this question to the Minister of Environment: where could it be more important than in the Ministry of Education and Training? Because obviously we are playing a role in the development of young Manitoba minds. It is certainly not anything but a good thing to bring forward the concept and the reality of sustainable development in our society and in our world. If we do not do that we are going to have some serious problems, if not the next generation then the generation after that, and if not that generation then the one after that. In fact, I think there is probably a good body of scientific knowledge out there, a majority that suggests we have already gone over, we have gone too far. Everyone will know I am talking about global warming in that there are experts out there who say we may already be witnessing deleterious effects on our environment as a result of the overuse or the inappropriate use of fossil fuels.

So that is a very important matter I left on my desk as I left the Environment department. Now the honourable member for Assiniboia (Mrs. McIntosh) is really grappling with that one. I am sorry to say I did not finish that job before I left. It would have been nice if I could. But I cannot do it by myself, obviously, when we have got every country, over 130 countries in the world making commitments to do something about global warming. It is not something one lonely Environment minister from the province of Manitoba can fix all by him or herself. I know the honourable member for Assiniboia is going to make quite a significant difference in that pursuit on behalf of all Manitobans.

In wrapping up on this little response here, I have to make the observation that balanced budgets is one of the best forms of sustainable development. In fact, you know, the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), we have a lot of fun with him in the House, as the honourable member for Wolseley knows, but this gentleman gets away with an awful lot, and he should not. He is out there on budget day telling everybody that the budget 1999 is unsustainable. He said: but it does not matter, because there is going to be an election and they are going to elect a New Democratic govern-ment, so you do not have to have that budget because the New Democrats are going to bring in a budget of their own. That is what happened on the one hand. The next thing you know, the honourable member for Brandon East is on his feet supporting this budget that he just finished calling unsustainable.

Well, that is a whole other topic which we ought not to get off on, too far off the track with, but I do say that balanced budgets are part of a sustainable existence. If you do not balance budgets you can get off the track, as we did rather badly a decade or more ago. It is going to take four decades from then to get it fixed. So that is not sustainable.

I am very pleased to be part of a government that supports balanced budgets and proves that support by putting it in legislative form and not only does it in legislation but does it in fact each and every year. It is something to be proud of. That does not mean we have finished the job, because we might be sustainable budget-wise, but as long as we have a legacy of debt we have not achieved sustainability in economic terms.

You know, if you think about it, over the last 11 years, when you add up all of the money that we have sent to the bankers that we borrowed to pay for services we long since finished enjoying the benefit of, it boggles your mind. You are up over $6 billion, billion with a B, in terms of dollars spent for fat, rich, wealthy bankers somewhere, and we cannot spend it on education and we cannot spent it on health. That is troubling to me, but I am pleased nonetheless in spite of all of these problems that we have to be here this year and have a budget supported by the opposition, which tells me that we must be doing something right if even the opposition supports it.

I wish it could be more for things like education, but I think all ministers are like that. The Minister of Environment probably wishes there was more for the environment, the Minister of Rural Development probably wishes there was more for rural development but, because I wish that, I would not make that my reason for supporting or not supporting a budget. I mean, if you do not support a budget, then you do not vote for it; if you do, then you vote for it. I am just pleased that my colleagues all joined the Minister of Finance and supported that budget. If that was not good enough, the New Democrats also did that, which is a real measure of confidence in the government of Manitoba. I must say I appreciate it very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairperson: 16.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $663,800.

Ms. Friesen: Just for information, are we going until six or are we going until five? I think it is five, but I can continue if you like. I have one more question on this. I will leave the question with the minister. We will start with that next time.

The question I had to conclude the section dealing with sustainable development is the professional development days. The minister had said that there were Train the Trainer sessions and that professional development sessions had been conducted by this section of the department. I wondered if he had a list of where the professional development was done. I am interested particularly at which grade levels are taking the most interest in this area.

Mr. McCrae: We will bring back something for the honourable member on that tomorrow.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour. Committee rise.