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Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty-four Grade 5 élèves de l'École Belmont, sous la direction de Madame Brenda Globa. Cette institution est située dans la circonscription du député de St. Johns (M. Mackintosh).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, yesterday we recommended to the House that the binding arbitration option be considered and utilized and supported by the government and members opposite as a more positive alternative to deal with ambulance services here in the city of Winnipeg. Today Mr. Fotti in his presentation to the committee made the point to our committee when he asked what corner of the city will we leave without coverage if The Essential Services Act is passed rather than binding arbitration. Mr. Fotti further asked on behalf of the ambulance people to please send us back to the table and please send us back to the table with binding arbitration; please do not put our citizens at risk.

I would like to ask the minister today: given the articulate presentations and given the public interest is better served by binding arbitration, would the minister now consider binding arbitration as a way of protecting all the citizens of Winnipeg?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, we started the committee meetings this morning. We had some presentations on this very important issue. We are reconvening I believe at 2:30 this afternoon. I believe there are still two more presentations at least to be made to the committee, and obviously we are looking at this entire issue.

I think first of all we have to recognize today if something were to happen, there is no protection for the citizens of Winnipeg and Manitoba, and that is the issue that is first and foremost certainly in the minds of our govern-ment and I would hope everybody in this Legislature.

We had a request from the City of Winnipeg to include the ambulance services under the essential services legislation. That is the purpose of the bill amendments that were introduced today, with the whole objective of ensuring that the people of Winnipeg are not in any way put at risk in terms of the kinds of services that are very important to them from our ambulance services here in Manitoba.

So, as the member knows, we will be back at it starting at 2:30. We look forward to the rest of the presentations and then making some final decisions on this issue.

Mr. Doer: We will be moving amendments to deal with arbitration today in the committee in the public interest.

Madam Speaker, yesterday a press release issued by the minister stated and I quote: Stefanson noted that other City of Winnipeg essential services are covered by legislation to avoid service disruptions, including fire and police.

Madam Speaker, this Orwellian talk of essential services legislation and police and fire wrapped together is in my view very misleading. The minister knows that the essential services legislation of the government would leave half the services perhaps provided and half the services withdrawn. Police and fire legislation–and I will table copies of the act if the minister has not yet read them, but as a former deputy mayor he would know that it provides for binding arbitration. Why is the minister trying to mislead the public in the sense of letting people believe that the City of Winnipeg legislation is the essential services legislation when really it is binding arbitration, something we should bring in today?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member makes certain comments. I am more concerned about his actions in terms of trying to scare the public, particularly when it comes to health care services in the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba. He knows how the essential services legislation works, or I believe he does, or he should, if he has paid any attention to the legislation. He heard response to it today.

In terms of what will happen, the employer would designate a percentage of that service, whether it is 100 percent or 80 percent or whatever. He knows very clearly that he was not given a percentage by the representatives there from the City of Winnipeg today. He jumps up and he starts talking about a 50 percent service or less than 50 percent service, not based on any facts, not based on anything being provided to him by the experts in the field, either the ambulance service people themselves or the City of Winnipeg administrators, and I think that is irresponsible because he is trying to scare people when it comes to their health care services.

This is a very, very important issue. First and foremost in our minds is protecting that very important service to the city of Winnipeg people. That is why we introduced essential services legislation three years ago. We expanded it again in 1997 to include more employees. We are now looking at the entire issue in terms of the very important services of ambulance service here in the city of Winnipeg.

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Mr. Doer: Well, the minister should be concerned about information released in a press release under his name, information that basically, in my view, misleads the public on an important issue. Madam Speaker, the fire and police services have binding arbitration. They do not have the access to The Essential Services Act because we want and the people want a hundred percent of the services provided.

Janice Johnson today stated that 10 ambulances were stretched on a Friday night. The quality of care, she felt, would be compromised–I am listening to the people on the front lines–the quality of care would be compromised if we did not proceed with binding arbitration. It was partly due to the line-ups and the turn-around time in hospitals because of patients in hallways, partly due to this govern-ment's action.

So why not, in the public interest, if we get a hundred percent of the services provided to the people of Winnipeg with binding arbitration, let us go for the hundred percent solution, rather than something less. Let us go for binding arbitration today.

Mr. Stefanson: Well, first of all, I know that being a former head of the Manitoba Government Employees Union, the Leader of the Opposition knows that essential services legislation and collective bargaining are two separate and distinct issues, Madam Speaker. Again, we have essential services legislation covering our nurses, covering our doctors, and so on. They are not covered by binding arbitration. We have a case where, with the doctors in Manitoba, through mutual agreement we have gone to binding arbitration. With the nurses in the collective bargaining, as we all know we originally offered, we, the employers, offered binding arbitration. The Nurses' Union turned it down. Ultimately, through mediation, we reached an agreement with the nurses that was ratified by 75 percent.

We certainly want, first and foremost, both parties, the City of Winnipeg and the ambulance service attendants and their representatives, to reach an agreement at the table. They can do that in a number of ways. They have a conciliation officer with them now. They can also move on to mediation. They can agree to go to binding arbitration. Surely the Leader of the Opposition knows that that issue can and should be addressed through the collective bargaining system. What we are talking about is using the essential services legislation to be absolutely certain that the services are protected to the people of the city of Winnipeg.

I wonder what the Leader of the Opposition, a former head of MGEU, has against collective bargaining.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, this morning we heard paramedics describe how they save lives by bringing emergency services into our very living rooms during an emergency. The paramedics also told us that they have asked for arbitration in every contract for a number of years now. In fact, they wanted to do this to protect lives of the Winnipeg people.

I want to ask, since the paramedics are indicating that there will be a loss of ambulance services as a result of this essential services legislation, why this government did not consult with the paramedics before they tabled this legislation in this Chamber yesterday. Why did you not consult with the very people in the front lines who know about the delivery of service?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, let us remind members opposite the essential services legislation was introduced back in 1996, passed in November of that year. It was applicable to the provincial civil service. In 1997, again it was expanded at the request of employers and families in our personal care home environment.

Starting late last week, on I believe Thursday, May 13, we had an initial request from the City of Winnipeg about the very issue that he is talking about, being absolutely certain that this very important service to all people in Winnipeg continues to be provided. We received a subsequent follow-up request. Later, on May 18, it was tabled to members opposite. We then received a third letter today from the acting mayor of the City of Winnipeg, Ms. Lillian Thomas, provided to all members of this Assembly. The No. 1 objective is to protect those very important services, and certainly by being at committee today the opportunity is there to have the kind of discussion on all of the issues that we are talking about to be sure that when this is done, it is done properly. We are committed to protecting that service for the people of Winnipeg.

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Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, since the minister says he is interested in protecting public service, I am wondering if he can answer this question. Since we heard this morning that there was going to be a loss of ambulance services as a result of this essential services legislation, did this minister and this government know that that was going to be the effect of their bill that they brought before this Chamber, the loss of services as a result and that we need to have binding arbitration to protect those services?

Mr. Stefanson: Interesting question from the member for Transcona. They have never raised this issue of concern whatsoever in this House in any form or fashion, even though it has been certainly publicly known that discussions are ongoing, the ambulance service attendants have been without a contract for quite some period of time. They have never expressed any concern. I will have to look back and check the records and confirm whether or not in the first place they ever even supported essential services legislation.

It is this government that is responding to the key issue that everybody agrees, including the representation we had from ambulance attendants today, is to protect that essential service. Nobody wants to see that essential service withdrawn from the people of the city of Winnipeg. That is the whole objective of introducing the amendments to The Essential Services Act but still trying to respect the collective bargaining process, which again I think everybody in this House respects the collective bargaining process that ideally we want to see both parties reach an agreement through that very important process.

Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister can answer this question. Why, when Mr. Shoemaker said this morning that they would not be able to, under the Winnipeg ambulance service, continue 100 percent service to the people of Winnipeg, and since teachers, firefighters, police, doctors, paramedics in Brandon and Thompson fall under the binding arbitration process, is it not suitable for the paramedics that provide emergency services into the very living rooms of the people of Winnipeg? Why is this government not going in that direction?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, the member is wrong that basically doctors are not covered under binding arbitration through mutual agreement, as the Leader of the Opposition knows. Through mutual agreement with the doctors and with the employers, we are now in a binding arbitration process. There is nothing stopping both parties from committing to binding arbitration. There is nothing stopping both parties from committing to a mediation process. There are all kinds of options available to reach an agreement through various forms. Right now I understand that there is a conciliation officer I believe in place and that negotiations are in fact ongoing. We certainly respect that process.

I remind him of a letter that was received today from Lillian Thomas, acting mayor, and just to read a sentence, she goes on to say: The City of Winnipeg is prepared to continue discussions with the association in good faith in order to come to a mutually agreeable resolution to the contract issues. In the meantime, how-ever, it is imperative that the safety and security of our citizens not be put at risk during this process.

That certainly is what the amendments are meant to accomplish.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, after 11 years of government mismanagement of health care, after Connie Curran, after we raised the issue in March 1998, May 19, 1999, May 13, 1999, May 4, 1999, we find that they are cutting surgeries, the very surgeries that we require in Manitoba because of a critical nurses shortage. I do not know how many times we have asked this question in the Legislature: will the minister, in a point form, one, two and three, tell us exactly what the government is going to do–one, two and three–if anything, to ensure that the surgeries are not cut back and that we have the nurses in place to provide the services, because we asked you this over and over again and you did not give us–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Kildonan is responding to an article he read today, I am sure, in the Winnipeg Free Press. I want to point out to him that today at the Health Sciences Centre there are 500 more procedures this year alone than last year, a 2 percent increase in a number of procedures. If you look at cardiac surgery alone, just that very important service, it is up 50 percent at Health Sciences Centre, from 400 procedures to 600 procedures.

There is always a summer slowdown every year in Manitoba because, I think as everybody in this House knows, because we have seen it right in this House where people across the way want to take some time in the summertime to spend with their families and spend at our lakes to enjoy Manitoba. That also happens in the health care system where a good number of the employees want to take their holiday time. But I can point out to the member for Kildonan that, again, there are more procedures, more processes being done right across our entire system than there have at any other time.

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Mr. Chomiak: Does the minister expect us to tell those children whose surgeries will be cancelled and those patients who do not have ICU beds and those patients who cannot get into the surgery in the adult area and the surgeries that would be cancelled and perhaps have to go out of province, does he want us to tell them that they should be happy they can take their summer vacation because this government did not see fit when we raised the issue last year specifically to the Minister of Health to hire critical care nurses? He said: we are working on it; we have a plan and we are going to do something. Does he want to tell them they should take vacations at the lake instead–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Stefanson: That seems to be the pattern today again from members opposite of trying to scare Manitobans, and I say shame on them for that because we are doing more–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour-able Minister of Health, to complete his response.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member opposite chooses not to pay attention to what is happening to our system. There are more surgery procedures being done right across our system than the previous year, than before. Again, I pointed out to him some of the statistics at Health Sciences Centre. I will point out to him that Grace Hospital alone has a 40 percent increase in surgical volume this year alone. Similarly, Victoria Hospital again has a growth in terms of their surgical procedures. As a result of those shifts, better utilization of our community hospitals, we are doing more procedures, more surgery right across our entire system.

But again, in the summertime it is not uncommon for nurses, other health care professionals to want to take some of their holidays. As a result, there is a summer slow-down, but if you compare it year after year, if you take an example, for this summer alone, that will be significantly less than it has been in the last many years, so it all points to the fact that with the budget that we have, we are doing more surgeries, more procedures and better servicing the citizens of Manitoba.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I can hardly believe what the minister is regurgitating.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour-able member for Kildonan was recognized to pose his final question.

Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My final supplementary to the Minister of Health: will the Minister of Health not recognize that the government who was warned about the critical nurses shortage and the lack of surgery slates not just several weeks ago when we raised it but by the doctor who attended the opening and asked the minister to do something about it, and by us a year ago when the former Minister of Health said they had a plan to deal with it, does he not recognize that this crucial problem is going to affect the women, children, the men of Manitoba, and children in particular in terms of surgery because this government has not seen fit to provide the service, and the hospital has been forced to pare back surgeries? If the minister will not recognize that this is a major problem, then why do they not just call the election and have a new administration do the proper job?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would appreciate the co-operation of all honourable members. A very serious question was asked, and I am sure all honourable members would like to hear the response.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I like to think that normally the member for Kildonan does a little more research when he comes asking questions in this House. First of all, no emergency surgeries are in any way being cancelled, no urgent surgeries are in any way being cancelled. What we are talking about are some elective procedures that are being deferred, not cancelled as the member tries to talk about, and the maximum number through the summer months that we are talking about is a maximum of about 50 patients across the entire system.

I remind him of the significant growth in terms of the number of procedures being provided right across the system, 2 percent increase overall. I have already outlined for him more procedures at HSC. I am assuming that is one of the reasons that he and his colleague supported the 1999 budget that we brought down that includes $194 million more for health care or a 10 percent increase, so that we can continue to provide the kinds of dollars required to continue to maintain and expand the overall services right across the system, which is exactly what is happening. I encourage him to just do a little bit of research.

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Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, according to the chairman of the Brandon Regional Health Authority, the board is now launching a fundraising campaign to raise $1 million for new medical equipment because of inadequate and insufficient funding by the government. There were many years, the chairman points out, that there were no dollars for medical equipment and some other years where there was just totally inadequate small amounts. As a result, the Brandon general hospital has been seriously handicapped and cannot provide the quality care that it wishes to do so because of this outdated and inadequate equipment.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member have a question?

Mr. L. Evans: My question to the minister is–and I hope he does not talk about construction, because we are talking about medical equipment –why does the regional health authority have to go this very day cap in hand to the community begging for money, asking for donations, when this government has the clear responsibility to provide adequate funding for badly needed medical equipment?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, this budget, that the member for Brandon East has just supported wholeheartedly, includes $27.5 million for equipment right across the province and includes $8.5 million being allocated to our regional health authorities to use as they see fit. It includes another $19 million for specialized equipment on a priority basis across the province of Manitoba.

I remind him that I have had an opportunity to meet with the representatives at the Brandon Regional Health Centre, and they are very pleased with the $65-million commitment for a number of capital projects that will continue to improve the facilities and the equipment at the Brandon Regional Health Centre, continue to provide quality care not only to the people of Brandon but to that entire region of our province which is very important to all of us.

Mr. L. Evans: The minister talks about construction dollars–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour-able member for Brandon East was recognized for a supplementary question.

Mr. L. Evans: Is the minister aware that the Brandon general hospital right now needs–

An Honourable Member: Brandon Regional Health Centre, Len.

Mr. L. Evans: The regional health centre–the Brandon general hospital has been referred to by the Chair as the Brandon general hospital as well–needs $1.6–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members this is not a time for debate. This is Question Period. Would the honourable member please pose his question now.

Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) talks of the name of the regional health centre–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, I have a question.

Madam Speaker: Would the honourable member please pose his question now.

Mr. L. Evans: Is the minister aware that the Brandon general hospital needs $1.6 million alone to buy two new gamma cameras for use in nuclear medicine to provide better diagnosis and reduce a four-month waiting list resulting from old equipment which is so slow and does not provide adequate images?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as I have already indicated, on the capital side we have made a number of commitments to Brandon Regional Health Centre, some $65 million. We have also made significant equipment commitments in terms of issues like bone density and so on. As I have indicated to the member for Brandon East, in the budget that he supported just recently, it includes $19 million for specialized equipment based on a priority need across Manitoba. I am sure that the Brandon Regional Health Centre will receive some support from those allocations as well. So, on a number of fronts, we continue to put in place the dollars that are required to provide the facility, the equipment and the other financial support to maintain a quality facility and quality services at the Brandon Regional Health Centre.

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Mr. L. Evans: My question to the minister regarding medical equipment: he looks at the budget, he is giving them peanuts for medical equipment–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, will this minister admit in this very year the government continues to shortchange Brandon general hospital in terms of medical equipment when it does not even have money to buy worn-out bed mattresses or replace 20-year-old and worn-out blood pressure machines which should have been updated years ago?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I can assure the member for Brandon East that the situation in Brandon is an awful lot better today than it was as a result of some of their actions, and I will remind him–since the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) utilized the Free Press, I will quote from the Free Press–on December 24 of 1983, where it says: More than 1,000 people are on the waiting list for surgery at Brandon General Hospital and some are going to the United States rather than waiting more than six months.

That is not the case today because we committed the money to the equipment, to the facility and the–

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

I think, Madam Speaker, we have clear evidence of another minister living in the '80s and practising for opposition. Yesterday it was the Premier (Mr. Filmon), today it is the Minister of Health. We are in the 1990s, and in the new century we want answers about health care in Brandon today, not the trip down memory lane of this tired old government across the way.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour-able government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, every time the New Democrats are confronted with the images of their time in government, they run back to say: oh, we cannot look at that; no one should remember us in government. That is what they do. They run to hide and go in some sort of bunker about their past.

Clearly, there is no point of order here.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour-able member for Kildonan, on the same point of order.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I was prompted to rise because of the comments of the former Minister of Health and the government House leader with respect to the point of order.

I would just like to add in this regard, if the government wants to talk about the 1980s, perhaps we should start talking about the 1990s–Connie Curran, frozen food, SmartHealth. They should deal with the issues today, instead of trying to look back in the '80s. Instead of things like 1980s edition, talk with the 1990s and clean up some of the messes they have created.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members, when speaking to a point of order–and I raised this concern two or three days ago–they should speak directly to the potential rule that has been violated and not debate or rise to dispute what has been put on the record previously. A point of order is a very serious matter.

On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would agree he had a point of order. Ministers, when giving responses, should respond to the question asked.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, as a follow-up to yesterday's question, and again to the Minister of Industry and Trade, the government has given out $1.6 million of a $2-million loan, yet it is not prepared to be able to tell Manitobans where those tax dollars are in fact going. I ask the minister pointblank: can he indicate to this Chamber today, has he completed the negotiations in which already $1.6 million has been spent?

Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, as I replied yesterday to the honourable member for Inkster, when we enter into negotiations with companies, there are certainly some considera-tions that we like to put into the agreement. There are certainly some considerations that they like to put in. Some of the things that we talk often about when we are dealing with these companies is that they have employees that they have to inform. They may have other operations throughout the country that they are consolidating, and there are sensitive issues that are not necessarily deemed important to make public until the agreement is finalized.

As I advised the member in Estimates and again yesterday in this House, as soon as we reach agreement with the company we will make that available.

Mr. Lamoureux: My supplementary question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Stefanson), and that is: is it now government policy that it is okay to issue out $1.6 million of a $2-million loan without actually having an agreement in place?

Mr. Tweed: Again, I will just advise the member again and again that the fact is that when we have completed negotiations in regard to the announcement of this program or package to the corporation that we are dealing with, I would be happy to make it available to the member.

Mr. Lamoureux: We appeal to the Deputy Premier in asking a question in terms of govern-ment policy, and that is: is it this government's policy that money be issued out before any sort of agreement is actually in place? Is that now how we have a government, Madam Speaker, prior to actually having an agreement we are flowing the money?

Mr. Tweed: If the member will refer back to the Estimates process, when we presented the list, which I believe the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) asked for, we noted at that particular time that there were some in negotiations, there were some that had completed negotiations. The financial negoti-ations have been completed in this particular deal. The timing and the items that surround the deal on the announcement are not completed. When they are, as I said before, as I said in Estimates, I would be more than happy to share it with the member.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, I would like to respond to two questions posed by the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) on April 14, 1999, relating to the sale of Centra Gas to Manitoba Hydro.

The first letter I would like to table is dated April 16, 1999, the second one dated May 17, 1999, both from Bob Brennan, president of Manitoba Hydro, the first one to myself, the second one to Mr. Forrest, the chair of the Public Utilities Board.

The first question which was unanswered related to who was acting as lawyers for Manitoba Hydro in relation to requests to the Public Utilities Board about the nature of the hearing process. The second one relates to the nature of the hearing process that Manitoba Hydro was seeking.

The first letter indicates that procedurally the application for approval will be made by West Coast Energy, with supporting evidence being provided by Manitoba Hydro. The nature of the approval process to be employed will be determined by the Public Utilities Board, but Manitoba Hydro has not taken the position and is not advocating that the board's activities should be conducted in camera, and Aikins MacAulay was not acting for Manitoba Hydro in the letter sent by Mr. Foran.

Secondly, in the second letter, Hydro assures the board that Manitoba Hydro will fully co-operate in whatever process the board chooses as appropriate to provide for an effective review of the relevant issues. He says: I do however suggest the review should be as open as possible so that all interested parties have an opportunity to express their views on this important trans-action for the board's consideration, and closes by saying: during your review and deliberations, Manitoba Hydro is at your disposal to provide whatever assistance you may require.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Rural municipalities in the southwest corner of the province continue to be faced with high water levels that are threatening the livelihood of area farmers. It has been reported that farmers in some areas are desperate to get water off their land and are taking their own measures to do so. This is having repercussions on producers downstream.

Can the minister indicate what measures this government is taking to co-ordinate drainage in the southwest corner so that R.M.s are not working against each other in coping with high water levels?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Very much as the member has just described, it is because we are in emergency and in some cases near disaster situations on some of the adjacent farmland, there is tremendous pressure being put on municipal officials. That in turn leads to disagreement and conflict between municipalities if the water should happen to be crossing municipal boundaries. We continue to be available and will add whatever resources are necessary to work with the municipalities to deal with this issue because while there are some issues around regular drainage that occurs, this is significantly com-pounded at a time like this. We have offered our services and continue to do so to co-operate with the municipalities.

Mr. Struthers: This question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the minister indicate what assurances he is providing to farmers in the southwest region who are having to pay for feed for livestock as grazing land is under water and who are increasingly concerned that they will not get a crop in before the June deadline?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I believe I answered that question earlier on, but I am pleased to repeat that certainly I am very much aware of the concerns that farmers have in the southwestern part of the province. Not only in the south-western part of the province, I remind honourable members the Red River is acting up, and a considerable amount of land is being troubled with high waters in that area as well.

I am sending the chairman of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation to Melita on Friday, along with a number of officials. We are coming together there at the invitation of the regional KAP, Keystone Agricultural Producers organization.

An Honourable Member: Souris.

Mr. Enns: Into Souris, pardon me, I am reminded by my good friend from Arthur-Virden. That will fully explain the programs, listen to the complaints. Certainly we will listen carefully to how we can adjust the program to take in the unbelievably wet circumstances that that area faces.

I am also happy to report to the House that I will be contacting my federal colleague, Minister Lyle Vanclief, the federal Minister of Agriculture, and alerting him to the situation that we are experiencing in Manitoba.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, last week when Minister Collenette announced that Mr. Kruger was appointed to implement the Estey report, he was doing this despite the fact that the majority of farm groups are concerned about many of the recommen-dations. Mr. Kruger plans to set up a 12- to 15-person steering committee and three or four technical groups who will work out the implementation of the report. However, the committee cannot debate the merits of the recommendations; they can only look for ways to implement.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) how he expects these groups to work four to five days a week between May 31 and July 31 and on again in August and September, when he knows that this is a very busy time of the year for farming communities, and what steps he is going to take to ensure that this process is not pushed through and farmers' input will be heard.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, as the lead minister on the Estey issue, I can tell the member that the concern she expressed about the availability of farmer representatives was one that was shared by many provincial ministers, including myself and the minister from Saskatchewan. The process that has been established is not a provincial process; it is a federal government process established by Mr. Collenette. It is being carried out on the time frame that he, in fact, has set forward, which is if there are going to be amendments required to federal legislation, that they be ready by the fall so they can be contemplated by Parliament the following year.

Madam Speaker, this has posed some difficulty to farm organizations, and that was one of the discussions I had with Mr. Kruger when he visited with me last week here in Winnipeg. He is looking for some innovative ways to ensure that farmers are going to be able to be fully participating in those committees, which is essential, we believe, to the success of the process.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.