Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would like to seek approval of the House to have the Department of Housing for the remainder of the day be able to begin their Estimates in the Chamber rather than the committee room as indicated on the sequence of Estimates.

I would also ask if there is leave of the House to allow the Standing Committee on Law Amendments to sit beyond the hour of five o'clock to no later than 6 p.m. should it be required to complete their business today.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to move the section of Department of Housing into the Chamber to continue now till private members' hour? [agreed]

Is there unanimous consent of the House to have the Standing Committee on Law Amendments continue past five but no later than 6 p.m. if the business has not been completed. [agreed]

Mr. Praznik: I would ask, Madam Speaker, that we continue to resolve ourselves into the Committee of Supply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty.

Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Housing. Does the honourable Minister of Housing have an opening statement?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Yes, I do, Mr. Chairperson.

I am pleased to present the 1999-2000 spending Estimates for Manitoba Housing. The Department of Housing is committed to ensuring that Manitobans in need have access to suitable and adequate housing at affordable rates; maintaining and improving the quality of government-subsidized housing assets and programs as an integral part of our service to Manitobans; promoting the development of suitable housing and the maintenance and improvement of existing housing stock; providing relevant housing programs and services to Manitobans in an efficient and effective cost-saving manner.

The department's current program activities can be divided into various areas of responsibility: operating the direct-managed publicly subsidized housing portfolio for elderly, family and special needs households with low or limited incomes; administering the operating and the property management agreements for the Department of Housing portfolio, which includes the sponsor-managed private, nonprofit, co-operative and rural and native housing programs; ensuring access to emergency home repair for low income homeowners.

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In 1998, the Department of Housing assumed additional responsibilities with respect of government-subsidized housing programs when the province of Manitoba signed a new housing agreement with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or CMHC. With the exception of on-reserve housing and two nonprofit projects operated by First Nation organizations, this agreement transferred administrative responsibility for all subsidized housing in Manitoba from the federal government to the province. CMHC will continue to provide annual lump-sum payments to the province which are equivalent to the federal subsidy responsibilities for both the transferred federal housing portfolio and the provincial housing programs operating under cost-sharing agreements with the federal government which have been capped at the 1995-96 level by the federal government.

The funding commitments provided under operating agreements extend over a period of some 40 years and expire on a staggered basis during the first half of the next century. The new agreement has not altered that arrangement. Subsidies were intended to offset the cost of financing housing projects. The programs intended that once the mortgages were paid and financing costs disappeared, the subsidies would no longer be needed.

The new agreement allows the province to work with the project management groups towards achieving the goal of self-sufficiency. If the projects are well managed and the replacement reserves are fully funded, no subsidies should be needed to maintain their operation as low income housing providers once their mortgages are paid. At the same time, this new housing agreement has fundamentally changed the policy environment for housing assistance programs in Manitoba.

In addition to effectively doubling the size of the housing portfolio under the provincial administration, the agreement offers Manitoba considerable flexibility to reformulate programs and develop new methods to provide housing assistance. This provides the province with the opportunity to maximize the use of available funds to meet the housing needs of Manitobans as effectively and efficiently as possible.

Given the new challenges and the opportunities offered by this agreement, Manitoba Housing is in the process of developing a long-term strategy for providing adequate and affordable housing to Manitobans. The strategy will include an assessment of the need for housing assistance both now and in the future and it will identify effective ways for the province to meet that need.

In the coming year we anticipate major changes in our operation and in our approach to the management of our Housing portfolio. Through the development of a long-term strategy for Housing the department is planning for a period of change and opportunity that is unprecedented in comparison to its recent history.

We are looking forward to the challenges that our new environment presents to the Department of Housing. We intend to continue to evolve into an organization capable of delivering housing programs and assistance to Manitobans in the most efficient and effective means possible.

Mr. Chairperson, this concludes my opening remarks, I look forward to discussion on the 1999-2000 Estimates for Housing. Thank you.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the minister could table a copy of his introductory remarks so I can pass it on to our critic.

Mr. Reimer: Certainly.

Mr. Martindale: I have questions for the minister on Flora Place public housing, which is in the Burrows constituency.

Mr. Chairperson: I apologize. I just wanted to thank the minister for his opening statement and offer the same opportunity to the opposition critic, the honourable member for Burrows, for an opening statement.

Mr. Martindale: Since I am filling in for our critic, I wonder if, by leave of the committee, our critic could make an opening statement when these Estimates resume tomorrow.

Mr. Chairperson: Is this agreed? [agreed] I would remind members of the committee that debate on the Minister's Salary Item 1.(a) is deferred until all other items in the Estimates of this department are passed.

At this time we would invite the minister's staff to take their places in the Chamber. At this time we would give the honourable minister the opportunity to introduce his staff present.

Mr. Reimer: With me here at the table is Linda McFadyen, who is my senior policy analyst; Mr. Henry Bos, who is my senior financial analyst; and Mr. Ron Fallis, who is the fellow who runs things at Manitoba Housing.

Mr. Chairperson: The item before the committee is 30.1. Housing Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $391,100.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I think the minister is aware that although I am going to stay on this line, I will not actually be asking any questions about it. Rather, I have actually given the minister notice with some questions, mostly about public housing.

Beginning with Flora Place in the Burrows constituency, I would like to ask the minister if he can reaffirm that the existing tenants will be allowed to stay on in Flora Place or Flora Place South somewhere.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, in working with the member for Burrows, I think that he and I both share the same common aspirations and that is in trying work in the best manner we can with the residents of Flora Place. Flora Place is truly a unique area with its make-up and its composition. We have had some meetings there. I have had meetings with the tenants, and I know that the member for Burrows has also had meetings with the tenants.

It is our intention through Manitoba Housing that we have no intention of moving the people who are in there. If the people who are in those units right now intend on staying, we will honour their wishes to stay in that area called Flora Place. It is not our intent to be moving the people out.

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Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, will some of the tenants have to move when homes are repaired or not?

Mr. Reimer: I think, as the member knows, the buildings that we are talking about or the homes that we are talking about are quite old. These were homes that were built in the 1940s after the Second World War. They were meant to be temporary shelter for returning veterans. Originally there was just over a hundred units in there. They have slowly come to a point where some of them are very, very–well, in poor shape, in bad shape some of them, just because of the fact of the aging of them and the construction materials and the ability of them to withstand the test of time. So they have undergone a metamorphosis, in a sense, of going from fairly decent housing to a time where right now they need a fair amount of repair.

What we have suggested to the tenants there is–and we have done a bit of an audit, I guess it is, of all the units in there as to the livability of the units. I believe that the City of Winnipeg has even done an inspection on them. I have not seen the final report as to their recommendations as to what they consider is livable, but our intent is to try to work with the tenants in Flora Place. If homes are livable and reparable to an extent where they still apply without harm or danger to the tenants, we will try to accommodate them in any way we can.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, how many homes will be repaired or are reparable?

Mr. Reimer: I am informed that we do not have the final report on it yet as to how many.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, when the final report is out, would the minister be able to give me a copy of it?

Mr. Reimer: Yes.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, are there occupied homes that cannot be repaired?

Mr. Reimer: Again, we have not had a final report as to what has been recommended. But there again, I think as I have done in the past I would share this information with the member for Burrows as it becomes available.

Mr. Martindale: I have another question that probably falls into the same category then and that is how much money will be spent on minor repairs or homes requiring minor repairs, and how much money will be spent on homes requiring major repairs? Either what is the total or what is the amount per house?

Mr. Reimer: I guess what would preclude the numbers would be a final knowledge of exactly what is reparable and to what extent it is reparable. That is when dollar figures could be assigned to it, but at this time we have not had a final number yet.

Mr. Martindale: How long will these repairs extend the useful life of these homes approximately?

Mr. Reimer: Here again I guess it would depend on the amount of repairs that have to go in there to keep them livable. I think that what we would try to do is, if they are reparable, we would try to make them up to a position where the tenant or the person living in it, it would not be disruptive to that person. We would try to accommodate them to stay there as long as they feel.

I think I shared one of the concerns that we did have in the original construction of the homes that I think I pointed out to the member, that asbestos has been used in some of those homes in the flooring and in the siding. I guess there is a bit of a concern that once there is a disturbance of that type of material then a whole new health hazard comes into play. It is not trying to shirk our responsibility. I guess if the home is livable under the present conditions, disturbing it may mean that it means that we have to literally move that person because of the health concerns or something like that. So those are some of the things that we have to take into consideration in looking at how many repairs and what type of repairs and what type of structural changes may have to come into being.

Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how the repairs will affect the proposed plan to move people to two clusters, one at the west end and one at the east end of Flora Place? I think this plan is something that the minister has agreed to. Maybe he would clarify that, as well.

Mr. Reimer: It is still our aim to work towards that, to try to accommodate them, as the member mentioned, into clusters. Here again, looking at the liveability and the homes that are available is going to determine exactly where these people would go. But our intent is if the people do want to cluster, we will try to accommodate them in that type of arrangement too.

Mr. Martindale: Does the minister still support the idea of Habitat for Humanity building on Flora Place?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, we certainly do. I think there is an opportunity there if Habitat for Humanity was wanting to show an interest or a willingness to be involved with the redevelopment of that portion of Flora Place or along Flora Place. We would certainly try to accommodate them in any way we can for making it available for them.

I understand that their biggest concern is the supply of the infrastructure, and here is where the City of Winnipeg has to come to the table with some major infrastructure supply of sewer and water from what I understand.

I understand the original sewer and water that is in that area has been quite severely damaged over the years. There is an uncertainty as to whether it is still properly functioning and Habitat has indicated, from what I have been told, that their biggest concern is the infrastructure. If there is a willingness by the city to look at possibly extending their infrastructure program down the street in some way or reconfiguring the street, there has been various suggestions made of trenchings possibly down the middle and using the back lanes as the entrance way. There is talk along that, so I think those are some of the things that we are willing to work with and try to accommodate in that particular area. Here, again, the city has to be part of that decision making.

Mr. Martindale: Is it the minister's view that the City of Winnipeg should pay for infra-structure improvements before Habitat begins construction since this would be the normal course of events for the city to pay for infra-structure?

Mr. Reimer: Yes. I believe that the city, if they are looking to redevelop that program and if they are willing to also court Habitat for Humanity to move in there, I think that is one of the things that has to be looked at very, very seriously, for the city to be, like I say, at the table and supply that type of infrastructure in that particular area.

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Mr. Martindale: I have a couple more questions which I did not give advance notice for, but I am sure the minister can handle. As the minister knows, as recently as February, the residents of Flora Place were up in arms because they found out about a demolition order that the city was apparently proceeding with. They were prepared to stand in front of the bulldozers, practise civil disobedience or do whatever it took to stop the demolition, which was a good strategy and one that I agreed with, because it was the only leverage that they had in order to get the government to agree to a future plan. They wanted a future plan in place before any demolitions took place.

Now, subsequently, we have heard concerns and I heard these concerns as recently as last week about the danger of fires in vacant homes. Apparently, there was a recent attempt to set one vacant home on fire. I have not had a chance to talk to the tenants association or to the CIDA worker or anyone about this, so I am thinking out loud here and not necessarily committed to this idea, but I think it should be discussed because if we do not and there is a fire and the property is damaged or anything untoward happens, the community is probably going to be up in arms again looking to blame somebody, and they probably will blame Manitoba Housing.

I am wondering if the minister is willing to discuss with the tenants association the possibility only with their agreement that houses that are boarded up and vacant and unreparable may be torn down if the tenants association agreed to that, so that the possibility of fire is reduced. These tiny houses are fairly close together. One of their concerns is that a house that is empty might be next door to a house that is occupied and that the fire may spread. My guess is that these houses are probably 99 percent wood and very dry. If they go up, they are going to go up fast. I am wondering if the minister would entertain this idea or what he thinks of it.

Mr. Reimer: I think that we are willing to work with the tenants association there quite openly. If a meeting can be arranged and they come up with suggestions and we can work in co-operation with our Housing department with them in identifying, by themselves, with us, as to units that they feel are inappropriate, that we should have torn down or removed, we certainly would be willing to do that.

I think we share the same concerns regarding safety and security in that area. We have increased our security patrol in that area to try to have more of a presence in that particular area, and hopefully maybe, if anything, this is a meeting that should be sooner than later, you know, with the tenants association. Maybe I will look to the member if he feels that he wants to take the lead on arranging that, and I will work it in my schedule and we can meet with them. We can certainly work towards trying to look at some of the homes that they feel should be out of there.

Mr. Martindale: What I will do is, I will provide the tenants association with Hansard tomorrow, or as soon as it is available, and let them follow up as they feel appropriate.

Going back to the infrastructure and the Habitat for Humanity idea, I would like to congratulate whoever it was that proposed this innovative idea of perhaps not rebuilding the street but only having the services run down the centre of the former street and using back lanes for vehicles. This would be similar to Wildwood Park and other areas of Winnipeg. It is already a parklike setting. It would certainly add to the parklike setting, and presumably it would greatly reduce the cost of rebuilding the infrastructure. If you do not rebuild the street or the curb and you only have one sidewalk down the middle instead of two, then presumably you are only looking at the cost of the water and sewer. It might be much cheaper to redevelop and may be able to develop bigger lots, as well. So I am happy to hear that idea from the minister.

I would like to move on and ask the minister some questions about tenant associations in public housing, particularly beginning with some general questions about policies, the first being: are there guidelines for how tenants associations should be, or must be, set up and run and if so, I wonder if I could have a copy of those guide-lines?

Mr. Reimer: Maybe just to give a few comments in regard to tenants association. I am a very strong advocate for tenants associations in public housing because in working with tenants associations, I have seen a lot of very positive results that can come about because of the involvement of the tenants and how they take responsibility. They become part of the decision making for their own groups and their neighbours in particular complexes.

The tenants association is something that we encourage, we fund. There is a fund of $24 per unit that goes towards a tenants association, that they use as their source of funding in the administration of their association. They become a very valuable voice in dealing with Manitoba Housing because it gives Manitoba Housing a sounding board, and also a place for them to look at changes or to look at innovative approaches to Manitoba Housing. I think that it is utilized not only by the tenants association but it is utilized by the department in trying to work with the various tenants in the buildings.

A lot of times tenants associations, in their dealings with the tenants themselves, are actually sometimes even harder on the tenants than the so-called Manitoba Housing because they take a responsibility for their association and their surroundings, so I encourage them. We support them. I try to go to meetings. If I am invited, I will make a point of going to them. There are general guidelines. There is a brochure that we can make available to the member as to how they are structured in the guideline book.

But like I say, I think that there is a real value in trying to work even more with tenants associations and the delegation of authority and decision making down to them. As we are trying to do in at least one of our tenants associations is even delegating spending authorities and the ability to make decisions regarding budgeting. It is a slow process, but I think that it is a process that the tenants association of this particular complex are taking very seriously. They have worked at it very, very diligently. They have elected people that have responsible decision-making capabilities, and we are trying to work with them very, very closely in setting up their own programming at this particular complex.

It is Gilbert Park that I am talking about. What it has spawned, it has spawned very, very strong interest in other tenants associations, but to give them their due credit no one is rushing into it headlong. They are all approaching it very cautiously and working very closely with our department as to what is the best way to handle the so-called responsibilities that we are trying to carry down to them. So I am, like I say, a very strong proponent of tenants associations.

I think that any public housing complex that does not have a tenants association is missing out on something that is available for not only an improvement for themselves, but an ability to get improvements for their areas, because a lot of the tenants associations have to take a lot of initiatives on their own for improvement in their own complex.

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I know the Triplex complex in Transcona has gone out, and they have raised funding for parklike structures in the area. They went out, and they have trees planted in their area. This was all done on their own initiative in a sense because they wanted something better for their complex. So we feel that they are a very, very valuable part of public housing here in Manitoba.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I look forward to getting a copy of the guidelines for tenants associations.

I would like to ask the minister if tenant board meetings are open meetings to which residents can attend and observe.

Mr. Reimer: The tenants association meetings, I am told, are open to all members of that particular complex. The outside individual, from what I am told, if they are invited to the tenants association meeting they can come, but I do not believe they are open just for the general public to walk in.

Mr. Martindale: Is there a requirement or is it permissive for tenant association boards to post a copy of their minutes in a publicly accessible place?

Mr. Reimer: I have been told that because there is sometimes a confidentiality concern in the minutes of the meeting that the minutes are available to all tenants in the complex. Even with that, if there is a reference to an individual tenant where there has been concerns expressed, that tenant's name or unit is deleted in the minutes that are circulated. Also, they are not posted in a public place, but they are available to all tenants. A record is kept and the tenant can see those minutes on a request basis to the association.

Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us what kid of arrangements are in place at Gilbert Park for tenant management? The minister referenced this earlier. I wonder if you could maybe just spell out briefly some of the responsibilities that the tenants association has.

Mr. Reimer: I alluded earlier to the Gilbert Park Tenants Association. I will even go on record here on Hansard and say: I am very, very pleased with working with the tenants association. Everybody that I have dealt with at Gilbert Park has been very enthusiastic and very excited about the fact that we are trying to evolve the management of the Gilbert Park complex to the tenants association. Our date that we are trying to shoot for is April l, 2000.

Just recently they have had an election there at Gilbert Park, so there are a few new people on the tenants association, but the core and the idea is still there for self-management. We have delegated some budget authorities to these people for decision making in handling the budget for some of the maintenance programs, some of the yard programs and some of the office programs, garbage collection, snow removal. I believe also we do some application processing through there. We have had some excellent results with that.

I think what has also been a strong indicator of Gilbert Park too is the residents. The vacancy rate has actually gone down there. There are not that many vacancies in Gilbert Park anymore. I am not too sure what the percentage would be. There are very few vacancies. I think that is a sign of stability in the area. I think there is a better ownership, if you want to call it, of the community by the tenants association.

The idea is to turn over this Manitoba Housing unit to the tenants association. Naturally the accountability and the guidelines and the transparency of decision making has to be in mind with Manitoba Housing, but we are certainly not trying to put impediments or obstacles in the eventual turnover to Gilbert Park. I think that they have shown initiative and, if anything, we will work even more aggressively with trying to accommodate their goals.

Mr. Martindale: As the minister knows, the purpose of rent geared to income is to make housing affordable. I think generally speaking it does that. But the minister is probably also aware that one of the problems in public housing is that if people are on social assistance or employment assistance or have very low incomes, because of the rent geared to income their rent is low. However, if they get a job, especially if they get a decent paying job, their rent goes way up.

One of the effects that this has in public housing is that it encourages people to move out because, as soon as their rent is higher than the private market, there is an economic incentive for them to move. This has a detrimental effect, I believe, on public housing because, first of all, there is a concentration of people who are on social assistance, not that that is a problem in itself, but it tends to make almost all the tenants identical in terms of the socioeconomic circumstances; and, secondly, it means that there is a high turnover or that there is a turnover when people get a job and move out. That has its own problems because someone has to select new tenants to go in.

Normally, in housing, your repair costs are highest when someone moves out because that is when management moves in with painters and people to repair the drywall or windows or whatever is required, so there is an expense every time someone moves out to rehabilitate the unit for the next tenant, if expenses are incurred.

Now, I was told that there may be a rent ceiling in place in Gilbert Park to counteract this effect of people moving out when they get a decent paying job. I am wondering if that is the case, if the minister can explain it to me.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, the member is right. There is what we call a rent ceiling in Gilbert Park. One of the reasons that we did that was exactly what the member had outlined in regard to trying to put a sense of stability and permanency for some of the tenants that were in Gilbert Park. The member is right. It seemed that we were penalizing people that were going out and improving and getting themselves a job and moving up the income ladder, if you want to call it, because of their own initiatives.

So one of the things we did to try to put some sort of stability into Gilbert Park, and we did it also for Lord Selkirk Park I should point out, is put in rent ceilings. Just as a matter of record, at Gilbert Park, the rent ceilings on the two-bedroom units are $450; for the three bedrooms, they are $550; for a four-bedroom, it is $575–did I say three-bedroom $550? I think I said that, I am sorry. A four-bedroom is $575 and five-bedroom is $600. We find that that is another incentive for people to stay in the area and it gives stability, too, because the people are able to know that this is their rent even if they earn more money.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The time being five o'clock, it is time for private members' hour. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

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Madam Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for Private Members' Business.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, given the circum-stance today of us sitting at committee on a very important and urgent matter of great public importance, I have spoken with my colleagues opposite in House management, and they are just at this moment consulting with their party leadership as to whether or not there is a willingness to call the hour 6 p.m.

If Madam Speaker would allow us a few brief moments, we may have agreement that there is a willingness of the House to call it six o'clock.

Madam Speaker: Madam Speaker is more than willing to wait for the directive from the House.

Mr. Praznik: Thank you.

Madam Speaker, if you would canvass the House, you would find a willingness to call it six o'clock.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to call it six o'clock? [agreed]

The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday).