Madam Speaker: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., time for Private Members' Business.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that

"WHEREAS on February 13, 1999 the New Democratic Party Caucus sponsored a Parents' Forum on Child Care; and

"WHEREAS the purpose of the Forum was to hear from parents about what is needed to make child care more responsive to the changing needs of today's families; and

"WHEREAS parents and child care providers indicated that there is a desperate need for before-and-after-school programs; greater respect and support for early childhood educators, especially in terms of the wages for these professionals; more flexibility for day care operators in terms of revenue for the centre and subsidies for the parents; a coordinated approach to providing services to children and families; and more resources and support for special needs children; and

"WHEREAS parents also expressed concern about the impact of cuts in the child care system which have shortened the job search period, made it difficult to attract and retain child care workers, and jeopardized the monitoring and support function of the Provincial Government; and

"WHEREAS Manitoba's system was once viewed as a North American model for child care programs; and

"WHEREAS given that Manitoba is once again the child poverty capital of Canada with one in four children living in poverty in this province, a strong child care system is essential.

"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Provincial Government to consider investing in opportunities for our children and go on record as supporting a fully accessible, publicly funded, non-profit system of comprehensive, high quality child care."

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Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on this resolution which stands in my name, and it was also a pleasure for our caucus to host a parents' forum which was held at the Manitoba Legislature on February 13, 1999. We were very pleased that about 50 parents and child care professionals and community representatives attended. We were also pleased that we had people that volunteered to be facilitators for the smaller groups that we organized.

The purpose was to listen to parents. Of course, it is always a good idea to listen to people who are affected by government policy, and this was no exception. We assigned a number of topics, and people chose the group into which they wanted to go. We recorded everything that was said, and after it was over, we collated everything that was said by everyone who make a contribution. Once again, we thank everyone who was there for their contributions.

People listed numerous concerns, some of which are recorded in my resolution. But there were many more concerns, not all of which are recorded in the resolution, so I am going to read from the summary that we made of people's concerns.

The main concerns were based on inadequate funding. Participants claimed that there is currently not enough funding for special programming for children with behaviour disorders, such as FAS, FAE, and ADHD. Concern was expressed about lack of transportation for physically disabled children, about extended hours for parents who work evenings, and, in general, if I can summarize, there was a concern about the need for more flexible hours for child care. We do know there are a couple of centres in Winnipeg that are providing more flexible hours.

There is also the Lakeview Children's Centre at Langruth, which is based on a hub model and also provides flexibility for parents who are involved in farming and have different needs than other people because of the irregular hours of work.

There was also concern expressed about the need for backup staff. For instance, if children are sick, also for educational opportunities for staff and concern about the ability to keep well-trained staff. Probably that would be one of the most important concerns that we heard. There are reasons for this, I think the main reason being that salaries are so low compared to the amount of education that is required, namely, two years of post-secondary education as a minimum to be an Early Childhood Educator II or an Early Childhood Educator III. The result is that child care centres are experiencing a very high turnover. They are having trouble keeping staff because people can go into other related occupations that pay higher wages. The result is that centres are currently advertising for staff, and they cannot get anybody to apply because the wages are so low. So what do they do? They hire unqualified staff, and then they have to apply for an exemption for licencing due to improper ratios of qualified staff.

Members would be interested to know that I asked for a list of these centres from the minister, and I received a very short list. However, I believe a much longer list exists, but I did not ask for the right kind of exemptions. I know that the executive director of the Manitoba Child Care Association has written, and I have written as well asking for the complete list of centres that have an exemption for licencing. We will be very interested to see how many centres are on that list and how it compares with previous lists that we have. But we suspect that there is a long list of centres that do not meet the licensing requirements, and I will be interested to hear, if the minister speaks in this debate, what she has to say about that.

I also noticed, Madam Speaker, in a recent publication that all members received from Red River Community College called 1997-1998 Graduate Employment Report, it is a very interesting report that I read every year. I particularly look at the statistics on Early Childhood Educator, for their two-year diploma program. I noticed that there was a big decline in the number of graduates from the '95-96 school year to the '96-97 school year. In fact, the number of graduates declined from 54 to 41, which is about a 25 percent decline. I am not sure of all the reasons for that. Perhaps I should phone Red River College and ask the instructors and see what they think the reason is, but I suspect that one of the reasons may be that those people who may be considering going into child care realize that there are problems in terms of wages and it is not commensurate with their level of education, and so it is not as attractive an occupation to go into as maybe it once was.

Other concerns expressed by parents and other participants were that there is very little drop-in and part-time child care available, which I think fits into what I was saying about the lack of flexible hour child care. I know that this is something that the minister has promised and has commented on many times in the past. I look forward to hearing from her about whether there has been any improvement in that area. Certainly parents are saying there needs to be a great deal of improvement.

There are too few school-age centres and spaces. There are waiting lists for spaces which are too long. This tends to be a cyclical matter, but currently we understand there are waiting lists at many centres.

There are few male child care workers and thus few male role models. I think this is something that we do need to address so that people, children especially, do not think that you have to be female to be a child care worker. Fortunately there are some male workers. In fact, across the street from my constituency office, the executive director of Keep Childcare is Jeff Richard [phonetic], and it is good to see that there are executive directors who are male, but this is something that we need to work on. We need to encourage more men to become early childhood educators.

We also heard that unemployed parents lose their subsidies and spaces if they do not find a job within two weeks. This problem was certainly caused by the government when they changed their policy a number of years ago when they took $5 million of funding out of the child care system. In fact, they did that twice. They took $10 million out of the child care system and then they added back $5 million and then they added back another $5 million.

But it is kind of a shell game, you know. You take money out and you change a policy, but it has a long-term impact, and this is one of those. I remember that when the government cut the number of weeks for a search for employment from eight weeks to two, I phoned Canada employment and I found out that at that time, on average people took 23 weeks to find employment. So certainly two weeks is inadequate. We think that that has a detrimental affect on people's ability to find work.

There were many recommendations that came out of the public forum. They were good recommendations. Here is a summary of some of them: that government encourage a shift in public values by financially recognizing the importance of the service provided in child care centres and licensed family homes. I think one of the ways to do that is to ensure that staff are adequately compensated, commensurate with their level of education. This certainly sends a positive message to parents and to society, if you value the service that is being provided, and also makes it more attractive for people to go into that profession.

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That operating grants reflect the actual costs of operation. There were many comments about that, and there are many variations currently in the cost of operating centres. For example, some centres do not pay any rent, other centres have very reasonable rent, and some have very expensive rent, but there is a lack of equalization of class in the system. For example, some centres may only have to pay a rent of a dollar a month, while others pay $1,500 a month.

Another recommendation was that recognition of staff be reflected by enhancing and standardizing salaries across the system and increasing opportunities for education and training. Certainly, there is a recognition in society that it is no longer sufficient to go to school to get a certificate or degree or diploma and graduate and then not go back to school again or not upgrade yourself or not continue your education.

There is an expression, which is in vogue now, which is "lifelong learning," and I think almost all professions recognize that there is a need for lifelong learning. I think that is what the parents and others are saying here, and that is that there is a need for ongoing education and training. Certainly, organizations like the Manitoba Child Care Association encourage that and provide workshops for their members to upgrade their education and training.

Another recommendation is that child care be recognized as a significant antipoverty measure. Now, we know that Manitoba has a disgraceful record when it comes to child poverty. We, once again, are the child poverty capital of Canada, with one in four children living in poverty in this province. It would certainly be much higher if all Manitobans were included not just Manitobans who live off reserve.

You know, this minister likes to talk about early childhood education, and she has made a lot of announcements. We have called this minister the minister of pilot projects, because she has made so many announcements about pilot projects. She likes to quote the research from people like Dr. Fraser Mustard about the importance of early childhood education. We believe that child care is one of the ways in which the effects of poverty can be ameliorated in a positive way by high quality, affordable child care.

Certainly, there are many, many children who qualify for special social needs and have access to the child care system because of their social needs. Many of these children, it is my understanding, come from families with very low incomes. That is one of the reasons why they qualify for the special social needs. It would be interesting to know from the minister, in her speech today or perhaps in Family Services Estimates, whether the number of those spaces is being increased or whether it is static because certainly there is a demand for child care for these kinds of children.

It was also recommended that children have their individual needs met, that centres offer part-time and drop-off care which I have mentioned before; in fact, I did some interesting research on this. Not only am I familiar with some examples in Manitoba of what we call flexible care, but there is a private operator in Brampton, Ontario. I do not have her name with me, but I think her name is Heather Bauer [phonetic]. She used to work in Manitoba, and now she owns several child care centres and she has the first licensed drop-in centre in Ontario. We need to study that and see if that is a good model to have a licensed drop-in centre. I think that would fit with our concerns about the need for flexible care.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, we believe that there should be a fully accessible, publicly funded nonprofit system of comprehensive high quality child care in Manitoba, and we think that the 50 participants at our child care forum agree with that. Thank you.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to stand today here as the Minister of Family Services and indicate that I am extremely proud of our government's record on the child care front and many other areas, especially within the Department of Family Services which I have the responsibility for. I share along with, I know, all members of this Legislature, even those that have recently joined the Filmon team on the opposite side of the House by voting for our budget. I know that not only are they supportive of our government's direction, they are even putting billboards and signs up now that have that Tory-blue colour. They are looking at changing their image to try to echo and duplicate our party's position and what our party stands for.

I am really glad to see that at long last the New Democratic opposition party is beginning to see the light and beginning to understand that a lot of the policies that we have put in place over the last 11 years have enabled us to bring in a budget this year that does balance things on the economic side and put money into areas where there certainly is an increased need on the social side.

My department, Madam Speaker, is one of the departments on the social side of government that indeed has seen a significant increase on child care as well as many other areas within the department. So I am really pleased to see that the New Democrats now believe that the Filmon government has done a good job. I will speak to some of the things that we have done specifically on the child care side and with early childhood educators and parents that need the support of child care in order to work in our province. I do know that, as society changes and as things in the economy change, there certainly is need for changes in our child care program to meet those needs.

I am extremely proud to say that more Manitobans are working today. Our economy is booming. Our unemployment rate is second to none across the country at 5.6 percent. So that is something that I think deserves to be given some credit by the opposition to some of the policies that we have put in place.

I am also very proud to say that since 1988, when we took over as government, there has been $20 million more put into child care, not less. My honourable friend plays with figures and numbers. Twenty-six million dollars more is $26 million more, not less, a 97 percent increase in funding for child care. We will spend in this year's budget, which the opposition did vote for, $54 million. I am sure congratulations from my honourable friend across the way would be in order for the significant commitment that has been made.

Madam Speaker, I want to compare that to our neighbour to the west, the province of Saskatchewan, that is governed by a New Democratic Party, who has approximately the same number of children from ages zero to 12 as our province does. Let me tell you what their budget for child care is. It is $17.9 million per year. We spent $54 million to $17.9 million by a New Democratic government just to the west of us.

Tell me which government places priority on child care and children. That is the kind of policy that we would see from the New Democratic Party if they were in government here in Manitoba. I think our budget and our commitment show that our government does care about Manitoba's children. Also, on the side of–I know my honourable friend did have a consultation and had 15 members of the child care community, whether they be parents or child care providers, in to visit and discuss child care issues. I know part of his resolution talks about more funding and more money for children with disabilities.

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I do want to indicate that our child care funding for children with disabilities is almost doubled in this year's budget to $4.4 million, so I know that my honourable friend would be very happy with that announcement and that part of the good news within our new budget.

Madam Speaker, we have seen a major expansion of child care spaces, over 5,000 more child care spaces in Manitoba since we took over as government, and we recognize and realize the need for subsidized child care. That has been, since we took over as government in 1988 increased by 129 percent. That is not insignificant when you look at the kind of resources that have been focused on child care.

I am also really proud to say that I am part of a government that does look at assisting Manitobans to become more self-sufficient and independent. We know that the best form of social security is a job, and since 1996 when we introduced our welfare reform initiative we have 10,000 more individuals and families working that have moved off of welfare and into the workforce. Not insignificant, Madam Speaker.

We have placed a very high priority on services for individuals, whether it be through Taking Charge! or whether it be through other programs like Opportunities for Employment. I know that our Premier speaks often about his visit to Opportunities for Employment where three years ago, when the program was started, they looked at providing assistance for just over a hundred clients per year to move off of welfare and into the workforce. After three years of operation, they had their thousandth graduate from the program. That thousandth graduate that was recognized was a single parent with six children who had found meaningful employment and was being recognized, and spoke very humbly about what a job opportunity has meant for her and her six children. I think those are the kinds of examples that need to be highlighted because we know that a job for that woman and that individual has impacted in a positive way on her and the six children that she supports.

Madam Speaker, I know that many single parents have the opportunity to be trained and to move off of welfare and into the workforce as a result of programs that have been initiated by our government.

I want all Manitobans to know, and I think they do know, that child care and support for child care have been a very important part of our government's commitment to families. I know that the fact-finding mission that was undertaken by my colleague the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) received very many helpful comments from right across the province of Manitoba, and I would venture to guess that he has met more people working in our child care system and more parents that are in need of child care than any other member in this House.

As a result of that consultation and recommendations that were made from families and early childhood educators, we set up a regulatory review committee of members of the community, along with government, to make recommendations on how we could make the system more user friendly to those parents that need support and to those that work within the system, and we listened very carefully. As a result, I think we have got some innovative programming in place, and we have been able to address many of the recommendations that have come forward from that regulatory review committee process. This year's budget certainly goes a considerable way to addressing a lot of the recommendations that have been made. All of the spaces that in the past were unfunded are now fully funded, which has certainly had a significant positive impact on many of our centres that are running throughout the province. We have additional subsidized spaces. We have, in fact, increased the operating grants for full-time child care centres in this year's budget by 15 percent for infant spaces and 10 percent for preschool spaces.

Madam Speaker, the regulatory review committee did indicate to us that they wanted us to move to unit funding to try to ensure that the right levels of support were there for the right age groups of children, and I think that we have started to address that issue in a significant way.

I know my honourable friend talked about the $200,000 that was put into last year's budget for flexible child care. We cannot dictate to centres how they run their programs, but we are trying to provide incentives for those centres that are looking at more flexibility within the system. As a result of the uptake on that money last year to provide longer hours of operation and nontraditional hours of operation, we have put an additional $200,000 into that stream in this year's budget. So that will be a total of $400,000 to encourage centres to be creative and look to the needs of the parents and the families and their communities that are working to ensure that they are providing the kind of care that is most appropriate to those families' needs.

Madam Speaker, we have also had some increase in support for rural child care that will see the development of an additional 385 infant nursery and preschool child care spaces outside the city of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, I am proud that we have one of the best child care systems across the country, one that I can stand up as a part of a government that has supported significantly an increase in child care spaces and funding for child care spaces.

I am also very pleased with the new child care in schools policy that was announced just a few weeks back, that will consider capital funding for child care centres when there is a community need for that kind of space and that kind of facility.

So, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be part of a government that has placed the focus and priority on child care as a result of a commitment not only from me as the Minister of Family Services but from my colleagues who represent all parts of this province.

I think we have shown the sensitivity and the caring that is needed to ensure that families, when they are working, have the child care support that they need. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today and speak to an issue that is of great importance to our government, and that is child daycare and our ChildrenFirst policy.

Madam Speaker, our children are Manitoba's future, and our government recognizes that investing in a good start in life can ensure that children will become healthier adults, better able to participate in schoolwork productively. The first few years of life are critical to an individual's development, and that is why our government places such a high priority on child daycare. We know that quality child care has long-lasting positive effects on children and plays an important role in their healthy development and well-being.

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Our government recognizes that for many families a critical support for their efforts to become or remain self-sufficient is quality affordable child care. As members of this House are aware, increased support for child care is an important part of our government's commitment to working parents. As members of this House may recall, in 1996 the Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson, Minister of Family Services, asked me to conduct a fact-finding mission to find new ways of making our child care system even more responsive to the needs of Manitoba families.

I visited with daycare centre groups and family daycare homes throughout rural and urban Manitoba. I also held public meetings throughout our province. Our government listened carefully to the concerns of families and daycare providers, and we received many helpful comments and recommendations.

Madam Speaker, as I toured the province, I heard a number of the issues that the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) brought forward today, and I must say that this government responded to a number of them. They spoke about the flexibility which the member spoke about today. Our government implemented $200,000 in last year's budget to work on a plan that would help alleviate some of those concerns about the flexibility, and, again, this year, we put another $200,000 into that same proposal. There are daycares now looking at that initiative to better serve the community because the nine-to-five jobs are no longer a reality and sometimes within the nursing community or other professions where there is evening work going on they need that support mechanism in place.

I am pleased to tell the members of this House that our government is increasing funding for child daycare by over $5 million in this year's budget. The member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) spoke of a $5-million decrease in 1996. That $5-million decrease was relative to what was being spent at the time. It was not a real number because the numbers were not being spent, so it was just a misallocation of funds. Once we improved the system, we found that we could reallocate those funds within daycare and actually get a better resource from it.

One of the areas we found, Madam Speaker, when I was touring the province, they said to me that there was some money that was actually not being used to its full potential. Well, we found $800,000 worth of savings within the daycare itself that we were able to reinvest. With that reinvestment, we could license all those facilities which did not have funding at that time in the rural communities. All those unfunded spaces got funded with that $800,000.

That is an important number because when we look at daycare, we in the city started working on daycare many years ahead of the rural community. The rural community did not understand or did not have the need at the same time as the city of Winnipeg did. As we move towards the new improved daycare system throughout rural Manitoba and the city of Winnipeg, this year the minister has allocated an extra $500,000 for exactly that area, and that is rural daycare.

The member spoke about the group in Langruth, Madam Speaker, Lakeview. That group was one of the groups that I met with. Very progressive. The issues that they understand about how daycare is required within the rural setting and how the flexibility had to be put in place were very interesting. They came forward to the regulatory review commission, which was established by the minister after I had finished my fact-finding mission. This was one of the recommendations that they had: that they could have a body established of daycare community workers, parents, operators, so that they could review the situations and the concerns being brought forward. If you had have seen the list, the first list that I brought forward–and I know I gave the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) that list. Everybody said, where is this report that you did, so I gave the member the information from the fact-finding mission.

That information went to the committee. That committee reviewed it, and there were a number of things that were not actually needed. Some of them were just misunderstandings in how the daycare community was interpreting some of the regulations. Some of the regulations had to be simplified or put in plain English. In some cases, we had some of our own people, who were going out and giving direction, giving us a different direction in Winnipeg versus going in Brandon or Melita or wherever it was in the province. So it was interesting that, when we were able to focus on these issues within a group and say, how is it we can best put in place this flexibility and the needs to create the inequities within the system, they were able to find that.

I find the improvements since '96 dramatic. Maybe the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) does not, and I understand he brought some of these concerns forward. Some of the private-home daycare workers that the member was speaking of were talking about inequities within it. Those issues have come forward to the regulatory review committee. Those issues are being dealt with today–[interjection] I did not hear it. Go ahead.

An Honourable Member: The child daycare system in Manitoba is a model for North America.

Mr. Laurendeau: The child daycare system today is a model for North America. Find me a better model anywhere. Find me a model anywhere today, Madam Speaker, in North America that beats our system here. You are not going to find it in our neighbour to the west, where they only spent $17.3 million. We have increased our funding since we became government by more than they have allocated today in their entire budget–$26 million we have increased it by. They only spent $17.3 million. Is that the model we should be going after? Maybe we should go after the model in Alberta, where it is totally privatized now? Maybe we should be looking at the model in Ontario that the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) spoke about, which is again a privatized system, which does not have the same allocation, the dollars that we do here in this province. Maybe we should look at what they have in New Brunswick, which is very minimal.

I have looked at the models across this country, and we have the best ones right here in Manitoba. I spoke to a group from Minneapolis who was looking at our model. The invited me down to speak to them about our model of daycare within our province, because they wanted to implement what we had. Now, that is what I call important, when a city the size of Minneapolis looks at what we have as a model for what they want to bring in.

So do not be telling me that there are a lot of inequities that cannot be dealt with. Yes, there are some inequities. There will always be some inequities, because you are not going to have it perfect at any one time. The opposition did not have it perfect when they were in government, because we have created a lot more flexibility within the system.

An additional 400 new child care spaces will be created for parents being served outside of the conventional business hours. That is what that $200,000 is doing, last year's and this year's.

An Honourable Member: Let us have an election and see. Let us have an election tomorrow.

Mr. Laurendeau: The member keeps saying: call an election and see. They voted for the budget. They supported a budget which increased funding to daycare by $5 million. They said they were in favour of doing it.

Madam Speaker, they are looking for all kinds of excuses for us to go to the polls. I am not hearing it when I go to the doors. The people that I am hearing at the doors are happy to hear from me. I attended a meeting the other day at Smitty's restaurant. This was a "come meet your NDP candidate" meeting. You know who showed up? Nobody. It was not the candidate either. Even the candidate did not show up. She had an executive meeting there but no candidate.

I had three of my constituents saying: Marcel, we are still going to be voting for you because she did not even come out to meet us.

And they called this going out to meet the public. Madam Speaker, the people in my constituency respect what I have done. The member for Wolseley (Mr. Friesen) was out knocking at doors in my area. Let me tell you, they are not pulling the wool over anybody's eyes. The people of St. Norbert know what an NDP government would do. They would destroy daycare in the province of Manitoba. They would bring it back to the past. They would do as the NDP in Saskatchewan have done, and they would reduce funding for daycare, because they do not care about our children's future. They do not really care or they would not believe in what they believe in today.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I am wondering if the member for St. Norbert would entertain a question.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. That is not a point of order, but sometimes flexibility is allowed. The honourable for St. Norbert has four minutes remaining.

Mr. Laurendeau: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I am sure after my four minutes are up, if the honourable member would want to give leave, I would be more than happy to answer a question of the honourable member for Burrows–after my four minutes are up.

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Let me say that when it comes to child care, I have visited over 140 different child care facilities within this province. I have talked to thousands of people throughout this province about daycare. When I was in Brandon, we spoke about a number of issues. Let me say that the first few meetings were a little bit spooky. I mean, I walked in the doors, and they were saying: what, you are from government, you are here to do what? I said: I am here to listen. And they said, well, no government in the past has ever listened to us. No government in the past has ever initiated the changes that we really want to see. And I said: we will. We will implement the changes that are necessary because we believe in the ChidrenFirst policy. We believe that our children are our future, and we believe that without our children being better taken care of, we would not have a future here in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, I am proud of the achievements that my government has reached in the short term that I have been here. I consider–I have only been elected since 1990–the inequities that we had to deal with not only–[interjection] Madam Speaker, I could enter into a debate on a number of the issues, but I do believe that the issue that is before me right now is child daycare.

Our government's 1999-2000 child care budget will increase operating grants for full-time child care centres' infant spaces by 15 percent and 10 percent for preschool spaces. As well, operating grants will now be provided for all previously unfunded, nonprofit infant and preschool expansion spaces that currently exist in a funded child care centre.

Madam Speaker, that is an interesting number because the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) spoke about the minister's pilot projects. Those unfunded spots that the member for Burrows was speaking about were exactly that. They were pilot projects established by this minister to fill in an inequity within the system. We had facilities that had the capability of having 48 spaces in them, but because of their licensing requirement at the time, they only had 42. We were able to expand them with the pilot projects so they could get full use of the allocated dollars on the operating budget side, so that they could use up those 48 or 50 spaces. Those nine and 10 spaces today that this minister established back in 1995, '96, '97, '98, those spaces today are funded. Why? Because this minister put in place funding for those spaces.

Then the Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) talks about the cutting. Madam Speaker, there were no cuts; $26 million dollars more in daycare today than there was when we were first brought to office–$26 million. I do not care whose books you open up, a $26-million increase is an increase, is an increase.

Madam Speaker, if they want to speak about the $5-million so-called reduction that the member for Burrows spoke about, look at what was actually spent. It was $5 million less spent because of the inequities within the system. The inequities within the system that were established by them when they were in government before we had a chance to review them did not allow for the full expenditures of the allocated dollars. Today, the money, the allocation, is being spent, spent on the future of our children, spent to their best needs.

We are reaching out to the families of Manitoba to see that they have child care. We are taking and using child care, not only–[interjection] Madam Speaker, when we look at child daycare today, it has helped us because Manitoba, with the jobs that we have created throughout this province, had to look at a flexible system that worked. We have taken people off of welfare; we have put them to work, and those are single mothers who require daycare.

Madam Speaker, those are some of the spots that we have opened up. I am proud of where my government is going on daycare. I am proud of what my minister has done, and I am proud to go knock on the doors and talk about daycare tomorrow and daycare for the future. That is a daycare under this government.

Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, with leave of the House, I am wondering if I could ask the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) a question.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Burrows have leave to ask a question? [agreed]

Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the member for St. Norbert, briefly, if he agrees with the statement that his government spends too much money on child care and that mothers should stay home, as the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) said from his seat.

Mr. Laurendeau: Madam Speaker, I do not know where the member gets such information because my government and my members believe in the child care system that we have today. We believe in nurturing children, and if the honourable member misunderstood what the nurturing of children meant, I really think he has a problem, because we believe in the child care system that we have today. We have proven that by this year's budget, where we have increased funding by over $5 million. We have proven it since we formed government by putting in $26 million more funding since we were first elected.

So let him not say that we do not believe in daycare on this side of the House. We do believe in daycare, or we would not have put $500,000 more into daycare today to take care of our rural daycare concerns that we have within this province. So, Madam Speaker, no, the members on this side of the House support daycare throughout the province for the children and our future.

Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I think we have clearly today enunciated the difference between us and them. I think we know now what honesty means, and we know now what caring means, and we know now what truly the parental responsibility means. I think we have identified clearly what we meant when the honourable member opposite raised a question and indicated what I had said. I think he should have honestly said that I truly believe, as a member for Emerson, that mothers are the best parents and the best caretakers of children, and I truly believe that. I do not think there is a dispute of that in the world. I think the programs that we have initiated clearly demonstrate our government's belief in mother's role in raising children.

However, we know that there are circumstances that prevail from time to time that do not allow mothers to spend time with their children, and that is why we are probably the frontrunner in this country in developing a care system for our children that we truly believe in, and that our minister deserves a tremendous amount of credit for. I truly believe that the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) and the work that he has done in asking–and this is why I say this is the difference between us and them–I remember well, Madam Speaker, when I was not in government, when their ministers came to us in rural Manitoba and told us exactly what we had to do. When they were in government, they believed in government that told people what to do. We believe in going out and asking people how to design programs, how to develop policies, and how to develop initiatives that will make things better for our children. We believe in asking people how to deal with young people, whether it is through the Young Offenders Act inquiries, whether it is though our daycare act inquiries, whether it is through our education act inquiries–[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing difficulty hearing the honourable member for Emerson.

The honourable member for Emerson, to continue.

Mr. Penner: Madam Speaker, we will be quite proud to go before the people and identify clearly the differentiation between us and them. Let me say this to you: I truly believe that when the writ comes down, whenever our Premier decides to call the election, the people of Manitoba will once again clearly identify what kind of government they will want and what kind of direction they will want to give, and that is simply that I believe that people believe that consulting with them, asking them how to devise policies, and not taking clear directions from the opposition are what the people will finally prefer.

I truly believe that this resolution that has been put before us by the honourable members opposite is not the kind of things that people in Manitoba want. The kind of programs that we have put forward to take care of children, now whether it is the BabyFirst program, whether it is the EarlyStart program, or whether it is in fact encouraging mothers to spend more time with their children–that is the kind of direction our people want from government. That is the kind of programming our people want from government, and I truly believe that our support during the next election campaign will clearly demonstrate that people believe that mothers and fathers are the No. 1 caretakers of children. If the honourable members opposite want to argue that, then I am quite willing to debate that any time at any public forum anywhere in this province.

I feel very strongly about that, and I believe that the initiatives, the programs that our minister has developed and put forward, are some of the best in the country, if indeed not some of the best in the world. I think anybody here in the opposition cannot stand in honesty and argue that.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) will have 11 minutes remaining.

The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).