Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for The Maples is up on a grievance.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Yesterday the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) called me a coward. I have been called many things, but a coward is something that I have never been called before. I debated to do a matter of privilege today, not because I was called a coward but because of the reason I was called a coward.

Just to put it in context, yesterday during the committee hearings of the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Tourism, near the end, there were a few minutes to go and I and my colleague for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) were hoping to get to the line that the member for Crescentwood had wanted to remove $5 million from. So, when it got to within four minutes of five o'clock, they had finished the page, and they asked if there was agreement to call it five o'clock, and we said no.

So I think the member for Crescentwood was a little bit disappointed that he could not get out of there on time. So when it was called five o'clock, he came over to talk. There was myself, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), there was the minister's staff present, there was the Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer) present. I started questioning him how he could have the inconsistency of voting for the budget and then trying to change the budget. He said: well, at least I was not a coward that avoided the vote.

Then, a few minutes later, while the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) was there, when the member for St. Norbert questioned him, he said: well, we were not going to vote for the budget and have you saying at the door that we are against tax cuts. So that is the principal position they took. That is the principal position he took, that he voted for the budget based on the upcoming election. That is a principal position.

Still, being accused of being a coward by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), I do not take seriously. I come from a very macho environment, the police force, where I have had bullets miss me by inches, I have been a skydiver, so I do not take it seriously from the member who, when someone mentions that they are going to punch his lights out, he comes running back in here doing a matter of privilege. So I do not take it too seriously, although I felt like punching his lights out at that point, but it was for the fact that my privilege, my right as a member to use a long-standing parliamentary tradition of being paired.

Now they have 23 members to do party duties. You know, if they have a personal commitment, if they have a constituency commitment, that they could take turns in pairing and that. We only have two members here, and if I am going to be intimidated from using my privilege, my right as a member to pair with someone, maybe I should have done a matter of privilege and the member should have been censured. But I will continue to use my right as a pair.

I will not take the comment from the member for Crescentwood, a member who has countless numbers of times been found to bring information into this House that was later found to be inaccurate, the member who the Free Press editorials questioned his accounting practices and his judgment, the member who Judge Monnin questions his judgment. I am going to worry about that? No, and I am going to continue to use the practice and the fact that he would question my integrity, my intestinal fortitude to vote.

When have I been reluctant to take an unpopular viewpoint? I went against the Leader of the Liberal Party of Manitoba on principles. I am not scared to vote with my conscience and I will continue, and to be called a coward by the member for Crescentwood, I find repugnant. Then to admit that his principles are, well, we will vote for what will win us an election.

* (1430)

I know we are coming up to an election and things are getting pretty heated, but let me remind people that when the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) passed away and I said remember you are human beings, and to get personal. You know, politics is one thing, to disagree with an issue, but to call someone a coward, to question their integrity. You know, I am leaving this place and when you leave here one thing you want to leave is your good name. You want to be known for having good integrity. So for the member for Crescentwood to question my integrity, to question my motives for pairing is not acceptable, Madam Speaker.

When I was going through the difficult times I did because I could not agree with some of the directions that the Leader of the Liberal Party was going, and I had to take a very difficult position, I have to admit I considered going to another party. I always said that quite often I agreed with the policies of the New Democratic Party, but I never agreed with their tactics. I found working with the Conservatives, them to be honourable, respectful people. Okay. [interjection] See, this is typical. This is typical. Now the member mentions my wife. Can you get more personal?

Is that the type of tactics the NDP, that is after mentioning–years from now when she meets my wife, my daughter, me on the street, will she be proud for political purposes, instead of understanding the difficult position I am in as a human being and as a person, that she would acknowledge that, but for political purposes, the self-righteousness of these members because they have 23 members that could yell louder than the two of us, that eventually they get to believe themselves. You know, because if you say it often enough and you yell loud enough, you start to believe yourself.

So, after the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) tells me the reason he voted for the budget was because it would gain him votes in the next election–this was a party that I thought was a principled party. Well, now I believe the NDP stands for no darn principle party.

So I will continue to pair. I will continue to do my job. I remember before the '95 election there were a number of members that were leaving, Jerry Storie, I think, John Plohman. I remember they were allowed to leave with dignity. They maybe did not put as much time into the Chamber as they normally would have because they were preparing their exit, but they were fulfilling their duties, and I am fulfilling my duties. I am fulfilling my duties just as they did, and if I am going to be paired, no one better question my integrity. Thank you, Madam Speaker.