Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty-five Grade 9 students from Sargent Park School under the direction of Ms. Ricki Syrota. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, yesterday when asking questions about Manitoba's only centre, the Child Development Clinic, the minister said, in answers to our question, do not worry, everything is fine, a pre-election announcement is going to take care of this after four years of making the other pre-election announcement. Then he said he did not know about the situation, and then he said there are $35,000. I would like to know: given the problem had been identified in January of 1999, why is the minister not aware of these waiting lists for kids, and why is he not taking action to deal with these waiting lists for children?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member's preamble is mostly wrong as usual. The amount that I referred to was $385,000; I remind him that he was only out by $350,000 or thereabouts. We recognized that these waiting lists were too long and these waiting lists needed to be reduced. That is why we dedicated $385,000 more last year to do just that, to reduce the waiting lists.

In terms of the physicians at the Child Development Clinic, I think as he himself said in Question Period yesterday, he said that there are two and a half doctors at the centre, and he expressed concern about the one doctor that is actually leaving to go and continue her education by becoming a child psychologist, I believe. The WHA and the clinic will not only be filling those positions, they will actually end up with three and a half positions instead of two and a half positions. So there will be an additional equivalent of a full position to do the very thing that he is asking about, to continue to work on those waiting lists, to bring them down, because we agree they are unacceptable and that is why we put in place the money to address that important issue.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I know the minister talked about $380,000 in the House yesterday, and I also know that he talked about an additional–and in the media it was another $35,000 from WHA who said they had no money to deal with this problem, after the minister had to revisit this issue for the third time in less than an hour.

Madam Speaker, I am very concerned about the fact that the minister did not know about these waiting lists yesterday, that he hung onto his pre-election announcement. We have heard it before, by the way. We did have a similar announcement from the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) in, I believe it was, March of 1995.

I want to know: why is there such an information vacuum between the front-line parents and people who are working with kids to deal with the waiting lists and the minister? We note that 900 children are currently on the speech list. It is a real situation. Again, we have had other announcements over and over again. Why is this minister not aware of the long waiting lists for families and parents, in spite of his pre-election announcements?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, these additional funds were put in place last year, as I have said to the member for Concordia, an additional $385,000 for the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to address the very issue that we are talking about today. We recently approved some additional $950,000 for speech therapy services across all of Manitoba to all of the regional health authorities, again to continue to work at providing those services, to reduce the waiting lists in this very important area. So we have recognized that this is an area that needs to be addressed, and we have taken action by putting those resources in place. I am assuming that the Leader of the Opposition supports those actions by his recent actions in terms of supporting and voting for the budget that includes these additional funds to continue to maintain these services and reduce waiting lists.

Mr. Doer: Well, presumably this was in the budget in 1995, or was the government not telling the truth when they announced the specialists in 1995 and made their announcement and the Premier made the announcement. Of course we know what he stands for when it comes to the truth.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the Leader of the official opposition to pick and choose his words very carefully. "To tell the truth" and directly attributable to a member of the Assembly has been indeed called unparliamentary, and it has been ruled out of order.

The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order.

Mr. Doer: I think if you would peruse Hansard you would find, unlike the Premier who has had to apologize in this House for breaking the rules 15 times in the last couple of years, that I was maintaining the rules of this Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the official opposition, I will indeed take it under advisement, and I will check the comments made in Hansard and report back to the Chamber.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the official opposition, to pose his question.

Mr. Doer: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would note that the 900 kids waiting on a waiting list had been informed that the staffing for the speech therapy will not be hired until June. Of course, that is what we heard in March of '95, and then in June of '95 the staff were not hired by this government. So we have a history of broken promises from this government.

Madam Speaker, I would like to know why the front-line staff and people are not being dealt with by the two regional health authorities in Winnipeg established by this government, the two separate regional boards of people. Why do we have seven vice-presidents in the WHA, and why can we not get doctors working with kids to lessen the waiting lists?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is feeling feisty today now that he has his election billboards up around the city with his face–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Just to conclude, Madam Speaker, I saw the Leader of the Opposition's smiling face as I drove in this morning. I am sure he is smiling because he supported our 1999 budget. At least he had the wisdom to decide to vote for this year's budget. This budget includes the support for the health authorities that he is talking about, the health authorities that are co-ordinating services right across Manitoba, co-ordinating the best use of our facilities, our equipment and our people.

When it comes to the issue that he asked about earlier, again, we have put in place significant additional resources to address the very important issue of providing services to children in the whole area of speech therapy and speech services. That is why we have enhanced the funding. That is why we did it last year. That is why that money is rolling forward into this budget, the 1999 budget, and I am sure that is one of the many reasons why the NDP finally had the wisdom to support our 1999 budget.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): In the gallery today are several LPNs, some of whom the minister personally phoned and indicated they probably should not talk to me because I might make the issue political. So I will try to make the issue as nonpolitical as possible to the Minister of Health.

The LPNs are very frustrated because, despite the government's recent conversion to the understanding that LPNs are an integral part of our health care system, the government and some of the government agencies have not given an outright commitment that LPNs are an integral part of the acute care sector and ought to have roles and functions and jobs and opportunities in our acute care hospitals. My question to the Minister of Health is: will he categorically today state that the government's policy is–as it is the government policy–to allow LPNs to function up to their capacity in the acute care hospitals of the province of Manitoba and the city of Winnipeg?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): The member for Kildonan, who I like to think usually tries to be accurate with his preamble, is not accurate today. I do not know whether he is just trying to play politics in terms of discussions that I had or did not have with any individuals. Those comments were absolutely wrong, I tell him, for which I would expect he should apologize or withdraw.

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We certainly are very committed to licensed practical nurses here in Manitoba. That is why one of the many things that we are doing is the expansion of the educational program through the Assiniboine Community College, through Misericordia Hospital, where last year there were 90 students coming into the program. This year, with the additional support of our government, we are now up to 190 students coming into our program.

I have also indicated very clearly that if there are licensed practical nurses who left the profession in the early '90s, for a number of reasons, the nurse retention and recruitment fund of $7 million is certainly available to them if they need some retraining, recertification, anything to bring them back into the system if that is their wish or desire. We certainly encourage them to do that, and licensed practical nurses have a very important role to play in our entire health services provision, whether it be our acute care facilities, our personal care home facilities or our home care services.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Will the minister, who did not make an outright commitment, which we are asking for, recognize that many, many LPNs are underutilized, working several jobs? Many are out of the system because of lack of training. Will the government commit to hire full-time LPNs in our acute care facilities? Very precise question, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): I think what the member recognizes is that decisions in terms of the staffing requirements are done at a combination of the individual facility level with the regional health authorities that are in place. I have already indicated very clearly to the member opposite that we believe licensed practical nurses have a role to play across the spectrum of health care in Manitoba, whether it be in our acute care facilities, whether it be in our personal care home facilities or whether it be in our Home Care program or other health care services.

They are certainly a key part of it. That is why we are committed to bringing more into the system through our educational programs. That is why we are committed to bringing more back into the profession through any recertification, any retraining. They are a very important part of our health care system. That is also one of the many reasons why we are also going to be introducing amendments to their act, The Licensed Practical Nurses Act, which I have referred to the member opposite that there will be some changes to that act, that we have worked with the profession itself to continue to identify the very important role that LPNs play in our health services in Manitoba.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health categorically commit today that the LPNs, who are underutilized, some are working several jobs, 11 of the 14 that were let go at Misericordia still do not have jobs, I am informed, and many, many others who require upgrading will be provided that prior to the government embarking on a massive foreign recruitment campaign of LPNs, that we will look to our LPNs who are underutilized and have been unappreciated in this jurisdiction?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated to the member opposite, the 1999 budget which they voted for includes $32.5 million to fill 650 nursing positions. We have discussed this in the Estimates process. Those positions are going to be filled from nurses of all types, whether it be LPN or the Bachelor of Nursing program and so on. We need 650 nurses into our system.

We are also going to fill them in a number of ways. We are going to fill them through issues like our educational program, whether it be our program for LPNs through the Assiniboine Community College or whether it be the Faculty of Nursing at the University of Manitoba. We are also going to fill them through our nurse recruitment and retention fund, the $7 million that we have set aside. We have also been working with all of the employers. We continue to see more permanent positions being created in our health care system, and there will be more and more permanent positions created in our health care system. That is something that nurses tell us is needed, and we support that and employers are doing just that.

Certainly, one piece of that total equation to bring 650 nurses into our system is immigration, which, again, I would imagine members opposite would also support as a part of the solution to bring more nurses into the system in Manitoba, which we all recognize we want to see done.

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Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, on Tuesday of this week the Minister of Agriculture stood before this House and said the record shows that Walter Malkowich "at all times lived up to full compliance of his lease requirements, was an exemplary lessor and, as such, was the qualified purchaser of the land." That is a quote.

This statement by the minister completely contradicts what the Ombudsman said. The Ombudsman concluded that Mr. Malkowich sold his cattle and his equipment, noted that Mr. Malkowich did not provide the department with all of the information required by the branch and said the sale was wrong.

Madam Speaker, I want to ask: why did this minister, through Order-in-Council and the government, permit the sale of nine quarters of land when in fact the lessee did not qualify? Who is telling the truth in this matter, the minister or the Ombudsman?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Interlake is taking selective quotations from what I said the other day. I specifically said and acknowledged and the department acknowledged that there was a period of time when the lessor of this land was not in full compliance of the lease. I also put on the record that for 23, 24 years of the time that he held the land, he was in full compliance and not a single complaint had been registered against him. Any examination of people leasing land shows from time to time lessors have that problem. It can be for reasons of a disease coming into a cattle herd where the entire herd is removed for a number of years. There can be economic reasons where a cattle producer or a rancher sells off a number of his cattle. Subsequently, the lessor was visited by the department and were satisfied that additional cattle were being purchased.

Mr. C. Evans: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister: under the regulations governing the sale of agricultural Crown land under Crown lease, the purpose of such sales is to assist–

Madam Speaker: Question, please.

Mr. C. Evans: –the growth of the agricultural industry through the sale of land. Can this minister tell the House how he could support this sale to an unqualified purchaser, a retired agricultural person, sold all his cattle, and in March of '94 advertised the same land that he applied for less than a year later to buy, to get rid of because he was retired, and I will table it.

Mr. Enns: Well, Madam Speaker, I firstly rise on a point of order.

The honourable member made a relatively serious allegation about who is telling the truth, and I refer you, Madam Speaker, and all members to page 1109 of the Hansard, May 11, where I clearly state: "Records show that he at all times lived up to full compliance of his lease requirements . . . except there was a period of time when, as a result of one family member leaving, he did not have sufficient cattle on the farm." I clearly acknowledge that there was a period in that–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Enns: That is not the impression that the honourable member for Interlake left, and I would ask him to withdraw that.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Interlake, on the same point of order.

Mr. C. Evans: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order.

The Ombudsman clearly stated in his letter that the lessor had sold his cattle, not as the minister says, that he had some troubles.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, we all in this House from time to time have issues on which there is a dispute over the facts. But it is incumbent upon all honourable members–and I think this is the point that is being made very strongly by the Minister of Agriculture with respect to the quotation from Hansard of the member for Interlake–that if members are quoting, they have an obligation in the interests of fairness and honesty to put the quote in the proper context and to quote it all.

It is very evident that the member for Interlake selectively chose part of the line and omitted the qualification to the statement that led the impression that the Minister of Agriculture has misled the House, which is clearly not what is on the record. The member for Interlake should be cautioned, when he is quoting, to make sure that he does quote accurately in the interests of honesty and fairness.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. We do not need any lectures from this minister and this government about honesty and fairness.

I would point out that we have raised numerous questions on this matter, and it is the minister and the government that continue to try and deflect from the fact that the Ombudsman said that the sale that was made was totally inappropriate. That was a comment that we had put on the record. It is a comment that this government has yet to acknowledge.

Not only was the member for the Interlake correct in raising these issues, he is correct in continuing to ask the Minister of Agriculture and this government to adopt fair practice when it comes to the disposal of sale of Crown land and not this kind of situation where we see a retired farmer purchasing land when we have evidence he was not in keeping–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members when either raising a point of order or speaking to a point of order to explicitly state the point of order that they feel has been violated and speak to that point only and not debate the potential issue at question.

I will take the matter raised by the honourable Minister of Agriculture under advisement. I will check the transcript from Hansard and report back to the Chamber.

Mr. C. Evans: Madam Speaker, the Ombudsman in his letter told it like it is.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Interlake was recognized for a supplementary question to which there should be no preamble. I would please ask the honourable member's compliance in posing the question now.

Mr. C. Evans: I want to ask the minister: why when the Ombudsman in his letter told it like it is, that the purchaser simply did not qualify when the sale went through, it was wrong to sell this land–how can this minister defend the action of himself, his department and the government by misleading the people of Manitoba?

Mr. Enns: I do not currently have the copy of the Ombudsman's letter before me, but I do recall it. The Ombudsman points out that there was a time, which I acknowledged, that Mr. Malkowich was not in compliance with his lease. The Ombudsman, in that letter, also acknowledges there was a lot of time when he was in compliance, Madam Speaker, and that is the end of the matter.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): We have raised some serious questions about this particular matter. We are still left with the situation, we have the Ombudsman making a very clear statement and we see the minister, and through his silence the Premier (Mr. Filmon), continuing to not recognize the very real concerns we have about not only this matter but the entire fairness of the way such matters are dealt with across the board, because we know many people who cannot get the same kind of treatment that this person got, the person that flipped land to Cubby Barrett.

That is why I would like to ask the Premier if the Premier will conduct a forensic audit, an investigation by the Auditor, not only into this matter but the many other examples where land has been given–by the way, many cases in which the Barrett family has been able to purchase land. We want to know whether our processes in this province are being treated fairly. Fairness for everyone, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Let us be very clear about the process, which I tried to explain yesterday. The Department of Agriculture–and this is not avoiding the issue–as such does not sell any land. The Department of Agriculture makes recommendations that then go to a land classification review which involves a number of departments.

If the land is subject to flooding, it is not available for sale. If there are other assets that are in the interest of the public good, like gravel deposits, the Department of Highways may put a caveat against and advise the land not be sold.

If there are specific wildlife, that is a very major reason why very often people requesting the purchase of Crown land do not get it because of particular wildlife interest. Currently, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) is correctly addressing the issue of the value of aspen, of hardwood, on a lot of Crown land that heretofore had no value until this government brought the economic opportunities for that operation into play.

So that is the process, and if the honourable member wants to open that to review, certainly there is no problem doing that.

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Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Premier again, because I mean it took us three and a half years to get to the bottom of what happened in the vote-rigging scandal in 1995. I want to ask the Premier, in this case, whether he will authorize this audit, given the obvious conflict we are in, in terms of the minister who made this decision, who is a close personal friend of Cubby Barrett, now defending this position. When will we get an audit to find out what is going on with this sale of Crown land in this province?

Mr. Enns: There was no land sold by this government, by this minister to a Mr. Cubby Barrett. There was land sold to a legitimate long-term 25-year lessor holder, and there is a deliberate attempt–you talk about smear campaign, you talk about red herrings, you talk about McCarthyism. There you have it across the floor.

Let us be clear about this. Land was sold to a legitimate lessor holder by the name of Walter Malkowich.

Mr. Ashton: Was that on a point of order, Madam Speaker, or on an answer to a question? Is that a further question?

Madam Speaker: I was not aware he was on a point of order. I assumed it was a response to the question. I did not hear the honourable member indicate he was up on a point of order.

An Honourable Member: I was rising on a point of order.

Madam Speaker: Pardon me?

An Honourable Member: On a point of order.

Madam Speaker: It was a point of order?

The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

Mr. Ashton: On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I take great offence to the minister's comments, and by the way, a minister whom I respect. But if the minister does not understand the obvious conflict and a situation here where he made the decision, his department made the decision where he is now dealing with an Ombudsman's report that says that that was not an appropriate position, where he indeed does have a very direct association with Mr. Barrett who, by the way, purchased that land within I believe eight months afterwards, when there have been many purchases by the Barrett family of Crown lands. If he does not understand that what we want is we want the Ombudsman, we want an objective report. That is no McCarthyite tactic. That is somebody I respect, the Minister of Agriculture, but he should not be involved in answering these kinds of questions. We need an independent audit of what has happened.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. The opposition House leader gets up, and you just listen to what he says and the logical inconsistencies. They are trying to accuse the minister, who admits his department made a decision which they believe was within the rules to sell property to someone who had worked that property and leased it for a quarter of a century, 25 years, and they by their own admission say eight months later he sells it to an individual who happened to own more land in the area, and somehow that is all linked to an impropriety.

Madam Speaker, there are huge leaps of logic. Clearly here members are out of order in making those kinds of assumptions.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on the same point of order.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On the same point of order. Madam Speaker, we asked twice to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to proceed with an audit and using a forensic auditor to follow the trail. Now that is the same thing we needed to do to deal with the allegations that we were accused of playing politics with that led to the findings in the Monnin inquiry. We had to follow the money in order to identify the vote-rigging allegations and conclusions. We are asking the Premier nothing more or nothing less than asking the Auditor to conduct a forensic audit on the money. Now that is all we are asking for–nothing more, nothing less. Let us get on with having the forensic audit.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Agriculture, I will take the matter under advisement to research Hansard and report back to the Chamber.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I will ask the Premier one more time: will the Premier do exactly what was referenced in the point of order by our Leader and conduct the kind of independent audit that we need of this to look at the role not only of the minister, not only of the eventual purchase by Mr. Barrett, but all the transactions, all the involvements of everyone in this particular case, including the flow of money on this purchase, because we want to ask this Premier to take some action to restore some confidence in the fairness of our sale of Crown lands in this province?

Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, once again allow me to simply say that the appropriate procedure was followed throughout, and I will invite any inquiry that anybody wishes to pursue.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, on Tuesday I asked the Premier for information in regard to polling and surveying. The Premier attempted to convey that this is an open government and earlier today in the Industry and Trade Estimates, we find that a loan, in essence, of $2 million and a good portion of that, $1.6 million has already been funneled over to the company, yet we do not know the company and the minister. His minister is not prepared to tell us what company this government is loaning money out to. Is this in fact the policy of this government to start giving out money and feeling that there is no obligation to release that sort of information?

Hon. Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As I suggested to the honourable member in committee, when we make these types of agreements, quite often there are negotiations between the government and the people involved. We ask and seek approval from both sides before we make a public announcement. I suggested to the honourable member at that time that when the agreement was made we would make the announcement.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I guess we will wait for the election.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question now.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I go to the Premier and I ask now how many polls and surveys were in fact done in the last six months, and how many of these have had their results released?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I will take that question as notice, but as the member knows, the one area of polling that has been publicized was that which was done in the lead-up to the preparation of the budget. It was released some time within the last month. That is the only one that, at this point, I have knowledge of. I will do investigations and bring back a response to the member.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, we look to the Premier to ask if he would be prepared to bring those results before the House by Monday.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, is there something magic about Monday?

Madam Speaker, I have indicated to him, when he asked a similar question earlier this week, that we do have a policy that provides for the timely release of that information. That policy I believe is 90 days, is the normal time for release, unless there are matters outstanding of policy decisions, which was the case with respect to the budget that, until the budget was made public, the polling was not released until after that. Based on an application to the Clerk of the Executive Council, that extension was granted. So that policy is in place and that policy will be enforced and implemented in the case of any other polling that may be outstanding.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions are directed to the Minister of Natural Resources. Could the minister advise the House what rationale he used when he recently appointed a board member to FFMC, rather than putting in a request that the position, as well as all other board members' positions, be elected by the fishermen, as was recommended by the central Canada's freshwater fisheries report of last year?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): My answer is no.

Mr. Lathlin: Okay, Madam Speaker. If he is not going to tell us the rationale that he used for appointing the board member, perhaps I could ask the minister then to tell us if he inquired or asked for this Manitoba board member, this newest board member, for a confirmation of reports that over $500,000 was wasted in the appointment of former M.P. Ron Fewchuk to the FFMC so that Jon Gerrard could run in the Selkirk-Interlake riding in 1997.

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, first of all, perhaps my first answer seemed abrupt. I misunderstood the question, and my answer in fact is that we chose someone who was of broad knowledge in the fishery and in fact was reappointed from his previous appointment on that board. On the second answer, however, I think that we are equally concerned about the fact that there was an appointment made recently and now reversed whereby the appointment seemed to follow more of a political rather than an experience and expertise background.

Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, I am glad that the minister shares my concern about that appointment, the way it was made, and also the musical chairs that have been happening at FFMC. So, therefore, in that vein, could I ask the minister then, if he is that concerned, that that $500,000 expenditure be sent to the federal Liberals for payment rather than being paid for by the fishermen of Manitoba?

Mr. Cummings: Well, Madam Speaker, I think Manitobans should be comforted. We have considerable harmony in the House.

An Honourable Member: First it is the budget.

Mr. Cummings: First it is the budget, and now it is the fisheries.

Madam Speaker, I share the concern of the member inasmuch as the efforts of Freshwater Fish need to be made on behalf of the best interests of the fishermen in this province and across western Canada. They, in fact, have and have had–on my behalf, I have sent forward numerous concerns about the manner of the appointment of the chair. The Province of Manitoba has, by the constitution of the Freshwater Fish, responsibility to appoint a person to the board, and that is what I did on behalf of this administration, chose someone to represent us on that board.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I would like to quote from a May 4 letter to the Minister of Health, a letter that I will table, sent by a constituent of the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who says, and I quote: "All in all"–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

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Ms. Barrett: The letter states, and I quote: "All in all, my week stay at the Grace was the worst time in all my 41 years on this earth. I hope never to have to return."

These are the words of a woman who spent almost four days in the hallway of the Grace Hospital emergency room. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) what he has to say to this woman and the thousands of other patients, families and staff of hospitals in Manitoba who have been forced to live and sometimes to die in the brave new world that this government has given us of hallway medicine and frozen food.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, again, we have discussed this issue and other health issues on many occasions. Certainly the member for Wellington is well aware of some of the challenges we face like other provinces right across Canada, the significant funding reductions from the federal government, the federal Liberal government. In fact, her former colleague the member of Parliament, former Health critic, Judy Wasylycia-Leis, on many occasions has raised that very important issue. During all of that time here in Manitoba we backfilled every cent that the federal government took out of health care in Manitoba and still put more money into health care. In fact, in this budget that they voted for, we have increased funding by $194 million with the very objective about the issue that she has raised here today, that we continue to make improvements to reduce having any people in hallways in our hospitals. That is something that is unacceptable to us. With the resources, with the plan we have in place, we will eliminate having that happen.

Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, would the Premier (Mr. Filmon) explain the outcome of his government's policies where hospital patients, as Ms. Morrice in her letter states, have to urinate and defecate under the covers in public, where people lie under cold vents, cold air vents for days at a time, and where, during her stay, there were between 14 and 17 stretchers in the hallway of Grace Hospital emergency every single day? Will he explain where that comes from?

Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, the whole issue of people in hallways obviously was at a level back during the peak of the flu season that was absolutely unacceptable. We have said on many occasions, having people in hallways in our hospitals is something that is unacceptable to our government, and that is why we are taking a number of steps to eliminate having that happen. That is why we are putting in place now over 850 net new personal care home beds. That is why we are spending $147 million on our Home Care program in the province of Manitoba. That is why we have a bed co-ordination unit to co-ordinate the best use of our beds right across our hospital system here in the city of Winnipeg and across Manitoba, a number of initiatives to be sure that these kinds of things do not happen.

I remind the member of the many thousands of people who go through our hospital system and receive absolutely outstanding care and service, and that is a tribute and a compliment to our nurses, our doctors, our health care aides and everybody who works in providing quality health care to all citizens in the province of Manitoba.

Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, would the Minister of Health or the Premier respond to Ms. Morrice's statement, and I quote, which says: "Your staff, however, are wonderful; although I don't believe that you know it. Many could not look me in the eye because they felt so bad about having me lay in the hall while I received my much needed treatment."

How can the Minister of Health stand in his place and say that the health care system is fine in the province of Manitoba when this is not an unusual circumstance?

Mr. Stefanson: We are doing more procedures through our health care system where our volumes are up in terms of acute care services and so on, Madam Speaker. We have significantly reduced waiting lists for a whole range of diagnostic tests from CT scans to echocardiograms and so on.

So, again, in terms of the total levels of service in the province of Manitoba, they are of a very high quality. I have said on many occasions, one of the issues that we are addressing is that we find it unacceptable to have people spend any time in a hallway in our hospital system. Those numbers have come down significantly, and with the plan and the resources that we have in place, Madam Speaker, that will be eliminated.

Again, I just ask the member opposite to acknowledge many of the challenges that have had to be faced, challenges like her own colleague points out, having $260 million less every single solitary year for health care services in the province of Manitoba. During that period, this government was backfilling that entire amount and still putting more money into health care. Today, we are spending $800 million more than we spent 11 years ago, a 60 percent increase, and I am sure that is one of the many reasons that those people opposite chose to vote for and support the 1999 budget of our government because of $194 million more for health care services in Manitoba.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. This week, we were perilously close to losing another Manitoban to our record robbery threat. This time it was a security guard, Trevor Tillett, who chased two suspects, I understand, and almost got struck by a car and was shot at, but fortunately the hand gun, which was loaded, malfunctioned.

I ask the minister if he can explain, with a quarter of all security guards getting no training whatsoever in this province and 92 percent getting one day or less training, why has this government not mandated training and safety standards for security guards as we have demanded, as the industry has demanded, as public and guard safety demands?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am certainly in touch with the Winnipeg Police Service and other police services in the province of Manitoba. I am advised that gang activity, especially in respect of violent gang activity, is substantially down in 1998, and I want to commend the Winnipeg Police Service and the RCMP. That addresses the preamble that the member had.

The second issue, in respect of the training of the security guards, is an issue that the member knows that my department is studying. At present there are only two other provinces who have programs in various degrees of success, and there are some serious concerns about those particular programs. When we implement a program, we wish to do it right, and we think we are on the right track in implementing a program.

I also understand in this specific case, if what I read in the paper is correct, the security guard specifically disobeyed the training that he had received by the employer.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister who should know, as we understand, that this particular guard had about a one-day information session three years ago–would he explain, if he wants to do it right, why is he studying this matter? He has been lobbied for five years; they have been dithering for three and a half years. Why is he putting at risk public and guard safety in Manitoba?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I understand it, in respect to the specific training that this guard received, he did not comply with the company's specific training. In respect to the issue that the member has raised, there is great debate within the community, not only among employers but others in the community, as to what type of training should be given and how standardized that can become, and that is something that we are working very diligently on. I know that the other two provinces that have that in effect are finding some serious difficulties which may in fact even contribute more to the problem, and I want to avoid that.

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Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.