Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon eight Grade 9 students from St. George School under the direction of Ms. Julie Stewart. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Render).

Also, thirteen Grades 7 to 9 students from Parkland Christian School under the direction of Mr. Raymond Isaac. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach).

We have eighteen Grades 4 and 5 students from Daerwood School under the direction of Ms. Maria Turkitch. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar).

We also have twenty-six Grade 5 students from St. Alphonsus School under the direction of Ms. Jean Gilbert. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in this year's budget, a sum of $12 million has been allocated for the income assistance program in Agriculture for a $62-million two-year program. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): is this low amount, relative to a two-year program, a reflection of the complexity that producers are facing in accessing this program, or is it a reflection of the need, and what is the impact on next year's expenditures in the budget?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, the $12 million noted in the budget is the figure that was provided to us in Agriculture by Ottawa as being in the range of $12 million to $24 million that may be required in the first year of this two-year program. We have every indication to believe that that will be ample. In fact, I can report to the House, to date, some 40-45 applications have been made. Only three applications have been approved. That explains the figure in the budget.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, then it appears that there will be $50 million required in next year's expenditures, and we note that the expenditures have gone up, unlike this year, over $300 million in this budget, the nonelection year budget, it has gone up .3 percent in next year's budget. I would like to ask the Premier: what will be the impact of, notwithstanding Agriculture, a decline in expenditures next year on health and education?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as has been indicated, there is a variety of different issues of nonrecurring expenditures in this year's Estimates. Some of them include, I believe, about $55 million worth of capital. There are a number of other areas of decline in the expenditures, and we believe that there will be sufficient funding available to meet our needs and our expectations in government. We believe that the continued growth of the economy which we are committed to, which most economic forecasters are predicting, will provide us with the kind of level of support that we need for all the expenditures contained and projected.

Mr. Doer: Well, Madam Speaker, one would assume that the growth numbers were built into the projections for the 2000-2001 budget. When we asked a similar question in 1995 about a freeze in expenditures into the '96 year, the Premier promised and then he further advertised that there would be no cuts in health, either on the capital side or the operating side. In 1995 he froze the capital; in 1996 he cut $40 million out of health operating revenues. With the agricultural revenues backended into next year, or the expenditures backended into the second year, where is the government planning on cutting? Why should Manitobans not believe that they are just going to go through the same pattern of cutting after an election campaign, based on expenditures in their own budget?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, certainly the Conference Board of Canada's reflections on future year growth is very positive. The economy will continue to grow in Canada and in Manitoba. We have been ahead of the national economy in the last three budgets.

As has been indicated, there are certain one-time expenditures that will fall away, things to do with capital. Much of the spending out of the Stabilization Fund has been one-time funding, and I can assure the member opposite that our commitment to health care and education is very strong and will continue.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, when the farm aid package was announced, we hoped that farmers would receive much-needed assistance; however, everything has been coming along very slowly and no money has flowed yet and in fact will not for several weeks. I am also told that Manitoba farmers will only get 60 percent of their money when they qualify because Manitoba has not signed a final agreement.

Will the Minister of Agriculture indicate whether he has signed the final agreement in Ottawa and whether Manitoba farmers will get their full amount that they qualify for, or will they only get the Ottawa amount in their first cheque?

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Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I can indicate to the honourable member that it was only this past week that Ottawa finally forwarded the documentation for the signing of the AIDA agreement.

I can also indicate to the honourable member that that agreement was signed today, and it will be fast-couriered back to Ottawa. It would be my hope, certainly expectation, that applicants will receive full funding. My understanding is that only three applications were approved and funding flowed, that we are reduced to that amount that the honourable member refers to because of the lack of the signed agreement. That paperwork has all now been done.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister: given that when this program was announced it was anticipated it would trigger $93 million coming from Ottawa and given that this government has only allocated $12 million in this year, is the government anticipating that there will be a similar reduction in the amount of money that is going to flow to Manitoba farmers, that in fact they will get much less than they anticipated, and they will not receive the assistance that they need for this spring's seeding?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I hesitate to speculate on any of these amounts. The member knows full well the program is income tax based. The income tax forms are just now–well, they should have been filed a few days ago. But the level of application of this program will not be known for another month or two.

What this government did do and what I am very pleased to acknowledge is, with the support of the government on this side, that the emergency recovery program has been fully subscribed, over $17 million in actual cash has flowed to farmers in need. I can report to honourable members, in anticipation of favourable response from my colleagues, that Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation has indicated that there will likely be an extension of that program to surpass the $25 million that was announced back in January.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister: given that there is going to be a new farm safety net agreement signed this year and given that we still do not have a long-term disaster assistance program, will he assure this House that he will work with other western provinces, with farm organizations and members of the opposition, in fact, to ensure that we develop a long-term safety net program that will meet the needs of Manitoba farmers better than the AIDA program is meeting those needs right now?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, the honourable member is absolutely correct. We are very concerned about the future of the long-term safety net programs. This will be the major subject of discussion in Prince Albert when ministers of Agriculture meet in July, the first part of July. I have invited representatives from the Manitoba agriculture Keystone organization to help with the position that I believe is necessary for Manitoba to put forward.

I am very concerned, and I can indicate to the House that Saskatchewan shares that concern with Manitoba that we move away from the risk program that currently is in place that enables us to provide the enhanced basic crop insurance to our producers to one that is more favourable to an income-based program. That causes us a lot of concern in Manitoba, and I will be looking for all the support I can get from different jurisdictions. Indeed, I will include the honourable members from the opposition in trying to convince Ottawa that this is a very important matter to the farmers of Manitoba.

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Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. The minister told the House just last week that his deputy had, to use his words, various conversations with Mr. Doust who is conducting the outside review of allegations of criminal wrongdoing in the Filmon Conservatives vote-rigging scandal, but the minister failed to mention that there was also correspondence and that his deputy got on a jet and flew to Vancouver to meet with Mr. Doust. Since even the terms of reference acknowledge the importance or the value of–I quote the words–"fully transparent process, and public accountability," my question to the minister is: would he respect these words and now table in this House the full record of all oral and written communications between his department, the Department of Justice, and Mr. Doust?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, this member is not interested in getting to the bottom of this particular issue. He is attempting to make an issue out of a matter that is a particularly sensitive, legal issue. My practice is not to be involved in any prosecution. I receive briefings on prosecutions, but I do not give directions on prosecutions.

In this particular case, not only did I not give any directions in respect of the prosecution, there was a further step added to remove the decision-making process from our department by the appointment of a special counsel. It is within the prerogative of special counsel to determine the extent to which he feels that information should be released to the public in this very sensitive matter.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Well, since the minister relies so much on his argument that he cannot be involved and cannot, as he says, give directions, why do the terms of reference cobbled together for last Friday make Mr. Doust's opinion, and I quote from the terms of reference: "subject only to receiving direction from the Attorney General."

Does the minister think that is appropriate?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the public is not fooled when he fails to quote what in fact it says. It says: "subject only to receiving direction from the Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General, which direction if given will forthwith be made public."

This is the practice in British Columbia which the counsel felt was appropriate to have in the terms of reference. The other point is the member, as a lawyer, knows that the Attorney General cannot abdicate the legal responsibility that is set out in the Criminal Code. So this indicates that, yes, the Attorney General has the ultimate legal authority, but the practice in this province is that the Attorney General does not give directions on prosecutions.

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Mr. Mackintosh: The obvious question to the minister is: why is that in the terms of reference then specifically giving power to the Attorney General to give direction to Mr. Doust? Why is that in here, and will he commit today–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I understand in British Columbia it is in fact set out in legislation that that always be placed in there. In respect of this particular issue, the member knows that, as the Attorney General, I cannot abdicate my legal or constitutional responsibility and this reflects what he well knows and in so attempting to mislead this House by saying that there is something untoward about this.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, again, my questions refer back to the minister's statement. My questions are for the Premier. The Premier had an opportunity to fly in the area where the forest fires were burning yesterday in southeastern Manitoba and also in the Island Lake area. The fires have caused tremendous damage, not only the physical damage, including the losses of homes and equipment and in some cases livelihoods–people earn a living by trapping in some areas of the province. The Premier will know that there are many secondary victims who are experiencing problems as a result of the fires that Manitobans have experienced, specifically the hydro and phone lines at Berens River, Bloodvein, Poplar River, Paungassi and Little Grand Rapids. All these communities were without power for a period of time. Given the fact that many of these people live on very low incomes, I would like to ask the Premier if he will commit his government to providing emergency assistance or providing emergency aid to these communities.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I would like to know a little bit more about the effects and the circumstances. We did not get up into that area yesterday, as the member may know. We got as far north as Manigotagan, Seymourville, Hollow Water and Bissett. We would like to learn more of the information that he is providing as to what specifically those costs in effect are, and then perhaps I can sit down with the minister responsible for EMO and take a look at guidelines and circumstances. We would like to deal fairly and knowledgeably with the circumstances, and I would have to have more information to do so.

Mr. Robinson: When the fires began on Saturday, very simply the power lines burnt as well, therefore causing the land-line system to those communities that I mentioned to go without power since Saturday until late last night. Consequently, people buy food for a period of one month. I am asking the Premier if he will investigate and also make an effort to have EMO officials travel to these communities to make an assessment for themselves.

Mr. Filmon: I would be happy to do that, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): As the Premier pointed out, he did not have an opportunity to go to the Island Lake area yesterday. However, there have been people who have been suffering there due to losses. I would like to ask the Premier if he would also provide EMO officials to be made available to talk with people in the Island Lake area.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I would be happy to do that, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. The Provincial Auditor has in the past, as we have referred to in the past, expressed concerns with the unfunded pension liability and the accounting practices of this particular government. My question to the Minister of Finance is: can the minister give the House an indication in terms of what sorts of actual numbers we are looking at in terms of that pension liability fund?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Certainly we will get into that sort of detail once we get into the Estimates process. I can tell the member that certainly we are responsible for those pensions and do account for them within our budget on a regular basis. We have also worked very closely and carefully with the Auditor to narrow some of the scope of the differences that he has cited regarding the way that we report this.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, it is good to see the government actually accept responsibility for the pension liability. One would expect that. The question to the Minister of Finance: can he convey to this House or does he not have any idea in terms of what the accumulated total of that pension liability is?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, that information is in the Public Accounts that I tabled in this House not too many days ago, and we have accounted for these pension liabilities in the same manner as the previous government did. We are working with the Auditor to again narrow the differences in the way we reflect this.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question to the Minister of Finance: is it the intention of this government at some future time–future being the next budget, whenever it might come–to incorporate the pension liabilities into the budget which would make it compliant with what the Provincial Auditor is recommending?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, certainly when I bring the next budget, we will–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As I bring future budgets to the House, we will incorporate many of the ideas that the Auditor has discussed with our department. I would refer the member for Inkster to Volume 3 where all of that information is contained.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): My questions are for the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. [interjection] Beginning with the 1989 Urban Strategy Report that was presented in this House in 1989–and to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), this is a real whale of a tale because that is all there was. Would this minister tell the House: how much has this provincial government spent on consultations, reports, meetings, consultants to develop an Urban Aboriginal Strategy since 1989?

Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, it sounds like the kind of question that could be addressed in Estimates in some detail, and we will of course gather together that kind of information. I am very proud to say that I just left a press conference at the Aboriginal Centre announcing the Urban Aboriginal Strategy.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Madam Speaker, could the same minister explain why, after 11 years, the new pre-election Urban Aboriginal Strategy that he just mentioned is that it will continue consultations, develop an implementation plan and work to establish specific objectives–nothing concrete?

Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): I am very pleased to address that kind of question that was asked during the press conference by members of the media. I guess that the honourable member for Point Douglas has seen fit to ask the same question the same way the reporter did. The surprise that I have is the question is asked in that way by the honourable member for Point Douglas.

What we have respected with a great deal of appreciation is the importance of going about putting detailed strategy together on a blank sheet of paper with the members of the aboriginal community and other partners. For us to paternalistically come forward and in effect tell the people of the urban aboriginal community what we are going to do to them or for them or with them would be highly inappropriate, and the approach, the new approach, of which I am very proud and the government has mandated, is an approach which respects the views, the opinions and the aspirations of aboriginal people in the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba.

Mr. Hickes: In how many of the previous consultations was this government told that cutting friendship centres, Access, BUNTEP, New Careers, the MMF, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs funding were real progressive acts and that is the true way of building partnerships? How many people told you that?

Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, again, I am very pleased to respond to that question from the honourable member for Point Douglas because it does distinguish the approach of the members opposite from the New Democratic Party who choose to fund political organizations and therefore believe that they are going to get support, and that is why some of the funding was discontinued for some of those organizations in a core way, like AMC and MMF who are definitely political organizations in the way they operate. With respect to the other bodies, there will be an announcement tomorrow in relation to friendship centres, which is the kind of approach this government takes in relation to that wonderful friendship centre movement which makes immense contributions in nonpolitical ways for aboriginal people in the province of Manitoba.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, a couple of questions were taken as notice on my behalf yesterday, and I would like to return with some information about those questions, particularly the question about whether or not sufficient resources had been available to fight the fire that has been the topic of conversation over the last week.

The situation has been that in the Manigotagan area alone yesterday we had 70 pieces of heavy equipment working, 249 personnel on the ground, nine helicopters, four water bombers and two other spotter aircraft. In total, we have 79 pieces of heavy equipment, 552 personnel on the ground, 24 helicopters, 11 water bombers and four other spotting planes that were in use, along with all of the equipment and labour of the volunteers. The efforts out there were downright heroic, given the devastating weather that we had on the weekend, and I want to point out that the resources have been in place. It took the co-operation of weather to bring us to a more favourable situation today.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Every year, Madam Speaker, in this House I have had occasion and cause to raise the issue of waiting lists at community colleges. Today the waiting lists at the largest community college, Red River, are 1,500 students. Last year, when I raised it, there were 800 students. I would like to ask the minister to confirm that this increase in the inability of the community colleges to meet the needs of students is a direct result of those 9 percent cuts of each of the last two years to the post-secondary education area, $22 million each year gone from post-secondary education. Is there any cause that the minister sees?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Waiting lists at our community colleges are occasioned by the tremendous growth in our economy here in Manitoba, occasioned by the work of this government in partnership with the marketplace, Madam Speaker. This is good news, not bad news.

Now the other side of that, of course, is do we accept the challenge. The answer is a resounding yes. There is $4 million this year alone for the college growth fund in the budget announced recently by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), and we look forward to the support of the honourable member opposite for that initiative.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, it is not good news to those 1,500 families on the waiting list.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley was recognized for a supplementary question.

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Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Can the minister explain why the major government response to the Roblin commission, and now six years ago, to double the number of students and double the programs in community colleges, has been to consistently cut, year after year, 9 percent of the budget of post-secondary education, $22 million every year?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Well, the honourable member's statement about the $22 million is just totally erroneous, Madam Speaker. I remind the honourable member that the colleges and universities have in their budgets the replacement $22 million for that amount that she refers to.

But again I remind the honourable member that at this particular time of year you have all kinds of people registering. I have a daughter who is in that situation exactly. We do not know yet, and other students across Manitoba do not know whether they are going to qualify for the courses they are applying for, whether they have applied for more than one course and waiting to see which course they might be successful at.

So I think the honourable member is being a little bit misleading with the numbers that she is bringing forward. Of course, this does not help students out there for the honourable member to come in here and do that.

But it is expected that the $4-million college growth fund established will indeed put one thousand students at their desks to work in their studies, to help take advantage of the tremendous opportunities that are being made available, thanks to the work of our private sector in partnership with this Filmon administration.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, would the minister, who clearly has not spoken to any of the institutions about the impact of those cuts, tell us whether he has any reports or whether he has requested any reports from the Council on Post-Secondary Education of the impact of rising fees, of the loan burden for young graduates, and does he have any plan for the long-term development of programs at community colleges, or are we going to see after the election another 9 percent cut, another $22 million gone?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the honourable member is wrong again on pretty well every account in the indictment that she has laid before the House today.

I do, indeed, meet with and talk with college and university personnel. I have regular meetings with the chair of the Council on Post-Secondary Education–having one this afternoon as a matter of fact–to discuss the various issues of concern in post-secondary education, the various opportunities that we should be looking at.

Rather than simply react all the time, I think it is a better idea to get ahead of the trends in our marketplace. That is exactly what the Roblin commission suggested should be done with the creation of the Council on Post-Secondary Education. We are doing this with the governance of our colleges, which we are finding are very responsive to market needs out there in our economy.

So, unfortunately, the honourable member just does not get it. We have indeed a very proactive Council on Post-Secondary Education, working in a very good partnership with the colleges and universities.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, after 11 years in government, the April 6 throne speech said that we know many of our neighbourhoods, particularly in the centre, have unacceptable levels of decay and decline. Even though the throne speech mentioned this, there is nothing in the budget to address this, and there was certainly nothing as part of the so-called aboriginal strategy to address these problems.

I want to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing if he supports some of the specific proposals outlined by the city, for example, to amend the Manitoba Building Code to make conversions of heritage buildings more affordable?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Firstly, I think that it is commendable that the City of Winnipeg and the administration, the council and the mayor, are looking at some innovative ways to regenerate and revitalize the downtown area of the city of Winnipeg. We have always been very supportive of the City of Winnipeg in not only our funding but the directions that they take in wanting to make changes, whether it is a zoning variance or things that we can work with.

We would look forward to working with the City of Winnipeg if they are looking at ways to make things easier for the development of the downtown. It does require legislative change. We are willing to pursue these things as they come forward by the City Council. At this particular time, we have not had this type of proposal, but we would look favourably upon any type of proposal that would help the taxpayers of Winnipeg to lessen the burden.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I would like to ask the same minister: will there be specific components of your government's Take Back the Streets program to address housing affordability and renovation? Where is this shown in this year's budget?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): One of the greatest assets that Winnipeg has is the various community groups and the community organizations that have come forth to look at the revitalization and the regeneration of growth not only in the inner city of Winnipeg but throughout Winnipeg.

Our government has committed, through the Take Back the Streets program, to work with these neighbourhood groups, these organizations to build upon those strengths, to look at the assets of where changes can come about. I am very optimistic that there are these types of resources out there and that our government is willing to sit down and work with them. I think that Winnipeg is coming to a lot of changes, and we will be part of those changes.

Ms. Cerilli: Community groups that the member is referring to want to know what is this Take Back the Streets program, and will there be a housing renovation component to it? Where is the budget line for this program?

Mr. Reimer: One of the directions of Take Back the Streets is to work within the communities and work with communities to get feedback. The member for Radisson would rather see the government come down with a heavy hand of direction and force the people to have them change.

What we are willing to do is work with these groups, look at the directions, look at the priorities, look at the ways they feel that they would like to take back the communities that they are part of. The member for Radisson would rather have the heavy hand of government take control, be the directive, be an end-all to all decision making. We believe that the best way is to work with these groups. The directions and the emphasis will come about with co-operation and working.

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Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I would like to ask a question to the Minister of Environment. For more than six years the Saskatchewan government has been trying to get this province to put deposits on pop cans, something that this government still refuses to do. Since Saskatchewan has been paying roughly $1.5 million a year for Manitoba cans, I would like to ask the minister why she will not be more responsible.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): I thank my honourable friend for that question. It has been a long time since that member and I had a chance to exchange questions and answers. It brings back old memories.

An Honourable Member: What kinds of memories would those be, Linda?

Mrs. McIntosh: Good memories.

An Honourable Member: And those would be good memories or bad memories?

Mrs. McIntosh: They would be absolutely good memories, yes.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Environment, to complete her response.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, we do take a look at other provinces' activities. We look at Saskatchewan, we look around Canada, and we also consult very heavily with people here in Manitoba. We put in place programs in Manitoba that give us a very good return on waste products and we have a number of them, better than most provinces in many areas where we have waste products, whether they be beverage containers, pesticide containers, hazardous waste or oil, all of those things that are being disposed of, recycled or re-used in appropriate ways in great abundance in Manitoba, better than in other provinces. We have a broader-based programming, and I will be pleased to answer more questions if the member wishes to ask them.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Well, Manitobans are trucking carloads of cans to Saskatchewan right now while this minister does nothing. I would like to ask the minister: does not the sheer number of Manitoba cans turned in to Saskatchewan point out to this minister that Manitobans do want a recycling program?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, and I am not accepting any of the preamble as being totally accurate. I would indicate that, as I said in my first answer, Manitoba's record of reclaiming, recycling, re-using is better than most provinces. If you want to do a straight comparison, Manitoba to Saskatchewan, I would be pleased to bring back statistics on those various articles for him and table them in the House for his information. I think that he would see right across the board in our broader-based programming, for example, 95 percent of Manitobans have access to recycling, which is really much better than other provinces. In some cases, we have programs that are not even available in other provinces at all, so I thank the member for his question, but I do not accept his preamble as totally accurate.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.