Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today His Excellency Volodymr Khandogiy, Ambassador of Ukraine to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Also, seated in the public gallery this afternoon, we have twenty-six Grades 7 to 9 students from John Pritchard School under the direction of Ms. Joan Duerksen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

And, 65 élP ves [students] from Kelvin High School, École Kelvin, sous la direction de [under the direction of] Ms. Katherine Abra. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale).

And additionally, we have thirty-seven Grade 9 students from West Kildonan Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Loren Reichert and Ms. Barbara Tascona. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has received a copy of a letter from the Royal Canadian Legion president, talking about the lack of quality of the food at Deer Lodge hospital, and he states to the Premier: we condemn the mistreatment of our veterans with this frozen food introduced by the members opposite into our urban hospitals.

Comments of the president of the legion are very consistent with other comments we have received over a number of months from our constituents and members of the community. Madam Speaker, can the Premier advise this Chamber whether he still thinks this frozen food is a good idea for Manitoba, and will he table the contract and the business plan which has not been tabled in this Chamber in the past?

* (1340)

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, there is an organization called the Urban Shared Services Corporation which is made up of the nine hospitals here in the city of Winnipeg which is the corporation responsible for the delivery of the food services. Certainly the objective throughout all of this is to provide quality food to people in our health care facilities. To date there are seven facilities that have made the shift to the new food service system which basically precludes the need to invest capital dollars in many of the hospitals. Obviously, through economies of scale, by preparing the food at one site, you can prepare it more efficiently, leaving more resources for other health care needs in the system.

So certainly the objective is an appropriate one. There continually have been improvements made in terms of accessing more and more and more of that food right here in Manitoba. A hundred percent of the food is accessed through companies located in Manitoba; I believe 50 percent to 60 percent is actually produced in Manitoba. But certainly the objective throughout all of that is to work to provide quality food to people in our health care facilities.

In terms of the specific final part of his question about the contracts and the business plans, I will certainly look into that issue and get back to the member.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have been promised the business plan and the contracts a number of times past, and obviously the government has something to hide by not producing those to the people of this province. Obviously the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is not very confident of this new program he has introduced because he refuses to defend it in this Chamber today. I cannot blame him, because the legion goes on to say that it is time that this government and this Premier admit that they made a mistake, and I agree with the president of the Royal Canadian Legion.

Madam Speaker, the government says they are going to get economies of scale in their answer, yet in Freedom of Information documents that we have received, we understand that the Department of Health has no way of estimating the cost per meal of the new frozen food plan versus the existing health care kitchen cost for food.

So, Madam Speaker, how are we going to know that the government is telling us the truth when we have had misinformation in the past about the cost of privatization when this minister was the minister responsible for Treasury Board dealing with home care?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I did indicate to the member I am prepared to look into the issue of the business plan and the contracts that he has referred to. Certainly it is easy to quantify the issue of capital costs, and I think the member should be somewhat familiar with some of our health care facilities, hoping he has had an opportunity to be in some on occasion in the last weeks and months to hear from people in the system. He could see that some of our facilities would need capital investments to provide food services. Obviously, this reduces the need for those capital investments by doing it at one facility instead of at nine facilities throughout Winnipeg. That makes pretty basic financial sense that I am sure even the Leader of the Opposition could understand. Again, by providing the services at one central location, there can be some economies of scale through doing it in that kind of a fashion.

I have indicated a willingness to the Leader to review the issue of the ability to provide the business plans and other information on this issue, but certainly the concepts of what is being done with the objective of providing quality food is the right thing to do, that we can free up resources to leave them in the health care system to provide other services to patients here in Manitoba.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): That is the priority of the Conservative government, to spend $20 million to give war veterans food that they are asking the government to change and without any business plan, without any tabling of contracts, without any information on per cost of meals. The quality of the food on this plan is terrible, according to the war veterans, Madam Speaker, and the government cannot justify again another ideological decision on the basis of facts.

Madam Speaker, are there any hospitals presently in Winnipeg paying money for this frozen food without receiving any meals?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): First of all, Madam Speaker, on the issue of the quality that the member refers to and refers to again in this final question, there continues to be surveys with people in our facilities and again, the response to those continues to show more and more approval of the kind of food that is being provided. That is a fundamental objective of the USSC and certainly supported by our government, is to provide food that has appropriate nutrition and is of a reasonable quality in our health care facilities. So that is a very important part of the whole change to one consolidated food services system.

In terms of the final part of the member's question, I will again undertake to provide him with that information. There are two facilities that are not participating in the Urban Shared Services Corporation at this particular point in time. Those are St. Boniface and the Health Sciences Centre. I understand that the primary reason is there are some minor improvements that need to be done in those facilities to deal with the adjustments. Certainly the other fundamental point is the one that the member himself is raising, that before Urban Shared Services takes another step, they want to be absolutely certain that the quality of food continues to be acceptable and of appropriate nutrition.

I should point out for the benefit of the member opposite that in light of some of the concerns at Deer Lodge, there have been some changes there. In the case of Deer Lodge, they now provide a full dining service of which 190 residents began receiving. So again, the concerns of residents are being addressed in an appropriate fashion to continue to provide quality food.

* (1345)

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, one of the questions Manitobans are asking is how many Tory ministers are being asked for information before one of them gives us the straight goods. A simple question: will he table the contract and will he confirm that Joe Sheil, his appointed manager in Toronto, last week confirmed that two hospitals in Winnipeg are paying for services they do not receive in the amount of at least $50,000 per month, that this has been going on since last August? Will he simply table the contract as he, his predecessor and his Premier (Mr. Filmon) should do?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, I think what members opposite miss here is this Urban Shared Services Corporation is an organization of the nine hospitals themselves. The members of the corporation are the CEOs of those nine hospitals, and as I have indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), there are two facilities that are not on the new food system as yet. There are some issues that need to be addressed relative to that, and I think everybody wants to be absolutely certain that the quality of food is absolutely appropriate when those two facilities become a part of the system.

I have indicated to the Leader of the Opposition an undertaking to look at the issue of the contracts and the business plan as to whether or not there are any reasons that that information cannot be provided. I have outlined for him the nature of the corporation, the nature of the structure. I have also indicated a willingness to look into that issue in terms of the ability to provide him with the information he asked for here today.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister simply confirm that St. Boniface Hospital and Health Sciences Centre between them have paid more than a million dollars already for access to a system they cannot get access to because the renovations were not done, they were not planned, they are far more costly than were ever thought of when they first started this nonsense plan, and will he simply tell us why Manitobans should be paying for access to a facility that they cannot get access to? Would he build a house and undertake to pay a mortgage before the house was ready?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood does what he always does. He asks a question, and he does not listen to the answer.

I have indicated to him very clearly that the USSC is an organization. It is not some mysterious organization. It is owned by the nine hospitals themselves. It is obviously in their best interest both to utilize that facility and to make sure that that facility provides quality food and provides it in as efficient and effective fashion as it can. They support the objective of investing in one capital facility instead of in nine facilities. They support the objectives of the economy of scale of doing food preparation in one location, as opposed to nine locations.

They support the key and important point of providing quality, nutritional food for Manitobans, and they continue to work to improve that. The surveys of patients continue to show that the response continues to improve in terms of the patient response to the quality of food, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister explain to the House why a nonprofit corporation owned by eight nonprofit corporations directly under the management of the WHA, full of Tory appointees but publicly appointed at least, can he explain why he would not table that contract today, why he will not tell us what a meal costs from that facility? What is so secret about the cost of meals?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, again, I guess the question must have been prepared in advance, which was something indicated by one of their colleagues that that is how everything is done in Question Period for them. He is asking the same question that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) asked, and I said to the Leader of the Opposition that I am prepared to review that issue in terms of the release of the contract and the release of the business plan. So he is asking the same question for the second or third time, and he is getting the same answer.

* (1350)

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I have some questions for the Premier.

On the 17th of February the Supreme Court of Canada awarded custody of a four-year-old First Nations child from Swan Lake in Manitoba to adoptive grandparents in Connecticut on the basis of wealth. This was a case that was based entirely on economics. Despite this child being raised by his biological grandfather, who is from the Sagkeeng First Nation--and this boy has been with his grandfather since he was eight months old--Madam Speaker, through you, I would like to ask the Premier—I have written him two letters on the 26th of February and also on March 26 which I would like to table--what he is prepared to do about this very serious issue.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I understand the concerns of the member opposite. In the investigations that I have done and the questions that I have raised, I am informed that there is no appeal to a Supreme Court decision.

With respect to our own policies here, it appears as though, as well, that the process here was followed as is laid out. Mind you, the individual who was, of course, the one adopted, that process took place many, many years ago prior to our government. We are now dealing with the child of the adoptee, but I am told, among other things, that no child can be adopted out of province or to out-of-province parents without the approval of the cabinet. In our 11 years in government, there has been no such approval given, so that we have taken steps to address this in response to the Kimelman Report.

Secondly, even adopting out of province would require the approval of the director. In the case of the child that had been adopted, I believe it was probably under the aegis of several governments previously. That child was adopted within the province and the parents moved subsequently to Montreal and then subsequently down to the United States, so that matter would not, once the child was adopted, have been able to be stopped by even our present rules because of the mobility requirements under our Constitution. At the moment I am seeking any advice as to anything further that could be done by our government, but if the member opposite has any advice on that, I note from the resolution that was passed at his party’s annual meeting that they did not suggest anything could be done with respect to the Supreme Court decision, so I am open to his suggestions.

Mr. Robinson: I thank the Premier. He seems to be well aware of the issue.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Under Rule 51 of the Supreme Court rules, currently there is probably, and it is a long shot, there will be a re-hearing of this case. Since the Sagkeeng First Nation has taken this on almost singlehandedly, I would like to ask the Premier to join in this fight to bring this child back, who is correctly an Ojibway Indian from a Manitoba First Nation and bring him back to the people that he belongs with.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, although I am very, very sympathetic to the issue that he is raising, I could not advocate that we break the law. I believe that anything that we are doing and can do has to be within the process of the laws of our nation and our province, so I do not think that I can commit to taking actions that would not result in the things that the member opposite wants without breaking the law, and that is why I cannot make that commitment at the present time.

Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, the Premier correctly pointed out that the Kimelman Report, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples pointed out that this was not the correct thing to do, to send children out of the province and out of the country except in extreme circumstances. Now what is happening here is that in the B.C. courts they are already using the Supreme Court ruling as a precedent and other aboriginal children are being placed in nonaboriginal homes, which is a form of genocide. Simply what I want to ask the Premier is if he will add his voice to this practice, something that we thought we left behind in this province and in other provinces across this country.

* (1355)

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, what I wanted to do and I thought that I did in the initial response was to assure the member opposite that I am assured that we are not pursuing that practice. In fact, we have such restrictive rules that in order to send a child out of country it would require the approval of the cabinet. That has not been done in the 11 years that we have been in office and it is not intended to be done, so it is not a practice that we are going to change. We believe we are following the proper practice. Similarly, even to have a child sent out of province would require the approval of the director and I am informed that the director has no reason to give such approval and would not support such a matter. So I am suggesting to him that Supreme Court decision or B.C. decision has not impacted or affected our policies and our practices here and that I believe that the policies and practices that we are pursuing are ones that he is advocating.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, this government over the years has had delays and cutbacks in repairs to health care facilities, and we are seeing the consequences of this in the Swan River facility where repairs in 1992 were cancelled, and now the Swan River Hospital is being closed down because of a serious mould problem.

Madam Speaker, this is going to result in a lot of inconvenience for residents of the area for a long period of time. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: given that this government was part of creating the problem, will they ensure that families are not going to be put through serious hardship and inconvenience of many costs because of the transportation that they are going to face because of this situation?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I do not agree with most of the preamble from the member for Swan River. Having said that, I mean she is well aware of what has caused the problem with the Swan River Hospital. It is mould, and in fact the member for Swan River and I discussed this issue a few weeks ago on a Saturday, the day after the announcement was made that the facility would have to be closed.

I have also had officials from the Department of Health sit down with her and with their health care critic, the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), to discuss the kinds of things we are doing in the Swan River area. I can definitely assure her and the people of Swan River and the patients in those health care facilities that, yes, if there are additional costs to move those patients to another facility and so on, those patients, those families will not be incurring those costs.

We are taking all steps to deal appropriately with the people of the Swan River area to deal with patients in the facility and to make sure that they are not negatively or financially impacted by what is going to be a disruption for many individuals and many families. So temporary accommodations are being put in place. The ability to move patients to required facilities is being done. All of that is being done without passing on any of those costs to the individuals affected, Madam Speaker.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Given that the minister's staff has indicated that it will be very likely that we will have to have a new facility, can the minister assure the people of the Swan River area that they will not have to pick up the 20 percent cost of constructing a new building as is implemented in their legislation? Can he assure us that since this is not their fault, they did not ask for a new hospital, they will not have to pay this 20 percent cost?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, first of all, Madam Speaker, on the issue of a community contribution, that is nothing new in Manitoba. We have had a community contribution towards health care facilities in place, of one form or another, for many, many decades in Manitoba. In one case, you go back, at one point in time it was a 50 percent contribution. If you go back 10, 15 years ago, facilities had to contribute their land, and they had to make other contributions to facilities. So what this program has done is it has formalized a community contribution policy which amounts to 20 percent if the organization does it over 10 years. It is 10 percent if the organization could do it in one year. Provinces like British Columbia, I believe even Saskatchewan, other provinces, have community contribution policies as well. So across Canada it is a fairly common pattern.

In terms of Swan River, Madam Speaker, again I do not think we would be waiving the community contribution policy, but the issue that the member raises in terms of the timing is an important one because this has obviously happened suddenly and without an opportunity for advanced planning and so on. So I am certainly prepared to work with the community, to work with the facility to look at reasonable adjustments that can be made to allow for the issue that she raises, which is a legitimate one, and that is the fact that this has happened suddenly. So we will certainly be reasonable in terms of working with the organization and with the facility in terms of its potential redevelopment, which will either be a completely new facility which is the most likely case or maybe some renovation to the existing facility.

* (1400)

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister: if I understand it correctly, the people of Swan River are going to have to pay the 20 percent penalty that has been imposed by this government to get a new facility, through no fault of their own. I want to also ask him if he is going to use this as an excuse to downgrade the services in Swan River rather than enhance services to a hospital that serves a very large region.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): First of all, it is not a penalty by any means, Madam Speaker, and as I have already indicated, community contribution has been in place in Manitoba for 40 or 50 years, but I think what is more important is this is an opportunity for the community, for the region, for the people in those communities to work with the local health care authority, to work with our provincial government and to assess the appropriate kind of facility that can best meet the needs of the people in Swan River and Swan River area not only today but in the years to come. We are certainly prepared to do just that to make sure that we build the most appropriate facility for that community and for that region. That is what is important; that is what we are prepared to get on with.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for Hydro. This government authorizes the expenditure of $545 million, yet it fails to mention any reference to it in the throne speech. I am wondering if the minister of Hydro can give any sort of indication in terms of the confidence of that $545 million. For example, would the additional one-time tax of $90 million on assets be included in the figure that the minister provided yesterday?

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Can the minister responsible indicate to this House did the government do any sort of independent evaluation on this particular purchase, so that he can assure that Manitobans were not soaked in the purchasing of Centra Gas?

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, Nesbitt Burns and KPMG both evaluated the price of this particular transaction and gave parameters.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Will the minister responsible for Hydro then commit to have KPMG and government representatives come before a Standing Committee on Public Utilities so Manitobans can be assured of the deal or the agreement that has been reached between Manitoba Hydro and Centra Gas? We are talking a half a billion dollars. Will the minister take responsibility and ensure that sort of accountability is done here at the Manitoba Legislature?

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, the deal is not completed yet, and I would be very interested in knowing whether the Liberal Party of the province of Manitoba does support the deal in principle and just what--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for The Maples, on a point of order.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): The minister should know that Question Period is not a time for debate, and when someone answers the question by invoking another question, he is soliciting debate, so he is out of order in his answer.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I do believe the member for The Maples is correct. I think the minister was engaging in debate, and as much as we would at times like to know the position of the Liberals or any other party, he should stick to answering the question raised by the member for Inkster.

Madam Speaker: Do you wish to speak to the point of order?

Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, I am not even going to solicit counsel from the House leader on that one.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for The Maples, I basically just heard the minister mention the word "Liberals," but I did not hear the full statement if indeed he made one, so I will take it under advisement to read Hansard and consult with the authorities and report back to the House.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister, to complete your response.

Mr. Newman: I have taken under advisement your request for that information, and in due course, when the deal is concluded, that is the appropriate kind of information to be made available to the public.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines and concerns Hydro's purchase of Centra Gas.

I would like to ask the minister: why did James Foran, the lawyer for West Coast Energy Incorporated and Manitoba Hydro, request that the PUB, the Public Utilities Board, review the sale in private, a move which would be precedent setting, as the Public Utilities Board has always held its hearings in public? Why is he asking for the hearings in private?

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, the letter in question is a letter under the letterhead of Aikins, MacAulay and Thorvaldson, the legal counsel, as I understand it, for Centra and West Coast, and I have no idea why he chose to mention Hydro in that letter and suggest the letter was from them. I do not know that, but I do know that the government of the province of Manitoba has not taken any position but left it entirely up to the Public Utilities Board to determine the appropriate way to interpret the statute and also to determine the appropriate process to be followed if they deem that there is a jurisdiction by them in this particular matter. I can say this, that there is a great desire on the part of this government to make the particulars of this transaction available to the public to judge its quality at an appropriate time.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister then: why will he not now take the position that the Public Utilities Board should have public hearings on this issue, and why is he hiding behind the lawyer for Manitoba Hydro who is saying and requesting that the hearings be in private?

Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, in answer to the member's question, a Public Utilities Board has three approaches that it can take: ex parte, and as the sentence implies, without either party; orally, which means full public hearing; or written hearing. The Public Utilities Board will take under consideration the request and make its determination, and this government does not interfere and tell PUB how to make its judgment.

* (1410)

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my final question to the Minister of Energy and Mines is this: at present Centra Gas is in a co-managed environment. I would like to know, if that is the case, whether it is in a co-managed environment at this time, and if not, when will it be so.

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, until a deal is consummated, the responsibility for Centra Gas, through its owners, West Coast , is entirely managed by them. To suggest the co-management position is terminology describing something that I have no knowledge of.

In terms of the closure of the deal, they are negotiating toward a final agreement. My understanding is that the expectation was that this would be concluded by the end of April, but business deals have a life of their own. We do not interfere, and Hydro and Centra, I am sure, are making the best efforts to conclude this as soon as possible.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, in its most recent brief to MLAs, the Manitoba Society for Seniors said that there are many construction projects underway for 55-plus population in condominiums and life-lease housing throughout the province. Unfortunately, much of this available construction is out of the reach financially for many seniors. At the same time, existing nonprofit housing like the Veterans Manor and Jack's Place has found it impossible to operate and provide housing, meals, and care for seniors.

I want to ask the Minister of Housing to explain why his government has chosen to spend $2.1 million on 204 units where the affordable rent there is $1,975 monthly at The Waverley, and why places like Jack’s Place where they pay $500 a month has no support for health care and other needs.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, I should point out to the member that Jack’s Place, the accommodation on Main Street, was run not by Manitoba Housing but was managed by, I believe it was SAM.

But on a serious note, the matter of having proper accommodations for seniors is very, very important. This is one of the reasons why, with the Veterans Manor that the member has mentioned, we are working very, very closely with that organization to ensure that the residents are accommodated. We have been asked to give some sort of direction to Jack’s Place to see whether that can be accommodated in some sort of housing accommodations for the people downstairs, downtown, pardon me, but Manitoba Housing is working very, very closely with those areas in trying to accommodate the people that are deserving of accommodations.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, does the minister understand that low-income Manitobans also need a strategy for supported housing, that this will keep them out of the hospital, will improve their quality of life? I want to ask the minister: how is he responding to the Manitoba Society of Seniors that has asked for a strategy for supported housing for low-income Manitobans as well?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, we have been working very, very closely with the long-term care facilities here in Winnipeg in looking at trying to accommodate supportive housing on a pilot basis in a few of our places. We are looking at working with the Health department very seriously in the utilization of some of our space for the elderly. This is an ongoing process. This is not something that is new.

The member seems to feel that there is nothing being done other than the fact of what she is reporting in the House here. We are very, very closely monitoring, trying to accommodate seniors with additional seniors’ homes--beds being built that have been committed by this government. What we have outlined to work with the seniors has been very, very positive, and we will continue to try to accommodate the seniors in our housing.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, Manitobans want to know why this government has chosen to spend $2.1 million on services for seniors that are in for-profit residence when the not-for-profit sector in Manitoba is starving for funds and they are being forced to hand over their keys to this government because they cannot operate. Why have you made that choice, and what kind of a plan is that for seniors in Manitoba?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, the member is talking about developments that are--there are life-lease associations that are building accommodations throughout Winnipeg and indeed throughout Manitoba to try to address some of the needs in that area. These are all operated under a nonprofit association in regard to the building of these life-lease associations. As was mentioned the other day in questions that were asked, some of them do have a EIPH licence which is under review, but a lot of them do not have. There are over 260 units, including units in her constituency, that operate under those licences. So these are things that we are addressing, but we are, as I say, looking at various ways to accommodate seniors in various areas of our province.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, during the 1980s the government of Manitoba had two claims inspectors. During the Filmon watch, we have now gone down to one, and in fact now have no claims inspectors in Manitoba at all.

Will the government commit now to replacing the two claims inspectors for Manitoba so that we are able to regulate and enforce Manitoba laws?

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, the function that is being addressed, of course, is a supervisory function. It is a credit to the explorationists, the prospectors and the people who stake claims that a minimal amount of interference is necessary because of the honour and quality of the people who do that kind of work, as my friend opposite well knows, but from time to time there is a need for supervision to make sure that unscrupulous people do not take advantage of the honour system. So there are inspectors, and indeed we have had a retirement. There is a process being put in place to hire a replacement person. In the meantime, other staff, and not Geological Services people, are engaged in performing that occasional supervisory role on a random basis.

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Can the minister explain why the claimants whose matters come before the Mining Board are required to serve papers on the accused like a prosecutor and why the department does not take an administrative role in serving the papers and ensuring that the hearing is going to go along smoothly like other government review boards?

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, that is the first time I have heard that complaint raised by anybody. No member of the industry, no member of the staff, no stakeholder has ever raised that issue before. The member opposite, having raised that statement, I can say this, that my experience was with the Small Claims Court, that self-service was a methodology employed. All of this is in the interests of saving taxpayers money. It makes perfectly good sense. Those feeling aggrieved can perform that kind of service.

If the honourable member for St. James wishes to advocate that taxpayers should pay for that, I would be very pleased to hear that and perhaps do a costing out of it and see whether that makes any sense at all.

* (1420)

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, can the minister explain how the government's plan to have one mines inspector in The Pas, as has been the case for the past few years, could possibly do the mines inspections in the Bissett area, and would the minister tell us how many times or how many inspections have occurred on the east side of Manitoba in the last year?

An Honourable Member: Thousands.

Ms. Mihychuk: None.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, I do not have that information at my fingertips, but that is the kind of detail which can be accessed with considerable research by departmental staff who would probably prefer to be out supervising and inspecting where necessary. However, if the honourable member for St. James is really serious about that, and I assume she is, and unless she says otherwise I will have a briefing note brought to my attention and share that information with the former member of the department, the honourable member for St. James.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Elmwood, for one very short question.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Energy and Mines a question regarding the purchase of Centra Gas. I would like to ask him: what date will the definitive agreement be ready for filing with the PUB? Give us a date.

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, that would, of course, be an impossible thing to do because this is a free negotiation between two parties that are engaging in an effort to achieve the conclusion of a business deal. I do not have the answer to that question, and the honourable member for Elmwood knows full well it would be irresponsible for me to even speculate about it.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.