4th-36th Vol. 65-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today a delegation of Partnership of Parliaments State Parliamentarians from Germany under the leadership of Mr. Klaus Leroff.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

I would like to also draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Dennis Whitebird, Vice-Chief of AFM, and Pascal Bighetty, Chief of Mathias Colomb.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Also seated in the public gallery we have fifteen Grade 5 students from Chapman School under the direction of Mrs. Cathey Gornik. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

We also have sixteen Grade 4 students from Pinkham School under the direction of Mr. Richard Scrapneck. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale).

I am not sure if this school is present; seven Grades 4 and 5 students from Voyageur Elementary--oh, there they are--under the direction of Mrs. Rosalind Dick. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. McIntosh).

On behalf of all members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, many citizens, average citizens, were opposed to the removal of a guaranteed right of citizen participation in community committees at hearings that were held yesterday and last evening. I would like to ask the government again: why is it eliminating the guaranteed right of citizen participation in community committees, and why will we leave up to the whim of City Council, in the future, important decisions about the quality of their community, such as the location of adult video stores? In the future, why can we not maintain that as a citizen right under law here in Manitoba in this Legislature?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, in my answers to questions yesterday, I pointed out to the member for Concordia that the City of Winnipeg has been empowered with more decision-making capabilities as to how they will be able to conduct public meetings and presentations that they feel are in order to accommodate some of the concerns that the citizens bring forth. Zoning applications, subdivision applications, major variances, land development proposals still have to go to public meetings that are still required and dictated under The City of Winnipeg Act.

So I am not too sure exactly where the member is coming from saying that there is the elimination of public meetings. There will still be public meetings. They possibly will be even enhanced because of the city's ability to make these decisions on their own for where and when they believe public participation should commence.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, you are removing the guaranteed right of citizens to participate in community committees. If the minister does not understand that he is giving more power to the City Hall politicians and less power to the citizens of Winnipeg--it is a very simple change in power, which we think is contrary to the democratic rights of people.

In fact, Cam Neirinck, a worker at Hydro dealing with the hydro underground wires at McIvor and Bonner, said that this Bill 36 is antidemocratic, and we lose the guaranteed rights of citizen participation in community committees.

On behalf of many other average citizens who appeared last night before the committee--there were groups for the bill, groups against the bill, but average citizens were against the removal of their guaranteed right--will the Acting Premier please amend this law and guarantee the rights of citizen participation in community committees?

Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, the member for Concordia is of the opinion that this government here should be the ones that dictate how and where and what the City of Winnipeg should be doing in their type of addressing of public participation and how public meetings should be conducted. They are of the opinion that it should be prescriptive, narrow, focused on what they believe should be covered as to public participation.

We are saying we are letting the City of Winnipeg, the councillors, the mayor, make the decision as to how and where they feel they should be having public consultation and that the duly elected people are the people who should make this type of decision.

I should point out that public hearings would still have to be made for Plan Winnipeg, the zoning variance by-laws, variance conditional use, subdivision applications, secondary plans and local improvement districts. Public participation is guaranteed in The City of Winnipeg Act under almost every circumstance that I have mentioned, plus it gives the City of Winnipeg the ability to make the changes and the abilities that they feel are necessary in any way that they feel is possible.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A new question to the Acting Premier. A foster parent, Jenny Dyal, whom I met yesterday, talked about the issue of the government removing in the Child and Family Services area in central Winnipeg the standby fee for emergency foster homes. Madam Speaker, she feels this had a very negative impact on children and the number of children, regrettably, who are housed in hotels and other short-term shelters. I would like to ask the Acting Premier: what impact has the elimination of the standby fee in the inner city had on children that are staying in hotels and short-term shelters?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice for the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

Mr. Doer: Of course, the government will remember that there were 71,000 child-days in 1997 for children that were housed in hotels and short-term shelters, double the number of kids and child-days than a year before, which I think is an absolute scandal. I am surprised the Deputy Premier is not on top of this and has to take it as notice on behalf of the children of this province.

I would like to ask the Acting Premier: can he confirm that the number of emergency foster homes in the inner city has gone from eight to two in central Winnipeg? Mrs. Dyal reports that she is even getting three-month-old babies from hotels under, regrettably, some of the policies of this government. How many of these children have ended up in hotels because of this, again, negative change sanctioned by this provincial government?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I will take the details of the question as notice, but one thing I can confirm is that this minister and this government has put $20 million more into the foster care home program to make sure the children are looked after, far more than the previous administration.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the increased funds, we worry, have gone too much into hotels and short-term shelters and not into long-term prevention, long-term solutions for our kids. This government has had a 10-year history of abandoning our children.

Another measure that this government took was to introduce privatized fees for the adoption of children under Bill 47 last year. Both the agency and the workers stated that this would have a negative impact on the number of children adopted and taken into care in our communities. I would like to ask the government now: are they regretting that privatization decision of the adoption of our children, and will they look at more creative ways of handling kids in loving, emotional care rather than having privatization of adoptions, which they introduced against all advice last year?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): I do not accept any of the preamble or the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition. One thing I do not regret is the fiscal responsibility and the resources that are now available to look after the children of this province in the future so they are not taxed so there is no hope for any of them. They now have the ability, through the Department of Family Services and all the programs, not to just keep spending money on interest payments in New York and throughout the world, that we can in fact have some money for those programs for the future of our children.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, everyone knows that children need stability in their lives, they need a caring adult to bond with--everyone, that is, maybe, except this insensitive, uncaring government--and that children as young as three months old are in hotels, that children are frequently moved. Yesterday we were told of a child who moved 22 times.

Will the Acting Premier tell the Legislature and families and children in Manitoba what they are going to do to get children out of hotels and to bring permanency into their lives particularly by introducing a subsidy for adoption, which exists in Saskatchewan and other provinces? When will they bring it into Manitoba?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I have already indicated what we have done as it relates to adding some $20 million to the budget of Family Services, a budget which he voted against. He voted against it. His party voted against additional resources to help the children of this province.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Absolutely none of that money is going to foster parents or foster children in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question now.

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Mr. Martindale: Can the Acting Premier tell Manitobans why or how or if private adoptions, which in other provinces cost $6,000 to $10,000, are going to help even one child in Manitoba to get permanency in their life? How will this solve the problem of hundreds of children every night in temporary placements, and how will it encourage parents to adopt children? The vast majority of parents who want to adopt cannot afford these exorbitant fees. How will this solve the crisis in child welfare?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, first of all, we cannot take for granted or for fact the information that the member brings to this House, so I will take the question as notice and have my colleague respond at a future time.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to ask the Acting Premier to take a question as notice, since he is not going to give us any answers anyway, and encourage his colleagues and his cabinet and particularly his Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) to redirect some of the money that they are clawing back from people on social assistance and to act on some of the recommendations of many different agencies, including Winnipeg Child and Family Services, including front-line workers, including foster parents who are telling us that if there were a subsidy available, many parents would adopt children tomorrow. Will the Acting Premier take action on this and get some permanency into the lives of these children?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, again, I do not have any trouble taking the question as notice, but I want to assure you that this government will do all we can to make--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker. Our practice in the House is very clear that if a minister takes a question as notice, he or she does exactly that. They come back with the information at a later date. The minister should not be saying he is getting up, taking the question as notice and then continuing with some additional rhetoric afterwards. It is either one way or the other. Since he does not know the answer and is bringing back the information at a later time, I suggest you call him to order, and we proceed with further questions.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker. This point of order demonstrates the difficulty in which ministers of the Crown are placed when expectations from the opposition are that on the one hand they give some kind of detailed answer, and today, on which they do not want details because the facts do not really matter to them. On the other hand, they are critical of a minister who wants to take questions as notice for another minister. I suggest the rules the member refers to do not justify in any way the point of order he raises. The Deputy First Minister has been attempting to deal with the issues raised by members opposite asking questions today. So you may want to take this one under advisement, but then again, you may not and you may want to rule. In any event, I do not think the honourable member for Thompson has a point of order.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind all honourable ministers, when replying to questions or taking them as notice, indeed he is accurate. The statement is that you will take it as notice and not add to the response.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions are directed to the Acting Minister of Family Services. Madam Speaker, the minister, not that long ago, made a decision here to cut support services for extended families which created a huge increase in the number of children being under the care of the state. Now this same minister has decided to charge $1,000 or more for adoptions, and needless to say, again, this ill-advised move will undoubtedly increase the number of children in state care.

What I would like to ask the Acting Minister of Family Services is: will the minister consider immediately ordering these fees to be put on hold?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, first of all, I do not accept the preamble and the accusations put on the record by the member opposite. I can assure him and the opposition and the people of Manitoba that my colleague, the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), has done more for the children of this province in putting more resources on the table, organizing better the department and making sure they do have a future. I will take the specifics of the question as notice.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable Deputy Premier that he is to either make an explicit statement saying he will take the question as notice, or respond to the question asked.

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Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, these are very serious questions that I am asking here this afternoon of government members.

The second question that I would like to ask the Acting Premier is: would he at least meet with First Nations representatives, child care workers and adoptive parents to review why the number of adoptions are not meeting this urgent need out there?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, having had many years the privilege of serving as Minister of Northern and Native Affairs, I have had the opportunity to meet with many First Nations people. I would never have any problem meeting with them. On this particular subject, I will take the question as notice for my colleague, the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

I apologize to you, Madam Speaker, if it is absolutely incorrect about how I am answering the question, but I am taking it as notice as well for my colleague. I believe I have the right and the privilege to answer as to whether or not I will meet with them. I said I would.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My last question, Madam Speaker, is again to the Acting Premier. Would the Acting Premier advise this House why his government is trying to make money off the very people who are willing to adopt children, children who would otherwise be shunted from hotel room to hotel room, to temporary homes to temporary homes?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I absolutely reject that accusation.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, if you live in Winnipeg, we have a wonderful 24-hour, seven-days-a-week program called Health Links, which is operated by 24-hour nurses, registered nurses I believe. They do a fabulous job for the citizens of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, this is a service in fact that should be expanded out into rural Manitoba. My question to the Minister of Health is: does the government have any intentions on providing this same service to rural residents in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Inkster for that question. I know he has always been a very strong supporter of Health Links, that particular concept. I can tell him, first of all, that it is an excellent service; I agree wholeheartedly with him. It is our intention--we are currently in fact looking within the ministry, beginning to look at how that service could be expanded.

In fact, I can report to the House that I have had some discussions with one group in particular who have a great deal of experience in providing an even broader service to a larger constituency than just a city, and there are some other providers as well who have much to share with us, so we will be looking at that in the months ahead about expanding that particular service.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, is the minister then prepared to give a commitment that by the end of the year there will in fact be a 1-800 or a 1-888 number for rural Manitoba so that they can in fact call and receive this vital health care service?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would love to be able to do that, but there are always hosts of problems that can come up in actually implementing that kind of expansion. So I do not want to find myself in a position today when we are just exploring this possibility to make a commitment that I cannot live up to. It is certainly an area that we are looking at, and as I can indicate to him as recently as this past week, I have had an opportunity to speak with one of a similar-type service provider about the concept of an expanded-type service which could be provided right across the province.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Will the minister acknowledge that the biggest deficiency, if you like, in this particular program is the lack of public awareness? One of the ways in which we can address that problem--and I would ask the minister: is in fact the ministry prepared to put aside some money to ensure that there is advertising for this particular program? In the long term, I would argue, Madam Speaker, it will save a great deal of dollars and provide a better quality service for all Manitobans.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, a public relations campaign and awareness campaign would obviously have to be part of that. One possibility, as well, that I share with the House is that as we move to the plastic card health card, which is important to many of the other information system initiatives that this government has undertaken, the ability to have that type of number right on the card or the back of the card so that it is accessible to Manitobans in their wallets or in their pockets or their handbags becomes an important part of that. I appreciate the member's support for this project.

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Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, Mr. John Janzen, 41 years old, married father of two, suffered methyl bromide induced neurotoxic poisoning and sustained permanent neurological damage. Mr. Janzen suffers from myoclonic seizures, has no use of his hands and is confined to a wheelchair 90 percent of the time. After several remands and a plea bargain, Poulin's, the exterminator, pleaded guilty to three Workplace Safety and Health charges and received only a fine of $2,500 on two counts and $500 on the last count, obviously less than the defence attorneys' fees.

I want to ask the Minister of Justice why his department dropped 11 of the 14 original Workplace Safety and Health charges that were brought against Poulin's? Why did you drop 11 of those 14 charges?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I will look into the matter and determine why the matter was resolved in the way it was.

Mr. Reid: I want to ask the same minister to explain why one of the charges dropped was one which would have held the company manager, Robert Acheson, responsible for the injury to John Janzen, considering that this manager and this company refused to give Workplace Safety and Health investigators access to the employees and the company property to conduct the mandatory investigation.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the issues relating to what charges to proceed on that arise out of any one particular event, which I understand this was, relate under two categories: No.1, whether there was sufficient evidence to proceed; and No. 2, whether there is double jeopardy, that is, is someone being convicted for the same offence more than one time. As I have indicated to the member, I will look into that issue.

Mr. Reid: I want to ask the Minister of Justice to explain why his department did not contact the Janzen family to seek their advice about the plea bargaining that took place where the 11 of the 14 charges were dropped. Is this your government's policy to treat families and victims of serious crimes in such a fashion? Is this your government policy?

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I know that, as a general rule, the victims and the family are in fact kept aware of proceedings. In some cases, that may occur more frequently than in other cases, but as I have indicated, I will take the question that the member has provided and look further into the matter.

Last week, the Minister of Northern Affairs committed himself to make an investment in assisting the Sayisi Dene in transporting building supplies to Tadoule Lake, and today we learned that this position has changed. These people, Indian people in this province of Manitoba, Madam Speaker, do not feel that they are Manitobans.

I would like to ask the minister what his immediate plans are and exactly what is the minister's official position on this matter.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I not only made a commitment to work with the chief and council of Tadoule Lake, I stand by that commitment. The investment of time and resources and energy that we have devoted on this issue from the moment it was brought into this House and then into my office, about within an hour after that, has resulted in an involvement, an interaction with the federal government, the regional director. We are making progress in the kind of relationship building which is going to make the difference for the people of Tadoule Lake and other aboriginal Manitoba citizens.

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Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, the Sayisi Dene people of Tadoule Lake have been informed that they have to wait for the next winter roads season to open in order for them to get their building supplies. Chief Dennis Whitebird, a very honourable chief in the province of Manitoba, is in the gallery this afternoon, and he has written a letter to the Minister of Northern Affairs, which I would like to table, expressing his disappointment at the about-turn of this minister.

Chief Whitebird, along with Chief Pascal Bighetty, the housing portfolio carrier for the MKO, are available to meet with the minister, and I would like to ask the minister if he would avail himself to that opportunity to clarify his position to both these leaders on the about-face that he has made with the Sayisi Dene people.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, as always, I am very pleased and honoured that a chief, or two chiefs in this case, would be prepared to meet to discuss issues affecting aboriginal citizens of the province of Manitoba, and will make myself available, of course, for that purpose.

What does cause me some concern and disappointment in the honourable member for Rupertsland is that he appears to be asserting a position that the Province of Manitoba should invest $500,000 in order to fly in now housing materials which the federal government has an obligation and commitment to fly in and pay for or to bring in by winter road. They have said to us that they did not make any commitment to fly in the material. They have no obligation to fly in the material and, because of all the competing priorities, that bringing in by winter road as soon as possible would be the best option for the sake of all aboriginal people in this country and indeed in Manitoba. That is their position.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, through you, the question was very simply to the minister: what are the plans to address the needs of the Sayisi Dene people? Is he embarking upon a relationship with that First Nation and the federal government? That was the question.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Native Affairs): Again, I express my disappointment, Madam Speaker, in the member opposite, because the honourable member for Rupertsland was in my office with the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) and knows full well that I made a commitment to work with them, but I invited the chief on behalf of the council and the people of Tadoule Lake to share information, to share their needs and to work with us. If we want to work in good faith as partners, we are going to have to have common sharing of information between us, and then we will be able to deal in an informed way with the federal government.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I would like to quickly respond to a question raised by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) yesterday about a very tragic accident that happened at Birch River. The member raised questions around stop signs, and I want to inform her that the direction to staff in the Department of Highways manual of maintenance is that any stop sign that is found, or a curve sign, or any other highway traffic sign that is found down is to be replaced or to be re-erected immediately, in particular stop signs and curve signs instantly because of the safety-related incidents that can happen there. There are no budget limitations whatsoever on that action.

The member maybe has asked about the stop sign at the particular intersection. As far as staff can recall, there never was one for the westbound traffic there. There was one for the eastbound traffic because there were some sight limitations, and that one had been up for a long period of time.

Madam Speaker, both the department and the municipality have been involved in brush clearing at that intersection in the last year and to improve sight lines. It is unfortunate that these tragic things happen. There are thousands and thousands of uncontrolled intersections on rural roads around Manitoba, and remember the driver on the right always has the right of way; that is the rule of the road. It is unfortunate these things happen. I just wanted to correct the record to let the member know that we replace stop signs. Unfortunately, there is vandalism out there, but we respond as quickly as we can.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My question is for the Minister of Northern Affairs. Last week the minister committed to helping the Sayisi Dene and to taking current critical Sayisi Dene issues to cabinet in order to seek funds for aiding the poorest people in the province who also pay the highest food prices in the province.

What commitment is the minister prepared to make now to ensure provincial assistance for shipping food to Tadoule Lake?

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I have no knowledge of any issue about shipping food to Tadoule Lake. With respect to the issue relating to the whole question of servicing the needs arising out of the early demise of the winter roads, that is something that we are working at in a co-operative way as a result of the meeting we had with the federal government representatives a day or so ago. Growing out of that developing relationship, not only are we investigating all possibilities for dealing in the most beneficial way possible with the current situation, but also looking at ways to make sure proactively we are ready in more effective ways perhaps to deal with future crises situations like this that arise. Much was learned in this situation by the First Nations representatives and by others, and we are going to learn from it and make sure that changes are made to make sure that we are better next time.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): The Lifesaving Society has issued the Manitoba Drowning Report for 1998, and it is very clear that we have a high rate of drownings in this province and sadly a high rate of preventable drownings. We have twice the average of children and teens in terms of drownings as the national average. Disturbingly, Madam Speaker, one-third of the drownings were in northern Manitoba, and more than 40 percent of the drownings involve aboriginal people. The aboriginal population in this province is less than 10 percent.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) if, in light of this report, the government will undertake to reinstate the programs that were in place before, in terms of water safety in many northern communities, programs which were cut by this government, and in fact, will this government make a substantial commitment to try and provide lifesaving and swimming lessons to all Manitoba kids so we can bring down the level of drownings in this province?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, to begin with, I think that we would all agree that education is the best way to prevent what are largely preventable and very often tragic situations that occur, and there is a responsibility on the part of all of us, particularly where young people are involved, to provide opportunity and training for water safety.

There is also an obligation to make sure that, particularly young children, we do make them aware of the dangers of some of our waterways.

Will the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) ask that the inquests be called so that we can get some recommendations to stop this epidemic level of drownings in this province?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, I recognize that the question was directed towards the Minister of Justice, but I would remind honourable members and the public as well that the Province of Manitoba recently received a report from Dr. Markesteyn, a review that was done about three years ago on water safety in this province. I think the information contained there and the advice provided in that report are still viable today.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

We have two sides to this government. When the government does one thing unpopular, it is the regional health authority's fault, and when it is cutting a ribbon or something that is popular, we have the government and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the minister out there to cut the ribbon.

My question to the Minister of Health concerns Bill 57, and again it deals with this division of this government. How does the Minister of Health justify, with respect to Bill 57, the unprecedented nature of the bill that allows a minister, by fiat, to impose on hospitals, to exclude, to override provisions of private acts made in this Chamber, to override provisions of incorporated acts made in this Chamber; unprecedented in a parliamentary system, the minister, by fiat, to impose agreements and solutions in Bill 57 that override even private acts of the hospitals and the institutions in this Legislature? How can they justify it?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, this legislation is not unprecedented. It was passed by the New Democratic Party government of Saskatchewan and is used by their New Democratic Party colleagues in that province for the same purpose, and the purpose is a simple one. The dollars--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the reality in both Saskatchewan and Manitoba is the same. It is public dollars voted by this Legislative Assembly that fund and provide for the health care of the people of Manitoba, and if the New Democratic Party is insisting that we provide those dollars without being able to control how they are spent for best patient care, then we do have a very significant disagreement between us.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister, who seems to have trouble finding that public money to deal with waiting lists in this province, explain on a parliamentary or practical level how it is that this Legislature can, in an unprecedented sense, pass a bill that overrides private acts set up by individuals and otherwise, take complete control by a ministerial fiat, I might add, in this legislation? That is undemocratic. Whether the minister thinks it is right or wrong, it is not appropriate--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, it is not unprecedented. Their colleagues, the New Democratic Party government in Saskatchewan, brought in the same type of legislation with respect to their regional health authorities. Many times decisions and processes that we put into legislation in that legislation override other pieces of legislation.

Let us remember the fundamental principle here. It is the public of Manitoba who pays for health care; it is not private organizations; it is not charitable organizations. They contribute, but the fundamental payment for health care is by the people of the province of Manitoba through this Legislature. Ultimately, the authority as to how it is spent has to rest with the people's representatives in this Legislature.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, in light of what the minister just said, can this minister, who cites Saskatchewan--and I wish we had waiting lists like Saskatchewan, but can this minister explain why, when we asked to reduce MRIs, he says go to the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority? Why, when we need beds open, he says go to the institutions, they did it? Why, when we need these waiting lists done and we need it to deal with health issues, the minister cannot find the money, the minister does not have the authority? But now he is going to take the authority through Bill 57. That is hypocritical and wrong.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, what is hypocritical is when--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. That is why I hesitated in the first instance before recognizing the honourable Minister of Health. The words "hypocrite" and "hypocritical" have both been ruled unparliamentary, and I would ask that neither the honourable member for Kildonan nor the honourable Minister of Health utilize that word.

Mr. Praznik: It is interesting to note that, in the last hours or days of Estimates debate, the member for Kildonan's colleague, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), asked us to order--order, Madam Speaker--the Misericordia Hospital to set up a separate board of directors for their clinic. He was asking us to do exactly what his colleague is condemning.

Could the New Democratic Party, for just once, get their act together?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.