Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.
We are on Resolution 12.1.Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Chairperson, I just want to pick up quickly where we left off yesterday on the arrangements that have been with Linnet Geomatics and Louisiana-Pacific and the provincial government. I am hoping that the minister can help me understand better the ins and the outs of this rather complicated arrangement.
I am interested in knowing about the royalty that is paid. First of all, who pays the royalty and who receives the royalty?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): I believe the member may have been mixing and matching a little bit in his question, because, as I recall, his question was around the L-P contract. I have that information that I said I would provide for the L-P contract. I think that was part of his question. He asked about royalties, whether that is related to the L-P contract.
Let me try this as simply as I can describe it. A contract was signed in September '94. It is a five-year contract. That means it will conclude in 1999. The last payment will be July 1998 from L-P to Linnet. The job is to develop an annual operating plan plus a 10-year plan and develop the GIS software to accommodate that. The cost of this will be borne 30 percent by L-P, 30 percent by the province, and 40 percent by Linnet. This will allow for the long-term development plans. It will categorize tree growth, the economics, the transportation development that needs to occur, and development of modules for the woodland system. If there was to be any reproduction or resale of this information to anyone else in the future or required by anyone else, and I am not sure why that might be, any reimbursement in the nature of a royalty would be reflective of the investment, in other words, 30-30-40.
* (1440)
The member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) has been very clear in how he wants to understand this. This is not a situation where Linnet is acquiring something that would not be available to anybody else, but they have to put it together in a system so that it can be used by L-P so that they can quickly demonstrate the interrelationship and the volumes and all of those different pieces of information that they need to know in order to justify their plans to the province and the province to be able to regulate those plans and to be able to provide that information. I would think a portion of this information would probably be asked for by the environmental work that has to be done.
The thing that I think interacts on this type of arrangement and probably causes some confusion--it certainly has the capacity to cause some confusion for anyone looking at this is that when we do licensing in this province, not only do we have the forest management licence, we have that overlaid by an environment licence. So there is more than one department of government that needs to be satisfied on what is happening with the harvesting out there in the field. We are talking about Louisiana-Pacific, and I know during their hearings they said they had never encountered a process like Manitoba's anywhere that they worked in North America. They were somewhat frustrated when they pointed that out, I would acknowledge, but I think that, as they worked their way through it, they recognized all of the interrelationships between the stream crossings, the environmental concerns there, the fish, the wildlife habitat, all those things that have to be brought together.
It is not just the Department of Natural Resources through the Forestry Branch that ends up being the regulator. They have to satisfy the environmental concerns and obtain environmental approvals as well for a number of the things that they might well be doing. Again, I would reference streams and crossings, those sorts of things. So this has been a real asset to the Province of Manitoba in terms of being able to obtain reliable information that very quickly allows our regulators to understand the volume of wood, the accessibility and all the other factors that come to bear on this. Linnet being in place to be able to do this work has turned out to be quite an asset.
Mr. Struthers: The minister talks in terms of royalties as being a 30-30-40 split between L-P, the province, and Linnet. Maybe I am not getting it straight, but does that percentage of royalties change when you look at the broader picture, not just the agreement with Linnet. Is that a general agreement as well with the province and Linnet? I am not speaking now in terms of Louisiana-Pacific. I am interested in the royalties that the government can look forward to receiving from Linnet.
Mr. Cummings: What I described is very specific to the L-P situation and I think reflects the situation, the amount of work and input that is necessary to develop this, but it is very specific to this arrangement. This is not a template that every bit of work that Linnet does follows.
Mr. Struthers: Any of the agreements that Linnet is involved with, whether it is with Hydro or anybody else in the province, the provincial government is going to be expecting a certain amount of revenue from royalties. Do they all go on the 30-30-40 split, or are there different combinations for different groups that are involved with contracts with Linnet?
Mr. Cummings: What I said was, and I repeat, is that the percentages that I spoke about are very specific to this L-P contract. Other arrangements, I do not have that information specifically at my hands as to what they might be, but certainly they are there.
Mr. Struthers: Then I wonder if I can kind of roll two questions into one here. The first one is: how much revenue would the Department of Natural Resources be looking forward to receiving in the arrangements they have with Louisiana-Pacific and the province and Linnet? The second question would be: how much total revenue would the provincial government be looking forward to on a province-wide basis when you take all the different contracts together? I wonder if the minister would have that figure and would be willing to share that with me.
Mr. Cummings: Where the value would be for resale would be in the developed woodlands system, software system, but I cannot tell you what the projections are for the ability to market that except that I believe this is a pretty competent system. So likely there is some market out there, and that is why we maintained a 30-percent royalty option against it, because it is, as I recall, some leading work in this area. In fact, we have been recently complimented by some international comparators that Manitoba now had in its hands some of the best and most competent data about what was available in its woodlands.
There is another piece of information that I can add. The woodlands system that was developed for L-P, there have been sales that have occurred. When I said I cannot tell the member how much we have earned or how much they are selling for, to give him a total, I can tell him that sales have occurred to B.C. and Alberta clients, companies operating in those two jurisdictions. They have purchased; that is the nature of the business. As we speak, I understand Linnet has had some major agricultural conferences where a lot of interest is being expressed in their capability.
* (1450)
Mr. Struthers: Mr. Chairperson, I think I can understand the difficulty in projecting the revenue, but I think also when we enter these agreements in government, all the time we are projecting revenue. I do not know if I understand exactly why the minister would not be able to indicate at least a projected amount of revenue--
Mr. Cummings: I just do not have it in front of me.
Mr. Struthers: Oh, if it is a case of not having it in front, then--
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask the minister, if he is going to interject, he should do it when he is on the record, so that we can get everything for Hansard.
The honourable member for Dauphin, to continue.
Mr. Struthers: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. The minister has indicated that he does not have that information in front of him just now, and that he will endeavour to provide me with total revenues that he is looking forward to, I am hoping, with not just the specific deal with Louisiana-Pacific but the total revenue from projects throughout the province that the government and Linnet are involved in. Maybe the minister can confirm that I have some reasonable expectations there.
Mr. Cummings: I am shaking my head in an affirmative.
Mr. Struthers: I believe that concludes the questions that I have, and that we can begin moving line by line approving the line budget, whatever the term is.
Mr. Chairperson: We will start with 12.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $398,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $83,800--pass.
12.1.(c) Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $770,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $335,500--pass.
12.1.(d) Financial Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,236,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $322,000--pass.
12.1.(e) Human Resource Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $746,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $120,000--pass.
12.1.(f) Resource Information Systems (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $772,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $98,000--pass.
12.2. Regional Operations (a) Headquarters Operations (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,184,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,001,800--pass; (3) Problem Wildlife Control $273,700.
12.2.(b) Northwest Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,898,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $669,300--pass.
12.2.(c) Northeast Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,075,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $906,900--pass.
12.2.(d) Central Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,306,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,638,100--pass.
12.2.(e) Eastern Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,107,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $960,300--pass.
12.2.(f) Western Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,050,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,470,700--pass.
12.2.(g) Fire Program (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,910,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $8,216,900--pass.
Resolution 12.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $34,671.500 for Natural Resources, Regional Operations, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
12.3. Resource Programs (a) Water Resources (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $289,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $313,500--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $25,000--pass.
12.3.(a)(2) Water Licensing (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $653,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $39,700--pass.
12.3.(a)(3) Water Planning and Development (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,083,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $113,600--pass; (c) Waterway Maintenance $3,895,400--pass.
12.3.(a)(4) Surface Water Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $590,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $364,900--pass; (c) Canada-Manitoba Agreement for Water Quantity Surveys $402,400--pass.
12.3.(a)(5) Groundwater Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $574,400--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $172,300--pass.
12.3.(b) Parks and Natural Areas (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $398,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $269,100--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $134,000--pass.
12.3.(b)(2) Planning and Development (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $674,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $207,600--pass.
12.3.(b)(3) Park Districts (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $417,800--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $59,400--pass.
12.3.(b)(4) Park Operations and Maintenance (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $9,444,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $4,082,000--pass.
12.3.(b)(5) Support Services (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $177,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $60,400--pass.
12.3.(c) Policy Co-ordination (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $978,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $208,300--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $10,200--pass.
12.3.(d) Forestry (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $302,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $325,800--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $465,800--pass.
12.3.(d)(2) Forest Resources Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $797,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $781,400--pass.
12.3.(d)(3) Forest Health and Ecology (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $891,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $3,221,300--pass.
12.3.(d)(4) Forest Economics and Marketing (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $337,800--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $55,500--pass.
12.3.(d)(5) Forest Regeneration Stock $1,411,900--pass.
12.3.(d)(6) Pineland Forest Nursery 0--pass.
12.3.(e) Fisheries (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $202,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $132,600--pass.
12.3.(e)(2) Fish Culture (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $625,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $309,000--pass.
12.3.(e)(3) Fisheries Habitat Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $326,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $74,500--pass.
12.3.(e)(4) Sport and Commercial Fishing Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $473,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $82,800--pass.
12.3.(e)(5) Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance $250,000--pass.
12.3.(e)(6) Fisheries Enhancement Initiative $350,000-pass.
12.3.(f) Wildlife (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $406,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $268,800--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $207,000--pass.
12.3.(f)(2) Big Game and Fur Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $517,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $221,900--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $89,900--pass.
12.3.(f)(3) Habitat and Land Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $654,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $179,700--pass.
* (1500)
Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Yes, I would like to make a substantial and rather lengthy interjection at this time in the Minister of Natural Resources' Estimates and give him some of my sage advice with respect to the responsibilities of that department, a department, Mr. Chairperson, that I have had the privilege of presiding over over a space of time spanning four decades. Does that suitably impress you, Mr. Minister?
I want to take this occasion just to insert, because this is the first opportunity that I have had. I noted in today's paper that the next Prime Minister of Canada, the current Minister of Finance, is featured in that paper as acknowledging that he wishes to soften his image in preparation for becoming the Prime Minister of this country. To make that transition from Minister of Finance to Prime Minister, one has to undergo certain changes. Metamorphosis, I believe, is the word that I was seeking.
In doing so he is reigniting, and I am very enthusiastic about that and very supportive of that, the environmental issues in the land. What that reads to me is that there would be an opportunity that some of those programs that were stalled as a result of budget restrictions, the CMASS program, the conservation programs, programs that were shared jointly by the departments of Natural Resources and Agriculture--I am referring specifically to the $9-million multiyear agreement that Natural Resources and Agriculture jointly had for a host of worthwhile conservation programs throughout the landscape of Manitoba.
I want to encourage my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources to read today's paper. Do not be fully engulfed in the politics of it. I mean, he does not have to--while he is still trying to make up his mind which aspiring leader of the national Tory Party he should support later on in October, let him dwell on the musings of the Minister of Finance, soon to become Prime Minister of Canada, in his signal to Canadians that he is prepared to loosen the purse strings for environmental programming, and I would ask that the honourable minister, now that he has a bit of spare time, the heavy pressure, that constant attack by the opposition by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), the member for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans) has now receded into the background and you will have a bit more time on your hands, Mr. Minister, to pursue this little suggestion that I make about the potential enhancement of our environmental programing in the province.
Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
Mr. Chairperson: 12.3.(f) Wildlife (3) Habitat and Land Management (c) Grant Assistance $645,000--pass.
12.3.(f)(4) Conservation Data and Nongame Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $329,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $142,600--pass.
12.3.(f)(5) Canada-Manitoba Waterfowl Damage Prevention Agreement $334,800--pass.
12.3.(f)(6) Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Initiative $225,000--pass.
12.3.(g) Computer Graphics (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $517,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $54,700--pass.
12.3.(h) Habitat Enhancement Fund $50,000--pass.
12.3.(j) Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund $432,100--pass.
12.3.(k) Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit $235,200--pass.
Resolution 12.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $42,568,900 for Natural Resources, Resource Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Resolution 12.4. Land Information Centre (a) Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $577,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $470,100--pass.
12.4.(b) Crown Lands Operations (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $549,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,082,500--pass.
12.4.(c) Crown Lands Registry (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $233,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $150,300--pass.
12.4.(d) Survey Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,425,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $480,500--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1,482,400)--pass.
12.4.(e) Remote Sensing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $645,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $127,200--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($23,700)--pass.
12.4.(f) Distribution Centre (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $365,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $278,800; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations $95,000--pass.
12.4.(g) Land Mapping Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $423,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $612,700--pass.
Resolution 12.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,820,700 for Natural Resources, Land Information Centre, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Resolution 12.5. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Equipment and Infrastructure $535,600--pass; (b) Water Projects $5,290,400--pass; (c) Park Facilities $5,092,300--pass; (d) Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives (1,500,000)--pass.
Resolution 12.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,418,300 for Natural Resources, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
12.6. Flood Proofing Programs - Capital $48,800,000--pass.
Resolution 12.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $48,800,000 for Natural Resources, Flood Proofing Programs - Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
We will now return to the Minister's Salary. The staff has already gone, so we can deal with it right away. We are on Resolution 12.1. Administration and Finance (a) Minister's Salary $26,300--pass.
Resolution 12.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,910,500 for Natural Resources, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
This concludes the Department of Natural Resources. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the minister and his staff.
* (1510)