Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I have a correction to make. I put some numbers on the record last week which I read them as dollars dedicated to certain areas, and it should have been quantities of products.
So, if one were to go to page 3575 of the Hansard, in the paragraph which says: "I can just give a little bit more of an idea here on specific amounts of money," when I said money, it should have been pieces of information that were available. So we take the dollar sign off of it, and that is quantity of product which has been provided, rather than dollars.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to make that correction.
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr. Chairperson, I believe the minister was asked a number of questions at the end of Estimates debate, and there have been a number of items we have requested. I wonder if he can provide answers to some or most of them today.
Mr. Downey: I would ask him if he would highlight again some of those questions, so that I can make sure I deal with them in a priority area, or does he want me to go to Hansard and deal with them from there?
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, there were several items regarding the Tourism Estimates specifically which the minister was asked to respond to. He was also asked to give the department's understanding, or his understanding, of how Manitoba's $600-million trade deficit is dealt with. There were a number of other questions that he agreed that he would provide information on in Estimates. I do not have Hansard with me and so I cannot give him the list, but they are readily available in Hansard, pertaining to earlier parts of our Estimates debate.
Mr. Downey: Well, Mr. Chairman, we are dealing with the Tourism section at this particular time, so it was my intention to give the answers dealing with tourism at this particular time rather than going back to do the other questions that had been asked previously. So I will deal with tourism at this particular time.
As I understood it, one of the questions as it relates to tourism is there are very different statistics used by the department from Statistics Canada and Tourist Scope statistics. There seems to be a continuing divergence between these two sources. I will just go over the reply that I have had prepared for me, and that is the Tourist Scope report includes only overnight trips. Statistics Canada, Canada Customs reports, include same-day entry, as Manitoba has a significant number of same-day activity related to festivals and events, shopping and entertainment, due to the close proximity with the U.S. Travel Manitoba purchases both same-day and overnight trips to Manitoba, thereby utilizing the complete border statistics. So basically what I am saying is we are using all sources that are available to us.
Some of the other information which I will put on the record, Mr. Chairman, is using both the Stats Canada but also the Tourist Scope which has been referred to. The numbers are comparable.
For example, when we look at--first of all, the first quarter results from the U.S. were up by 7 percent for the first quarter. In the Tourist Scope, the number is, overall, 6.7, so it is very close to the same thing. The foreign visitors as it relates to, which we use, was from Stats Canada, foreign was 34 percent. It is actually 39.9 percent out of Tourist Scope. Overall, we said 5.7 percent, and Tourist Scope is actually 7.9. So the numbers in both sets of statistics are pretty comparable.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I am interested to hear that because we have generally used Tourist Scope on the basis that the real value of tourism is obviously enhanced substantially by people staying overnight. One-day shopping provides less value to the country, but if indeed the numbers are proportionate, then the questions we have raised over the years obviously still stand.
I do not have the most recent numbers for the first quarter with me, I do not think, unless I am mistaken. No, I do not, but for last year, January to December, total visitors were down 1.2 percent in Manitoba. That continues a long-term trend which in the 10-year period, 1987 to 1996, Canada was up 15.7 percent, Manitoba down 14.6 percent, a 30 percent swing in overall travel. If the minister is now saying that Tourist Scope is proportionally showing the same trends as cross-border tracking in total, then comments we have made many times in the House and in Estimates would seem to be still applicable that our experience vis-a-vis Canada is quite negative.
I note that there are some other provinces that last year fell. Quebec fell 1.3 percent. P.E.I. is too small really to measure, but only Quebec and Saskatchewan had declines. The rest of the provinces had increases, albeit relatively small, except for B.C. which was up 4.4 percent in total. So I wonder why the minister has always suggested that tourism is increasing in Manitoba when in fact the reverse is true, that over the period that we have measured of the last 10 years, in fact, our total numbers are substantially down.
* (1600)
Mr. Downey: I do not agree, Mr. Chairman. Our tourism is in a growth pattern, and if he is measuring using last year as an example, we did see in fact a minimal increase last year, even with the devastating flood that people had to deal with. That in itself did nothing to help the numbers, but we in fact still came up with a positive increase as a percentage with our tourism growth last year.
So the numbers I have put on the record are a more complete picture and are overall. It includes the overnight trips. So I do not agree with the member in his comments that we are seeing a reduction in tourism. That is not the case at all.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I am not asking the minister to agree with my comments. I am asking him to comment on the fact that Tourist Scope over 10 years shows a 14.8 percent decline in our total number of one night or more visits from all sources--United States plus all others. His numbers seem continually to reference an increase. I do not know how he can say on the one hand that both sets of statistics are comparable, on the other hand that somehow a 10-year trend is not significant.
Canada was growing at an average, simple arithmetic average of 1.5 percent a year. We were going down at 1.5 percent a year in total. We peaked in tourism in the 1980s, and it has been a downhill pattern ever since. That, of course, was why last year the government presumably saw a problem and decided that it would change its approach to marketing. If everything was as rosy as the minister seems to think it was, there is no earthly reason why they should have changed their strategy, if it was working. The reason they changed it, presumably, was because it is not working.
So I stand by the numbers from Tourist Scope. While I accept that it does not include same-day travel, but the minister has just finished telling us that it is proportionate and very similar. So I take him at his word and tell him that the trend has not changed over this last year. He still lost visitors year over year, 1.2 percent to be exact, whereas Canada was growing 1.6 percent. Those numbers exactly mirror the 10-year trend. I would invite the minister to take a look at 10 years worth of Tourist Scope numbers, and if he wishes, I would be glad to share a copy of this chart, although I do not have the requisite three numbers. I had not intended to table it, but I would certainly be glad to let him have it if he would like to see it.
Mr. Downey: I still disagree. The first quarter, which I made reference to, shows an increase from the U.S. In fact, we look at overall: U.S. was up by 6.7 percent for the first quarter of 1998 over 1997.
An Honourable Member: One-quarter does not a decade make.
Mr. Downey: The point I would continue to make is that other areas of which the overall increase was 7.9 percent. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree that the numbers, the overall expenditures in Manitoba in the tourism sector are continually growing. So the numbers of visitors are going up, the numbers of dollars that are being expended. The occupancy in our hotels continue to be at extremely satisfactory levels. Of course, looking at the next year with this year building into the Pan American Games, the pre-Pan American Games activities, plus the Pan American Games next year, I think will augur extremely well for the benefits for Manitoba's tourism industry. So again we will have to agree to disagree. I think the numbers that I am presenting here today actually are showing positive growth.
The other point I would make--and he keeps wanting to say that the program was not working. Mr. Chairman, I will go back to it again and say there is a process that has been put in place by the Department of Tourism to make sure that we are reflecting tourists who have come and who have left. We have interviewed them and asked them what they would like for holidays and activities. We have, in fact, been able to respond to that type of advertising and product that they are looking for.
So, again, I would have to say that I think the numbers that we have demonstrate as much of growth as there is, and he is again trying to paint the picture that things are not doing as well. Again, we will have to agree to disagree.
Mr. Sale: For the record, we are not disagreeing. Statistics Canada's data, which the minister says is proportional, are the data sources. So I am not disagreeing with the minister. Statistics Canada is. They are saying that overnight and longer travel and stays to this province have declined significantly over the last decade. Their data show last year to the end of December, 12 months, the decline continued.
I am glad that there has been turnaround, if there has been, in the Tourist Scope numbers for the first quarter of the year. I have not seen those numbers as yet. I will be glad to see them. But that turnaround would have to go on for a long, long time before we would catch up to the peak tourism years that we had when people were coming here for longer periods of time and staying here.
Mr. Chairperson, I asked on Thursday whether the department could provide us with an example of how they were marketing into niche areas. There are any number of those areas. I wonder if the minister is able to supply that information.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I do have a package prepared. It is specially done; it is done up in a nice, blue cover for the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), which I am sure he will appreciate, the colour, but I can go through it individually if he likes, and I will just give him a brief outline as to how we do it.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairman, I would be happy just to receive the material. We have a lot of questions to go through, and I am sure the minister does not want to spend any more time in Estimates than necessary. I would be really glad to review the material.
Mr. Downey: I will take him up on his offer, Mr. Chairman, and provide the information to the member.
Mr. Sale: Manitoba Tourism wants to promote ecotourism. I do not know whether this is about ecotourism or not, but it has said it wanted to promote ecotourism. Many tourists go to Oak Hammock Marsh and to Churchill and, although they may wish to see other aspects of Manitoba's interesting ecological regions, there does not seem to be much availability of knowledge about many other interesting destinations that we have in our province. I am wondering what Manitoba Tourism is doing specifically to broaden the awareness of ecotourism opportunities.
Mr. Downey: One thing that we are doing through the Department of Tourism is to do some regional tourism forums that work with the different regions of the province that will help them identify what product they have as it relates to some of the activities that they have within those different regions, more or less a regional process. We could talk about the desert at Carberry as one of them; the swinging bridge at Souris, to identify some of these area activities which can be brought together under the overall global tourism advertising for the province. So it is a matter of the communities identifying themselves what is available and then proceeding to bring that into the provincial campaign as part of the overall advertising package that is put out.
But the first thing that we have done was to make sure that they clearly identified their region or their product within their region to do that. We also have the tourism industry. The people who sell product are very much involved in a lot of the workshops that are being carried out. Again, he clearly identified Churchill as being one of the main, traditionally one of the main areas, particularly as it relates to international traffic, the Japanese in particular, whether it is the polar bears or the beluga whales and/or the tundra and birders. That is a major, major area for birders from international communities to come to.
* (1610)
Again, I have referred to some similar examples. Another area, when it comes to ecotourism, is the native cultures, which I believe have a tremendous opportunity for growth and development, particularly in the German market and other international markets as it relates to how well that is being accepted by those communities. Again, it is a matter of bringing the different regions together so that we can take that package of material that they have or the locations that they have and advertise them as part of the overall provincial activity.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I am glad the minister referenced aboriginal tourism. I had an opportunity to review the Guide to the Aboriginal Experience: Live the Legacy in Canada. It is a very glossy full-colour presentation. Manitoba's section in it is depressingly bleak.
We have any number of First Nations powwows. The biggest days in the province, of course, are the Peguis Days, and they are not even listed here. I am wondering whether the province, or whoever was responsible for this, was charging people to be listed in this publication. It is a publication that is put out by the Canadian Tourism Commission, CTC, or whether Manitoba had any involvement in actually seeing what was listed in here, but I am wondering if the minister is aware that the total number of events to do with Manitoba aboriginal tourism listed in this guide which goes all over the world is three: one in May, the Paul Hunting Hawk [phonetic] Memorial Traditional Powwow at Rolling River; in August, Pine Fort Days at Spruce Woods Provincial Park, which, I guess in a way, is an aboriginal event, not entirely though; Opaskwayak Indian Days in The Pas, no dates listed, just in August. The biggest ones, of course, are not even here, as I said, Peguis, and there are any number of other aboriginal opportunities for specific things that could be done.
For example, in terms of the actual places, there is no listing at all of the Clear Lake programs that are within Riding Mountain National Park. There is just nothing about powwow days in Winnipeg. There are some very large and very exciting festivals in Winnipeg that are sponsored by our First Nations people. I mean, this is an abysmal record of what is going on in Manitoba, one event in May, two events in August. Certainly I would not call that promoting aboriginal tourism.
Mr. Downey: Maybe the member may want to reflect that it is aboriginal people from Manitoba that sit as part of the CTC committee from Manitoba, so he can target his comments and his criticisms to those aboriginals directly. They are the ones that are responsible for making sure aboriginal events are part of that advertising that he put on there. As a province, and that is who we are dealing with now, all the aboriginal or the majority of aboriginal events are part of the Events Guide in the provincial advertising. So we will make sure his comments go to the committee of CTC, of which there are First Nations people from the province of Manitoba sitting on that committee, and we will make sure they get his comments.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, are there any provincial representatives sitting on this committee?
Mr. Downey: Not on the subcommittee of the CTC. Not on the aboriginal tourism committee.
Mr. Sale: Are there any members of Manitoba's department sitting on CTC strategy or publications development?
Mr. Downey: Just to further elaborate, we are there on some committees by invitation of the CTC overall board as to our involvement, but we are not, in fact--it is the First Nations people of Manitoba that have been invited to participate in this particular committee that he is referring to.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister tries to play politics by implying a threat that he will pass on comments that are critical of aboriginal people. My comments are critical of Manitoba that says it wants to be promoting aboriginal tourism when it allows a publication to go forward in which it has at least some ability to influence what is in there, that is so incomplete in terms of what Manitoba does have to offer in regard to aboriginal people. If the minister is telling us that he really has no influence at all over what goes into this publication from the Canadian Tourism Commission, why would that be, why would Manitoba sit by and allow this kind of incomplete picture of our province to be put forward by Canada?
Mr. Downey: Again, Mr. Chairman, we do not have direct input as to the publication that is provided. We can provide all the information and have been asked to do so. It is their choice whether it is part of the overall package that he is referring to. I am not trying to be negative about it. I think it is constructive criticism that the member is raising, and I would hope he does not take exception to the fact that I am going to pass on his comments as it relates to how they in fact have Manitoba represented.
I will reiterate again, the native, the majority of the native activities are part of the Events Guide. We have spent money and will continue to do so to try and promote the aboriginal tourism package in the province of Manitoba. I believe strongly that it is a very marketable product which the world will want to come and participate in, so it is a matter of taking a positive attitude, not a political narrow-minded approach, just giving us a hard time because we have not emphasized it enough. There is a process in place. If he is not happy with that process, we shall review it and take it to the board of the CTC to make sure that we do have in fact more aboriginal presence in the package.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister for that commitment. Rural operators of tourism opportunities have claimed for some years that they need an integrated and much more effective signage program. A signage program has been delayed since 1996. When will a new signage program be fully implemented?
Mr. Downey: Again, I have to say, Mr. Chairman, that there have been frustrations from other areas, particularly within Tourism. We have been anxious to get it put in place. We now are going to see some of the signage going up this spring along our highways and our byways that are going to be advertising the tourism product of the province of Manitoba. So you can anticipate over the next few months seeing a considerable amount of signage. We would like to have it fully implemented before next year's Pan American Games activities. So the Signage Program is in fact in the process of being put in place.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, at one of their recent major conferences, which our party had a staffperson as a delegate, some ecotourism and adventure tourist operators reported having serious difficulties getting liability insurance. I think, for the small operators, this is a great difficulty. What can the province do to assist in this regard that will maintain high safety standards but also make liability insurance, in particular, affordable?
* (1620)
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I am fully aware of that, and I appreciate him raising it. Again it is an issue, particularly in dealing on some of the riding stables. Some of the people that are providing tourism activities for people that--there can be for people who are not familiar with a certain kind of activity, there has to be some liability. We are looking at some areas of the United States. I know that it was raised recently. Some areas of the United States have legislation that in fact does provide some protection to the operators of these activities. That is part of a review that is being done by the department, and, quite frankly, I would like to see a little more aggressive approach taken because I think it is a deterrent for some people to further expand and grow the product that is out there. Again, it is a matter of that work being done on it, but I do know of particularly two states that have had reference made that they have put in legislation that gives a greater protection to the operators of those facilities.
I note the concern and also the Canadian Tourism Council--I am sorry, the Tourism Commission is working on the issue as well to try and protect or make a product available to protect these operators.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister is, I am sure, aware that Manitoba Health pays the liability insurance or a large share of it for many doctors, and I think the quid pro quo is that doctors are licensed by a competent authority. So the implication here is that, if there is going to be some involvement, there also has to be some kind of standard of safety in terms of guide training, equipment maintenance, equipment standards, et cetera. We have had tragedies on the west coast with whale-watching expeditions where operators intensely competing for dollars have gone out in unsafe weather conditions, or they have gone out in crafts that perhaps were not suited for the weather conditions.
When might the industry expect to hear some progress, substantive progress on this issue from the government?
Mr. Downey: Appreciating that there are a lot of jobs that have to be done and the Tourism portfolio is a major area of responsibility, I would personally like to have some results on it sooner rather than later. I would not want to put a time frame, but I would hope that we could have something for particularly next summer season. We are into this summer season at this particular time. I would hope we would have something for next summer season. At least, is there some legislative requirements that may have to be done, regulatory, or what would be necessary to further give the consuming public some assurance that they have coverage, but on the other hand, make it affordable to the operator. So I am going to put a time frame on within the year, that we could have something more definitive and any action that may need to be taken, that we could in fact move by that time.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, is the minister or his staff working with a committee or a group or association in regard to this particular issue at the present time?
Mr. Downey: The answer is yes. They are working both with the CTC and the association that is working to develop the trails, that have particularly some of these people who are working to develop the former rail lines that have unfortunately been abandoned, but some communities see that as a potential opportunity for trails and also with the farm vacation groups as well.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, some people who have reviewed our Tourism web site have made the comment that it is very plain in comparison with many others that are up, that it seems to be out of date. It does not appear to have been substantially changed since it was first set up in 1995. What is happening here to make this site more exciting, more accessible, more interesting?
Mr. Downey: Always room for improvement, Mr. Chairman, and of course I can assure the member that we are now working to develop a new web site, and hopefully by July or August of this year we will have it in place.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, will that site be much more interactive in terms of access to many of the links that could at least be used to explore Manitoba more effectively? There is a range of educational links, for example, as well as specific offerings by various tourism operators that would substantially enhance families in particular, interest in the province, and I think particularly of the exciting program that River East School Division has launched to allow Manitoba children and any others that are interested to experience our local history and to interact with real people who are playing the roles of some of the historical figures in Manitoba. It is a very exciting curriculum. It has been designed by a number of younger Manitobans working with River East School Division, and I would commend that particular site to the province as, I think, a model of how you can engage kids, probably in the eight to 15-year-old range in really having an opportunity to explore history in an exciting way because they have an opportunity through the Net to actually correspond with historical figures and find out what was really happening to them through volunteers that have agreed to be part of this program.
Mr. Downey: I do not disagree with the member in that we will have a considerably greater capability than before. So, basically, the start of his question, I would say yes to it.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, it does not appear from at least my scan of things that our winter tourism opportunities are being very significantly advertised in the media. They are listed in a seasonal Events Guide, but there does not appear to be much active promotion, other than the passive promotion of the guide. Is that a policy issue or is that simply my misunderstanding of what is happening?
Mr. Downey: Well, Mr. Chairman, that will be part of our new overall campaign which we will be launching. Winter tourism is a major part of it, and it is special events, i.e., the Festival du Voyageur, which, we believe, is a major draw for the midwinter time.
To make it short, with the snowmobiling and all of the activities that are going along with that--unfortunately with the numbers of losses, one has to make sure that the safety factor is continually emphasized because it has, in fact, been a very serious situation this last year with the numbers of people that were lost, but I think the record of properly groomed trails, properly managed trails and people trained properly as to driving properly and a whole host of things can well be a major additive to our overall winter sporting activities.
So it is an area which we are going to certainly focus on. In fact, the winter adventure will be Snow Wonder: the clear, blue skies, exhilarating fresh air, glistening snow. Winter adventure: we have ski trails, the festival I talked about, ice-fishing, snowmobiling, lodge and holiday resorts, basically a whole lot of the ongoing world-class dining that we have in our province, and it is a major product which we will be putting a lot more emphasis on.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I hope profoundly that next winter is not like last winter, in terms of clear skies and the kind of northern lights that we have enjoyed in this province up until El Nino struck last year.
Mr. Chairperson, Manitoba apparently has decided not to participate in Canadian Tourism Council television ads to the U.S.A., Europe and Asia because of the expense, the cost of these, and the perception that the bulk of the ads seem to feature the eastern provinces. I will not quarrel with that decision. There is not much sense spending money to bring people to Ontario or Quebec, although the minister may wish to say that that is still a good thing because they are coming to Canada, and maybe they will come on to Manitoba.
I am wondering whether Manitoba has considered partnering with Saskatchewan and Alberta as the Maritime provinces did to run ads that were focused on the Maritimes and defray the costs somewhat of this kind of program.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, we are doing a considerable amount more with Saskatchewan. We believe it is a region which we have to work co-operatively with, and we are. I do not believe we have done any television ads yet, but we are doing a considerable amount of print activity and other promotional activity working in co-operation with Saskatchewan.
I can also say that not too long ago there was a major co-operative program with North Dakota which I think, again, it is a region of North America that if we can attract people to this region for certain events, the United States border is something that can be crossed. It changes. Sometimes it is easier; sometimes it is not.
The member has had his share of activities trying to help in that regard to try and take away some of the criticisms that have taken place and some of the problems some border crossings have had, but to make a long story short is, yes, we are working particularly with Saskatchewan. To more complete the answer, we do some as well with Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C. The four provinces do a considerable amount as it relates to trying to attract some of the bus tours into the northern region.
We are also now working with the Northwest Territories to further enhance in a co-operative way how we can all benefit from bringing tourists into this northwest region of the country.
* (1630)
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, we are told that CTC focuses largely on mostly eastern centres, that their buys are along that central and eastern corridor down the seaboard because that is where the bulk of the tourists come to--Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes. Has the question been raised with CTC about marketing into places like Kansas City, Dallas, the midwestern corridor that we have begun and, I think, effectively begun to make a major focus of our linkage with the United States, the midwest corridor?
Mr. Downey: I am told by the department we are working to influence them to target regions such as the member has referred to. I think it is important. It is an area which we believe there can be considerable traffic encouraged to come to the province, and again it supports some of the work that has been done previously, particularly by some of our lodgers, lodges, and outfitters that go into that market.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, could the minister share with us some of the examples of the shared- strategy ads that have already taken place? I have not been aware of them. I would be interested in seeing them.
Mr. Downey: Well, I can see if I can find the generosity in my soul to find that information for him, but I will in fact try and find out some information and provide it to him. It may even be in the document which I tabled to him, some of the shared advertising, at the very back of the document. If not, I will make sure that we get a complete list of shared advertising that we do.
Mr. Sale: A quick glance through, I did not see shared ads, but there may be other material.
A number of Manitoba operators, particularly in rural Manitoba, lodge operators in specific terms, have expressed to us their belief that Manitoba's promotions at trade and sports shows in the United States are weak and dull in comparison to other participants at those conferences. I do not expect the minister to criticize his staff or his department, but that is the feedback that we have been given that, in comparison, we do not shine at these shows. Has anything been done in recent days or in this year to spruce up or sharpen up our presentations at trade shows where tourism is being promoted?
Mr. Downey: I am getting a different impression from the industry than what the member is leaving on the record. I would not accept that, because I have to say that we have been getting some very positive comments. I guess the other is the proof is in the results that these lodges and outfitters are getting for business. I do not know too many of them that are not booked to capacity. In fact, very much they are booked well into the future. So, I guess the end of the day is, if the product is working and we are filling the lodges and people are doing well, that is what the objective, I think, is. I will also take note of his criticisms of what he is saying, so we can follow up and make corrections, if in fact there are some corrections. Possibly he could give us the names of some of those people who have been putting the criticisms to him, so we could in fact follow up and work to improve it, if we can in fact know who to deal with.
Mr. Sale: I will check with my colleague in particular who gave me this specific information about this, the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). The comment also came from workshops at the large conference that our staff attended. I cannot tell him who was at those workshops, but I am sure that he knows who was there, because he would have a list of participants and it was in the workshop in regard to trade show presentations.
I have a couple of questions about historical material. A question has been raised by a member of the historical community, the sort of volunteer community, that the booklets which the minister has probably seen in the past--Manitoba's First Explorers, the Beginning of Jewish Community in Manitoba--there are many different titles in this series. These were put out, these particular ones in 1992. We have been told that these are no longer available. We also have an example of a somewhat older publication, The Honourable Joseph Dubuc, KCMG, part of Our Heritage series that goes back many years. Mr. Chair, 1981, Honourable Norma Price, a former Conservative Speaker, I think, was she as well?
An Honourable Member: No, Minister of Labour.
Mr. Sale: Just the Minister of Labour. Well, not just the Minister of Labour. Also, obviously, Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources minister because her name is in the pamphlet.
Concern has been raised that the quality of our publications on particular issues has declined sharply, and the availability of them is down to very little, at least apparently are not available at The Forks anymore, at least not on display, so people do not get to see them. I understand that they are probably expensive, but there are also ways in which we engage people in our own history. I wonder what the policy of the government is in regard to such publications now.
Mr. Downey: I will try and be helpful. Those same questions were asked in the appropriate department: Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. I think the member going over Hansard will find out what the minister indicated at that particular time. I know I was not here for the whole questioning on it, but I know that it was raised during Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. We will get the answers that the member asked. If they are not in Hansard, we will further communicate with Culture, Heritage, and Citizenship, of which these come under.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I know they were being raised in that area as well, but the point here is that they are of interest to tourists. It is part of the resource that we make available to people who come here. So we were interested in both departments' answers to the availability of these kinds of historic materials.
Mr. Downey: Anything that can be helpful to tourism to satisfy the demand, we will take a look at. If in fact there were some policy changes or some product that is not in fact available and we see it as a need, we will discuss with the department how that should be in fact considered. But again, we will take it under advisement at this particular time, so we can follow up on it.
Mr. Sale: I want to turn now to the Prairie Dog Central. The minister may recall--I hope he will recall--that from 1995 onwards I have raised this issue in Estimates. I believe in the first year that I raised it, I made some fairly strong comments about the unique resource that the Prairie Dog represents.
I had the opportunity to attend one of the large community gatherings at the Hitch'n Post Restaurant in the late part of last year I believe it was, enjoyed a wonderful dinner at that somewhat unique establishment, and listened to the concerns of, I think, probably in the order of 300 people. I am not sure entirely how many were there, but I believe it was about 300. I think the deputy minister attended that meeting, if I am not mistaken, as well as some representatives from the Department of Rural Development and the assistant deputy minister for Tourism.
* (1640)
The gist of that meeting, if I could attempt to summarize it--I am sure the minister is aware of it--but the gist of it, as far as I could see, was that there was considerable local enthusiasm to see the Prairie Dog operate on this stretch of track that would be about the same length as the old trip but just moved slightly further northwest with a gap in the rails to Winnipeg, in effect isolating the train on this piece of track. But there was also, from a number of people, quite a number, skepticism about the business plan that had been put forward by the operators or the proposed operators. Those questions were not answered at all in the meeting by the proponents. Perhaps it would not have been fair to expect them to be ready to answer the questions at that particular meeting.
I left that meeting with the distinct impression that the current volunteer association, which has done amazing work over the approximately 26 years or 27 years that the train has been operating, has done an astounding job to maintain the enthusiasm of their members and to keep this unique resource running in Winnipeg, out of Winnipeg, I got the distinct impression from their senior members who spoke that they were at the limit of their volunteer resources. I think they made the point a number of times that they were simply not able to commit to putting out more volunteer time than they already had done, that they were stretched to the very limit. So they were asking for people to come forward and take on some of the burden both of raising funds and ultimately of operating the resource, at least in the form of a board and corps of volunteers.
There was very serious doubt I think expressed by a number of spokespersons--and I did not speak at the meeting. I listened and made lots of notes--but there was very serious doubt expressed about whether, in the longer term, sufficient people would go out of the city, even though it is not a long way out, but out to Inkster to avail themselves of a ride on the train that essentially was the same ride year after year after year, that there was not much doubt that people would come in the initial period, but there was some substantial doubt that this pattern would necessarily continue.
There was also concern about whether the train itself could run as often as was being required under the new work plan, the proposed business plan, which would more than double the number of runs per year and, therefore, presumably more than double the volunteer workload in terms of operating the train. So those are some of the concerns. There were others raised and I can refer to them.
In the interim since that meeting, I understand that the volunteer association has raised more than its target of dollars, but that it still is substantially short of the total that it needs, in part because the city of Winnipeg appears reluctant to commit funds to an operation which is not any longer based clearly within the city, and of course the city is the owner of the locomotive and one of the historic coaches, also in part I think because perhaps, while wanting to be enthusiastic, the province shares some of the concerns that were raised about the viability of the business plan.
I think this is an absolutely critical resource that Manitoba has that is quite unique. There are very few historic steam trains operating that are anywhere near the vintage of the Prairie Dog. There are a couple, but there are not very many across North America. As I have said in other years, I think that Ms. Clarke can probably confirm that there are actually more members of rail fan clubs in North America than there are Manitobans, that rail fan clubs' membership exceeds a million members in North America, and so it is an absolutely unique resource.
I have for years, long before I became elected--I guess I grew up as a train buff in a train town where there was nothing I enjoyed more than spending time at the rail yards. I think, like many Canadian kids who grew up with steam trains, there is something compelling about them. It just has never made sense to me that we did not move heaven and earth to have this train running out of Union Station.
I know that the major railways have said we do not want old puffers running on our main lines--liability and difficulty in scheduling and all the excuses that are raised--but the government is not without leverage on the railroads. It seems to me that it is giving up too much to strand this train permanently. No matter how much that local community wants, this is a resource that belongs at least to all Winnipeggers and I think to all Manitobans.
We have festivals the length and breadth of this province, at least some of which are on rail lines, and the minister will recall it runs to the Corn and Apple Festival. It runs to Selkirk. I think there have been runs out toward Niverville. There have been runs to Lac du Bonnet. I just cannot see why we would not be building a whole strategy around this train and around the development of tourism, family tourism, history tourism, fur trade tourism, buffalo hunt tourism. There are all kinds of historical opportunities to build a strategy upon, the centre piece of which is this historic train.
I believe that in the longer term it is probably possible to attract other locomotives. B.C., of course, runs the Royal Nelson on its B.C. rail line up Howe Sound. CN and CP both have a stable of fully restored locomotives in eastern Canada. The museum in Ottawa has a number of fully operating restored locomotives. Jasper traded its old locomotive some years ago, and it has been restored. The one that is there now, of course, is not in running condition, but the one that was there has been restored. I believe it was a Northern, if I am not mistaken.
So I am wondering where the government is going on this. I do not think there is any resource we have that is more potentially positive for family tourism into Winnipeg in the summertime than this locomotive and its historic cars. I do believe that the volunteer association has contributed a great deal, but it may need resources it does not now have in order to continue to play the kind of part that it has been playing.
So I would appreciate an indication of where the government is going on this and what it sees as the opportunity in regard to this historic train.
Mr. Downey: I thank the member for his comments, Mr. Chairman. It gives me the opportunity to make a few brief remarks as it relates to the overall future of the Prairie Dog and the fact that we, the government of Manitoba, also want to acknowledge the Vintage Locomotive Society for their continued ongoing interest and hard work in maintaining what is a piece of Manitoba heritage and their commitment financially and in time to try and make sure that it is, in fact, preserved.
Mr. Chairman, this goes back even a little further than the member takes it back. This comes about because with the federal government, with the allowance of rail line abandonment to the magnitude of which it has taken place, and the loss of the Steep Rock line, which this Prairie Dog locomotive found to be quite conducive to using part of it, to go as far as it did and then return with the passengers that it had, and it actually was working quite well. Again, the unfortunate thing is that we saw the loss of that line, not only because for the use of the Prairie Dog, but we also saw the loss of the line for the movement of limestone out of Steep Rock, which has, again, other implications financially to the province. So the loss of the rail line has to be acknowledged as well.
I would also, though, acknowledge the fact that, when this came to a crunch time, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) was able to get a delay in the abandonment of the piece of line that this runs on for a little longer, to try and get some decisions made as to what would the future of that line or that part of the activity be, so that some options could be looked at. Again, the city and the province and the federal government have been looking at as to how support could be put in place. There was a request for $1.2 million, of which we were invited to be a third of it. The Locomotive Society was prepared to put a third in, and has raised more than its share. Of course, the federal government was being asked to participate as well, but there was some reluctance.
* (1650)
One can appreciate the city's approach because they, quite frankly saw it as not as direct a benefit to the city when it did not come inside the city. As politicians, I guess one can understand why they had some reservations, but that does not mean to say that there still is not a future for it. I think it calls upon us and we are seeing that take place, that the Lotteries Corporation is, in fact, doing a review as to how that may fit in with their overall activities, keeping it separate from the connotation of being strictly done for gambling. How can it fit into the overall McPhillips Street Station and casino, as basically a separate tourism attraction, but still being part of the overall bringing more people to that site--not for gambling in particular, but to tie into an overall tourism package? That work is currently being carried out.
One also has to appreciate the fact that we are dealing with a piece of heritage equipment that is not youthful any longer, and there are limitations as to how many trips it could make. In fact, if one were to give it a heavy tourism schedule, whether it would be to go to Winnipeg Beach, whether it would be to go to Lower Fort Garry, where it could in fact be part of a steamship or a paddle wheel or a boat trip back, or one way or the other--an all-inclusive-type package that some people see as a potential, but there may have to be some fill-in with some diesel locomotive power that would give the older engine a rest for part of the week. So one has to take all of these things into consideration. That, in fact, is being done.
I am waiting, hopefully, to have a report very shortly from the department as it relates to the outcome of the work that is being done by Lotteries. Quite frankly, I see this as a more complete package for the tourism side, but one never wants to underestimate--it would in fact cause some difficulties for the community that it has traditionally run into--that whole Warren-Grosse Isle area. Again, it is not doing anything much for them, but if the rail line goes, what are the alternatives? It is obvious that the rail line has been taken out to a particular point.
Could the province carry the whole responsibility of doing that financial package? I do not believe so. Again, I think that the right people are involved. I understand that the Vintage Locomotive Society has, in fact, been working with the Lotteries Corporation in the study that they are doing. Hopefully, before long, we can get some kind of a successful report as to all parties agreeing to the capability and the work that can be done to enhance the overall tourism package.
The member opposite is not going to get disagreement from me that it is not a good piece of Canadian and Manitoba heritage to preserve and to use, to maximize, because I can as well remember as a young person living in rural Manitoba, a considerable distance from the city of Winnipeg, every week when the steam locomotive pulled into a little community with whatever it had on it, particularly the mail, everybody gathered around the station. It had some romance to it. Quite frankly, when the winter struck, particularly in the early '50s, when there were so many snowstorms, it had to come through the Souris River, which was usually plugged with snow, and it was quite often that all the local people were called down to shovel the steamers out of the river flat because they got stuck and they had to go and help move it through--snow plows, the whole business.
It was a major part of opening up the Prairies, steam power. Quite frankly, it was really a piece of our history that we do not want to let slide away from us. We will do what we can within our power to make sure it is maintained and added to the overall tourism package so that his grandchildren, all those people that want their children and grandchildren to be a part of it have an option of doing that.
I am not sure whether there is anything more that I can add at this particular time, but we are supportive of it. At this point, I am not sure how much resources we would have to put into it but are prepared to consider what the report brings forward.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the minister's comments, and I had no idea he was that old, that he would remember all these things. I thought he was a much younger person than he is indicating. But, clearly, he and I both had the same kind of childhoods, because I have the same kind of stories. I do look forward to when my grandchild and the one that hopefully will be born in July can ride on this train again.
I would like to ask the minister if he is in a position to make a commitment that whatever decisions are made, wherever the train is to run, it will not be stranded on a dead-end piece of rail that is not connected at least in some--even if it is not a highly used connection, that nevertheless the train will not be stranded.
Mr. Downey: I am having a hard time understanding what he is talking about, Mr. Chairman. We will do what we can to make sure it is an operational activity within the province. I do not know what he refers to as a dead-end track or rail line.
Mr. Sale: I would be glad to clarify.
Mr. Downey: Yes, I would like a clarification, please.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the proposal that was being advanced over the wintertime was to operate on a stretch of track from somewhere out on Inkster up to Warren. There would not be a connection between the Inkster station and the main CN rail system. So the train would not be able to move--for example, to be towed to an American movie location in the midwestern United States, to give one example, would not be able to be used for historic special events because it would not be able to get off that piece of rail. That is what I was referring to.
Mr. Downey: He does not want it stranded, is really what he is saying, so that it is not available to be moved into other capacities. I appreciate what he is saying, and I do not know what capacity or power I would have, but we will do what we can to make sure that it is accessible to other activities that would be beneficial for the promotion of the Locomotive Society, the province of Manitoba and tourism.
Mr. Sale: Would the minister be able to undertake to revisit the discussions with, I suppose it is primarily CN, although CP is also involved, in regard to access to Union Station? I just ask him, and I am sure that this is not a new idea to him. I have promoted it for many years to anybody that would listen, and I am sure I am not the only one who has thought of this, but the sight of that train sitting at and leaving from and returning to Union Station is simply something that would excite both local and tourism comment, I am sure. It would feature in all kinds of TV coverage, and to me it is the kind of unique magnet that we need to make family tourism take off.
I agree with him that given the age of the equipment, we could not run two daily trips, but we could probably run three or four times a week to Selkirk with a stop at the Lower Fort. I know there has to be water and coaling provided, but the cost of doing that is relatively modest by comparison with what the province has spent on other destination-tourism programs by comparison.
The minister made the reference to the round trip possibility. I shared that vision with a committee in 1995. I have certainly talked about it before that. I am sure that many others had, too, so I am not claiming any ownership of that. It is not a new idea, but what I think is needed is new political energy to really brace the railways with the possibility for their own goodwill and their own advertising as the kind of positive commitment to their own heritage and the goodwill of the communities in which they do business.
* (1700)
There was a time when CP and CN simply did not want to be reminded that they were ever in the passenger business. They were embarrassed about the public anger over their departure from that business, and they did not want to be reminded of it at all. We know that they have not been the easiest of landlords for VIA Rail to run on their trackage, and they have not always made it easy for VIA to succeed either. I think that probably they would now be sufficiently over that period in their history that they might be willing to think about the good citizenship, the good corporate citizenship, involved in making that history live again for anybody, and that they might see there was value for them. Certainly, it would be within the province's capacity to confer some value through some recognition of the contribution that CN and CP might make.
So would the minister be prepared to commit to vigorously revisiting this issue with Canada's two major railways, to see whether an accommodation could not be reached at least for some time in the four or five summer months to run out of Union Station?
Mr. Downey: First of all, I am going to wait until I get the report back that is being compiled by the Lotteries Commission to see how they have made reference to any additional activities. Again, time and capability of the piece of machinery we are talking about has to be taken into consideration, so I want to see what that plan is. If there are further meetings or discussions to take place with either the two major companies that would benefit what we are trying to accomplish, I would consider it, but I will not commit to it till after I see what the Lotteries Corporation, in conjunction with the Vintage Locomotive Society, has planned for them.
Again, I can appreciate what the member is trying to get at. I think he is trying to get at greater exposure, bringing it down closer to where more activity is at the Union Station, and that in fact raises the profile of us being a transportation centre. I have lots of ideas as well. I think what he is saying is not--I am not disagreeing with it. It is a matter of how does it fit in with what is in fact doable.
Mr. Sale: I thank the minister for that answer. I am disappointed that he is not able to make a commitment that the train will not be stranded. In other words, that at the very least, the province would see to the maintenance of a rail link between Inkster and the CN lines, and that that train, that short piece of track--it is not very many kilometres. I think in total it is less than six kilometres from the proposed southeast terminus of this line--that the minister would undertake to see that that link was maintained at the very least, so that the train was not stranded.
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, again, I do not want, at this particular time, to be premature as to what we are asking for until we see what the report comes back from people that are prepared to invest in it, people who have invested their time on a volunteer basis into it, to intrude and say this has to be part of--my department is sitting here listening to what the member is saying. I do not want to make a commitment of leading someone to a fact that there may be a false expectation. We will look at it. We will take into consideration what the member has referred to.
I, too, do not want to see it stranded. I would hate to see it limited so that it could not be taken on to the part of the line or another area of the province for a special, whether it is a centennial, a bicentennial or whatever, to celebrate a particular event. I would hope that the railroads would be generous enough to allow that to take place. So I agree with him in principle. I do not want to see it stranded; on the other hand, if we expect something to be kept and put in place, how much money is it going to cost us to do that? I do not want to be premature with that kind of a decision.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I do not have any further questions on the tourism area of the department, but I would like to ask the minister what the small business situation is. We raised the question last year as to the advisability of having small business linked into this whole area. I am wondering whether there are any changes contemplated in regard to this.
Mr. Downey: Well, Mr. Chairman, one of the pieces of good news is that a lot of our small businesses are turning into big business. Of course, that is the reversal of a few years ago.
I do want to compliment particularly the head of the department, Loretta Clarke, who is with us, and the work that she has done in conjunction with the federal government in the establishment of the joint Business Resource Centre that has been recently established and officially opened last week. The numbers of activities that are going on there, particularly as it relates to small business and services provided, information, I have had nothing but positive feedback, particularly from clients, potential clients, legal representatives for companies that are developing and planning to start. The joint effort, a federal-provincial initiative, is extremely positive. So I can report to this committee really good news as it relates to the initiative. It has been a long time in the making. I understand Manitoba is one of the last provinces to become part of it, but, again, I think that is what the public expect.
Some of the programs that we have developed for small business are being very well received. The Business Start Program, the Manitoba Business Expansion Fund is one which provides support to companies not only for investing in capital but a first time for us to get involved in support for operating monies for companies. All in all, the whole area of small business development has been very, very busy and plays a continuing important role in supporting new businesses, particularly young entrepreneurs, old entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs in general, with information that is important to them in helping get them established. It is also important to have the information through small business development where companies may need some equity investment with the capital pools that are available. Again, that is important to small and beginning companies, that they work with them, whether it is the labour-sponsored funds, whether it is the Manitoba Capital Fund, or whether it is Vision or whoever, that they are worked with to help find the kinds of resources that they need to start their businesses.
Again, we have a major emphasis on developing companies so they are internationally capable, that their growth will not only be for Manitoba businesses to sell to Manitobans but other parts of Canada and international markets that are opening up to us. With the new location, I can give the member some additional information. Inquiries, walk-ins and consulting, in April, has basically doubled what the requests were a year ago when we were on our own and not in the location we are. So it is extremely encouraging that many more people are using the services that are available to them. I think it is the location; certainly the co-operative effort put forward by the province and the federal government. Again, I can report that the majority of people, in fact all the people, who have mentioned it to me have had nothing but compliments for the new establishment.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I may have missed it. What is the address of the new location?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chair, 244 Graham. It is actually in the Cargill building, in the walkway of the Cargill building between the Winnipeg Library and the Cargill building.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, over the last year I had a number of younger entrepreneurs contact my office asking for help, and I have passed them on, I hope effectively and efficiently, to the province. I hope they have gotten help. I suppose it is probably a good sign that most of them did not then call me back saying I did not get help, so one can assume that they did. It is confusing to a lot of them to have programs that are targeted to particular groups out of different departments.
I am wondering, for example, if--federal programs targeted to young aboriginal entrepreneurs is one example--there are programs targeted to young entrepreneurs, and presumably it is not racially targeted but just to young entrepreneurs. Is the minister satisfied now that in the one location all of the programs are appropriately catalogued and available and that we do not send people on wild goose chases around the community to find the right door?
* (1710)
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I am satisfied that there is now a single shop as it relates to anyone, regardless of what group or organization they come or what ethnic background, that is available to them. We also have the program under aboriginal business centre, which is on Higgins, which is available to them as well. So as it relates directly to the aboriginal people, there is an alternative service available to them of which we work with them to try and make sure that they are accommodated, and that is working successfully, I believe. But again, we encourage the use of this business service centre, which encompasses all federal and provincial programs and information as it relates to them right at the one stop.
Again, I made some comments the other day at the opening. What the public I do not think wants is when they go into a provincial office to be told: well, that is a federal program and you have to go across the city, or: here is a number, and you get frustrated. You go into a federal agency and the federal agency says: well, that is a provincial program, and gives you the runaround.
Quite frankly, this is truly one-stop shopping, and again, the reports that I am getting are people are not leaving frustrated at not getting information. They are able to sit down with the guidance counsellors that are there and effectively get the answers and the direction they need. Again, I can appreciate what the member is saying. We hopefully can do exactly that. But on the aboriginal component, we still have the other centre on Higgins Avenue.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I will look forward to visiting that centre when Estimates are over and I have some time to do that. I would like to visit and see what they have to do.
An Honourable Member: I think they are calling you right now, and they would like you to get over there soon.
Mr. Sale: I think they are closed probably. It is 4:30; it is likely closing hour.
An Honourable Member: They are open till five.
Mr. Sale: Well, we missed it by 13 minutes. Okay. I appreciate those responses.
There are a number of programs in high schools, particularly in the regional technical schools such as southwest Winnipeg, Kildonan East, Selkirk, Steinbach, a variety around the province, where young adults who are not going to go on to post-secondary education are taking, broadly speaking, entrepreneurship programs where they are learning the skills of starting their own businesses. I am wondering whether the province makes any active outreach to those programs.
I have spoken to some of those groups. I used to teach organizational behaviour, and so I have some real interest in the whole business of planning new businesses and new services that might be offered to people. I am not clear whether the province is actively outreaching to that group, which is not going to go on to Red River, for the most part, but they have--I have been very impressed with many of their business ideas and plans, and I have certainly been impressed with their attitude. These are young people who are prepared to make their own successes, but they are also first-time entrepreneurs. I am wondering what we are doing to reach this population.
Mr. Downey: I know, Mr. Chairman, first of all, we are working aggressively with those groups. In fact, I was out and spoke to a group--oh, it is about two months ago--and what they had were about--they set themselves up in different groups and they had business leaders from different businesses throughout the communities to work with them. They had special projects. This is a particular day that the high school sponsored for that whole region.
An Honourable Member: Junior Achievement.
Mr. Downey: No, it was not Junior Achievement, and I will get to Junior Achievement. That, of course, has been very much emphasized by Rural Development, who are working very closely with the high schools with Junior Achievement. In fact, they play a major role and are involved with the Rural Development Forum as part of the overall exercise which they are involved in.
No, this program is put on in the different divisions of which they have special programs, projects, which they start in the morning as to what particular business, and they go through the whole process of setting it up, marketing and then work on a point system. I was extremely encouraged to see the kinds of activities that are going on with the development of young entrepreneurs. They are scored on particular proposals. I was particularly pleased to be invited to be part of it as well. As a politician, one likes to get out and try and encourage these young entrepreneurs, and cheer them on in their work as it relates to the free enterprise market system. It is always encouraging. In fact, I would be open to go to more of them, just try and get a little time to do--
An Honourable Member: Never resist an opportunity to score.
Mr. Downey: If we could get these Estimates cleaned up, I could probably get out and influence some more of them.
I appreciate the question because the department is actively involved. I can tell you that, from the federal side, they were also there as part of that event that day. I think there is room for more of them.
Mr. Sale: Could the minister tell us more specifically what the linkages are between the regional high schools that are teaching business programs and particularly entrepreneurship programs? How are they linked and what are the mechanisms?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I understand that the resource teachers work very closely with the Business Resource Centre in getting information, and the resource centre provides people from the resource centre to go to their schools to talk to the students. Also, there is an annual meeting, a workshop annually which I, T and T organizes with the--they call it the youth entrepreneurial workshop. There are partners involved, such as South Winnipeg Tech, and Red River high school has a participation. So there are direct linkages between the staff of the Small Business unit, the Business Resource Centre and the instructors from the schools which have these programs in their system.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, are these linkages--I do not know what the right term is--mandated by the department to cover all regional schools, or are they more or less on a sort of catch-as-catch-can basis? If someone shows an interest, then there is an informal liaison, but is there a formal mechanism linking these programs, because many of our youngest entrepreneurs are these young people coming out of these programs? I am not always sure that they get the benefit of the advice that the province has available.
Mr. Downey: Particularly dealing with our rural communities. There is a more structured relationship, I understand, between rural development and the schools that have the junior achievement. We provide services to those schools that identify themselves as needing support and working directly with them. Again, the person who is involved for a small business development is available, and I guess these types of programs that are offered in the different schools. As one particular school is aware of it, as their major advertising campaign. Are their structured agreements? No, there are not. You used the word "catch-as-catch-can," I think it is a little bit more than that, but again not by official agreement that we will provide certain services under a program, but certainly are available to them. We will do what we can to support both the programs that are provided and delivered by the school divisions and/or supportive of the junior achievement which again comes under the Department of Rural Development, which are doing an excellent job in their overall activities with the school divisions.
* (1720)
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I do not want to relieve the schools of their responsibility to initiate this contact and to suggest it is all the government's responsibility, but I am wondering if the minister would undertake to ask his staff to suggest formal ways in which all of the schools that have such programs would be regularly contacted. They would make sure, for example, that their Internet sites are listed and linked with each other, that mailing lists were comprehensive.
I appreciate that the rural areas are being supported particularly through the Department of Rural Development, but what about our urban schools where by far the majority of students in these programs are located? Will the minister undertake to have his department investigate how to make these linkages more structured and more effective?
Mr. Downey: I appreciate the comments made. I want to make sure as well that all schools have the access. I understand that through the Internet connections that all schools, urban and rural, are in fact very much in use of the services that are provided, and there are direct linkages. I can assure the member that if there is a more formal way of encouraging participation and involvement, and I agree it is not to take the responsibility off of the school divisions, but if we can be of greater service to provide the information, backup and some options as it relates to looking at how we can better enhance and develop the business, an entrepreneurial spirit within our education system, we will be there.
I may even consider doing a direct ministerial letter to these different schools and getting more directly involved. I would not want to be accused of doing it politically, but it would certainly be for the overall development and enhancement of the opportunities for the youth in those schools, but seriously I think he is right. There may be some things that we can do to better make ourselves more available to all the schools. Although through Internet, I am told by the department that they are aggressively connecting and doing the kinds of informational workshops if requested to do so.
We will continue to expand and grow that, because I truly believe there are a lot of people, particularly young entrepreneurs, with the capabilities of new technology. It does not need to necessarily have a daily workshop or something like that. It can all be done through the electronic media or some of it can be done more through the electronic media at a very cost-saving way. So how we can do things more aggressively and better, certainly I will look at those options and have the department make some recommendations how better we can do it.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the minister's commitment to look at structuring those relationships more in the urban areas as they probably seem to be in the rural areas. I think he is right about young people and their comfort level, but young people are still taught by old geezers like us. We do not always have the same level of comfort or awareness that some of our students do. So it may still be the kind of thing where an in-person visit from time to time to offer seminars or particular components of the curriculum that that small business centre could do might be a very, very useful way of making sure that there was a direct avenue for the young adults who are heading out, they hope, into exciting careers and they will know then exactly where they can go and will already have had some exposure to that centre. So I put that forward as a suggestion. I think the minister is responsive, and I hope that it has some modest usefulness. I think we could pass the Tourism section, Mr. Chairperson, down to the end of (e) on page 92.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 10.3. Tourism and Small Business (a) Tourism Services and Special Projects (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $619,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,046,500--pass.
10.3.(b) Tourism Marketing and Promotions (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $638,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $3,967,800--pass; (3) Grants $75,000--pass.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, could the minister identify the grants in question here?
Mr. Downey: The money that is referred to is to help organizations with their marketing promotions, particularly national events, hospitality exposure for Manitoba's tourism products, and that is the granting for that particular program.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, there were some questions raised about the criteria. I thought the criteria for this program were international, that is, American as opposed to Canadian events.
Mr. Downey: No, Mr. Chairman, national and international, but basically it is open to national as well as international.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, is there another section of the grants that is limited to international trade shows in the United States?
Mr. Downey: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that falls under Manitoba Trade.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I guess we are way past that section, but the concern had been raised that there were national trade opportunities, that the small companies that make use of the trade shows in Minneapolis, for example, would appreciate the opportunity to make use of the same thing in Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal where the cost may even in fact be greater than going to some of the destinations in the United States where they are receiving assistance. I wonder whether that same program should not have the same kind of criteria of national or international, as opposed to the international restriction.
Mr. Downey: I will note the member's comments and see if there is anything that could be done to improve it.
Mr. Sale: We could just dispose of the other grants in the other two sections (c) and (e). There are grants in each of those areas. Could the minister just indicate briefly how those are different from the Marketing and Promotions Grants?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, basically with the regional focus that we are putting in place, we have put some capability to support regions where they are gathering together to look at some types of research and activities that may have to be carried out as it relates to the development of the product. It is basically to support the forum activity and to bring all of the province into more of the mainstream of what we are doing with tourism. So it is a general support for the different regional organizations.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, where in the annual report would these grants be detailed?
Mr. Downey: It is in the annual report under Tourism Development. This would be the first year for this particular expenditure. Basically, this will be the first year that this would be--it will not show up in the report until next year, at this year's Estimates, and it is basically to give more regional support to the tourism industry.
Mr. Sale: So, Mr. Chairperson, the latest annual report of the department I think is '96-97; '97-98 has not been released. Is '97-98 the first year of it, or has there been some restatement of the Estimates to pull something together that was separated? There is an amount shown in each of the last two years, the year we are debating now and '97-98, in each of these grant categories.
Mr. Downey: There will be some of it stated in this year's because we did some of the forums last year, which we had to provide the resources to carry them out. There is a growth in that area which we will see a greater amount in this year's report when it is provided, but it is an area which we have placed some greater emphasis on to make sure that all the regions of the province as it relates to tourism can participate in a greater way as it relates to the overall growth of our tourism industry. We needed a capability to do that, whether it is holding forums, whether it is holding special sessions on ecotourism, having a conference on it in a particular area, and there now is a capability of supporting those regions to in fact carry that out.
Mr. Sale: Is the grant in (e) still the Small Business and Entrepreneurial Development grant for the Manitoba Marketing Network Inc.? Is it still the same recipient?
Mr. Downey: The answer would be positive, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I welcome the regional tourism strategy. I think that will be--obviously, probably is being welcomed by the recipients. I think it is a very good move on the department's part, and I appreciate the answers.
* (1730)
Mr. Chairperson: 10.3. Tourism and Small Business (b) Tourism Marketing and Promotions (3) Grants $75,000--pass.
10.3.(c) Tourism Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $324,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $623,300--pass; (3) Grants $368,700--pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from Rural and Urban Economic Development Initiatives ($314,000)--pass.
10.3.(d) Capital Grant Assistance-Canada-Manitoba Partnership Agreement in Tourism $500,000--pass.
10.3.(e) Small Business and Entrepreneurial Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,239,600--pass; Other Expenditures $954,200--pass.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, just a slight reversion back. The Canada-Manitoba partnership has grown sharply this year. I may just not be recalling. Have we signed a new agreement here, or is there something that is hanging over from previous years? Is this related to Pan Am?
Mr. Downey: No, it is one of the last projects. It is the support for the Asessippi project.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 10.3.(e) Small Business and Entrepreneurial Development (3) Grants $30,000--pass.
Resolution 10.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $10,073,000 for Industry, Trade and Tourism, Tourism and Small Business, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
10.4. Economic Development (a) Economic Development Board Secretariat (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $566,500.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, this is the last item prior to the Minister's Salary, which we will be spending days and days on, I am sure. We will get the minister alone, without his staff, and see what we can do here.
One of the criticisms that I thought was a very important criticism and a constructive one in the Price Waterhouse report of a couple of years ago now was around the focus of the economic development analysis, the expertise that is being provided not just to the government but to the private sector and the public sector in terms of economic development strategies. The criticisms, I am sure, I do not need to detail them. The minister, I am sure, remembers them and the deputy probably remembers them even better, although that is not a reflection on the minister's memory but on the deputy's preoccupation, I think, with these issues because he has to live with them in more detail than perhaps the minister does.
The particular criticisms were around the lack of strategic information as opposed to just volumes of data, but information that was strategic to particular areas of economic development. As I recall, the study looked at some of the best practices in Oregon and Quebec and other locations that appeared to have a more focused strategy. Could the minister review for the committee what has been done in this area to address the weaknesses that were identified 18 or so months ago?
Mr. Downey: Well, again, if the member wants to take days and days and days in dealing with my salary, then I may take days and days and days to answer this question.
The serious response is, I think, Mr. Chairperson, first of all, I can indicate that all the positions in our reorganization have now been filled with people who are very capable and competent as it relates to the delivery of the programs and the policies which are in place, for example, the work that has been recommended by the capital markets task force in the areas in which we have been working very aggressively to provide sources of capital through the market, the capital funds of which labour-sponsored are two of them, the Manitoba Capital Fund, the target of going to some $60 million by the year 2000, and we have gone from $4 million, I think it is four years ago, to $30 million today. Again, that is a key area which a strategy was developed around, and we have moved very aggressively in that direction. Again, the continued growth in the manufacturing sector, particularly as it relates to transportation and some of the high-tech areas, and we can deal specifically with some of the software developments and the companies that are there to make sure that we are getting our department fully supportive.
Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
There are several key areas, transportation, manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, tourism, and again, one of the major things that we have been able to do is complete the filling of the positions that have been available so those strategies, in fact, can be carried out.
I think it is important to note as well that through the deputy minister--who, by the way, was not here as it relates to the time that the member refers to when that report was brought down, that Mr. Cormack has been in the capacity of deputy minister now since a year ago in February. So, he has, in fact, been moving to implement at a considerable, at a very progressive rate some of the things that had to be done.
I think if a review were done today, it would be a totally different review from the department. I think the attitude, the morale, the feelings within the department in delivering the programs are coming on very well. I think some of the questioning that the member has gone into, he should be satisfied that there have been some positive results which were not so positive some time ago when he asked them. I could go on and on, but maybe there are some more specific questions or a more detailed area that he would like me to deal with.
Mr. Sale: I am always impressed that the passage of time mellows the minister's memory in regard to a difficult period in his department, which, of course, at the time he denied strenuously was a problem at all. Now he acknowledges what everybody else knew and what the report had obviously made plain, and I am glad that he feels that his deputy and others are making the strides that need to be made. I appreciate that. I also want to be clear that I was not suggesting that the current deputy was here when the report was done, but he came shortly after it floated onto the scene and was largely responsible for having to deal with the implementation of the issues that flowed from that report. Not working for the department, I cannot comment on that, but I was very happy, let me say, with the responses to the tourism questions. I thought they were helpful responses today, and I appreciated that. So that is one sign of good things.
Specifically, the issue the Price Waterhouse report raised was not related to an absence of strategic sectors. In fact, the report suggested that we perhaps had too many sectors identified, that we were trying to spread ourselves too thin, and in particular I remember the report suggested that perhaps the focus on environmental industries was misplaced in terms of the environmental industry sector in the province as a strategic sector.
The report seemed to be suggesting that we needed to develop better information that was more--the only word to use is strategic to both the attracting of companies and the supporting of existing companies to expand and build on their business here in Manitoba. It was critical of the previous department's ability to provide that strategic information which is information about potential future markets, about competitive advantage, about logistical issues. All kinds of information is strategic, and I do not want to get into some academic discussion with strategic information, but I would like a sense of what has the department done concretely that has changed the way it goes about the development of information that would support our infrastructure in Manitoba of business and industry in a way that is different from the way it was when the Price Waterhouse study was completed.
* (1740)
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, without being critical, overly critical of past decisions and past ministers and/or the way we had in fact the department structured, we were broadly focused with managing partners in about 13 categories which quite frankly in theory, with the system as it was established, probably was not all bad, but we have found that the functioning and the reporting and the way in which we could focus on some of the areas under that system quite frankly was very, very difficult to do and there were some frustrations of getting to get some decisions made, whether it was particularly--and I can use an example of some major developments that took a combination of our department and other departments to focus on it, whether it is the Maple Leaf development, as an example, which came in conjunction with EDB. So we have changed it to focus on trade, of which Manitoba Trade is a single entity; Tourism and small business, again, which is a single entity; Financial Services, which is a resource and a backup to all the program deliveries, which, whether it comes from small business, whether it comes from MIOP, whatever, is a support system; and Industry Development, which comes under one particular ADM. So I think we were more focused and selected the areas in which, quite frankly, we can work more effectively.
In this system, I think we have a more concentrated information system at management meetings, and to have a meeting of 13 managing partners every month or every two weeks or every week was virtually pretty difficult to accomplish, and at the end of that meeting what did you have? So the system that is developed today, although the other one I think in theory had a lot of potential, today it appears that it is working. There is a little more focus, and, quite frankly, we are not trying to be all things to all people in areas which, quite frankly, we can probably find that service in another way. So I guess we are more concentrated in areas, that we feel that we can do some things better.
Call centre is another area in which we have focused and in which we have spent a considerable amount of time, and, again, it is working very well within the system. There is a group of people who are working on that on a full-time basis, and it has shown results. So I may not be as definitive as the member likes, but I think the proof is in the results, and I am pretty pleased with the results that we are getting from the department and particularly from the response of businesses, business as it relates to the service they get from our department.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, perhaps this is something that we could pursue after the House rises, but what I would be interested in knowing is, for example, on a simple case-study basis, let us say a medium-sized enterprise is interested in an agricultural technology application of some kind in Manitoba. They are looking for a new location and they contact our province.
What things fall in place to give them the kind of, not one-stop shopping but essentially the link that will then tap them into the strategic information they need, give them the logistical support, the infrastructure knowledge, et cetera, et cetera? How does that work in practice, and I would be happy to just have a meeting with that staff and find out just how they do that, how that actually works. It might be easier than trying to explain it during Estimates.
Mr. Downey: I will try to move through it as expeditiously as possible. Whoever would identify it if they were to come to I, T and T, if it was a specific area that needed financial support and they could not find it elsewhere, if it was a larger company that needed several departments to be part of it to help expedite some decision making, it would go to EDB. A person from there would co-ordinate and bring together all the departments, Rural Development, Agriculture, I, T and T, and Environment to make sure all the disciplines were around the table to make sure that everybody understood what the overall objective of the company was and what regulatory authorities had to be brought to the table and what decisions had to be made and financial support, raw resources, human resources.
An example, again, of a larger one would be Maple Leaf which would be co-ordinated through EDB. A smaller one which may just strictly be--let us use another example of a processing plant or a manufacturing plant, i.e., the New Flyer which had a major expansion plan. That basically would be developed with I, T and T's Financial Services and the Industry Development people working with them to see what the financial package was that had to be brought forward and what were the job implications and all of those things.
Mr. Sale: So, Mr. Chairperson, would there be then some commitments around time, turnaround time, that would be made early in this process, deliverables identified, et cetera? Is that the kind of process that would be followed?
Mr. Downey: The answer would be yes. Again, you cannot break the law or do things outside of regulations as it relates to environmental processes. However, it would be expedited by bringing all parties within government to the table so that everybody knows that there is a priority on time and it should not sit on one department's desk or another, that the questions can be asked directly of that department as to what has to be done and how long it would take to get that process approved.
Mr. Sale: I still have a question on capital funds. Mr. Chairperson, the minister referenced ENSIS and Crocus. Could the minister tell us whether or not the news reports about ENSIS purchasing support from Man Agra are correct or not? The reports were that ENSIS entered into a $240,000 or $250,000 contract with Man Agra in which ENSIS would pay Man Agra to bring deals to ENSIS. The government gave ENSIS, I think, $300,000 in a forgivable loan.
It seems strange to us that a capital fund would have to pay to have deals brought to it. That is backwards from the usual operation. Can the minister comment on that?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, I have nothing that would substantiate the comments that the member put on the record. I am not aware of any contractual arrangement between those two individuals. Because of the ENSIS fund not being overly large at the beginning stages, I think that they would have a difficulty in justifying being able to pay that kind of money. I do know that there are discussions that have taken place that, if Man Agra has, in fact, identified a potential investment, they would bring them together. But, as far as any direct overall retainer fee, I am not aware of any. I will find out if that is in fact the case, but it would be between ENSIS and Man Agra if such a deal were made. But, again, it is not my understanding. I am not aware of any monies being flowed on an ongoing contractual basis of that amount or any amount. But I do know there have been discussions and, particularly with Man Agra's knowledge of some of the agricultural sector, that they have in fact been talked to. What the formalized agreement is, I do not know.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I am just trying to find the press so that the minister could verify this.
The Free Press, Mr. Chairperson, of December 16, 1997, reports: ENSIS Growth Fund is to invest $250,000 in Man Agra and the fund will have the right of first refusal on all investment opportunities identified by Man Agra. That seems strange to me as a strategy. I have requested information from ENSIS and have not been able to secure information about whether that is correct or not.
That is not the only place that it was reported. It was also reported in the Winnipeg Sun, December 17: Man Agra, which signed an agreement to identify and research investment opportunities for Manitoba's newest labour-sponsored venture capital fund has access to a $250,000 pool of funds to help entrepreneurs do market research and develop their business plans. Bill Watchorn, chair of the ENSIS Fund, said Man Agra must match the $250,000 either in money or services.
* (1750)
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, to try and answer, with the limited knowledge I have--and it is more a guesstimate at this particular time, and it is dangerous to do that, but I would estimate that maybe ENSIS set aside so much money to allow certain research and study to be done as it related to agriculture projects, but not a contractual arrangement to pay them a fixed amount of money for services that they would expect to be provided. So I think it is an accommodation of that amount of money that may have been identified by ENSIS if in fact a project were to be worked on and worked on jointly; but, again, I do not think there is a fee for service or commitment made. I will check further as it relates to the relationship and/or any monies that may have been committed in that way.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, is the province proposing to invest further funds in ENSIS to assist them in their early stages?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, we are looking at certain options that are available to us. Again, the amount of money which was raised in the initial stages was not as great as what was anticipated could have been done because of the late start, and there are certain circumstances that would cause us to at least look at what are some of the options that may be available. We would hope that it accomplishes what was initially set out to do and that is to help some of the smaller- and medium-size companies obtain capital if they are now not able to get.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, what are the options available to the province in this regard to invest further in ENSIS? To repeat, what are the options available to the province for further investment in ENSIS? What vehicles are available? What scale of investment is being looked at?
Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, those are options that have not been decided upon or concluded. Again, is there greater support needed for the overall management to support the management of the system through some form of a loan may be one option. As far as adding more capital, I do not anticipate that that would be an option. But again, quite frankly, there have not been any decisions made, and we are looking at it at this particular time. I do not want to negotiate in a public committee at this particular time. If and when something is concluded, I am quite prepared to fully disclose it to the public.
Mr. Sale: Well, I might say that the minister has an interesting view of market here. Clearly, this fund was late getting to market, and so it may have had a bad first year based on its lateness. But it also may be that the market is not there for what it is wanting to do. The minister makes a great commitment to market forces. It has put legislation in place. It has advanced a loan to ENSIS. Why would the minister resist the judgment of the market in this regard? If the market is not prepared to buy into ENSIS to any further extent than $4 million, this fund is clearly running very high expenses for its management and the fee to the rent-a-union that it rented; $75,000 a year I think is the fee to the federal union that it has borrowed a name from. If the market is not prepared to support the fund, why would the government question the judgment of the market? It sounds like a different government than the one they claim to be.
Mr. Downey: One could get into a long-term philosophical debate. I guess one would ask the question on the other side of it, why would the same government put forward a $2-million grant to start the first labour-sponsored fund that was set up? In fact, there was a $2-million support that has been written off by the province of which started the Crocus Fund. So the same government that did that, that is looking at what options are available today to make sure that we in fact have a successful program in place. I have not said we have made the decision to proceed. Again, I am just saying that we are in discussion.
Mr. Sale: Well, Mr. Chairperson, let me say very clearly that I think there is a difference between a labour-sponsored fund that is truly a labour-sponsored fund where private-sector management is not being paid in Toronto to provide marketing support and a national union is not receiving fees. In fact, for the Crocus Fund, as the minister knows full well, there are no fees paid to the sponsoring unions. There is no recompense at all. It is a very different animal when highly expensive private-sector managers are hired. Fees are paid to unions. Fees are paid to BPI for marketing and administration of this fund. The public took a look at it and the public's judgment was $4 million, and the public's judgment on Crocus was $17 million.
I think maybe the minister should heed the public judgment. It is one thing to subsidize the front-end costs of an initial venture in a field where no profits are being taken out by the sponsors and indeed, if anything, capital is being put in, as he knows. The union sponsoring this fund put in substantial amounts of their own capital to make Crocus an initial viable fund. So I think the minister should reconsider very carefully if this private sector fund managed by private sector managers cannot make it, then perhaps that is the market's judgment and the minister ought to hear that judgment.
Mr. Downey: A quick response, Mr. Chairman. No decision has been made at this particular time to do anything. I said it was being considered. Secondly, he admits and I admit that the offering was into the market very late in the game, and quite frankly, I do not think it is a true reflection of what the market is speaking to as it relates to this initiative.
Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if there would be a will to call it six o'clock. It is three minutes to six. I think we will be another hour or so in Estimates the next day it comes by and rather than starting a new section of questions today, we should call it six o'clock.
Mr. Chairperson: Is the will of the committee to call it six o'clock? [agreed]
Time being six o'clock, committee rise.