The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Peter Dyck): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
When the committee last sat, it had been considering 14.1.(b)(1) on page 30 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I believe when the bells rang on Monday afternoon, we were talking about a trip that the minister had taken to Britain on behalf of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. There was some uncertainty as to the dates that the minister, and I believe the deputy minister, had been in London. My information, through Freedom of Information, was that those dates were October 12 through October 20, but the minister thought that perhaps those dates were not accurate. I wonder if she has been able to check that, and if the information is now available.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Yes, I was very pleased and honoured to have taken a trip, on behalf of our government and particularly the cultural and heritage community and also on behalf of immigration, to both London and Edinburgh in October.
The dates of that trip, in which a great deal of work was done on behalf of the province were leaving the city of Winnipeg on Sunday, October 12. I was in London until October 20. Following that, on that day, I went to Edinburgh and was in Edinburgh, returning to Winnipeg on October 25.
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Ms. McGifford: I was perusing the schedule that I have for the minister and according to the information that I have, the minister left on the 12th, as she said, and arrived on the 13th. Then I see that the minister attended an event on October 14, at 7:30 in the evening. Then, the next day--actually several events in the evening, and then on Wednesday, began working at 10:30 in the morning, Thursday, had a very full day, and Friday had a full day, too. I believe that Friday was the 17th of October. Then, I wonder if the minister could outline for us if there were events on the 18th and 19th of October as well.
Mrs. Vodrey: I would just take issue with a couple of the member's statements in terms of starting working as she said at 10:30. Quite wrong. That might have been the time of a first appointment. However, work was being done in the time that I was in Europe, and the days were very, very busy. They required preparation. There was briefing prepared for me, so that when I met with the individuals on my schedule I was very well prepared to discuss the issues with them, and then also present Manitoba in a general sense, as well, in terms of the other cultural activity, heritage activity or immigration activity, and then deal with the specifics that that group dealt with.
So, there was, in fact, a very busy trip, which I am certainly very happy that there has been now work continuing, now that we are back in Manitoba, on behalf of the cultural groups. Over that weekend, there were not appointments scheduled. The appointments that were scheduled were scheduled within the times people were available to meet with us, and then over that weekend there were not appointments scheduled. The next appointments then began when I arrived in Edinburgh.
Well, I will leave it at that for the moment.
Ms. McGifford: I am actually just going from the itinerary that I received through Freedom of Information. I am certainly aware that one has to do preparatory work before going into meetings. I appreciate the minister making that point because I do understand that she did not just go into a meeting cold, that, as I said, some preparatory work would have been done. So I do not mean to imply, through my remarks, that the minister was having a gay old time and not working hard. I just wanted to put that on the record.
I wanted to ask the minister: since she did speak in her introductory statement about interviews with possible immigrants--I think she talked about a successful recruitment-I wonder if she could give me those details again. I think she identified a number of possible persons in the remarks she made in her introductory statement, a number of possible immigrants.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I believe in the opening statement I was speaking about some efforts that have been made in our provincial nominee program in a particular area in Manitoba which would be separate from any direct meetings that I would have had with those people. I did not have any direct meetings with those individuals while I was away. That work is done through the federal government immigration people at the centre.
However, what I did do on behalf of immigration, and I am very pleased to talk about, was, first of all, as I have tabled in the Legislature, an interview in what is called the Canada News, which goes to all commonwealth countries. We are making every effort in Manitoba to continue to increase our percentage of immigration to our province. We are very interested in immigration, both on the family-reunification side, also in terms of provincial nominees, and certainly we are also very co-operative and interested in accepting our refugee portion as well.
So, while I was there, I did the interview with Canada News in which Manitoba received at least three major articles, and the headline reading, Immigrants Urged to Consider Manitoba, in a large headline. That was one of the major initiatives. I then had the opportunity to meet in Canada High Commission with Mr. Ben Pflanz. He carries the title, minister of immigration and medical services division. That opportunity gave me a chance to talk about, again, and stress very strongly Manitoba's position on immigration, our desire to increase our proportionate share, to explain to him that Manitoba has signed the Canada-Manitoba immigration agreement, that Manitoba has made it clear to the federal government what our position is.
So I was very happy to have had the opportunity to work on behalf of immigration to Manitoba while I was there at a major point of entry and also to have received the publicity which Manitoba received and that actually went to all commonwealth countries where anyone considering immigration or emigration from their country could see that Manitoba's doors are open and welcoming.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I am glad that the minister mentioned the federal government immigration centre because I was wondering--I am assuming that the minister visited the federal government immigration centre, and I am wondering what the difference is between the work that the minister did whilst in London or whilst in Britain and the work that the immigration centres do in Britain and elsewhere.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the work that I did was on the basis of a promotional campaign to promote Manitoba as a particular destination, and the work of the people at the post is, in fact, to deal on a case-by-case basis with applicants.
Ms. McGifford: I wanted to tell the minister that she may have tabled the document, but I did not receive it. Perhaps my colleague from Point Douglas did, and that is why I did not, but I did want to make that point for the minister.
I wonder if the minister could tell me how successful this recruitment program or how successful her efforts were in tracking immigrants to Manitoba. Do we have any measures as to how many people actually came after the minister was in London promoting Manitoba?
Mrs. Vodrey: It is very difficult to tell the total impact at this point because I went on that promotional trip at the end of '97, so we do not have figures for 1998 at the moment. I can tell the member that we have had increased immigration from '95 to '96. We had a slight decrease at the end of '97, for the year 1997, but we are working aggressively to increase the number of immigrants again who come to Manitoba. As I said, our overall goal, which has been communicated to the federal government, communicated to posts abroad, that we are very interested in increasing our proportional share.
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The promotion and recruitment campaign has generated interest in Manitoba, with, I am informed, the following results. I can tell you that there have been, I am informed, 64 campaign client arrivals. This is again not directly as a result of that single visit and that the promotion and recruitment campaign that we have embarked on has generated well over 130 exploratory visits, and that also, while people are coming to explore Manitoba, certainly results in tourism days and tourism spending while people are exploring whether or not this will be their destination for immigration.
I can tell you also that the promotion and recruitment campaign has generated further results in Manitoba. I will just check the dates. We have been quite aggressive on this campaign, and for approximately the last three years, the results I have are: 374 individuals and family members landed in the province; 114 clients are presently visa'd to Canada; 2,191 clients are in the process of submitting an application for permanent residence to Canada. Clients are from 55 different countries of origin and, as the member knows though, countries of origin apply through a post. The number of posts by the federal government has, in fact, been reduced.
Manitoba has conducted 39 seminars abroad, including 2,484 selected participants, and the Manitoba promotion and recruitment home page has been widely accessed over 150,000 times and 7,000 Manitoba information kits have been distributed worldwide. So we certainly as a government have taken what we consider to be a very aggressive stand in terms of wanting to attract immigration. As minister, I am very pleased that I had the opportunity to directly go and to put our case before the High Commission in London and to make it very clear at that post abroad Manitoba's position.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, fascinating as all that information might be, I do not think it directly answers my question. The question was very specific. It asked what the results of the trip to London were in terms of immigration to Manitoba.
I think the minister did say initially in her answer, and I would have been satisfied with that, that the figures simply were not available. But I am asking a specific question because a great deal of public money was expended on this trip and one of the reasons given for the trip was recruitment, was immigration and attracting immigrants to Manitoba. Therefore, I was interested in the specific results, in terms of immigration, of this specific trip. The history of immigration for the past three years, as I say, may be very interesting, but not really terribly relevant to the specific question that I was asking at this time.
So, to return to the trip. I wonder if the minister could tell me why her airfare cost $3,879 and that of the deputy minister as well. It seems to me, I travel to Britain, being born in Britain, with some frequency to visit family, and I have never paid anything like that ever.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, again, this gives me an opportunity to speak very positively about how very pleased I am to have represented Manitoba on that trip to Britain, and how our government has taken the position of recognizing that there is work to be done on behalf of the people of Manitoba.
Ms. McGifford: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I asked a specific question, and the minister does not have to answer that question, but she is also expected to be relevant to the question.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The honourable minister, on the same point of order.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, on the same point of order, I certainly am relevant and will be relevant. I am making it clear to the member, just in relation to both questions that she asked, exactly the purpose and the reasoning, and then with that in mind, I will explain the airfare.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The honourable member for Osborne does not have a point of order. I will ask the minister to continue in her answer.
Mrs. Vodrey: Well, to continue my point in terms of setting the reasoning, part of the overall reasoning is that our government has taken a very important view about Manitoba's position in the world, and also immigration is part, culture is part, as well. There is work to be done on behalf of Manitoba.
Manitoba's artists do not know any borders. In order to encourage immigration, to have a minister attend at a post abroad and to put the case forward for a province, I believe is important. It is true I do not have the exact numbers resulting from that particular visit to that particular point. However, by the end of '98, I expect we will be able to see the results, that we were certainly able to generate interest and publicity in our province. It is our wish and our hope and our effort that that will, in fact, increase immigration to Manitoba.
So the trip that we took was a business trip. It was a trip in which we had to leave and leave our families, as I have said earlier, on the Thanksgiving weekend. For me, it was also a very important family time which unfortunately I had to leave my visiting parents on their 50th wedding anniversary in order to arrive in London at the time that I was required to be there and be prepared to meet, in one of the first instances, with our ballet. So there was not an opportunity to take advantage of ticket sales as some members can do for holidays when changes are not really a problem, when you are able to have a greater flexibility and when you take advantage of a ticket sale and can arrive and simply do whatever you want at the other end.
Mr. Chair, as ministers do, I travelled on business. I had an agenda, I had a time frame, and I am informed that was the cost of the ticket.
Ms. McGifford: I am sorry that going to Britain for two weeks was such a hardship for the minister. Most of us would see it as a pleasure. I also am aware that the performance of the ballet--
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Mrs. Vodrey: I do not think anything in my answer required the sarcasm in the member's voice or in the comments that she is making. The trip was obviously an important one in which business was done. No one ever said at any point that it was not pleasurable and important to meet the people that I met there.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The honourable minister does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.
Ms. McGifford: It occurs to me that the performance of the ballet was certainly well established, so I still do not understand why the ticket could not have been booked well ahead of time and the fare could not have been more reasonable. So I do not quite accept the minister's explanation. It will be up to the citizens of Manitoba to determine whether they do or not.
The minister has said that on the 20th of October, I believe, she travelled to Edinburgh?
Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct.
Ms. McGifford: The minister stayed four or five nights in Edinburgh?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it was five nights, and I will make it clear on the record that the last night was paid for personally by myself because my husband who accompanied me was unable to get a flight home on the day that I would have liked to have travelled. This, I think, is really very important, because I took the issue of my trip very seriously and the issue of public money very seriously. I can tell the member that at any opportunity I made it absolutely clear that personally, if it was required, I would pay for anything which I needed to, and I did on that evening. So when my business finished, and I was required to stay one extra day, that was at my own expense.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister would be willing to table the costs of her accommodation, food, expenses while she and the deputy minister were in Edinburgh?
Mrs. Vodrey: Though it is absolutely no secret, I would expect the member would use the same process, and that is the FOI process.
Ms. McGifford: I take it then the minister is unwilling to table her expenses and is directing me, if I wish to find this information, to find it out through FOI?
Mrs. Vodrey: I would think that FOI would be the usual way in terms of asking for that kind of information; however, if the member would like it, I will attempt to put it together for her and table it at a later date.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, yes, I would like to have that information. I would like to have the total expenses incurred by the minister and the deputy minister whilst the two were in Britain.
Under the expenses incurred in the portion during the time in London from October 12 to 20, I read that ground transportation was $1,928.41. I certainly would not quibble about the 41 cents or even the $28, but $1,900 seems a lot of money for ground transportation in one week. I wonder if the minister could tell me how that money was spent.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, while away, yes, we had a car which was provided for us, which we paid for, with a driver, which enabled us to get around the city of London to our appointments and to maintain a reasonable schedule in that time.
Ms. McGifford: So this money was spent basically within London or greater London and covered the cost of a driver and a car?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, that is correct.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me if she stayed in Edinburgh or if she visited other cities or villages, towns, et cetera, in Scotland.
Mrs. Vodrey: In Scotland, Mr. Chair, I stayed in Edinburgh to do business. The one day that I went outside of Edinburgh was on the day in which I paid for myself and assumed all expenses.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister would tell me, please, in Edinburgh if she also recruited individuals, potential immigrants to Manitoba.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, no, I did not in Edinburgh because in the United Kingdom, for the countries who had come through the United Kingdom, London is the post.
Ms. McGifford: The minister tells us that she spent several days in Scotland and during that time she conducted business, but the business did not relate to potential immigrants. I wonder if the minister could sketch out for us today the nature of her business?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, I am very happy to explain and take another opportunity to speak about the importance of representing Manitoba and the people of Manitoba abroad, and in this case particularly in the United Kingdom and in Scotland.
Some of the work that I did--in this case, it did not relate to immigration, it related to arts, culture and heritage. Mr. Chair, I met with the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, one of the most famous fringe festivals in the world and had a great opportunity to inspect the information that they put forward, basically in a workbook form, that helps them year by year to continue to improve their festivals, set goals for the artists, set expectations for the artists, set expectations for volunteers. We had a very good opportunity to really see how this festival, which continues to grow, has been developed in Edinburgh.
All of that information was then brought back to Manitoba to be shared with our own Fringe Festival and to make sure, should anyone from our Fringe Festival wish to participate in the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, that that information was clearly available, and also the other way around, if we wish to advertise or to have some participants who may have been in Edinburgh participate in Manitoba, that that was open to them. So that was actually a very interesting and very important opportunity.
I then had the opportunity to meet with the director and the chairperson of the Scottish Arts Council and to have a very good discussion with them about arts and how arts are managed, funded and encouraged within Scotland. They have a setup somewhat different to Manitoba, and yet they were particularly interested in what was included within our Manitoba Arts Council and also to look at how the arts were funded and encouraged and supported in Manitoba.
I can tell you that each of these organizations was extremely pleased to meet with a minister responsible, and to have the minister directly come on behalf of our province and to explain directly about our arts and cultural community and to hear from them and to bring information back was actually very, very well received there.
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I also had an opportunity to meet with the Scottish Records Office. This was a very interesting heritage opportunity because the Scottish Records Office is a very historic building, to start with, of which we had an opportunity to have a very good tour and then to meet with the keeper of the Scottish records. One of the interesting parts of that trip was that, as a keeper of records, as a manager of information, they are in the process of developing in Scotland their own freedom of information, protection of privacy act. He was very well aware of the legislation which had been brought forward last year and passed in this House, and I had an opportunity to talk with him in detail about our particular legislation and then to talk about some of our common interests.
There is a particular common interest as a result of the Hudson's Bay Company. So many of the original settlers through the Hudson's Bay Company were of Scottish origin, and so there was great interest on his part to talk to Manitoba about our heritage and also the organization of some of our heritage records. I can tell you that it was a very important and interesting opportunity.
I would also just like to take a moment to speak about our provincial archivists and also Sue Bishop, who has been at the table, because the keeper of the Scottish records, who associates widely on an international basis, actually knows Manitoba's provincial archivists and also Sue Bishop and made particular mention of these people when I was in Edinburgh. It was really a wonderful, proud opportunity to see how very well the work done in our province is recognized abroad and to be able to bring that information back here to Manitoba and to feel, as well, that we had an opportunity to explain in person, again, to him, from the ministerial level, what was being done in Manitoba.
I also had an opportunity then to speak with the honorary consul for Canada while I was in Edinburgh. This was a very important time for him because, the member may know, at the time, it was the meeting of the Commonwealth leaders which was taking place in Edinburgh. Our Prime Minister was there, our Minister of Foreign Affairs was there, Canada was represented, and obviously, people from all of the Commonwealth countries.
So it was very interesting and important for us to have the opportunity to meet with the honorary consul to directly talk with him about issues and points of view in Manitoba. It is an opportunity that I have as Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship frequently to meet with consuls from around the world who make a visit to Manitoba, and this was my opportunity to pay a visit to the consul while I was in Edinburgh.
So, Mr. Chair, I had an opportunity to meet both formally and then had also some very good informal meetings where representatives of both the city and various parts of the arts community sat with us. We had a very good opportunity again to speak about how the arts is encouraged and what we can do, and what the interests may be between our two jurisdictions in terms of any co-operation or what we can learn from each other.
So the focus of my trip in Edinburgh was, as I said, mainly on the cultural and art side, as well as the heritage side.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, the minister has spoken about consultation and she has talked about the opportunity she had to do one thing and another and about the pleasures and about how interesting the experience was. I am wondering if there were more concrete results from this trip. For example, I do not know whether the minister was in a position to market Manitoba craft. That is what I mean by something more concrete.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, first of all, I make no apologies for the promotional part of the visit that I made because that is also a very important part of what I did. I was very pleased to take with me, as well, Manitoba: Its Culture and Its People and to use that document as a way to promote Manitoba.
However, I should have mentioned and I forgot to mention, that in Edinburgh I did have an opportunity to meet with a group--its name is called W.A.S.P.S., the Workshop and Artist Studio Provision, which is the major craft centre in Edinburgh. I was able to speak about what is happening in Manitoba, the value of our crafts industry to Manitoba, which actually is really substantial. It is almost $30 million within our province, a province of a million people.
The interesting part, I just would like to say, in that visit is that in Manitoba, craftspeople do not have to cluster within the major city centres but can live anywhere within our province of a million people. This is very much the same kind of arrangements that are found in Scotland, and we found quite a lot of similarity between our two areas.
So in terms of Scotland and Clerkenwell Green in London, which was also a major craft centre, we have shared information from our visits to these artists' village with local arts groups. I understand that the artists in Manitoba are now looking at whether or not they would like to form an artists' studio similarly, and what kind of further communication on that will be done through our department.
Ms. McGifford: I have no more questions in this line.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 14.1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $452,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $74,200--pass.
Item 14.1.(c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,238,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $257,800--pass.
Item 14.1.(d) Manitoba Film Classification Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $112,300.
Ms. McGifford: I do have a couple of questions on film classification. I wonder if the minister could tell me whether classification is a service or whether costs are paid for classification.
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that for film there is a cost; for video there is not a cost except for adult.
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Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me the cost of classification? Perhaps her staff would know how that compares with other jurisdictions across Canada.
Mrs. Vodrey: The cost of classification is two dollars per minute. I understand that it is competitive across the country, but I do not have those figures available to me here today.
Ms. McGifford: Can the minister tell me, please, why there is not a charge for videos other than adult videos?
Mrs. Vodrey: I just wanted to get a little bit of the history. My understanding, and I do not have a lot of background on this, is that at the moment the issue of classification is the main issue. The cost has not yet been a part of the issue. I have spoken about the video issue. The member and I spoke about it last year. I have spoken publicly since on that issue. So, at the moment, any kind of interprovincial classification system has really been what has been focused on at the moment.
Ms. McGifford: I am not really interested in an interprovincial classification system at this minute, although I think it would be a very interesting idea. What I wanted to know is why there is a cost for classifying adult videos but not for other videos when there appears to be a classification fee for films regardless of the classification of that film.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand, just in addition, that a number of the videos we get are already classified because they have been paid for classified as film.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me the cost of classifying an adult video?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, $2 a minute.
Ms. McGifford: By my calculations, we said it was $2 a minute for a film and most films are approximately 120 minutes long, so that is a classification fee of $240. I do not know how many films are classified a year, but leaving that aside for a minute, I do not know how many adult videos are classified a year--far too many for my taste, but anyway that is beside the point.
I am interested in what happens to the classification fees. Where do they go?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed they go into general revenue.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me approximately how much money per year is generated by classification fees.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed approximately $300,000.
Ms. McGifford: So the money generated by classification covers the money expended on the Film Classification Board, approximately, more or less?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that is correct.
Ms. McGifford: Is there a special licence fee for adult video premises?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, there is.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me what that fee is and, again, how it compares with other jurisdictions across Canada.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we do not have that information at the moment, but I will table it for the member the next time we are together.
Ms. McGifford: I am sorry, is the minister saying she does not have information as to the cost of the licence or the comparisons with other jurisdictions?
Mrs. Vodrey: To be correct, we do not have either one in its absolute correct form. We will table both when we are together next.
Ms. McGifford: It just occurs to me that I know the minister and I have spoken about adult videos before. We spoke about them last year, and I certainly voiced my distaste and, I think, my dilemma with the term "adult videos" because these so-called "adult videos" seem to me to be anything but adult. I was interested in the fee because it seems to me that one of the things that the minister might want to consider is raising whatever these fees are because it would seem to me that there might be public support for such a move.
But, since the information is not available, I will just leave it and perhaps move on to something else that I wanted to bring up, and that is the issue of video-game classification, which, again, the minister and I discussed in Estimates last year. I believe last year the minister told me that there was going to be a meeting in Ottawa regarding the classification of video games, and I wonder if the minister could inform me of the results of those meetings.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the chair has recently arrived back from a meeting. The result of the meeting among chairs is that there is no other jurisdiction who is looking at this issue at the moment, or is prepared to. I understand B.C. has said that they are prepared to look at the industry classification which I have talked about again publicly and have said that the industry has tried to do that. So that seems to be the position of other provinces, and so it is somewhat difficult when no one else is really interested in the issue.
Ms. McGifford: Well, I would think that Manitoba could assume a leadership position, and I wonder if--the minister has told us B.C.'s position, or perhaps B.C.'s position--the minister has a position on the classification of video games.
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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, when this issue came up fairly recently as another issue, I was quite concerned about the content and was very, very interested in knowing what may be done across the country, and at the moment I have not had a chance to speak with the chair of the Film Classification Board about the details of the meeting. So I am, at the moment, not aware of why that decision may have been made by other provinces.
The chair of our Classification Board did go with my concerns and to look at what the interest would be across the country, but at the moment I have not heard what any of the reasoning was to have this rejected by other provinces. So before I put a position forward, I would like to hear from the chair so that she could tell me, again, further reasoning, and then we can look at developing our government position.
Ms. McGifford: Then would it be accurate to say that at this time the minister has concerns but does not have a position?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I said that I would wait until I had advice, further information from the chair, and then government would consider the issue with all of the information. So to say does not have a position may not sound exactly correct, but I am not prepared to articulate government's position yet until I have the further information, which I have asked for following the meeting of the chairs of the Film Classification Boards.
Ms. McGifford: Well, I look forward to hearing what position the minister may adopt. I am interested in knowing, and perhaps the minister can give me this information, I am a little unclear as to what the relationship is between the federal and the provincial government when it comes to classification. Perhaps I can get an answer. I wonder if the province has the right to classify videos on its own and of its own initiative. Pardon me, video games.
Mrs. Vodrey: It is my understanding that the province does have the right to provide the classification of video games, if they decide to move in that way. It is my understanding that no province does this at the moment, and that the federal jurisdiction extends when through the Criminal Code there is a case brought forward and the decision is that it is pornographic.
Ms. McGifford: I just wanted to share with the minister, information that I think I brought to Estimates last year, and that is that in Australia there is a system for the classification of video games. I do not know whether the minister and/or her staff have had the opportunity to look into that legislation, but I just wanted to mention it again. Having said that, I have no more questions with regard to the Film Classification Board.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 14.1. Administration and Finance (d) Manitoba Film Classification Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $112,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $188,400--pass.
Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $274,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $72,400--pass; (b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,503,400.
Ms. McGifford: I wanted to ask a couple of questions on Grants to Cultural Organizations. First of all, I wanted to ask the minister if the museum of Manitoba is funded through major operating grants.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is yes.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, somebody has brought to my attention some questions about conservation. Perhaps I could ask the minister those questions. This seems to be the appropriate time.
I understand that from 1980 to 1996 the Heritage Conservation Service provided conservation services across Manitoba, particularly to galleries and museums and that this service is no longer in existence because the government funding ended in 1996. Is that correct?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, there was some reduction which I understand has been made up by HGAC, so that, in fact, the effect is that there has not been any reduction at the moment. However, the major partners--the museum, the Art Gallery, our Provincial Archives, ourselves, there have been meetings with the Heritage Conservation Service, and we are looking to work with the Heritage Conservation Service to make the services the most efficient possible and to look at any requirements to do that.
I understand that the meetings have gone quite well, that there have been a number of meetings in order to look at this and to try and make sure that everyone was involved who may have had a concern, and I understand that there is a proposal which will be coming to me fairly shortly, in fact quite soon, to look at how this new process then will be in effect.
Ms. McGifford: Is the minister then assuring me that conservation in Manitoba is alive and well and will continue, and our heritage resources and our artifacts and museum pieces and paintings, statuary, et cetera, in our art galleries will be properly conserved?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is exactly why. The meetings have been held for exactly those reasons, because of their importance and because of the need to look at how conservation can be done in the most efficient way, who is best to do certain parts of it. So I am very pleased that the work toward this new proposal has been ongoing, has been co-operative, and I will be looking forward to receiving that proposal.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I was told that because of certain cuts, the Manitoba Museum had cut the Manitoba Museum advisory services which had provided conservation and that these services were no longer provided. So I am pleased to hear that there is a plan and there is something in the works to take care of this. So I will certainly be talking to people in the community who have brought these concerns to me, and I hope that their concerns will be alleviated.
I understand, too, it is from the major agencies operating grant that the Winnipeg Art Gallery is funded.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is yes.
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Ms. McGifford: I understand about 50 percent of the Art Gallery's budget comes from the province. I also understand that the province has representation on the Art Gallery's board, and I wanted to ask the minister, first of all, who her representative is, and secondly, if this person has discussions with the minister, if there are any duties that accompany this appointment or whether this person is entirely a free-lance person.
Mrs. Vodrey: I believe the member asked the names of the government-appointed members. The members are Judy Sutherland, Jacqueline McIvor, and Gordon Gage. I have not met with these members nor given them any specific purpose or task on the board--have not met with them on this issue specifically.
Mr. Chairperson, Ben Sveinson, in the Chair
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I wondered if the minister had the right to give these members any specific instruction or request of them any duties or whether these appointments, as I said, are entirely free lance in the sense that the individual is completely free to make his or her decisions at the board level.
Mrs. Vodrey: The member's question is does the minister have the right? I understand that it is not legislated; therefore, that would be very difficult to determine. Basically, my view has been that we try to appoint good members who have an interest and who have a contribution to make to the board and that those people then act with their expertise as board members.
Ms. McGifford: I do not mean to pick on the Art Gallery at all, but I wonder if--I choose the Art Gallery as an example, in fact, but since the Art Gallery's budget, 50 percent of it is funded by the province, I just wonder what the accountability mechanism is.
Mrs. Vodrey: The Art Gallery files its annual report with us. They provide us with quarterly cash flows, and there is an ongoing working relationship between the Art Gallery and the staff of the Department of Culture.
Ms. McGifford: I am sorry, did the minister say the Art Gallery provides her with a quarterly cash flow?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is provided to staff.
Ms. McGifford: Last year, I think I congratulated the Art Gallery on its free Wednesdays, and I wanted to reiterate that congratulations. It seems to me very important that a publicly funded body, or so much of it is publicly funded, like the Art Gallery, does stay open for the public because there are many individuals, of course, who want to visit the Art Gallery and cannot afford the entrance fee.
I wonder if the minister could tell me please why hospitality grants are no longer a part of this line.
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand it was a year ago that budget line--not this year, but last year--was eliminated, and that money was then reallocated throughout the department.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me please why it was eliminated?
Mrs. Vodrey: As the member sees, the dollar amount was, in fact, very small. It was then more efficient to reallocate. Under the line Community Initiatives in this year's budget, if there is a requirement for hospitality, it can be considered on a case by case and can be considered through that budget line.
Ms. McGifford: During the Portage by-election last year, the minister announced that the province would, I quote, handed over a $400,000 cheque to the Portage Community Centre. I wonder if the minister could tell me if that amount of money comes from somewhere in this budget line.
Mrs. Vodrey: That money came from our capital budget '97-98.
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Ms. McGifford: I have no more questions in this particular line.
Mr. Chairperson: 14.2.(b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,503,400--pass.
Item 14.2.(c) Manitoba Arts Council.
Ms. McGifford: I am certainly pleased to see that the MAC grant has increased. I am always pleased to know that there is more funding available in the arts community, because I know the minister agrees with me: we owe these people so much, both communally and individually.
I wonder if the minister could tell me who the new executive director of the Manitoba Arts Council is or whether one has been appointed.
Mrs. Vodrey: They are currently undertaking a recruitment and they have not made a decision yet.
Ms. McGifford: One of the questions I have been asked by members in the community is that they are wondering--some of the individuals I have spoken to would like to know more about the process and decision making that sees money moving from the Manitoba Arts Council into the hands of arts groups and artists. Particularly, I am wondering if there is a funding formula. How is a decision made, for example, out of this total amount of money that we see listed here? How is it decided how much money goes to dance, how much goes to theatre, how much to literary arts, visual arts, music? Is there a funding formula?
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the Manitoba Arts Council develops a general budget and then works based on applications submitted. The operating grants are determined by the council, and the project grants are determined in a juried fashion.
Ms. McGifford: There is no formula that determines--I am just drawing figures out of the air, but that 25 percent goes to theatre and 30 percent to dance and so much to another one of the arts.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is that there is not a formula, that there is some variation year by year based on some of the requirements, based on the applications.
Ms. McGifford: I notice that the Manitoba Arts Council awards operational funding to certain groups. I wonder how new groups might come to qualify for this kind of funding.
Mrs. Vodrey: New groups would make an application, as would others. That application would be assessed. I understand that the Manitoba Arts Council then does a review also of their granting, where they have granted each year, and then they look to see what the outcome is and then they have to weigh the applications each year as they come in.
Ms. McGifford: The minister seems to be implying then that organizations, or that certain organizations, do not receive year after year as part of their operating budget certain sums of money but that it is something that they need to reapply for every year and are never sure of getting. Is that the case?
Mrs. Vodrey: All clients do apply annually but some clients receive only project funding. Where it is project funding, then it is not a guarantee year by year because it is a juried process.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister would be willing to arrange a briefing session for me with the Manitoba Arts Council.
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand the member has had meetings at other times and that is not a difficulty for the Arts Council, so I will be pleased to do that.
Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no more questions there.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2.(c) Manitoba Arts Council $7,317,300--pass;
Item 14.2.(d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $580,000.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I am just housekeeping. I wonder if the minister would forward to me or have her staff forward to me a list of the Heritage grants, or the most recent list.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I will do that.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. (d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $580,000--pass.
Item 14.2.(e) Arts Branch (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $542,600.
Ms. McGifford: I wanted to thank the staff in the Arts Branch for preparing a complete list of grant assistance of the organizations receiving these grants. It was extremely helpful and I take this opportunity to request the same kinds of lists for 1998-99. Now, having said that I received a complete list of grant assistance, I want to add that I did not receive a list of film support grants. I do not know whether this is because these grants are delivered through the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation, but I wonder if I might have a list of those grants for '97-98 and then for '98-99.
I know that last year the minister told us in Estimates that she would soon proclaim The Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation Act. I know that it received Royal Assent on November 19, 1996. I think I have that date right. Anyway, last year the minister said that in the very near future she would appoint a board. My understanding is that a year has passed and the act has not been proclaimed and a board has not been appointed, so I wonder if the minister could explain why.
Mrs. Vodrey: This is a really important board that I want to put in place. I think it is very important to the industry, so the industry was asked to submit names. Names had come forward, and then some names appeared to be ineligible because they would have a direct conflict in terms of being someone who may receive a grant or receive a benefit.
So, in the intervening time, I went back to the industry again, I asked for some further names. Then I thought I had--and I am, in fact--I just will tell the member, to make it short--very close, but occasionally, then, as I was prepared to bring it forward, other conflicts appeared in terms of names that had been recommended, people going into various businesses.
So I can tell the member that there has been a lot of active work done on this, and I believe that I am very close to being able to name that board.
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Ms. McGifford: Well, I am pleased to hear that because, as I said, it is a year ago, and my understanding is that the purpose of the Manitoba Film and Sound--I always get the name wrong--Film and Sound Development Recording Corporation was to create a situation not dissimilar to that of the Manitoba Arts Council with regard to the arts community. That is to say it would be an arm's-length board and therefore not directly linked to government. I am wanting to know, in the interim, how are funds being disbursed, who makes the decisions, et cetera.
Mrs. Vodrey: Though it is taking some time to get the right board in place for the new corporation, I want the member to know that a great deal has, in fact, been going on in that particular area of the industry. To answer the funding question, we have a contribution agreement, and then the funds flow and are distributed by their current board. I would like to say that the industry itself has been working very hard and really is a success story in Manitoba. They just continue to actively promote Manitoba.
I understand the film and sound industry has been estimated to be approximately $20 million in 1997, and they are estimating that they will be at approximately $45 million by the end of 1998. They are actively marketing the tax credit, and I think that there is quite a lot of evidence of the vibrancy of this industry. It is an industry that we are very, very proud of. It is an industry that Manitoba is making every effort to assist, and I will be looking forward to naming that board in the very near future.
Ms. McGifford: The minister used the expression current board, and I am not quite sure what she means. I would also like to know who the persons sitting on this current board are.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that it operates at the moment as a regular nonprofit three-person board, and I have been checking the names. We believe these are still currently the people who are operating as the board members: Carole Vivier, Tom Kormylo and Lisa Collins.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, does the current setup then differ at all from the situation that prevailed before we passed the legislation in November 1996?
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is no. There have not been changes since that time.
Ms. McGifford: So things are the same, but the minister is looking forward to proclaiming the act, to appointing the board, and we should be looking forward to that in the very near future.
I wonder if Manitoba Film and Sound has an annual report and if I might receive a copy of that report, the most recent report.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is, yes, they do, and I am happy to provide that for the member. I do not have a copy today, but I will see that you get it.
Ms. McGifford: Does Manitoba Film and Sound have a funding formula with regard to commercial versus noncommercial production?
Mrs. Vodrey: We are not aware that it has. We can check though.
Ms. McGifford: I would appreciate that very much because I think it is very important to protect our small film makers and to encourage our small film makers, especially individuals who are just beginning their work. So I would be very interested in knowing what the funding formula or policies are in that regard.
The next question I want to ask is perhaps a question that I should ask of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), and I am sure the minister will tell me, but it was in relation to the tax credit or labour rebate. I want to know if it applies to all productions going on in Manitoba, because it seems to me that there are many non-Manitobans working on film. So I was interested in knowing the answer to this question.
Mrs. Vodrey: It may not apply to all. It applies to those who apply for it and actually meet the qualifications.
Ms. McGifford: So, Mr. Chair, if non-Manitobans are brought in to work on a film crew, does it apply to those persons?
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is no.
Ms. McGifford: So it applies only to persons who live in Manitoba.
Mrs. Vodrey: At the moment, it is currently based on Manitoba labour.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister then tell me the definition of a Manitoban?
Mrs. Vodrey: The member's questions are becoming fairly technical, and in that way I would prefer that she ask them to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson). However, I can tell you that in terms of the tax credit, Manitoba-based corporations which pay no less that 25 percent of salaries and wages to Manitobans may apply for a fully refundable corporate income tax credit based on the lesser of--and the member has probably seen this-35 percent of eligible salaries paid to Manitoba residents during the taxation years '97, '98, '99, and the first 60 days of the year 2000, or (b) 22.5 percent of total production costs of the eligible film incurred after December 31, 1996, and before March 1, 2000.
Total production costs must be net of government assistance, and the corporation must be a taxable company incorporated in Canada with a permanent establishment in Manitoba and have assets of less than $25 million, and then it must also be registered by Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation as producing an eligible film.
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Ms. McGifford: I am actually not thoroughly familiar with the document from which the minister is reading. I heard most of the information that she supplied before, but I would really appreciate a copy of that document.
Mrs. Vodrey: That information is well known. I am very happy to provide that information to the member. If she requires anything that may be somewhat more technical than that in terms of its application, then it might be most helpful if she spoke with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).
I would just like to take a moment because Marble Island Pictures, which has been working in Manitoba, has just sent a letter. I think that it would be very important, since we are talking about the film and sound industry and how very positive and vibrant it is in our province, to just read a little bit of this letter into the record which says to us: my company and our industry as whole--[interjection]
Ms. McGifford: Point of order, Mr. Chair, I understand if the minister is reading from a letter, then she is required to table three copies of the letter, and I would like to have a copy.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am going to defer to your ruling on that, because this is some information which was given to me. I am more than happy to read parts of it into the record, but I would ask that the Chair perhaps provide a ruling.
Mr. Chairperson: Rule 34: "Where in a debate a Member quotes from a private letter, any other Member may require the Member who quoted from the letter to table the letter from which the Member quoted but this rule does not alter any rule or practice of the House relating to the tabling of documents other than private letters." Is it a private letter?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, since this letter was not directed to me specifically, I think that I should not table it.
Mrs. Vodrey: However, the member does not want to hear good news. You know, this is the position that we are in with this member all the time. You know, she does not want to hear about the good work done in terms of a ministerial trip abroad promoting our province; she does not want to hear about the good news which can be made available to her about our film and sound industry. We just consistently have the member not wanting to speak up for the arts, not wanting to hear the important cultural developments in our province, and it is most disappointing to myself and to the arts community as a whole.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I wanted to ask the minister whether she is aware if there is a policy decision that has been made by the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Recording Corporation as to what percentage of the money goes to film and video and what goes to sound. I realize that film is very capital intensive, but we are all aware that Manitoba has a very important recording and music industry. I am curious as to the distribution of monies.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am happy to provide some of that information to the member and also to speak just a little bit more on the vibrant film industry that we have. In terms of film, the amount of money is, to film, $1.2 million, and to sound, $300,000.
As a result of this, there is a very vibrant industry. I will not be quoting, but I am very happy to talk a little bit about some of the comments that have come from the Marble Island Pictures in which, when this smaller independent film company is asked why they do not move to another place, basically, their answer is simply Manitoba is definitely the place to be in independent film in Canada, and that there is a strong recognition of the importance of our film tax credit, of the extraordinary support that our government has shown to the industry. Make no mistake about that. Our government support shown to the industry through the tax credit and through the general support provided through the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and other related departments of government has really made Manitoba an extremely vibrant place to be.
The recruitment that has been done by people such as Carole Vivier to bring film production here to Manitoba has just been wonderful. It is also one of those areas that I would say to the member, when she has taken a very narrow view, I believe, of arts and culture and heritage, that this does not know borders and that Manitoba's name has been promoted in many, many places around the world and we have become known as an excellent centre. We have documentation that has come into various ministers and people in government where people are prepared to put their name to their support of the film and sound industry in Manitoba. This is good news, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I am sure the minister is aware that my position is the critic for Culture and Heritage. My job is to ask questions and to try and find out what is going on. I am really surprised at the minister interpreting my doing my job as an attack and as representing a narrow view of the arts. I think it is quite unfair. I also want to say that I am really shocked at the minister's tone for a person who earlier today chided me for sarcasm. I would like to return tit for tat and suggest that the minister's rant and hectoring is really uncalled for. I would advise her that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. I am actually very disappointed in the way the minister has yelled at me.
But if I could continue with some questions--
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Mrs. Vodrey: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, just to clarify for the record for anybody reading this in the future, there was not a tone of yelling. The member is obviously extremely sensitive about the way she is perceived and the way her questioning has been perceived. Her questioning, through the process of Question Period and so on, has simply been to be extremely small-minded about arts and culture in Manitoba.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
Mrs. Vodrey: No, there is not.
Ms. McGifford: Has there ever been a hard copy catalogue?
Mrs. Vodrey: We do not have a hard copy catalogue, and to our knowledge there has not ever been a hard copy catalogue.
Ms. McGifford: Who owns this collection?
Mrs. Vodrey: The people of Manitoba.
Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister if the works in the collection are regularly appraised, soundly insured and properly preserved.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is yes, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could give me some information, then, for example, how regularly are the works appraised, and, in fact, what the appraised value of the collection might be, some details about insurance and about the ways in which the works are conserved and preserved.
Mrs. Vodrey: The condition of the collection is assessed every year to make sure that they are preserved. There are condition reports done each year of the whole inventory. My understanding is that as a result of the last appraisal, the appraisal is somewhere in the area of $3 million, and that now there is the process of a new appraisal being done with the provincial art collection.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me with whom these works are insured and what the cost of insurance is.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the government is self-insured, and these are part of the government's assets.
Ms. McGifford: I am not quite sure what self-insured means. I wonder if somebody could explain it to me, please.
Mrs. Vodrey: This question may be best answered through Finance or through Government Services who deal with the insurance process of all of government's assets on a regular basis.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me what the point is in having it in the Internet catalogue, but not having a hard copy catalogue. I realize that one of the difficulties with a hard copy catalogue is that the collection is being augmented year by year, but presumably it could be updated.
The reason I make this point, Mr. Chair, is that I do not know what the percentage of Manitobans is that has access to the Internet and to that catalogue. I know that some of we more fortunate Manitobans do, but since it is owned by the people of Manitoba, it would be, I think, a good idea to have the collection, via a catalogue, available to many more Manitobans.
Mrs. Vodrey: I think it is probably best to clarify that we have been talking about a catalogue because it is a listing, but there is not a catalogue as the member might think formerly of as a catalogue. There is a listing of the collection. It is on Intranet, within government, so we have a listing of the art and where it is. The art itself is all available to the public, all accessible to the public. It is hung in public buildings, and so at this point there has not been a catalogue or a form of catalogue developed.
Ms. McGifford: Have the individual pieces of art been photographed? My understanding is for insurance it is necessary to photograph art.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is, yes, that it is all photographed.
Ms. McGifford: So it would be possible, though expensive, to create a pictorial catalogue?
Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McGifford: To move on, during last year's Estimates we discussed a cultural industries forum which was cancelled for June 2--it would be June 2, 1997, I guess--for some obvious reasons, because I am assuming that it was because it was election day. I understand that this was to be rescheduled, and I wonder if this forum did take place. I wonder what the results of the forum might be. Were there any reports or documents that I might have?
Mrs. Vodrey: There have been two forums, so I think it is probably useful to speak about both. I think the member is referring to the export forum, not the cultural industries forum which was due to be held in June of last year. It was a one-day event. It was, in fact, rescheduled and held in June. It provided delegates from the cultural sector with quite comprehensive information and orientation about export marketing and resources. There was not a document produced at that time.
Then, Mr. Chair, there was a cultural industries forum which took place in December of this year. It was sponsored by the Economic Innovation and Technology Council, the EITC, and it was responsible for laying a foundation for a comprehensive development plan for cultural industries including film, sound, publishing, new media. I understand that from that there has been a document produced which is a public document.
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Ms. McGifford: I have a document here produced by the Manitoba Cultural Coalition in which they talk about a cultural exports consortium and list several organizations that have participated in this. I wonder if this is the same consortium that the minister talked about earlier as having met in I believe she said June.
Mrs. Vodrey: No, my understanding is that it is not the same document, but that many groups who participated may, in fact, have produced some documentation themselves following.
Ms. McGifford: From that same document there is a section on a cultural training council. I know that cultural training is extremely important, especially with our burgeoning film industry. The contact listed in this document is Mr. Terry Welsh of the provincial Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
I read that the provincial government is at a preliminary stage in supporting the setup of this sort of council with the possible establishment by spring--that would be presumably at this time--and perhaps some training projects by next summer.
Since we are all aware of the importance of training in the cultural sectors, I wonder if the minister could provide me with any information on this council, its progress, and the kind of training, cultural training that is taking place in Manitoba.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, to my knowledge there is not a council, but there is a Strategic Planning Committee. It is made up of cultural groups, it is made up of interest within government, and that is how it is operating at the moment.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, actually the word "council" was from the vocabulary or from the title of the Manitoba Cultural Coalition.
I wonder, then, if the minister could speak about provincial involvement in training people for the cultural sector and give us some details as to the kind of training program that is available, where it is available, what are the gaps, what is going on in preparing Manitobans to work in cultural industries.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, that is the purpose of the Strategic Planning Committee in that they are making this review, they are looking to identify the needs, they are looking to identify any gaps and to identify, in fact, where this training should be going and should be focused.
Ms. McGifford: Well, I wonder, then, if the minister could tell me of the Strategic Planning Committee's work. Have they identified any of the objectives? Where are we in this in preparing people to work in the cultural industries?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, what I understand at the moment is that they have just hired the consultant, that the terms of reference have just been developed with the consultant, and that there is now developing a plan of consultation. So, at the moment, that is the information that we have. There is no doubt that this is an important area. It is important to continue to attract for the industry, and so we will be very supportive, in any way possible, of this Strategic Planning Committee.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister or her staff know if we are able to provide film crews for all the productions, et cetera, that are taking place in Manitoba from Manitoba, or are we importing individuals from other areas in Canada and perhaps the U.S. in order to do the work that is currently taking place in the province?
Mrs. Vodrey: We have in Manitoba at the moment two full-time crews, and I understand that we are training crews as quickly as we possibly can. At the moment we do still need to have some people come into Manitoba to assist where required because the industry is so vibrant. It is also somewhat of a mobile workforce as well, and so it may not be unusual to have people come into Manitoba to assist where we require even additional support.
Ms. McGifford: The minister has precisely made the point in why I was asking questions about training. I wonder if the minister works with the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. McIntosh) on any of the issues.
Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is yes.
Ms. McGifford: I have no more questions on the Arts Branch.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (e) Arts Branch (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $542,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $120,400; (3) Grant Assistance $4,010,300--pass.
Item 14.2.(f) Public Library Services.
Ms. McGifford: I wanted to ask the minister what her position on membership fees for Winnipeg public libraries is.
Mrs. Vodrey: Could I just ask the member to repeat the question, please.
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Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister what her position on membership fees for Winnipeg public libraries is. That is to say: does the minister believe or does her government believe that membership fees should be charged for accessing materials from the Winnipeg Public Library?
Mrs. Vodrey: Our government has not supported a membership fee for public libraries, and that continues to be our position.
Ms. McGifford: In other words, the minister is saying that her government would not support an amendment to The City of Winnipeg Act which would allow for membership fees for Winnipeg public libraries.
Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct, we would not support an amendment for membership fees.
Ms. McGifford: Last year we talked about the report, Quality and Access: The Future of Public Libraries in Manitoba. The first recommendation in that report is to strengthen and update the Manitoba Public Libraries Act, and I would like to ask the minister today whether progress has been made in regard to updating the Winnipeg Public Libraries Act.
Mrs. Vodrey: At the moment there are not any plans to amend The Public Libraries Act. I have met with the MAPLIN committee, and I believe I have also had this discussion with that committee. I have been, however, encouraging continued province-wide resource-sharing of library resources, and I believe that this can be accommodated through the existing regulations.
Ms. McGifford: Last year, I believe the minister agreed that this Public Libraries Act was dated and in need of amendment.
Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
I think I am quoting directly from the minister when she said: "I will undertake to determine how I might be able to do that in the next while."
So the minister is telling me today that nothing has been done.
Mrs. Vodrey: It is not that nothing has been done. It is that I have now a much greater familiarity. In our early discussions, it was certainly a possibility, and I was making appointments to the MAPLIN board at that time. I have now had the opportunity to meet with them. I have now had an opportunity to work with libraries. I have also communicated this, as I recall, to the MAPLIN board and have tried to set out with them some initiatives, again the resource-sharing being one. I had, in my last meeting with them, spent a significant amount of time--I beg your pardon. The Public Library Board, sorry. I beg your pardon, just for correction in terms of Hansard and also the member.
But as I have met with the Public Library Advisory Board, I have, in fact, listened to each of the members in terms of their issues, in terms of how they see the future, and have been trying very carefully to work with each of the members. Where they had an opinion of what they would like to be done, I have agreed to try to provide further consideration. So I would not say in any way that nothing has been done, but a decision has been taken at this time.
Ms. McGifford: I meant in my remark that nothing had been done on the first recommendation, which was to strengthen and update the Manitoba Public Libraries Act. I am then understanding the minister to say that she and the current Public Library Advisory Board do not agree with the report that suggested that this act was in need of updating and amendment.
Mrs. Vodrey: I think the member is trying to provide perhaps too much of a précis on the issue. I can tell the member that I have had a discussion with the Public Library Advisory Board. There would be perhaps some interest in having resource-sharing legislated, and my position is that at the moment I believe that the resource-sharing can be accommodated through the existing regulations and that the co-operative approach is certainly a reasonable approach to look at how we can make this happen. Where there are ways that I can assist in making that happen, then I am quite interested in doing that.
So, Mr. Chair, at the moment there are not plans to amend The Public Libraries Act. However, I would not want that to be perceived as any lack of interest on my part or of our government's in terms of the library issues and initiatives. I have taken part in a number of conferences. I have made an effort to meet, again, with the Public Library Advisory Board and with libraries across the province or through my own department. I am very interested in it, but it does not, at the moment, require an update or a change, amendments to the act.
Ms. McGifford: I certainly was not speaking in favour of nonco-operation. My point is simply that a committee struck by this government recommended review and amendments to the Manitoba Public Libraries Act. The work has not been done. I am asking the minister--and she does not have to answer, of course, and probably is choosing not to--whether she disagrees with the committee that her own government struck and the recommendations of the committee which were contained in a report commissioned by her own government. So that was my question.
I wanted to ask the minister whether the Public Library Board appointments now comply with The Public Libraries Act.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, they do. As of last year, the Senate appointment had been made, and the current chair has been chosen by the board, and yes, they are in compliance.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I wonder if the minister could tell me if there is any stipulation as to the number of times this board meets or should meet, I suppose. Secondly, are the minutes of their meetings available to the public?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, to my knowledge, there is not a requirement of the number of meetings. I understand that they generally meet approximately six times a year, and I am informed that they have met at least three times since September now.
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Ms. McGifford: The second part of that question is: are the minutes of these meetings available to the public?
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand and I am informed that they do not take minutes, that they participate on a discussion basis because they are advisory.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, last year the minister told me that there was a funding formula with regard to library grants to the City of Winnipeg, and that I believe she said it was 11 percent of the operating budget to a maximum of approximately $1.9 million. I wonder if that formula prevails for this year.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it does.
Ms. McGifford: Has that formula ever been reviewed or is there a process for review of it?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there is not a formal mechanism for review. I understand that until this year they have always been below the maximum. This is the first year that they have, in fact, reached the maximum.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me, please, will the City of Winnipeg then receive this $1.9 million this year?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we expect that in this coming fiscal year they will, and we do have that money available for them.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could compare the grant to the City of Winnipeg to the grants made in similar jurisdictions across the city on a per capita basis. That is to say, does the government grant to Winnipeg on a per capita basis compare favourably with the government grants on a per capita basis to other major cities in Canada?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I do have some figures for this. For large libraries in 19 Canadian cities with populations over 175,000, provincial funding per capita for Winnipeg public libraries ranks fourth out of 19, and provincial funding at 11 percent of the budget places Winnipeg public libraries third out of 19.
Ms. McGifford: According to a chart I have, in 1996 the provincial government on a per capita basis funded Winnipeg public libraries at the rate of $2.96 per Winnipegger, I would assume, and the rural and northern rates were $7.93 per individual. I am not quarrelling with these figures or suggesting that there is anything wrong, but there is quite a difference. I wonder if there is a social policy objective behind this and if the minister could explain that to me.
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand the reasoning, and I understand that it has taken place over a number of years. The rural grants are matched up to $7.50 per capita, and this has been to encourage development in the rural library system.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me if the grant that the Manitoba government makes to the City of Winnipeg has any provisos? If so, what are they, or is it just, here you are, here is the cash?
Mrs. Vodrey: There are not any conditions regarding the funding. We do encourage them to share, but that is not a condition of the grant, sharing resources.
Ms. McGifford: I am sorry, Mr. Chair, I just wanted to clear up something with the minister. Does the minister mean share resources throughout the province, within the city? I wonder if she could elaborate on her statement.
Mrs. Vodrey: I mean that to be a sharing throughout the province through other library systems. I am looking at encouraging and sharing of resources in general.
Ms. McGifford: I have no more questions on the Public Library Services.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (f) Public Library Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $757,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $677,900--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $4,311,200--pass.
Item 14.2.(g) Historic Resources (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, last year I think I asked the minister for a list of members of the Manitoba Heritage Council, and I do not believe I have received that list. So I would like to ask again for that list. It is just a small housekeeping matter.
Recently, I read a report of the Manitoba heritage resource impact assessment program which I found, by the way, very interesting, in fact, fascinating. Within that document, there was a summary of the results of heritage resources, impact assessments, during the 1994-95 fiscal year.
I want to ask some questions. First of all, is there a report of the results of the heritage resources impact assessment program's work for each fiscal year?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, in our annual report on page 20, it is noted that there were 23 on-site assessments last year.
Ms. McGifford: Does the heritage resource impact assessment program publish a separate report, or is it merely part of the annual report, because I did somehow--I do not know how I accessed it, this 1994-95 book which was put out by this program.
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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, all I can say is that, to our knowledge, it is not a separate report, so I would be interested in seeing what the member has, and that the information is contained within our annual report.
Ms. McGifford: I will look up the document and make a copy for the minister when I find it, which might be quite difficult going through my file system.
I wondered if the minister could tell me what the budget for this program is, and is it within Historic Resources?
Mrs. Vodrey: It is part of the operating budget of Historic Resources.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister then indicate to me which line this budget is included in and what the amount of the budget is?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it would be 14.2.(g)(1) and (2).
Ms. McGifford: And the amount of the budget?
Mrs. Vodrey: We would have to get for the member anything expended specifically on this because it is simply a part of the operating budget which is listed here.
Ms. McGifford: I would appreciate any further information in that regard. I wonder if the minister could tell me generally who initiates a request for an impact assessment. Is it a representation from a cultural group, from individuals? What is the process?
Mrs. Vodrey: The request can come from our municipal advisory committees, they can come from individuals, they can come as a result of our own assessment. We are aware when development is being done, if there may be an interest in a certain area, and also we have trained people in the logging industry so that when the logging industry is operating that they are at least alert to some of these issues.
Ms. McGifford: How is the decision made whether to go ahead with an impact assessment? Is it determined by whether or not a request meets certain screening criteria?
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that there is a visual site inspection, and then with that visual site inspection it is also referenced with a great deal of survey information which we have at the moment. Then all of that information is put together and a decision is made.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister is aware of the concerns of Ruth Swan in regard to the Pembina Metis cemetery and whether her department has been involved in this issue.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am certainly aware of communication from Ruth Swan, and my department has been working with Ruth Swan. The area she is interested in, however, is in North Dakota, and because of that it is within the jurisdiction of the North Dakota government, but whatever assistance we have been able to provide her with we have.
Ms. McGifford: Has the minister written to the governor of North Dakota or any other North Dakota authorities about Ruth Swan's issue?
Mrs. Vodrey: Those letters have come from the staff level, and it is our understanding, my understanding, that letters have gone from the staff level.
Ms. McGifford: Has a reply been received, or is the whole issue still in transition?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the staff have been in touch with staff in North Dakota, and they attempt to let Ruth Swan know any progress that has occurred.
Ms. McGifford: I noticed the minister said, there is an attempt to let her know. Have you not been able to locate her?
Mrs. Vodrey: Sorry, Mr. Chair. The member may have misunderstood me. There has been communication with her, and there does not seem to be any difficulty in finding her.
Ms. McGifford: So the issue appears to have been resolved, but not in the way that Ruth Swan wanted it to be resolved. Is that accurate?
Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct, Mr. Chair, because it is not within our jurisdiction.
Ms. McGifford: So the minister feels there is nothing more that she, her department, or the Premier (Mr. Filmon) can do to protect these graves, this cemetery?
Mrs. Vodrey: Well, Mr. Chair, it does not appear at the moment anyway that there is more, but we certainly are willing to work with Ruth Swan. We have tried to provide her with whatever support she needs, with whatever background that we can do, but jurisdictionally, when it is not within the jurisdiction of the province of Manitoba, then we have to rely on the goodwill of the other jurisdiction involved, that being North Dakota.
Ms. McGifford: I had heard that Historic Resources was no longer publishing the series of books. I am holding a copy here. I am sure that people are all familiar with this series. Is it true that they are no longer being produced?
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand some are out of print and some are being translated, and there appears to be some turnover. The one the member held up in particular I am not sure of.
Ms. McGifford: I was just citing this as an example. So then there is no plan to disband the production of this material?
Mrs. Vodrey: No, there is no plan to disband that.
Ms. McGifford: I am finished with Historic Resources.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (g) Historic Resources (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,161,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $335,300--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $869,300--pass.
Item 14.2.(h) Recreation and Wellness Promotion (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $497,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $217,400--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $654,900--pass.
Item 14.2.(j) Regional Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $882,800--pass; (2) Other expenditures $299,100--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $35,100--pass.
Resolution 14.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $31,120,600 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
The time being five o'clock, time for private members' hour. Committee rise.