Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good afternoon. Will Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Status of Women.
When the committee last sat to consider these Estimates, it had been agreed that questioning would proceed in a general manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning had been completed. I am therefore opening the floor for questions.
If I could just ask the minister's staff to come up and maybe the minister would like to introduce her staff present.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I am pleased to introduce again to you, Theresa Harvey, the assistant deputy minister; Ruth Mitchell, who is the head of Policy; and, from the Women's Advisory Council, Sandra Hasenack, who is the chair of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, and Sue Barnsley, who is the executive director.
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I just wanted to recall for the minister, last day when Estimates ended I think we were talking about--I had a question from the annual report on the Status of Women, page 7. I think what I had asked the minister about was gender analysis. I had asked the minister if she had considered implementing gender-based analysis in evaluating government policies.
Just pursuant to that, I wonder if this was a consideration and if any work has been done towards it, if there are any documents or what the situation is there.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, there has been some work done in Manitoba, but I would just say that it is my understanding that though the federal government has, in fact, developed this, it does not necessarily mean that it has always been used or reflected upon. I understand that they did use this comprehensive gender analysis when they revamped the employment insurance scheme, but it is my impression that they did not use the gender analysis when they were looking at Canada Pension Plan reform.
And so, until such a workable document is developed, I would just like to say to the member that it is my responsibility to raise, in as comprehensive a way as I can, the consideration of the effects on women of Manitoba, of policies in this government, to participate in all policy discussion. I do that with a great deal of seriousness because I have a genuine interest in this area.
Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Ms. McGifford: Just to suggest to the minister, though, the federal government may not always implement its own policies--once in a while they have a good idea; I thought that was a pretty good one.
Anyway, I wanted to ask a question based on the annual report of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. It is a very general question. On page 4, I read that one of the roles of the advisory council is to formulate, and submit to the Manitoba government, recommendations which can shape policies, programs and legislation which promote equality of opportunity for women. My question is: is this usually done when it is requested or is it done often at the initiative of the advisory council?
Mrs. Vodrey: I can say that it is done both ways. There are times that I will ask the advisory council for information or for consideration of certain issues, and there are times that issues are brought to me as minister and I will then either facilitate a meeting with a minister responsible for that area, make sure that there is an opportunity for the issues which the advisory council wishes to raise to have that directly to the minister.
Ms. McGifford: Can the minister outline for me the process followed in selecting the chair of the advisory council?
Mrs. Vodrey: This is an appointment by government, and I believe it is an Order-in-Council appointment. So government then is able to look to candidates who have taken various leadership roles and also who are able to devote some time necessary to the management issues of the advisory council, and those are some of the considerations which are given.
Ms. McGifford: I was interested more in where the list of possible candidates comes from.
Mrs. Vodrey: Government can generate those names, though if there are community members who feel that there are people that they would like to put forward names, then certainly they would be considered as well either for chair or for membership.
Ms. McGifford: So if I understand the minister correctly, then, it may be possible for an organization in the community to think that they have a perfect candidate for the chair to contact the minister to make this suggestion, and that suggestion may possibly be taken into consideration.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it is possible that community groups may in fact decide. Obviously something in writing is the most helpful, outlining the reasoning for certainly recommendations, and they would be considered along with others which in fact may come from government itself.
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Ms. McGifford: I wonder if community groups are apprised of this and if any groups have ever suggested candidates.
Mrs. Vodrey: My understanding is that the community is aware of this, and I am informed that community groups did submit names to the advisory council. Those names then will be submitted on to me for consideration for some spots which may become available due to the terms finishing of some members.
I do want to make it clear, however, these are government appointments, so I will be looking for a balance. I want to make sure that geographically there is representation for the women of Manitoba and also areas of interest and particular concern for the women of Manitoba.
Ms. McGifford: Is it customary or at least has it happened frequently that the chair is nominated from the already appointed councillors?
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mrs. Vodrey: To my knowledge, the last two persons to chair did not come from the membership. The current chair has not come from the advisory council membership, but I would have to find out if back beyond that whether that was a method or not.
Ms. McGifford: I would appreciate any information that the minister can provide, and also I would be interested in, if this is possible information, knowing which community groups have suggested persons for council positions.
I just have one other question on the annual report, and that is that I know that the advisory council selected priority issues last year, and they were teenage pregnancy, women's health and wellness, violence against women, and child care. I wonder if there are any reports or written information on the work they did in those areas and if that is available.
Mrs. Vodrey: It is my understanding that there is not a document on these issues. However, the issues were covered at luncheon meetings which are held by the advisory council to which the community is invited. A topic area is discussed. If there is information that can be distributed or brought forward at that time, then that is available. The information may be produced by any community group or part of government which is dealing with that particular issue.
Ms. McGifford: Well, the minister has been clear that there are not any reports, but I am glad that she brought up the luncheon meetings, because I wanted to congratulate the council on holding the luncheon meetings. I think they are a very good idea, and although I keep putting them in my calendar and meaning to attend, something seems to come up. So although I have, I think, been to maybe one or two in the past year, I would really like to have attended more. I congratulate the advisory council on that work.
Perhaps I could ask some questions based on last year's Estimates, some follow-up. Last year, we discussed the regional health authority boards. I believe the minister told me that 30 percent of the boards, approximately, were comprised of females and that 70 percent of males. I think I voiced concern because I think women's health needs generally are more fully responded to if women are raising those issues. I believe last year I asked the minister what action she was undertaking towards gender parity and she said that she was preparing information on rural health authorities, distributing information to women's groups across the province so that women could understand how rural health authorities work. So my question is: has that information been prepared and distributed, who prepared it, which groups received it, and could I have a copy of that information and any feedback to that information?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that the directorate has been in contact with the RHAs, though a letter has not been sent out yet, and so I do not have that to table for the member. However, I would also point out that the latest information I have is that to date, 34 percent of the make-up of the new RHAs and the Winnipeg and Brandon boards are women. It is important for women to understand what criteria are being used in terms of appointments and then what other ways women can, in fact, influence the direction of the RHAs. I understand also from the advisory council that council has continued an almost three-year involvement in women and the health reform working group, a group of approximately 60 organizations and individuals. In this role, council has facilitated this group's access again to relevant ministers or others who would benefit from their two-way communication on health issues. Council has also incorporated a group fax list to send out all relevant information, meeting dates, and pertinent issues articulated by this group to its members in the committee.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I obviously brought up the question last year because I thought gender parity was extremely important, and while I am glad to hear that the number of women has increased by approximately 4 percent, I do note that at that rate it will take four more years if we continue to increase at 4 percent. So I feel in the interim, women's health issues are not probably being addressed in the way they need to be, so I am sorry about that.
Last year, I also brought up the question of equality in the civil service, and I quoted from the Civil Service Commission's work, Putting Equality to Work, which stated that in the Civil Service Commission, first of all, women are concentrated in administrative support services, that is, 94 percent are women; two, that women are underrepresented in management, administration, corrections, regulatory inspections, materials management, resource science, architecture, engineering, trades and physical sciences; and three, that women comprise 69 percent of all term employees. These are certainly disheartening stats.
Last year I asked the minister what her department might be doing in this connection, and the minister told me that the directorate is working with the Civil Service Commission on a strategy to develop women in executive management and to look at interchange programs or stewardship programs, et cetera.
My question is: has this strategy been completed? Has it been implemented? What are the results? Also, I wondered if there was a copy of the strategy that I could have for my records.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to make one more comment on the women and their participation in RHAs or other methods that women can become involved in health reform. I just wanted to mention that women will have the opportunity to become involved in health care reform in their region as members of the district health councils and also the provider advisory councils. I think that the provider advisory council, without suggesting one over the other, but there are many women in rural Manitoba who are participants in the system and who also work within the system in many capacities. So there are two ways that women may become involved in addition to the RHA itself.
I understand that both the district health council and the provider advisory council will work very closely with the RHA in each region. So there are a couple of ways. I certainly and our government think it is very important for women to in fact have an influence on the health system. They must become aware of the criteria and where their particular interests fit, and we will certainly continue to work with the RHAs to make sure that that information is out and that women know what their opportunities are.
In terms of women in the civil service, as I said last year and would like to say again, we are very supportive of women taking decisions within the civil service. In fact, since we have taken office in 1988, the percentage of women in senior officer and equivalent classifications has increased from 17.18 percent to 23.8 percent in 1997. I do not have, obviously, the 1998 figures. I understand that this is then a 34.3 percent increase in terms of women in the senior officer and equivalent classifications. So in numerical terms, it is also quite significant for women. I would just like to outline that there are now three deputy ministers and 10 assistant deputy ministers, two associate deputy ministers, and one CEO.
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I also would just like to say that there are some mentorship programs which have been developed in the civil service. The program is called Executive Development for Women in an attempt to help women prepare for taking more senior positions and also to provide encouragement for women to take more senior positions.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, to revert just briefly again to the health care discussion or the rural health authority question, the minister mentioned that women may be encouraged to serve on district health councils, advisory councils. That may be a very good idea, and I appreciate that suggestion. On the other hand, I think it is important that women not only give advice but that women make decisions and generate policy. It would be the rural health authority who finally makes decisions. I think that for far too long women have been the recipients of social policy and not the generators of it. That is why I think it is important to have women in positions where they make decisions.
Leaving that aside, the minister mentioned the mentorship program in connection with the question on the Civil Service. Now last year the minister had said--and I believe that it is a direct quote from the minister--that the directorate is working with the Civil Service Commission on a strategy to develop women in executive management, et cetera, et cetera. Is the mentorship program this strategy or is the strategy further ranging? Is there any policy paper on it? Could the minister respond please?
Mrs. Vodrey: As I know the member can imagine, it is a multifaceted effort to encourage women to develop their skills and talents and also to take the risks and to move into some of the more senior levels of government. So I spoke about the management training program. The Executive Development Program I think is probably the more correct title. Then the next program which I believe follows to her question is Management Internship Program for masters degree graduates where women are appropriately represented and it will help them move into senior management positions.
Ms. McGifford: Has the directorate set any goals, for example, such as a percentage of women in positions of senior management? I realize that is a very difficult undertaking for the directorate since they clearly do not do the hiring and what not, but I wonder if the directorate has set any goals as far as numbers of women.
Mrs. Vodrey: No, there has not been a target of numbers or percentage, again partly because the opportunity may be based on retirements or other changes in people's lives, especially at the senior level. But certainly the directorate has seen its role to make sure that women receive encouragement to make these changes or to enter into the programs where it is possible for them.
Ms. McGifford: I know that other institutions, for example, universities, face the same kind of obstacles. Yet I think that they have undertaken, some institutions have undertaken, to set goals for themselves, so it is something to consider.
I also wanted to ask a question on prorated benefits for part-time workers which was a topic that we discussed last year when I asked the Minister for the Status of Women, in view of the large number of women who work part-time outside the house or indeed the number of women who work at two and three part-time positions, if she would advocate with her colleagues on behalf of prorated benefits for part-time workers?
Last year the minister told me that she thought the idea deserved further examination. I am wondering if the idea has been examined and what the results would be.
Mrs. Vodrey: Just following up on the member's question--and I know she knows this--that the Manitoba government, as an employer, is prorated. I understand that to cause that to happen in other areas, it is the purview of Employment Standards. I do not have any specific information on that with me today.
Ms. McGifford: Well, then, Mr. Chair, in view of the minister's comments last year that she thought the idea deserved further examination I wonder if there will be plans for this issue to be examined and any recommendations, perhaps, going forward from the directorate to this government.
Mrs. Vodrey: I certainly understand what the member is speaking about in terms of part-time employees. However, the employer is in the private sector and to my knowledge our legislation does not cover that. So I think that one of the appropriate ways to do it is in working in a co-operative way to make sure that this is known and known as an issue to private sector employers. That may be one of the best ways to go about this in a co-operative way.
Ms. McGifford: Well, since the minister is the Minister for the Status of Women and since any examination of the job stats shows that I think 35 percent of women workers are working part time and, as I am sure everybody at the table knows, many of these women are working what is the equivalent of full-time hours except they cannot get full-time work and, therefore, working at two and, as I said before, sometimes three part-time jobs without any benefit, I wonder if this minister would consider recommending legislation that would legislate prorated benefits for part-time workers.
Mrs. Vodrey: My understanding is that at the moment government has been working in a more co-operative sense with employers raising issues and obviously, as in anything, we want to--I think working co-operatively often tends to have the greatest benefit. By recommending legislation, sometimes you can create such difficulty that the employer can no longer continue to act as an employer and then that does not benefit anyone. Not only does it remove any opportunity for prorated benefits, in some cases it removes the job itself.
So I think that at this point it is our government's position that working co-operatively, making sure issues are understood, but issues understood on all sides, that being that there is a job created and a person who wants to work in that job but that further benefits, where possible, may be negotiated by that employer.
I certainly, though, understand what the member is saying in terms of the number of women taking these jobs and for lots of reasons. I think that one of the things that we have to do for young women, then, is to make sure that young women understand the current situation in terms of employment, that young women are encouraged to make very strategic choices in their own careers and that people, as they move into their working life, are fully understanding of what the realities of that working life are at the moment.
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Ms. McGifford: Well, I certainly agree with the minister that co-operation is extremely important and that co-operation may at times urge employers to provide employee benefits like prorated benefits. I am also aware, on the other hand, that there are unscrupulous employers who will take advantage of the lack of legislation to provide nothing from their employees. I am aware that many Manitobans are being victimized by these unscrupulous employers, who may be and I am sure are a very small minority of the number of employers in Manitoba.
So the downside to there not being legislation is the potential victimization of Manitobans. So I think that it is important that both sides of the argument be on the record.
To move on, last year when we met, the minister told me that there was to have been a meeting of provincial ministers for the Status of Women, along with the federal minister, and that that meeting was to have taken place in early June or late May, but the meeting was delayed because of the federal election. I believe that this meeting eventually did take place in November, and if I remember correctly, our minister at that time was unable to attend. So I wanted to ask the minister if we had a representative at this meeting, as I am sure we did, and who the representative was, and is there any report on the subjects discussed and a report that could be shared?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, Manitoba was represented at that meeting by the assistant deputy minister, Theresa Harvey, who participated fully in the federal-provincial-territorial meeting. The issues that were discussed at that meeting that were of priority importance were these: first of all, the economic indicators, and the economic indicators study was released, I understand, at that meeting; the second issue, which is still underway with ministers, is violence against women, developing a strategic framework; and the third issue was Canada Pension Plan reform.
Ms. McGifford: Then the proposed--several years ago--national child care program, I am gathering, was not on the table--well, it would not be on the table--but was not discussed. I think it is important to note that Canada is one of the few OECD countries without a system of publicly funded care for children. It seems to me that the federal government really has reneged on its promise to fund a national child care program, and I am sorry that this issue was not brought to the table. Perhaps it is something that should be discussed another year.
One of my concerns--and I gather it was not discussed, but it is related to federal matters, so maybe I could bring it up now--and that is last year we talked about Bill C-46, the bill that had its genesis in the O'Connor case. I think that this bill was passed last April 25, 1997. The minister and I discussed the bill, and I am sure that she remembers the discussion and, obviously, remembers the bill. I have some questions because I understand that Bill C-46--and I guess it is now an act--did not really protect the records of domestic abuse victims and that the Manitoba Advisory Council had applied for witness status before the Justice standing committee on Bill C-46 to address the issue, but that this application for witness status had been ruled out of order. I wondered if this issue, that is, the protection of domestic abuse victims' confidential records, had been pursued.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that the basis of any changes that were being considered were simply changes to the act as it was, and that there was not the ability to add to the act or to extend the act. Our province had presented earlier in the development of that bill our interest in having further protection, but, unfortunately, that was not accepted by the federal government.
Ms. McGifford: Since domestic violence was apparently on the table during the meeting in November, I wonder if the protection of domestic abuse victims' confidential records was pursued at that meeting. I see that Ms. Harvey is indicating that it was not pursued, but I am wondering if the advisory council or the Women's Directorate is interested in pursuing this issue further because obviously it is a concern that most of us share and maybe we need to do something on it.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that that was not considered and discussed. I certainly understand the member's point; in fact, I think we are in agreement on the point of what the extension in terms of that act.
Ministers are meeting again to look at this violence against women, the strategic framework across the country, and it certainly is possible to have that discussed again. It does, however, require not only the support of Manitoba's Justice minister, and I believe we have a position on the record of that, but the support of Justice ministers from all across the country as well as the federal minister. That did appear not to happen in the years when that bill was developed, so I would add that to my agenda in terms of initiatives to speak about when we are together as ministers again. I certainly understand the point of at least raising the issue so that it can be considered and perhaps others can go back and attempt to seek support.
Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, then the official position and the on-the-record position of this government is that domestic abuse victims' confidential records should be protected in the same or a very similar way to the way in which sexual abuse records are protected.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I would ask the member if she could clarify that with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) in terms of what is currently on the record and the stated position, but at the time that I had that responsibility that was the position that was taken. I would just have to ask her though to look and see, ask the minister if he could then just confirm that position.
Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for her answer. Bill C-46, of course, has not ended the attempt to requisition confidential records. I have a clipping from the Winnipeg Free Press, dated October 23, 1997, and if I can just quote from it, we have a story of a woman in--I will not quote, I will sum it up. We have the story of a woman in Alberta who, for reasons of the fear that her records would be subpoenaed or requisitioned, did not seek counselling. Eventually the person who assaulted her was convicted, and only then did she seek counselling.
There appear to be several instances in which the legislation--and I do not know the legal explanations, but simply has not worked. For example, Justice Sandra Capnik of the Ontario Court's General Division ruled Bill C-46 violated the accused's rights to a fair trial and ordered the complainant's files be produced.
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My question to the minister is: I wonder if the advisory council or the directorate is working on this issue. Does the minister know if the Department of Justice is pursuing the issue in any way?
Because I think it is quite clear that this issue is not over. It is only a matter of time until a ruling is challenged in Manitoba and I do not think any of us want women's records to be part of the courtroom proceedings. I wonder if the minister or her department is doing any lobbying with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), or what, if anything, is being done on this issue.
Mrs. Vodrey: As the member knows from the conversation we have had today, there certainly was work done before at the time of the development of the bill and an attempt by the advisory council to speak about the extension. However, when that was denied, at the moment, to my knowledge, there has not been an ongoing effort to change and to extend that bill to include those victims of domestic violence.
I would have to ask the member to ask the Minister of Justice about any current issues, which may be on the table of Justice ministers, because I am not aware specifically of this issue having been raised again. However, I have said to the member that I will raise it as part of the issues that I can bring forward at our next meeting since it is a position that I think is certainly worthy of investigation and examination.
Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for her answer. Last year in Estimates we discussed women's programming, that is, the women's programming funded by the federal government, and I think we both know that there were some grave misgivings on the part of community organizations regarding their uncertainties about funding from this source. Some time this year, NAC began a fair share campaign in an attempt to increase funding to women's programs, and they pointed out that a cup of coffee costs approximately 90 cents and that the federal women's program spends 53 cents on each woman and girl in Canada. I would just like to provide the minister with a copy. I apologize for not having three copies.
Anyway, they pointed out that a cup of coffee costs 90 cents approximately and the women's program spends approximately 53 cents on each woman and girl in Canada. They pointed out that funding in 1996-97 was $8,165,000, which is down a whopping $5 million since 1989. In the mid-'80s, if my memory serves me correctly, because I was working in the women's community at that time, the budget was around $16 million.
So basically what NAC was asking for was a toonie. That is, let us spend $2 for every woman and girl in Canada, which would be around $30 million. Sounds good to me, and I want to ask the minister if the advisory council is familiar with the NAC proposal, if there have been any communications between the offices. Has the advisory council ever lobbied in support of the NAC proposal?
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that at the moment that issue has not come forward specifically to the advisory council; however, they will be meeting with their counterparts across the country. I am sure that this issue can be discussed at that point.
Ms. McGifford: Women's programming was not discussed at the meeting in November?
Mrs. Vodrey: No, I am informed it was not.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if there is communication between the minister and her federal counterpart in Ottawa on the question of funding to women's programming. Has the minister been asked to make suggestions, participate in discussions? I will leave it at that.
Mrs. Vodrey: The funding to women's programming, to my memory, was only a brief discussion, and it was at least one or two meetings ago that this was raised at all--raised by the federal government or by members around the table.
We have been interested in the research funding that has been going on and did want to speak with the federal minister about it. I in fact did speak to her about it in a phone conversation fairly recently in terms of wanting to make sure that we as a province knew what, in fact, was being funded by the federal government and who that funding was going to for research. She has let me know that she will provide some further information to that when we next meet. That has been basically the focus of the discussions.
Ms. McGifford: I am a little unclear as to what the research funding is. Does the minister know if that is the funding pool that provides funding for local women's groups, for example, the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women? Any of a number of women's groups that I know are funded through Family Disputes often receive a few thousand dollars from women's programming which enables them to do educational programs within their organizations, for example. I wonder if the minister has any sense of where that funding is or is not.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the federal government has provided information on how women's programs are funded. They have produced a booklet about who would qualify and so on. If she would like, we can provide her with a copy of that.
Ms. McGifford: I would appreciate that. I believe that one of the issues discussed at the meeting in November was economic indicators. I wonder what work is being done in Manitoba to produce statistical indicators on the economic equality of Manitoba women, and I wonder if there is any information that is available.
Mrs. Vodrey: The national project did include Manitoba figures, and I understand that the Manitoba figures within that project did show that Manitoba compared favourably.
Ms. McGifford: Is there a report that it is possible for me to have a copy of.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is a public report. It was released at the ministers' meeting in November. The member can certainly have a copy and we will provide her with one.
Ms. McGifford: When I did my introductory statement, I talked about or at least alluded to the presentation on pornography that was organized by the advisory council--I believe it was last June at Kelvin High School--and I know that the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) attended and was not impressed with the pornography but felt that it was a very important presentation for MLAs. I was not able to attend and so I wonder if the minister would be interested in making that presentation available to her colleagues at the Legislature.
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Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I think the Women's Advisory Council really worked very hard and is to be commended on this particular presentation, which raised awareness. Certainly for any caucus or members who would be interested in pursuing a presentation, then I am sure the advisory council would be happy to assist them in organizing that presentation.
Ms. McGifford: So the process would be to contact the advisory council. I am seeing nods, so I take that as an affirmation. One of the things that we have discussed in the House with frequency is the Lavoie inquiry, and I wonder if the minister could outline for me the roles that the council and directorate have played with regard to the implementation committee of the Lavoie inquiry's recommendations.
Mrs. Vodrey: Well, just starting with what council is doing in the area of domestic violence, the council is very active in this area. I am informed that--well, here are some of the examples of their work on this issue. At present, council is represented on the Lavoie Implementation Committee's public awareness working group which is developing a public awareness campaign on domestic violence. Council also has sponsored 10 community members, as well as providing resource material to the Living Without Fear conference, which was sponsored by the Coalition of Filipino-Canadians on Violence Prevention.
I mentioned in my opening comments, as well, that council played a role in the development and implementation of the Victim's First Cellular Phone Program which enhances the short-term safety of high-risk domestic-abuse stalking victims. In fact, I would like to say on the record that the current chair of the advisory council actually raised this program as a possibility, brought it forward, and I am very happy that it was able to, in fact, be put into place and operationalized. I understand, as well, that it has really had an effect in the area of domestic violence simply by the person who sees the victim with the phone. If the accused or the potential abuser sees the victim with the phone, often that is enough to cause the potential abuser to move away from the situation.
In terms of the directorate, they actually are part of the central group in government who receives the reports of all of the working groups and in that way is able to make sure that they understand where the recommendations of the working groups are, in fact, going and what those recommendations may be.
Ms. McGifford: I am a little unclear about the latter piece of information the minister gave me. The directorate receives reports of the working groups, and I wonder if there is a bit more information that might clarify it.
Mrs. Vodrey: The directorate liaises with Jane Ursel's implementation team and receives informal reports of progress of all of the working groups who have not made their formal report yet.
Ms. McGifford: What does the directorate do with this material or--I am assuming, for one thing, that people at the directorate read it and study it, but do they support it or make other alternate suggestions? What role does the directorate play vis-a-vis this material?
Mrs. Vodrey: The directorate at the moment receives this as information developed by the working group.
Ms. McGifford: One of the issues that we have spoken about in the House is breast care and the Breast Care Clinic at the Misericordia Hospital. I wanted to ask the minister if she has been solicited by any citizens groups in regard to the Breast Care Clinic.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I have met and also received some letters from citizens and also had some phone calls from citizens around the issue of breast care.
Ms. McGifford: I know, and I know the minister knows that there are many women and women's groups who are very concerned about what they see is the fragmentation of services at the Misericordia Hospital, so I know that the minister has been approached.
I wanted to read into the record a letter from an individual which was sent to me, but because we are pressed for time I will not read it into the record. Maybe I could table it so that the minister receives a copy. The letter is from a woman named Alison Bailes who has been working with other women and advocating for women with breast care and for the prevention and treatment of this disease. But what I would like to ask the minister is has the directorate done work on this issue? Did the directorate provide any advice to the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) on this issue? Was the directorate asked for advice on this issue?
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the advisory council has had some individuals have contact with them, and they have made sure that I am aware that there has been some contact towards them. The directorate has made sure that I am aware that from the contacts with them that women want to make sure that there is a Breast Care Program within Manitoba that is not a fragmented program. That is certainly the message that I have received, a message that I have also communicated.
I am aware now that the program for breast care which has been put forward by the Winnipeg Health Authority is one which should in fact now provide greater comprehensive care in a few sites whereas in the past service has been somewhat fragmented. What women have said they need is they need the screening, and the screening has been enhanced by this government. But when something has been uncovered and causes a concern, they want a rapid access to diagnosis. They want to not have to move from a site for a diagnostic mammogram to perhaps another site for a biopsy to perhaps another site for surgery. So it is my understanding now that the program that has been developed should in fact offer to women a more comprehensive program, and that program also includes rapid access diagnosis.
It appears that the criteria that women have laid out in their communications with me and with other MLAs should now in fact be met through this comprehensive Breast Care Program that has been outlined by the WHA.
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Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have a very different view of the minister about the termination of the Breast Care Program at the Misericordia Hospital, but I think it probably is an area that could be more appropriately addressed with the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). I mean, I note in passing that breast screening is essential, but a small part of the total care package, so I just want to put that on the record.
The minister did bring up the question of screening and that brings up the question of cervical cancer because I know that Dr. Garry Krepart, who is a professor and head of gynecology and oncology at the University of Manitoba, is on record as saying, and I quote from him an article in the Winnipeg Free Press, April 7, 1998: If we had a cervical screening program in the province, with a registry for patient recall, and all women participated in the program, we could wipe out cancer of the cervix.
I want to add that we have not wiped out cancer of the cervix and that there are about 20 Manitoba women each year who die of cervical cancer, and although the disease can be stopped if it is detected in its early stages, Manitoba does not have a central registry for cervical cancer, despite promises from this government. The first promise was on April 7, 1994, in the Speech from the Throne, and here I quote: Health care for women will be increased with the implementation of regulated midwifery and enhanced breast cancer and cervical cancer screening. So this is a four-year-old promise. There was a second promise on June 1997. The innovation was announced all over again. A central registry was going to be established, and a single laboratory was going to study all Pap smears and all Pap smear specimens.
The government is now busily privatizing labs, and Sue Hicks, Associate Deputy Minister, now gives this privatization as the reason why screening cannot start for another year. So I want to ask the minister: what advocacy work she and her staff have done to expedite the creation of a central registry in testing for cervical cancer?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I just have to go back to the breast screening comments as well, just to say that, yes, I am aware that that is a separate but important part of the program, but many women go through breast screening in which they are perfectly healthy. It is the women looking for the very comprehensive care, where there has been a diagnosis of some abnormality, and when they, then, have to have a diagnostic mammogram and what follows from that diagnostic mammogram. That is the program which the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) will in fact be able to speak about in more detail, but which I understand now has been, in fact, put together to be a much more comprehensive program and also rapid in access and also in information being given back to the patient. That has been an important part for women.
In terms of the cervical cancer issue, I have met directly with Dr. Krepart. I am fully aware of the issue that he has spoken about and in which he was in the newspaper as well. I understand that he has now further meetings, and I have offered either to attend those meetings or to have the directorate attend those meetings with him so that the concerns of women are represented in addition to his own representation that he will make. I know that government has certainly been open to that meeting. I do not know if it has taken place yet, but I am aware that he was scheduling one.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister has any idea when there will be a central registry and testing for cervical cancer, a central testing for it.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, no, that question is probably best directed towards the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), but the issue is one that I am well aware of and the issue is one that has been brought to me directly as Minister responsible for the Status of Women, and one which I am prepared to carry forward to my colleague.
Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister if the Status of Women is part of the Systemhouse desktop project.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it is.
Ms. McGifford: I wonder then if the minister could tell me if any civil servants have lost their jobs or have lost part of their jobs because of contracting out, or how many may lose a position because of contracting out.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that, no, there has not been any job loss, and I am thinking in some of the detail the member would like to ask, though I can certainly answer some questions that she may have, but Government Services is probably the department in which the member could get the fullest amount of information regarding this initiative.
Ms. McGifford: Well, I appreciate that, but if this department is participating, then I am assuming that it would be possible to receive some answers from the department. I am wondering how many months of this year the project will be part of the Status of Women.
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the Status of Women is due to be transitioned in August of this year.
Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me what the cost will be?
Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have an estimated cost, and the estimated cost will, in fact, include both the advisory council and the directorate. The estimated cost is approximately $39,000.
Ms. McGifford: Will new computers be required and, if so, what will that cost be, or is it already included in the $39,000?
Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that is the cost of the total package for the Status of Women.
Ms. McGifford: So the $39,000 includes any new computers. I wonder how many new computers are involved.
Mrs. Vodrey: I understand the total for both is 14.
Ms. McGifford: I am prepared to pass then.
Mr. Chairperson: 22.1.(a) Manitoba Women's Advisory Council (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $167,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $108,600--pass.
22.1.(b) Women's Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $480,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $113,100--pass; (3) Grants $54,000--pass.
Resolution 22.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $923,800 for Status of Women for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
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This completes the Estimates for the Status of Women. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Shall we briefly recess so we can get ready for the next Estimates? [agreed]
The committee recessed at 4:30 p.m.
The committee resumed at 4:39 p.m.