4th-36th Vol. 51B-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members first to the loge to my right where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Brian Pallister, the former member for Portage la Prairie.

Also, seated in the public gallery, we have thirty-five Grade 6 students from Mahnomen School in Mahnomen, Minnesota, under the direction of Mrs. Julie Sanders.

Also, fifty-two Grade 5 students from Kleefeld School under the direction of Mr. Eldon Bestvater. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, yesterday the government confirmed that the waiting lists for many diagnostic tests were higher, significantly higher than any other Canadian city. We also have a situation since 1992 where waiting lists for children who need audiology programs and hearing programs and speech programs have had their services cut by this Premier (Mr. Filmon) and by this Conservative government year after year after year, a fact that was raised by Dr. Postl in the Postl report, further confirmed by the head of the Health Sciences Centre when he talked about a two-year waiting list for preschool children in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, a year after this minister was in office, I asked him what action he would be taking, and he has done nothing since he has been sworn in as Minister of Health. I would like to ask the Premier: why do our children, our preschool children and our children in early years of school have to continue to wait up to two years for needed diagnostic services and for therapy programs that they need to give themselves a chance to live a life of dignity in a Manitoba community?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, we did not confirm yesterday that we had the longest waiting lists of any city in the country. They vary from time to time across the city. I have indicated many times that our lists were not where we wanted them or acceptable to us, and that is why beginning last winter we began to invest additional dollars mid-year into providing the resources to bring those lists down.

Madam Speaker, again, with respect to the very important area that the Leader of the Opposition raises, we fully appreciate the need that is there, and part of addressing that need is the plan that was announced yesterday. I can confirm to him that the resources that we need to reduce those waiting lists from their current levels is being worked on now to be in place as part of this overall initiative in the Winnipeg hospital system.

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Mr. Doer: The minister's notes state that the waiting lists are significantly longer than those of other Canadian cities, a fact that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has denied repeatedly in defences of his cutbacks in health care, a fact that is contradicted by the Minister of Health's notes.

Madam Speaker, the government itself is being criticized by the Wellness Centre in ads that state that the government cutbacks have resulted in long waiting lists for families who are seeking pediatric rehabilitative services. They go on to say that they will provide these services at the Wellness Centre through the use of private services fee-for-service provisions for preschool children and for children in early years in education.

I would like to ask the government: when are they going to reinstate the services that this Premier has dramatically cut back to the children of our families so that they will not have to have a situation where only those who can afford to pay for these services are the only families that get these services in Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would remind the member with respect to the first part of his question that we have taken on some initiatives. One, for example, we announced and we are providing funding in western Manitoba for their program in expanded preschoolers for speech and language services. So there have been efforts made in parts of the province. The Winnipeg plan is now in place.

With respect to his comments about services for children, one of the great difficulties in the whole system that has been there is that the need for these services--partly because of increased technology that has increased the survival rate of children in childbirth--has created a growing demand for services in many areas that we have had to provide. I know in discussions that I have had with Dr. Postl, this is an area that he has flagged as a major growth area, and it is part of what is being addressed in the Winnipeg area and for the province in the plan that was announced yesterday.

Mr. Doer: The Wellness Centre's ad talks about this government's cutbacks. It is directly stating that in terms of what we know has happened since 1991 and '92 after the majority government, this government cut back virtually on most programs that served the most vulnerable in our communities.

Madam Speaker, the number of private clinicians providing speech and language therapy and audiology programs has gone from 10 in 1990 to 60 private, fee-for-service clinicians today. The waiting list for those people who can pay between $65 and $100 an hour is negligible. The waiting list for people who cannot pay that service is up to two years.

The Premier (Mr. Filmon) was stating just recently that he did not support a two-tier health care system for hepatitis C people. Why can this Premier support a two-tier health care system for preschool and early-year school children, one tier and one line for those who can afford $60 to $100 an hour and a two-year waiting list for those who cannot?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, it is very regrettable that it has become so fashionable in health care to blame every issue or problem on government cutbacks right across the country.

An Honourable Member: This is the Wellness Centre.

Mr. Praznik: Well, it may be the Wellness Centre; it may be the Manitoba Medical Association; it may be a host of other particular organizations. But I just say this to the member to put in context that every government in Canada and particularly this one has been increasing its expenditure on health care on a regular basis. Why, just over the last year we have added a hundred million dollars. One of the difficulties faced for our whole health-care delivery system is that the growth and need in that system for a variety of reasons--growth in technology, aging population--continues to require greater and greater amounts of expenditure, and it is difficult for all governments to keep up with every need as it grows. We try. We try the best we can. During this same period we have lost over $200 million in funding from the federal Treasury, and yet we have still maintained health services in our province.

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Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, one of the reasons that Manitobans do not jump up in joy and agree with everything the minister or the government says on health care is because of what the minister just responded to my Leader's question about the fact that for years we have had these long waiting lists and there has been nothing done. How does the minister expect Manitobans to believe when in fact the program says there is no program to be announced for speech and language, when in the last year, within the last year this government spent $2.4 million on renovating St. Boniface Hospital for neurosurgery--now neurosurgery is going to Health Sciences Centre--when they spent 2.9 on intensive care beds and coronary care beds when coronary care is going to Health Sciences Centre?

Madam Speaker, is there any wonder that there are grave doubts of members on this side of the House as to the credibility of this government delivering those programs like speech and language therapy when they have moved money around and are now wasting money like a million dollars on plastic surgery renovations in Misericordia, with now a change in plan again, over and over and over again?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Like all massive systems that are in need of change, there is always going to be a difficult period when that change takes place, and one of the things that we are attempting to do here, for the first time in the history of the city of Winnipeg, is to be able to build and operate our hospital system on a system-wide basis. That does not mean that planning and operation in the old system stopped, Madam Speaker, to wait. If we had done that, we would have been accused of doing the wrong thing by the members of the opposition.

Madam Speaker, decisions were made in the past. The design teams did their work, and the rationale behind each of their decisions is a very solid rationale. It was presented yesterday. The design teams worked very, very hard on it, and in each case they have proved in the long run and in the short run the ability of the hospital system to deliver service to patients in the city of Winnipeg, and that is what it is about.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Can the minister explain how it is that the government can find $3 million to pay the executives of the Winnipeg Health Authority, and yet to address the nursing shortage in the tertiary care facilities at St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre, the plan says, and I quote: nursing shortages at tertiary care centres have to be addressed immediately by transferring six to eight nurses from community hospitals to the tertiary care centres.

Can the minister not explain--how can he explain that that can possibly happen? They have money for executives and no money to hire new nurses, and they are going to take them from the community hospitals.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, is the member suggesting that the management of a nearly $700-million budget of public money should not have professional people to manage it? Should it just be managed by sending out cheques in the mail and say go and deliver health care without management?

Madam Speaker, the point of regionalization was to be able to bring together the management of the system to operate on a system-wide basis and ultimately to reduce the overall expenditure in management. That is what will go on. If our experience in rural Manitoba over the last year gives us any idea of what can happen, in some of the RHAs rurally where they had a large number of facilities, they have reduced their administrative dollars by nearly 50 percent. We expect savings in the Winnipeg system as well.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, will the minister, who did not address the question obviously, try to explain to this House why at least his predecessor, when he brought in hospital transition, put in $38 million in the budget, put in a specific budgetary item to deal with the transition and the additional cost, and this minister will not put one single penny, will not commit one penny to these changes except he will do it on a case by case? We have already shown--how are they going to deal with the tertiary care shortage? They are going to transfer nurses from community hospitals to the tertiary care, and already community hospitals are short.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): You know, in my year and a half in office, I recall decisions we made around the Grace Hospital and obstetrics where we made a decision to consolidate obstetrics. It saved $1.8 million which has now bought Manitobans 500 additional surgeries a year, and that was opposed by New Democrats. It was opposed by the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It was opposed by the member for Kildonan, and yet that move, that particular move and working on a system-wide basis means 500 Manitobans more a year will have hip and knee replacements. In each of these cases, these results were designed by people who work in the system. Each time I hear from the member for Kildonan on many of these things, at the end of the day their opposition to many of the changes would mean longer waiting lists and greater pain for Manitobans.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Education. In its submission to the special needs review, the Manitoba Speech and Hearing Association makes a very simple and clear statement, and I quote: that speech and language services are not sufficient to meet the vast needs--their words, Madam Speaker--of Manitoba students, with direct consequences for the child's ability to learn.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education to explain how her department's cuts to clinicians in previous budgets and how the hundred-million-dollar cut in the purchasing power of school divisions from this government has contributed to the growing waiting lists for children's services across the province.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Acting Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I know the Minister of Education, in Estimates, has had an opportunity and continues to have an opportunity to speak to the member in detail about this matter, but the issue of clinicians has been one which has been dealt with. I am sure the member has asked in the process of Estimates. If not, she may like to raise the question further. It has been important to this government to continue support so that school divisions can in fact determine what clinical services they need within their area, and the Minister of Education continues to support that.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the minister confirm that it is the unstable and unpredictable funding of this government that has added to the burdens of parents, and I quote from the Speech and Hearing Association's report, who relocate only to discover that the service has changed or been withdrawn or is no longer funded. It is difficult to predict from year to year how the education of a particular student in a designated location will be delivered.

Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I am sure the member did cover this in Estimates. I understand those Estimates may be finished, so I assume that some discussion did take place during the Estimates process of this important area when the minister was able to fully explain the position.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us how this newly promoted $60-an-hour diagnostic and therapeutic service available at the private Wellness Centre differs from a deliberately created two-tier system in education, the legacy of this Tory government?

Mrs. Vodrey: I totally reject what the member has delivered in her preamble in terms of any information that she has attempted to put on the record. In the many tens of hours, and I am not sure how many hours the member spent during Education Estimates, I am surprised that this issue did not come up.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. After the minister has been pointing fingers at everyone in sight for the release of dangerous offenders, the province's highest court yesterday pointed the finger right at his own department for its handling of Fabian Torres's gangland execution of Beeper Spence.

My question for the minister is, if the Crown prosecutors are indeed adequately supported, as the minister says, why did the Court of Appeal reprimand and question the wisdom of and the need for the Crown reducing Torres's plea from murder to manslaughter when the court says, and I quote: the facts do not support manslaughter, and says, I quote: the accused in the case before us has thus pleaded guilty to an offence he did not commit? He committed either murder or nothing.

Where is the tough talk now, Madam Speaker?

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Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the specific case involved a very complex and difficult fact situation. The Crown attorneys in the prosecution of that case made certain decisions, and they are always difficult decisions. I know that the prosecutors spent a lot of time with the victim's family to discuss this particular case.

One of the things that the Supreme Court of Canada has said is that courts should be careful before they attempt to second-guess a prosecutor's motives when he or she makes a decision. I am not questioning the right of the Court of Appeal to look at that situation, but sometimes there are issues that cannot very properly be shared with the court. Indeed, we know in this particular case there was a conviction of murder of one of the individuals, and there were convictions for manslaughter in some of the others.

Mr. Mackintosh: We will take the word of the Court of Appeal and not this minister, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I can indicate, Madam Speaker, that I as a political official do not become involved in those types of decisions. Those are decisions that are very carefully considered by our prosecutors. Our prosecutors made a decision. As I indicated, it was not an easy case--a very difficult case where the majority of the information was from other gang members. It was a very difficult case to prosecute.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Then could he at least explain why it also took one year to appeal Torres's conditional sentence that was only for one year, and meanwhile Torres was wandering around the community--because the court said the appeal could have been dealt with within three months and described it as a serious Crown delay.

Will he explain to the Gagnon family of Ste. Anne, if Torres is found guilty in that home invasion while he was wandering around, why his department failed to protect their safety? Where is this government when we need it?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I understand that the Crown immediately appealed the conditional sentence of May of 1997 and proceeded appropriately.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Premier. I was quite disappointed with the lack of leadership shown by the Premier yesterday on a very important issue facing Manitobans, and that was the whole issue of the two public Crown corporations, Madam Speaker, providing the same service of electricity.

My specific question to the Premier is: what is this government's position, or does it have a position on the need for amalgamation of Manitoba Hydro and Winnipeg Hydro?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we have encouraged Manitoba Hydro to pursue the issue of amalgamation with Winnipeg Hydro.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, yesterday the Premier said that the city was in opposition to it. My question to the Premier is: does the government have anything in written format to suggest that the City of Winnipeg would oppose discussions of any sort that would ultimately lead to a buy-out of Winnipeg Hydro?

Hon. David Newman (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, the whole issue of what might happen in the relationship between Winnipeg Hydro and Manitoba Hydro is in the hands of the City of Winnipeg at this point in time. There is no question that Manitoba Hydro has expressed interest in an integrated kind of system in the public interest for Manitoba, but the advisers, the professional independent advisers hired by the city have not shared the report, certainly, with my office. They presumably have shared it with the mayor and maybe Executive Policy Committee of the council of the City of Winnipeg. We await with interest as to what might emerge in the public interest, the province of Manitoba, to provide even better and more appropriate service to the citizens of the city of Winnipeg, but it is their move.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, given the minister's response, is it then safe to say that the position of this government is in favour of the two Crown corporations amalgamating and that in fact this government will be working aggressively to see that happen, that we are not going to let another decade pass and say, well, it is still in discussions?

Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, this will, of course, be the kind of concern, consideration, focus of attention when there is a sharing of information, when the City of Winnipeg's leadership determines what they perceive to be in the best interests of the citizens of the city of Winnipeg and customers of Winnipeg Hydro. That, then, will lead to a discussion which could lead to a negotiation, and then it comes to a matter of price and alternatives. That will be something which would take place in the normal give-and-take of corporate bodies that have responsibilities and have mandates and have budgets, and those sorts of things will ultimately result, I am sure, in an enlightened, responsible decision in the best interests of Manitobans as a whole.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways. Two years ago CNR announced that they were abandoning the Steep Rock line which ran to the Continental Lime plant at Faulkner, Manitoba. I would like to read a quote: the present rail line from Faulkner to Winnipeg is therefore the lifeline of our operations in Manitoba, and the question then becomes one of survivability of our Faulkner plant. We will be working closely with all levels of government.

I want to ask the Minister of Highways and this government: what efforts and support did he give in assisting Faulkner, the communities, Continental Lime in maintaining this line?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): As with other rail lines that have been proposed for abandonment, the province takes a position that we want to promote people to take over those lines as short lines where they are viable, economically viable operations. The department has facilitated and been involved in discussions involving the partners and the players to help them reach that decision whether they could or they wanted to take over the line to maintain it for the purpose the member has mentioned. I am sure the member is aware that, prior to any decision that the rail be abandoned, over 50 percent of the cargo from the mine, the rock haul, was travelling by road already on decisions made by the shipper. So the shipper, in the process of making its decision, decided to or not to enter a purchase option with CN.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Obviously, this government did not support the Continental Lime and the people. Given the fact that this line is already being torn up and with the increased truck traffic that we are going to have on our highways in the province, can the minister tell us what estimated costs will be to the province and the people of Manitoba to repair the deterioration of our highways?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I am sure the member should recognize that over the last 10 years there has been a continuous evolution of freight from rail to road, whether it is grain or rock or whatever it is. It has been going on. These are decisions made by the shippers, whether it is based on price or service reliability or other factors known only to them.

Madam Speaker, wherever possible we certainly encourage the operation of a rail line as a short line. If there has been any decision change, it has been by the federal government which brought in the Canada Transportation Act which facilitated an escalation of the degree of abandonment we have seen. There is no question about that, and as western provinces we lobbied in the hearing process that this was going to cost every province a considerable amount of money. This has been going on. At the same time, the federal government eliminated the Western Grain Transportation Act which again has pushed more freight from rail to road. It has not put any of the taxes it collects from the roads fuel tax into the roads of Canada, particularly western Canada.

Madam Speaker, the Western Grain Transportation transition fund, the federal government would not even spend it on the roads. So if you want to lay blame, it is at the doorstep of the federal government for their decisions and lack of support of roads in western Canada.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, ever since the privatization of CN and the introduction of the Transportation Act, railways have been moving full steam ahead to discontinue services in many parts of the country and the majority of them in Manitoba. As a result, the tremendous burden has been put on our roads and they are in terrible condition. Given that the federal government has appointed former Justice Estey to do a study of the grain transportation system, will this government take a position and urge the federal government to put a moratorium on all rail line abandonment until the Estey report is complete?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C. have met twice with Mr. Estey. This has been discussed. We have recommended to him that that be the case and hope that he can move that issue forward with the federal government. In addition, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province has written a letter to Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, advocating exactly that all abandonments at this point in time be put on hold until the Estey review is completed and the recommendations are known. That is the position of this government.

Ms. Wowchuk: Well, I am pleased that the Premier has written. We cannot wait for Estey to do it, because all the railways will be gone by the time his report is complete.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Since short-line railways are supposed to be the answer to all this rail line abandonment, will the government encourage CN to offer joint running rights to short-line railways or put together reasonable packages so that short-line railways can really operate rather than have what we have now from CN with bits and pieces of railway being put up for abandonment where no short-line railway can operate successfully?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, on several occasions we have advocated both principles that the member has recognized. We have advocated joint running rights in the CTA act review. We have advocated it through our discussions as four provinces with the federal minister in the course of the events that are unfolding. We have advocated that economic units be packaged for rail short-line operation, whether it was the northern rail lines that OmniTRAX bought, whether it was the four subdivisions in her backyard. We have advocated on more than one occasion that the economically viable unit be packaged so the short-line operation viability has an opportunity to survive. So we have been on that agenda.

Unfortunately, at this point in time, all efforts on behalf of us or other provinces have been denied either by the federal government or by the railways involved.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I would ask the minister then: what other efforts can be made? You know, he says we have done things. Rail lines are being abandoned. Roads are being deteriorated. Communities are dying because of this. You supported the privatization of this railway company. What are you going to do now to help these communities before they die?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I do not think the member and I have any dispute on what we would like to see happen, but let us face it, decisions were made in terms of act changes by the federal government unilaterally. Even though the four provinces of western Canada supported a different approach, they went ahead anyway for their own purposes, and they are just letting things unfold as they shall. You also see that elevator companies are closing a lot of elevators and building big ones. The railroads appear to think that all grain for export, for salt-water export will come to those lines one way or the other, and they are proceeding at what they think is the right game plan for themselves.

The provinces as a whole are lobbying against that, because we see an impact on our roads if short lines cannot be viable. Unfortunately, the federal government does not listen to us, either individually or collectively as four provinces.

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Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): In 1988, the Transcona-Springfield School Division Co-operative Education Off-Campus program began in co-operation with the federal government. Since that time, over 700 adults have been retrained with at least 90 percent of them being re-employed. This co-operative education program trained people in the fields of automotive technology, machine shop, cabinet woodworking, electrical, automated office technician and others. Some of these courses can cost up to $10,000 per student and are accredited by the provincial Apprenticeship branch.

Last year the federal government transferred responsibility for this program to the province along with funds. I want to ask the Minister of Education to explain why school divisions do not qualify as eligible training institutions under the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance Program, making students attending the off-campus program ineligible for student financial assistance.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I am delighted the member has asked the question because to date they have asked no questions on apprenticeship, which is a huge new change in Manitoba. A really good program is being brought in. The problem the member talks about is one that is currently under examination.

When the federal government withdrew all funding for apprenticeship, it stopped the direct purchase of seats for training for students. Instead, they are providing the money directly to the student as opposed to the training institution. Because the federal government has EI-eligible conditions, students who are EI eligible are not--they can apply for student aid if the cost of their training is more than the money the federal government gives. Unfortunately, what we are discovering is the money the federal government gives is always going to be less than the cost of the training. So, in order to accommodate those students who currently take training in the high school setting, we now have to re-examine the qualifications and criteria for student loan assistance which currently, under the agreement, is only for those attending post-secondary institutions.

This is currently being examined in terms of financial assistance for students who attend other than post-secondary institutions.

Mr. Reid: I have a number of letters of support from employers of this province for this particular program, Madam Speaker, very vital to the retraining of people looking for work.

I want to ask the Minister of Education to explain why students attending private vocational schools--some just certified by the province--are eligible for student financial assistance when students attending similar programs at public school facilities are not eligible for student financial assistance.

Mrs. McIntosh: Again, the member should understand that up until recently the federal government purchased direct seats for students--whatever institution they attended. Now, with their changes, the money goes directly to the students. The students will have to borrow some money then in some cases to top up the cost of their education.

The current wording is that student financial assistance is only for post-secondary education students, but indeed many of those students are taking, as the member correctly points out, some of their training in high schools. So we have to take a look then at the student assistance program and take a look at how we can accommodate those people who take training in high schools so that they, too, can receive full access to training wherever it may be, Madam Speaker, to pursue their training in Manitoba. The new model for apprenticeship that we have will open up all kinds of opportunities. This is one facet that we need a decision on in the very near future.

Mr. Reid: I would like to ask the Minister of Education, Madam Speaker, to explain to the employers who need skilled workers in this province, since it has been quite a number of months now--in fact, I think over a year since this province knew that the program was transferring from the federal government to the province--why they have not made a decision with respect to supporting students who attend off-campus programs in the public school system of Manitoba.

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, I wish that the member had taken advantage of the opportunity to attend and hear what the Apprenticeship Task Force, the new apprenticeship model has to say for Manitoba. The new apprenticeship program, which was announced on Friday, has universal approval from employers, from employees, from unions, from industry, from workforce, from colleges, from apprentices, who were widely consulted during the year and a half that the new changes are being put in place. Those changes will come into place at the end of next year, and those changes will see us being able to double the number of apprentices in Manitoba. It is a stated goal, and it is possible under the new system we are bringing in.

So the member seems to imply that we have run out of time. Not so, Madam Speaker. The plan is in place, and by the time that students are opted into the new plan, the final details will also be in place.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, with a new question.

Mr. Reid: With a new question. Madam Speaker, there are a number of employers in this province, for which we have letters here today, indicating that they support the off-campus program run by the school divisions in this province. In fact, they were looking for these types of skills for their particular business operations. Time is of the essence here. It is my understanding that this off-campus program run by the Transcona-Springfield School Division is going to expire. That program is going to end at the end of this school year, leaving those facilities unused during the weekends and the off-school hours in the summer months, underutilized when the taxpayers of this province have paid for this equipment. The employers want the workers. The people want to be retrained, and the program is going to die if you do not take steps to protect it.

What are you going to do?

Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, I am fully aware of the great degree of support that employers and employees have for our new apprenticeship model because they were involved in the consultations, in the discussions and in the final decision. They were present at our announcement to indicate their very strong support for the new model.

The situation that the member describes has to do with the situation in terms of EI eligibility and the new EI laws.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Finance. The minister will know that the federal government has released its 12-month revenue and expenditure statements at the end of last week, and they showed the federal government's taxation revenues from income tax, both corporate and personal, to have risen an astounding 12.7 percent in the 12 months.

Will the minister confirm that his own tax revenues are likely of a similar order of magnitude and that he has continued to understate his revenues to the people of Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): No, Madam Speaker, I will confirm no such thing. The member for Crescentwood knows the process, that we are updated periodically from the federal government in terms of the revised estimates of our taxation revenues. They are numbers that are provided by the federal government, and we will be receiving our next update shortly.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, this minister has refused to tell the people of Manitoba the true revenue picture for several years now. He is hiding revenue in order to build it into a pre-election slush fund.

Will he explain to the people of Manitoba why it is that the Government of Canada knows what its tax revenues are to the end of March 1998 but he claims he does not know what his revenues are? Why will he not tell people what the revenues have actually been?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood is wrong. He knows the process in terms of taxation numbers being provided by the federal government. If he looks at our revenue growth, in terms of our own source revenues, we are projecting very reasonable growth here in Manitoba for obvious reasons, because our economy today is doing amongst the best in Canada.

But when it comes to personal income tax, when it comes to corporate income tax, those numbers are provided by the federal government. If he talks about governments exceeding their targets, I think the federal government, for 1997-98, was projecting a $17-billion deficit, and it appears as though they are more or less going to balance their budget. So, in terms of additional revenues for governments, all he need do is look all across Canada at provincial governments of all political stripes and he will find, because of Canada's economy doing well, most provincial government revenues are doing better. Certainly, in Manitoba, because of the strength of our economy, our revenues are performing very well.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

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