Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to.
Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.
This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, unanimous consent had been granted to skip to line 23.3. Industry Support Programs (a) Mineral Exploration Assistance Program. The honourable Minister of Energy and Mines had 25 minutes remaining in this debate of the motion moved by the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). We ask the honourable minister to please proceed.
Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Continuing my discussion on the use of the Mining Community Reserve Funds for the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program, I wanted to put on the record that Section 44(3)(a) of The Mining Tax Act states as follows: in addition to all or any monies authorized to be expended under any other act of the Legislature, the Lieutenant Governor in Council, in his absolute discretion, may direct the expenditure from the Mining Community Reserve of such sums as he may specify for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension or the closing down of mining operations attributable to the depletion of ore deposits.
It is the position of my government that one of the best ways to sustain a mining community is to discover new ore deposits which will sustain the employment of persons residing in a mining community. How are new ore deposits discovered? Through exploration. My government believes in taking a proactive approach to support this needed exploration, discovery and continued employment rather than wait until a mine closes before initiating any action.
This government's vision of the Mining Community Reserve is to provide for the development and maintenance of economically healthy mining communities. This is achieved in two ways. The first is through maintaining the Mining Community Reserve to provide for communities in times of need; the second way is to take a proactive approach during times of development to help avert times of need. For this reason we have the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program which has as its objective: to increase exploration and stimulate activities that can lead to the development of new mines by providing financial assistance to companies/individuals conducting exploration in Manitoba.
We are also supporting through the Mining Community Reserve other community focused projects such as the recent funding support approved for an economic development officer for the LGD of Lynn Lake. In addition, my staff are presently examining a proposal for infrastructure support for the community of Bissett.
The honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) is opposed to the transfer of funds from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue to help offset the incremental expenditure costs associated with MEAP. If we had taken her approach, the annual allocation for MEAP would have remained at $1 million per year instead of the $3 million per year that we have presently allocated to the program. The result would have been fewer companies actively exploring in Manitoba and considerably less being spent by explorationists in the province in an effort to discover new ore bodies.
I would like to take a moment to demonstrate how the Mining Community Reserve has been used specifically through MEAP to directly impact the four traditional mining districts of Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Lynn Lake-Leaf Rapids, Thompson nickel belt and southeastern Manitoba. In 1996-97 fiscal year, we transferred $1.3 million from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue. In that same fiscal year, the total MEAP assistance dollars in support of the four traditional mining districts was approximately $2.1 million. For the '97-98 fiscal year, we are projecting to transfer an additional $1.3 million from the Mining Community Reserve to general revenue. In that same fiscal year, the total MEAP assistance dollars in support of the four traditional mining districts was approximately $1.8 million. For 1998-99, we expect this trend to continue in those areas. This demonstrates that the four traditional mining districts receive funding in excess of the total transfer from the Mining Community Reserve in support of MEAP.
Yesterday the question was raised about the success of MEAP. An evaluation of MEAP indicates that the program has been successful in increasing exploration activity in Manitoba and the number of new companies to the province. As well, the majority of funds paid out through MEAP have been directed back into more exploration by the companies, further enhancing chances of discovering new economical ore bodies. The program may not be the sole reason why companies select Manitoba to conduct exploration, but it is an important component in that decision-making process.
In considering the economic impact of MEAP, the government funds invested as seed money have generated an incredible return from the industry. This industry investment has in turn leveraged significant spin-off business further contributing to the economy of Manitoba. Furthermore, the exploration industry itself has indicated support for incentive programs reflecting government's commitment to the industry. This commitment also demonstrates government's willingness to take some of the risk in the continued development of Manitoba's second-largest resource industry.
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Specifically, here is what industry had to say through a MEAP industry survey: 95 percent of MEAP participants are satisfied with the program and would like to see it continued; 73 percent reinvest assistance funds back into exploration projects in Manitoba; 58 percent said MEAP was an important factor in attracting their company to Manitoba; 24 percent said they would not have conducted work without MEAP assistance; and 12 percent were unsure of their ability to conduct work without MEAP.
An economic impact assessment was conducted for all projects completed in 1995-96, and 1996-97. The following are some of the highlights of this assessment: $2.9 million of assistance attracted $13.9 million in exploration expenditures or, for every one dollar of assistance, $4.76 was spent by industry. Of the total industry expenditures, $11 million was spent directly in Manitoba. The $11 million of direct expenditures leveraged another $10.1 million in spin-off of business expenditures for a gross expenditure in Manitoba of $21.1 million.
Every dollar in assistance represents $7.19 in gross expenditures. Total incremental tax revenue collected in Manitoba is estimated at $2.5 million, including federal, provincial, and local taxes. A total of 160 person years of direct and indirect employment was created.
Our own departmental statistics have also shed some light on the successes of MEAP. Since inception of MEAP in 1995, the number of companies operating in Manitoba has been on the rise. In 1995, 45 companies are operating; 1996, 58 companies are operating, of which 23 were new; 1997, 61 companies are operating, of which 18 were new; 1998 to date, 71 companies are operating, of which 13 are new. Since 1995, 54 new companies have committed to exploration in the province.
At previous sessions, the question of accountability of that program was raised. To ensure accountability in the program, the following steps are undertaken: 100 percent review of all applications by qualified geologists from Mines and Geological Service's branches; inspections of projects in progress, based on 30 percent of approved assistance funds by qualified field geologists; 100 percent review of all companies' applications for payment, including all invoices and receipts, are reviewed by MEAP co-ordinator; 100 percent review of all work conducted through companies' final project report by assessment geologists; company office audits of 20 percent of the paid assistance dollars by internal government auditors. These steps designed to ensure accountability and integrity of the program were developed in concert with and approved by our internal auditors.
MEAP has proved to be a successful program. Funding of the mining community reserve is being maintained at a level that will address the Manitoba mining community needs in both the short and the long term. Consequently, Mr. Chair, I would ask that the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) consider withdrawing the motion or voting against her own motion, which now that she is aware of the facts and aware of the benefits of MEAP and the relevance and direct benefit to communities in Manitoba and mining in general and all taxpayers of the province, will now either, as I say, withdraw the motion or vote against her own motion.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Well, I thank the minister for his comments and will be supporting my motion, and my motion was directed at the use of the Mining Reserve Fund for funding MEAP. The minister knows that we have discussed accountability issues and the effectiveness of MEAP, but I have in general been quite supportive of MEAP, and I have said on several occasions that I believe it should come out of general revenue, but I do not support the accounting procedure of moving it out of the Mining Reserve Fund, then into general revenue, and then into MEAP.
I believe the money is really needed in the Mining Reserve Fund, and I am prepared to move on off of this line after the vote.
Mr. Chairperson: Is the committee ready for the question?
The question is as follows: that this committee condemn this minister and the provincial government for transferring $6 million out of the Mining Reserve Fund to general revenues instead of directing the funds to the needs of the miners, their families and the businesses in their mining communities.
Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea.
Some Honourable Members: Yea.
Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed to the motion, please say nay.
Some Honourable Members: Nay.
Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have it. I declare the motion defeated.
Ms. Mihychuk: I move for consensus to move back into line 23.2.(c) Mines. There are several more questions I would like to complete in that area before we move on to Geological Services.
Mr. Chairperson: For the benefit of the committee, we do not need consensus or unanimous consent to move back from the previous line. We just need unanimous consent to move--
An Honourable Member: To get out of it.
Mr. Chairperson: To get out of it. So if the honourable member would like to revert to section 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (c) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,370,900.
Ms. Mihychuk: There are several areas that I would like to ask some questions on, and they include some questions on the inspection process that we have in effect, and I might as well start in that area, I guess. Can the minister tell us how many claims inspectors we have now in the department?
Mr. Newman: One.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is that a traditional or a historic average? Let us say, 10 years ago how many claims inspectors did the department have?
Mr. Newman: Two.
Ms. Mihychuk: Does the minister believe that this one individual is sufficient to do the necessary claims inspections for the whole province?
Mr. Newman: It is working adequately at this time.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Is the claims inspector that the department has based in Flin Flon or The Pas? Sorry, I think it is The Pas.
Mr. Newman: Based in The Pas.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many claims we have in Manitoba, and how many visits the claims inspector has made to the various regions in Manitoba? I know that we have some claims in southeast Manitoba, for example, and it is quite a long distance to go all the way from The Pas down to the Lake of the Woods area.
Mr. Newman: My staff does not have those numbers with them. We can undertake to give you those numbers if you wish, but we do not have them handy today.
Ms. Mihychuk: Has the support budget for the claims inspector been increased now that that one individual is required to cover the whole province?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister provide that information as to what his supports were previously when there were two inspectors versus now when he has total responsibility?
Mr. Newman: We will provide you with that information. They do not have that readily available.
Ms. Mihychuk: Did the minister indicate that we did not have the information as to the number of claims that are active in Manitoba at this time?
Mr. Newman: That was my answer. The figures I gave you yesterday were the registered claims, the newly recorded claims for the year. You provided some figures which I assumed were figures that represented the total active claims in Manitoba, but I have not had those validated.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate if it is the goal of the inspection program to do a visit on each new claim and then what percentage of old claims, or is there a standard policy for this type of inspection?
Mr. Newman: All claims are not inspected. Those with anticipated or known problems are investigated, and there is a random investigation as well.
Ms. Mihychuk: I thank the minister, and I hope the report will indicate the number of visits of new claims and past or traditional or continuing claims, and that should satisfy my inquiries.
In terms of inspections for pits and quarries, it is my understanding that there are four inspectors and that these inspectors do basically two jobs, the supervision or the maintenance of the rehabilitation program as well as inspections. Is that correct?
Mr. Newman: That is correct.
Ms. Mihychuk: Traditionally or historically, the department, I believe, employed three geologists or three inspectors who worked full time doing pit and quarry inspections. Is that correct?
Mr. Newman: That is correct.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate--I guess what I am trying to get at is that the rehabilitation program is a new project that started two or three years ago, I think, and involves the rehabilitation of pits and quarries, somewhat labour intensive perhaps. I am wondering if we have had to sacrifice on the number of inspections we are making because there are additional responsibilities now for the rehabilitation program.
Mr. Newman: The pits and quarries rehabilitation initiative began in 1993. Initially, there were three pits and quarry inspectors of the rehabilitation, and then over more recent years there have been four. Once again the opinion of my director is that the way the work is organized their numbers are adequate to do a satisfactory job.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of pits and quarries that are active? By this, I mean there are those that are actively being mined and have some sort of disposition or a quarry lease or a permit, and then there are hundreds of pits and quarries in our rural areas that are available for further mining. So have we got an indication of the number of active pits and those that are available for additional extraction?
Mr. Newman: The evaluation that has been done by the department is that there are approximately 6,000 pits in the province of which approximately 1,000 operate at any given time, and that includes private and Crown.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us the aggregate reserves in a 60-mile radius of Winnipeg and the length of time that we have supply for the city of Winnipeg?
Mr. Newman: Are you sure you do not want it within 30 miles of Winnipeg or 61 miles? You want it 60 miles, within 60 miles.
Ms. Mihychuk: I am flexible. It could be 100 kilometres.
Mr. Newman: I am a little facetious in that I guess I have difficulty understanding whether or not having that sort of finite evaluation of reserves within that area would be readily available, but is there some magic to the sixty-mile--
Ms. Mihychuk: No.
Mr. Newman: No. Okay, within range of Winnipeg sort of thing.
Ms. Mihychuk: Sure.
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Mr. Newman: We are both being given the comfort by my staff that, based on their best judgment, there is adequate known supply for the needs of the Winnipeg area, and we are talking about--I have used the expression within one hour, sort of, driving distance of Winnipeg for the next approximately 20 years.
Ms. Mihychuk: It is a concern to many rural municipalities, and I mentioned this in my own opening statements, as well as to the people of Winnipeg that a reasonable source be fairly close, managed properly and available for the future.
The reeve or the mayor of a southern municipality, I believe around Winkler, Morden, indicated to me at the Morris Stampede that they were facing a real crisis in terms of supply to maintain the road system which is now their responsibility and, in fact, had sent a letter to the government saying that they could not under their present financial circumstances maintain the roads because in their case, there is no aggregate down there that is of sufficient quality. It is very high in shale and the resources are just not available in southern Manitoba, that they actually import it from the States and that it was extremely expensive, and they wanted to turn over the whole maintenance of the road system to somebody else because it was going to bankrupt their municipality.
Is the minister aware of this type of crisis out there in rural Manitoba, particularly, I would say, from Winnipeg south, probably south of Portage la Prairie, where quality reserves have been depleted?
Mr. Newman: I would invite you to have that individual, or through you, share all the details of that with myself and my staff, and we will take a look at that. We do not have knowledge of that specific situation and would be very pleased to take a look at it and respond.
Ms. Mihychuk: The other area that is of particular interest is the huge supply of material that we have in Birds Hill, and there was recent alarm when the parks, Natural Resources, went around and they were looking at protected areas, and some concern was raised, well, the government will go into Birds Hill and mine it, and there was a clause at that time indicating that, no, that was not the intention of the government to open large gravel pits in Birds Hill. Obviously, it is very close to Seddons Corner or I mean to the area of gravel extraction south of Birds Hill, and Birds Hill itself is actually a gravel deposit. Has there been an estimate made of the value of Birds Hill in terms of an aggregate supply?
Mr. Newman: No.
Ms. Mihychuk: There is, I think, right now the concern about having to look at that as a potential has been put on hold, but I am concerned about the reserves in terms of feeding Winnipeg's needs and what looks like Manitoba's crisis in terms of road infrastructure.
We have seen lately several stories in the paper talking about the need to invest in our roadway system. There has been rail line abandonment which means that there is more and more use of our municipal and provincial highways which means, of course, municipalities have to grade more and provide more material to maintain those roads. So from what was a federal jurisdiction, we have now moved it onto the province and ultimately on local municipalities, and the need to have significant good quality aggregate is going to become, in my opinion, even more critical to those municipalities as they look to maintaining roads which are going to be used to even a greater degree than they have in the past. We have seen some municipalities looking at closing some roads because they cannot maintain their full network.
So this is an issue I think that we should anticipate as a government, as a province, that we need to establish fairly good monitoring of the reserves available and ensure that they are there for the future and that if we are going to look at doubling our expenditures in Highways, that is going to have a significant impact, for instance, on reserves available and the cost of those reserves.
So I look to the minister to look for some planning in terms of our aggregate resources in the Capital Region and ensure that those municipalities that are in a desperate situation will have the ability to have quality material at a reasonable price. This is something, I think, that will become more and more critical as we move on towards the new transportation reality for our farmers and our rural area.
Mr. Newman: Given your background having worked in the department and particularly in this area, I can appreciate the quality of the questions you are asking here, and maybe for the benefit of whoever will read this record, I can expand on some of the kind of detail and at the same time respond to your question.
In the aggregate inventory program, there are, of course, priorities that are established by the department. One of the near-term priorities under this heading for the next three, that is '99 and 2000 through 2001, 2002, the near-term priorities include a completing and updating of the aggregate resources maps for the Capital Region area including the R.M.s of Tache and St. Clements, updating of aggregate resource assessments for major urban areas including supply-demand forecasting and a digital compilation of the aggregate database.
Your question, which I believe was in relation to Morris, in a broader context and to put that in a context, many parts of southern Manitoba are aggregate poor which does require municipalities and highways to bear the burden of high transportation costs in many areas, and no amount of additional mapping will change the fact of the natural resources in particular areas of the province. Examples are that Portage la Prairie imports gravel from the Interlake and Brandon areas because there are no local sources of high quality aggregate. I say that for the benefit of the honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) who is here.
Grunthal is a major supplier, on the other hand, of aggregate to aggregate-poor R.M.s on the clay plane south of Winnipeg. In several places in western and southwestern Manitoba, we export aggregate to communities in Saskatchewan. So we have to put each individual situation in its appropriate context and also in that broader province-wide kind of context.
We do foresee the need and desirability of conducting a broad regional assessment of aggregate supply and demand across southern Manitoba, so that those areas rich in these resources can effectively plan not only for their needs but for the needs of their neighbours. That is the kind of process which may be of some benefit to Morris and certainly would be for Morden and Miami as well. When you pose the specifics of your situation, the response will serve not only that immediate community but any other municipalities, and we will make that known to the appropriate municipal association in its perhaps newly emerged form.
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Ms. Mihychuk: There seems to have been in the last couple of Estimates the perception that perhaps Manitoba's aggregate resources had been fully defined. I would, I guess, challenge that concept. Our aggregate reserves are formed in a geological process. Some of them are buried under Lake Agassiz clays. I remember specifically an example in Ontario where they have an intense need for aggregate in the Toronto-southern Ontario area, where a geologist was able to discover a fairly significant deposit under a fairly shallow clay cover. This was very recent, in the last probably 10 years, worth maybe a considerable sum, millions.
So that potential is also there in Manitoba. It is one of those Voiseys. If you could find something under the Lake Agassiz clays that was available for those southern municipalities, you are talking significant deposit in Manitoba.
So I guess to ensure that the minister understands, that although it may not be as glamorous as diamonds and gold, it is very valuable, and the same geological processes follow through. Just as we have geologists who are exploring for base metals, there are geologists exploring for aggregates, and the department used to have a fairly significant group of individuals--I do not remember the peak, maybe five or seven--who were out there doing that type of exploration. I would urge the minister to perhaps give that some reflection, as we have now moved away from that sector I would say almost completely.
So there is still potential to find new deposits. The challenge is greater because they are not sitting at surface, or they are not going to be right there beside the highway, but that does not mean that that type of effort should not be put forth, in my opinion, that we do need to diversify our inventories in terms of metals, base metals and precious metals.
That is very important, but it is also important to have people working on industrial minerals and in aggregate sectors and in the peat industry, that we have seen dramatic success in those various sectors. So I just urge the minister to remember that the door on new deposits in terms of pits and quarries should not be closed. Manitoba has the potential. I think there is a certain onus on behalf of government given that you do actively explore in other sectors in the minerals field to do some of that work in aggregate as well.
Mr. Newman: I congratulate you for these constructive suggestions. I treat what you have said as being unequivocally supportive of the industrial minerals initiative that I have asked my department to put into place, and this is definitely a part of it. Again, the approach that the official opposition might take in theory to this kind of issue, which is to hire more civil servants, is not necessarily the approach that our government sees to the solution. To the extent that we can induce the private sector to do that job, with our encouragement, we expect to get positive results, but your comments are certainly appreciated and are very relevant.
Ms. Mihychuk: Just a couple of more questions on the rehabilitation fund. This was established--and I thank the minister for the clarification--in 1993. Can the minister indicate what the balance is of that fund now?
Mr. Newman: The March 31, 1998, balance is $5,356,812.
Ms. Mihychuk: What do we expect to expend of that fund on rehabilitation in the upcoming year?
Mr. Newman: I will give you the historic expenditures. The amount collected in the beginning of this initiative for '92-93 was $987,148. That has accumulated at over $1 million a year, so the total amount collected was $8,212,338. Of that, $2,855,525 was expended in annual amounts of '93-94, $490,000 and change; 1994-95, $696,000; 1995-96, $537,000; 1996-97, $501,000; 1997-98, $629,000. So what will be spent in '98-99?
I spoke to the heavy construction industry and to my staff, and I really challenged them to get to work and see if a more aggressive approach can be taken to it. It is challenging the industry as much as anybody else and making sure that we do not impede them through our scrutiny of applications in moving ahead. The result of that is that the hope and, indeed, a goal of our department--and bear in mind it is not within our control. Our hope and goal is to have $750,000, $800,000 expended out of the fund for that purpose.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Well, on an annual basis, I get letters of concern from the industry, and I would suspect that it is probably the same company, but the issues that the company raises, I think, deserve some merit and some question. So I am going to ask on behalf of this gravel contractor some of his--or there could be a woman, you never know. I think there is one female operator in the business, so that needs to improve as well, but anyway, I divert. The questions raised are related to the rehabilitation account and the cleanup, and they expressed concern that it is not being expended at the same rate as it is being collected.
But I think of even more significant concern is, and I want to quote: As a contractor in this industry, I personally know there were a lot of accidents in gravel pits and quarries this year as compared to previous years. It is my understanding that the mines inspectors for the department have as a priority the pit rehabilitation and not the safety inspections, and, further, some pits are safety inspected by the Department of Labour, and some are inspected by Energy and Mines. This is confusing for the pit owner who moves around the province to work.
As an employer and a worker, I do not object to safety inspections if it may prevent injuries at the worksite, but the priority should be to conduct safety inspections and not clean up gravel pits. The safety inspection should be done by one department only.
So I look to the minister to respond to the concern that this gravel contractor has expressed in his letter dated January 27, 1998.
Mr. Newman: I do not recall ever receiving that letter. I have asked my department responsible or the staff responsible in that area, and they do not have any knowledge of that letter. I take it the letter is an anonymous letter--
Ms. Mihychuk: I can share it with you.
Mr. Newman: Yes, and I would appreciate that is their return address on it there?
Ms. Mihychuk: If I did I would have contacted them.
Mr. Newman: Okay, so we have an anonymous letter that has no return address. But whether that is so or not, if the points are relevant and helpful, and I believe they are--I mean, if what is said there is true, it seems to me to be a reason to consider an integrated approach for inspections between departments. We have done that in many other situations, so the very fact that this has been raised--my deputy is here and assistant deputy Minister of Mines and I am sure their ears perked up just like mine did--I do not have to tell them that I am interested in having what is suggested there reviewed. I will want some advice as to what could be done to address that, what appears to be a potential inefficiency and a potential duplication and a potential confusion to the customers in the gravel business. Whatever the source, it is something that is worthy of consideration and thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Ms. Mihychuk: For the minister and the department's information, I have given the letter to the clerk who will be making copies for your perusal, but, unfortunately, the person did not identify themselves. I appreciate the minister's comments that they will review the situation and ensure that those concerns are addressed.
I would like to ask a couple of questions on the Prospectors Program, and I understand that grants are given to prospectors and that this is a fairly new program. Can the minister outline what the program involves?
Mr. Newman: In 1992, Energy and Mines introduced the Manitoba Prospectors Assistance Program which is an incentive program directed towards self-employed prospectors and designed to boost mineral exploration in Manitoba. The program was considered necessary in light of the alarming decrease in exploration across Canada and Manitoba, particularly since 1990 when the federally funded flow-through share financing program for junior exploration companies was discontinued.
It is a funding program and to qualify for the funding, an applicant must hold a Manitoba prospecting licence, be experienced and self-employed, have a prospecting project within Manitoba on mining claims held by the applicant, or on open Crown mineral land, and have a prospecting target. Qualified applicants may receive up to 50 percent of expenditures incurred to a maximum assistance level of $7,500 per year. The 1998-99 funds made available is $125,000 in total.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what is required to receive a Manitoba licence as a prospector?
Mr. Newman: Apply and pay $10.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the criteria is not too tough, I do not think. Has consideration been given to requiring some sort of training in terms of prospecting?
Mr. Newman: The other criteria are experienced, self-employed. If you are wondering whether or not for general purposes there should be some training prerequisite to obtaining a licence to prospect, no thought has been given to that, no research, no effort, no requests for that. If you are making a request, please stipulate that and then a request has been made, and we will have to consider it, but you will have been the first to have ever done that, that we know.
Ms. Mihychuk: Have any of the prospectors that receive this grant work for companies that are also receiving MEAPs?
Mr. Newman: My department staff are not aware of any such situation. Maybe you could elaborate more and give us a hypothetical situation, and then we could focus our attention on it.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I know that many companies, mining companies, exploration companies will hire local individuals who have some experience in prospecting. They can recognize boulders that have some mineralization. I remember that in Newfoundland, if you found a boulder of a certain size, you got paid X number of dollars, so you would get a direct payment. So people were scrambling around, and they would throw these boulders in the back of pickup trucks because, of course, you would never want to leave it there where it was. That is part of business and those companies want to know where that information, where that boulder was found, but they do not want anyone else to know about it.
So there are all types of exploration that goes on and prospecting is one of those areas where regular, local people can be involved. Many of them are out there doing their bit and trying to find something significant, and they can be and often are hired by mining companies to do a little bit of exploration for them. So I think that it would be quite possible to have a company out there working and having local prospectors doing some work for them.
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Mr. Newman: I have no doubt about that, but in terms of the project which is funded through the applicant for prospectors' assistance, the dollars are being paid in relation to the prospecting project which is described in the application, so if in addition to that project, funded up to 50 percent of expenditures to a maximum of $7,500 per year, you are simply examining or speculating about the possibility of that individual entrepreneur supplementing that relatively modest income by some other contractual arrangement with a mining company like HBM&S or Inco. Certainly that is possible in relation to another project.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate how many prospectors, licensed prospectors, are of aboriginal descent?
Mr. David Faurschou, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Newman: We do not keep those statistics. There is nothing in the application form that shows what your ethnic, national, religious background, ancestry is, so we do not have those statistics. We certainly do know just by observation and knowledge of individual human beings who are prospectors that there are definitely aboriginals who are prospectors who have licences in Manitoba, but we do not have a record of that for any group classified in those sorts of ways.
Ms. Mihychuk: This seems to me to be an area where we could do some proactive work with First Nations in terms of informing them of the program, providing some, perhaps, collaboration, if there was that will, with First Nations peoples in terms of training. Some training in prospecting may be useful, especially for people who are not familiar with geology at all. Since the requirements are quite minimal, this may be an opportunity for First Nations to explore and to be informed.
Can the minister indicate what has happened in terms of informing First Nations communities of this program and how to become involved and eligible, et cetera, in the past year, or are there plans in the future?
Mr. Newman: Once again, I think you have made a very constructive suggestion that is a very affordable kind of participation, the first step getting your licence. There have been prospector training programs in the past even in First Nations communities, Split Lake, Nelson House, and it has been done on a response-to-request basis for the most part.
The ninth point of our mining strategy which we discussed previously dealing with aboriginal involvement and better understanding in mining and exploration, my staff, having workshops coming up imminently, will be making sure that this particular aspect of involvement of aboriginal people will be discussed, and we will use any forum where there is interaction with aboriginal people through our Energy and Mines department to expose them to the opportunities and encourage their involvement in careers and entrepreneurial opportunities in mining and encourage them to get the best training and experience available.
Ms. Mihychuk: The availability or the training of people into prospecting is I think a worthwhile endeavour, and I am glad that the minister will look into that. The First Nations are a sector that I think should be informed, as well as perhaps in our mining communities where we are facing difficulties, as we have talked about before. If people can go out and do some of this exploration on their own, then perhaps that will assist not only themselves but those mining communities in finding those reserves which are so important to keeping the mining communities alive and well. So I am pleased that the minister is responsive and going to investigate.
In the area of the Mines Branch, one of the other things that I noticed in terms of the Activity Identification, which is in our Estimates, is the compiling of inventory of aggregate resources in the province. It was my understanding that this jurisdiction has actually been moved to Geological Services. Is that correct?
Mr. Newman: Yes.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Perhaps next year that could be removed from this Estimates. I think it was probably just an oversight, but that has been moved over, and are there intentions to have the individual who deals with land use management which deals with conflicts of resource utilization and who worked very closely with the aggregate geologist to be moved as well, or is the intention to have that individual remain with the Mines Branch?
Mr. Newman: That individual will remain with the Mines Branch.
Ms. Mihychuk: Under the area of Expected Results, the Mines Branch indicates the successful completion of projects and the publishing of maps and reports. Can we have an indication of what types of maps and reports have been published from the Mines Branch?
Mr. Newman: The digitization of claims maps is to be completed in November of 1998, and the digitization of assessment reports, which will eventually go onto the Internet.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate the number of employees or workers in the mining sector? Those statistics, are they maintained by the Mines Branch?
Mr. Newman: The figure that we have used as the rough figure for employees directly involved in the mining industry in Manitoba is 3,000. More specific data that I had readily available was the reported employment levels of the companies with operating mines in the province, and that figure is just over 2,000. Then, in addition to those 2,000 directly in those mining companies, there are the companies without active mines; there are the self-employed prospector types. It does not include the mining supply companies. So the figure that we use that came from the Mining Association of Manitoba to describe those directly employed in mining is approximately 3,000.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister provide us with a historical perspective? Has there been a decrease in the number of workers? I know very recently we have seen layoffs at Inco. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) was indicating that there was that type of job reductions in Thompson, and we know that there were job losses because of the closure in Bissett. But I am wondering in terms of a historical record for the past five years, have we seen significant changes in the employment numbers for individuals working directly in the mining sector, and are those numbers available?
Mr. Newman: The numbers have declined for a variety of reasons, which include everything from mine closings to technological developments to whatever rationalizations companies have, from a figure of what was, again, an approximate figure like the 3,000 that was used in general discussions, to 4,300 over the last five years or so.
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Ms. Mihychuk: It is a little shocking, actually, the actual number of workers in the mining field. I have a report from the Mining Association. I have not had an opportunity to check what their numbers are, but I guess I am a little bit surprised. This is March 21--I have just located it--March 21, 1996, and the Mining Association indicates that mining employs 4,600 people directly and another 13,800 indirectly.
So perhaps we need to be cautious about using their numbers, because this was as of 1996, and I believe that I have seen in press releases from the department, from the minister, numbers indicating approximately 4,300 employed in the mining sector. So perhaps we need to ascertain where the actual numbers are coming from.
I mean, it is very important to understand how many people are working in the mining sector if we have gone down from 4,600, 4,300 since 1995 to 2,000. Are those comparable numbers? Has there really been the loss of almost 50 percent of jobs in the mining sector in the last three or four years, or is it a difference in the source of the numbers that is perhaps causing such a dramatic difference?
So I look to the minister to perhaps provide some insight as to the disparity in the numbers that have been recently reported and now what we learn is actually closer to 2,000 people working in the mining industry in Manitoba, which is, if I am not mistaken, perhaps the lowest level of employment in the mining industry in Manitoba ever. Perhaps the minister has some insight as to this discrepancy in the numbers, and what is the situation for mining in Manitoba? How many workers are employed in the mining sector?
Mr. Newman: We have, of course, placed reliance on the figures that come out of the association representing the mining industry. We do not have a right to ask these private companies to give us regular reports on what their employment levels are or indeed what they are going to be or even what they have been. So it is an indicator of the contribution mining does make to the province. So we find it of some value to have that kind of information. It also indicates, to a certain extent, the state of health of the industry, but other than seeking the co-operation of the Mining Association and the co-operation of individual companies to provide us with that information as they see fit, I am not sure that we can or should do much more than we do in terms of getting the information.
But your questioning certainly has caused me to ask my department to at least get an historic record of what the Mining Association numbers are by going through their annual reports. I think it has, as I say, given the lack of perfection of the information, it still is useful to review it as an indicator. That will be done, and we will share that information with you when it is done.
Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister use the information available through StatsCan as well, so that we can provide a comparison as to the numbers provided by the Mining Association and those reported by StatsCan? There may be a dichotomy there or there may be a difference because of the reporting structure. I would be very interested to understand the numbers because they do have a significant impact on how we view mining and mining health in Manitoba.
Mr. Newman: I will share that information with you when I get it, and I am hereby requesting that information be provided to me for the same period. We seek that information from the Mining Association of Manitoba.
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Ms. Mihychuk: One last area of interest that I am going to explore in this year's Estimates is the Aboriginal Mining Accord. I look to that with some optimism. This is the first specific initiative that I have seen that deals with the aboriginal community. I hope that this will be a significant move, progress in terms of reaching out to First Nations.
I would ask the minister to provide some detail as to what the Aboriginal Mining Accord will be doing. I see a line item of $40,000 put towards that project. Perhaps there can be an indication of the number of staff that are going to be working in this sector, what initiatives we are going to undertake and what results we hope to accomplish.
Mr. Newman: Let me deal with the general, departmentally described approach, background, present status and suggested strategy, and then I will get into a little more detail.
The need for a strategy dealing with the relationship between mining companies operating in Canada and the aboriginal people has been evident. As Canada and the aboriginal community resolve the issues of land claims and move towards self-government for the aboriginal people, the need for an economic base for the aboriginal communities becomes paramount. There is little doubt that mining is the most likely industry to provide such a base. In the past, the aboriginal community has received little benefit from mining, other than some employment opportunities, and mining was not permitted on reserve lands.
With the advent of self-government, however, this will change. Mining will be possible on land owned by the aboriginal people, should they wish to allow it. Aboriginal groups will be able to invest directly in exploration, and mining will also be able to benefit from a variety of spin-off business opportunities.
At the present time, there is a need to work on developing a better relationship between the aboriginal community and the mining industry. If a common understanding of each party's needs can be achieved, there is every reason to believe that a relationship can be established that is of benefit to all. There is also a need to have an enhanced understanding of the values and traditions and cultural sensitivities of both, each for the other.
The suggested strategy is: it is proposed that Manitoba's aboriginal mining strategy be initiated by means of a ministerial letter to the appropriate aboriginal groups and the Mining Association of Manitoba. The letter would outline briefly the background and the government's desire to facilitate a dialogue between the two parties resulting in a form of accord or quoted best practice. This accord would outline the type of activities that a mining company would be expected to undertake when contemplating the establishment of a mine near an aboriginal community, and also when engaging in explorationist activities.
The letter that I did sign pursuant to that strategy went to the AMC, MKO, NACC, and the MMF, the Mining Association of Manitoba, and the Prospectors and Developers Association. The letter has not gone yet. I have approved the letter, but it has not gone yet. It will constitute an invitation to an initial workshop at the end of this month, at the end of the month of May, to begin the process of developing greater understanding of needs and aspirations, and to begin work on the development of the accord.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is it possible to get a copy of the letter? As Mines critic, I would be very interested in this project and would appreciate if I could get a copy of that.
Mr. Newman: You will definitely be given a copy of the letter, concurrently with its going out to the organizations that I have named.
Ms. Mihychuk: Where is the workshop going to take place?
Mr. Newman: Winnipeg.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister explain why the workshop will be in Winnipeg when most First Nations involved in mining, in the mining sector are in the North?
Mr. Newman: The desire is to attract, at the initial stages at least, the leaders of the organizations in question, and all their offices--AMC, MMF, NACC--are in Winnipeg, and so are the two mining organizations.
Ms. Mihychuk: This workshop is going to be here in Winnipeg, I understand, and leaders have been invited. Do we have an estimate of the number of individuals we are inviting to this workshop?
Mr. Newman: In addition to resource staff and a facilitator, 14 people will be invited. Two of them representing each of those organizations, with the exception of the Prospectors and Developers Association; because there are two associations, there will be four representing those two associations--for a total of 14. So two from AMC, two from MKO, two from NACC, two from MMF, two from the Mining Association of Manitoba, and four from the two Prospectors and Developers Association groups.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is it anticipated that there are going to be more workshops? I look for a broader strategy. You have $40,000 allocated. You are only having one meeting with maybe, what, 30 people. I would seriously hope this is not what we are calling the Aboriginal Mining Accord, that there has to be greater vision than that. I look for clarification from the minister.
Mr. Newman: We are talking about the initial meeting. Growing out of that will be a series of workshops at locations and in circumstances, and involving those people that the initial meeting will determine as an appropriate inclusive process that will be effective.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate who the facilitator will be?
Mr. Newman: A candidate has been approached and has not yet committed to terms.
Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister intending to be there at this workshop?
Mr. Newman: In this kind of event, in no way do I ever want to interfere with the process or impose myself on the process, but I always make myself available, when I do not have prioritized competing obligations, to contribute to a process like this when asked by the people that are paid to successfully facilitate these kinds of processes. But I am very sensitive to only participating as a contributor to the process, no other way.
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In the past, when we have had these kinds of workshops in Northern Affairs, I have opened the process indicating my expectations, and provide my encouragement. I make very clear to them that they are empowered to come up with what they think best, make very clear that those decisions are theirs.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
When I have been invited during processes like this to come back to sort of get a report as to how things are going, I have done that. Maybe most importantly of all in these kinds of processes, I have come in at the end for a debriefing, and my experience in this and the things I have done throughout my career in facilitating things myself, I found sometimes the debriefing is the most valuable of all, because from that you can learn most. Knowing that and having that in feeling ways, you can then also use that as a very clearly understood foundation for the next step in the process, and there is always a next step.
Ms. Mihychuk: Have there been preliminary discussions between First Nations and the minister in terms of generating this idea? Was this a collaborative approach? Is this a government initiative? Where did this come from?
I guess I am still not clear as to the purpose. The minister talked about greater awareness and cultural sensitivity, but I would think that this is--we are inviting the leadership of aboriginal organizations and the leadership of the mining sector, so I do not believe this would be a cultural awareness workshop. This apparently will be, perhaps, a time to look at the co-operation from all three sectors or to look to visioning as to how this could be done, which I think would be a positive step, but I am very interested in learning where the idea came from, and where this is going to lead to, I guess.
Mr. Newman: The idea came from me. The testing of whether the idea had any merit whatsoever came from countless discussions with aboriginal people and the mining industry, and the theme of the Mines and Minerals meeting, conference in Winnipeg in November of 1997 was--one of the themes--one of the major themes running through the whole conference was aboriginal involvement in mining and aboriginal views and aboriginal perspectives. A paper was presented by MKO Grand Chief Francis Flett, a paper was presented by Chief Ron Evans of the Norway House band. We had cultural features throughout the event. The wonderfully well-received entertainment at the closing banquet was all aboriginally driven. The gifts to speakers were talking sticks.
The whole theme, that theme was designed to expose people who do mining in Manitoba to the culture, and even in the cultural component at the banquet there was an educational component. There was an elder who was explaining the process. There was an opening prayer. So we have been working at this in those kinds of ways. That was the largest audience, but we have ongoing discussions and meetings with people from Cross Lake who are very interested in mining.
When we were in St. John's, Newfoundland, we had two representatives from the Cross Lake area who participated in that Mines ministers' conference in St. John's. We involved them in a dinner meeting with the Mining Association, and we learn from them every time we interact. I have had discussions with both grand chiefs.
The director of our Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit has been meeting with Merrell-Ann Phare, who is the director of the First Nations environmental group located at The Forks that reports to the Assembly of First Nations. She is an appointment of national Chief Phil Fontaine, and they are working very hard on environmental issues, and we have had the two of them interact. Bryan Gray, the director of the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit, the acting director, will be one of the resources at our meetings, because they have been focusing on this issue, discussing it and how they might go about it.
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So a lot of thought has gone into this and a lot of discussion has gone into it. This is not going to be, even at the initial meeting, I would hope--unless they want to come, and that is entirely up to them--will not be a meeting of CEOs and grand chiefs. They can come in whatever capacity they want, and they can be a representative, but we are talking about two representatives. The hope would be that the choice would be of--it might be nonpolitical people who are going to be the leaders or the informed, involved people in the influence they might have over communities, with communities.
The choice is theirs. The choice will be theirs who they send to the initial meeting, but it may very well be that they would see fit to send elders who have the respect of the First Nations. It may be that the MKO will send two people that they think are appropriate representing the North and the AMC will send two people that will represent the southern interests in mining. But the emphasis here is on understanding and appreciation--each for the other, and out of that, mutual respect. Understanding and mutual respect and sensitivity would be the kinds of things that hopefully will grow out of the process.
Ms. Mihychuk: Has an agenda been set for this workshop, and if so, can that be shared?
Mr. Newman: The agenda will have to be done in conjunction with the facilitator, and the deal has not yet been consummated to engage that facilitator, but I have--again, my experience in dealing with the aboriginal people in these kinds of processes is it is best to go in with a blank page and either have an agenda for discussion purposes--even that sometimes causes suspicion, so it is almost better if agendas are created by the process itself.
The goal is known, the letter does set out the purpose of all of this, but how you go about it has to be tailored for the participants and being very sensitive right at the beginning that no one should be dictating what the agenda is going to be.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, the aboriginal mining accord is found under the responsibility of the Mines Branch, and as we just discussed earlier, there are clearly some sensitivities about where mining companies or exploration companies do their business and how they respect First Nations lands in terms of resource areas, and so I think you are right, the minister is correct, there needs to be a great deal of sensitivity, and I am wondering about the Mines Branch being that facilitator.
I have all the confidence in the world that they are familiar with and culturally sensitive to the mining industry and to the Mining Association. I am wondering if they also have that sensitivity towards First Nations and the aboriginal community, if the management of the Mines Branch has had aboriginal cultural-awareness sessions and are familiar with First Nations issues and concerns so that they would be perceived to be neutral and lead this workshop or this initial stage.
So I guess my question is why is it centred on the Mines Branch? Perhaps there might have been--perhaps at more senior level to direct this, and what specific cultural and other learning processes have the branch members experienced so that they would be more sensitive and prepared to go into this with some type of background that is going to be useful for this workshop?
Mr. Newman: I think all of your comments here show a certain amount of understanding of the sensitivities which we are well aware of, I am certainly well aware of, and that is why it is useful to see the role of the Mines Branch as being a funding role. This is where the resources are coming from to do it, but this is not going to be driven by, dictated by the Mines Branch or its personnel. The facilitator, who we will engage, will definitely be an aboriginal person. The candidate happens to be an aboriginal woman.
The department, and I want to give the assistant deputy minister of Energy and Mines a very considerable amount of credit because as acting deputy minister for a period of time of both Northern Affairs and Energy and Mines, he has had a very intensive exposure which has been very helpful for his current position, extensive exposure to northern and native issues, as well as his long history in the Mines Branch.
It is no accident that the deputy minister who has been appointed, Oliver Boulette, is not only a well-respected, well-known Manitoba aboriginal but, as the long-time assistant deputy minister in the Northern Affairs portfolio, has extensive, intensive, intimate involvement in aboriginal issues and also has been leading, intensively so, the healthy Sustainable Communities initiative in the Department of Northern Affairs in these kinds of facilitated workshopping ways. So I think the top leadership in the mining area in our department is very well qualified to be involved. I have been assured that they are going to be involved by actually participating in the process.
As I indicated earlier, we have taken some steps. We have had our human resources leader participate in a Three Fire Society intensive learning experience. This is another one of those kinds of experiences, and whatever it will take through that process to have that kind of shared experience in this process, whatever emerges out of it may become less important than having shared a process, a learning experience together in this way.
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Ms. Mihychuk: It is positive that the director of human resources had that experience, but I would like to suggest that the senior management of the department, and I am not talking necessarily of the assistant deputy minister or the deputy minister, but those that are hands-on need to be aware of it, of cultural awareness, the role of mining, the role of the department in the North. I know of many circumstances where the department itself went out into communities fairly close to First Nations, never went to address themselves to the council or introduce themselves to the First Nations community, did no shopping in the community, did not provide the information to the community.
So there needs to be sensitivity amongst the geologists, amongst the branch management. I would say that the geologists, because they go up north, are probably more aware of what is going on than those that have desk jobs in Winnipeg. I urge again that those individuals such as the marketing director, the Mines Branch director, Financial branch director roll up their pants and take, yes, roll up their shirt sleeves and go up there and visit the North and visit First Nations communities so that they can understand exactly what the situation is.
I mean, the minister has been up north numerous times. I understand that, I recognize that, and I hear the sensitivity that he is talking about, but I think that the department needs to provide that experience to those who make policy decisions, that deal with mining companies, because then those branches would be more sensitive to those companies that want to, for example, do exploration in a resource area that is close to a reserve which may not appreciate that.
So although the minister talks about it, I think that there needs to be a much more comprehensive program of learning and communication. I urge the minister to look in depth in the department, because there is no doubt that they have familiarity with the mining industry, their needs, and their aspirations, but there needs to be that sensitivity throughout the department, not only the director of human resources but that each individual in the department understands that.
I think that it is reassuring to know that the assistant deputy minister is, I understand, going to be leading this project. I have a great deal of confidence in him and the deputy minister, but I do have sincere concerns that this is not near enough and that this is really baby steps in terms of where the department needs to go in dealing with mining companies, the mining industry, and the First Nations, that have virtually been excluded from the mining sector. So I will be watching with anticipation and perhaps we can see this mining accord grow and develop as I think it merits and look for that in the future.
Mr. Newman: I am pleased to hear what you have said. Some of your suggestions I have some difficulty with because I know how some of the First Nations and other aboriginal communities feel in terms of going into their communities. I have never gone without being invited to go, but aside from that, a minor kind of disagreement.
If you do monitor this closely, you and I will both be doing that. We are on the same kind of page on this, and I have very high expectations for the leadership of this department and everybody in the department, so it may very well be that we will be monitoring them together.
The difference is that I will be the one who accepts full responsibility for what they achieve and do not achieve, but they certainly have my direction with the resources that they have to do the maximum they can to achieve a higher level of cultural sensitivity and awareness, so they can more effectively relate in mutually beneficial ways with the aboriginal community for the benefit of the aboriginal community and mining and exploration in Manitoba and, therefore, for the benefit of all Manitobans.
I do agree that this is a part, but not as small a part as you think, in the process, but it is certainly just one part of a more comprehensive process which is ongoing and does involve cultural awareness and education programs within the department. But I do have very high expectations in this area and my department knows that, and I am encouraged that we seem to share that expectation, and that just means that the creative tension is stronger.
Ms. Mihychuk: One of the Expected Results from the Mines Branch is satisfactory resolution of questions, disputes, matters or claims, and I understand that these issues are referred to the Mining Board. Have there been issues referred to the Mining Board relating to this, and the number of issues that have been raised, have they increased, decreased? What is the status on these issues?
Mr. Newman: I am advised it is one or two a year, and the best information by recollection from my staff is 1997-98, one referral; in 1996-97, two referrals.
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Ms. Mihychuk: Who sits on the Mining Board, and are they remunerated?
Mr. Newman: There are five members on the panel, on the board, and three constitute a quorum. The chair is Doug Abra who is a lawyer. The vice-chair is Ian Restall who is a lawyer. Don Anderson [phonetic] is a geologist and retired professor; Lawrence Yaschyshyn [phonetic] from Thompson, and a fifth person whose name my staff cannot remember, but we will give you the name later.
Ms. Mihychuk: I have confidence that the department will provide that information in the future. The compensation that members of the Mining Board receive would be per meeting, or is it an annual rate? Do they report to the Mines Branch or to the minister, or what is the reporting procedure for the board?
Mr. Newman: What is the question? I will try to get the information before--in the next five minutes, but if not we will get the name of the fifth person right away.
Ms. Mihychuk: I do not believe I got a response as to whether the compensation for the board members would be included in that report or whether that information is available at this time.
Mr. Newman: They are paid, as I understand it, a per meeting fee, or a per diem fee, or per half-day fee. We will get that information for you, too.
Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what the length of service is for a board member? Are they appointed for a certain length of time, two years, five years? How are individuals selected for the Mining Board?
Mr. Newman: I will have to get you the details of the terms. I do not have personal knowledge of this, because I have been very satisfied with the performance of the board. I have had no reason to interfere with their composition.
Ms. Mihychuk: One of the other results that the branch hopes to achieve is the collection of all fees, rentals, royalties, taxes, and levies due to the Crown. Can we have a status of that activity and goal?
Mr. Newman: The revenue for 1996-97 was $4,081,403, including the rehabilitation levy. The 1997-98 revenue was $4,230,952. I do not have the figure. I do have the breakdown. Rehab for 1996-97 was: of the $4,081,000, $1,477,091; and the rehab levy out of the $4,230,000 was $1,643,052.
Ms. Mihychuk: How much is owing to the department? How many outstanding accounts are there and money that the department is actively trying to be reimbursed?
Mr. Newman: Less than $500.
Ms. Mihychuk: Well, that is a very good record. That is civil servants on the ball. Five hundred bucks and their income is over $4 million. Boy, I tell you, those civil servants work hard and very competent.
Well, I think I have harassed the Mines Branch enough and am actually prepared to move on to Geological Services.
Mr. Chairperson: 23.2.(c) Mines (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,370,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $559,500--pass.
23.2.(d) Geological Services (1) Salaries and Employee and Employee Benefits.
Ms. Mihychuk: We are now in the Geological Services Branch and look forward to exploring this in some detail and welcome the acting director, who I had an opportunity to meet at the mines convention, and I know that she has considerable experience across Canada and in Manitoba and has a fairly challenging responsibility directing Geological Services with, I understand from the minister, 32 geologists, total staff of almost 52 and a budget of $3.8 million.
It is the area where I hear probably the most about from industry, that the work that they do is very valuable and what they would like is a whole lot more of it. I also know that this sector has seen some downsizing, that there are fewer geologists in the department now than there were 10 years ago, probably five years ago, and the demands keep on growing.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour. Committee rise.