Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Committee of Supply come to order, please. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time. We are on Resolution 16.1 Administration and Finance (c) Native Education Directorate (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): The member had asked earlier for some things to be tabled, and we have them here. I think we have three copies of each. One is the Native Studies: Senior Years (S1-S4), A Teacher's Resource Book Framework. It is Senior 1 to Senior 4. We also have the Success for All Learners: A Handbook on Differentiating Instruction, which is a resource for kindergarten to Senior 4. As well we have the Native Studies: Middle Years, Grades 5 to 8, A Teacher's Resource Book Framework. As well, we have the Native Studies: Early Years, kindergarten to four, A Teacher's Resource Book.
As well, from information asked about the technology survey, I have three reports. I would just like to read something from one of them just before I put it in.
This survey was requested yesterday during our discussion on technology in context of the educational finance committee report. It was an internal document, but now we have it on our website--we did at one point any how have it on our website. There is a random sample of 881 schools, which shows the types of hardware, the operating systems, peripherals, Local Area Networks, access to the Internet, et cetera, including administrative applications, applications for teaching, staff development needs and technical support.
There is a summary at the end of it. Just quickly reading from the summary, it shows that this tabling contains information about the number of computers in Manitoba schools increasing substantially over the period from '86 to '97. Since the '95 survey, however, the number of computers in Manitoba schools has steadily increased in all Manitoba districts. The number of Apple/Macintosh computers in Manitoba schools has decreased from 92 percent in '86-87 to 34 percent in '97. DOS computers currently represent approximately 66 percent of the computers in Manitoba schools, so they are switching from one to the other.
The largest number of computers in Manitoba schools are DOS 486s. The number of DOS Pentium computers in schools reporting increased by 11 percent between '95 and '97. Approximately 19 percent of computers have 16 MBs or more RAMs. Approximately 27 percent of computers in Manitoba schools have sound or CD-ROM capability. The number of computers being used in classrooms is expected to continue as curriculum and technology are increasingly integrated. Subject areas including language arts, mathematics and technology education use computers in the classroom on a regular and frequent basis.
Relatedly, schools reporting across regions identified a strong need for professional development in the area of curriculum-matched software from multimedia to support learning. In addition, 84 percent of schools reporting said that technology can best support teaching and learning through curriculum-matched software.
The most frequently used operating system is Windows, three times, 60 percent of schools reporting. In 1997 almost 70 percent of schools reporting indicated they have a Local Area Network. Seventy-five percent have an e-mail address. Thirty-two percent of the schools still use SchoolNet, and 38 percent have a home page. Almost twice as many rural and northern schools were likely to have a home page when compared to the urban centres, so in that respect the northern schools are more advanced than others.
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Few schools indicated they have business industry partners who assisted them to acquire and implement technology, although we certainly would encourage that if industry is interested. Trevlac continues to be the most frequently used software for scheduling and timetabling and for grade reporting and attendance. Most technical support is provided by a school division technician or school division or co-ordinator, although this varied by region.
Approximately 40 percent of schools indicated that they had used the services of MERLIN, and 25 percent indicated they had visited the Manitoba Education and Training home page. This response was significantly higher in the urban schools than in other districts in Manitoba.
In the last 10 years, Manitoba schools have acquired computers and gained experience in a variety of applications. Increasingly, computers are being used in the classroom to increase students' learning outcomes. Schools are responding to the changing role of technology in education. Schools indicated a need for curriculum-matched software and professional development activities to support them to respond to the current challenge of integrating curriculum and technology.
That is a summary of what is in this document I am about to table, Mr. Chairman. We have three copies there. This was requested by the member yesterday.
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, at the end of last time, we were looking at the implementation of a strategy of teaching aboriginal perspectives across the curriculum. The minister had made reference to a document on the implementation of the math curriculum, and I had asked her to indicate in that curriculum where aboriginal material was presented or aboriginal perspectives. The minister, I think, then suggested this was not the place to ask it, and we went round a few things on that.
But I wanted to ask particularly about the implementation of the math curriculum, because I was not clear from the minister's statement whether in fact there was an implementation document for math or not and whether in fact there are aboriginal perspectives in that, not necessarily to discuss it now, but simply is there, and I will put it on my list to discuss it in the right place.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, yes, there are mathematics implementation documents for K to 4 and 5 to 8. She is right. I did say that, and I am confirming that, yes, I did say that, and that is the answer. We will have a report for tabling on Monday, and we will extract from that for her benefit those portions of the curriculum that are specifically with aboriginal perspectives in mathematics. I believe that is what she is looking for. So staff will compile those out of the document for her where they appear.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask about--and we can pass both lines at once--something under the Other Expenditures, and that is the increase in funds this time under this line for desk-top services. Can the minister explain what is proposed to be published under that particular increase? It goes from zero, I believe, in '97 to 4.7 in '98-99.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, this is the prorata share of the government's cost to shift desktop management to Systemhouse.
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Ms. Friesen: I would like two things following from that. One is: could the minister give us an indication of a two- or three-year plan for that? Is it likely to be the same amount each year? I understand there is a full government contract with Systemhouse of which each department is then charged a portion. Is this going to change over the next three years, or is this what we are likely to see each year? Secondly, the capital as a 27 point--this big increase from 4.5 to 27.5 for capital under Other Expenditures. I wonder if the minister could explain what that will be used for.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, regarding future costs, these numbers for '98-99 are projected to go to about 5.4, about 500,000--5,400. I am not sure. You know on doing projections, you are never absolutely positive. They should stay about that level once they get there. We have 27.5 capital, those are for increased costs for IT renewal, and staff is just looking up the other figures that you had asked for.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I wonder while the staff is doing that if the minister could explain what she means by IT renewal? I assume that is information technology renewal, and it is not interactive television, for example, in this context, and what exactly that means, $27,000, and what will it be used for? Obviously, it indicates a shift in this section of the department. You only used 4,000 last year; this year there is 27,000. That is a bit of a jump. Can the minister explain what will be done this year that was not done last year?
Mr. Chairperson: If I could just take a moment of your time, when you are being recognized, if you could wait till your light comes on on your microphone. These microphones are a little slower than the ones before. They take a second to energize. That way we will get your full statement.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, yes, IT renewal is information technology renewal, and I think the member knows what that means. I think she was just asking if IT did in fact stand for information renewal. I am pretty certain she understands what information renewal itself means. If not, I certainly welcome a question on it, but that is what it means.
The difference between this year, when we said we expect them to go to about $5,400 and then we are also looking at $25,000, we have added two new staff and those staff need to be equipped in terms of furniture, equipment, et cetera, plus we moved them to a different location. That is the reason for the difference in those two amounts but, as I say, we expect that once they get to the '98-99 level on the $5,400, they probably stay at about that level.
Ms. Friesen: The bottom line for expenditures in this section '97-98 was 212. I wonder if the minister could tell us what the actuals were?
Mrs. McIntosh: It is still being compiled, but staff indicates they expect it will be very close to that amount. They do not have the final figuring completed yet.
Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass--pass.
16.1.(c) Native Education Directorate (2) Other Expenditures $90,600--pass.
16.1. (d) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $565,100.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I have added to the staff component here this afternoon one Mr. Jack Gillespie from Human Resources Department of Education and Training.
Ms. Friesen: This section of the department appears to have undergone a considerable shift in that it now has become part of a larger service organization to a number of other sections of government, and I wonder if the minister could perhaps indicate what implications this has for changes in the department? Does it mean that there are fewer resources allocated to the department for this area? Could she indicate what are the six operating agencies that the Human Resource Services in this consolidation will cover?
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Mrs. McIntosh: We are still being provided with the same degree and quality of service in human resources that we were prior to Mr. Gillespie assuming other duties as well as those particularly relating to our department.
Ms. Friesen: The second part of the question dealt with which of the six operating agencies that are part of this consolidation, departments to be served by one human resource service.
Mrs. McIntosh: Property Registry, MERLIN, Manitoba Textbook Bureau, Vital Statistics, Fire Commissioner's office, Companies Office.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us who deals with the human resources policies for the Council on Post-Secondary Education?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Gillespie would do that.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us how many new appointments there have been in the department this year, and how many of those were done by open competition?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could just seek some clarification from the member on her question. Does she mean the total number of staffing actions that have taken place by competition or does she mean have we added new positions or taken away new positions, if like we added new positions and had competitions or do you mean the total actions that took place across the department without adding or deleting any positions?
Ms. Friesen: I am interested in the first instance in new positions. How many were filled by open competition?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, we will come back with the number of positions on Monday, but I can indicate that, if you include the new federal employees that we have taken, we have got well over a hundred here including them. Yes, there are 118 there alone that we took over from the federal government on devolution of the labour market agreement because of the labour market agreement. Those, of course, were not open to competition because the people were coming with the positions, but I will get the exact numbers.
Mr. Gillespie advises me that pretty well all of these were done by open competition. There may have been a couple that were closed or internal. We will get the details on those too. Pardon me, we may have those details here, sort of case by case, but the exact number department-wide, as I said, will be well over a hundred. But we do not know until we go back and pull them out and check through, which we will do for the member.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, for purposes of the analysis, I think you can group as one group those who were transferred and then let us look at the other ones individually as to new positions and those which were either filled or intended to be filled by open competition.
I wanted to ask the minister, secondly, about Order-in-Council appointments and how many there have been this year in the department, and how many Order-in-Council appointees there are in the department as a whole as it stands at the moment.
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Mrs. McIntosh: I do not believe there were any in this last year, unless the member is referring as well to those O/Cs for board appointments such as boards of governors at universities and those types of things because there would be several of those, but in terms of staff for the department such as the deputy, for example, who is appointed by O/C, I do not think we have had any in this last year. Mr. Gillespie will go back and check the records, but he does not recall any for this year either.
We have two deputies and three assistant deputies and Dick Dawson from the Council on Post-Secondary Education. They have all been there for more than a year. I do not believe we have any others in the department. We will double-check it for her though.
Ms. Friesen: Is the minister then saying that to her knowledge there are only six Order-in-Council appointees in the department?
Mrs. McIntosh: It is either that, or, if we are out we are out by about one, outside two. We will double-check it, but certainly we believe this is correct; that this is all we have got. We may have one more. I doubt we have two more.
Ms. Friesen: The majority of the department will have been appointed by open competition through the Civil Service. There will also be people who are on contract and people who are seconded. Is there another category of employee?
Mrs. McIntosh: I think these people are already included here unless the member is referring to my own executive and special assistants, but they too have both been there more than a year, I believe. Mr. Lockhart may be within the year, but I do not think so, and Mrs. Hall has been there for four years.
Just for clarification, we have three areas that we look at in terms of categories, just to make sure we are all talking about the same thing. By open competition, we mean right across government; closed competition, we would mean like within the Department of Education and Training; secondments are pretty well always done by competition, as well from our experience here. If by open competition she means right across government, well, let us just say that is what we mean so that when the member is asking questions she will know that we are interpreting it that way. Open is right across government, closed is within the Department of Education and Training and secondments, from our experience, have pretty well always been by competition as well. There is also open to the public, and that would come under that first open across government and beyond, sort of thing, not limited to the department.
Ms. Friesen: That is what I meant, open ones where people can apply from other departments and from outside government. I am actually interested in the minister's including secondments as that, because I understood secondments to actually be something rather more pointed, more directed, more selected, more initiated by the department rather than by an open competition. Closed ones, I think we are on the same wave length. My question really is: can the minister clarify that secondment, but also could the department give me an account of how many people in the department are on contract rather than in regular appointments?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, we are gathering the one piece of information that the member had requested, but just in terms of the secondments, we very much believe in trying to provide as much opportunity from the field coming into the department to be part of what is happening in Education and Training, so what we do is we will, if we need an expert in an area, be it, well I will just say music, for example, or whatever, we will advertise to the school divisions and people who are interested in the school divisions can apply. We do it by open formal competition, the same as if it were a position to be filled, and then at the end of the competition the person who has won the competition, so to speak, is then seconded to the department for a period of time. In this way, we get a really good variety of people. We also then get to find people that we might not be able to find on our own. By advertising it as a competition, people will come forward that we (a) may not know or (b) if we did know, we may not have realized they had this interest. So I think it is a much better way of seconding from the field, because we have to second so many people from the field to come in and assist with various chores. We feel this is the most effective, most open, most fair way to do it to give everybody an opportunity as well. I know it was not done in the past necessarily, but when we came into government, we thought it was the preferred way to find experts in the field.
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Having said that, there will be occasions when we will second directly without going through a competition process. Almost invariably for a position where we need somebody to come in from the field for a couple of years to work on a particular area of endeavour, it will be open competition, but, for example, my special advisor, Mr. Masters, was chosen directly, was a direct appointment, a secondment, as opposed to going through a competition, but the vast majority are through competition. I know it is unusual, but we do find some wonderful people that way that we did not know were there in other things.
Mr. Gillespie has just indicated that we do not have any at the present time. No one in the department at the present time is on a contract, which was, I think, the start to your question there, start to the member's question--sorry, through you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure then if we are actually speaking about the same thing in terms of contracts. There are obviously professional fees, professional contracts throughout the department. That would be one category, and then there would be a second category of people who are on term appointments, which I perhaps should have referred to more precisely.
If there are no people who are on actual contracts as defined by the civil service, how many are there on professional contracts and how many are term appointments?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, we have no staff on a professional-fee contract. We do have term appointments, however. We have no staff on a professional-fee contract. We have term appointments, and the exact number we will table with the other information on Monday when we come back because we do not have the exact number.
The term appointments, they are sort of short-term projects, bring someone in, do the work and they go. We will have some that are a bit longer working on special projects. We do not have the exact number of term appointments with this. We can count it up, though, and bring it in for you Monday, and we will do that. We also have casual staff that will come in from time to time, which are different from term appointments, but, as I say, no staff on a professional fee contract.
Ms. Friesen: In this section of the department, and I am on to Other Expenditures, there is a large increase in Operating and in Desktop Services again. Could the minister tell me whether this also is part of the ISM contract or Systemhouse contract and what the increase is for the operating capital?
Mrs. McIntosh: The short answer is yes, and it is similar to the question on the aboriginal directorate. It is a pro rata share, this time from human resources.
Ms. Friesen: Are we speaking specifically about the Desktop Services? The 26.5 is the ISM contract?
Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Friesen: The other part of my question dealt with the $40,000, which is a $30,000 increase from last year on Other Operating.
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Mrs. McIntosh: What we have is the coming together of five departments, and six special operating agencies, and what you see in this $30,000 increase are two components: the pro rata cost due to desktop, and the new staff having come from the other departments with their operating dollars. You had two staff come in from Labour, one and a half from Housing, one from Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and they managed to accomplish all that with an increase of only 13.8--$13,800, which I think is really extremely good when you consider the amalgamation that has taken place there. The total shows then a $30,300 increase, and that is the way it is broken down.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I do not understand the impact of this on education. Why were $30,000 from other departments being charged to the Department of Education? There has been no change in function, there has been no change in service. Yet, all of a sudden, there is a $30,000 increase additional charge. So why would this be charged to Education? This is not an Education cost from what the minister has just said.
Mrs. McIntosh: Sorry for the delay. Just in consulting with staff, and the member is quite correct, we were in error here and appreciate her picking it up and pointing it out. The 13.8 that we were referencing in actuality is an increase of 3.8 for computer training with the 26.5 being the desktop prorated. There was no extra cost of amalgamation because it was done by an adjusted vote, so I hope that corrects or clarifies for her what she correctly identified as an error.
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Ms. Friesen: Could the minister table the department's Manitoba Measures business plan?
Mrs. McIntosh: I do not believe I am able to do that. My indication given here by my senior staff is that that is an internal document. It is in that category we were discussing the other day of work that is internal, it is for our own purposes. It is our understanding that it is not a public document. We can double check on that, but that is my understanding, and that being the case, then it would not be available for public tabling, unless the member has--maybe she can define what it is she is referring to.
Ms. Friesen: What I am referring to, Mr. Chairman, is what I am being asked to vote upon here and that is the Activity Identification in 16.1(d) which says that this section of the department is to develop the skills and knowledge, the departmental role and mission statements, critical success factors and objectives as reflected in each department's Manitoba Measures business plan.
This is one section of the department where it specifically refers to the Manitoba Measures business plan, and I certainly do encourage the minister to check on whether this is a confidential document or not. I thought it was bizarre enough that increasing the graduation rate of aboriginal students was a confidential plan for so long. Now we find out the business plan is confidential for a department, and yet we are being asked to vote on it. That does not seem appropriate to me, and I compare it to Alberta, for example, where business plans are put out to the public, where reviews are held of them, public reviews. They are published. They are re-evaluated every three years, the rolling business plan. They are not business plans I particularly like, but the public process is very clear. Alberta is very unjustly proud of that, and yet here we have a Manitoba Measures business plan which the minister is trying to tell me I should vote on and yet it is confidential.
How do I know, how does any Manitoban know whether this department is meeting the objectives as reflected in the department's business plan if we are not allowed to see the business plan?
Mrs. McIntosh: As I said to the member, we will do the double check to see what the status of the particular document is. The line here indicates that part of Human Resource's responsibilities will be to assist in various activities to make sure that plan is tested. It is in pilot stage. It is internal. It is developmental, and it is for the future.
We will, as I say, seriously take a look at what the member has requested, but I think she would know and acknowledge that things that are underway and in pilot stage and being tested, parts of the government are still in that developmental stage. There are aspects of confidentiality normally associated with them, as I know she felt it was bizarre that in developing the aboriginal policy that the staff did not speak publicly about the policy until government had approved it. But I do not think that is bizarre, and it was the same methodology used by her government when it was in power.
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Their policies were not announced until they had received government approval, and up until that point no matter how bizarre members opposite might have thought it to be, it was still deemed to be something that did not yet officially exist as a government thing. We are still learning and growing in terms of business planning and in terms of these particular plans, in terms of writing them, and understanding their nature and purpose. So our plan is very rudimentary right now, and the integral part of learning is teaching. In human resources, staff are being given opportunity to learn about the topic and indeed learn the skills of planning in a business plan format.
So because it is at this stage in its development, I am not certain that it is something that is able to be tabled. I will check and find out. But I think the member understands the sensitivities that we are discussing. The reference in the book refers not to the plans so much, but in context and activity that human resources does, and that activity is to see that this thing is being monitored and does not mean that it is in final stage for public accessibility.
So, as I say, I will go and take a look at that and make sure that my interpretation is correct, but I would rather err on the side of caution than noncaution. I can let the member know, and if I am able to I will table it. If I am not, I will come back with the rationale that--[interjection] Well, this is right. As I said before, the plan is still in its developmental stages. It is rudimentary, and that is about all I can say at this time.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, well, I certainly encourage the minister to do that. The Manitoba Measures business plan, of course, has had no input from the public, something which is quite unlike the experience in Alberta. It is one of three areas, three activity identifications in this section of the department, so I am surprised that the minister now refers to it--it is referred to as in the past and completed tense on page 30 of the book that we are working from, the detailed Estimates--and the minister now refers to it as rudimentary and in the process of development.
I am not going to spend anymore time on that. It is just very indicative I think of the secretive nature of this government, and I think the minister makes a mistake if she is emphasizing my concerns about the confidentiality of the government's strategic plan. What strikes me as bizarre about it is that we are to assume that the desire to increase aboriginal graduation rates, participation rates and partnership with the aboriginal community did not exist before this plan. I mean, that is what is so bizarre about it, and that that whole aspect of government goals and policy should become confidential, secretive, unable to be discussed with the stakeholders in education seems to me really very, very odd. Now we are up to another secretive measure, something which other provinces have found great benefit in talking to the public about.
So I encourage the government to talk to the public. The public is very interested in government efficiency. It is very interested in their Alberta business plans. Different sections of the Alberta community have made a great effort to be involved in that. There are three-year rolling plans that the department, that the public, that the stakeholders are all very clearly aware of, and that is not what is happening here.
I think the minister's staff is encountering some of the out from the fallout from this when they do go out and are met, as they often are, with questions and hostility and indications that they would like to have more input into the department and into the policies and, as the minister has indicated, yes, into the speed at which some of the plans from the department are coming.
So I recommend to the department that they do involve the public, they do involve the stakeholders in their three-year or five-year or, God, any-year development plans for this department and for the Administration and Finance, as well as for the programming of the department. The isolation of the department from so many areas of the stakeholders, in terms of planning and development of long-term goals, seems to me to be one of the long-term difficulties that is emerging in education.
So, Mr. Chairman, with that, I am prepared to have the government pass this line. I feel great difficulty in myself voting on anything on which I have not been shown and which appears to be quite unnecessarily secretive, and on which the public has had no input either.
Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass--pass; 1.(d) Human Resource Services (2) Other Expenditures $93,700--pass.
Item 16.1.(e) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,004,300.
Ms. Friesen: I want to go back to last year's Estimates and to the Auditor's report. The Auditor made a number of specific recommendations to the department, and, again, I raised these questions last year. I thought the Auditor made some very good points about reporting. He congratulated the department on its annual reporting, that it had become much speedier. I would also like to add my congratulations again to the department this year and a very speedy report in turning out the annual report.
The other elements of the Auditor's Report, which the minister expressed interest in and concern for last year, do not seem to have changed. There does not seem to be any response. Now maybe I am missing this, so maybe I could ask the minister to tell me: In what ways has the department responded to the Auditor's Report from two years ago? When we met last year in Estimates, it was obvious that the department had not had time to make changes. Printing and preparation obviously took more time than made it possible to respond to the Auditor's report. But this year we are in the second year, and I would have expected some changes.
I am not clear that there have been the changes that the Auditor was recommending, and I am asking on the basis of a second year now of how the government has responded to them and what plans they have for the future in this area.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the Auditor's report, well, that is two years back, but going from memory, focused on results and outcomes, and in response to that report we have done a number of things. We have established a planning committee, a school division department planning committee on realignment. We have better information in the supplement via more specific statements. We have begun the indicators project that you referred to earlier in Estimates. Those were specific responses, not just to the Auditor's report because the indicators project is a proper response to a number of questions. Certainly it is a proper response to the Auditor's report from that era. Those are the types of things that we have done to focus in on results and outcomes as indicated by the Auditor two years ago.
As I say, we have come prepared for this year's Estimates. We do not have the older documents that predate this, but that is what we can recall, as accurate response to the member's question.
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Ms. Friesen: Well, I think what the Auditor was talking about was communication, first of all, and fragmentation of material and documentation of education issues. On page 72, for example, of the Auditor's report, he talked about that the acts and regulations governing the reporting requirements for public school programs do not clearly outline the requirement for the members of the Legislative Assembly to be provided with sufficient and appropriate planning and performance indication.
The minister has said, and I think I am getting her response to this one, that she has established a planning committee with school divisions on realignment. Is that the answer to that Auditor's question, and realignment of what?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the alignment we are talking about is the committee on planning realignment to ensure that all the planning that goes out to divisions and everything is well co-ordinated and not at cross purposes with each other. The Auditor had wanted to see our goals, objectives, those kinds of things in legislation. We have chosen a nonregulatory approach. We know that our New Directions blueprint Foundation for Excellence documents have aspects of them that are legislated or have some regulations attached to them, which is what the Auditor wants to see more of. We have responded by issuing directives to divisions, still basically nonregulatory.
It might help the member if I tabled the planning document which is called Planning in Education: Strengthening School Division Planning as a Step Towards Aligning Department, Division and School Planning. So the realignment that I mention and refer to is that those three areas, which each on its own has planning components, that we are aligned. I think this would please the Auditor to see this document because it does help make sure that things are--I do not have three copies. I just have one. Could you make the copies? Thank you. So that is what that alignment referred to. As I say, we have chosen a nonregulatory approach. We do provide directives to the divisions on many of these issues. I hope that document on alignment will provide further information for the member.
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Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering, it is 10 after four. We have been here since 1:30, and we will be here till six. Would it be appropriate to take a 10-minute break? Would the member--I would appreciate one at this point, and come back in about 10 minutes, just stretch a bit?
Mr. Chairperson: Recess for 10 minutes.
The committee recessed at 4:11 p.m.
The committee resumed at 4.23 p.m.
Mr. Chairperson: The committee will come to order.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure if the minister has put on the record--is this being a tabled document, or is it just passed to me? Do we need to put it on the record? [interjection] It was? Okay.
I still want to talk about the Auditor's Report and the department's response to it, and I wonder if the department made a formal response to the Auditor's Report. Is there a written document whereby departments do this on a regular basis if they are referred to specifically in the Auditor's Report? And secondly, I want to particularly ask about the Auditor's recommendation that public school program costs be brought together for the purposes of reporting to the Legislative Assembly.
He drew the public's attention to the fact that they are fragmented through the Estimates, and he also mentioned that normally he or she would anticipate that the obstacles to successful completion of activities were not mentioned in the department's reporting, and he anticipated that all departments would do this. So I wondered whether (a) there was a formal report and (b) and (c) whether the department had responded to both those concerns of the Auditor.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, we are at a bit of a disadvantage in that the report the member is referring to, of course, is two years old, and we do not have it here. We are getting it faxed over, but we have come, as I said, with this year's stuff, because it was this year's Estimates. So we will get it sent over.
But in terms of where our response to the report is, as the member knows in terms of how the Auditor does the report, our response is right in the report. The Auditor will do the examination, will come up with ideas, will sit down and discuss those with the department, the department will provide a response, and the Auditor will say something like I believe the department should do such and such, and the department has indicated that it will or it will not or it will try this other thing. So the response is right in the report, and we do not normally then write to the Auditor to tell the Auditor what our response is when it has already been discussed in-depth and is included in the Auditor's Report.
Then we do go on, of course, and if we have said to the Auditor that we are going to improve our Estimates supplement to include more outcome statements, if we have said that to the Auditor, then, of course, we begin to do that. Eventually it may be that we will move to a more complete report to the Legislature as the member indicates, but we are not doing that right now. We have to indicate as well, regarding the Auditor's report, that the Auditor in that report--although, as I say, because it is an old one, we do not have it here--did reference that we had good financial reporting but needed to improve on performance reporting. So, with that, then it was good to know that we had good financial reporting and good to know where we should improve on performance reporting.
So we went to the FRAME committee and the view was that is was broader than the mandate and the impact needed for input of schools, school divisions, superintendents, et cetera. But that led us ultimately to this thing that I have just tabled: Strengthening School Division Planning as a Step towards Aligning Department, Division and School Planning. Part of that would be how to do each report to their public on outcomes, but an intervening matter, of course, is the way all of government is wanting to change how it does business. The Better Methods, Better Systems, desktop management, Manitoba Measures activities--these, as they come to fruition, will help address some of those goals and concerns. They are coming to fruition, and they will help us meet the Auditor's expectations.
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So this report that we have just tabled, I think, will indicate the number of people from various organizations that have been involved just because the member was concerned before that we were sort of internal and not consulting and secretive and so on; but, if you look at the number of people who have been involved here and the places and the areas from which they come and you see that we have the Teachers' Society, the department, the school trustees' association, the superintendents' association. We have the Association of School Business Officials. Those are pretty broad. As a broad knowledge base and broad experience base in terms of education experience, that is there.
Another important piece, of course, in response to the Auditor will be a fully developed set of indicators, again working with other educational groups to ensure that we are on the right track. Not only will that be done and worked with in conjunction with the Manitoba Teachers' Society, but also with the minister's advisory committee on the implementation of educational change, which not only has MTS, MAST and MASS, but it also has the parent organizations. It has principals; it has independent schools, public schools, department people, teachers, trustees, superintendents. It is a very large and very diverse committee. So those indicators, I think, when they are completed, will be very good. I think that, if the member looks through this little draft document, she will get a sense of where we are going on the Planning in Education and what we meant by realigning there.
We will have the Auditor's report faxed to us. We still have it around, even though it is a couple of years old; they are still on file. If the member has other documents from years gone by that she would like us to be looking at in this year's Estimates, if we could know ahead of time, we would make sure we could dig them out of the files and bring them along with us, because we are not unwilling to talk about them. It is just that we come prepared for this year's Estimates, being that is what we were told to come and do. I am happy to explore the others, happy to explore the future, even though we cannot always table future decisions, because they are not yet made, and happy to explore the past and check progress, no problem. We need to know which documents we need to have here if it is not going to be this year.
There may be more to this that the member would like to ask. I will pause and if she has more I will try to respond to those for her also.
Ms. Friesen: I could point out to the minister that if she had checked Estimates from last year, we did raise these questions. We did recognize in Estimates last year that there had not been time between the Auditor's Report and the production of this year's Estimates for the department to begin to move in the direction that the Auditor had suggested, so it seems to me it would have been remiss on my part had I not brought this up again and given the department the opportunity to respond. So I do not think the minister should be dismissing this as a matter of old documents and bringing things from two years ago.
I recognized last year the department had not had the time to move on a couple of these issues and looked forward to seeing what changes the department is going to bring this time. The minister has tabled a document called Planning an Education, which certainly helps to understand the use of the term "alignment" and "planning an alignment," but it still seems to me not to answer the issues that the Auditor has raised, which are directions and suggestions to the department on how they will communicate and how they ought to be communicating the overall funding of education.
I think I have already said this before in this section, that the Auditor recognized that in Estimates public school program costs are fragmented. I am quoting directly from what I said last year. I am quoting directly from what the Auditor said. I had anticipated that that was a relatively simple and straightforward change to make, that the Public Schools Finance Board, that the educational support levy, all of the other elements of education financing could be reported relatively simply by the department in one document, and that was what the Auditor recommended. He recommended it in a number of places, the communication of education financing.
I wonder, the department last year seemed interested in it. I can quote the minister's words at her, but I do not seem to have seen any changes. I thought that was something that the government would have been interested in doing that would have benefited the public, that was nonpartisan and yet I do not see any changes. That is why I asked the department what changes they had made and what changes they intended to make.
I would like to ask, under this section of the department, about some differences in financing of this section of the department. I wonder if the minister could tell me something about the elimination of the five support positions offset by the establishment of sustainable development functions and desktop services. To which of those initiatives do we attribute the loss of five positions? Is it 2.5 in each one or which one brought in the most realignment? Were jobs lost or were positions reassigned to other areas of the department? I have another question about the increase in Other Expenditures, but I will leave that for a minute.
Mrs. McIntosh: First of all, I appreciate the clarification provided by the member on the Auditor's Report and want to indicate that in no way was I dismissing the report or displaying any reluctance to discuss it, just regretting rather that I did not have the document here to ease the discussion. As I say it is being faxed but quite happy to discuss it, no problem. I appreciate the clarification she has provided around that.
In answer to the question about the five positions, we had policy and planning being done differently in the department. There were five staff there that were redeployed. There were no layoffs. There was one new position for sustainable development and the other costs added were for desktop management, so there were, in short, to sum it up, no jobs lost in that sense. The people are all still employed. They just have different places where they are working now than where they worked before.
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Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain what the department's sustainable development initiative is and does she have a document that she can table on that? The second question is the change from '97 to '98 in Other Expenditures. It goes from $34,000 in one column to $106,000 in '98-99. What is the reason for that shift?
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the duties of this person would be to serve as a liaison with the Sustainable Development Unit in government, especially regarding the provincial strategy, to lead the co-ordination within the kindergarten to Senior 4 and with post-secondary because, as you know, sustainable development is one of those threads that were--
An Honourable Member: Buzzwords.
Mrs. McIntosh: No, the member for Burrows has said buzzword, and that is a very strong disservice to a worldwide concept that has--[interjection] Beg your pardon?
An Honourable Member: Buzzword is not pejorative.
Mrs. McIntosh: It is pejorative. Well, in my opinion, usually people say buzzword as if it is sort of trendy or faddish and easily dismissed, and the member is nodding that that is what he meant. But I am so deeply and profoundly committed to the ideas that were outlined in the Brundtland Report and I know the Premier (Mr. Filmon) as well. I know the Premier going down to Rio to head up international interests, and I know as a member of the Learning for a Sustainable Future conference and committee, which I am missing next week but I will not refer to, is like this is an incredible, incredible thrust that is absolutely necessary if we are to sustain our planet and our way of life and still be able to progress. It is critical.
There are some things that I think are critical that need to be threaded through the curriculum, and this is one of them. Maybe it is trendy. It may be a trendy word or a trendy phrase and maybe it has become fashionable, but it has got a powerful reason, I guess, for having become popular. At any rate, a little aside there. I know the member for Burrows does have a true and honest feel for environmental protection, and I know he is sincere about that. Maybe we need to get together sometime and co-ordinate our definitions, because I have a feeling that we probably do not really think too differently on this issue. It is semantics and partisan positioning that would make it seem as if we have different views.
At any rate, back to the liaison with various parts of government, anywhere that sustainable development is being encountered. This person will also conduct school level workshops as time permits, review government and departmental documents, exams, curricula, from a sus dev perspective. We do not ever want, as we are going through curricula, as we are going through science and geography and history, to be encouraging in any way students to think that progress can be made in this world without strong attention to environmental issues. We have really good, sensitive mikes now, as the deputy has just found out. I was trying to indicate earlier today or yesterday I guess to one of the MLAs that the mikes do work. We do not have to shout anymore, and when we bump them we really know that that is true.
The policy on this that the staffperson will be working with, the government of Manitoba has made sustainable development the cornerstone of its environmental, economic and social agenda. We do not, for example, undertake things if we think they cannot be sustainable, and it is not just that we say in terms of the environment that we will not embark upon industries if in some way it is going to make the natural resources or raw products from which we derive the industry unsustainable. Similarly, we do not embark upon economic or social agenda that are not going to be sustainable. That then challenges the mind to ensure ways of determining that certain beneficial thrusts become sustainable, and it forces the mind to focus in very wonderful ways.
The department, under the guidance of what used to be called the Manitoba Round Table on Environment and Economy, has been assigned responsibility to lead the development of Manitoba Sustainable Development Education Strategy. We have resources that are therefore required for the associated consultations, for the document preparation and eventual implementation in Manitoba, and, Mr. Chairman, in light of Bill 61, which is The Sustainable Development Act, and its significant implications for Education and Training as a whole, the department will also undertake activities to co-ordinate and strengthen its response to sustainable development.
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Those activities will include things such as co-ordinating the implementation of sustainable development of all Education and Training initiatives, policies, programs and activities and in administering and monitoring education-related sus dev innovation fund projects assigned to the department by the Sustainable Development Committee of Cabinet.
So we have those initiatives underway, and I just want to, because I think it is confusing sometimes as to what sustainable development is really all about--I think this is an extremely important area, and I would like to have anybody who is reading the Hansard on this do some more research into it. I will not go through and read the Brundtland Report into the record because that would be taking us forever, but it is something I would love to be able to do in terms of those people who may be listening on the electronic communications or who may be following this by written words in Hansard.
Do get hold of the Brundtland Report. Do read what sustainable development is all about. Try to learn why it is so important and why it has become the cornerstone of our government and is being seen nationally as absolutely vital to the continued growth and prosperity of the nation in which we live called Canada and why it has become an internationally accepted thrust and why so many people around the world are trying to bring in countries that are not yet familiar with this concept to make them part of a worldwide effort to treat our planet the way it deserves to be treated and to see our economy and our society in terms of that same sustainable milieu.
In short, if you ask the question, what is sustainable development--
Ms. Friesen: I did not ask what sustainable development was; I asked the minister if she had a document on the Manitoba educational sustainable development strategy that she could table, and the minister seemed to have strayed a long way from that question. There was a second question which also dealt with increased resources in a certain area of the department.
Mrs. McIntosh: Same point of order, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I did not realize the honourable member was on a point of order.
The honourable minister, on the same point of order.
Mrs. McIntosh: The member had asked for our strategy on sustainable development. We do not have a document. What I am explaining to the member is the principles behind the strategy. I do not have a document to table, so I am trying to provide her verbally with the information she has requested and to define what we mean by sustainable development because I was given indication earlier that perhaps there was a different definition being understood from members opposite. So, in order to clarify what our strategy is, I must first define what it is we mean by sustainable development, and I am also very highly conscious of the fact the member stressed our first day, and that was she stressed that I was not answering her.
I was speaking for the record for the people of Manitoba. She stressed that, and I accept that. So I think her point of order--I am doing exactly what she has asked me to do.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I will deal with one point of order at a time. The honourable member does not have a point of order on the first one. It is a dispute over the facts.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Wolseley, on another point of order.
Ms. Friesen: Yes, the point of order is that the minister is, for whatever reason, misinterpreting what I said. I think one of the things a minister is being judged on in Estimates is her ability to answer questions. First of all, demonstrate an understanding of the issues facing Manitoba Education, and secondly to respond publicly to the record to the questions asked by the official opposition.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like--the honourable member does not have a point of order. I would like to remind the member that a point of order should be brought up when we are moving away from the rules of the House, not necessarily on whether how somebody is asking the question. The honourable member for Wolseley, to put the question or were you answering.
Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister, to conclude her response.
Mrs. McIntosh: The member had a two-part question: one was the strategy on sustainable development, and the other was regarding some financial figures. I will give the second part first, come back to the definition. I do think it is important the definition of sustainable development enter the record here, if I am to be truly accountable and judged on my answers. To leave that out would be a gross omission.
If you were asked, what is sustainable development, then you would get according to the government's perspective a response that would indicate that there are three components, life on earth is a complex system of interdependent components. These three components: human beings experience environmental, economy, societal health and well-being all play a pivotal role in determining our quality of life. As a result, the environment, the life-sustaining processes of the earth and its natural resources; the economy, the provision of jobs, incomes and wealth resulting from economic activity; and societal health and well-being, which is the overall health and well-being of individuals and communities are all interdependent. A change in any one has a significant impact on the others.
Education then has a vital role to play in promoting and fostering an understanding of this integration. It must support the balance of preserving and protecting the environment while maintaining human development that is sustainable, and this is why it is one of our cornerstones. It is why we have The Sustainable Development Act. We have material and booklets on this. I invite anybody who is listening to this on electronic media or reading it in Hansard to ask for those documents and learn about sustainable development. I know I am doing a bit of proselytization here, a little evangelism, but it is such an important subject area.
In terms of the second part of the member's question, the net decrease in operating expenditures of $75,600 is due to an increase of $125,000 for sustainable development, an additional 22.9 to increase allotment for desktop management, for a total of $49,700, less reductions of $54,300 due to the wind-up of planning and policy co-ordination and a decrease in the rate charged for accommodations. So I think those two responses, I hope, have covered the question that the member opposite asked.
Ms. Friesen: I was looking for a specific answer on the reason for the shift from $34,000 to $106,000 this year. It was quite a specific question. The minister has given me a global response, and it is I believe the second or third time I have posed the question, so I do not believe it is unreasonable to request an answer.
Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, what I provided the member is the total difference between the two. Staff has just indicated looking at the time that there probably would not be time in the next 60 seconds to get the breakdown that she has requested out of that total, but we could have it for the next time we come together to sit.
Mr. Chairperson: I think that would be appropriate if the minister's staff would take the time to get the proper answer for the next time we are sitting. We will now call it five o'clock. Time for private members' hour. Committee rise.
Call in the Speaker.
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