Madam Speaker: Order, please. It is 5 p.m. and time for private members' hour.
House Business
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I am sorry that I have not had a chance to talk to the government House leader. However, I believe arrangements have been made and, if not, I am asking for leave to allow Resolution 16 to remain on the Order Paper because the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) is unavoidably absent for personal reasons. So we will proceed extremely briefly with No. 17 and debate No. 18 if there is leave of the House.
Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to leave Resolution 16 standing at the top of the Order Paper in its current position?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, as the member stated, we have not had a chance to talk to our House leader either. So I do not know whether he has had any other discussion with other sponsors of this Private Members' Business, and I would be interested if we would just take a couple of minutes before we proceed.
Madam Speaker: Is there leave to pause for a couple of minutes before clarifying the intent of the members?
Is there leave to permit Resolution 16, in the name of the honourable member for Brandon East, to retain its position in the Order Paper and move now to Resolution 17, standing in the name of the honourable member for Crescentwood? Leave? [Agreed]
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, thank you. I believe that on the basis of precedence, precedent rulings, this motion may be out of order because the matter has been debated by the House previously this session, and a resolution opposing the MAI and calling on the federal government to hold hearings across the country and in Manitoba and a variety of other actions have been taken by this House unanimously, for which I think all members deserve credit. So I would respectfully ask leave of the House to withdraw this resolution from the Order Paper at this time.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) have leave to withdraw proposed Resolution 17, based on the premise that it would be ruled out of order because it is an item that has been previously debated, that being specifically Opposition Day that was devoted to that resolution? Agreed? Is there leave?
Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I apologize to the honourable members, and perhaps the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) will join me in that apology. Discussions were held earlier this afternoon between House leaders and, subject to the approval of honourable members, it was decided that the resolution standing in the name of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) would maintain its place on the list, that the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) would likely ask that his resolution be withdrawn, and that we would then proceed with Resolution 18, standing in the name of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). I agree to the withdrawal of the honourable member's resolution.
Madam Speaker: So leave has been granted for the withdraw of Resolution 17? [agreed]
Madam Speaker: We will now then proceed with Private Members' Business, proposed Resolution 18.
Res. 18-Recycling for Apartment Dwellers
Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), that
"WHEREAS the Provincial Government has committed to the provision of recycling services for all Manitobans and the reduction of waste by 50 per cent by the year 2000, based on 1988 figures; and
"WHEREAS the Provincial Government, in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg, has established a recycling program which is woefully inadequate as it neglects and excludes 30 per cent of Winnipeg householders, roughly 90,000 residents, who live in apartment complexes or townhouses, by disallowing them from utilizing the recycling services; and
"WHEREAS the Provincial Government has been and continues to charge a 2 cent environmental levy on all purchases of beverage containers which all consumers are required to pay, and which continues to raise a revenue of over $400,000 a month for the provincial government; and
"WHEREAS recent indications support the forecast that the projected surplus from the 2 cent beverage container levy will be $6 million; and
"WHEREAS given that apartment dwellers have contributed to this fund, many of them are angry that they are being forced to pay the environmental levy without being given access to recycling services; and
"WHEREAS all Manitobans who are taxed for a service should have the opportunity to utilize that service without being discriminated against based upon their residence.
"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government working in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg, to consider establishing a recycling program which is accessible to all residents of Winnipeg regardless of whether they live in a house, townhouse, or apartment; and
"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly urge the provincial government to consider introducing a comprehensive province-wide recycling program, which will be fully accessible to all residents of Manitoba whether or not they reside in urban, rural or northern area."
Motion presented.
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Mr. Dewar: I looked forward to the debate this afternoon on this resolution. It is important that we in this Chamber, as members of this Chamber, debate environmental issues. So I am very pleased to bring this one forward. It is very similar to a resolution that we debated in this House in April 1996, exactly two years ago.
That particular resolution dealt with the exclusion of apartment dwellers in the city of Winnipeg from any recycling programs. We feel that it is important that we re-emphasize our commitment to this very important issue. We find that it is unacceptable that 30 percent of the population in the city of Winnipeg, approximately 90,000 Winnipeggers, do not receive any recycling services.
I was just speaking, Madam Speaker, with a young man who is relaying to me his story. In fact he lives in an apartment block here in the city of Winnipeg, and he says if he wants to recycle and which he does--he collects all of his recyclables. He feels that he has a responsibility to do so. The only way that he can actually recycle those items is to take them and to put them into a blue box, take them and put them in front of a house in his neighbourhood, so the items will actually be picked up, to have the items actually picked up.
He also tells me that other individuals in his block, who again feel that they have a responsibility to recycle different items, they took some of these--they put them in a box, and they left them out on a curb in front of their apartment. Well, they were not picked up. Lo and behold these items were not picked up and they were left out there. Of course, they fell victim to the elements. They started, of course, to smell and unfortunately deteriorate. He was finally forced to take these items and deposit them in a garbage bin, where they unfortunately turned up in a landfill site.
Madam Speaker, this is the same government by the way who licensed BFI to build a landfill site outside of the city of Winnipeg limits in the R.M. of Rosser. We all remember the debate surrounding that particular issue, and that as well is going to cost the City of Winnipeg millions of dollars in tipping fees.
So, Madam Speaker, we find it is unacceptable that a significant portion of our population here in the city of Winnipeg do not have access to recycling programs--and not only here in the city of Winnipeg, also individuals who live in northern or remote communities.
Now, in the annual report of the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation, they state that about 92 percent of municipalities have signed up. Well, that is significant, I do not deny that. But there is still 8 percent of municipalities that have not for various reasons been able to sign up with the program, and that neglects a significant portion of our population that are not able to access recycling programs. This two-cent levy, we all pay it, Madam Speaker, and it applies in the last fiscal year, and I do not have the most recent annual report, but 280 million containers this levy was applied to and it had in terms of revenues close to $5.5 million.
That was as of 1997, the surplus in that fund was $5.7 million. Now we have one more fiscal year to add to this, the '97-98 fiscal year, which ended at the end of March, and based upon revenues in past years, that fund could very well be $7 million to $8 million. Madam Speaker, that is a lot of money in a fund, and we are concerned what the government members opposite have planned for that fund. We know that they have increased promotion. We have seen a few signs around the city and there are some signs on some buses, I see, and there is a nice, big sign in Selkirk actually as well promoting this program. What that does, of course, it angers individuals who cannot access the program. So we are concerned what the government is planning to do with this seven to eight million dollars that they have in this slush fund--well, I would not say slush fund. Let me take that back--what they have in this recycling fund.
I do want to refer to a concern raised with me by my colleague from The Pas in a letter that he received from the Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae). The northern communities, so far only Thompson, Flin Flon and Churchill have made claims, and they have totalled approximately $85,000. As well, he goes on to reference in the letter that in fact, based upon the per capita contribution to this program, that the North has contributed close to $170,000 to the program, but they are only receiving $85,000 back, approximately around half of what they have contributed.
So we urge the government to look at these areas, to work with the City of Winnipeg, to make the program more generous in rural and northern areas. In fact, yesterday we had a meeting with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, and they made a point that the government currently has a business plan underway for this program, and the UMM highlight the need to review municipal support payments. Basically they are saying that remote areas of this province, northern areas where freighting costs are higher, they said they would like to see maybe a sliding scale which would facilitate more Manitobans getting access to recycling initiatives in this province, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair
Getting back to this issue of the seven- to eight-million dollar fund that they have built up so far, we are a little bit concerned what this government is planning to do with that. Do you know what they have done, other levies that they have applied? In particular I want to talk about the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, which is a levy that is applied to liquor bottles, it is applied to diapers. It raises as well several millions of dollars, and it was revealed recently that the government has used this fund for partisan purposes. In fact, it was revealed that 90 percent of these grants have gone to Tory ridings; 90 percent of these grants have gone to ridings represented by the members opposite.
Now, either they have all the serious--
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): I think the member for Selkirk, in referencing the distribution of those grants, should check that in his own riding 90 percent of the applications were approved.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Sveinson): Order, please.
Mr. Dewar: I thank the minister for his input there. The reality is the only reason the government is doing this now is because we brought it to light, the fact that 90 percent of these grants have gone to the members opposite. In fact, the Provincial Auditor takes this issue very seriously and is doing an investigation into the distribution of these grants.
So, Mr. Acting Speaker, it is a concern that we have on this side of the House, and we will be vigilant. I know my colleagues on this side here, they have been out there seeking these grants and working with their groups and their communities to ensure that there is an equitable distribution of these Sustainable Development Innovations Fund grants.
Mr. Acting Speaker, we urge the government, we urge the members opposite to look at this serious issue. We know that they have made several commitments that they intend on honouring by the year 2000 dealing with endangered spaces. They are also going to double the size of hog production by the year 2000, but they have also made a commitment to reduce the waste generated in this province by the year 2000, 50 percent based upon the figures from 1988. Last time we were able to raise this, they found that they are actually not on target yet. So we urge them to listen to some of the concerns that we are raising today, that if you were to include 90,000 more Manitobans into that program by working with the city of Winnipeg to allow them to recycle their waste, that in fact would take more waste out of the waste stream and would help them reach their target. As well, it would help rural and northern Manitobans who, as we know, contribute twice as much to the program than they are actually getting back into their home communities.
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Mr. Acting Speaker, as well, of course the government is making, both this provincial government and the federal government--the levy is taxable, but not only this levy but also the levy on tires, also the most recent levy that was introduced in this province, the Used Oil Stewardship program. There is a tax on that. So the government is collecting tax on that, plus the PST is collected on that as well. The PST and the GST are collected on this levy, on the tire levy, on the diaper levy and on the used-oil levy. So the government is taxing on a tax. But I do recognize that in this case, with the 2-cent levy in the stewardship program, that the PST does come back into the program, but the GST goes to our friends in Ottawa, our Liberal friends in Ottawa.
You know, Canadians as a whole, as a country, we recycle only about 2 percent, compared to the United States, which apparently recycles 10 percent. In Japan it is as high as 50 to 60 percent of all their waste is recycled. Unfortunately, a lot of our waste ends up in landfill sites, and this is why we are bringing forward a resolution such as this to make the government realize that there is a huge segment of our population, both here in Winnipeg and remote and northern communities, that does not have access to recycling initiatives.
Mr. Acting Speaker, we hope the government will review our resolution, look upon it in a serious way as we bring it here in a serious way, and I hope that they will review the comments put forward by myself and other members and that they will, in fact, support this resolution so we can expand recycling in this province to include more recyclables out of the waste stream and get them to be used in a better manner than simply ending up in the garbage dumps, in the trash bins of our society.
With those few comments, I conclude my remarks. Thank you.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): I think, Mr. Acting Speaker, the difference between my contribution this afternoon and that of the honourable member for Selkirk is that mine may not have as much sound and fury as the honourable member for Selkirk's, but I am hoping that it will signify something by the time I am done.
The Province of Manitoba, through its Waste Reduction and Prevention Strategy has made tremendous gains in establishing sustainable systems to support recycling initiatives throughout this great province. Under this approach, recycling opportunities are being made available to all Manitobans, and they are being supported by product distributors and consumers. This strategy is consistent with the solid waste management and minimization substrategy released under the province's Sustainable Development Strategy.
Time is limited in private members' hour, for which we ministers are so grateful to be able to take part. I would like to go on for at least 30 to 40 minutes to extol the virtues of my colleague and predecessor in this job, the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), who has had so much to do with laying a groundwork for this minister to come along and finish some of the work that was begun. The groundwork has been laid for new initiatives as well, and I am extremely grateful.
I suggest that honourable members opposite and all Manitobans could look to the honourable member for Ste. Rose, the honourable Minister of Natural Resources, and probably will do so as history unfolds, and say thanks to that honourable member of the Legislature, we are well served to face the future in a very sustainable way. [interjection] I said I could go on for a long time about that, and indeed I could, but humble and modest minister that he is, he would probably be the first to suggest that I get on with the meat of the matter.
Mr. Acting Speaker, beginning in 1994, plans were being laid for the introduction of the Manitoba Product Stewardship Program, otherwise known as MPSP. This program provides up to 80 percent of the cost of municipal recycling programs.
An Honourable Member: Eighty percent of the cost. Wow.
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Acting Speaker, 80 percent. The results of this program over the past three years, since receiving legislative assent in March 1995, have been impressive. Today over 90 percent of Manitoba's population now has access to multimaterial depot or curbside recycling services. For those who did not hear, 90 percent. Both these accomplishments have exceeded the most optimistic expectations considered possible in 1994.
An Honourable Member: Does the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) know about this?
Mr. McCrae: I dare say, some of this material, some of this information may have been lost on the honourable member for Selkirk, who has more to add to the discussion.
As a result of municipal commitment to waste reduction and recycling and the funding partnership made available through the MPSP, there are now over 144 municipalities participating in the program, with 100 percent of municipalities with a population of 5,000 or more having established multimaterial recycling systems. Municipal recycling programs have recovered over 74,500 tonnes of recyclable materials in the first three years of the program. Municipal recycling programs are now delivering over 32,000 tonnes of material annually. This represents over 40 percent of the available materials in the residential waste stream, and these materials include aluminum, glass, steel, PET No. 1, and the high-density polyethylene No. 2 plastic containers, newspapers, flyers, magazines, boxboard, corrugated cardboard, telephone directories, milk cartons and drink boxes. These materials represent over 85 percent of the available recyclable materials in the residential waste stream.
Since its inception, the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation has paid out over $9.8 million in recycling support payments to municipalities for recycling collection and processing services.
Through the multisectoral approach to the development of Manitoba's Product Stewardship initiatives, involving representatives of Manitoba business, national industry associations, municipal governments, environment organizations and consumers, a made-in-Manitoba solution to recycling has been developed. The key challenges facing us today are to increase citizen participation and to maximize the diversion of recyclable materials.
You might be interested to know, Mr. Acting Speaker, that the Manitoba solution is one that is garnering interest from across the nation. Manitoba's commitment to the concept of distributor responsibility for product stewardship, established in the 1991 WRAP Strategy Report and given legislative authority in The Waste Reduction and Prevention Act, continues to gain the confidence of the public and of business, small and large, local and international.
Manitoba has demonstrated that successful product stewardship programs can be implemented. A strong foundation has been established for exploring further opportunities for extended producer responsibility in this province. Across the nation, provinces and industry are looking at what Manitoba has achieved. With multimaterial recycling systems facing critical financial difficulties in Ontario and elsewhere, they are looking to Manitoba to see what we have done and what has been accomplished.
It is a pretty good place to be in, our province of Manitoba, and we are proud of our achievements. We are very mindful of the challenges that remain and that which remains to be done. The honourable member's resolution identifies an area where I think that work can be done, and the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation is working towards the types of results the honourable member is looking for. [interjection]
Honourable members have a fixation about money, you know. Mr. Acting Speaker, is it not interesting it is always other people's money that they are interested in. I remember Roland Penner used to sit over there, and as a new member of this Legislature I remember shouting--I sat where the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) sits today, and I remember shouting to Roland Penner, Roland, get your hands out of the pockets of Manitobans, and this incensed him to such an extent that Roland Penner spoke for 40 minutes to explain why he felt it was appropriate that he have his hands in the pockets of his fellow Manitobans. I really had trouble with the concept then, and I still do.
I say, however, let those who are involved in creating pollutants be involved in creating programs that will take care of those pollutants in an appropriate way. Consumers share some responsibility in this area, obviously, and they, too, have a role to play, but I am always amused by honourable members opposite who always want to know about money. We know where they stand on balanced budgets; they are not in favour of such concepts. To them, that is exactly what they are: concepts. To us, they are a reality four years in a row, and we are proud of that.
At the same time that we are bringing in balanced budgets, we are also cleaning up our environment and doing a good job at it, too, thanks to people like the honourable member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), and to whatever measure I can contribute myself and all of my colleagues.
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New initiatives, Mr. Acting Speaker, such as the used oil, oil filters and container stewardship program, which was launched in March of this year, continue to show leadership in the waste management area. Components of the Oil Stewardship program have been harmonized with provincial programs in Saskatchewan and Alberta to maximize the efficiency of interprovincial trade. I am proud of that achievement begun by my predecessor and brought to this point by the Department of Environment and all of our partners under my stewardship. I am very proud of that. It is something I am going to be happy to tell my grandchildren about if my children ever get around to producing any.
While the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation has helped support the tremendous expansion of recycling activity in Manitoba, we must continue to be diligent in ensuring that the program is meeting, and continues to meet, public expectations. The basic fundamentals of the program have proven to be sound and have yielded tremendous progress in recovering materials from the waste stream. A comprehensive public evaluation of the multimaterial stewardship interim measures regulation and the Products Stewardship Program was undertaken in February of this year. This review process showed that stakeholders were satisfied with the regulatory framework and supported the achievements and fundamental components of the stewardship program.
Now, to get to the nub of what was raised today by the honourable member, the pith and substance of what we are about here today, Mr. Acting Speaker, the issue of the City of Winnipeg recycling program expanding to multifamily residences is one that has been identified for further development by the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation. The program has been designed to allow local governments, including the City of Winnipeg which is a local government, the ability to design recycling systems to meet their specific needs. In the city of Winnipeg, over 22,000 tonnes of recyclable materials are diverted from landfill annually through their recycling system.
Apartment residents have access to recycling opportunities through a city-wide depot system. Expansion of the city recycling program to include improved multifamily services will be discussed as part of the MPSC's revised business plan. So the honourable member, in a sense, his resolution is a welcome one, although some of the language in it is just simply not acceptable, so I cannot really go along with accepting it in the way that it is written.
But in principle the honourable member is on the right track. He wants to see more of all the good things that he has been seeing from this government which makes me wonder what he is doing sitting over there. Why does he not come over to this side of the House where he can make an even more meaningful contribution to his fellow Manitobans and specifically his constituents in Selkirk?
An Honourable Member: We are going to be over there soon enough, Jim, not by changing parties, but by an election.
Mr. McCrae: I have to confess, Mr. Acting Speaker, I made that invitation without consulting individually with my colleagues on this side of the House, so the honourable member might want to check with some of my other colleagues on that as well.
An Honourable Member: You need not ask. We are shoulder to shoulder; we are boulder to boulder. We act like one unit on this side.
Mr. McCrae: Belly to belly and chin to chin. I am just so grateful to have the support of the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) on this latest initiative of mine which is to invite the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) to come on over and work with us more closely than he has in the past.
The Manitoba government has provided the necessary tools and established the criteria for taking on the challenge of multifamily recycling in the city of Winnipeg, funding and technical support. Honourable members opposite asked about money. Funding and technical support are available for this purpose through the MPSP. The City of Winnipeg is also a member of the MPSC board of directors, and as we go forward the Department of Environment will continue to monitor the situation closely and facilitate the process to the degree possible.
In short, since the clock is going to bring an unhappy end to my contribution today, Mr. Acting Speaker, the honourable member is on the right track. [interjection] Well, again, I am invited to pass this resolution, but if you read through the fine print, there is a certain unfriendly tone apparent in the resolution, and I do not think that that is the spirit that we are all in here today. I thought we were on more friendly terms.
As a matter of fact, when you strip away the unfriendliness and the rhetoric that you find in some of our New Democratic resolutions, there is a little kernel of something in them, and in this particular one there is a little kernel. But the point is the thing is already starting to blossom. In terms of our efforts, it germinated a long time ago, and thanks to efforts of members on this side of the House, we are making progress.
We acknowledge that more progress needs to be made. The Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation knows that, realizes that and keeps on working with its partners to bring about even more reduction of articles in our waste stream and, in the process, creating opportunities for environmental industries. Business people are finding out more and more that good environment practices are better and better business all the time, and that is what sustainable development is also about. So I am very pleased to participate in the discussion today. We will ask the honourable member next time to come and talk to us. We will get a resolution like this one, and we will get it passed in this House too.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would just want to say, I always enjoy following the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), and I can assure him that the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) will be sitting on that side, probably within about a year, year and a half, along with the rest of our caucus when we form government. So I appreciate he is recognizing the times they are a-changing.
I also want to say to the minister as well that, you know, in terms of kernels of wisdom here, if he wishes to suggest an amendment that would make the passage of this resolution possible, I would be more than willing. I know our critic would be. In fact, if he has problems and I assume it is not with any of the RESOLVEDs, it is the WHEREASes, I would suggest we could delete probably a number of the WHEREASes. I mean, they are, I think, fairly accurate statements, but I just remind the minister, the operative portion of this is a very positive suggestion put forward by the Environment critic for the New Democratic Party, the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar).
I want to say as well, this is something I am hearing directly from my constituents. I appreciated, by the way, the trip down memory lane that the member for Brandon West took us on, talking about Roland Penner. I actually just saw him about half an hour ago, quite frankly, and it is interesting because he talked about hands in people's pockets. Well, right now one of the concerns that Manitobans have about the 2-cent levy, particularly in my constituency, is not that it is not being paid; they know it is coming every time they get a can of Coke or a two-litre bottle of Coke or any kind of--well, I see the former Minister of Environment has just paid his 2 cents.
You know, the fact is--and we are talking about our two cents worth here, Mr. Acting Speaker--that money is being taken out of many communities and is not being returned to the degree it should in the way of recycling.
Now, I want to give you an example of northern Manitoba, and the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) has raised this issue. This is an issue of concern to people in my constituency. I know it is a concern in the Flin Flon constituency as well, because essentially there have only been three communities able to access the Product Stewardship Corporation, and that is Thompson, Flin Flon and Churchill.
In Thompson, we have had difficulty in maintaining a curbside recycling program, and I appreciate--I had some discussions with the previous Minister of Environment on that, and I thought he had some very productive suggestions. By the way, they are attempting to get it going again, which is very positive.
But, just to put it in perspective, according to the Minister of Environment's (Mr. McCrae) own letter, signed January 6, 1998, northern Manitoba, about $170,000 is collected from northern communities on a per capita basis. They are putting back a total of $84,000. There is a distinct difference between the amount of money that is coming out of the North and being returned. It is the same thing, I know, I am sure in the Interlake. Many communities do not have access to recycling. I am not sure what the situation is in Selkirk, but there are a lot of people out there paying this 2-cent levy and are not having the opportunity to have direct access to recycling.
It is fine to talk about having recycling depots. We have depots in my own community, but I can tell you that, if you want to maximize the amount of recycling, you have to have it curbside. You also have to have it curbside for another reason. If you are concerned about the environment, think of the fossil fuels that are consumed, the gasoline that is consumed driving to these depots.
I have heard people suggest--I mean, you have to be careful, you know, to be cognizant, not only of the costs financially, but of the environment costs of going and accessing facilities that are some distance away from your own home.
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I want to go one step further because I know I discussed this with the previous minister, member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), about the apartments. Apartment recycling is a concern in Thompson. We looked in our community trying to get our volumes up; we have a significant number of apartments in our community and a number of high-rise apartments which, I think, are prime targets for recycling pickup, curbside recycling.
By the way, I want to say to the current Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae) that the former Minister of Environment is very open-minded on that and actually had suggested that perhaps what needs to be looked at are some pilot projects that look at that. I want to put on the record, I would suggest that we consider that for Thompson, a smaller community, fairly definable in terms of areas where you have a significant number of apartments. I want to say to the current Minister of Environment, if he wants a positive suggestion, let us have a pilot project for the community of Thompson for apartment recycling, something I know the previous minister was very interested in.
I could tell you--well, I do not want to give away private conversations, but I am trying to give the previous minister credit, and I say to the Minister of Environment, let us live up to the spirit of this resolution. Let us adopt a pilot project. We can prove it will work. I say the money is there. The 2-cent levy is coming in. I say to the minister, why do we not even extend it? Why do we not pick Thompson, how about Brandon and Winnipeg? Let us pick three--now I think I have got the minister's interest. It is funny how you mention Brandon, and the Minister of the Environment sort of gets interested in things. I do not say that as a criticism, but I would suggest that we look at this, this 2-cent levy that we are putting in, and be far more creative in the way that we dealt with it.
I would also suggest another series of differences in the way we approach this, Mr. Acting Speaker. I think one of the things we have to do in this province is have a vision, an environmental vision. I think we have to adopt that not only as a province but at each municipal level.
I have seen examples, and I know the member for Selkirk will be aware of this, of many communities that have declared themselves green communities. And they have accepted it is not just a good idea, for example, to have recycling; it is a matter of public policy that as municipalities they will do absolutely everything possible to increase the degree of recycling and environmental consciousness in their community.
I want to suggest that because, you know, one of the problems we had in my own community with recycling was what? The problem was when you went out and you just sort of said, well, if you are interested, we could put blue boxes out. You know what? People had to pay a deposit for it. I suggested instead of having to pay to recycle, you should be encouraging people. Let us learn from the market system a bit here. Give them a bit of an incentive. The people that recycle in my community do not fill up the landfill; the people that do not, do.
Why not give some incentives and why not go one step further? I have also suggested in my community, and we should do this, I think, on a local basis. You want to get things happening in my community, I can tell--you go to the Rotary Club, you go the Lions, you go to the Kinsmen, you go to the Legion, you go to community service organizations. And if you went to them and got them involved as part of the process and said, we want to get our entire community involved in recycling because it is good for the community, you know what, I think they would accept that challenge.
That is one suggestion that I would make, by the way. We build up quite a revenue pool here from the minister's department. We have a bit of a bureaucracy in place, and they are doing their job. I am not criticizing then, but you know the best way to get things involved is when government works with community. I suggest to members opposite: Why not start on recycling? Why not go beyond saying, you know, we have this fund here? Why not let us go to each community and say are you interested in a green vision and an environmentally conscious community, and if you are, let us get everybody involved; get the service clubs.
For example, you want to go one step further in how this could happen, why are we not giving, say, an incentive to service clubs in communities to go and sign up more people on the blue boxes? I will tell you right now, the higher the percentage of people who are recycling, the higher the percentage of intake, the more feasible and viable the system is. You know, why not go to each community and say any one of the communities who are interested in recycling? I look at Thompson, any communities in the Interlake, why not say to any service club that is interested: we will pay the service club $5 for every person that signs up for recycling. You know, I tell you that would be enough of an incentive. I see service organizations, sports clubs, whoever, out there trying to raise funds, they are selling this, they are involved with that and the rest of it. Why not perhaps take a leaf of what works in communities?
We all know what works in our communities whether it be in the city or in other areas. [interjection] Or Elks, I am sorry, I forgot the Elks, must not forget the Elks, very active part of many communities, but you know they have built many of our seniors facilities in co-operation with government. They have built many other types of facilities. They offer many community service projects and I hope the member is of the Elks Club, not other kinds of elk, by the way, because I do not want to hit any sensitive elements over there--
An Honourable Member: Not captured though.
Mr. Ashton: Not captured though. You are a real Elk, well, figuratively speaking.
In communities, I think, we can start that process, and I would suggest to the minister and I commend the minister by the way. I mean I remember when the minister was a Minister of Health, he came to Thompson when I have invited him up to meet with people concerned about the conditions in our hospitals due to government cuts. I give him credit. I know the minister has been willing to do that in the past, and I think that is very appropriate.
I say this bit of advice to another Minister of Health at the current time, you do not duck meeting with the public. You face the public, because you can run but you cannot hide from them because eventually you run into an election. If you keep trying to hide from them, you do not get re-elected. It is a simple political truth.
I know there are members opposite that subscribe to that, too. I am sure there are many members opposite who privately would agree that it was a major mistake to duck facing the people on health issues. I am only referencing this, Mr. Acting Speaker, because the Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae), when he was Minister of Health, I saw him at a meeting on the privatization of home care with 500 angry Winnipeggers who told him a piece of their mind. What it has got to do with the environment is he should follow what he has practised in previous portfolios.
I suggest right now--and I will put this out as an open invitation. I would like to invite the Minister of Environment to come to Thompson to discuss the environmental concerns of Thompson and to put in place--I would like to put on the record that I would like to see Thompson be the model of recycling in this province. We could start with a pilot project on apartment recycling. I think it is possible. We have got the community spirit. We can get the will.
So I get back to this resolution, Mr. Acting Speaker. If the government wants, we will, I think, accept as a friendly amendment taking out all the WHEREASes. We will take out all the WHEREASes which would leave us with what? Be it resolved that--just checking to make sure we have not taken too much out here, but therefore be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government working in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg to consider establishing a recycling program which is accessible to all residents of Winnipeg regardless of whether they live in a house, townhouse or apartment, and be it further resolved this Assembly urge the provincial government to consider introducing a comprehensive province-wide recycling program which will be fully accessible to all residents of Manitoba whether or not they reside in an urban, rural or northern area.
There is nothing in that resolution, in the RESOLVED, that could not be adopted by all members of the House, and I would like to suggest right now, Mr. Acting Speaker, we are willing to accept as a friendly amendment, following the spirit of the Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae), taking out all the rest of the resolution and then unanimously adopting the RESOLVED portion.
Mr. Cummings: Mr. Acting Speaker, I want to pick up on the spirit of the discussion this afternoon. I mean, it is true that this is a very unique program in Canada and one that is, in fact, being watched very closely by a number of jurisdictions as a better way of getting recyclables out of the waste stream.
When the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) makes his impassioned plea to have Thompson seen as a pilot, or Thompson along with a number of communities as a pilot, I am not going to dispute the validity of his concerns. But let us be very clear in something that has not really been put on the record this afternoon. This program, whether you agree with the principle or not, but one of the founding tenets of this program was that the collection of waste products from household waste, in particular, was a municipal responsibility, so this fund was set up to support the municipalities in their recycling efforts and not have the Province of Manitoba or any other provincial organization who might choose to mimic this be the responsible body for running the recycling program. The return-to-deposit programs are mandated by provinces, but they do not necessarily run the programs. They are run by designated authorities and/or agencies within the jurisdiction.
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So let us go back to that basic tenet, and it is true that the MPSP is now developing a fairly significant reserve. That is also by design, Mr. Acting Speaker, because the known volatility of the recyclable materials is so wide, the range is so wide, that the MPSP organization has to have the ability to respond to the price swings.
That may well be one of the problems that is facing recyclers as a whole across the province right now, and that is the downswing on some of the more valuable products that they have been putting into the marketplace. At $118--I believe it is--to $152 a tonne across the province depending on the location, 152 was the dollars that were put out by the MPSP. Then a subsequent bid came in directly to the City of Winnipeg, which was for something less than the amount that was available.
The numbers are not entirely the nub of this argument this afternoon. The real important part of the question is whether or not we can have a multimaterial recycling program funded by the consumer who buys the product. This is not tax dollars. This is a levy that goes specifically into the MPSP, which is an arm's-length organization which is outside of government. Government does not even keep the additional PST that may be attracted where the levy is on the containers. All of that money as well is granted to the MPSP, so that that money can go to recycling.
But, in developing the fund, the MPSP now has the onus to make sure that those dollars are returned to the system to make the system as viable and as aggressive as possible. So the problem that we face with the development of recycling for apartment blocks is whether or not the responsible municipal jurisdiction is prepared to develop a system within their boundaries that allows and, in fact, encourages the collection of those recyclables.
I want to tie that back to the uniqueness of this program, whereby we are not talking about just the collection of beverage containers. We are talking about the newspaper collection. We are talking about the metal waste from our kitchens and from our household, so we reduce our household waste by a much more significant margin than we would with a simple return-for-deposit program.
I would like to put on the record in support of comments made from both sides of the House, that we need to work with the MPSP and we need to encourage the municipalities where they are floundering, in some cases, in developing their municipal recycling collection program. They are floundering inasmuch as they have not been able to appreciate in some cases the fact that the amount of money that they are saving by diverting volumes from their landfill is also money that may in fact need to be paid to the recyclers. In other words, this was an 80/20 program; 80 percent from the MPSP fund, 20 percent from the municipality, the balance of the revenue coming from the sale of the recyclable products.
That formula may well need to be re-examined. I know the MPSP board is constantly doing this, but we need to make sure that we keep that in balance and that we keep it within the mandate of MPSP so that the municipalities continue to accept the responsibility. Specifically speaking of the City of Winnipeg, I know that they are interested in getting into this aspect of recycling within their city. I know that they were afraid of tying into a pilot project that would have lingering and ongoing expensive problems for them, but I do not intend to stand here and condemn any municipality, but to encourage them and to say what this government has always said: We are willing to work with the MPSP and the municipalities to make this one of the most comprehensive recycling programs in Canada, if not in North America, when we consider the opportunities that are associated with this program.
I would like now to let my colleague from River Heights close with a couple of comments.
Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I would like to take this opportunity to put a few humble words on the record with regard to this issue as well. I think my honourable colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), who just spoke before us, really put his finger on the nub of the problem. I think colleagues opposite are confusing the laudatory aims of this concept with the application, and in fact I think it was the Honourable John Crosbie who was here in Winnipeg recently, who said that socialism brings suffering to a new height and, in fact, members opposite have that difficulty because what they want to do is they want to take over every single activity, every single enterprise. They want a hands-on control of everything, and their motion today just reflects this. Rather than having an independent body, the product steward committee administering this program, or at least giving the municipalities the discretion to have an ambit of activity themselves, but not so. Members opposite want to impose their will and their view of rightness on everybody, and therefore--[interjection]
Mr. Acting Speaker, I think if we encourage municipalities, if we encourage our citizens to follow recycling--[interjection] Absolutely, the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) says use the carrot and not the stick. Members opposite are too quick to pick up the stick and to force their way into things; instead, there should be education. I can tell members opposite if you drive up and down the streets of River Heights on any given day, you know what you see on the boulevards or in the back lanes of River Heights? Blue boxes, because--[interjection] That is right, there are blue boxes in River Heights.
Mr. Acting Speaker, I think one of the most important concepts that should be woven into this program is individual self-reliance, and we are told that there are six depots here in the city of Winnipeg where apartment dwellers can take their refuse. I happen to be one individual who actually is not only involved in recycling, but I am a firm and vigorous component of composting. I would assure members opposite that you can reduce household waste down to about 10 percent of the volume. If you recycle and if you compost--[interjection] Oh, yes, composting is a very important feature. In fact, the tipping grounds in--[interjection] Oh, no. I have been composting for a significant length of time, and this reduces the waste that any household produces.
Mr. Acting Speaker, you do not need big government to go out and spend a fortune on this sort of program. This should be something that is done household by household, person by person, compost bin by compost bin, and the same thing with recycling--[interjection] The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) is trying to cast imprecations upon the humble member on this side of the House here. The thing is there has been an independent process created in our province, and we are financing it, and as the honourable member before me said--
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Sveinson): Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs will have 11 minutes remaining.
The time being six o'clock, this House is adjourned and stands adjourned till 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday).