Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to revert to committee changes?

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave to revert to Committee Changes? [agreed]

Mr. McAlpine: Madam Speaker, the composition of the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: The member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the May 20, 1997, 7:30 p.m. meeting.

Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections for 7:30, Tuesday, May 20, be amended as follows: The honourable member for Niakwa for the honourable member for Gimli. Agreed?

An Honourable Member: That is agreed.

Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered.

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Mr. McAlpine: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: The honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for May 20, 1997, 3 p.m. meeting.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, I wanted to continue with a couple of questions relating to the Worker Advisor Office. The minister mentioned yesterday that he had--there was a seconded person working for his department, a person coming from the Justice department and he mentioned the name. It was Irene Kavanagh. I am still not clear on the purpose of why Ms. Kavanagh would be coming from the Justice department to receive some training within the Worker Advisor Office, and I am wondering if the minister could provide for me some further explanation on that type of secondment.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Mr. Chairman, and I do not have a lot more information than I put on the record yesterday. My understanding was that we had a vacant staff year, and I believe this individual was looking toward government for some change or new challenge and arrangements were made between my department and the Justice department for this individual to come forward and join the staff in the Worker Advisor Office. I do not think permanent arrangements have been made yet, and, as the individual gains experience, I think we will make a determination, and supervisors will make the determination, whether this develops into a longer-term situation or not.

Mr. Reid: I can understand if there was a vacancy and the minister felt that he needed to bring the staff complement up to its regular level, but I did not get that sense from the minister yesterday when he was responding to my question, that this particular individual would be working with the department after the training period had expired and that perhaps the individual may be going back to the Justice department.

I am just trying to get an understanding here. If you are bringing the individual in for some training that would facilitate perhaps a resolution of the matter that I raised with the minister yesterday when matters proceed to the courts, and some people in the Justice department need to have that sensitivity to these cases that would go before the courts, with respect to either Workers Compensation or Workplace Safety and Health issues, then I can understand that. But, if that is not the case, then I would like to have some detail on why that person is there and for what purpose? Are we getting best use of those monies if we are bringing someone in to train who is not going to be utilizing that experience or that particular training? That is why I am asking the minister the question.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think what I hear the member saying is, is this an appropriate way for somebody to gain additional experience if in fact the individual and the departments involved are not prepared to make this a permanent relationship? I think that this is not an unusual occurrence to happen within the civil service, and, maybe, when we get into the discussion of the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission, we can have further discussion of that. There are many times, it is my understanding, within the civil service, that people are looking for new opportunities and new challenges, and efforts are made to try and accommodate these as openings occur.

So I cannot be more definitive than that, because this arrangement was made amongst the two departments involved. What the final outcome and resolution of that will be, I cannot say at this particular time. When staff within the government civil service, and sometimes even with the federal civil service, are looking for new challenges and new appointments, there is an opportunity for departments to co-operate and allow that type of experience to occur.

Mr. Reid: Are there other people within the minister's department that have come in from other departments to receive training in other areas within the Department of Labour? Are other people seconded from other departments to come into Labour to train as well?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I cannot give you a definite example, but I believe there are. When we have an opportunity to deal with the Civil Service Commission in a short while, I think that is a valid question to ask. From time to time, as I have indicated, people from one department are seconded to another department, and those arrangements are generally made with the managers within those departments.

I know that, when there are staffing changes that take place from time to time, there are people who are looking for new and different opportunities. All departments of government, from time to time, will look at individuals from other departments, and if there is a position, they can second those people to gain that experience within a new department.

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Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister is right then. If this is more appropriately dealt under the Civil Service Estimates, then we will leave that over to that when the minister may have staff available to him to assist with the reasons why that decision was made. It is my understanding that when you bring staff in, you second staff to come in, it is usually to fill a role or a vacancy where work needs to be done.

Yes, they get training at the same time, but it also provides for some--because there is some requirement within the department. I do not get the sense here, from what the minister's answers have been, that the particular individuals coming in to play a particular role, other than training which, to me, seems to be different than what past practices have shown to be the case. That is why I raise--and perhaps the minister wants to provide some further explanation, if staff can provide him with the answer.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I just say again, it is not an uncommon occurrence within the civil service for somebody from one department to gain some experience in another department. I gather from the tone of the member's questions and comments that he is opposed to having people from another department get some experience and be seconded to another department.

I do not think we are breaking new ground here. This is something that has happened over the years and, if my honourable friend is not aware of that, I would be pleased to get some statistics put together to examine how many secondments occur within a calendar year for him. But we are not pioneering a new idea here. This happens from time to time that people take on a challenge with a new department, and in this case it is not an unusual occurrence.

Mr. Reid: All right. We will leave that over to the Civil Service Commission and let some further questioning take place in those Estimates.

Can the minister tell me, were there any individuals seconded out of the Worker Advisor Office over the course of the last year, perhaps to other departments or to other areas of government operations?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, there were some other changes. My understanding is there is one individual who is now with the Ombudsman's department and another individual who was in Employment Standards and has moved to the Worker Advisor Office.

Mr. Reid: So I take it that these individuals then, are they still with the department? Are they there for training or have they moved back to the departments from which they were seconded, and were there any others that perhaps may have been working more directly with the minister?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that this was a career change made by these individuals.

Mr. Reid: Were there any other individuals working in other than branches of the Department of Labour, perhaps more directly with the minister, who may have been seconded from the Worker Advisor Office in the past year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we had one individual from the Worker Advisor Office who did some work with government, relative to the Workers Compensation Board.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me how long those individuals were seconded from their departments, including the one who was seconded to work on cases for the minister? I take it that is what it was for.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The individual referenced, who was doing the work on the Workers Compensation Board issues, was for a period of about three months.

Mr. Reid: And the other individuals were seconded for how long from their departments, there are two other names you mentioned?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the one example I used, and I refer to these as career changes, left the Worker Advisor Office, won a competition and is now with the Ombudsman's office.

Mr. Reid: I am sorry. I misunderstood the minister and his earlier explanation.

Can the minister tell me, there was an individual who had some dealings, involvement with the government as a part of the labour group, a Mr.Tesarski. Is Mr. Tesarski working with your department or other government departments that you may be aware of?

Mr. Gilleshammer: No.

Mr. Reid: So then Mr. Tesarski does not have any current employment status with either your department or the government?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is no.

Mr. Reid: If there is a competition, would those competitions be dealt with, I guess, under the Civil Service Commission, if Mr. Tesarski was to apply for one of those jobs? It is my understanding that he may be working for the Department of Labour now. The minister has said, no, that is not the case. So are there competitions that are open currently within the Department of Labour for jobs that may be vacant?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not sure what the question is. You asked if this individual was working for the department, and the answer is no. Then you were asking if he won a competition. Obviously, he has not. This individual, whom I have met on one or two occasions, is not employed by the Department of Labour.

Mr. Reid: My question there was just to determine whether or not because the departments, through the Civil Service Commission, do advertise for job vacancies and that perhaps the individual may have been a successful applicant on one of those advice notices, and perhaps may not be in the employ of the department officially yet, but has been the successful applicant. That is my question here. Has he been the successful applicant for any of the bulletins or the vacancies or other jobs that are available within the department?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I repeat, he does not work for the department and, to my knowledge, has not won any competition to work for the department.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 11.2. Labour Programs (k) Worker Advisor Office (2) Other Expenditures $145,000--pass.

11.2.(m) Office of the Fire Commissioner--no funding. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Reid: I have a few questions for the Fire Commissioner's office. The minister had advised me earlier that building permit fee increases would be more appropriately addressed or questions asked through the Fire Commissioner's office, so I would like to ask the minister: Has the Fire Commissioner's office increased the building permit fees?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce the Fire Commissioner Doug Popowich, who has joined us at the table at this time. The answer to that question is, yes, there has been an increase in fees. I understand that increase was in the area of 50 percent.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, that seems to be an excessive fee hike considering the cost of living is in the range of 1.5 to 2 percent, what is the justification for a 50 percent hike in those fees?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess the cost of living is often calculated on a monthly or annual basis. These fees have not been addressed on that basis, and, as a result, from time to time, you have to do comparisons with other provinces. You have to do evaluation of the actual cost. I believe that the last change in these fees was in 1988, so it has been almost 10 years since they were adjusted. As a result, the 50 percent spans some 10 years in terms of an adjustment of those rates.

Mr. Reid: Just doing rough calculations here, that still exceeds the level of the cost of living increases over that 10-year period, 50 percent. No cost of living has gone up 50 percent in this province that I know of, and not even in Canada. So how do you justify, even over that 10-year period, a 50-percent fee increase?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, again, I think I indicated as part of my first answer that you have to do cost comparisons with other jurisdictions, other provinces. These rates are still less than what it costs to do these inspections and to have these permits in the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Reid: So then I take it that the purpose of the fee increases is to move towards full cost recovery for the work that is being performed.

Mr. Gilleshammer: One of the comparisons we do is full cost recovery. We also, as I have indicated, compared the provincial fees, which are rural fees, to the cost in the city of Winnipeg. We have made this adjustment. As I just indicated, the fees are still less than in the city of Winnipeg. So there was a discrepancy between these building permits in rural areas as compared to the city of Winnipeg. This was an attempt to adjust them upward to compare them to other jurisdictions and to look at recovering some of the costs that go into this.

Mr. Reid: Does the minister have a comparison chart that he can provide between the building permit fees of the rural areas and of the city of Winnipeg, so we can have some type of comparison between the two?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We do not have a chart with us today, but we can provide that comparison for the member.

Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister can send that along with the package of information that he has already committed to prepare and forward to me.

Mr. Gilleshammer: We would be happy to do that.

Mr. Reid: It is my understanding that the Fire Commissioner's office deals with codes and standards. There was an issue that came to my attention in my own constituency, although I am sure it is not isolated to that community of Transcona, but it was involving dwelling units that have a single door. During the course of the blizzard that we had this spring there were a number of complaints that came to my office from constituents whose homes were blocked. There was only one door permitting the residents of that building to leave or enter the building. Of course, they were attempting to leave the building but were snowed in.

Other buildings that I had noticed in the community after the blizzard, where they had two doors to allow the residents to move freely, gave the residents at least one opportunity to leave the building. My concern here is that in blizzard situations or in cold weather climates like we are living in, where you have heating appliances, furnaces, either natural gas, electric or other, heating the building, should a fire occur within the building and we have a door that is blocked, and it is a single door to that building, I suppose you can smash a window to get out if you have the strength to do that. But, if you have young children that are involved, or perhaps elderly, frail or the disabled, and you only have one door and it is blocked by snow, my understanding is that the current code allows for dwelling units to be constructed with one door.

My question is: Why was the decision made to allow one-door units to be constructed, and is there any consideration being given to alter the code to make sure that there are at least two ways, hoping that one will at least be free and passable in events such as a blizzard or other events that may occur?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that having more than one entrance and exit as part of the building code is not required anywhere across the country, not to say that my honourable friend's concern is not a valid one. I think we have made great strides in terms of fire prevention issues and education, use of sprinklers, smoke alarms, a variety of ways to enhance early warning and assist with putting fires out, but across the country there is no jurisdiction that requires more than one exit or entrance. I think if you look at the literature or the advertising, certainly, individuals are encouraged to think about this in their own home, think about how they would escape if there was a fire, train their family, teach their children, find ways to deal with an issue like that should it arise.

I had the pleasure recently of presenting an award from the Fire Commissioner's office to a teenage girl in western Manitoba who saved herself and four other children from a fire that broke out in an upstairs bedroom. I think the training that families give their children to deal with those emergencies is important, and it is not only children that we need to educate, it is all citizens. I am told that there have not been discussions within the department and with the Fire Commissioner's staff to change the regulations here that are reasonably consistent across the country.

Mr. Reid: I do not disagree with the minister. It may be consistent. I have not done the research to either prove or disprove that statement. My concern here is for what is happening within the province of Manitoba and for events that took place within my own community, that I am sure is no different than many other communities in the province. My concern here is for the safety of the very young, the elderly or the disabled that may not be able to implement an evacuation plan in a timely fashion in the event of, perhaps, that a fire should take place within a structure that only has one door.

I know you are not going to make this change, and there would have to be some consideration undertaken by the department and perhaps some consultation take place with various jurisdictions across the country, but we have a climate here in Manitoba that is different than some other jurisdictions in Canada. I do not know that all of the jurisdictions in Canada get the type of blizzard conditions that we have here. Yes, they get some snow, but they do not, from my experience, get the same type of conditions that we have here.

So I am asking here whether or not--and I take it you do some consultation with other jurisdictions across the country, various Fire Commissioners' offices across the country, you can put this on the agenda and have some discussion of this, considering the different climatic conditions that we have within the province of Manitoba and that we are charged with the responsibility of making sure the codes and standards that we have in place are safe for the people that we represent collectively in the province of Manitoba--to standardize our codes and practices with other jurisdictions, we have a responsibility, safety-wise, to the residents and to the people we represent.

So I am asking the minister, when you go to your staff or the minister attends ministerial meetings or Fire Commissioner meetings with other jurisdictions, internal to your own department, that you have some consideration for looking at the code provisions or the standards that only allow for dwelling units to be constructed with one door.

I will leave that with the minister. I know it will take some more research for the department to look at what would be a best way of ensuring the safety of our communities.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I would say that, in all of the educational material that is put out through the Office of the Fire Commissioner, it urges all individuals, families, to determine what other exits there are from a building in case that horrible eventuality should happen that your home is on fire. So this is part of the education package that is put out by the Fire Commissioner's office and used in various communities with our volunteer fire departments and with the education programs within the school system. But, of course, as I have said before, we will take all of the good suggestions my honourable friend has brought to this committee and have the department look at them.

Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that undertaking. Can the minister tell me: Are there any other fee increases that are planned by the Fire Commissioner's office for this next year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We have not had that discussion within the department or with the Fire Commissioner. As my honourable friend knows, we budget on an annual basis and, of course, it is difficult to say what changes might be recommended for another year. The member is no doubt aware that the Fire Commissioner's office is now a special operating agency, and they have an advisory board and will be looking at all of their activities, but I believe we have announced all of the fee changes that are currently in place.

Mr. Reid: Is the minister contemplating any other fee increases in other parts of his department other than the Fire Commissioner's office?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, the budget has been set for the current year, and it will probably be some months yet before we get into detailed consideration of where we are moving with our budget for next year. I expect the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) will be bringing down another good budget in the spring of 1998. My honourable friend will have to wait until that happens.

Mr. Reid: I understand that there is a budgetary process that is involved here. I am just looking to see whether or not the department has plans in place that will make adjustments to the various fees through the Department of Labour that perhaps may be implemented at a later point. It is my understanding, from other departments for which I have been the critic, fees are not always implemented at the beginning of the budget year, and some of them are held over until July 1 or September 1, as other examples proven to be the case. So that is why I am asking whether or not the department is contemplating implementing other fee changes or increases that may not have already been announced.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I believe in earlier discussions, we have made the commitment to give the honourable member detail on some of the revenue, or all of the revenue, items that were brought forward in this budget.

Mr. Reid: If the minister would then undertake to give a commitment here that should there be fee increases that are planned by the department as part of this year's budget, that he would give me some notice when he sends the package to me, giving an indication on when they plan to implement those particular changes, should there be any with respect to fee changes or increases in any of the other subdepartments, including, but not limited to, the Fire Commissioner's office.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think we have already made that commitment.

Mr. Reid: Could the minister tell me why--because looking under the Repair and Maintenance under the Fire Commissioner's office, you are assuming that the facility in Thompson will be closed effective April 1 of next near--is it the $28,000-saving that you are contemplating as the sole reason why you are closing the Fire Commissioner's office? How many staff are employed in that particular facility?

Mr. Gilleshammer: There will be no staff impact from that decision. The board made a determination that they would close that particular office, and that will be done.

Mr. Reid: Then I take it that office will be closed, as the document indicates, on April 1, '98. What is the workload of that particular office that would dictate that you can afford to close that office, and, I take it, shift your staff elsewhere, because you say the staff complement is going to remain stable.

Mr. Gilleshammer: We have two staff in that area, and we will continue with two staff. The facility--and perhaps I misled the member inadvertently--was a classroom used for training.

Mr. Reid: So the training function will no longer take place out of that office in Thompson, and those two staff will still work for the Fire Commissioner's office in that community serving the North?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that training can take place at any site. We can use existing space. We can rent if we have to. The decision was made to close that particular classroom.

Mr. Reid: So your objective then is to retract or withdraw from office space that was used to train and to house these two staff people, and your training function or component will still continue, and those two staff people will remain employed in that activity serving northern Manitoba?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.

Mr. Reid: You charge an insurance levy which is not to exceed 2 percent of the value of the premiums or the assessments with respect to property insurance. Can you give me an idea of the size of the pool of money that would be accumulated in a year, and is there an ongoing pool of funds that stays in place, or is that expended through the course of the year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe there is about $3 million added to that each year.

Mr. Reid: Are all of those funds, or nearly all of those funds, expended during the course of the year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The majority of the funds are expended during the year. At the current time, I believe there is somewhat over $5 million in the fund. Some of it will be used to finance the construction of a new training site in Brandon. I think it is about $1.5 million that is being used for that.

Mr. Reid: You are showing on your balance sheet which I take it to be the projected income statement for years, on page 59 of the supplementary document under the Office of the Fire Commissioner income statement--and it is showing successive years from '97 to the year 2000. I take it that is a projected income statement for those years. You have losses, operating losses, that appear to be fairly constant in dollars.

These fee increases that you have brought into place, you say to offset some of the losses, will that in any way, or any of the fees that you charge, offset this sheet as is shown in this document, and will those operating losses decrease?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The fee increases that we spoke of earlier have already been built into this budget and these budget projections. The Fire Commissioner's office and the training school in Brandon is endeavouring to control its costs but also to generate revenue, and I am very pleased to say that there has been interest expressed from jurisdictions outside of Manitoba to do some training, to avail themselves of the expertise available to them.

I do not know whether my honourable friend has ever had an opportunity to visit the training site, but we would certainly extend an invitation to himself and the deputy critic to come to Brandon at any time and view the site. We have the development of an additional training site that has just been announced and probably just starting. We hope to have that completed by the fall. Part of the challenge of the special operating agency has been to increase business to attract more training. I think they have an excellent track record in training men and women in this particular area.

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I am encouraged that the City of Winnipeg is considering using the facility in the near future. I am not sure it has been finalized yet, but we are working towards it. But other cities, other provinces, some of the northern states, and in fact, I believe, some countries from other areas of the world are also considering using the site as a base for training. So it is an ongoing challenge for the Fire Commissioner and his staff to provide a high level of service and at the same time recover costs for the training they provide, working with rural fire departments, professional firefighters and others to try and enhance the amount of business that occurs at the training site in Brandon.

Mr. Reid: I am happy to hear that you are making some strides to make other opportunities available to the Fire Commissioner's office and to provide expertise to other jurisdictions, which will allow the operating agency to grow.

I take it then that as more opportunities become available to provide or to share the expertise of the Fire Commissioner's office with other jurisdictions that as well could affect the bottom line on your revenue picture which will change then your operating loss picture for successive years. Until those negotiations conclude, then you will not have a clear picture, and it will have to be revised year by year to determine what your projections are on your operating losses for successive years.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. The objective, of course, is to balance the budget and even turn a profit if we can. There are many ways to invest any surplus dollars back into the college, and certainly, I believe, there are lots of opportunities out there that are being worked on by staff at the college.

Mr. Reid: I take it then that since there are operating losses and that this is not just paper numbers here, but there are real operating losses that are affecting the Fire Commissioner's office, should those opportunities not develop in the future, that the current losses are covered out of the Consolidated Fund for the government. Will the government continue to cover those losses in successive years should the Fire Commissioner's office not be successful in achieving or realizing the changes or the contracts that they hope to achieve?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the losses are covered from a pool of money that the Fire Commissioner's office has access to. But you are right, the objective is to expand the opportunities to attract more business, and time will tell whether they are successful. They are running a budget of about $4 million, and the objective is to try and bring their expenses and revenues into balance in the next short while.

Mr. Reid: Over the years that I have been here, I have received correspondence from First Nations communities, and my understanding is that it is not only First Nations communities that have volunteer fire departments, many of the rural communities have them as well. We have seen a loss of life on some of the First Nations communities in particular; at least those are the ones that stand out in mind.

What role does the Fire Commissioner's department play, or are they involved with First Nations communities, their representatives, the chiefs and band councils, to provide training to the people living in those communities? Do you have a ratio that is in place? Are there ongoing negotiations to bring so many people a year in for training, or what type of process or structure do you have in place to provide for that continual training need?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is fair to say that every community out there has some sort of fire protection. In rural Manitoba, virtually every community has a volunteer fire brigade; ones that are, at this point in time, quite well equipped and quite well trained. In addition to that, they have agreements with nearby communities, the mutual aid agreements, whereby they assist one another if there should be a fire that is in between jurisdictions or is deemed to be of a nature that assistance is required. By and large, this works very well.

The member asked about First Nations communities. They can access the same training as any other fire brigade or mutual aid district and are able to participate in training programs offered by the Fire College in Brandon. Certainly, all fire departments out there are not created equal; some have taken greater advantage of training opportunities. Some, obviously, make it a higher priority, but the training is available, can be purchased by any community within the province, and there have been a number of First Nations communities that have availed themselves of the service.

Mr. Reid: I guess the concern I would have in my mind here is that not all municipalities are created equal and not all First Nations communities are equal in financial capabilities with the various municipalities in rural Manitoba. What type of a process do you have for those communities that do not have the financial wherewithal to send their people, because they have to, obviously, from my understanding, pay a fee to send people for this particular training? What type of a process do you have to make sure that these people coming from communities that do not have that financial capability are also given the opportunity to train their people?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I am not sure how to assess the financial capabilities of First Nations communities or bands. They have their own sources of revenue, and some of it, of course, is earmarked for health, education, housing, that sort of thing. I am not just sure what priorities different bands put on it, but I am informed that the college has not turned down any jurisdiction asking for training. They have all been accommodated.

Mr. Reid: Well, I hope that the financial considerations would not be the primary objective of the department, that the department would seriously consider all the applications that are coming to make sure that people are trained, and that when they go back to live in those communities, they have the adequate training, and that the cost would not be prohibitive to prevent that training from taking place.

But I want to ask the minister another question dealing with--because he mentioned in his opening comments--the North American Agreement on Labour Co-operation, do you have that agreement available to you here today? Is it possible to get a copy of that agreement from you so that I might have the opportunity to read up on it?

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not have one personally, but we can certainly see that a copy is provided for my honourable friend.

Mr. Reid: Is that agreement now in effect, and what would be the effect? Do you have a summary or a ministerial summary on the effect of the agreement on the Province of Manitoba?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The agreement that my honourable friend has referenced was signed, I believe, in January of this year--it might have even been in this room or the one down the hall--and we can provide a copy of that for the member.

Mr. Reid: I would appreciate it. At the same time, if the minister is going to provide the copy of the agreement, if there is an executive summary that is attached to it, if one is available, he would pass a copy of that long as well, I would appreciate that.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Agreed.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 2. Labour Programs (m) Office of the Fire Commissioner, no funds--pass.

Resolution 11.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12,139,600 for Labour, Labour Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Labour is item 11.1.(a) Minister's Salary $25,700. At this point we request the minister's staff leave the table for consideration of this item.

Item 1.(a) Minister's Salary $25,700--pass.

Resolution 11.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $474,000 for Labour, Labour Executive, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

This completes the Estimates for the Department of Labour. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates of the department of the Civil Service Commission.

I do not believe we are ready to continue, so we will take a brief recess. [interjection] I guess we will not take a brief recess.