Madam Speaker: The hour being after 5 p.m., time for Private Members' Business.

"WHEREAS over 50,000 adults in Manitoba have been diagnosed with diabetes and this number is growing by approximately 4,000 more each year; and

"WHEREAS by 1991 almost 20% of Treaty Status Aboriginal women in Manitoba now have diabetes nearly four times the rate of Non-Aboriginal women; and

"WHEREAS the prevalence of diabetes has increased by over 40% amongst Aboriginal women and by over 50% amongst Aboriginal men since 1986; and

"WHEREAS the hospitalization rate for both cardiovascular disease and strokes for people with diabetes is five times the rate for those without diabetes; and

"WHEREAS the onset of diabetes is frequently related to poverty conditions; and

"WHEREAS there is an acute shortage of dialysis machines in the communities where the number of people with diabetes is growing fastest; and

"WHEREAS the number of people afflicted with diabetes in Aboriginal communities has reached a health crisis situation.

"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to consider developing an action plan and time-table for implementing a Cross-Departmental strategy for combatting this deadly disease; and

"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly additionally request that the Department of Health consider working with the Medical Services Department to priorize the installation and upkeep of dialysis machines where numbers warrant in rural and Northern communities."

That is the text of the resolution.

Motion presented.

Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, I rise this afternoon, I guess, with mixed feelings as to whether I should sponsor the resolution, move the motion to sponsor this resolution here, the resolution having to do with diabetes amongst aboriginal people, particularly in northern Manitoba. Indeed, I think some of you may be wondering why put forth such a resolution, especially in this Chamber here. The reason I say that is because whenever we bring forth issues that deal with aboriginal people, the tendency of this government is to say to us, you know, that we are of treaty status and are therefore wards of the federal government and that we should be talking to the federal government rather than impose on this forum here.

In view of that, I say that I had mixed feelings, but also there is another reason for having the mixed feelings that I do, and that is, I look at the ugly and shameful reality that exists among aboriginal people. That reality is, in this case we are talking about the state of health, but we could be very well talking about other areas such as the socioeconomic conditions of aboriginal people in general. Here we are talking about the state of health and in particular diabetes.

Madam Speaker, it sickens me every time I hear and read a report that talks about aboriginal people, because we have had so many reports now. More recently, we have had the royal commission on aboriginal affairs, which was a very expensive undertaking and quite comprehensive and so therefore would have pretty far reaching and comprehensive recommendations. So far the federal government has refused to even talk about it, and by now other distracters have been busy trying to convince each other that to implement even some of these recommendations in the commission report would be too costly. Besides, this report deals with aboriginal people, and we can get away, just as we have in the past, to not listen to the report and then shelve it and nothing will come of it and nobody will say anything and there will be no political embarrassment for anybody because nobody really cares.

In pretty well all aspects of aboriginal life, Madam Speaker, studies have shown, reports have shown consistently that every time a report comes out we occupy the extreme side of those statistics that are presented in those reports. So again now people are asking themselves, because I am asking myself, why do I bother bringing this resolution here? Is there an audience here? Is there an audience here that will listen? Does the audience here care enough to be able to take the contents of this resolution and implement something?

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Madam Speaker, reports by Medical Services Canada, our own provincial government, Department of Health, College of Physicians and Surgeons here in Manitoba and other provincial governments, provinces, universities, foundations have produced all kinds of reports. Do you not think that we get the picture by now? Do you not think that the time for study, time for unveiling or giving out reports is long over? Do we not see what I call the ugly reality? Do we not see the picture? Do we not understand it by now?

Accidental deaths, for example, are way, way higher than the rate for nonaboriginal populations. The Manitoba college here will tell you that. The incidence of diabetes has reached a point where a lot of people call it an epidemic, almost like tuberculosis in the early years, and we are afraid that it is going to really, really decimate and destroy our people.

Indeed, Madam Speaker, some of our people are saying to themselves that they see their mothers and fathers, their grandfathers and their grandmothers and even now their brothers and sisters who are being amputated quite regularly. Almost every person that gets hit by diabetes sooner or later gets amputated. Our people are now wondering to themselves whether this, in fact, is an experiment. Is this a government experiment? Is the government trying to find a cure for diabetes and they are practising on aboriginal people? It is true. I kid you not. This is what our people are saying, because back in the days when tuberculosis was at an epidemic stage, this is indeed what our people were saying then too.

I listen to stories from elders from my reserve who tell me that on a Wednesday afternoon a truckload of tuberculosis patients would leave The Pas hospital and be taken to the sanatorium at Clearwater Lake. Then, by Monday afternoon, about half of those people who were taken there towards the end of the previous week would be shipped home by the same truck back to The Pas, to the morgue, because they had died in a matter of less than a week.

So when all that was going on, our people started to get suspicious. They started to wonder why all these people were dying and were not being cured. So our people are saying today, you know, maybe this is what people are trying to do again, almost like what they did when tuberculosis was at an epidemic stage.

Madam Speaker, as I say, any and every report that comes out dealing with the lives of aboriginal people, we occupy that part of the report where they talk about extremes. In other words, either we are the lowest or we are the highest. Alcoholism and its effect on unborn children, you probably know, is really killing our people. We still have the lowest education in the province of Manitoba, although that is changing very slowly. We have the highest unemployment situation. Our unemployment situation does not get better even though the government, in its press releases, and Stats Canada say that the unemployment rate is getting better and better in Manitoba.

The statistics that are incorporated in those reports, Madam Speaker, do not take into consideration the 80 to 90 percent rate of unemployment that exists in all of the northern, isolated aboriginal communities. I do not think that is fair. I do not think that is right. I think the unemployment rate should tell the true story, at least in Manitoba.

And so, because we have such a high unemployment rate, poverty continues to get worse and worse. We continue to live in a lifestyle that is not conducive to healthy living. We know, we know as aboriginal people, we have to get out of that rut.

Let me tell you, we were not always in that rut that we are in today. We were well people at one time. We used our own medicine at one time. We used our own prevention programs.

As a young child growing up on a reserve, I hardly remember--as a matter of fact, I do not think I can say that I remember an elder or a person from the reserve going around in wheelchairs. We never had wheelchairs to begin with, but I do not remember even anybody walking around on crutches because his or her leg was amputated. I do not remember that at all. Why? Because diabetes was nonexistent, and so today we are faced with a situation where if we do not do anything soon, we are going to be faced with what I call having to decide whether we should go on or we should continue with what we have been doing so far--and we know that has not been working--or whether we are going to finally take some action.

We are going to finally go back to those reports, we are finally going to listen to the people, we are finally going to look at the ugly truth, the ugly reality that exists there for aboriginal people and forget about jurisdiction, forget about whether we are treaty Indians, forget about whether we come from Shamattawa where everybody seems to have given up in terms of how that community will survive. Forget about that we are Indians, you know. Think of us as people, think of us as human beings who deserve some attention, human beings, people, who deserve a chance.

So with those words, Madam Speaker, I urge all honourable members of this Legislature to pass this resolution and also to decide for themselves that this extraordinary situation requires some pretty drastic measures to correct. I thank you for listening to me.

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Hon. David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I congratulate the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for bringing this resolution forward. It provides an opportunity to share with this House, and with the honourable member, some of the well thought out approaches to this enormous challenge that we face as a province. I include all people of Manitoba in this challenge. It is not just an aboriginal challenge, but it is very clear that the victims of this dreadful disease are disproportionately aboriginal. That in itself makes the kind of challenge which perhaps can be used as a model in the way we go about addressing it because that is just one of the special needs that the aboriginal people in this province have. It is going to require the best wisdom, the best science, the greatest collaboration and the greatest amount of good will that we can muster in order to make headway in significant ways with the challenge.

The resolution, Madam Speaker, is pretty accurate in the preamble in the first four paragraphs that those statistics coincide with my researched knowledge of the issue. The source of some of this data has been, of course, the Department of Health itself and the people throughout the medical community and the community at large and the aboriginal community in particular who have played a role in developing an approach. One of the starting points was a diabetes symposium that was held on Tuesday, June 25, at the St. Boniface Research Centre, which event 127 people from government and nongovernment and corporate sectors, hospitals, community clinics, regional health authorities and aboriginal communities attended.

Growing out of that event was another event that took place more recently, and I had the good fortune to represent the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) at an event held in downtown Winnipeg on January 31, 1997. This was entitled the Aboriginal Diabetes Consultation. It was held at the Lombard Hotel and it was a follow-up to the symposium June 25, 1996. It was sort of a workshop format and a consensus was reached at this symposium that the province develop a provincial diabetes strategy that would be co-ordinated and facilitated by the Diabetes Unit of Manitoba Health.

The purpose of that symposium was to formalize the consultation process with the aboriginal community for the development of a provincial diabetes strategy. At this particular event 61 people from aboriginal communities, government and nongovernment sectors attended the day-long session.

The co-operation at that meeting was demonstrable, and I know that one of the most respected elders, Frank Wesley, was there, and he himself, of course, is a person who is a diabetes patient. He is also an elder who is closely related to the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs as an elder drawn on by them from time to time. He is a person who commands considerable respect and is very much involved in this strategy.

The initiation for this whole process goes back to 1994 when the Diabetes Burden of Illness Study was initiated by the Diabetes and Epidemiology Units of Manitoba Health, and the ongoing longitudinal study from 1986 and onwards defined the incidence and prevalence or diabetes and its complications among the people of Manitoba. This is unique to Manitoba. It is the only one of its kind in Canada, so we have a very significant body of research which is a firm foundation for a very, very well-thought-out strategy.

I am concerned that my honourable friend the member from The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) did bring in some emotion, and I would say some negativity to the process. I think this is one very, very positive opportunity, and it certainly is one that we can work together with certainly the representatives of the North on the other side of the House and the members in government and the broader communities that I have described. We can and will make progress. The will is there in government.

The point that has been made that this is a status-blind issue I identify with and, Madam Speaker, certainly would encourage that this not just have a federal jurisdictional kind of focus. It is not a Status Indian issue. This is on a special needs basis, a broader meaning of aboriginal population issue. It is an issue that must be addressed now, as well, because the projection trends indicate that in 20 years, the prevalence will triple in aboriginal people, from 7,322 in 1996 to 21,124 in the year 2016.

The Honourable James McCrae, the former Minister of Health, realizing the seriousness of the situation, was responsible for providing the leadership to move in the directions I have described. Under the new minister, the Honourable Darren Praznik, continuing progress is being made.

So what is the current status of this strategy? The president of the University of Manitoba, Dr. Emöke Szathmáry, and Grand Chief George Muswagon have agreed to serve as co-chairs for the Provincial Diabetes Strategy Steering Committee. One might ask why Dr. Szathmáry, with her busy schedule and heavy responsibility, would take this on, and she answered that question herself at the symposium. She has a passionate personal interest in this particular disease because of background research work that she did in Ontario. She agreed to serve because she felt she owed it to the people she came to know and to the cause which she came to understand by doing her research work with aboriginal diabetes. So she is not just motivated out of an intellectual curiosity as much as she is motivated to get results. I would believe that Grand Chief George Muswagon would also be--and I know him and I know he is there motivated to get results. I know Elder Frank Wesley is also there and motivated, Madam Speaker, to get results.

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So this is a working strategy. The first meeting of those co-chairs has taken placed and the following people have committed to the steering committee. They include Ms. Nellie Erickson, Ms. Pauline Wood-Steiman, and I know Pauline has in Island Lakes a sister who is on dialysis, another committed person--I am sure Nellie Erickson is too and Dr. Cathy Cook. A person of national renown is also involved, Dr. Lindsay Nicolle. Dr. Kue Yang, Ms. Linda Brazeau and Ms. Susan Rogers are the co-chairs of the five working groups involved in the strategy.

There are some very ambitious recommendations that are being made that involve a substantial budget, a substantial financial commitment, involve recommending a provincial diabetes program, involve administration of funding through the Public Health branch of Diabetes and Chronic Diseases Unit control, and the recommendations that are going to emerge, as I understand it, will support the implementation of recommendation of the provincial diabetes strategy.

The kinds of provisions are covering operational costs, including northern and rural consultations and travel and accommodation expenses and development of a diabetes education centre of excellence, sustainable community-based diabetes projects and resources, maintenance of the diabetes database, initiation of a diabetes surveillance system and determination of the direct and indirect cost of diabetes to Manitoba.

Now, in government, it is well known that you have to make a case and priorities have to be determined, and as I wrap up my remarks, I again highlight the seriousness of the problem, because diabetes has a high disease burden that goes far beyond diabetes itself. For example, 71 percent of newly initiated dialysis in aboriginal people is caused by diabetes, 91 percent of lower limb amputations in aboriginal people are caused by diabetes, dialysis costs in Manitoba in 1996 were more than $10 million, 35 percent of treaty status women between the ages of 25 and 44 have diagnosed diabetes.

I emphasize and I encourage all members to appreciate that increased awareness, collaboration and action at the community level offers the best hope for reductions in the incidence and prevalence of diabetes and its complications. I emphasize community based. I emphasize the collaboration. I emphasize good will. Let us work at this challenge together.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I wanted to make sure I put some comments on the record on this resolution because I believe the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) has brought, not just a resolution to this House, but a challenge. I do believe that the health crisis facing our First Nations communities, and facing First Nations people in urban communities, is something that has to be addressed by all Manitobans, all levels of government, both in terms of the specific subject matter of this resolution, that of diabetes, and in terms of the kind of appalling conditions that the member for The Pas talked about just a few minutes ago.

I want to really credit the member for The Pas for putting on the record just how much things have changed in his own time, his own recollections in terms of communities, because I find there is an unfortunate tendency at times to view things, when you have significant problems, as having always been that way.

In fact, Madam Speaker, not only was it not that way, as the member for The Pas pointed out, I know I talked to many elders, many people actually, not even elders, but many people who reflect on the fact that it is only very recently that many of the health problems that exist today amongst aboriginal people have been as pronounced as they have become. Which leads to the obvious question of why. I will give an example. I was in Split Lake recently. I had the honour of attending a brief ceremony for an elder who had just reached 100 years old, and it was interesting because, in fact, the elder is probably 107 and Sam Kitchekeesik is considered 100 by the date of the baptism certificate. He has led a very interesting life, a very good life, I might add, that he added to. He worked on the rail line for many years. It is only in the last few years that he stopped going to the trap line, much to his dismay.

What struck me is just how dramatically things have changed in the community of Split Lake. This is an elder who remembers, Madam Speaker, the signing of the treaty in Split Lake, I believe in 1908. He remembers very clearly the signing process, and he also remembers very clearly the lifestyle that existed at that time.

Just to put it in perspective, Split Lake now is not considered a particularly remote community, but the road was only constructed in 1982, so we essentially have a community that even 15 years ago was totally isolated. But it is a community that had a very traditional lifestyle, and in many ways that is still evident today. It is a community that I would say probably has a greater role in the decision-making process--from the elders, real decision-making process--than any community in northern Manitoba.

What we are dealing with when we deal with health problems, I believe, is a symptom of some of the bigger societal problems that are facing First Nations communities. I say societal problems, Madam Speaker, because we have to recognize that much of what is happening is occurring because of deliberate policies of successive governments, deliberate policies that attempted to break aboriginal culture, to break aboriginal communities, to break the spirit of aboriginal people. As a by-product--I believe some might suggest, as I know the member for The Pas referenced, there have always been suspicions that it went further--but in many ways, one of the by-products has been breaking the health of aboriginal communities.

I recommend, by the way, that those who have not had the opportunity to talk, for example, to those who suffered abuse of residential schools, there is a new book out by Agnes Grant, which I recently had the opportunity to read. It supplements, certainly, those recollections that I know many people have expressed to me directly, but when you look at the systematic attempt by the federal government, and I might say, reluctantly, by various religious orders, to destroy the language and culture of aboriginal people, something that was occurring through the residential schools until less than a generation ago, Madam Speaker, is it any wonder that we see the kind of situations occurring? I think one has to recognize, indeed, and I had a very interesting discussion with someone recently who said, you know, the interesting thing is people focus on the residential schools and the horrendous things that happen there, but some of the same elements of cultural destruction were part of schools on reserves for many years, as well.

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So it is an accident? I suggest, Madam Speaker, it is not, because if you look at the policy of successive governments, federal, provincial, there has been an attempt since the beginning of any formalized government in western Canada, first of all, to take land from First Nations people; second of all, to restrict the ability of First Nations to use the land that has traditionally been their usage; third of all, the attempt to assimilate, destroy all vestiges of aboriginal culture, and then in the long run, end up with a situation where you essentially have destroyed First Nations. I use that word--I know some people talk about it as being a genocide. Well, one only has to look at the examples of recent times. I know there will be a tendency at times to say, well, we do not want to politicize this discussion, but you know, Madam Speaker, we live in a time today when even in this election, at least one federal party, some might suggest more than one federal party, still have that same philosophy, the kind of philosophy we saw in the 1969 white paper.

We see in successive documents, internal documents, that have clearly put on the record the desire of various people of various political stripes to eliminate First Nations treaty status, to eliminate the treaties. I say this because I know there is a candidate in my own constituency, Churchill constituency, right now, who is suggesting that somehow now, decades after the treaties were signed, they should be ripped up, no return of the land involved, but ripped up, and that is why I say this is a societal problem. The health conditions facing First Nations communities were not the making of First Nations communities. They are a direct by-product of the systematic attempts by society as a whole to assimilate and destroy aboriginal culture, the aboriginal economy and the aboriginal way of life.

So, Madam Speaker, the obvious question is: Where do we go from here? I credit all those who are part of the various strategies and the studies. There is a more recent one from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada out just today which is recommending action. But you cannot deal with the question of diabetes, I believe, in isolation. First of all, I agree 100 percent with the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). You cannot treat this as a jurisdictional issue, and I say that again. Some will say I am being somewhat political, but I remember when the First Minister, during the election, said, well, we have problems with poverty but that does not really count because it is aboriginal poverty; that is a federal jurisdiction.

I remember being in the community of Nelson House, which I represent in the Legislature, where they went to the point of--I will tell you how concern was in Nelson House. They asked the Conservative candidate not to visit that community after that time because they were so offended by the comments that were made by the First minister. I do not know if the First Minister meant what he said, but I certainly know what the message was to aboriginal people. It was, well, you are not really Manitobans.

But, you know, it is ironic because, when the province wants to go to Ottawa for transfer payments, First Nations are counted, but when it comes to accepting some of the responsibility that we are all indeed Manitobans, I think that comment that was made by the First Minister speaks volumes of the government's approach. I want to go further, because I really believe that we need not only a federal-provincial approach on dealing with specific health issues, but we need to deal with the roots. Indeed I believe there needs to be a specific approach on diabetes. There is a lot that can be done in terms of lifestyle and diet and other issues. I believe that there are various things happening now. There is some good movement in that direction. I think that is fairly significant.

But you know, Madam Speaker, even then, until you deal with some of the spiritual destruction that I see, the hopelessness that many young people feel over their future, you are not going to be able to accomplish what you would like to be able to accomplish through preventative health care. I mean, it is difficult to go to people who have a sense of hopelessness and say, you should improve your lifestyle a bit here and there. Until you deal with the root causes you are going to have great difficulties.

Similarly, we can put in improved health facilities and, by the way, it is absolutely unacceptable that in northern Manitoba we have virtually no personal care homes. Whether it be in First Nations communities--there are only, I believe, one or two--but in the entire Thompson region that I represent, there is not a single personal care home. Elders, seniors, aboriginal, nonaboriginal alike have to travel to Winnipeg away from family and friends or in some cases to remote or for them remote rural communities.

If you wish to deal with the health problems you have to deal with the root problems. You have to start dealing with the chronic levels of unemployment and the destruction of traditional economic activities that we have seen in the last number of decades. We have got to stop dealing, as we have seen, with federal and provincial governments of the last decade cutting back. How do you expect people to deal with health concerns and health problems when you see, for example, the provincial government cutting back on welfare rates and the federal government matching that in First Nations communities.

When you see a federal government that has cut back unemployment insurance more than any other government in history, crippling many northern communities, taking away the livelihood of many seasonal workers--how can you deal with the root problems when you have educational programs being cut, like the Access programs. How can you deal with the root problems when young people, even if they finish high school, are having a difficulty continuing with post-secondary education. How can you deal with the root problems, the health problems when you see the despair of young people, where you see communities, and I mentioned the elder who worked on CN. I see patterns in many of the communities I represent where the grandparent worked on CN for 35 years and was proud of working on CN and trapped as well, Madam Speaker, continued the traditional lifestyle.

I see the parent, usually in their 40s or 50s, laid off from CN after 15 years and unemployed. I see the youth, Madam Speaker, with no hope or prospect of employment. I have seen this even in the last four years where virtually all the jobs have been wiped out of many Bay Line communities. What struck me with that is when I went and visited with an elder in Pikwitonei one time who had gone through that experience and the pattern I mentioned, his family pattern. What was most sad, I had to visit him on the occasion of the suicide of his grandson.

Now, people may list that as a health problem, a mental health problem. Indeed it was, there were elements, Madam Speaker, of despair that young person felt, but I think as a society we have to recognize that there is far more to it than that. If that young person had hope, would he have committed suicide? I will not end on this because I believe that we can do a lot more. We live in a country that the UN says has the best quality of life in the world. Why is it then that so many of our residents of Canada, particularly northern Manitoba and particularly First Nations, live in Third World conditions, with Third World health problems, with Third World social problems? This is a country where we should all be living in luxury in many ways.

I say it is up to us as a society now to try and turn back history of the last 100 years and start recognizing we have to work with First Nations as partners. We have to put aside jurisdictional disputes, and most importantly, we have to give hope, we have to have a vision of economic and social and personal development in First Nations communities which we generated by those communities in partnership with other levels of government.

Madam Speaker, when we have that kind of vision, I believe there is nothing in this province we cannot do in terms of dealing with any problems, whether it be the health problems or the social or economic problems. Thank you.

Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, of the vision, and we talk about the vision. I think it is interesting that we in society today have lost that vision. In looking at the aspects of aboriginal diabetes, or in terms of that issue, I think there is a bigger picture to this whole aspect.

As far as my understanding in terms of working in health and paying particular interest in what the honourable member raises today, I would like to raise this issue here. With the Midewiwin, religion was the principal spiritual path for the Ojibway. Typically, aboriginal people did not differentiate between physical and spiritual health. All aspects of the world, including plants and animals, were considered to possess real and practical spiritual powers. Midewiwin priests, both men and women, trained in healing and ritualistic medicine. Midewiwin women trainees received years of secret training, and a priest's education might not be considered complete until he had reached an advanced age.

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Much of this training involved the preparation and use of plant remedies. Today we tend to regard native medicine as quaint and superstitious, but in fact about 500 modern medicines, such as digitalis and aspirin with the white willowbark, originated in native plant remedies. Madam Speaker, when we talk about this resolution and we talk about aboriginal diabetes consultation, which was held on January 31, 1997, to continue an intersectoral consultative process with members of the aboriginal community for the development of a provincial diabetes strategy, I hope we are talking about a strategy that is something different than the strategy that we have been functioning under and looking at over the last number of years because that strategy has not worked. It has failed us miserably, and the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and his people can attest to that. I think we have to address that in a serious way.

My 14 years in terms of that I have spent looking at health and looking at it in a holistic way, and I talk about the holistic way in talking about whole foods. Whole foods are live foods, and I talk about live foods. We in society tend today to complicate the challenges rather than allow natural things to occur. We have lost that perspective on what life is. Life supports life. In wholeness we can alter those foods physically or chemically, but we cannot alter them to the point that those foods are no longer live. Our bodies need large varieties of whole live foods.

I am taking a different approach to this aspect in terms of my understanding as far as health. I do not think that we in governments, whether it be the federal government or the provincial government, that is not our responsibility as governments. I think we as individuals have to gain an understanding and trying to do the right things because I sincerely believe that we as a society have relied too much on the medical profession, so to speak, as being the know- all and end-all of all health.

That, to us, has failed because what they have studied is not about health; they studied about treating disease. Where has that got us? The honourable member for The Pas can speak about that. He witnesses that, and that is not the direction we in society should be going.

We talk about whole foods. Our bodies are made up of elements of the dust of the earth just like the elements in the soil. Plants can take the elements from the dust of the earth and convert them into whole living elements that are attached to living enzymes which are taken into our bodies in the form of food that our bodies need with the vitamins and the minerals in them. Foods that are cooked or altered chemically destroy the life force. Live foods promote life, while dead foods promote the opposite.

Promote degeneration--disease and death will follow. When you eat live foods, your body will crave live foods, and if you eat dead foods, your body will crave dead foods. The result is that we eat more dead foods, we end up as a society getting fat, because we crave, we are always hungry. It is basic common sense. Either we are overeating or we are dieting, and if you look at diet, what are the first three letters of diet?

An Honourable Member: D-I-E.

Mr. McAlpine: It is to die. When you consider that our bodies contain 75 trillion cells, and the major life force of these whole foods that make up these enzymes are the enzymes in the whole foods that we eat, that is what we call regeneration. The enzymes are the major workers of the body, and the millions of enzymes in our bodies are the chemical matchmakers for the body chemistry.

Madam Speaker, in all the seriousness of this whole aspect, there was a medical doctor, Dr. Pottinger, years ago. He did this experiment, and he used cats only because of the fact cats had shorter lifespans. I am not trying to belittle this thing by using cats, to the honourable member for The Pas, but this doctor used 900 cats. What he did was, he split them up into three groups. He fed the first group whole, live foods for four generations. He fed the second group for four generations good foods altered with vitamins and minerals as we know them, you know, chemically made. Then he fed the third group food that was dead--cooked food, dead food.

To make my point before my time runs out here, through all four generations, all those in the first group, the cats lived full, whole lives and died healthy deaths. The second group were sick by the time they reached old age and died unhealthy deaths. It got to the point when the third group, by the time they reached the third and fourth generations, the young were born sick and in the fourth generation they did not even conceive. So when you look at that and compare that to what we are doing in society today, I mean, the only thing is that we are going to end up the same way as the cats. The only thing is, it is going to take us longer to get there.

If we continue to do that, and maybe there is some comparison to the fact that the honourable member for The Pas talks about the people in the North being adversely affected. I do not know if statistics prove that or not, but it makes sense in the fact that, how are those foods sent up there? Are they sent up in forms that are not healthy? They say that 75 percent of the potatoes that are eaten in society today are either eaten in potato chips or french fries.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will have five minutes remaining.

The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).