The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber.

We are on Resolution 14.4 Citizenship and Multiculturalism (a) Citizenship (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,368,400. Shall the item pass?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Yes, I would like to say "pass." I just believe, though, I should put a couple of comments on the record in response to comments yesterday. There were two issues raised at the end of yesterday. One was the Manitoba Intercultural Council, and I had given an answer to the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) regarding the fact that we do not have plans to re-enact the act dealing with MIC. I did give him an answer.

But the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) raised two issues in relation to this. First of all, a recent meeting was held, and I suppose it is a matter of perspective of how things went at that meeting. I believe he said it was an excellent meeting, well attended, and I just feel it is important to say that, obviously, any efforts put forward by the community are important. However, my understanding of the meeting was that it probably got off to a fairly good start with about 50 or so individuals, but through the day it did dwindle significantly, I am informed, to about 30 by lunch, 15 by the end of the day. So I think I have to take the member from Thompson's comments and put them together with some reports of the day to determine in fact a little bit more about that meeting. I will endeavour to get more information on the meeting. But the answer on that issue is the same one that I gave to the member for Point Douglas, and the reasoning is the same.

The second issue that arose at the end of our last sitting was the question of the member for Thompson about whether we could in fact make, I believe it was, family class into an area of provincial responsibility. I am informed that is not possible. The reasoning behind that is that the federal government has apparently the sole jurisdiction on the classification side, and that our influence is on the labour market side. So, though I understand the basis of the suggestion, apparently it is not possible according to the way that the power is divided. However, I want to leave this on a positive note because I believe that there were a number of areas of agreement in our discussion between the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and myself yesterday. There certainly were a number of areas in which we had shared our concerns about recent changes that the federal government had made, and I do want to reiterate my commitment. One, the letter that I have written. Secondly, that I will raise the issues that we discussed again at the next federal-provincial meeting. I know the member and I will have an opportunity to talk before that time, but I think the issues were very important that he raised. I would like to leave on that positive note, because I think that is what the people of Manitoba would like to hear from us too.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I just wanted to let the minister know that I appreciated all the answers to my questions, and I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her staff for all the answers. I do look forward to some work that we have to do in the future and other events and activities that I am sure we will be crossing paths. I just would like to encourage the minister to do a follow-up on her letter, and hopefully everything will work out positively for our great province of Manitoba. I thank the minister and her staff for the answers and for this part of the Estimates.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 14.4.(a) Citizenship (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,368,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $444,700--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $1,391,600--pass.

14.4.(b) Multiculturalism Secretariat (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $84,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $47,600--pass.

14.4.(c) Multicultural Grants Advisory Council $284,700--pass.

Resolution 14.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,621,200 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Citizenship and Multiculturalism, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

As agreed we will revert to Section 14.2. as we agreed yesterday.

Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $267,100.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I am sorry, Mr. Chair, I lost track of where you were for a minute, but I think the minister wants to introduce her staff.

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you to the member for Osborne. I would like to take a moment to introduce the people who have now just entered the Chamber. Mr. Dave Paton, who has been here through the Estimates, is the acting deputy minister at the moment. This is Lou-Anne Buhr, who is the ADM of the Programs Division. I would like to introduce Ann Ryan, who is the acting agency relations manager, and Mr. Terry Welsh, who is the acting director of the Arts Branch. Those are the four staff people who are here today.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 14.2.(a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $267,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $72,600--pass.

14.2.(b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,303,400.

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Ms. McGifford: I do have a few questions to ask here. Last year the minister very carefully discussed these particular grants and programs with me, so I really do not need a lot of information, but I would appreciate if I could have a brief written statement, perhaps at some later date unless the minister wants to give it to me now, outlining which groups, agencies or initiatives receive grants in the amount of each grant. I would greatly appreciate that. Of course, if the minister wants to give it here, that is fine.

But could I ask one specific question, please? Well, I have a few specific, but first of all, under Major Agencies Operating Grants, is the Winnipeg Art Gallery included in this category?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it is.

Ms. McGifford: Then I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Winnipeg Art Gallery on many things. I certainly admire the work they are doing currently in making sure that all of their artifacts and pictures, et cetera, are safe, but I wanted to congratulate them on their free day for the public. I think it is Wednesday, and I think, as a publicly funded gallery, it is publicly responsible to be open one day when anyone can go who perhaps may not be able to afford the admission fee, and I think that certainly encourages individuals to visit the gallery and become familiar with the works in there and go to the show. So I wanted to congratulate the Art Gallery at this time.

I also wanted to ask the minister to move backwards in time for a moment, and if she could tell me if my figures are right, if the actual expenditures for 1995-96 were $10,617,200 as opposed to the estimate which I think was--maybe my figures are wrong; I have $10,879,900, but that could not be right for the estimate. I am just interested in the difference between what was actually spent and what was estimated.

Mrs. Vodrey: Could I just ask the member where she is looking to get her figure of Estimates versus actual? Is she looking in Supplementary Estimates? Is she looking in another report? Just so that we can look at where she is receiving--

Ms. McGifford: I was looking at the annual report.

Mrs. Vodrey: Just to clarify, the member was looking at the annual report.

First of all, just a response to the first question, rather than read into the record the grants to the major agencies, I will be happy to provide those numbers to the member and then she will have them for her reference.

The second question was the difference in the annual report of the estimate and actual, the difference between the actual and the estimate of the funding for the major agencies. I understand that the actual is the number '95-96 of $10,617,200, and that the estimate was $10,879,900.

Ms. McGifford: I do not have my '95-96 book here. Well, I do. Yes, in the '96-97 Departmental Expenditure Estimates, it says that the Estimates of Expenditure for '95-96 was $7,619.9 million. Is this to do with the lottery grant? I do not quite understand this incredible difference.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, moving from year to year the '95-96, '96-97, I am sorry, we are having a little trouble determining what the difference is that the member is pointing to. So I wonder if she would mind clarifying for me, please.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have the '96-97 Departmental Expenditure Estimates, Supplementary Information for Legislative Review book, and on page 31, under Grants to Cultural Organizations, I read that the Estimates of Expenditures of Grants to Cultural Organizations for '95-96 was $7,619.9 million. Yet the annual report says what was actually spent and what was estimated were in the tens of millions, and I am just wondering why. There must be some simple reason for accounting for this difference, but I do not know what it is.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the member is moving from the Operating line down to the total Grant Assistance line so she is referring to the estimate of $7,616.9 million and comparing it to total Grant Assistance, which is a total bottom line on the actual of $10,617 million, and that number also includes the capital. The $10 million also includes the capital. So the lines are not being compared across, it seems they are being compared sort of one at the top and one at the bottom.

Ms. McGifford: May I ask the minister, then, where do I find the capital in the Estimates book?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the capital line, I understand, is on page 67. It is line 14.5. So what was in here in the annual report included both lines, both in the estimate and the actual spending and then there is a total at the bottom.

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Ms. McGifford: Thank you for clarifying it. I understand it now. I will not say perfectly, but I understand it now.

Last year, in connection with the Community Initiatives line, the minister told me that in Winnipeg, Culture, Heritage and Citizenship had traditionally funded a summer camp--he told me this on June 6--and that the grant was something like, he said, $30,000 or $35,000, and that the Westman area enjoyed the same grant. I wonder if the minister could give me some details about these summer camps that are funded under Community Initiatives?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that there is the Sunshine Fund to which we contribute $35,000, and then there is the Sun Fund, which is the Westman fund to which we contribute $5,000. Then those organizations send young people to camp.

Ms. McGifford: The figures that the minister cited in last year's Estimates were $30,000 or $35,000?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed the number is $35,000 and $5,000 more.

Ms. McGifford: Last year, too, the minister, in discussing Community Initiatives, told me that this was rather an informal program and that he felt the informality was very important because he felt flexibility was extremely important in this particular program. His point was heard, although I heard it with some caution, and I am sure that this minister, like the last minister, realizes that flexibility has to be cautiously and judiciously monitored.

So I wanted to ask the minister, the current minister, does she plan to follow the previous policy of flexibility and informality, or is she considering clarifying and formalizing access to Community Initiatives grants?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the flexibility was very helpful and did allow for issues which came up to be dealt with. So at the moment I do not have a reason to look at trying to change that method. If there is any that should be brought to my attention, though, I hope that the member will do so.

Ms. McGifford: Is the flexibility so that if something unusual comes up in the year there is an ability to respond to that with financial grants or grant?

Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is yes.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder then if the minister would mind forwarding to me, along with the other things that she has already agreed to forward, a list of Community Initiatives grants and who has received them.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I am happy to do that. I have a list of the grant recipients and projects here now. Would you like them read into the record?

Ms. McGifford: Yes.

Mrs. Vodrey: Okay, so these are the grant recipients for '96-97. Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation, to assist with costs re bringing some film producers from the U.S. to Manitoba to, I presume, look at our locations, and the amount processed to date is $3,000.

The Philippine Heritage Week Co-ordinating Committee, that project was the 98th Anniversary of Philippine Independence, and processed to date is $1,000.

The Association of Manitoba Museums--Planning and Evaluation Study and processed to date, $8,955.

The Manitoba Audio Recording Industry Association, that was for a strategic planning retreat, and the amount was $4,000.

The Manitoba Crafts Council, that was for the Industry Inventory Economic Impact Study and Strategic Plan, and that was $10,000.

Wanda Koop, Aganetha Dyck and Bill Ekan, that was travel to Amsterdam for the "Home Is Where the Heart Is" project, and the amount to date is $3,774.

The Manitoba Multicultural Resources Centre and initial development of attracting some corporate sponsorship, the amount was $5,000.

The Association of Manitoba Book Publishers, development costs of the National Intellectual Properties Conference, and the amount was $5,000.

The Manitoba Historical Society, to celebrate the Manitoba 125th Anniversary Program, the amount was $6,480.

A grant recipient was Storyline FX, and the project was Freeze Frame. The Winnipeg International Film Festival For Children, the dollar amount processed to date was $8,000. Primus Theatre tour to New York City, the processed amount to date, $2,200.

The Northern Manitoba Trappers Festival 50th Anniversary, the arts and cultural component of the organization's 50th anniversary, the amount was $5,000.

Manitoba Crafts Council, to hold the Crafts Industry Forum, the amount was $6,000.

The Western Francophone Games, to assist with the arts and cultural components of the games, the amount processed to date, $7,200.

The Manitoba Crafts Council, to support the Hong Kong Pottery Workshop, the amount was $2,000.

Ms. McGifford: I would not have asked the minister to read it into the record if I had known it was so long. I could have simply received it, but I thank her for doing that. I have no more questions on Grants to Cultural Organizations.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 14.2.(b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,303,400--pass. (c) Manitoba Arts Council $6,767,300.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to begin by asking a question that I have asked before in connection with other lines, and that is when was the last time that the government reviewed the act creating the Manitoba Arts Council? I notice it was passed in 1987, so we are at that magic 10-year mark mentioned by the minister last year in his determination to review The Heritage Act..

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the government, in 1990, had the arts policy review which submitted a report, and I understand that report did not make any recommendations regarding changes to The Arts Council Act.

Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister, Mr. Chair, if that was the report commonly known as the DeFehr Report.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it was.

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Ms. McGifford: I know that in the past the council has approached the community and major stakeholders requesting feedback to the council on asking questions about whether the community feels the council is responding to the community needs and whether it can or should do something differently. I wonder if the minister knows if the Arts Council itself is considering undertaking such a review, and if it is, would that review be an internally generated one or would it be--well, I guess it would be internally generated if it were doing something like that.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the Manitoba Arts Council has implemented a multidisciplinary community committee, which meets four times per year to discuss any needs, issues. As then issues are presented to them, they look at attempting to make whatever modifications may be necessary, modifications, I presume, which do not require changes to the act but are ones that they can do to meet community needs.

Ms. McGifford: Would the minister tell me, or does she know, who is part of this multidisciplinary committee? How does one become a part of this group? Are they appointed by the Manitoba Arts Council, by the community? What is the--

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that organizations are asked to send representatives and also that individual artists are appointed on a rotating basis.

Ms. McGifford: But my question was, who does the asking?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that council staff ask their organizations then to send representatives and to determine who might be on on this rotating basis of artists.

Ms. McGifford: So there is no way of lobbying the community and having the community send their own delegates or appointees or representatives, or does that also happen? The concern behind my questions is that a body that regulates and looks after itself but also makes its own appointments is not vetted in the same way as a group which has members of the public appointed by the public; in this case, it would be members of the community appointed by the community as opposed to being asked by the Arts Council. I hope I am making myself clear.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that it is advisory and that it represents the clients. I am not quite sure if the member is saying there then should be other community representation who perhaps are not necessarily involved and that they should somehow make it known by an advertisement or something that this committee exists and people could forward their names. I am not quite sure how to get at the community part that the member is speaking about.

Ms. McGifford: Well, it is very difficult, I think, to get at the--it is often very difficult. But my concern is with people being appointed rather than groups being asked to send a person. That is what happens?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that is what happens, that the groups are approached and the groups determine whom they will recommend to sit on the committee. It is not that the Arts Council reaches in for a person, but rather they reach through their client group, who appoints someone from themselves.

Ms. McGifford: That seems to me to be a much sounder method than what I had understood to exist, and I am glad that it is existing.

I want to ask a question of the minister, and I ask this without any criticisms at all of the Manitoba Arts Council, because I think I certainly put my very complimentary remarks on the record last year. But could the minister explain to me exactly how the Arts Council is accountable to Manitobans? What is the chain of accountability?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the annual general report of the Manitoba Arts Council is tabled by the Premier in the Legislature.

Ms. McGifford: Does the Arts Council have an annual general meeting to which the public are invited or can attend?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand they do not.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to make a comment and that is that I have heard both from the Manitoba Teachers' Society and from artists in the schools themselves that there have been some problems with the Artists in the Schools program. Apparently the process of obtaining grants for artists is becoming increasingly labourious and time consuming, and consequently, so I am told, teachers are less inclined to apply than they have been in the past.

I believe as well that there may be some added complexities in remuneration to the artists themselves. In any case, regardless of the complexity of circumstances, some teachers and some artists have been upset so much so that the Manitoba Teachers' Society and the artists, I believe, have met with representatives from the Manitoba Arts Council.

I wanted to say that I think that the Artists in the Schools program is excellent, and it is essential to the education of children in Manitoba. I think exposure to practising artists, musicians, writers story tellers, actors, dancers, puppeteers--and this list is not even inclusive because that program is really so multifaceted and there are so many different persons involved.

Anyway, I think that the program is practically and pedagogically sound in a practically and pedagogically sound way of developing and encouraging creativity in our students. This seems to me more and more important especially at a time when the curriculum in the schools, I believe, is becoming narrower. Some believe it is becoming rigid and especially, I think, at a time when we need creative solutions to the problems of daily life whether these be local problems, national problems or international problems. I think we simply cannot afford to dull our students' creativity and, in this case, I am talking about the Artists in the Schools program.

I want to add that I think we need always to be aware of the important economic gains and spinoffs of the arts. I think, as the minister said in her opening statement, Credo is proving that in spades, and I think it is clear in the numbers of people who come to see performances of the ballet, to attend the new music festival or the Manitoba Theatre Centre or the Warehouse or Prairie Theatre Exchange or to visit the Winnipeg Art Gallery or any of the myriad of galleries that we have in Winnipeg.

There are also other art forms that are generated here. There is publishing which generates jobs and monies in Manitoba. So my point is that artists play a very important role in our economic lives as well as in our cultural and creative lives, and I think the future generations of artists should begin their creative lives in our schools, and that is why this program is so important.

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In short, and I think I can speak for my caucus here and I think artists know this, we are and I am, my caucus by way, are very, very much in favour of a strong, well-run Artists in the Schools program, and I wanted to put this on the record. So we hope that both the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and the Minister of Education along with MAC will share our commitment. We do not want to see this program go the same way as Grade 11 History seems to have gone, that is, into the dumpster.

We need to proceed with the program. We need a commitment to these dedicated artists, who really do work for our children, and to the teachers who facilitate this work. So I wanted to make that comment, and I do not know if the minister wants to respond. I realize it was rather lengthy.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I think that I do not really find anything to disagree with in what you have said in that we also are very interested in the artisan school. I have had personal experience of friends who have taken that role, and as former Minister of Education, I was well acquainted with it.

I can tell the member, just to bring her up to date, that the department has discussed this with the MAC staff. I understand that changes were made to ensure that schools participated fully in the process. The program was apparently designed to spread employment amongst the artists and also to improve accountability. I understand that, subject to some of the complaints, MAC has made some additional revisions, which have satisfied the artists, but I know that they are also meeting with the artists to attempt to resolve what has been seen as the complexity issue.

Ms. McGifford: Can the minister tell me if during the past year, for example, the number of requests for artists in the schools remains constant or increased? Does the minister have those figures?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand I have just been handed a booklet, which I am either happy to table or send the member a fresh one--perhaps that would be the best--entitled "Art Support '95-96." What this does is it lists every single grant. It does not total it, though, so I am not able to give you a total, but I certainly do not have any difficulty sending the member a copy of this. I see the one that I have in front of me has got a name on it and some marks in it. So, if that would be helpful, I would be glad to do that.

Ms. McGifford: Well, I thank the minister; I actually have that particular report. I was more interested in the '96-97 year, but I am sure that will come out and then I can look up those statistics for myself.

I am very glad to hear that the minister shares the commitment to the Artists in the Schools program because we clearly both believe that it is very important.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I would just say that apparently we do not yet have the '96-97 report, so when we do receive it, the member will get a copy of that.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (c) Manitoba Arts Council $6,767,300--pass; (d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $578,400.

Ms. McGifford: I do have a few questions. I am sorry to be such a nuisance. I wonder if the minister could tell me if there is a specific act governing the workings of the Heritage Advisory Council.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, no, there is not a specific act.

Ms. McGifford: I understand that the Heritage Grants Advisory Council grants money under the Heritage Grants Program. I wonder if the minister could explain the difference between grant assistance through the Heritage Grants Program and grant assistance through Community Heritage Grants in Historic Resources.

Mrs. Vodrey: The HGAC grants are administered by citizens who are appointed to that council, and they provide recommendations on the distribution of funds for projects, specific projects. The Historic Resources branch grants are operating grants. They are ongoing; they are formula based.

Ms. McGifford: Are the heritage grants, or what the minister I think called the hack grants--

Mrs. Vodrey: HGAC.

Ms. McGifford: HGAC grants. That is better than hack, is it not? Is there one pool of applications received a year, and is it decided at that time who gets the money? What is the process for obtaining?

Mrs. Vodrey: There are two intakes for the HGAC grants, one in January, one in June. They are by application. Subcommittees of the council review the grants. They review in areas of their own particular expertise. They then make recommendations to the full council, which makes recommendations to the minister.

Where there are technical needs or where there is a technical assistance required, that is provided through the Historic Resources branch.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me if the grants through the Heritage Grants Advisory Council are generally spread around the province so that different regions receive what we might call, loosely speaking at least, their fair share?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that the council would say that they make their recommendations based on merit, that they do not follow a specific geographic formula. However, I am also informed that the general outcome is one in which there in fact seems to be a good, general distribution.

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Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister or her staff would forward me a copy of the most recent Heritage Grants Advisory Council, or the grants anyway, and I wonder, the minister spoke about the expertise of councillors, and I am assuming then there are a set of criteria for appointments where people are appointed for their expertise. I wonder if she could give me a sense of the variety of expertise represented on the council.

Mrs. Vodrey: This council is made up of people with specific expertise in a range of technical areas, by and large, people who have professional training as archeologists, as architects, general historians, people with a background in museums, people with backgrounds that would assist in assessing these specific kinds of projects that tend to come before the council for evaluation and for grant assistance.

Ms. McGifford: Three very related questions, or at least two. Does the minister make the appointments and on whose advice, and is the current council geographically representative of the province?

Mrs. Vodrey: The minister makes the appointments. I understand that when there is a vacancy on the council, council suggests to the minister the type of expertise or experience that they would like and they feel they need, and I can tell the member that I am at the moment looking to make some appointments to that council, and I am looking to make an appointment that would be representative of the northern part of Manitoba.

Ms. McGifford: Well, I thank the minister for that because I know it was a concern expressed in last year's Estimates by my colleague from Flin Flon. I am also pleased to hear--it sounds to me as though the Heritage Grants Advisory Council in a sense with the approval of the minister appoints itself, and therefore it is truly a citizens' group.

Mrs. Vodrey: What the council does is they recommend a type of expertise. They may forward some names or--this is my first year of making these appointments. Sometimes it may be perhaps that we have to try and find some people with that expertise and a willingness to serve.

But I think that the important part is that a number of the people who are active in the area of expertise required are probably known to council members, so that they may, in fact, submit some names and look to see if that expertise can be satisfied in that way.

Ms. McGifford: Is there any remuneration for sitting on the council?

Mrs. Vodrey: There are no per diems, but expenses are covered.

Ms. McGifford: Thank you for that information. I wonder if the Heritage Grants Advisory Council provides financial support to any of the archives around the province.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand we do not have a specific example at the moment. However, I understand that, if there was an application made, they would be considered on their merits, and maybe we do have an example. Sorry. We do have an example. For '96-97, the Association for Manitoba Archives received a grant of $15,088, and the Carberry Plains Archives received a grant of $2,616.

Ms. McGifford: I understand that the federal government provides the Manitoba chapter of the Canadian Council for Archives with approximately $120,000 and that most provinces match this amount with provincial grants, but that Manitoba really, according to the archivist to whom I have spoken, and I quote here, "hasn't really pulled its weight here." Many archivists in the province feel there is not really a serious commitment to the preservation of archival material.

My understanding is that very often what happens in Manitoba is the body that generates a record needs to assume responsibility for preserving the record and often assumes responsibility for making that record available to scholars. So, in essence, then, the record generators are responsible for maintaining records and for providing staffing in order to make records available. I am sure that the minister and I both agree that preserving our records and our history is extremely important. Whether these be records of churches, colleges, universities or whatever, I am sure that we agree that history is extremely important, and we want to preserve our heritage. Consequently, the minister is the Minister of Culture and Heritage.

I want to ask the minister if she would look very closely at the support that is needed for the preservation of records in Manitoba, and I would really like to know if staff are doing this kind of work, because I am very concerned about it.

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, I think this government does have a record of support to the archives. We certainly put a significant effort into our own archival area within government. We will be cost- sharing with the federal government, the Centre du patrimoine with the Franco-Manitoban Cultural Centre at that centre, and we also provide a grant to the Association for Manitoba Archives of $10,800. So there is certainly money being spent by our government in support of the archives. We also are supporting the Hudson's Bay Company Archives as well. So there are a number of examples of support and dollars spent in this area. But in this area, as in all areas, there do have to be some decisions made in terms of the dollars spent, and I believe our government does have a good record of preserving funding in these areas.

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I have just been informed of another example of our support. We also fund the Ukrainian Cultural and Educational Centre, which has archives, at $67,000 a year. So there are lists of our support, and I suppose, as in any area, the question is, well, what is actually enough? But I think our commitment is certainly there, and in some cases it is really quite significant.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder how the minister responds to what I have heard from many archivists and that is that many jurisdictions in Canada match the federal government's grant. In this case, I understand that the federal government, as I said before, provides the Manitoba chapter of the Canadian Council of Archives with $120,000. I am told that this is, in many jurisdictions, matched provincially.

Mrs. Vodrey: The line 14.3. (d) Provincial Archives is one in which we will have staff from the Archives here. So perhaps the line of questioning could be carried on at that line. I know we have a staff member who is quite affected by the flood. I am not sure if that individual will be here, so I may have to undertake some questions and return the information to the member. So I cannot confirm whether there is in fact matching in other provinces. As the member knows, all provinces appear to give grant money in different forms. There might be money under this umbrella, none under another, in which case this province has maintained commitments in many areas and in many ways in reference, for instance, to the Ukrainian Cultural Centre which has an archival component to it. So I certainly think that our support in the area of support to archives is at least a commitment on the part of this province to the work and also to our interest in that particular area.

Ms. McGifford: My specific question was that I asked the minister if she looked very closely at the support for preservation of records, and I put that question forth once more.

Mrs. Vodrey: I think the best answer at this point is to say that I am looking at all areas of my department who, I really believe, are doing very important work on behalf of the people of our province and all others. The member references scholars who use this material in some of their work. When we have staff at that appropriate line as well, if there are some more detail that I might be able to provide at that time, I would be happy to do that then.

Ms. McGifford: Certainly. I wanted to say at this point that I appreciate the minister's statement that she is relatively new to this critic area. I am sure that the minister appreciates that my role as the critic is to solicit opinion from people in the various fields and bring their concerns to the floor when I have the opportunity as I do. So I am not asking questions with malintent. I am asking questions because I feel I have a duty to the constituency that I represent here, being the culture and heritage community. So I just wanted to put that out.

Mrs. Vodrey: Let me just assure you, no offence taken. My answers are the answers I would give if I had the opportunity to sit with those people as well at this time. As an attempt to answer to them what our support has been, recognition that no one can provide everything that is perhaps desired, and to reiterate to those individuals what our commitment is, and if there is something more that needs to be looked at, then the commitment to look ahead. But I appreciate the member's comments, and there was no offence taken either. Thanks, though, for your comments.

Ms. McGifford: To move on then. Last year the minister said that the decrease in grant assistance from 1995-96 to 1996-97--I believe in 1995-96 it was $600,000, and it went down to $500,000 and remains so--was offset by the ability to recuperate funds through bingos. I wanted to ask the minister how this ability to recuperate funds was affected by the lottery strike.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, first of all, for any groups who may have been affected by the strike, the government has compensated those groups with an equal dollar amount that they were expected to generate from the bingo. I also understand that it really did not affect HGAC in the first year of their bingo. But the general answer was that if anyone was affected, they have in fact received a compensation.

Ms. McGifford: So does this mean that, since the grant in 1995-96 was $600,000 and then it went down to $500,000, in '96-97 $100,000 was made from bingos by the various groups that would normally have gotten money through--what is the minister calling it--HGAC?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that is, in fact, correct.

Ms. McGifford: So that is 33 bingos, I guess. I wonder if the minister sympathizes with the fact that in some situations there are certain groups who find it very difficult to find the staff people to run bingos, and I think some groups have a very difficult time managing their day-to-day affairs. The work is taxing enough without having to find volunteers and prepare them for bingos. I do not think that there is a never-ending stream of volunteers who are dying to do bingos. I know personally I have done bingos and just about have been asphyxiated from the smoke in the bingo halls, and I find it really distasteful work, but, I mean, one does these things from time to time.

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Mrs. Vodrey: Just to make sure the record is correct. The member spoke about 33 bingos. I understand 27 projects were allocated bingos. I understand as well that volunteers are required to operate bingos, and that is a fact. Many of the community groups do have volunteers or can call on other friends. It does not necessarily, as the member knows, have to be a volunteer of that particular organization. It can be whoever takes the responsibility to then call on either their own volunteer group or other friends and neighbours to assist.

I understand that, in general, the council has had some positive feedback from many organizations that are wishing to work bingos and that the volunteer time spent to work the bingo is considered as the organization's contribution, and therefore with smaller projects, no cash outlay is required. So, as the member said, there is not a never-ending supply of volunteers, that is true, but there is not sort of a never- ending supply within a government allocation. So we looked for a way in which to allow groups and to assist groups with the amount allocated being really quite a significant amount of money. So I think it is still an opportunity for groups to assist them in the dollars that they need.

Ms. McGifford: I mentioned 33, because I know that one gets approximately $3,000 a night for running a bingo, so it was a very quick rough calculation. I am sure that there are many requests for working bingos, because people need the money or organizations need the money in order to keep running. But my point was that there are some groups for whom it is very difficult to obtain volunteers because of the nature of their work. For example, I, at one time, was on the editorial collective of a poetry magazine, and it was very difficult for us to get volunteers to go and run a bingo for that poetry magazine which we needed in order to continue.

I realize I am not talking about a heritage grant group here. Archivists, for example--I do not know whether any of the persons who received monies through the bingos happened to represent archives, but they are not kind of "the sexiest act in town." I think it may be very difficult for those groups to get the volunteers. So I am really speaking on behalf of those groups, and is there any other arrangement that could be made for them?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the groups do have to indicate a willingness to work a bingo in their application. So if some groups would feel that they would have difficulty in terms of getting the appropriate number of volunteers, then they would indicate that they were not prepared to work a bingo.

Ms. McGifford: The line of questioning here is based on what the minister told me last year, and he told me last year that monies that a group lost because of the cut of $100,000 could easily be made up by doing bingos. But if a group cannot do a bingo, am I right in my understanding then that the group cannot make up to get the grant that they would normally have gotten before?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that just about the total amount of the $100,000 has in fact been awarded for the bingo. So in fact that dollar amount has been made up, and there is not a question of it not having been made up. If groups are not able to work a bingo or are unwilling for some reason or unable to for some reason that would be factored in by the council in their awarding of the dollar amount.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 14.2. (d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $578,400--pass.

14.2. (e) Arts Branch (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $465,900.

Ms. McGifford: I certainly have some questions on the Arts Branch, and I would like to make some general comments, and then perhaps that will lead to a specific question.

First, I want to suggest to the minister that she, on behalf of arts groups in Manitoba, request that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) give these groups the same privileges that certain sports organizations have had, and that is the opportunity to solicit government employees, including MLAs, for season tickets through payroll deductions.

I am sure that the performing arts groups, and I include both those inside and outside Winnipeg, would welcome the opportunity to increase their ticket sales. I hope the minister will go to bat for them. I know I have had requests to buy season tickets for sports groups, and I wonder if we could not do it for arts groups too.

Mrs. Vodrey: To the knowledge of the staff people here with me, there has not been such a request by those groups. If there were such a request, then we would follow up with that request and see what may be possible.

Ms. McGifford: They probably have not thought of it. It is kind of a cheeky suggestion, and maybe if the minister were to phone them up and ask them, they would be only too glad.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the RWB expressed an interest a few years ago and then decided that they did not wish to proceed. I can tell the member, in my meetings with these groups, they have been very creative in their own audience development programs, and this has not been something which has been recommended. I have been very interested in the commitment of the boards of all the arts groups that I have met with in terms of their own view of how they wish to proceed with their audience development but, at this point, I would say that if any of those groups did approach us then I am certainly willing to follow up.

Ms. McGifford: Well, I am sure from their point of view, the more season tickets sold, the merrier. Maybe I will call some of them and make the suggestion directly and see what they think about it.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Order, please. I would just remind the committee that any remarks are to be made through the Chair.

Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Maybe I will phone those arts groups.

I wanted to take this opportunity to congratulate officially and on the record the Manitoba motion picture industry on its resounding successes. I know the minister spoke about them, notably "The Arrow," "Twilight of the Ice Nymphs," "The Adventures of Shirley Holmes," "My Life as a Dog." I understand that Derek Mazur, the president of Credo and chairman of the Manitoba Motion Picture Industries Association, believes that the Manitoba film industry will be doing $100 million worth of business by 2000. I think the minister made that comment in her opening address.

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I am pleased, too, to note that the Manitoba motion picture industry has initiated a training program to ensure the personnel necessary for the predicted expansion. Certainly one wants to congratulate Carol Vivier from the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation for her contributions to this industry. I could continue, but I only will make one more point on this theme, and that is again to point out the economic benefits of the arts. Clearly, when films are being made, restaurants, hotels, retail outlets, and other businesses are enjoying really a brisker business.

I wanted to ask a couple of specific questions, however. I have a news release from the Manitoba Film and Sound Development Corporation, in which it says that in 1996-97 fiscal year, a total of 153 projects received assistance from Manitoba Film and Sound for a total commitment of $1.7 million, and then it breaks down that figure. I think that this is just a point of clarification, because I note that in the Estimates book for 1996-1997, the line for Film Support Grants is $2,053.9 million, so I am confused. Does this mean that all the money from the Film Support Grants does not go through the Film and Sound Development Corporation but is given out in another way?

Mrs. Vodrey: I can tell the member that the total amount, $1.248.9 or a little over $1.2 million, does flow directly to Manitoba Film and Sound as a grant. The dollar amount that she sees in the budget line, which is 2.53, that is made up of additional grants which are made to sound programs, to locations, to training and discretionary fund and some dollars to administration and salary. It does all flow through Manitoba Film and Sound.

Ms. McGifford: I believe the minister said in her introductory remarks that she would be soon announcing the board members of the Manitoba Film and Sound Recording Development Corporation.

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I will be announcing those shortly.

Ms. McGifford: Those names are not yet public.

Mrs. Vodrey: No, they are not yet public.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if I could ask a couple of questions in the area of film. First of all, I wondered what the provincial government did in response to the federal government's cuts to the National Film Board, if there was a response to that from the provincial government.

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, our government cannot continue to backfill the cuts of the federal government; that is clear, because the cuts in all areas have been significant, particularly in the area of health, education and support to families. However, in this area what we did was not a backfill, but rather developed the special loan program and also the tax credit program. So we developed two programs ourselves to try and assist.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I did not mean to suggest that the provincial government should be responsible in this case. It would seem to me that one of the things that is very important in view of the fact that the film production industry is growing in Manitoba, is that we have a strategy to promote the viewing of local and national film in the province, and I wonder if there is such a strategy.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that we provide support to the Brandon Film Festival and to Freeze Frame and to the Winnipeg Film Group and also to Cinematheque.

Ms. McGifford: It sounds to me, Mr. Chair, as though there is funding on an ad hoc basis, but is there a fixed strategy or is there an effort to develop a strategy to encourage all Manitobans to have the opportunity to see the films that we are making here in the province of Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand what the member is speaking about in terms of a way to encourage Manitobans to actually see some of the work that is produced here or developed here. The Arts Branch does have a mandate to support audience development. The dollars that are spent in the Brandon Film Fest and Freeze Frame are part of this mandate, so I do not think ad hoc is the way to describe it but rather a decision and a commitment on the part of our mandate.

There has also been, as the member mentioned in her own opening remarks today, really quite a lot of feature films and series and movies of the week that have been filmed or developed here, so there is also then general support and advertising and audience development to deal with those, just by way of example, "Heck's Way Home," "My Life as a Dog." There has really been quite a lot written and I think also promoted about some of these, certainly "The Arrow" as well. But I think what the member is saying is not sort of general but in a more specific way is there something--that an effort is being made in a reliable way. I think it is a good point. Yes, we do have the mandate to do that. Yes, I believe some it is done, but I do think it is worth watching for as well.

Ms. McGifford: I think my point is that without the promotion of individual Manitoba film makers the industry is just another place to work and will not really encourage creativity and whatnot in the province. Just to put that aside for a minute, I wanted to ask the minister if her government has plans to advocate for film study in schools as part of the school curriculum and perhaps even as a part of the Artists in the Schools program because we cannot start too early, can we?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the Winnipeg Art Gallery has a program which is very useful and helpful to encourage people into film making; young people in particular. Whether or not it becomes a part of a curriculum development or part of a school curriculum the member may wish to raise this as well with my colleague the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh). I am not aware at this time of this being specifically a part of the arts curriculum, however, I have not been as close to some of the school issues as I was at one time, so it is certainly something that I think could be looked at.

I understand that on their own a number of high schools are moving in this direction, and that MMPIA is getting a lot of requests. Just by way of example, two of the schools, because high schools can do this, Westwood and R.B. Russell have moved in this area and also Glenlawn which has a very active department in this area as well.

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Ms. McGifford: Earlier we talked about the DeFehr Report. This is a report about which I have asked the former minister for the past two years, because I do take its recommendation seriously. I have repeatedly asked the former minister about one particular important and central recommendation, Mr. Chair, and that is that an art act be legislated, this being an act which recognizes the complexity and maturity of the relationship between government and the arts.

There are two basic purposes to such an act. First of all, the minister responsible for that act, who would be the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), would be in a stronger position to advocate on behalf of the arts among the various government departments and among government agencies. Secondly, an art act would provide the minister with an opportunity to present an annual report on the arts in Manitoba and so inform and educate both legislators, that is us, and the public at large.

Once again, I think we agree that the arts are important and influential in many government departments, in Education, in I, T and T, and they could probably be extremely important in Urban Affairs. I think that we perhaps could do more to encourage the development of the core of our city through the arts. An act would be, I think, a golden opportunity as well as a formal opportunity for the minister to advocate for the arts for their role in the province. It would be an open and public sign that we value the arts, including cultural industries.

So I want to ask this minister, having asked the former minister for two years running, if there has been a change of heart, and would she consider introducing an art act as recommended in her own government's DeFehr 1990 report, bearing in mind of course that such an act would cost nothing yet perhaps accomplish a great deal.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the federal government, which has such an act, worked on it for quite some time. It was very, very complicated, and it also took significant time to proclaim, even parts of it, and then further time before the whole act was in fact proclaimed. So at the moment we do not have plans to do that, but I do believe that our commitment to the arts is very, very evident, and I do not think there is any question in the minds of the arts community in Manitoba about this government's commitment.

This government has taken a number of steps in all areas of the arts to assist our artists, to assist in arts development and to assist communities in terms of their arts development, the arts development both in the major arts groups as well as in community arts development. So though we do not at the moment have an act, that does not mean that we have in any way stood still in terms of our commitment. It is a very complicated issue to develop the act. I would not want to hinge our commitment to the arts on the development of that act alone. As the member says, it is complicated. It would involve issues such as labour, education and training, Revenue Canada and so on.

So I would focus instead on the other concrete things which in many cases have been dollars, the new tax credit and other initiatives, which I believe have shown the arts community and have given them tremendous support. They receive support financially. I believe they also receive support by way of interest of this government in terms of--I know we can maybe talk about the Crafts Council, the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the efforts to bring arts into the community, our community arts development, so there has been a lot of work and a lot of effort in that area. That is a concrete work and at the moment the priority of this government.

Ms. McGifford: The art act was recommended, of course, to the minister's own government by the DeFehr Report which was part of a group commissioned by the current government. Having left the art act, then, I wanted to try this one, and that is the Status of the Artist Act.

Many jurisdictions in Canada, the federal government, the former NDP government in Ontario and the current Saskatchewan government--though there may be more; I am not up to date on every jurisdiction--have done preliminary work and preliminary reports on the possibility of the Status of the Artist Act. These acts, as I am sure the minister knows, and here I am summarizing, generally make recommendations which government could implement and identify actions which government could take to provide social and economic equality for artists.

The point is to demonstrate concretely that the artist is a valued part of our society, that the artist status or position in our society is valued and also to acknowledge the myriad ways in which artists enrich our lives. The recommendations made in the reports I have read generally include economic equity issues, social equity concerns, education, training and professional development, visibility, legitimacy and access to art issues, minority rights and nondiscrimination issues and social benefits.

Having said all that, my question is, I wonder if this minister is considering or would consider examining the status of the artist in Manitoba, as I am sure this minister knows that many and even most of our artists live in grinding poverty without pensions and without the monetary comforts of old age that many of us have to look forward to and do this all in the service of art and the exploration of culture.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the answer here is really the same. I understand that some governments have focused on some legislation. Sometimes the legislation may be the only thing they have to show for their support to the arts and to artists.

Our government's position has been the support that we have provided to the arts, to the artists and to the artistic community, and we are focusing on measures which bring jobs, which increase the participation in the artistic community, which increase markets for the products of the artist. I mentioned several in my opening remarks that I believe will really assist our artists of all types.

So at the moment the act is not a priority, so things have not changed there, but what has been a priority for this government is to assist the arts groups and the artists. I believe we have done that in a very concrete way, and it is evidenced through very measurable things such as the dollar amounts generated and the participation of the community and so on.

Ms. McGifford: I do hear the minister saying that her government's priority has been to assist artists and arts groups, yet Stats Canada reports, and I do not think Manitoba is very different from other Canadian provinces, that on the average painters, sculptors and related artists have an average income of $14,000, and 55 percent of that is cultural income, so their cultural income is $7,600. Writers have an average income of $23,500, 65 percent generated from their writing or $15,275. Musicians have an annual income, again average, of $20,300, and 67 percent of this money is culturally related or $13,601. I am going to stop here with these figures.

It just seems to be quite clear that the biggest subsidizers of arts and culture in Canada and undoubtedly in Manitoba are the artists themselves. They are well-educated and skilled people who sacrifice their standards of living in order to pursue their culture, and again we are cognizant, as we have been saying repeatedly, of the economic contribution they make to this province. So I do not think that we are necessarily serving the artists in this province well. I do not think we are necessarily doing well by these people.

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Mrs. Vodrey: In terms of the member's concerns about the level of income to allow people to continue as artists, I am not sure that an act is going to make a big difference in that. So I do not see that that is going to be a priority at the moment for our government, because I do not see that as a demonstratively good mechanism to assist. What we are doing to assist, however, is we are working with the artistic community, we are working with government departments to address the key issue which would assist them in this area, and that is the marketing of their products. When the marketing of the products, the market for those products increases, then obviously what comes back to the artists by way of income would be increasing.

The ballet, for example, told us that the ballet, our Royal Winnipeg Ballet, now works 46 weeks a year. I believe that was the number when I went to visit the ballet board and executive director. I understand that is really an incredible number of weeks of employment for those artists as compared to other ballets across the country. Part of that is because their market has expanded. Not only do they perform here in Winnipeg, but they also perform across Canada, across United States and also in other countries.

The Crafts Industry Development Forum, through that a strategic plan was developed for that industry to guide its development to assist it. I was really impressed when I went to visit with that group at their fairly recent conference how very, very seriously this issue had been tackled by that group who were very understanding of the needs to expand their markets and also therefore to improve their income.

The Export Readiness Forum for all Manitoba's cultural industries, film, sound, visual arts, crafts, performing arts, publishing, will assist them in developing partnerships and strategies for promoting and for selling their products. So, though I do not dispute the numbers put on the record by the member, what I would say as a way to improve those numbers is to improve the market, and that is what this government has been assisting the artists to do. I believe that is an important priority.

I would also say too that the funding to the arts has really been relatively stable in this environment, and stable funding in this environment ensures that Manitoba musicians and other artists can live and work full time in our province. So our government has had, I think, a commitment in a several-pronged approach to deal with stability and increasing markets and increasing income of our artists in Manitoba.

Now that is certainly what I would intend, as minister, to want to make sure continued for the artists in Manitoba. If there is any question of her wondering about my interest in that area, I have assured the arts groups as I have met them of my personal interest, my interest in their developing and developing their markets.

Ms. McGifford: The minister said she did not dispute the stats. They are not mine; they are Stats Canada. Artists have been poor and needed patrons since well before the Renaissance, and some generations, some historical epochs have done better by artists than others have, for example, the Renaissance. I think it was Bramwell Tovey who said a couple of years ago when there was so much brouhaha about the Winnipeg Jets that one Jet made more money than the entire Winnipeg Symphony did in a year so--

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Shame.

Ms. McGifford: Shame, as my colleague from Burrows says. I do not lay that at the government's doorstep. That certainly is a reflection of public values and, in my opinion, a sorry reflection.

However, I wanted to make a couple of other points, and one of them is that the minister referred to the funding to the arts as being stable and stable, of course, does not take into consideration inflation. So stability is important, but it does not tell the whole story when we say it is stable. It is still my experience that most artists that I know are not doing well financially, that they do not have pensions, that they do not live in the kind of house I do, for example, and I think that the status of the artist act would begin to try and address some of these inequities if it were taken seriously.

We have, again, talked several times. Both the minister and I have mentioned the importance of the arts, the economic spinoffs of the arts, the money that the arts bring to this province and, yet, it seems to me that the artists themselves, the ones who create the market, are not the recipients of this economic prosperity.

However, having said that, I wonder if I could ask the minister if she has ever considered holding an annual meeting with people from the arts and with the public, if the public were so inclined, as a kind of opportunity to engage stakeholders and talk to people. I realize that the Manitoba Arts Council is a presence in the community, but several individuals in groups that I have talked to have expressed an interest in having an annual meeting with the minister. I wonder what the minister thinks of this or if she has considered it. I ask the minister.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I had not considered it because of the number of annual meetings held by a number of groups, had not considered it perhaps because the request had not come to me at this point and because I am fairly new in the ministry. So I am trying to understand what the member is looking for. The ministry certainly meets regularly with clients. I understand that no one has expressed this to the departmental staff at this point, so it is an idea that is perhaps developing. I am prepared to look at what the requests might entail and to see how such a thing might be accomplished. At this point I had not planned to do that, but the idea may be one which may merit exploration.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, well, maybe I have the privilege of unusual lines of communication because I have spoken to several people, people in the publish industry, at galleries and what not, who thought that this was an interesting idea for the minister to hold an annual meeting, invite various artists, various groups and just speak with them, hear their concerns first-hand, which I am sure the minister would agree is a little different than artists meeting with representatives from her ministry, talented and hospitable and open as they may be and I am sure they are, but the minister is the minister is the minister.

Mrs. Vodrey: Okay, Mr. Chair, I think I understand what the member is saying now then, as opposed to an annual meeting sort of forum, but an annual opportunity for certain groups to come and meet with the minister. I have certainly been trying to meet with all the groups that would like to have that opportunity, and so if the member is aware of certain groups that perhaps have not yet requested a meeting but would like to request a meeting, then they only need to make the request. I have had a wonderful opportunity in the past few months meeting with a large number of groups, and there are more to be met with when there is in fact more time to do that. I am trying each week to meet with those who are interested, and that part I can say I am certainly willing to do.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to make reference to the recent decision by the federal government re advertisements by the tobacco industry and what she thinks the effects on Manitoba arts and on the Manitoba art scenes might be. I think--well, I will leave that with her.

Mrs. Vodrey: Certainly Manitoba's hope is that there will be compensatory funding for the arts and for cultural events. As the member rightly points out, this is a federal decision, one that was made at the federal level and it will have some effect.

I will be writing to the Honourable Shiela Copps and would say in that letter some of the areas that I think would be important. First of all, I have no argument--in fact our government is supportive of the concerns for health, particularly youth, and we have always been supportive of federal initiatives to prevent access by minors to tobacco products, but what we do want is some stable arts funding from the federal government just as we believe we have provided stable arts funding in Manitoba. We are looking to see if there are any special exemptions which might be afforded to the arts, and I think, again, most importantly is will there then be as a result of a federal government decision any compensatory funding.

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I will not be waiting for a ministerial meeting to write that letter, though. Because we are in the process of a federal election, I will have to wait to see who that minister may be at the end of the election process, although I suppose, since the minister still does hold that portfolio until the election day, then that letter could be sent now. So maybe I think the best point to say is that I am prepared to get that letter off immediately to deal with that minister right now, while that person has that portfolio and while the issue is very much before the public.

Ms. McGifford: I think it is an excellent idea for the minister to write to Ms. Copps, who, I am sure, will deal expeditiously with her communication.

I wanted to ask the minister if her government has a policy with regard to support by the tobacco industry, support of the arts.

Mrs. Vodrey: Our government's position has always been a concern for the health of youth in particular, and that is what this bill focuses on, is youth. The federal bill focuses on an attempt to deal with youth who are smokers, and our government has always expressed that concern. In fact, when we get to the Status of Women we will be discussing some of the initiatives put in place by this government in an attempt to keep young women in particular away from smoking. However, as a result of the federal legislation then and the effect of it, we will be looking for some compensation for the arts.

Ms. McGifford: Does the minister's government believe that the arts should accept funding from tobacco companies?

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand permissively before this time, it was always an effort to balance the health issue with the funding which was available for the arts. Now that there is federal legislation which particularly is restrictive of this funding because the bill is aimed at not having young people be targeted in terms of smoking, then the balance is now changed. So now we will be then saying to the federal government: Now the balance changed. What kind of compensation is available for the arts? Because that would be important.

Ms. McGifford: I understand that the New Music Festival depends on $100,000 from du Maurier. I understand that du Maurier has given cash to just about every prominent arts group in Manitoba. I am assuming that the new legislation would change all that in that du Maurier would no longer be allowed to prominently display du Maurier, so I am wondering if the minister thinks that we might have had our last New Music Festival.

Mrs. Vodrey: Just to make sure the member's figures are correct on the record. I understand that, in the past, it has been a $60,000 contribution from du Maurier. This year the contribution was to have been $75,000, and that du Maurier made a contribution to the province of $100,000. At this time, we do not know what the impact will be as a result. Du Maurier can still sponsor the festival. This is the issue for a number of the companies as to make a decision about whether they wish to still sponsor the festival and not have prominent notability at the time, so I am not able to tell the member what in fact the outcome will be.

Ms. McGifford: I think that du Maurier is on record somewhere as having said that it would be unlikely to sponsor the festival if it could not prominently display its name, but I could be wrong on that. I am sorry, I did not understand what the minister meant when she said that du Maurier made a contribution to the province of $100,000.

Mrs. Vodrey: That was my fault in how I said it. Sorry. Let me correct the record myself, as well, to say that du Maurier makes a contribution to provincial arts projects in the $100,000 range. I just wanted to make sure that it was clear on the record. The $100,000 was not to the new music festival alone, but there were projects within the province that du Maurier supported to that level.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister would tell me which projects those were and if du Maurier's name was prominently featured or attached to those projects.

Mrs. Vodrey: The seven groups are the Winnipeg Symphony, the WSO; secondly, the Fringe Festival; thirdly, Folk Arts Council; fourthly, Rusalka; fifth, Cercle Molière; sixth, the Jazz Festival, which the member has referenced; and seventh, the RWB.

I am informed that du Maurier did have prominent advertising in each of those seven areas of contribution, and that across the country their contribution was $1.7 million to 194 recipients.

Ms. McGifford: They did rather well for $200,000, got a huge tax write-off and got prominent display in seven places.

I wanted to ask some other questions, if I could move on. I read in the annual report from which I quote, about the co-ordination of an interdepartmental committee on cultural labour force development with Manitoba Education and Training. I hope I am correct in understanding that Industry, Trade and Tourism has joined the other two departments, and that it includes representatives from national cultural industries and organizations. I understand that the focus is on cultural industries, particularly crafts and film, and that the committee met during the months from April 1995 to August 1996, and certainly appreciate the Arts Branch's continued response to the 1990 report of the government arts policy review committee, the DeFehr Report which I cited earlier, and I have a series of questions I wanted to ask here on this interdepartmental committee on the cultural labour force.

I wonder if the minister could tell, first of all, who chaired the committee, which national groups were involved and who represented them.

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, this was an interdepartmental committee. It had representatives from I, T and T, from Training and Advanced Education and from Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. The committee was chaired by Terry Welsh from our department, who is here at the table now.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me please, Mr. Chair, if submissions were made to the committee and who made these submissions? Is it possible for me to have a copy of any of these submissions or could she talk to me about them?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that there were no submissions, that the committee in fact was gathering statistics primarily from groups such as StatsCan.

Ms. McGifford: Has the committee published any reports?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that there is some draft information. The draft information is basically a compilation of widely available statistics. The effort in doing that was to assist the three departments in terms of their work.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, am I right in understanding that on June 2, 1997, there will be a cultural industries export forum at the Fort Garry Hotel, I understood sponsored by the minister?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that, yes, there was to have been a forum on June 2. It has been postponed. It was postponed as a result of the federal election and also our situation in Manitoba at the moment with flooding and a new date has not been set yet.

Ms. McGifford: But the forum will go ahead at a later date.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, it will.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me something about the nature of the forum, specifically the goals of the forum, what it hopes to accomplish.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it was an orientation session on export marketing. Groups such as Canada Heritage, Foreign Affairs, Industry Canada, provincially I, T and T, were going to act as presenters in this orientation forum.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me, please, who the presentations would be to.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, to the arts community, any individuals or organizations who want to export their artistic work would all be people who would be welcome to attend this forum.

Ms. McGifford: Then one of the goals would be to assist artists or artists groups in understanding ways or different ways of marketing their products.

Mrs. Vodrey: That is it exactly.

Ms. McGifford: I understand that fairly recently there was a consultation with crafters regarding industry marketing.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me something about the consultation? I am wondering if the government is interested in--well, clearly there is an interest in developing these strategies in the marketing of crafts and the products of art, since we just talked about that, but I ask this question because recently I was in Brandon speaking with people in that community, and people there seem to have some excellent ideas on marketing and really seemed to have a desire to have the opportunity to market their products, especially craft people.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, our government put money into the strategic plan development and also into the forum.

(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister or her staff have met with any people from western Manitoba, who seem to have some very good ideas about marketing their products and need, I suppose, some of the assistance and expertise that the minister and/or her staff may be able to supply.

Mrs. Vodrey: Forums are being held in Brandon, in Dauphin, and in Thompson, so there are four forums, one in Winnipeg, three in rural Manitoba.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have a couple of questions about the Art Bank, which I think is an absolutely wonderful idea. I understand from a very careful reading of the annual report that there are 3,000 items currently in the collection, and I am assuming that this includes art in government buildings, but I wonder where else the art is housed.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, work from the Art Bank, I am informed, is all out, and it is all out in government buildings across the province. I did mention, however, in my opening remarks that we will be looking at some work from that Art Bank for the focus on women artists in Women's History Month in October, and I spoke about that, as I have said, in my opening remarks.

Ms. McGifford: The best way to view it is to do a tour of all government buildings and see it. I believe, and I also read in the annual report that last year or in '95-96, 21 pieces of art were purchased. I am wondering who makes the purchases, from where and what criteria are followed in determining whether to make a purchase. Is there a policy governing purchases, that sort of thing?

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Mrs. Vodrey: The minister has a committee to purchase that art. The committee has on it usually--it is a small committee by the way--an artist, at least one artist, community members who may have some special interest in the arts community and usually one MLA. I can say I had the opportunity to do that one year and participated with an interior designer and an artist, and it was very interesting. The committee then goes to galleries, to juried art shows and they attempt to look at decision making representative of all kinds of artists in their visiting, and they make some recommendations to the minister. I would also like to say that some of the dollars allocated are spent in the Winnipeg area but there are also dollars which are spent in the rural areas as well, so that when there is a juried art show or an opportunity in rural Manitoba that we make every effort to also look at purchasing some art from those particular areas as well.

Ms. McGifford: Are all the pieces of art purchased done by Manitoba artists?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, they are all Manitoba artists. That is the one criterion, that the art purchase must be of Manitoba artists.

Ms. McGifford: I understand the minister said there was a variety of art purchased and I took that to mean that there would be some ceramic pieces, there would be some oil paintings and there would be some water colours. I am wondering if there is a conscious effort to have a balanced art collection which includes representational pieces from these various--I do not know whether the correct word is "media" or anyway different materials.

Mrs. Vodrey: I forgot to mention to the member that when this committee goes out they also go out with our arts consultant, so that there is also someone who is able to provide some guidance in terms of what some of the needs might be. When they are looking at the art, they try to find a balance between what the facility needs might be, historical importance of certain artists or artworks, what any gaps may be within our current collection.

Just to follow up on another part of the member's earlier questions, we are getting the collection on the website so that Manitobans can view the collection on the Internet. So, when the member was saying how do we find it, is it just if we have it in that government building, we are making an effort to, in fact, make sure the public can access it.

The art also is rotated. Our art bank collection is rotated, as well, so it is not as if it is a static piece in one place forever, but there is an effort to show the collection to Manitobans and make it available.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, if the minister is ever interested in sending a member of the opposition on the buying expedition, I would very much like to be included. I think it is a great idea that it will soon be on the Internet.

A couple of other questions, I am wondering about the protection of these objects of art and also about the annual budget and whether that varies from year to year and where I can find the annual budget in the Estimates book.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, first of all, in terms of the care and making sure that the work is protected, Government Services has a line in their budget, $8,000, to ensure appropriate framing and insurance, and we provide guidelines in terms of what is required and also the inventory.

The amount in our budget is $27,000. It is found in the operating line of the Arts Branch. Then $8,000 further to that is found in the Government Services budget line, so the total amount is $35,000.

Ms. McGifford: A point of clarification, Mr. Chair, I believe the minister said there was a sum of money found in the operating line in the Estimates book, but I thought she said $27,000, and the figure I read here is $15,000. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I probably was not as specific as I could have been. The member would find it on page 35 of this year's Supplementary Estimates under 2. Other Expenditures. The line is capital. The amount is $35,900 because that also includes expenditures such as computers and so on that would be required.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, actually it was totally my fault. I was looking at the wrong page.

I heard when I was in Brandon that there is some art moving to Brandon, and I wonder if the minister has any information about that.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that the Manitoba Arts Council has an art bank, and their bank is being relocated for a three-year pilot period to the Art Gallery of Southwestern Manitoba.

Ms. McGifford: Is the public of Manitoba the final owners of the Manitoba Arts Council's art bank and the materials therein?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: Does the minister know if these materials will be stored in Brandon or will they be on view?

Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I understand that the art is there for exhibition and education. It is not there for selling.

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Ms. McGifford: No, I did not think it was there for selling. I understand as well that the Art Gallery of Southwestern Manitoba is moving across the street from where it is currently located into a firehall, which is truly a wonderful building, and I think just an absolutely fantastic site for an art gallery. But I am wondering what will happen to these materials from the Manitoba Arts Council's art bank in the interim.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that the art is still at MAC, at the Manitoba Arts Council, and will remain there until the move is complete to the new building, and we will assist to make sure that the conditions are right or that anything special that is required then is available.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, in the annual report I notice that the Arts Branch has consulted with federal agencies on issues like copyright, and I know that copyright is a burning issue for Canadian writers. I wonder what the results of these consultations on copyright have been.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that phase two of the copyright legislation, which is federal legislation, is now law.

Ms. McGifford: Yes, I would like to ask some questions on publishing grant assistance in Publishing Support Grants. First of all, I wanted to ask what kinds of publishers are funded. By which I mean, are both profit and nonprofit publishers funded? Secondly--well, let us leave it at that for now.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand there are 13 commercial publishing houses which we support.

Ms. McGifford: So it is by 13 commercial publishing houses. Those would be publishing houses that, ostensibly at least, are trying to turn a profit. I think we are both aware that most presses in Manitoba are extremely small presses and perform more a public duty than they are really serious business endeavours, because I do not think Turnstone or Pemmican or any of our presses really make a lot of money.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am not sure if the member was asking a question, I was just asking for clarification.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I was not sure either.

Ms. McGifford: I have met with people in the publishing industry, and there seemed to be some concern on the part of publishing people that there may be a move on the part of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship to fund only nonprofit publishers. Since the minister has told me that all of the publishers that are funded are, in fact, commercial publishers, this seems to be a misplaced concern.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am happy to clear that up. I believe it is a misplaced concern. It is a general support to the industry.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister would mind sending me, or have her staff send me, the names of the publishers and the grants that they have received in the past fiscal year?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we will be happy to send you the list.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, the minister could correct me if I am wrong, but I think there was a time, a few years ago, when magazines received some direct funding; that is, funding from publishing support grants as opposed to the Manitoba Arts Council and that this funding was used for a variety of purposes, wage assistance, perhaps, technological assistance. I believe it was used particularly for training and particularly for capital purchases. I think it was also used as marketing for direct mail and perhaps in a few other ways. Am I correct in understanding that this used to be in place and is no longer in place?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that we did fund them at one time, but now that funding is accessed through Manitoba Arts Council. The same kinds of assistance is available through MAC as was available through our grant.

Ms. McGifford: So is the minister telling me that a small magazine, for example, could get money to train, to make capital purchases, and to do marketing from the Manitoba Arts Council? Because that is not my understanding.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the answer is, yes, they can access, and I pointed out earlier this booklet, Art Support, which the member said that she had. I am referencing the '95-96 copy because we do not have '96-97 yet. On page 19 of that report, the member will see periodical publishers' projects and a whole section on writing and publishing in that book.

Ms. McGifford: Well, the minister, having been on the editorial board of a magazine, my understanding was the money we received was not for capital purchases, was not for marketing and was not for training, that the money that we received was for the publication of the magazine to underwrite, because, of course, you do not get back what you need to put out when you are publishing a poetry magazine. My understanding is that marketing, training and capital purchases are not covered by the Manitoba Arts Council.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that there is both project support and operating support, which is both included in this page, which lists the grants which have been given through MAC.

Ms. McGifford: I understand then that small magazines preferred to get their money through Publishing Support Grants and that it worked better and that most of them would like to see this restored. I have met with most of the small magazines in Manitoba, and that seems to be what they would prefer. Most of the editors that I spoke to felt that technological upgrading was extremely important, as is marketing extremely important, that they had not had grants for technological upgrading for a long, long time and that, given the nature of the technological developments with computers and whatnot, they really needed this if they were to continue to be viable and to do their work as they wanted to do it.

Mrs. Vodrey: Well, I think the important thing is that there is funding provided. There is funding which deals with project support and operating support. I believe there only needs to be one mechanism of funding, and there is an accountable mechanism in place at the moment. I think that if the member has some issues that she would like me to be aware of, perhaps in more detail than we have time for today or whatever, I would be happy to talk to her about those. I am quite interested.

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Just as an aside, I attended the Literary Awards on Saturday evening and was really interested in the awards that were given and the number of people nominated for work done by Manitobans and Manitoba publishing companies and so on. So I had an opportunity in that evening to gain some first-hand insight. These issues were not raised to me at that time, but if there is something further that the member would like to let me know about I would be happy to hear from her. As I said in answer to an earlier question, if there is an association or a group of publishers who want to meet with me to express their interests or their concerns or their issues--we talked about it in terms of an annual meeting--then that is certainly something which I am more than happy to do, because I do need to know if there are any concerns.

I am just informed, referring again to the 1990 DeFehr Report, that there was a recommendation for the streamlining of the funding structures. So what we have in place is a structure which does provide some funding, and if there is something further that the member thinks that I should know, then I would be more than happy to spend some time talking with her about it.

Ms. McGifford: Maybe the DeFehr Report was not right about everything. As the minister has pointed out, this would be another reason for an annual meeting with community people where they might put forth their concerns, because I do not think they do that at the Literary Awards. It is not really the forum to start complaining. It is a celebratory evening. So, anyway, I have no more questions on this branch.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 14.2.(e) Arts Branch (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $465,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $120,600--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $4,010,300--pass.

14.2.(f) Public Library Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Ms. McGifford: I wanted to begin by thanking the Public Library Services for their newsletter, which I find both informative and educational, and I think it provides a very valuable service.

I wanted to ask a couple questions stemming from the most recent edition of that newsletter. First of all, I noticed that extension services includes collection support to establish libraries and a basic books-by-mail service to areas not served by a municipally supported library, and I wanted to know what is meant by collection supports.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the answer is yes.

Ms. McGifford: My understanding then is that the extension services--am I correct in understanding that it would provide the collection support to established libraries but only basic book by mail service to areas that do not have a municipally supported library?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that where there is no library, people receive their books by mail. Then there are also 21 travelling libraries, and those books can be displayed in store fronts, or other opportunities, so that people of the community can then have access to those books.

Ms. McGifford: But what I was trying to get at was in those communities that do not have a library, my reading of the information from the Public Library Services Newsletter is that those people can only receive books and that they are not in line to receive the other materials that a library might house, for example, video tapes, sound tapes.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand, I am informed, that they can in fact receive video tapes, they can in fact receive the special collections, the talking books, the Francophone books or what is available.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder why the newsletter then uses the expression "basic books" by mail service to areas not served by a municipally supported library? Because that certainly implies to me that they could only get books and not other materials.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that our best assessment is that they have used the term "books" to refer to collection.

Ms. McGifford: So, then, in fact the minister can assure me that all the materials in a library are accessible to all Manitobans, regardless of where individual Manitobans live?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that that is, in fact, correct.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me, please, how many communities in Manitoba are not served by a municipally supported library, and how many are?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am not sure if I am trying to answer this the wrong way around in terms of how many do not have library services. I am informed that we have 49 regional libraries. That means 86 outlets. If then a community does not have access to those, they would be served by the extension services.

Ms. McGifford: Is the province currently taking responsibility, financial or otherwise, for encouraging the development of more libraries in the province? Could the minister give me some details if the answer to the question is yes.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that there have been a couple of new libraries last year and I believe this year. We are just looking for the names of where those libraries are. We do assist communities with feasibility studies, but I am informed that it is in fact a local decision. So we can assist them again with the feasibility study, but they need to make a local decision. Then we can attempt to assist in terms of service.

The new libraries established in 1996, the member may know, the R.M. of Coldwell established the Pauline Johnson Library in Lundar; the R.M. of Mossey River joined the Parkland Regional Library; in 1997 the R.M. of Eriksdale established a public library, and I understand that was opened in April; and the R.M. of Minitonas has joined the Parkland Regional Library.

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Ms. McGifford: When these new libraries are opened, is the municipality responsible for purchasing the books, tapes, videos, whatever materials go into that library, or does the province provide financial assistance via a grant?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that on the operating side, where the municipality comes up with a minimum of $3.75 per capita, we will match that per capita. If they come up with more than $3.75 per capita, we will continue matching that, and we will raise our matching grant up to a maximum of $7.50 per capita in that municipality. We also provide a one-time-only establishment grant of $5,000. Then every year we provide a $5,000 grant for book collections, and that goes to each of the 86 outlets that we have.

Ms. McGifford: I am sure the minister agrees that there is no replacement for a hands-on library and that books by mail are better than not having books, but to be able to go into a library, especially for a child, to explore the library, to actually touch books, to thumb through books is a very important step in developing one's interest in the world of reading. With this in mind, I wanted to ask the minister if she could tell me how many reserves in Manitoba have libraries.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would certainly agree on the importance of libraries for communities. I chaired our province's task force on literacy and had a chance to travel the province to look at the issues of literacy, stimulation of literacy, literacy training, and so on, across the province and the value of books to communities. I also am told that sometimes it is difficult where municipalities have the benefit of the travelling library, or extension services; then sometimes that may be a disincentive to actually make the commitment towards a local outlet. So sometimes it is really very difficult to decide it. It is almost like a Catch-22. We want to make sure that there is a provision. That provision may in fact be what the community, the local decision-making says that it wants, and it is not prepared to look at some of the other options.

In terms of the reserves, I am told that we fund one library. It is on a pilot basis at Norway House. We provide a $9,000 grant, and it is to their literacy and cultural centre. I understand that is a start. As the member knows there is also federal funding which flows to those communities as well.

Ms. McGifford: The member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) tells me that all the reserves in his community have libraries. I wonder if the minister could tell me, since she cited the one in Norway House, how the libraries on the reserves in the member for Emerson's community are funded.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that those libraries would be as a result of federal funds. It would also be a local decision-making process of determining whether they wish to have a library or a recreation centre or perhaps other choices that the community has decided to make.

Ms. McGifford: I am told by my northern colleagues that, as one moves north in Manitoba, books and libraries become scarcer and scarcer. The minister probably knows this, but I just point this out to her for her attention. It may be an area that she wants to take a look at as she becomes more and more familiar with her new portfolio.

During the Estimates on Urban Affairs, I joined the minister and the critic one day and asked the Minister for Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) if his department was considering amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act, which would allow the City of Winnipeg to levy a charge for library cards. He said unequivocally that he was not considering such a change. I would like to ask the minister today if she would tell me her department's view of a fee for library cards. I ask this question because I am concerned, and I believe in vigilance, and I also ask it on behalf of the Friends of the Winnipeg Public Library.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, our position is that we do not intend to amend The City of Winnipeg Act to allow charging a user fee for library membership. I understand that during the 1996 Estimates the former minister was asked if he intended to stand by this, and I understand last year the minister also responded that the government did not intend to amend The City of Winnipeg Act to allow the Winnipeg Public Library to charge for library membership fees, and I share his opinion.

Ms. McGifford: I am pleased to hear that this minister shares the view of the former minister, and that we have it on the record that Culture, Heritage and Citizenship does not support user fees or a charge for library cards in the city of Winnipeg.

I have read the Quality and Access: The Future of Public Libraries in Manitoba document and this 1994 report set certain goals--quality, service and access--and includes several objectives and action steps that are vital in order to realize the fulfilment of these goals.

Last year, I asked the minister for an update on the implementation of this report which he provided to me, and I wanted to ask about two of the recommendations that came in the update. First of all, recommendation two--starting with that one--was to encourage the formation of larger regional libraries. The document goes on to say that a provincial library plan has been developed to provide an integrated library system for Manitoba libraries. I could actually read from the documents, but perhaps I could just ask my question. All this information is written in the conditional. It is replete with the use of "was" and "would" and that kind of disturbs me.

So I would like to know if the plan has been developed, and if it has been, I would like to know about the implementation of the plan. I cannot find the document.

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that our goal is access, not necessarily through the regionalization but rather through automation. A provincial library plan has been developed to provide an integrated library system for Manitoba libraries, and we believe that this will ensure that rural and northern communities have the same level of library and information service that is available to urban Manitobans. The objective, again, was to make sure that the access through automation was such that I think it is probably a more modern view and way to access what libraries are offering.

Ms. McGifford: Could the minister elaborate on what she means by make available through automation?

Mrs. Vodrey: It has been to develop and to encourage electronic access to the world information resources and services for all Manitobans. So, as part of the plan, Manitoba Public Libraries, an integrated provincial library system, the Manitoba Public Libraries Information Network, MAPLIN, has been designed and developed. If the member would like some further detail on--[interjection] Okay. I am informed, Mr. Chair, that there are four parts to this. There is the electronic catalogue, there is the automated rural system, there is the automated public library system, and then there is MAPLIN, which links them, and then also we are looking to have access to the Internet.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, so this would link a library, for example, in northern Manitoba to the library services in Brandon?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, that is correct.

Ms. McGifford: So a person in Thompson, for example, would be able to electronically peruse the collection in Brandon and know what he or she wanted and request that material, which would be subsequently sent?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we are moving along as quickly as we can. I understand what they are able to do is to look at the holdings at the moment and then the next step will be to be able to order what they find in that catalogue.

Ms. McGifford: So the person in Thompson can look but cannot get the material?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, they can look. It is an easy preview in terms of what is there. They would have to order it in terms of the usual system where they would actually receive it through the usual method of transportation, because we cannot transmit the holding electronically yet, but they can at least access the holding and know it is available and what they want to order.

Ms. McGifford: I am not very good with computers, so I am a little confused still. So is the ultimate goal to enable the person in Thompson, which we are using merely as an example here, to get what that that person cannot get now?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is complex, this automated area. I understand the way it works is that now a person in, for example, Thompson could at least look at the holdings, which would not have been possible before because it would have been very hard to determine what was available. At the moment they cannot electronically put a hold on it. That still has to be done through the usual methods of using the phone, and the transportation being the usual method, so we still have to ship the book.

Ms. McGifford: So it replaces the old card catalogue and presumably is more up to date because as new items come in they are more easily entered into the collection. Then I imagine some of the challenges faced are, first of all, financial ones in supplying, both hard and software, but also challenges in training persons in the library to use these, so that they can in turn give advice to individuals and to the public who come in and need to use this technology.

Mrs. Vodrey: The automation is of the catalogue and the circulation which would be very helpful. It is very likely that it would also eventually save money, because you would not have to have the same item in every library where people could know where it was and it is not just sitting there, so eventually the goal would then be to simply buy and also be able to share that piece of information.

Ms. McGifford: I think it must be quite challenging for some of the persons working in libraries to assist the public who are probably--many of whom especially as we go further north who are not familiar with the technology must be quite overwhelmed by this equipment.

Are there regular training programs or grants or assistance to enable personnel in the various libraries throughout the province to update their skills with the technology?

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Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that there are three ways that we attempt to assist. The first Red River Community College has an adult education program for library technicians, then there is also onsite professional development that we provide with our consultants. I understand there has been about 130 visits. Then we also sponsor conferences during the year to assist.

Ms. McGifford: The first recommendation in the update that the minister sent me and according to this information the first recommendation was to strengthen and update the Manitoba Public Libraries Act. I think we all know that this work has not been done, and I wonder if the minister could explain how and why the act was intended to be amended and provide some information about the progress of the amendments.

I guess I want to add here that I have heard reports from individuals that what really needs to be done is for the entire act to be scrapped and replaced with a more contemporary act, one which would take into consideration the scope of modern technological advances and the kind of thing that the minister and I have just been discussing. I believe there are several good models in North America. I think particularly there is an excellent model in Colorado, anyway just putting those points out to the minister.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that the act is, in fact, a very old one, and there does seem to be a need to look at it. At the moment, we are looking at the regulations.

I cannot make a commitment that we will be reviewing the act specifically this year or when new legislation could be possibly tabled, but I will say that it certainly seems to me that there is a need to look at the act. I will undertake to determine how I might be able to do that in the next while.

Ms. McGifford: I want to table a letter and read it into the record. It is a letter of resignation from the Public Library Advisory Board, and I want to read it and then ask the minister some questions about the contents of the letter. The letter was sent to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and reads:

Dear Mrs. Vodrey: When I was appointed to the Public Library Advisory Board last June, I was delighted. I viewed it as an opportunity to be of service to the library community and to the general public of Manitoba. It is with regret, therefore, that I tender my resignation from that board for the following reasons:

(1) The membership of the present board lacks professional education and experience to carry out the recommendations of the previous PLAB, specifically that a new public library act be drafted.

(2) No member of the Manitoba Library Association, specifically designated to represent the wishes of the Manitoba Library Association, has been appointed to the PLAB, a second recommendation of the previous board.

(3) The chair of the present PLAB, a nonprofessional librarian, was appointed by your predecessor in spite of the fact that the present Public Libraries Act, pages 3-25, states that the board appoints its own chair for a period of one year.

(4) No member appointed by the Senate of the University of Manitoba has been included in the present board; see The Public Libraries Act, page 2, Section 2(1).

(5) Although appointed last June, the present PLAB did not meet until October. To date, it has accomplished nothing.

(6) It appears to me that the unprofessional and totally inappropriate board was appointed deliberately in order to forestall real library developments in this province.

(7) The properly constituted board would have been in a position to apply to the Carnegie Foundation or other library-granting agencies for funds to facilitate travel throughout the province and to consult with rural Manitobans about an up-to-date public library act. British Columbia receives such a grant and drafted a workable act. No grant agency will entertain a proposal from an unqualified and nonprofessional board.

Recently, upon request, we wrote an article for the Winnipeg Free Press. It was radically altered for publication. For your information, I enclose the original article that I wrote, Materials describing the system the American public library association deems the best statewide network in the U.S. We are pitifully behind in Manitoba. Given the lack of will and co-operation on the part of Manitoba libraries and the indifference of both levels of government, I cannot foresee significant progress taking place in Manitoba at this time. Had an appropriate PLAB been appointed, there would have been a chance. In my view, Manitobans are being shortchanged on a very important issue in this information age. Because of the situation I have just outlined, I ask you to accept my resignation.

And the letter is signed, Yours truly, Kathryn Dean.

Indeed, given this letter, it is not surprising that the Public Library Advisory Board has been unable to implement the recommendations of the 1994 report. I would like to ask the minister some questions with regard to this letter and just check some of the facts, first of all. I think the first statement about the membership lacking professional education really is a matter of judgment, and what constitutes professional education and experience may well be a matter of opinion and that will vary from person to person. But there are some very definite statements here, and the second one says that no member of the Manitoba Library Association has been appointed to the Public Library Advisory Board, and I wanted to ask the minister if this is indeed the case.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, well, let me start out my comments by saying we discussed this in Question Period one day, and I made it clear at that point that it is always regretful to receive a resignation where someone appears to feel disgruntled in some way with the efforts of colleagues and the efforts of a board that they are serving on. So it was with regret that I accepted the resignation of Ms. Dean. I also believe that there is some comment to be made on the other side to her concerns, and I will endeavour to do that through the questioning, but I think overall it is important to put on the record to thank her for the time that she did spend. She was a well-intentioned appointee, and I am sorry that as a result of a long career--I understand she has had a very long career in this area--and so as a result of quite a long career, this is not now a suitable appointment for her. So it is with regret that I accept her resignation.

I will comment on the first issue in terms of not a member from the Manitoba Library Association. I understand that is not a specific requirement; however, I have just written to the Senate of the University of Manitoba for their representative to be nominated. When I receive their nomination, it may be that person will be a professionally trained librarian and may be a Bachelor of Library Science when they appoint their nominee. That person may in fact belong to this association. So I think the first step is the appointment of the Senate, and that the Senate, I am sure, will in fact comply and make that nomination.

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Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, and contrary to what the minister says, I do not think we discussed it in Question Period. We do not get to discuss, we get to ask questions which are very infrequently answered. So I do not consider, with all due respect, that we did discuss the matter. I think it is also extremely important to make the point that Kathryn Dean is a very, very qualified professional librarian who was head of research at University of Manitoba for years and years. Her credentials are impeccable. She is not only well intentioned--a phrase which I think rather demeans Ms. Dean--she is an extremely, extremely qualified librarian. Actually as well--

Mrs. Vodrey: On a point of order, Mr. Chair. I think it is very important to not have the member leave any assertion on the record that there was an attempt to in any way discredit the writer of the letter. That is absolutely not true. I know if the member reflects on my remarks and has a chance to read my remarks she will see in fact that I provided recognition in my remarks of the very long and distinguished career of Kathryn Dean. I understand in addition to that she is also often a speaker. So if the member somehow took exception to the remarks made, I feel that those comments certainly deserved a point of order where they could be clarified.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): This is not a point of order. This is a dispute of the facts.

Mrs. Vodrey: I believe I answered that at the moment that is not the case, but that I will not be looking to make a--there is not a requirement for that, is my understanding, and secondly, I said that when the senate does make their recommendation for appointment, that person may in fact be a member, so I am awaiting the appointing of the senate to determine what additional qualifications. It may be, as I said in my answer, that appointment will also bolster what has been identified by Ms. Dean, and I am not necessarily accepting totally, but that there may be some additional professional library qualifications that will come with the appointment from the senate. So in fact we may be able to deal with three very important issues through that appointment.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I do understand that according to The Manitoba Public Libraries Act, it is not a requirement that the board include a member of the Manitoba Library Association. However, I further understand that it was a recommendation of the previous Public Library Advisory Board that a member of the Manitoba Library Association be included in the board.

I suppose what concerns me is that there seems to be not only not much respect shown for the recommendations of the previous Public Library Advisory Board, but also, according to the minister here today, a real violation of The Public Libraries Act in there not being a member from the senate of the University of Manitoba having been included in the board. I wonder if we could also discuss the question of the chair of the present Public Library Advisory Board, who is, as Ms. Dean says, a nonprofessional librarian, but furthermore was appointed by the former Minister of Culture, although The Public Library Act states that the board should appoint its own chair.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I just want to try and change the tone of this discussion somewhat because it is sounding very negative, very as if somehow there is a plot, and that is certainly not the case. Now, perhaps that is just the way it is sounding to me, and the member is relying heavily on the comments of one individual. So I want to stress, first of all, that this is an important issue, and that these are important decisions to be made, which I am acting upon and which I have already taken steps to act upon.

Let me say in the terms of the chair, no attempt at a deliberate violation there. The issue, I understand, as has been told me, is that we appoint six members. Four had terms which were completed, and that this measure was an interim measure in an attempt to deal with the chair for the interim and that by this fall, when the appointments are complete, we will in fact have that chair appointed following the legislation by having the members appoint a chair. So the corrective measures are in place, and have begun to be acted upon.

(Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I think it is very important, for those people who are currently serving on this board, not to in any way discredit those people, and not in any way to make it a kind of negative force in which people then do not want to participate. I would prefer to, in our discussion, point out a positive force, a positive action and an effort to make sure that we are in compliance. We are doing the right thing. I think it is important.

Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I think it is very important for ministers to abide by the acts that are created, and it seems to me the minister, this minister, has used the word "negative," and I think that what I am saying is an act that was very slackly enforced. So I would talk about slackness and incompetence as opposed to saying that there was a deliberate plot or perhaps merely not caring, not valuing this particular board enough.

I certainly value the work of the board. At the same time, without devaluing that work, I think it is extremely important for the minister, the former minister--none of this is directed against the current minister--I think it was very important and it was incumbent upon the former minister to abide by the act that was his responsibility to enforce. So I just want to put that on the record too. Certainly, I do not mean to criticize any of these people. I have been in public service long enough and know how it can be thankless at times, and I applaud them for the work they are doing. Certainly I do.

Anyway, I would like to ask the minister if she could provide dates of the meetings that the board has had since June 1996.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that there is no legislative requirement for the number of board meetings. The board has traditionally met five to six times a year. The board has met twice since the appointment of new board members. They met on October 17, 1996, and on November 25, 1996.

Ms. McGifford: Has the board, Mr. Chair, met since November 25, 1996?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, my understanding is that they have not met.

* (1750)

Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister: Who convenes meetings of the board? It seems the minister had told me a couple of minutes ago that the board traditionally meets five or six times a year. I know the new board members were appointed in June of 1996. It is the something of May, the 8th of May, I believe, and there have been two meetings. So that seems to be quite a departure from tradition.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand that there was an orientation meeting in June, that the group also met with the minister in the fall, and that there have been two meetings since. I understand that the accusations levelled in this letter have had some disruptive effect. The chair is the person who does call the meetings, and I understand that some of the negative accusations have caused some disruption. I am very hopeful that with the appointment from the Senate and with some supports that we can get this board really back on the rails and functioning.

That is my point about wanting to balance and recognize comments which come from individuals where they have some concerns about the boards. I think that has to be taken very seriously, but I think always those concerns have to be balanced with also some of the efforts of the individuals concerned and where the chair was appointed as an interim measure, I understand, of necessity. I would assume that would have been clear to the members and that we will be putting a new chair, according to the legislation, that they will name their chair in place in the fall, that it is important to get on with the work, that it is important to focus on some of the positive efforts which are needed to be done.

So with our discussion today I hope that what I have been able to put on the record will, in fact, positively reinforce the work of this group, will also let this group know of my level of seriousness for the work that they do.

I visited the university libraries and the several collections and areas. I was out just a couple of weeks ago. I am very interested in a number of the kinds of work that is done by our libraries, and I can see the importance of this Public Library Advisory Board. So in putting my remarks on the record, I want to make it clear how important it is and how I feel it is important, as I said, to balance concerns raised with also attempting to support a continuing operation, and steps have been taken to do that.

I feel that is really important because there has been discussion that we have had in terms of violation of legislation and sloppiness. There has been all kinds of allegations, and I understand the member's obligation to bring forward concerns that have been raised to her. But in doing so, I feel as minister it is very important to, on the other side, make sure that all points are known.

I understand, too, that there was no Public Library Advisory Board for 20 years prior to my colleague, now the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), calling it together in 1989. So I do not want it to stand on the record in any way that this government has not had a commitment, because that is simply not the case.

Ms. McGifford: I am pleased to hear that the minister recognizes that my position as the critic is to bring concerns to the Legislature, and I am simply doing this. I do not like the idea that seems to be generated here that my remarks proceed from negativity rather than from a sense of duty and responsibility, from which they indeed do proceed.

I guess I do not quite understand why the chair of the Public Library Advisory Board has not called a meeting. Because of disruptive remarks? This seems to be a way of blaming the messenger, and, frankly, I do not think it works. I am very glad to hear that the minister is on the record and has made a commitment to revitalize the board. I gather that in her efforts to revitalize the board, she will try to create a board which will certainly honour the current Public Libraries Act and at the same time work towards creating a new public library act, which the minister has also acknowledged is probably needed in the province of Manitoba.

Having said that, I wanted to ask a question about library grants to the City of Winnipeg. I understand that the library grants to the City of Winnipeg for 1995-96 were $1,761,900. I wanted to ask the minister if this grant was designated for a specific purpose or whether it is a no-strings-attached kind of grant.

Mrs. Vodrey: I understand for this grant, it is basically what would be considered a no-strings-attached grant, in the member's words. However, we do require an annual report which I think is appropriate. We also are interested in the sharing that is possible, so though it could be classified as the term "no strings," there is, in fact, some expectation which I think is reasonable. Again, I understand in more specific terms, it is based on receipt and review of application and audited financial statement, an annual report and annual statistics. So there is, in fact, a reporting requirement for this.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me how the grant figure is arrived at. Is it a per-capita basis, or is there some other way of weighing and measuring the grant?

Mrs. Vodrey: The grant and financial assistance is established under The Public Libraries Act and The City of Winnipeg Act. It is based on a formula. The formula is 11 percent of the operating budget of the Winnipeg Public Library, and it is to a maximum of $1,910,100. So that is the formula that is in use.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister could tell me how the grant to the City of Winnipeg, to the Winnipeg Public Library, compares to grants made in other jurisdictions across the country. I suppose the question is a little unclear, but I wonder if the minister would like to attempt it anyway.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): The hour being after 6 p.m., as agreed, this House is adjourned and stands adjourned, as previously agreed, until Monday at 1:30 p.m.