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The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): We will bring the committee meeting to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1. Administration and Finance (d) Research and Planning (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 24 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Chairperson, I am going to jump right in to questions about some of the information in the Supplementary Estimates book and the annual reports. First of all, I wanted to get some explanation of what has happened with the staffing in this branch, the Residential Tenancies Branch. It seems like there has been a transfer of staff from Professional/Technical to Administrative Support staff from last year, and I am wondering how this is affecting the branch or what the reasons are behind this, what kind of staff positions are these and that type of thing.

Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Is my honourable colleague referring to page 26 of the Supplementary Legislative Review?

Ms. Cerilli: That is correct.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the department picked up a secretarial position from Trust and Loan in the Administrative and Support which accounts for one staff year position, moving from 26 to 29. At this point in time we cannot account for the balance, and we undertake to research that and advise my honourable colleague.

Ms. Cerilli: Is it, though, Professional/Technical, the category of the inspectors in the branch? I would be quite concerned to learn that the inspectors' number has gone down, so I wonder if you could confirm that, the number of inspectors. I think the last time we did those Estimates there were two or three, which is not very many for a province this size, so I am wondering if you could clarify that for me.

Mr. Radcliffe: My honourable colleague is correct that the officers are in the Professional/Technical, and I am advised by the department that there has been no change.

Ms. Cerilli: So the number of staff in the department that have responsibility for doing inspections of rental properties is how many?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised there are three employees in that category.

Ms. Cerilli: Just to confirm. Three full time? Is that all that they do, or do they have other duties that they are responsible for?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised there are two full time in Winnipeg and one person who has split responsibility between Brandon and Thompson.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to look at the annual reports then, because there are some interesting trends in this area of inspection with the annual reports--if I can find the page now. I am looking for the area in the report that shows--maybe I am looking in the wrong report, maybe I should be looking in the Residential Tenancies Branch report. The most recent one I have is from '95. Is that the most recent annual report?

Mr. Radcliffe: For the branch is the 1995 annual report.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wanting some information about the number of inspections that are being done in the province on residential rental properties. Maybe the minister and his staff could guide me to the--I thought I had the page marked here. I am wanting to get an update for the last couple of years since this report on the inspections that have been completed.

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Mr. Radcliffe: For my honourable friend's guidance, I would direct her to page 4 which covers inspections on repairs. This is page 4 of the--[interjection] Yes, good. We are looking at 148 inspections for '95 and 169 for '94. That was the carry forward, and then the totals are indicated there--694 and 690.

Ms. Cerilli: Do you have information with you so that we could bring this chart up to date for '96--I guess you do not have much for '97 yet--but just to see if there is information available for '96.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that this is being compiled as we speak.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. Generally then, so far there is a trend with quite a reduction in the number of active inspections between '94 and '95, a reduction of more than 20 inspections. Is that continuing in that direction, the number of active inspections?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the figures of 148 for '94 and 123 for '95 are the active carry-over files that are existing right now that are still open, and this would correspond with the same sort of gap that you would find going into those two respective years, the figures of 148 and 169 a significant drop but the same relationship to each other.

Ms. Cerilli: The figures, I guess, that are more significant are the ones that have been processed. So we would have to do some quick--to try and compare the ones received and the ones processed. I am trying to look at the volume of inspections that are being done in the branch to see what the trends are there and to see the ones that are actually being completed in a given year, to look at the volume there, and see if there are trends to see if there are more inspections being done and completed in a given year, or fewer.

Mr. Radcliffe: The only thing I can reflect upon at this point would be the 525 figure for processed files in Winnipeg in 1995 would indicate over 496 that there were more files processed in that period of time in that category in repairs in Winnipeg. There would be a drop in Brandon and an increase in Thompson, and for an overall active pending file drop of 20 files, 25 files.

Ms. Cerilli: The question I am asking though is how does this compare with where we are now. Now we are in '97, so '94 is getting to be quite awhile ago, so that is why I am asking just for general trends in this area, because we do not have the annual reports for the more recent years.

Mr. Radcliffe: I can advise my honourable colleague that the department advises that there have been a similar number of complaints coming in. There has not really been a significant variation in the number, but without the actual figures in front of us we would hesitate to say anything more definitive than that.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. One of the other areas I want to spend some time on is how this is going to be affected by the new computerized system that is being brought forward. There is one system, I understand, that is going to be on the Internet to be accessed by both tenants and landlords that will have a registry of complaints against landlords and against tenants when there are complaints that have been processed. It is like a registry. I am wondering if that will also include this type of information in terms of repair orders against a landlord.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the department is looking at--

Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, I realize you just got an update bulletin from EMO. I am wondering if you want to read it into the record in terms of updating the committee. It does not look like it is that long, so we would all get the information and we could carry on.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Sure, I can do that.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Media update, flood of '97. Manitoba Natural Resources Water Resources branch reports the levels of the Red River rose from less than l inch at Morris to 0.8 feet at Ste. Agathe and half a foot at St. Adolphe since yesterday. Strong north winds made it difficult to obtain accurate river readings this morning and caused unusual changes in the water levels due to wind and wave action. There is wave action on the valley town ring dikes, but no problems have occurred and none are expected.

Flooding at Ste. Agathe is due to water entering the town from the west across the railway tracks. Ste. Agathe does not have a ring dike due to its relatively high elevation.

At Emerson, the Red River has fallen slightly and only small rises are expected at Letellier and St. Jean Baptiste.

Predicted peak levels for the Red River have been revised downward by 1 foot at Morris and St. Adolphe and half a foot at Ste. Agathe. Crests, peak water level dates are difficult to define exactly because the crest will be broad with levels remaining virtually unchanged for about five days near the crest. A crest is expected at Morris May 1 to May 5, at the floodway inlet May 2 to May 7, and in Selkirk May 4 to May 9.

In the city of Winnipeg the crest will likely be a little earlier, between May 1 to May 3, due to operation of the Portage diversion and the Red River Floodway. Virtually all Assiniboine River flows at Portage la Prairie will be diverted to keep levels in downtown Winnipeg from exceeding 24.5 feet.

Most smaller streams in the Red River Valley and eastward have crested but remain very high with considerable flooding of farmland. The Seine River at Grande Pointe has been rising slowly in recent days due to backup from high water levels in the Red River Floodway. Levels are likely to rise a further 3 to 4 inches. Weather conditions are favourable for the next five days with little rain expected and lighter winds expected.

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Mr. Radcliffe: We were talking about the implementation of some technology, computerizing a database of a registry for tenants and for landlords for work orders or repair orders. I am advised that the department is still reviewing both the implementation and the choice of a database. Nothing has been implemented at this point in time. This will of course have no effect on the number of complaints received but, in fact, there has been nothing implemented to date.

Ms. Cerilli: My question was then, if the information about repair orders will be available on this program?

Mr. Radcliffe: The intention is that all the orders of the director would ultimately be put on the database.

Ms. Cerilli: Then I just want to clarify, going from the annual report again from '95 for the branch, the next section is Tenancy Agreements, and I am not quite clear if these then are the results of, again, complaint driven or complaints from tenants about their tenancy agreements, and it is the same type of report as with the repair orders.

Mr. Radcliffe: I can advise my honourable friend that in fact these are all complaint driven, and the issue of tenancy agreements does pertain to the rental agreements between the landlord and the tenant.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to make a suggestion then, because the way that the annual report is laid out, nowhere on here does it say anything that these are complaints. If you read the narrative, I do not even think there it talks about complaints. It talks about files. It talks about the activities of the branch, and it does not really clarify that these are the different areas that the complaints are dealt with in the department. They could be tenants calling with concerns about repairs, about the conflicts with their landlord in terms of their tenancy agreements, in terms of notices being given for vacating the suite, or whatever. The same--you know, orders of possession, I guess that one is more clear, but I think that that could be made more clear in this report.

Mr. Radcliffe: A point well taken.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I am wanting to ask then, while we are talking about the new program, which I support very much, to have this information available both to landlords and tenants through the Internet to sort of help with identifying problem landlords as well as problem tenants, but I have kind of been mystified why in the appropriations for this branch under Computer Related, there is nothing in the budget for last year or for this year. It seems like this would involve some additional expense in terms of computer-related expenses. I wonder if the minister could explain this?

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Radcliffe: I would direct my honourable colleague's attention to Supplies and Services. There have been a number of savings in the operating budget. The computer development will be drawn from those areas of the department's budget.

Ms. Cerilli: Could the minister clarify, then, the cost for this computerization and tell me a little bit about the time line for it? I know that I was at a meeting where there was a presentation by staff from the Residential Tenancies Branch, and my understanding from that meeting was that this was something that was going to be up and running fairly soon, so I am wanting to get those two things clarified, the cost and the time frame for the program.

Mr. Radcliffe: I can advise my honourable colleague that the target for implementation for this database will be probably September of '97. That is the estimated time, but there could be stalls and delays in the development of the program. The department does not, at this point, have a figure that they feel comfortable giving as to cost at this point.

The development of the database and the program for the registry of the complaints is involved with some other technological advances that the department is also working on, so that it is hard to isolate in this particular area right now.

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Ms. Cerilli: Two things, then, following up from that; first of all, the program or system for dealing with disputes and complaints now, that must be computerized in the department. When staff take information from landlords or tenants, either over the phone or the information is sent in, is that information not input into a computer?

I have seen some of the forms that are used. I am wondering if that information is not at this point being computerized and if that is something that is going to also be part of this, if it is going to be automatic, that the information would be on sort of a template that would be on a screen and just inputted. The forms would be inputted directly into the computer, and all that would be automatically then put into a database. I would have thought that would have occurred already, given the age that we are in and a system like this, so I would like some explanation if that is the case or not.

The other thing I was going to ask in terms of follow-up is, what is delaying the implementation of the program?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am told that, in fact, there is some word processing capacity right now, but the delay has been caused by trying to design the retrieval system for the database. I get very quickly beyond my competence level at this point in time. This issue is at the design stage of trying to figure out the different language.

I would also add to my honourable colleague that there are some concerns on privacy that the department is considering, as well, at this point in time. They want to ensure that there is privacy, that there be thresholds of information people will be allowed to have access to and others that there will not be.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister provide a little bit more information on that issue of privacy? What are the concerns? I know that when I heard the presentation, there was some discussion around this issue, more particularly as it pertains to tenants. I am wondering how that is being dealt with and what the concerns are.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would advise that the issue is to protect tenants if there should be a situation of somebody being stalked, so as not to reveal the private address of a tenant through being able to research this database.

Ms. Cerilli: This is of particular interest to my colleague the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) who has been dealing with the privacy issues around the SmartHealth program. We are now discussing a program that is being implemented in the Residential Tenancies Branch that is going to computerize both complaints from landlords about tenants as well as from tenants about landlords on repairs or tenants who do not pay their rent, move from place to place and that kind of thing. There are some issues around privacy for tenants, particularly if they are being harassed and stalked or if they are moving from a violent domestic relationship, that type of thing.

So I appreciate that those concerns are being dealt with. Is this one of the areas that has also then sort of slowed down the implementation of this program? When can we expect that these matters will be resolved?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that this is an issue. It is not the preponderant issue. The technological issue of recovery is the major issue that is slowing the implementation down, but this is one of the issues that is being considered.

Ms. Cerilli: In that vein, I am wondering what groups in the community the minister and his staff have consulted with around this whole area of privacy with respect to this computerized program.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I am advised that the department is working with two landlord groups that are advising the director. There is also a group of tenants from west Broadway that is involved. In addition, as a third group, there is an ad hoc landlord and tenant group which is working with the director.

Ms. Cerilli: Specifically on the privacy issues, though, I am wondering if you have contacted an organization like the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties that have been doing some work specific to privacy.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would advise my honourable colleague that there has been no contact to MARL, but there has been some contact to departmental legal counsel on the issue.

Ms. Cerilli: I might suggest you do that then with MARL. I mean, they have always been interested in these types of issues. I am also wondering if this program will be subject to the proposed legislation on privacy that is going to be coming from Culture and Heritage.

Mr. Radcliffe: Yes.

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Ms. Cerilli: Will this program, computerized information, also include the inspection information from the City of Winnipeg or other municipality departments that deal with communities other than Brandon and Thompson? How will information from the Manitoba Housing Authority be included, and will that be included?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that Manitoba Housing is considered just like any other landlord in this milieu, and so, therefore, any orders against Manitoba Housing would be put on the record. Further, if there are any municipalities other than the three indicated who have repair orders or work orders of any sort, they can be filed with the director, and then they become an order of the director.

Ms. Cerilli: I was hoping that it would have been better than that. I know this has been a long-standing issue that we have discussed previously in these Estimates; that is, having automatic referral of all the inspection orders from the City of Winnipeg. It has been something that the chief health inspector at the City of Winnipeg previously has been open to.

So I am wondering if the City of Winnipeg knows about this new computerized program with the Residential Tenancies Branch and if they are interested in having all of their inspection orders and, I guess, judgments filed with this program.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the department has been in touch with the City of Winnipeg on this issue. They have told the chief health inspector of the operation of the scheme. We have no authority to make the registration of the City of Winnipeg orders compulsory, but there is the availability if the city wishes to voluntarily register their orders on this proposal.

Ms. Cerilli: Is that something that you are encouraging, because it seems for this system really to be truly a reflection of the situation for Residential Tenancies properties in the province, that municipalities need to be involved, or you are only going to get a very small part of the picture.

So is that something that is being pursued? Even if it is phase two, I am all for getting the program up and running and then having the municipalities have their information inputted, but it seems to me that to get a full picture, you need to have that information.

Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, it is being encouraged. There have been a number of meetings between the department and the city at the initiative of the department. The communication coming back to the department is that this is what will be the result, as my honourable colleague has outlined.

Ms. Cerilli: That is good news. I am glad about that. I am just wanting to clarify then, I was saying how the City of Winnipeg has the majority of the responsibility in this area, that they are the first line in terms of the health inspectors to deal with the vast majority of the calls.

So I am wondering if we could get some information to sort of supplement the information in the annual report from the branch just to indicate how many, generally, orders or requests for inspection on repairs there are from the city at the city level for their health inspectors to deal with.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised, Mr. Chair, at the present time, that we are not tracking the city of Winnipeg independently, but this is something that we could do. I have no problem doing that in the future, and we could advise my honourable colleague.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, again, I think that it makes sense to have that information. I can understand if the staff do not have it here right now, but I would be interested in that, to get the full picture of just how large the database could be and the number of tenants and landlords that could be potentially involved. I do not know if we looked at some of the stats that we have here, I mean, there could be a number here for the same property or the same landlords, so definitely there would be, I think, overlap between the information for the city and the province.

I just want to then move on, still with respect to this new program though. I have something here in my notes that, since 1992, there has been a database available, with a Web page from the provincial government. So the Residential Tenancies program will be accessed through the main Web page for the provincial government. Is that the way that this is going to work?

Mr. Radcliffe: My honourable colleague is correct that in fact the Manitoba government does have a Web page and the proposal is that the access to this information would be through the Residential Tenancies part of the Web page.

Ms. Cerilli: I am sure they could find it through other ways of checking things like tenant or landlord as well as provincial government, but I am wondering how you plan to inform tenants, as well as landlords, that this is going to be available. What strategy do you have for announcing this and ensuring that it is going to be utilized for the benefit of tenants and landlords?

Mr. Radcliffe: I believe that once we have a confidence level that the system is up and working, and working effectively, that this would be something that probably the minister, me or the incumbent in my office, would use as an announcement by way of a press release.

Ms. Cerilli: As well, the people that are going to be listed in the system, would they also be informed specifically? Both the landlords and the tenants that are going to be part of the system, would they be notified that their name is recorded in there as having violated The Residential Tenancies Act in some way or that their previous evictions are noted on the system?

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Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the names of the individuals, be they tenants or landlords, who are subjects of the order of the director at this point in time are public information. There is no specific program in mind, at this point in time, to tell people that their names will be put on the database. The information that they are subject to orders of the director is accessible by the public, at this point in time, and so all we are doing is changing the means by which the information is made available.

Ms. Cerilli: That is interesting. I understand that after five to seven years their information will be taken off this system. I do not know if that currently occurs, but it seems to me that this may be used as a deterrent in some cases because there is much more chance for people to be able to plug into the Internet and access the system than having to go down to a government office somewhere and look up any violators of the act in terms of landlords or tenants. So I am thinking that one of the reasons that this system is so good is that it is going to be much more accessible. So I am wondering, then, if people knew that this is occurring, they might be more inclined to be a good landlord or a good tenant.

The other thing I am wondering is how this system is going to deal with what is often one of the problems with the Residential Tenancies process, is dealing with counterclaims and appeals and how that is going to be shown on this system because ultimately that can take quite a long time for that whole process to work its way through--so if only the initial claim is going to be put on, or it is going to have to wait until there has been the time gone past for any appeal or counterclaims.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the proposal is that there will be a legend which will indicate the status of any particular complaint or issue before the director, and it will indicate whether the issue has been filed, whether it has been heard, how the adjudication is going and whether it has been subject to counterclaim or appeal, and it will be the responsibility of the director to keep this body of information updated.

Ms. Cerilli: I would think that this system will go a way in educating people. I am wondering if there are any plans in the branch to have more information about this process of having The Residential Tenancies Act work for you, so to speak, on the Internet as well, so that tenants or landlords could get information. I know you are providing some additional seminars now, but to have more of that information available over the Internet. You are not understanding what I am saying, so that the process is quite complex for your average tenant in terms of having the act enforced, if they have a complaint against their landlord. Now that you are going to a program of having information on judgments and repair orders and all that available to the public through the Internet, you could also include more information about how the process works, so they will understand this process of having claims, and then a counterclaim, and then an appeal, and then an appeal to the Residential Tenancies Commission, and all the times that are assigned to that. I know there are some fees that go along with that. Having all of that available on there will also, I think, really help, so I am wondering if that has been considered.

Mr. Radcliffe: I would advise, Mr. Chairman, that the department will be putting a guidebook on the Web page outlining all the process that my honourable colleague is referring to. There is a sample right now, and this will be analysed, expanded and reflected upon to make sure that it does cover the process.

Ms. Cerilli: That is good as well.

Is there also going to be some availability for the telephone, or through telephoning to get access to this information about the computerized system? Not the process, but back to dealing with the record of judgments and complaints.

Mr. Radcliffe: The actual registration.

Ms. Cerilli: Right.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that there is some discussion going on right now with regard to telephone access, and that there would be, where appropriate, voice recognition on the database so that individuals can access by the telephone.

Ms. Cerilli: Another good thing, since a lot of people are not going to have access to computers or the Internet, particularly a lot of people who rent.

I wanted to find out too, if the information on property managers, caretakers, will differentiate in terms of specific properties. There could be one property management company that has a number of properties. How are you going to deal with this problem?

I know that I have dealt with cases from people that have called me where this is often an issue with the Residential Tenancies Branch. Who is going to be held responsible? Is it going to be a specific property manager or is it going to be the company that person is working for?

You can also get into a dispute when you are dealing with caretakers as opposed to the actual management company as well. So how is this system going to deal with those issues?

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Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the property managers are often the active parties of record for and on behalf of landlords, so that the primary registration will be against the property manager if it is an appropriate issue. There will be some facility if the owner of the property is an active participant, but to preserve probity of contract the active people would be the property manager. As well, in response to my honourable colleague's question as to identification of property, there would be a facility which would identify which property is at issue.

Ms. Cerilli: I think those are all the questions I have specifically on that program for now, just to say that I think this is a real positive initiative, and we will look forward to making sure that it is going to be up and running in September. Hopefully there will not be any further delays. I think that it is a good initiative.

Maybe just to sort of back up a little bit. I have already asked a couple of questions about the staffing levels with the Residential Tenancies, the inspectors. I am wondering if there had been a program in the branch with an aboriginal tenants inspector, and if that person was let go or resigned and has not been replaced, if there was a specific program in attempts to deal with aboriginal tenants and if there has been a change in that program?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that there is an aboriginal officer designated in Winnipeg. The individual has just resigned because apparently his family resides over 200 miles away from Winnipeg. This individual found it unreasonable to continue working in the city of Winnipeg. We are undergoing further recruiting for a new person to fill this position, and it will be a person of aboriginal background.

I am told that in Thompson there are two officers of aboriginal background that are working for the department. I am also told there are three other individuals of aboriginal background in the city of Winnipeg who are working for the department.

Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify, other than the person you mentioned that has resigned, none of these aboriginal people are working as inspectors; they are working in other areas in the department.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the additional people in Winnipeg are working in a support capacity. The two individuals in Thompson apparently do work as inspectors or do inspectors work. I would clarify that.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues I want to ask about, and I do not know if this is in the annual report, but the record on redirecting rent. Of course, this is one of the reasons that we want to have all these inspections of the City of Winnipeg health inspectors referred automatically to the province so that this provision to protect tenants will be used more frequently. It seems now that it does not get used very often. I do not know if in the annual report you can direct me to the section that shows how many back to '94-95, but I am also wanting to see if you have any more information for last year on the number of times in Manitoba that landlords had their rent withheld until they complied with an order, so that tenants paid their rent into the department and then the landlord had extra incentive to comply with orders that were delivered from the Residential Tenancies Branch.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I am told that on page 3 of the Residential Tenancies annual report, 1995, the area entitled Utilities, there are a number of redirected rent issues that arise in this category. Approximately, I am told, 55 percent of these orders result in a redirection of the rent. Next, under Repairs, there is a higher success rate or enforceability rate there, and in the Repairs figure it would be approximately 20 percent of those orders.

Ms. Cerilli: I think that would be another useful bit of information to include specifically in the report. It does show something significant. I think that was one of the provisions in the new legislation that was really worked for on the part of tenants, and I think that it would be useful to have it specified in the reporting and have that kind of information on the Internet. That is one thing that a lot of tenants do not realize that is available to them. Of course, it is not easy to get to that point as I found by trying to work with some tenants, but I think it is a useful tool.

One of the other areas I want to ask questions about is on a different issue still related to the issue of rents, and that is the problem that has been identified with the Residential Tenancies Branch not being able to give assurances to the bank of--now I want to use the correct phrase here; that is what I am looking for--the certified legal rents. This is something that apartment investors are wanting to get. There have been some problems when landlords do not actually implement the rent increase guideline, and the branch has no way right now of monitoring that. What ends up happening, as I understand it, is that, when an apartment block is up for sale, there is a problem with the bank and the potential buyer being able to be assured of what the actual rent revenues are from that apartment block because there is no way of guaranteeing what that level is.

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I am wondering how the branch is dealing with this problem. I think that there had been a committee that was set up to try and resolve this, and I am wanting a report of where that committee's work is at and how this is being dealt with by the branch.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, my honourable colleague has identified a number of problems which arise out of this lack of certainty in the Residential Tenancies world, and the first one is that the department right now has received a legal opinion that it does not have the jurisdiction to give a certainty in a situation which my honourable colleague has identified, which then results in a lack of evaluation of capital value for a particular piece of property which impacts on mortgaging, impacts on sale, impacts on evaluation. My honourable colleague has indicated that there has been an ad hoc committee that has met with the director and made some recommendations. These recommendations have been submitted to me, and I am, at this point, considering these. I will be sharing these with my colleagues, and we will be considering whether in fact there should be some changes made to The Residential Tenancies Act to empower the director to act in this particular case.

Also, with regard to the issue, I guess, that my honourable colleague has touched on, the issue of where there have been forbearance, this is another issue that there have been some recommendations brought forward, and we will be taking them under advisement at this point in time. We do not want to rush them through this legislative calendar at this point until they have been thought through and see how they will impact on both landlords and tenants.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, the minister has been pretty vague, and I want a little bit more information if he can tell us what some of the recommendations were to start off in terms of trying to deal with this. I know one of the areas is a problem of having the tenants--once they receive a notice that their rent is going to go up, they will actually be guaranteed that they got that notice. That has been one of the issues related to this that I think has been a problem. So if that is one of the areas that is going to be dealt with to have some mechanism to ensure, I do not know, a certified letter. I do not know how that could be done, but if that is one of the areas that is going to dealt with, one of the recommendations, if the minister could tell us more specifically what mechanism is being considered to deal with this problem.

Mr. Radcliffe: What my honourable colleague is referring to is that right now there has to be strict compliance with the act with regards to notice. One of the recommendations that I have received is to make a noncompliance voidable instead of void, because if there has been a breach or a failure in the process, then it may well impact that all subsequent rises in the rent can be wiped out, and this introduces a significant uncertainty in the world.

I am looking at this as well. This is, as I say, being considered. We are not introducing it in legislation in this term because I have just received the report from the ad hoc committee. With the agenda that we have right now, I think we would be taxing the engine unduly to try and get it through in this legislative term.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify what the minister said. He said they would not be bringing it in this term, which means before the election.

I wondering if you meant this legislative session, and within this mandate you may consider implementing this report. I would also like you to give me some sense of the direction you would be headed in terms of the recommendations in that report.

Mr. Radcliffe: I stand or I sit corrected by my honourable colleague that, in fact, yes, I do mean in this term but not in this session. It would perhaps be in the next session.

I certainly have had the difficulties explained to me by the property managers, by the landlord groups, and I receive some comfort from the fact that the ad hoc committee has reviewed the issue and made a number of joint recommendations.

I do not know that I have any conclusion that I can offer to my honourable colleague at this point in time because the process of consideration has not been more than just commenced, so I cannot say where these recommendations are going to end up at this point in time. Certainly, they are on the table, they are being discussed, and they will form the topic for future discussion.

Ms. Cerilli: One of the other new programs that this branch has implemented is the tenant education program. This is really new, just, I guess, about three months old since January '97, but I am still wanting some update or a report on how this is going so far, the number of groups that are using the volunteer speakers to inform them of their rights under The Residential Tenancies Act, the types of groups that are involved so far in the program, the number of volunteers that have been trained to do this speaking on this topic and, I guess, some sort of general evaluation of how this is being received in the community and the response to the program.

Again, I do not know if there was--I think that there was one news release that would announce this program. I do not know if I have that in my file, but again, I do not think that there was much of a fuss made about this program. There was not a lot of attention to it, and I know that this was something that I had asked about previously, so I was pleased to see that there was a program like this implemented. I am interested in finding out how the volunteers are being recruited and how they are being selected because it is a fairly technical area. I am also interested in seeing what type of materials have been developed to supplement the program. So that is a lot, but we can always go back and get them all answered.

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Mr. Radcliffe: I would like to tell my honourable colleague that in fact there is a feedback form which goes out with the speakers, and there have been over 220 tenants contacted at this point in time. The feedback that is coming back from the community is that it has been a very positive program. There are five volunteers trained right now, and the target is to end up with a cadre of between 15 to 20 individuals that are equipped and skilled in this field. The department has had 15 engagements at this point in time, education engagements or speaking engagements. I am told that there is a tenant-speaker handbook which has been prepared by the department, which is to enable the volunteers to be able to present. The groups that have been targeted are the Wolseley family centre, the Red River ESL group and an Urban Circle Training Program. These are three areas.

The demographic portion of the community that is being targeted are the inner-city high-risk tenants and single parents, aboriginal people. The co-ordinator, there has been a part-time co-ordinator to this program that was hired in August of '96. So that gives you an overview of the program, how it is running, who are involved and who the people are that are being targeted.

Ms. Cerilli: Back to sort of the way that this is being promoted and developed, I am wondering if it is all proactive, or if there was some sort of strategy to get information out more broadly. Manitoba does not have as many tenant associations, particularly in the private sector, as other provinces do. So what I have found is tenants are not really that organized in our province and what may happen is this is going to be more on an individual basis. You may find that, as maybe you already are, that you are going to be working with different types of groups rather than tenant associations.

Seniors seem to be more organized in terms of tenant associations than others. I am wondering what the strategy is to promote this program in the community inside and outside of Winnipeg. I am pleased to hear some of the groups that you are targeting. It makes sense to target single parents and aboriginal inner city areas. I am wondering, more broadly, what the strategy is to promote the program so you may get more requests from other kinds of groups.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I am advised that this program is in its infancy at this point in time, so there has been some hesitancy on the part of the department to overreach its resources. But there has been direct contact by mail to a number of groups that would be advocates or stakeholders in this environment, such as the Manitoba Society of Seniors, the Seniors Directorate, John Howard Society.

There will be tenant associations that the department knows, that are brought to the department's attention. It is hoped that as the program develops and as the volunteers come forward and are identified, that by system of a networking, this information will be transmitted as well.

Ms. Cerilli: It is interesting that the department has a half-time staffperson and they are relying on volunteers for this program. You have said that you are targeting 15 to 20. I do not know when you hope to have that many people involved, but I would also ask to just get a sense of how you are identifying volunteers for this program, how they are being selected. I am wondering if the Volunteers in Public Service Program is involved, or the Volunteer Centre. How is this part of the program being handled?

Mr. Radcliffe: The time line on recruiting volunteers is that we hope to be at the 15 to 20 level by the end of this fiscal year. The selection process is by virtue of consorting with, or relying upon the volunteer centre. There is the International Centre, the friendship centre, the resorting to the same sources of individuals that the Consumers' Bureau does for its speaking program. One of the issues that is at stake right now is to design a job description. Then when the individuals do come forward, they have to have their background checked out to see that they are appropriate and suitable, because one would not want to be firing volunteers out into the community in such a representative capacity unless we knew that they were individuals who had the capacity to handle this sort of a job and were able to--well, would be appropriate people to do it.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. So how long is the seminar? You said that 220 tenants have participated, and I am wondering if part of the strategy then is to also target immigrant groups. They would really benefit from something like this. Students and youth, I could see the universities and high schools would be interested in something like this.

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Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, I am sorry, I should have mentioned that the International Centre has been accessed and university groups as well.

I am told that the seminar is approximately an hour and a half, and then there is a free-flow question-and-answer period afterwards, so it can be open ended at that point in time, as long as the interest is sustained.

Ms. Cerilli: Good program. I think, now, I am going to talk a little bit about rent control. Mr. Chairperson, this is another area where I believe that the department has appointed, or involved a working group or a committee that is looking at issues particularly that have been raised by the Apartment Investors Association and the Professional Property Managers' Association. I have met with them, as well, and have the paper that the Professional Property Managers' Association has prepared.

Perhaps I can just start by asking a general question about the status of that committee. Have they completed their work, or is this ongoing to deal with the issues around rent controls?

Maybe just to explain this a little bit more, basically these landlord groups are suggesting that the way that the rent control guidelines have been implemented in Manitoba is now creating a couple of different situations. One, they are not keeping up with inflation, and this is causing problems for the costs required by landlords to maintain properties. The second thing that they are claiming is that the rent control guidelines are having a reverse effect, I guess you would, on the low end of rental accommodation, particularly, I think, the city, but maybe they are looking at the other areas of the province as well. They are maintaining that what is happening is at the high end, the rents are being controlled, but at the low end if there were no rent control guidelines, the rents would actually be going down in Manitoba. I do not know if there has been any analysis on that.

I am interested in seeing if there is any work being done on this area because I do not know if they are taking into consideration the lower vacancy rate for the low end, so I wanted to get at some of those detailed questions as we go along. Basically, that is what I am referring to in terms of the problems that these landlord and property management groups have identified, so I am wondering how the department is dealing with that.

Mr. Radcliffe: I believe, Mr. Chair, that my honourable colleague has touched on the work of this ad hoc committee a little while ago, as well in our discussion when we were talking about rent certainty, and this is the same group. I am told that the deliberations of this group are completed at this point in time and that the conclusions that have been recommended to me--or the recommendations are all part and parcel of the same report that have come back. The rent control issue, I am aware of the argument that my honourable colleague is making.

Ms. Cerilli: I am not necessarily making that argument. I am telling you the argument of these landlord groups--a point of order.

Mr. Radcliffe: The argument that my honourable colleague has outlined and presented, and my response to that would be--and I am sure she would be very quick to advance this argument as well--that there is the capacity for a rent holiday or rent forbearance if in fact a particular landlord does not think that the particular market will sustain the rent level, and so long as the rent holiday is defined and outlined in the notice. Then, when the market changes, it can revert to whatever the allowable level may be by the statutory recommended increases that have been issued from the government.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to go through this issue then more specifically, one point at a time.

Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I would want to make clear to my honourable colleague at this point in time that while I have received the argument, I am not either denying it or advocating it at this point in time. I am aware of it, as is my honourable colleague, and if she wishes to expand my knowledge of the report, I would be very happy to discuss it with her. I do not want the record, in any way, to show at this point in time that I have adopted the recommendations coming from this report that she is referring to or that I have turned them down. They are on the table, they are open for discussion, but at this point there is no conclusion.

Ms. Cerilli: Has the report gone to cabinet?

Mr. Radcliffe: No.

Ms. Cerilli: When is it going to go to cabinet?

Mr. Radcliffe: There has been no particular time fixed to refer this report to cabinet.

Ms. Cerilli: So is the minister suggesting that there may be some changes made to it before recommendations from the report would go to cabinet? Because the minister has said earlier, on the other issue that this committee had dealt with, that there is likely going to be some legislative changes, so obviously some decisions are being made with respect to the issues that this ad hoc committee is working with. I am wondering if there are going to be recommendations taken to cabinet with respect to this issue as well?

Mr. Radcliffe: I think that my honourable colleague is a little bit ahead of me on this, because I would not even say at this point that there will be legislative changes. I think that is precipitous at this point as well. I think that these are issues that are being discussed, and I think that is probably all I can say at this point in time. They are being discussed with regard to rent certainty. They are being discussed with regard to strict compliance and void versus voidability.

There are some needs, I think, in the market but because this is such a sensitive issue, this government is going very, very cautiously and very, very slowly on this. We want to make sure that we have figured out all the impact of any changes that we would make before we would be advancing them either to cabinet or representing them in legislation. We are not at that stage yet.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I know that when I have raised this in the past, the previous minister basically said similar things to what you are saying in terms of this issue. So I want to deal specifically then with the formula that is used in determining the rent guideline. This is something, I know, that is of great interest to these landlord groups, because the answer from government always comes back, well, inflation and all these other issues are considered in the formula for when they set the rent guideline, and there is a process for appeals for repairs and other costs by landlords to be considered and have an increase beyond the rent guideline.

So the big question always is, well, what is the formula for considering and how have you given these landlord groups or the members of your own committee assurances that these issues are worked into the formula?--because they are saying that they do not think that they are. They are saying that the cost of repairs and maintenance of these buildings are exceeding the revenue that they are bringing in through rents.

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Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that the process is a similar process to that which the previous government--to the Filmon government--implemented. I do not think that there is any specific and hard and fast rules that are implemented that I could outline for the edification of my honourable colleague at this point in time other than to confirm the parameters that she herself has outlined to us, and this is what we traditionally tell the landlord groups when they come to meet with us.

I think that this is a matter that goes to cabinet, as my honourable colleague is aware. There is free-flowing discussion, and those are the parameters of the discussion.

Ms. Cerilli: Was part of the work of this committee to look at some research into some of the specific claims that some of the landlord groups are making? Have you looked at the availability of low-end rental accommodation in Winnipeg? Have you tried to do any financial and numerical analysis of their claims that the rent guideline has actually increased the rent beyond what the market would have dictated? Has any of that kind of research and analysis been done on this issue?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am advised that there was no financial analysis by the ad hoc group of the issues that you are specifically referring to. The department is always open to receiving representation from the property managers' organizations.

With regard to the issue of sustaining the low-end rental market above what it would normally, competitively demand in an unregulated market, which is, I think, the position that my honourable colleague is outlining, I would suggest that the impact of 20,000 units of public housing covers the need for this sort of housing which would diminish the competition for some of the regulated housing in the private industry, in the private market.

The one- to three-unit blocks right now do have the opportunity for functioning in the market, as do single units. So I would suggest that there is the flexibility over and above what my honourable colleague is referring to in the report of the managers that she is thinking about right now.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, as so often happens in these Estimates, the minister's answer has raised more questions than it has answered, so I am going to deal with the issues one at a time, because I want to focus on this whole issue of having some financial research and analysis, because I do not think that this issue can be resolved without that.

I am wondering if either CMHC, the Institute for Urban Studies, the Social Planning Council--there are a number of groups. Even Harvest Collective, in their focus on poverty, has started to do analysis and research on income and costs for housing.

I am wondering if any of these groups have been involved in this issue, or if you are collecting information from the research of any of these other groups to help deal with this issue.

Mr. Radcliffe: I think that my honourable colleague is probably making the argument for me of the very position that I find myself in at this point in time, that I have received a report from an ad hoc committee. This has just been a recent development. Before government goes ahead with any further development of legislation or policy position, I think that the type of research that my learned friend or my honourable friend refers to should perhaps be implemented. Whether it be those groups, comparable groups, or different groups, I think that some sort of economic research should be effected before there be any policy papers presented to cabinet or legislation.

Ms. Cerilli: I am hoping that you are going to do that though. I am wondering how and where you are going to do that. I have not looked at the research branch for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, but I know that is the line that my colleague the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) is on.

I guess that we could see if that is something that is going to be done through your own department, through the Research and Planning division or if you are going to have to rely on outside agencies to do that kind of research.

Mr. Radcliffe: I can tell my honourable colleague that the scrutiny which this legislation receives when going to my colleagues is very assiduous and that very little will get past the eye of a number of my colleagues on this until this sort of work has been done, or work of a comparable nature.

Ms. Cerilli: My question is who is going to do it?

Mr. Radcliffe: I have not got that far.

Ms. Cerilli: You have told me before that you have not taken any action on the report in terms of taking it to cabinet or taking recommendations to cabinet, so I think that this is one of the priority areas for the Residential Tenancies Branch. This issue, I think, needs to be resolved. I see that the minister is nodding his head. I am wondering when we are going to see some action in terms of moving forward with this research.

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Mr. Radcliffe: I can tell my honourable colleague that over the course of this next year, I will be discussing these issues with my colleagues, and we will be developing a policy position on it. I hope that by the time we sit here a year from now that there will be draft legislation.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering what the landlord groups have to say about this issue, because their recommendation in the paper that they have put together is to completely eliminate the rent control guideline once someone moves. So if they stay put, a rent control guideline would apply. Then once someone moved from that apartment, that apartment would then be reverted to market rent.

Now, I do not know, maybe you do, how they propose to determine what that market rent is, particularly for the rental accommodations for the lower income, I guess, lower end type of apartments or housing.

So I am wondering if the minister has dealt with that issue with his committee or with his department. How is it that they would be able to determine what the market rent is, because they are saying that those are the apartments where the rent would actually be lower. So on the one hand then, they are suggesting that there would be a reduction in the rent. Once someone moved out of one of the apartments, then the rent would go down.

How would they decide what the market rent is, or how would one do that? Has that been discussed with this committee or with the landlord groups?

Mr. Radcliffe: I have not met with this ad hoc committee personally. I have not asked the landlord group how they arrived at that conclusion. I think it would be presumptuous of me to comment at this point in time on how they came to that conclusion. I am aware of the argument, and I think that my colleague does raise a moot point, a good point.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering if one of the other good points I might put forward and if the minister has considered this. The obvious question is what is the reasonable profit margin that these landlord groups are looking at, especially when we are dealing with lower-end, low- income housing or housing for low-income Manitobans. The minister has already raised the issue of social housing and public housing. I would suggest that part of the reason that as a country we have implemented policy for social housing is because you cannot make money off of housing low-income people. That is why we have social housing or subsidized housing.

So I am wondering if one of the questions you have put for your working group is what kind of profit margins they hope to make and if their profit margins have been changing in terms of the management of these private sector apartment complexes.

They are saying that they do not have enough money anymore to keep the value up and make repairs, but I am wondering how their profit margins have been affected.

Mr. Radcliffe: The rent guidelines, the rent control assumes that they have grandfathered or grandpersoned the same margin of profit that existed when the guidelines came into place. The rent control people do not take into account anything more than what was there originally to maintain the status quo.

The increases are set by cabinet, as you know, and there are guidelines. The issues that are before the rent control people are with regard to increase in costs, and that is the only issue that is debated or discussed and taken into consideration.

The landlords do tell us that, as you have advanced, their profit margin is diminishing. What that profit margin is, they do not share with us.

Ms. Cerilli: Is that not a question that the minister or through the ad hoc committee or when he meets with these groups, is that not something that is raised or is asked, this issue of the amount that they are continuing to generate?

I would think, then, breaking it down between different levels, sort of high-, mid-end, and low-end, in terms of the kinds of rental accommodation that we are dealing with, to take a look at what the margins are--I mean, I have statistics that show that it is lower-income people who are paying often more than 50 percent of their income into rent. What ends up happening is lower-income people, because of the nature of the situation that they are in, are often paying more in rent, particularly dealing with low-end accommodation where the landlord is bringing in more than twice than what he is paying on the mortgage, and low-income people are paying more than 50 percent of their income for rent.

So the picture that gets painted here is that certain landlords are doing extremely well, low-income people are not getting adequate housing, and they are paying an awful lot of money for it. Now, I know some of the groups that are presenting their proposals to you claim that they do not represent some of those kinds of landlords, but all of these properties are being affected by the rent guideline.

What I am asking is if the minister is getting some of this information from landlords about the profits that are being made on the different types of accommodation in our province.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am told that right now the landlords advocate--and this is the information they are giving us--that 60 percent of the rent dollars are allocated to operating costs; 40 percent of the rent dollar that they receive goes to capital improvements. Now, at this point in time--yes, 60-40 split.

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I am just repeating to you what the landlords tell us. This is not anything that either the department is saying nor has this been the fruit of any research or economic analysis. There has been no research done to sustain the outline that you have just given us, other than I know myself from common sense, from having been a solicitor and working with members of the public, that people at the lower economic end of the scale do proportionately spend far more on accommodation, on housing, than somebody at the upper end.

The rent scale covers accommodation from zero to, I think, $950 or $970 a month, so that it catches in its net all ends of the spectrum. But we are in possession of no information to either sustain or to deny the argument that you have advanced.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to make it clear again that I am not supporting what these groups are suggesting, but I am wanting to see this issue resolved, and I am wanting to see some hard research and analysis done, because if there is any ground to their claim that lower-income people are being penalized by these rent control programs, I think that is a serious issue.

From the answer the minister just gave, he is saying that the landlords are claiming that they are getting no return on their investment right now. [interjection] No. But he said that their 60 percent is going to operating costs and 40 percent to capital improvements, so I wonder if he can clarify that.

Mr. Radcliffe: In a previous answer, I had said that the original status quo of the return on investment from 1975 or 1992--actually, I guess it would be 1975 when these rent controls came in--would be the return that has been rolled forward.

Now, as you can understand, as well, and appreciate the landlord's position that a 1997 dollar is nowhere near worth what a 1975 dollar is worth, and this is the argument that the landlords are making. There is no allocation for return on investment in the discussion that goes on annually for the suggested rent increases.

As you are aware, I think the last two or three years, it has been a 1 percent rise each year, but I would be very interested that if we could bring some figures to the table which sustained this argument, would my honourable colleague be in favour then of reviewing and changing the rent regulation with regard to these lower-end rental units?

Ms. Cerilli: I am sure that the minister knows that this process means that I ask the questions and you answer them, even though you are a new minister. I am wondering if one of the things that you have considered in dealing with this is having a graduated rate for the rent control guideline, if the higher-end rental accommodations toward the cap of, I think it is $970, would have a higher percentage as the rent guideline, and the lower-end ones would have a lower percentage, so it is a graduated guideline, if that is something that has been discussed or considered either in his discussion with his colleagues in the department or with the ad hoc committee?

Mr. Radcliffe: It certainly has not been discussed yet, but I think it certainly is a very reasonable proposal.

Ms. Cerilli: I am beginning to wonder what the workings of this ad hoc committee have been because a number of the issues that we have discussed here have not been discussed at that committee, so I would really like to see what is in the report and what has gone on in the meetings.

How many meetings have there been with this ad hoc group? What has been the nature of the discussions with the staff in the department? The minister said that he has not met with them himself, so I am beginning to get more worried about the workings of this group for relying on them to resolve this issue in some way.

Mr. Radcliffe: I am told that there were between 10 and 12 meetings of this ad hoc committee. The report was prepared approximately a month ago, and the prime focus of the report was rent certainty. It was not to do with either the transparency of the rent increases, the attribution of profit or the distinction between capital equity reward and operating costs. These issues were discussed, and I am told that the director, through the process of the meetings, kept bringing the groups' attention back to the issue of rent certainty, which was the mandate for this group.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I thought one of the tasks of this group was to deal with the proposal that rent controls are skewing the rental economy. Is that not correct, because I am understanding that the minister had said that the same ad hoc committee was dealing with both issues, both the issue of certainty in the rent reports that are needed in the industry, as well as this whole issue of rent controls.

Mr. Radcliffe: There is only one committee. The committee was mandated to do rent certainty, and if I have misled my honourable colleague, I would apologize on that. The issue of distinguishing the rent increases was a topic that was discussed but did not form any part of the recommendations or report. This is the only committee that has been struck at this point in time.

I can advise my honourable colleague that there is provision for another group made up of landlords and tenants that is available to advise the minister through the course of meeting with the director. That committee has not met for a number of years. It is my proposal that this committee should meet in the future and supply me with information that I would request from time to time.

Ms. Cerilli: I thank the minister for that answer. I would like to continue with this tomorrow, I guess, but I know that the member for Osborne has some specific questions that she wants to ask.

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Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Yes, I want to ask the minister about a letter I wrote to him on April 2. The letter dealt with a woman named Jenny Pettigrew [phonetic], and also I was writing the letter on behalf of COVAW, Coalition on Violence Against Women. I do not know whether the minister recalls that Jenny Pettigrew [phonetic] had been forced to flee her apartment because of domestic violence. The minister is nodding his head. So I do not know that I have to review the whole situation. I am wondering what has been done in regard to this case.

Mr. Radcliffe: I thank my honourable colleague for that question. I can tell her that I would not want to comment any further on the actual adjudication of this particular issue. This issue was decided. There was an adjudication made on the particular facts, but the policy, I guess, which my honourable colleague I think is pointing to, is what flexibility or what sort of interference should there be in cases of domestic violence to cancelling landlord and tenant contracts has been referred to the Family Law branch. I am awaiting a response from them at this point in time.

Ms. McGifford: I want to thank the minister for his answer. Indeed, Ms. Pettigrew [phonetic] is not disputing the adjudication, although she probably is in her heart. She is concerned about other women who may be affected in similar kinds of situations. She feels, and the coalition opposing violence against women feel, I certainly feel, and I am sure many of my colleagues feel that the current situation does not give an abused woman much room for maneuvering, if any at all, and that it is probably for that reason quite unfair. So that was the matter that I wanted to bring to the minister's attention. I am very glad to hear that it has been referred to Family Law. Thank you, and I will certainly wait to hear more about this case.

Mr. Radcliffe: I thank the honourable colleague.

Ms. Cerilli: We have approximately five minutes, and maybe we can just continue on in this vein dealing with this policy area. I am not as familiar with the specifics of this particular situation. Was there a restraining order in this situation? Is the minister aware of that, and what is the requirement under The Landlord and Tenant Act in either case? If there is a restraining order it is pretty obvious, but how would the landlord be notified if there is a restraining order if the situation is that previously this was a couple? Is that correct? So previously this was a couple. It would be understandable that the landlord would then perhaps even know both partners. If one of them came to his door and said, I have locked myself out, can you let me in, and would not know that there has been domestic violence occurring, then this is a very large issue for public policy even beyond this particular case.

So my question would be: In the case of there being a restraining order, how would the landlord be informed so that they would know not to let the partner have access to the suite?

Mr. Radcliffe: I do not want to comment on the particulars of this particular issue, but on a general policy basis, I think it would have to be from a very common sense point of view that if a particular partner obtains a restraint order against a former partner who is a co-tenant, then it behooves that particular individual to notify the landlord and give the landlord particulars of that order as soon as it is obtained.

Ms. Cerilli: So what the minister is saying then is that the responsibility lies with the tenant. Ninety-nine percent of the time in domestic violence, that is going to be the woman who must provide information to the landlord that her previous partner has a restraint order, and they are not to be let into the building or into their apartment. Is that correct? Is that what the minister is saying?

Mr. Radcliffe: That is the current status of the law. I can tell my honourable colleague that when I was in practice in the private bar and doing domestic litigation, that was my practice.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering if this is one of the areas that is being covered in the course that we were talking about previously, requirements and rights and responsibilities under The Landlord and Tenant Act, something I think that probably a lot of people would not think of in terms of the kinds of situations that could arise in the relationship between landlords and tenants. So that may be something to look into.

I also want to clarify what the situation would be if there was no restraint order. Maybe I will let you answer the first question first, one at a time.

Mr. Radcliffe: This is not in the education package at this point in time, no. I think that my honourable colleague raises a very good point. I would add as well that I think this is an issue that should be introduced and circulated in the legal milieu and in the advocacy groups as well.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering too if the Justice program, the Women's Advocacy Program would also benefit from that information. Then my other question is: If there is no restraint order, maybe there has been involvement of the police, maybe not, but there is a domestic violence situation, and one of the tenants then goes to a landlord and says, do not let so and so in anymore. What is the provision under the act, or what is the responsibility of the landlord in that case? How would that situation be dealt with? Because we often have women, particularly--we know the statistic that there have to be numerous violent episodes before the police are involved. So there may be a number of situations that occur where the woman, the victim, would inform the landlord potentially before they would inform the police.

I am wondering, in that kind of a situation, what is the responsibility of the landlord, especially if the violent partner had previously been a tenant, or may in fact still be a tenant legally on the lease.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise.