Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. McIntosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for LaVerendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Housing; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources.

Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon the Committee of Supply will be resuming consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Housing. When the committee last sat, the minister had just started to give his opening statement. I now call upon the minister to resume his statement.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Thank you very much. What I was in the process of talking about yesterday was in regard to the bringing out, for example, the Gilbert Park Tenants Association and the role that they played in the project. I will just continue on that same vein.

An entirely different range of challenges requires our attention in elderly housing where a recent analysis revealed that over 15 percent of the tenant population is age 85 years or older. It is further estimated that the proportion of persons of retirement age will continue to increase well into the next century, with the fastest growing segment being those 75 years of age and over. This represents an increasing demand in terms of support services required by these tenants.

The aging of the population has major implications for both the Department of Housing and the Department of Health. Elderly persons housing projects are faced with aging tenant population who are becoming increasingly frail and the lack of services necessary to permit aging in place may be a significant factor in our elderly housing vacancy rates. At the same time, the health care system is faced with growing pressure, and long-term and acute care facilities by the elderly, as well as increasing home care demands and costs. The department is continuing to provide noon meal programs where space and facilities exist. In congregate meal programs that operate independently of Manitoba Housing have been given access to the kitchen facilities in elderly projects in rural communities.

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Space for health clinics and for home care workers has been made available in certain projects for the benefit of residents. As well, the tenant resource program, which is available in a number of elderly projects, provides tenants with the necessary assistance to identify their service and care needs and to refer them to the appropriate service provider.

(Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

With the continued and increasing needs of our elderly tenants, however, we recognize that these initiatives might not be sufficient to meet the needs of our tenants. Therefore, Manitoba Housing is working in conjunction with the Department of Health in the development of an assisted living pilot project to meet the current needs and the potential of future needs of our aging tenant population. Assisted living can be roughly defined as housing with the provision of support services, such as meals, housekeeping and laundry. In addition to these services, the departments are also looking into providing 24-hour supervised assisted living units in elderly housing projects to accommodate elderly persons awaiting placement in long-term personal care facilities.

While the introduction of assisted living in Manitoba Housing, buildings may require some investment in terms of apartment and building upgrades, it is also likely that an assisted living project targeted to more independent seniors on a pay-for-service basis would enhance the marketability of older projects and result in decreased vacancy rates.

In mentioning older projects here, another challenge faced by this department is introduced: the age of the social housing portfolio. Over 62 percent of the social housing units in Manitoba were built prior to 1978. Proper maintenance of the physical structure of our housing projects is important, as this is the asset through which we provide our services. Further, this asset represents a considerable investment on the part of the people of Manitoba. Unfortunately, the age of the projects leads to increased maintenance costs at a time when responsible government is looking toward measures by which fiscal economies and savings can be realized. It is important, therefore, that maintenance funds are expended wisely. There are long-term benefits associated with the appropriate and timely expenditure.

Through the use of information technology, we will be establishing short-, medium-, and long-term maintenance plans. In this way, maintenance requirements can be prioritized and financial planning will enable us to address these maintenance needs.

Additional savings potential to be explored include initiatives that would result in future savings such as expenditures on low-maintenance building components and initiatives to improve the efficient use of energy. Similarly, preventive maintenance will promote a longer useable lifespan for our projects and will maximize the effective uses of our housing assets. In these ways and in other ways yet to be examined and implemented, we will make the most efficient use of our maintenance dollars without sacrificing the continued provision of safe and adequate accommodation for households in need.

Without a doubt, however, the major challenge facing the department at this time is our changing relationship with the federal government. The department has been and continues to be heavily influenced by federal housing policy. Following its January 1, 1994, withdrawal from new commitments to social housing, the federal government formally offered to the province management responsibilities for the entire social housing portfolio in Manitoba in March of 1996. The total federal portfolio which has been offered for transfer to the province consists of 17,500 units developed under several program and funding arrangements. This means that when combined with the approximate 18,500 federal-provincial cost-shared units which are directly managed by the province, acceptance of the federal portfolio would nearly double the number of units under provincial administration.

As a condition of this devolution proposal, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation announced that its annual funding share for the social housing portfolio would be limited or capped based on 1995-1996 expenditure levels. This funding allocation will be reduced in subsequent years of operations as project commitment and subsidy agreements mature and reach their expiry date.

In addition to the subsidy cap monies, CMHC proposes to provide two lump sum payments to the province. The first lump sum is intended to act as the province's mortgage insurance fund, as Manitoba will require to assume CMHC's loan exposure for an outstanding mortgage commitment in the federal portfolio. The second lump sum is an allowance for risks associated with future increases in costs due to inflation and changes in interest rates.

Part of the due diligence on the part of the province, therefore, is to ensure that the funding allocations proposed by CMHC will be sufficient for the ongoing operation of the social housing portfolio. The department is currently undertaking a complete and detailed assessment of the social housing portfolio and is involved in ongoing discussions with other provinces and with CMHC. Recommendations regarding the federal devolution proposal are still under consideration through this 1997-98 fiscal year.

While CMHC would prefer that all provinces accept their devolution proposal to enable the federal government to completely remove itself from ongoing involvement in the social housing field, we are not prepared to make a hasty decision at this time on this matter. This is not a challenge that this department takes lightly.

The conclusion of our analysis of the federal proposal and our negotiations with CMHC will fundamentally change the policy environment for social housing in this province. The final decision in this matter will ultimately determine our future role and the responsibilities in the management and the operation of social housing portfolio in Manitoba. The Department of Housing recognizes that housing is an integral part of the social and economic development of this province and that adequate and affordable housing has a fundamental influence on the health and the well-being of individuals and the community as a whole.

Through our ongoing commitment and involvement, the department will continue to address the challenges that have been described while accepting our responsibility for ensuring that the fiscal goals of this government are realized. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), have any opening comments?

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Perhaps just a few comments to outline some of the issues that I hope to discuss, especially after just listening to the minister's opening statement where he is talking about the ongoing negotiations with the federal government regarding the devolution.

It is something that I have tried to follow, and now he is saying that they are being cautious and considered, but I understand that this past April 1 was one of the deadlines that they had wanted to meet in terms of having an agreement. So it is interesting now that they have decided that they are not going to meet that deadline and that they are going to take a further considered approach to this.

I know that I have written him letters responding to concerns by some of the social housing managers about the hasty approach that they were taking in doing what staff were terming drive-by assessments of the portfolio that is currently managed by CMHC and the concern that the community has not been involved in this process, this from the information that he has given me about the way that the federal government is going to flow the money into this agreement. I will follow up that with more detailed questions.

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The information that he has put on the record, that it is going to be approximately 17,000 units that is currently in the CMHC administered portfolio, that is a little bit more than I had thought that it was. So I am curious when he said that this is going to influence the entire future management of Manitoba Housing Authority, and I am curious to get into a little bit more detail about what that means.

I guess, generally, I think that it is not given the recognition that it is due, the very large asset that we have in terms of the public resources invested into housing, social housing, public housing, and I think that most families would recognize that housing is their largest expense, and it is very important to families.

The minister has sort of alluded to recognizing the effect that housing has on communities, on families, on individuals, and yet I am concerned that that is not necessarily reflected in this budget. I am concerned that the government does not seem to really have a plan or a vision in terms of how housing can be used to alleviate the growing gap in terms of income levels in Manitoba, the gap and the increase in poverty, the disparity in the standard of living that has continued to grow under this government in the province of Manitoba. You know, there are some improvements, too, in the area of housing on the economic side of things with an increase in housing starts, but I think there is a continued deterioration in the quality of housing for the majority of people in the province.

I will get into some detail about some of the internal changes in the department. I understand that there has been a lot of activity in dealing with personnel. I am concerned about the staffing reductions and the fact that a number of positions have not been filled that I think are crucial, and I do not understand why there is a continuing erosion in some of those key positions.

Particularly when I was talking about the increase in the disparity, I wanted to mention that just in this budget alone there is almost three quarters of a million dollars being eliminated just from the rent supplement programs. Those were issues that I have raised in the House today and yesterday in Question Period, that overall the budget has been reduced by 7.4 percent. It is over $3.5 million, and almost a million dollars of that has come out of the rent support program.

So I am concerned about the way that those programs have been underutilized, and, again, it just does not seem that the government has really tried to assist families by promoting those programs. So we will get into that in a little bit more detail.

I am particularly concerned about the area of research and policy development in the department. It seems like that division has particularly been hard hit by the staffing reductions, and I find that is kind of ironic when we are in the middle of this major negotiation with the federal government, and that is one of their responsibilities, is federal-provincial co-ordination.

The minister in his opening statement has also talked a lot about the challenges for the elderly who rely on social housing and public housing in the province and that we have an aging population, and I am concerned that there has not been, I do not think, any real housing needs assessment done for the province, and that is also one of the concerns I have about the research and planning area being reduced as the government has just embarked on this program in principle. They are drafting legislation for the city's tax rebate for new home construction, but it is all single-family dwellings, and I am concerned that that is not necessarily where the greatest need is in Winnipeg and Manitoba for new housing. It is housing for seniors, and as the minister has said, they are looking for a variety of services attached to their housing.

I know in my own constituency there are four apartment blocks on Plessis Road that were not built as seniors housing. They were constructed just as regular apartment blocks. Some of them are being converted to condos, but they are almost entirely filled with seniors, and I know that in certain areas there is a real need for seniors housing. I am concerned that while they are going ahead with agreements with the city to develop more single-family dwellings, they are not giving enough attention to co-ordinating with the Department of Health and to really looking at a broader range of housing to meet the needs of aging seniors.

This is something that they may think they are dealing with with one pilot project. I know last Estimates I spent quite a bit of time in dealing with the problems the department is facing of trying to fill the vacant suites in its seniors apartments with mental health patients who are now outpatients released from some of the mental health institutions, and that has been sort of an ongoing difficulty. So I am concerned that while they are perhaps undertaking one small pilot project, that really there is not the broader attention being given to how Manitobans now can have their needs addressed in terms of housing, particularly for seniors.

We will get into some of the details, as well, about the ongoing problems with management of an aging housing stock that is managed by the Manitoba Housing Authority. I have had brought to my attention some of the points the minister has raised in his opening statement about the slowness with which his Housing Authority has moved in terms of energy conservation and water conservation and to look at some purchasing and how cost savings are being realized in the whole area of managing the finances for the Manitoba Housing Authority.

So with that, I think I will just end off and ask the minister to invite the staff to the table so we can get at it.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the honourable member for those comments.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department, and, accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line.

Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff present.

Mr. Reimer: Joining us at the table is the Deputy Minister Mr. Bill Kinnear, Mr. Henry Bos from our financial department, Mr. Ron Fallis from the Manitoba Housing Authority, Joan Miller, our policy analyst, and Linda McFadyen from Research and Planning.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the minister for those introductions and we would now proceed to line 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $576,800.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess I just want to clarify with the minister if it is okay with him if we take a similar approach as we did last year where I think we had a more wide-ranging discussion, not necessarily just going line by line. I am also doing that considering some of my colleagues I know want to come and ask some questions related to their constituency dealing with Housing. So I want to sort of leave it open for them to be able to come in as they are able to. So I would appreciate that. I know that last year we were at the tail end of Estimates, and I wanted us to get up early this time so we could get the consideration that is warranted for this department and get the time in. So I am just wondering if you would consider that.

Mr. Reimer: I have really no problem in sort of having an open discussion on the department. I think the member should recognize that I have limited people at the table with me right now for resource for questions, and there are some questions that may be asked that the proper staff or the proper information may not be here with us right now because of the fact that we will be moving back and forth throughout the whole department. I would think if she is agreeable that we can possibly find the information for her, relay it to her at a further time, that is possible.

I know I had that arrangement with the member for Wellington in Urban Affairs committee of Estimates and when I told her that I did not know the answer, all of a sudden she brought that up to me as a point of not knowing what was going on in my department, and I found that kind of discouraging that she would do that, with the fact that I had explained at the beginning of the Estimates in Urban Affairs that if the person was not here I may not be able to give her the answer. But I am sure the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) recognizes the situation that we are into right now.

Other than that, we certainly can move throughout any part of the Estimates process.

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The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Just for clarification, is there agreement of the committee to have a general discussion with regard to the Estimates of the Department of Housing? [agreed]

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to, further to that, clarify, what appropriation would there be staff that you would call to the Estimates that are not here? Maybe that will help me sort of organize myself.

Mr. Reimer: I am only speculating that in case the research that the staff has brought forward with them at this time may not be in the books that they have for it, and to get a specific answer they may not have the availability of that information, and that way we can bring it forth at a later date. I would not want to give speculative answers to the member or have staff feel that they had to respond to a question not knowing the full extent of what is implied by the answer.

Ms. Cerilli: I am just wanting to clarify this, because I guess for some of the larger departments in the government like Health or Education where there are a real variety of branches, I think that the ministers will go more line by line because they will only bring the staff for those appropriations that are at the beginning so that they do not have to have all the staff sit and wait when they are not necessarily going to be involved.

So I thank you for that clarification. I think that I will start off though with some questions about Executive Support and the staffing. This is the area that is dealing with personnel services.

One of the things I guess first of all is, I am not quite clear on how the department has a relationship between Housing, Urban Affairs, the Seniors Directorate and the Manitoba Housing Authority. I am not sure if in the last year's Estimates it was reported in the same way, that personnel services for all of those departments are dealt with by the Executive Support through the Ministry of Housing. So is that a change or is that something that has always been that way and I just did not notice it the way that it is laid out this time in the Estimates booklet?

Mr. Reimer: Yes. It has been pointed out that the chain of command in the reporting process is still the same. It is just that the schematics in the comparisons between the two charts from April of '96 and April of '97 appears different, but the reporting mechanism for personnel service still reports as indicated through the chain of command, if you want to call it, on the organization chart. So there is really no difference.

Ms. Cerilli: What I am wanting to clarify though is if essentially what is happening here is Urban Affairs, the Seniors Directorate, have no personnel department or branch of their own, that it is all handled through this Ministry of Housing.

Mr. Reimer: This was part of the reorganization that came about a few years ago in trying to bring the efficiencies of instead of having each department have its own personnel services and financial admittance services, that being of a smaller nature as pointed out by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), that these departments could amalgamate and utilize the same resources. So this is part of the reasons why each department does not have a definitive line through the personnel services or the financial administration services. So it is more or less a matter of efficiencies because other than the Seniors Directorate, Housing and Urban Affairs work out of the same building.

Ms. Cerilli: Okay. That is just sort of basic clarification then.

Dealing then with some of the staffing changes that are occurring in the department, how many staff have either resigned or been let go from the department in the last year, since the last Estimates?

Mr. Reimer: For the sake of putting a number on it, the number is nine different positions, or people are not there, either through retirement, or some have quit, and some have been replaced or are no longer with us. I know that some of them, in fact I know for a fact that one of them that quit has gone to B.C., our personnel man, Gary Charles. Nine people.

Ms. Cerilli: That was actually going to be one of my questions, because I notice on the bottom here that you deal with 650 to 700 employees, but that does not include the 300 or so with the Manitoba Housing Authority. Is that correct? So this would actually, for the entire department, be over 1,000?

Mr. Reimer: No.

Ms. Cerilli: No. So I guess I am interested in knowing totally all the staff, both with the Housing Authority and with the department itself, how many have either resigned or retired or been fired?

Mr. Reimer: The number that has been referred to, between 650 and 700 employees, are the personnel that are in the Department of Housing, the Department of Urban Affairs, the Seniors, the MHA, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the Vital Statistics agency and the company's office. So those are the areas that personnel services deal with, and they deal in various departments, some of them that I do not have the control of.

Ms. Cerilli: So just to clarify then, how many people are we talking about that are working in the housing area that I am the critic for, including the Housing Authority and the Department of Housing?

Mr. Reimer: That number is between 300 and 350 people.

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Ms. Cerilli: Is it safe to say then there are a little bit more than nine that have either quit or retired from that pool?

Mr. Reimer: One of the problems in giving exact numbers is that in the MHA through our caretakers and maintenance people we have about 275 in that area, but there is about a 15 percent turnover rate of people coming and going or quitting. So it is hard to give a definitive number as to what it is today, because of the fact that, like I say, it is a changing number because of just natural turnover and some that move on or quit. So that number would be approximately 275 people.

Ms. Cerilli: So then how many of the individuals that have either resigned or been let go come from management?

Mr. Reimer: I guess I have to look at the two sides, whether it is MHA or Housing.

Ms. Cerilli: Both.

Mr. Reimer: In looking at both, probably about 10 people.

Ms. Cerilli: How many of those 10 positions are still vacant? I know that the Clients Services person is still in an acting position.

Mr. Reimer: The person that I alluded to previously, Mr. Gary Charles, who was the tenant relations officer, I believe was his title, that person who took over that location is on sick leave right now. So that is why there is no indication of a person in there. So that is where that fits in.

Personnel Services, where Roger LaFleche was before, he quit and went to another company here in Winnipeg, and we have seconded a lady, Ms. Sophie Gaska from I, T and T, to fill that position.

Ms. Cerilli: So it sounds like at least about half of those positions are still vacant, and this is, I guess, one of the reasons I am asking these questions, is I am kind of concerned that there has been a very what I would call large turnover in management, starting with even not too long ago we had a new Deputy Minister.

So I am wanting to see some explanation for that, both for the large turnover in senior management, as well as for why so many of these positions are not yet filled.

Mr. Reimer: I guess it is part of what the member alluded to, some restructuring within the department, and I think that it is a healthy reassessment from time to time that you go through in trying to utilize some of the people who have been in positions and try to move people into various components of the department and move to better utilization of personnel. It is part of a restructuring that we are trying to implement in the Department of Housing, and one of the major components is trying to get a better sense of the purpose and role of Manitoba Housing with the government and the fact of trying to get the individuals, the staff, the tremendous assets that we have in personnel in our department, to better utilize them.

We are in the process of giving more responsibility and delegating decision making on a bottom-up type of analysis of our various departments and getting everybody involved, in a sense, with the budgetary process and with the decision-making process, so that there is a sense of contribution within the department to some of the goals that have been set out by the department in the sense of what type of direction they want to take the Housing department.

I have had very good results from our department, and I will go on record right now as saying that I am very proud of our Department of Housing and the personnel that we have working there in some of the things and the efforts that they do on a strictly voluntary basis in the sense of trying to satisfy the clients' needs.

One just has to go down to 185 Smith and look at the tremendous response we had att that building during the flood that happened there a couple of weeks ago in which the water main broke in front of the building and flooded it not once but four times in about a three-day period. It was incredible the amount of time and effort and commitment that the staff of Manitoba Housing put forth in trying to assist the tenants of 185 Smith. The basement was flooded with eight feet of muck and goo and shut down everything and the staff responded almost instantaneously, and it was not within just their eight-hour shift. A lot of employees spent 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 24 and even longer hours in trying to come to a resolve for it.

So I think that it shows that there is a very strong element of responsiveness and personal pride in the department, and I feel that I should foster that in any way I can and try to look for the quality assets of the people involved for movement within the department, and sometimes it means that some people decide that they do not want to be part of that movement or they seek other avenues of recourse for job employment and other people feel that they want to be more involved with the process of change that we are trying to implement in Housing.

So there has been a restructuring, as the member pointed out, but I am very positive in the direction that we are taking and very, very supportive of the staff and the management that I have in place right now that they can do the job and even do the job better. So I think that it is just, like I pointed out, it is a positive initiative for our government, and we are also looking at having staff meetings. We have had meetings in various sectors all across the province, not only here in Winnipeg, because the member is well aware that we have offices in Portage and Brandon, Selkirk, Gimli. We have met with staff. We have met with the executive. We have brought forth resolutions and questions that we feel that they can address and, more importantly, they come back with solutions of being involved. So we talk about, and I maybe mentioned the Winnipeg office primarily, but the staff that we have in all of our regional offices are doing I think a very, very commendable job in trying to come forth with their good, sound policy for the social housing that we have in Manitoba.

It means some changes, but I think that we have found that we have had more positive response by far as to what we are doing than the old status quo and laissez faire attitude.

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Ms. Cerilli: Just to try and focus in right now, even though the minister covered a very broad spectrum of issues in his answer, I am just trying to focus in right now on the staffing in the department and the changes in the staffing, and the minister is saying that that is reflecting some change in direction that is in process, that they are going through these consultations with the staff meetings, and he has also said that some of the positions will become redundant. I am wanting to clarify. I am concerned about a couple of the areas, the fact that the tenant relations management position as well as one of the co-ordinator positions with tenant relations continue to be unfilled, and this is an area that directly bears on the kind of services that are provided through the Manitoba Housing Authority.

So on the one hand you are saying that you want to improve client services in relation to the tenants and deliver a better service and then, on the other hand, those are the very areas where you have vacancies. I do not know how you can explain that. I am wondering if that is one of the areas that is going to become redundant. This is one of the areas that in past Estimates I have tried to make the case for maintaining the staff that are working with tenant relations. So I am wondering if some of those positions as well are vacant, the very front line people who work in tenant relations, because that was one of the other vacancies that I was aware of.

So just first of all in that one area of tenant relations, and I understand that this is with the Manitoba Housing Authority, but I am wondering then too, are they involved in this consultation that is going on with the staff, or is that just with the Housing department people?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, I can say unequivocally that the tenant relations officer is something that I found to be very, very helpful and a tremendous asset in the department, and it is not our intent to eliminate that position.

If anything, I think that there is an opportunity for an individual--he or she who goes into that particular sector is going to have a real challenge because I am a firm advocate that individual tenants associations can play a tremendous and a positive role in our public housing, and any way that we can foster that type of attitude and utilize a tenant relations officer to encourage that, they have my support because I think that there is an opportunity for the association itself to take charge, if you want to call it, or take ownership of its particular complex or cluster of units or whatever it is to come forth with some very, very positive initiatives.

I alluded in my speaking notes to Gilbert Park, and I have used that scenario quite a few times in other speaking engagements that I have been involved with, and I repeat it in the sense that it is a good news story only because of the fact that it is the people who get involved and the people who make it happen.

So the tenants relations officer will be a very vital part of any type of direction or redirection in which this department will be going because it just includes itself in any type of decision making as to how to make the department and how to make relationships with our clients more beneficial that we do have a strong person in that position.

So we have no intention of eliminating that position. If anything, we would possibly try to enhance it in the sense of trying to make it known that we encourage tenants associations. We support them financially on a per capita basis per complex. I am not sure exactly how much the money is per head, but we find a very great value in that.

Ms. Cerilli: So how long has it been since these positions have been vacant, particularly the management positions where there is someone in an acting capacity, and how much longer are some of these positions going to remain vacant?

Mr. Reimer: The individual who was involved with tenant relations, Mr. Gary Charles, left in September. In fact, he did such a good job with Manitoba Housing that he got hired away from us to Vancouver by the British Columbia government to go look after their housing tenant relations.

An Honourable Member: City of Vancouver, yes. There he is.

Mr. Reimer: There he is in Vancouver; that is where Mr. Charles is. In that particular position, we are assessing in a sense of trying to promote within our department to try to find an individual to fit those capabilities. We have had a few people involved with it. It is a matter of assessment, I guess, that we are going through right now to put someone in that position on a permanent basis. Hopefully, we can get a stability in there in the next while so that there is a person that can be identified as the tenant relations officer.

One other department that has been eliminated is the finance and operations department with the executive director in that department. That has been eliminated. It was part of the consolidation of the Financial and Administrative Services--it became redundant--so there was a vacancy created by that.

In all areas, we have looked within the department to bring forth people through other various government sectors. The Personnel services as pointed out, Sophie Gaska has come to us from Industry, Trade and Tourism. In our Research and Planning department, Ms. Linda McFadyen was a prior employee with Housing, had the background and experience, gained some more experience with Treasury Board. Here is an example where we felt that we could utilize the services in our department to get the direction that we feel that we can get out of it. So we are building up a team that has the abilities we think to be of great benefit to this for our Housing department.

Ms. Cerilli: Maybe what I am going to do is just go through some of the different positions here, because I understand that there have been other reorganizations, particularly starting off with the Winnipeg District and Housing Authority that now it is divided only into two districts the north and south--three districts? I just want to clarify if all those positions are filled or if some of them, it seems like, are still acting. It seems like lately whenever I phone in to your department, I get a different phone number. I phone in there and all of a sudden I am hooked up to Education, I am hooked up to all these people that do not have the same phone number. The phone book is useless in your department; it is very frustrating. I am wondering then if you can clarify in the Winnipeg District who are the senior managers for each of the three areas, and if they are permanent or if they are acting.

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(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Reimer: The member was asking for the names and the various sectors here in Winnipeg. What we have got is, the head of the city of Winnipeg is Adrian Deporto. He is acting as the head. Marion Sutherland in Winnipeg 1; Howard Oxer in south Winnipeg. There are two temporary individuals training in the other sector of Winnipeg, which is Winnipeg 2, and also Ron Hall, who looks after all of the rural area. So there are the three areas in Winnipeg and then the rural area.

Ms. Cerilli: So three of those six folks are acting, in the Winnipeg area. Similarly, over in Client Services--now, actually by the way I was a summer student in that branch at one time on a STEP program way back when--but I am just wondering who currently is managing that area, and is that person there on a permanent basis or is that also acting?

Mr. Reimer: The member asked who is in Client Services. The individual there is Blair Bingeman. He is the acting person in that area, because of sickness.

Ms. Cerilli: That is still Heidi, but she is ill.

Mr. Reimer: That is right.

Ms. Cerilli: She has been there a long time.

Mr. Reimer: Right.

Ms. Cerilli: You were explaining to me that it is the executive director of MHA. Is that the position that has been declared redundant?

Mr. Reimer: The one that I was referring to was the executive director in finance and operation, which is in the Department of Housing. The executive director of MHA is still here doing a great job.

Ms. Cerilli: Similarly then in the Housing Authority, the other two major divisions there are maintenance and assessment management. Do those two have a permanent person in place, or are there any vacancies there, or acting?

Mr. Reimer: In the Maintenance block is Ken Tranborg, and in the Asset Management is Lynn Tilbury.

Ms. Cerilli: Are either of those two in an acting capacity, or are they both--[interjection]

Mr. Reimer: Full time.

Ms. Cerilli: I had better pick up the pace here, or we are going to be here until next week.

I guess just to reiterate then and make the point, it does seem like there is an awful lot of change going on throughout the department. I am not sure if the minister considers 15 percent turnover among the nonmanagerial staff in the Housing Authority to be high turnover, but certainly the changes that are going on just in the positions that we have talked about, that is a very high turnover or a high rate of change.

This may be because, as the minister said, they are going through some redirection, but it seems that there has been a long period of instability then in this department, and I have asked already and I wonder if the minister could clarify, when do we see an end to this or when does the minister see an end to this?

He said that they are going through a process now of consultation. Is it when that is going to be completed, and when can we anticipate that process to be completed?

Mr. Reimer: The member should recognize that when I say 15 percent, what I am including in that figure is caretakers. I am including maintenance people, and that sector of our Housing portfolio has always experienced a fair amount of constant changeover. People move; people take on a caretaking position for a short-term time period. A lot of times it is just a matter of choice, that they want to possibly even move within our Housing sector, that they would go from place to place, and they become a statistic in a sense that they quit for awhile and then they come back.

So the 15 percent is not abnormally high in a sense. It is a figure that is associated with those types of positions that would put a skew on the whole matter of vacancy turnover, and it should not be construed that there is a mass turnover all the time just because one particular area has the numbers where it is effective.

Ms. Cerilli: I think that the member for Inkster wants to ask some questions. He said he is going to take about 15 or so minutes, so I am willing to have him ask some questions.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Thank you to the New Democratic critic. I appreciate the opportunity.

What I was wanting to ask the minister is, within the area of Meadows West, there has been a Phase 2 that has been on the books for a number of years, and a couple of years back or I guess maybe it would be around two years ago, the government entered into an agreement with Qualico to develop the Meadows West Phase 2 just north of Old Commonwealth Path, which is in my area.

I have a lot of area residents who are curious as to what the current status is with Qualico and the development of the said property.

Mr. Reimer: What the area that the member is referring to is a joint agreement that was signed in July of 1993 to develop approximately 750 residential lots in approximately 163 acres which included 124.5 acres contributed by MHRC and 38.1 acres contributed by Qualico. Qualico would act as the manager on the joint venture, and the net income would be shared proportionately between MHRC and Qualico.

We have not had any indication that there has been any financial activity or any type of direction for joint venture activity to date, and this is as of the end of February of 1997, so I can only report as to what has been brought up to date to me, that nothing is really happening.

I guess part of the reason is that the housing market that has been alluded to over the last little while in Winnipeg has been on a bit of a downer. Maybe with the new initiative that was brought forth by the City of Winnipeg for tax concessions for new development, it may spur an interest by Qualico to get into the development of their service lots, but it would appear that this is not serviced area yet. The member for Inkster may correct me on that because he would be more familiar with his own constituency.

If there are residential lots that have already been serviced, the new homeowner initiative that was announced by the city and combined with the province and the Home Builders' Association may spur activity, but like I say, that program did not pertain to undeveloped land. So if it is not developed, it would not qualify, but if it is serviced lots it could qualify which could mean that there could be some activity.

Mr. Lamoureux: Does the government have any sort of time line for Qualico to develop the 750 lots? Are there any expectations that by a set time they would have those lots completed?

Mr. Reimer: It has been pointed out that under the agreement that was signed in 1993, there was at that time an expectation that land would be developed, but, as indicated, with the housing market the way it has been in Winnipeg in the last little while, there was no initiative by Qualico to proceed with it, so nothing has happened.

I do not know exactly the time frame as to how long the agreement is for, when the expiry date is. I can find that out for the member and get it to him because we do not have that particular piece of paper with us in our briefing books, but we will endeavour to find out the length of the agreement that was signed and when it expires, certainly.

Mr. Lamoureux: I would be most definitely interested in finding that out. There are a number of residents, particularly people that live along Marion Avenue, Old Commonwealth. Right now there are buffers. It is the field. It is a huge field and they have been anxiously awaiting. There have been a lot of people waiting to see some additional housing development in that area. Because MHRC entered into an agreement with Qualico, it put some limitations on housing developments or other companies that might be interested in developing in the area.

I know that there is supposed to be some sort of a management group that oversees the agreement that was incorporated into the agreement. I would be most interested in possibly having some sort of a discussion with that if it would be appropriate for an MLA to sit down with that particular committee whenever that committee meets. The primary reason for that is just to get a better understanding as a local representative in terms of what their intentions actually are. A number of the people from within the community--Meadows West is probably about 950 households currently. It is felt that if they had these additional 700-plus households increased in the area, we might be able to see a community or a satellite community centre, possibly the infrastructure of extension of Keewatin which would hook up then to Jefferson.

There are a lot of things that are pending that could be very positive for the community as a whole by seeing this area developed. Me as the provincial representative being informed from this--you have to excuse if I do not actually know the actual wording--it is some sort of a management committee that administers the deal that the government entered into. I think it would be beneficial if in fact I could hear direct from them or possibly even meet with the provincial rep that is supposedly sitting on that management committee.

Mr. Reimer: What we would have to do, I guess, is look at the terms of reference in the agreement that was signed to find out especially the time parameters involved of how and when that it has transpired. It would seem that the initiative has to come from Qualico, you know, as to whether they want to develop it.

The member brings in legitimate concerns as to how long do they sit on the land before something happens and whether it is an agreement just for the sake of holding up the land. If it is possible that the land is developed and we get a return on it, all the better for the provincial government, because we, as the largest land holder in the package, would naturally benefit more by getting our return of money.

Qualico would act as the manager of the joint venture, and they would receive a fee, I am sure, of some sorts as part of the revenues. What I can indicate to the member is that we will try to endeavour to get more information as to whether there is a time frame. If there are meetings scheduled, and it is not of a proprietary nature in a sense of financial discussions between Qualico and this government, we can possibly even invite the member to some sort of awareness meeting between Qualico and MHRC as to what the intents are in the sense of keeping you abreast as the member for the area as to what is happening.

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Everything would revolve around the willingness of the partner, specifically Qualico, to have this type of openness in their negotiations. I could not speculate as to what they may or may not say. I am sure the member would recognize that there is certain proprietary information in any type of financial discussions that two partners do not want to have exposed to outside persons. If that is the nature then, what we can do though is we can relate to the member some of the time frames and the parameters of expectations, when it is supposed to happen or if it is going to happen, and when the expiry date of the agreement is. Those we can supply.

Mr. Lamoureux: Finally, Mr. Chairperson, I would appreciate that information. It would be wonderful if in fact I could meet with the group that the minister is potentially suggesting that might be able to accommodate me.

What I am interested in obviously is ultimately how it is developed, where they are going to put the lakes, for example, or the mini-ponds, whatever it is that one is going to call it. There has been somewhat a lack of an overall plan in this area, and to be able to contribute would definitely be beneficial, if not for me directly, at least to meet with some Qualico reps and suggest one or two residents who I know would provide very creative advice and opinions and thoughts in terms of the community, the Meadows West Phase 1, if you like, and how the two communities could complement each other thereby allowing for better sales of houses and so forth.

So I welcome the comments from the minister and again appreciate the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) allowing me to put forward questions currently. Thank you.

Mr. Reimer: What we could also possibly provide the member with is maybe the names of the people who have been involved on the Qualico end of the scenario. We can get those names also and provide them for the member.

Ms. Cerilli: I will get back to, I guess, the issue that I was starting to deal with. I started off by talking about the changes in the management level and a lot of the staff turnover that has been going on in the department. I was just getting a chance to go over again some of the information I have had passed on to me from the consultations that the ministry has been having with the staff. There are some trends here, and I am wondering if this is not related to the changes, the redirection, the change in management.

Questions were asked of the staff, what prevents us individually and collectively from delivering great performance to our clients, and there is a trend where they are saying things like organizational fragmentation prevents effective communication and teamwork; sharing resources causes unnecessary duplication of effort; lack of clear and evolving mission statement that is regularly updated; budgetary constraints; lack of consistent direction; insufficient use or lack of resources; lack of training; lack of information and decision making; lack of authority to make decisions; lack of support; chain of command not defined; some clients' needs are beyond their mandate and expertise, which I guess relates to training; clients' reluctance and fear to communicate their needs suggests some problems there; political interference; frustration with all of the above; the way that recent changes were introduced.

This goes on. This is from a number of the different groups that were part of these consultations--poor management supervision; manager supervision not available for support; policy procedures not being applied or staff not aware of the policies; bogged down and useless paperwork.

It goes on. Another group is saying they are prevented from doing a good job because there is lack of support from management and their peers; there is lack of understanding of the entire operation and what their mandate is; more open communication for management and peers; more adequate training.

I am wondering how the minister and his department are responding to these concerns. I get complaints, as I am sure other MLAs do, that not only have Manitoba Housing Authority properties in their constituency, but I guess I may get more complaints being the critic, but I think this is a serious problem. It is pointing to some serious problems. So, first of all, I am wondering how the minister and his department are responding to this.

Mr. Reimer: The member brings up an excellent area of discussion, because I think what the member is referring to is a lot of the frustrations that the staff had and to a degree still have in trying to come to a resolve on the change that we are trying to implement into the--prior to the change that we are trying to implement in the department. I should mention to the member that a lot of this started for the first time when we invited all staff over to the Winnipeg Art Gallery. What we did there was, we introduced all the staff to the financial picture and the financial implications and the departmental responsibilities to all staff in the Housing department.

What it did for the first time, it showed them the magnitude of what they are involved with, the literally tens of millions of dollars that they have a jurisdiction of some sort or another in making decisions as to where money should go, how it is allocated, whose responsibility it is and everything else like that with the idea of, when I was asked to come forth with my department budget and I was given a figure of it, I in consultation with my deputy said, well, who should be making these decisions really is the staff, the people that are on the front line, the people that are involved with the department, the people that make the decision as to what and how and where we buy things and what and where and how we spend things and where the revenues come through.

So we said, well, let us put it on the big screen and give them the opportunity to make the decisions as to how we can hit our budgetary figures. It was tremendously interesting to be at that meeting, because a lot of people for the first time had never seen figures like that before, had never seen the magnitude of what was involved with their department. What we did was, we did not show them or give them our objective of what we figured that we wanted out of our budget. We asked them to go back to your departments and just within yourselves and within your sector and within your group and things like that, you come up with where you can save money, as much as you think that you can save.

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We did that and then we will get together in cluster groups in sector and we will bring those numbers together and we will analyze them and see what is doable, and we will look at how you feel can save money. Once those figures all came back, I think the figure that they came up with was a saving of approximately--sorry for digressing there just for a second, because I thought it was very important that the number that they came up with was a lot lower than what we had actually had as a budgetary figure for a savings within our department.

It was refreshing to see that there were a lot of things that they figured that they could save money on that we had never even considered. We settled in on a figure of savings of, I think it was around, what, 2 percent, approximately 2 percent. In their analysis they came up with a figure of about between 3 percent and 4 percent that they figured that they could save. We appreciated, you know, the aggressiveness of their analysis, but we settled with the approximate 2 percent figure.

What had started and what we encouraged was the fact of having this bottom-up approach to do an analysis of our department. So what we have set up is four teams within Manitoba Housing. We have also set up a quality service council to try to look at a lot of the things that the member has talked about, because out of that initial meeting at the Art Gallery, we then went and had various meetings. I think we had about 10 meetings of various groupings of the department. We asked them to go through various stages of where they figured that they could help their job, how they could help their fellow employee in a service-first type of attitude, not only service to our clients that we serve through Manitoba Housing but service to each other within the same department, within the same floor.

This is where a lot of the frustrations came out that the member is referring to in the listing of concerns that the people have come forth with. It serves as an excellent starting point to try to resolve these problems. It would be nice if we could wave the magic wand and everything would be satisfied, but it is a tremendous first start to getting the department involved with the bottom-up approach of servicing their clients, servicing their customers, and servicing the people that they serve, not only within our department but how they interrelate with other departments. We would like to correct a lot of the areas that the member has mentioned, and I think that we are onto a very positive first start with this.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister did not really answer my question, but he raised another one. This whole exercise, the consultation, was designed to involve staff in budget consultation. You are wanting to find efficiencies, make some budget reductions, and you want to involve the staff in that process. The minister is nodding. I am assuming he means that is it .

In the meantime, they are identifying all of these organizational concerns, management concerns, staff relation concerns, other problems in the department. I am not sure if that is what the minister is suggesting now that those are a by-product of what this consultation was intended to do, but as the minister has acknowledged, there are some serious issues that are being conveyed here. There seems to be a trend through all the different groups that were participating in this, all the staff that were participating.

I am wanting the minister to clarify then. This was initiated as a staff involvement in the budget exercise, but then what it has turned out to become is staff identifying all sorts of other concerns that they have in the department that deal with administration and management.

Mr. Reimer: The budget was one part of getting the department involved. It is a very, very significant part naturally of our department, because we are naturally concerned about any type of parameters that we have to deal with in our budgetary limitations. The reason that I mentioned the budget part of it was because it was just one area where this type of philosophy and this type of direction had never happened within the department. Also, the fact of having discussions groups and working groups come together for discussion, about 10 groupings of about 10 various meetings, was something else that also had never happened in the department.

It was an ongoing scenario of events, and the budget process was one of them that brought forth what I was alluding to, in a sense, at the Art Gallery, but it is one of the scenarios that we are working with. One of the biggest things is just to have, like I say, the quality service council set up. We have four teams working on trying to work through some of these concerns that the member brought up. We are very involved with this bottom-up approach of trying to get people involved with the decision making and the quality assurances and the Service First program that we have in the department. So it is a step, there are a series of steps and a series of situations that all fall together as you go through this approach to our department. The budget was just one part of it.

Ms. Cerilli: So what is happening then is the ministry is setting up this council within the department that is going to try to address the concerns that are being raised. They are going through some other reorganization. I will deal, first of all, with this committee or council, and I understand there would be some staff who are nonmanagement staff, line staff, that would participate in that too. Is that correct? How are those people selected? Is that process complete?

Mr. Reimer: The service council that I referred to is a wide-ranging council. It is composed of I think it is around 10 to 12 people on that council. It has management. It has line workers, if you want to call it. It has other staff on it. It is a cross-section of people who are on that council who are addressing some of the concerns.

Ms. Cerilli: I wanted to know how those people are going to be selected and what the compilation is and when that council is going to be established.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

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Mr. Reimer: The council is selected. It is an entity as itself right now. I will just find out the selection process. As mentioned, there are 12 people on the committee; I have been told, four from management and eight from the line workers, if you want to call it. The selection was done by asking people to submit their names who wanted to serve on the committee and then from there, four teams were also developed in addition to these twelve people on the quality service council. So it is people within that have submitted their names that want to be involved plus the four managers that are from the department and the MHA Housing. These are two-year appointments, if you want to call them, with the directions that they are setting up for themselves.

Ms. Cerilli: How many total names were submitted from the staff?

Mr. Reimer: We do not have the exact number. I am giving her a guesstimate from the department. It is upwards of 60 people that have submitted their names for consideration, approximately.

Ms. Cerilli: So how did the department select, other than the management, eight out of the 60?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, this was certainly a bottom-up philosophy of setting up the system because it was done even in regards to the selection of the quality service council with the four managers and the other eight individuals to make up the 12. It was done by an outside person that was seconded to do the selection for this committee. The quality service council then, in setting up their teams of upwards of six people per team, when we have four teams, also utilized some of the names that were brought forth. These were more or less the initiative of the individuals in the department in picking people to sit on the council, and we went along with the names.

Ms. Cerilli: Are any of the names of the people on the council, the eight line staff, are any of them shop stewards?

Mr. Reimer: I could not answer that. I do not know whether they were or not. We had people that were caretakers right up to management that have been selected so. I do not know their affiliation. We can check on that to find out.

Ms. Cerilli: I just wanted to make sure that you understand my question. I mean, I am talking about not shop stewards as in a caretaker but shop stewards as representing their bargaining unit with their union.

Mr. Reimer: We can find out. I just do not know at this time. I said that word again, I do not know. I should not have said that.

Ms. Cerilli: We will find out. So, I just wanted to clarify though that the mandate for this group. Is it in fact to deal with some of these issues that have been raised through this consultation?

Mr. Reimer: Most definitely, yes. That is the purpose, and the raison d'etre for it is really to look after a lot of those areas that were mentioned by the member and others and new areas too.

Ms. Cerilli: This council that is dealing with all these management and personnel issues, are they meeting already? Have they met? I mean, what has come out of any of these meetings?

Mr. Reimer: I have been told that there have been four meetings that they have had. They have had discussions regarding the problems that the teams have brought forth for consideration and resolve. So, it is an ongoing and effective council that is already moving with meetings and hopefully come up with some solid recommendations.

Ms. Cerilli: I wonder what the time line is for these, if there is some prioritization of some of the concerns that I have put on the record here, if there are some plans that are in place. I have the time line that was set out for the consultations that were undertaken, but I am wondering if you can tell me any other time line or plan.

Mr. Reimer: Yes, as each problem or concern is brought forth, there is a time frame allocated to it for resolve or for direction, so that there is a system that has been set up for an evaluation as to the effectiveness of it, yes.

Ms. Cerilli: And there will be some kind of follow-up consultation process to do some evaluation down the road. Are you planning another meeting at the Art Gallery?

Mr. Reimer: I think that is an excellent suggestion that the member for Radisson has brought forth. I did not think of that. We will certainly try to encourage any type of co-operation between all levels of management, including the minister with the staff.

Ms. Cerilli: What prompted this whole process? I mean, is this something that is occurring in all government departments? I know that there is this Service First office that has been set up for the provincial government. Is Department of Housing one of the first to do this? It seems so.

Mr. Reimer: Well, I guess it is part of the so-called if you want to call it management style of the Minister of Housing that is presently there. I am a firm believer in not only delegating authority but also surrounding myself with the best possible staff that I can get.

Decision making on a ministerial level takes an awful lot of confidence in the people that you have around you. I am very fortunate that the team that I am getting around me in Housing right from the caretakers up, if you want to call it, are people who have the conscientious effort of trying to improve this department.

I am a firm believer in bottom-up management. I have the opportunity as the minister of this department to implement that type of philosophy. I think that the best way to manage a large entity such as this with so many people is to have them part of the decision making. It fits to a degree what the member referred to as the Service First Initiative that has been initiated by this government.

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I have just taken it upon myself through my deputy and through my senior staff to give them the direction that this is what I would like to see happening in my department. I feel that is the best way that people can be part of the decision making. People can take pride in the decision making, and people can see the results of their decision making, and they can participate in the decision making which is even more important. So I am a firm advocate of trying to get the best people around me, so that I do not have to do anything.

Ms. Cerilli: I will leave that last comment alone for the time being. I have in front of me one of the documents for the Service First Initiative, Better Methods update, and it talks about, Better Methods is committed to a $5-million government-wide workforce adjustment program including but not limited to retraining, redeployment and job search training. Choices will be tailored to the individual.

What does this mean? This $5-million government-wide workforce adjustment, is that money that is going to be spent on this Service First program? Is that money that is going to be saved? I mean, you had said that this whole consultation process was supposed to identify savings in your department. Can you clarify that for me?

Mr. Reimer: Firstly, the number that the member mentioned regarding the $5 million, that is not strictly for our department. That is for the 14,000 employees of government. The Service First Initiative is meant to, in a sense, look at the best way and the most efficient way of utilizing the manpower and the asset base that we have which are the employees of our department. I can only say that it is a government initiative and our department has bought into it. I can only think that there would be new avenues and new directions and new changes that will come about. I think that by having the--and I am repeating myself--by saying that if the employees are part of it and part of the contributory factors of it, change does not become a threat to the employees, it becomes an opportunity for achievement and for contribution. So, I think that our department is one of the departments that is responding to the Service First Initiative on a I feel a very positive manner, and I will encourage it as much as I can within our department to continue that way.

Ms. Cerilli: I was giving the minister an opportunity to explain to me a little bit about how the program works. To me, this is saying that that there is a $5-million government-wide worker adjustment program looking at how to basically eliminate $5 million of costs. Because, especially when you are talking about retraining and job search techniques for staff says to me that $5 million is going to be a saving from the civil service or a loss of $5-million worth of civil service staff, and I have lots of questions about that.

First of all, how many of those people are going to come from Housing? What areas are going to be identified? The minister is saying that this is all about bottom-up consultations and staff participation, but in the end there is a certain percentage of the staff that are going to be redeployed or moved. Can you clarify that?

Mr. Reimer: I guess to look at the Service First Initiative that the province is embarking on, it is true that all departments within the government are being contributory towards the objectives of this. It really is components of various sectors in looking at the total package of what is before us in trying to come to the realization of the figures that the member mentioned. One of the components is the better methods philosophy of financial accounting and the direction of human resources in this particular area of evaluation under Service First. The other, and that I have alluded to also from time to time in my discussion is the better service initiative under the Service First Initiative and that has to do with the interaction of the individuals within their department and other departments and the clients that they serve and the relationship of how best to get good service product and services delivered not only within the departments but within the service that is required to satisfy what government needs. It utilizes information technology under this sector also, in the Service First.

The third one, I guess, if you want to put it in context, is the desktop management philosophy. That alludes to the computerization and the computer programming of the government, and I believe that was just announced very recently by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura). It also includes the hardware acquisitions and the related training in software and development along that way.

The other one that has been mentioned and was talked about in the House just the other day was the coming of the year 2000 and the technology and the preparation that we have for that.

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So Service First covers a wide parameter of redirection by government. We are part of this philosophy in a small way with our department in looking at the overall scope of our government with 14,000 various employees. It takes an awful lot of reshaping and redirection to bring forth this philosophy. When the member mentions the savings of $5 million, there will be a lot of redirection of exposures as we go along this path.

Ms. Cerilli: How about this, how much did the various all-staff meetings cost the department?

Mr. Reimer: Roughly around a thousand dollars when we rented the Art Gallery and the doughnuts, the coffee, the serviettes, and the sugar cubes. We used the Norquay Building a lot, and that was free. There we bought the coffee, again with sugar, Sugar Twin, and little stir sticks. So these things all add up a little bit at a time. I would think that about a thousand dollars should cover it, a tremendously good investment for the results that we are getting out of it, money well spent.

Ms. Cerilli: You have described that there is, as I understand it, three different parts of this Service First Initiative. There is the Better Methods which deals with accounting and use of staff, redeployment of staff, letting staff go perhaps. Then there is the second part which is information technology, something you have called desktop management. Then the last is teams, which you have also developed, and this committee.

Will this committee be dealing with all of those areas? Will the committee be involved in looking at the redeployment of staff and the cost savings there, the Better Methods side of it, or is that something that is completely a management function dealt with by the folks sitting around your table here, or will this committee be involved in all of those areas?

Mr. Reimer: What I think the committee will be involved with is more or less a lot of the things that were mentioned previously by the member in regard to concerns. I do not have that copy with me that she refers to but I recall seeing it. There is a long myriad of concerns, and it was requested that way, that we were wanting to get the people to give us the concerns they had, give us the areas where they felt that we should be looking at change, where they felt that they can make change. We encourage that type of response because it is from those types of things that you can build towards getting a resolve.

The teams will be looking at that type of scenario, trying to come to some sort of resolve in coming up with solutions. The quality service council has the ability to look at these recommendations, come forth with recommendations. Implementation of it, naturally, comes through the management of our department, and I guess as the Minister of Housing, there will be a certain amount of exposure that I will have to some of the recommendations that they come out of.

So it is an ongoing process, and, hopefully, as mentioned, we can try to get some of the other components established and corrected.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, what is happening here is you are getting the staff involved for the department deciding how to make cuts, how to make reductions in programs, services and the way the staff are utilized. You had said earlier that you were actually surprised where you had--and you can clarify me if I misunderstood you. Management had thought that there could be 2 percent savings found in the department and that there was actually $48 million to $52 million that were identified by the staff. You had mentioned that figure. Maybe I did not understand you, but, basically, 4 percent.

Mr. Reimer: Just as a clarification, we were looking for approximately about a 2 percent reduction in our budget. Staff, when they got through with their analysis, they came up with almost 4 percent, which in essence was in relationship to a $2-million saving to a $4-million saving.

I should point out that staff would not be involved with the decision making of cuts, cutting of staff, or anything like that, no. They would be involved with working conditions and the expenditure reductions, the flowing of information, the co-ordinating of information, but any type of staff cuts would still be the responsibility of management and not the council itself.

Ms. Cerilli: I am not suggesting that they would be making the decisions, but you are asking them to make recommendations.

One of the things I have heard about the department is that there is not a very efficient way in how the Manitoba Housing Authority does its purchasing for its maintenance, that there could be some savings made there. Maybe that is one of the things that the staff have identified, and that is one of the questions I want to get to.

But, first of all, I am wanting to understand that basically the staff have identified a way that there could be approximately 4 percent efficiencies or savings found in the department. I am wondering if you have looked at these recommendations and if you could tell me the ones that you like, the ones that you think make sense, if the area that I have referred to is one of the kinds of things that they are recommending in terms of purchasing, bulk purchasing for materials, for maintenance, that type of thing.

I mentioned in my opening statement the Power Smart program, if it is those kinds of conservation programs or if there are other things. I am wondering if you have got a list of recommendations that have come out of this process that you are considering.

Mr. Reimer: I think when we ask the individual departments and individual sectors to go back into looking at savings, it had nothing to do with the reduction of staff. It was more or less along the lines of where they can save, possibly in the buying of pencils, the purchasing of equipment, or the care of the grounds and the equipment that is involved, in that type of component. We, as a Housing department, budget almost, what is it, about $40 million. I am not too sure what our maintenance number is approximately--about $25 million.

Within that $25 million, there was a lot of areas that can be looked at and say that maybe we can save money here, maybe we can save money there, by consolidating and things like that. It is only when you get people together--and the comment was made by some of the caretakers--we never talk to each other in a sense. This is the first time we ever got together to talk about common problems. It was surprising some of the caretakers came up to me and said, you know, I have got ways to save money; I know how to save money; I want to be part of this approach to being able to contribute to where I know that there is an overlap or duplication, or where I can share a certain type of purchasing power or utilization of equipment with somebody else that is just down the street in another complex.

Those small amounts even though they are small on an individual basis, when you combine them all, it amounts to an awful lot of money; in fact, it amounts to millions of dollars. This is why when we ask the department to sort of look at itself as to where we could save this money, it did not have any connotation of staff reductions. We were not recommending that they go back and say who in somebody else's department should not be there, eliminated, or anything like that. It was more or less within the confines of the decision making that they as an individual, or they as a group or within their sector, could make decisions for saving money. This is where they came up with that number of approximately $4 million that they felt they could save.

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As mentioned, we ended up with a $2-million saving in our department, which was on our budget line.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Just to continue--some of the recommendations that the employees came up with was they said we should have tougher collection policies in our arrears in our rental policy. They asked for consolidation of branches. They made that type of recommendation. They mentioned the length of service contracts to people that we buy service from, that we can possibly make a saving like that. A good example is elevator maintenance. Possibly we should be looking at--instead of looking on a short-term basis, look on a long-term basis and possibly we can negotiate better savings. A good example of one of the recommendations was in the purchasing of appliances that we should be looking at bulk purchasing of some sort in trying to come up with even a better price when we go through our appliances, because we do go through a fair amount of replacements of our fridges, stoves, and things like that. These are some of the things that the employees themselves have come up with, and they will save us money.

Ms. Cerilli: So you have listed a few examples here. I am wondering if there is a report compiling all these recommendations, if that is going to be included in the annual report, say, for the department or any other kind of report that the department is required to produce, so that there can be some accountability? How is this going to be followed up, dealt with, and reported on?

Mr. Reimer: I think that because the suggestions are fluid in nature, they come and they go because of certain circumstances and certain situations as the various individuals that are responsible are addressing the problems. It is hard to put it into a formal basis of this is what I, as the minister, expect out of the department, that once this saving has been identified, I can say that I expect that to be there all the time.

I would rather have the ability to let the department and the individuals that are on the frontline, if you want, recognize when there is the availability to make a decision or recognize that there is ability to make a savings somewhere along the line, that there is not that rigidity that says, well, I cannot do that because it is not part of a report or a recommendation in a formal manner, in a sense, that it has to go through the so-called right to the chain of command and everything else of that.

It is not that I am advocating a free-range decision making within the department. I think I have to give the employees the ability to think on their feet in the sense of saying that, hey, possibly you know these are some of the things that we should be doing right now and not wait for the chain of command that goes up to the manager, to the assistant deputy, to the deputy, to the minister, and things like that that take so much time to make a decision. They can make decisions almost in the field with a minimum of length of time for the savings, because sometimes these things just happen instantaneously. The individual, whether it is a caretaker or one of the division managers in south Winnipeg, where he or she sees that there is a saving because of a sale on at Leon's, that they are selling some good deals on fridges, that we should be jumping in there. So, I want them to make those decisions.

Ms. Cerilli: That is fine, but that is not the question I asked. I asked about some kind of reporting of this whole process and the recommendations from the consultation with the staff on the way that they could identify some savings and efficiencies. Part of the process that we are going through in Estimates is about accountability.

I hear, as well, recommendations from people in the field, for example, maintenance employees in rural areas having to drive increased amounts now because of the way the regions are configured and the way that they are required to conduct their maintenance. We could look at the transportation line in the budget and see if that is one of the things that could be dealt with as a way of saving money.

There are all sorts of other examples that we can get into, but what I am interested in finding out is I would like to see the report or the complete listing of all the recommendations that have come through that process, and then to be able to see if they are going to be followed up on. So, I guess, what I am getting at is will I be able to get a copy of the recommendations for efficiencies in housing in the province, and what kind of method is there going to be for evaluating these and seeing if they are going to be implemented?

Mr. Reimer: I guess, one of the easiest ways to evaluate the effectiveness is in the adage the proof is in the pudding, in a sense of seeing how it is going to transpire. The council is on a two-year term, if you want to call it. It is not that I intend to disband it or anything, but I think that it is like anything. You put time frames in asking for expectations. I think I rely on that type of philosophy that unless we have some sort of time frame or we put some objectives or we put some accountability of reporting into the system, the system just sort of gets too loose.

I can agree with the member that the reporting is something that will be followed up in a sense, not only by myself but by management, as to the effectiveness of it because we have only had--I think it is--four meetings. I think it will be too premature to start to get into a formalization of what has transpired and what is coming out of it. I think that I would feel more comfortable in approaching the council and the teams in, say, six months or even a year, and saying, let us look back, what have you done, where are you, and what are your objectives so that we can give some sort of measure of results with it.

If I, as minister or deputy minister, give the appearance of control and of wanting the rigid results on a formal basis, I think it takes away from that freedom of participation. I would rather the council and the teams work within their own guidelines that they, themselves, are setting up with the understanding that naturally they are going to be asked for a certain accountability by myself and by my senior administration as to what we are doing. It is only natural that you question your effectiveness of going along these paths that we are advocating. Some of it, for a lot of the individuals and for the department, is a new approach. It is a brand new approach in a sense of trying to work this way.

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I think it is like anything; you have to give people the ability to make mistakes. If you do not give them that ability to correct themselves, then nothing will happen. I do not want to be perceived, and I do not want my deputy to be perceived, that they do not have the ability to make decisions or to make recommendations, because there is too strong of an accountability that I expect out of them.

I am not looking for glorious awakening of a new dawn over there on Broadway or on 185 Smith. I think that it is a good positive initiative and a good start that somewhere, maybe a year from now, we can look back and say, my gosh, we have gone a long way since what we did in this building a year ago compared to what we are going to be doing now and what we have got planned for the next year.

Those are some of the measurement criteria that I look forward to. It is just in dealing with people, it is hard to put a formality of design on people's initiative. I would rather they have the ability to make decisions, possibly even on the fly and make maybe even a wrong decision than not make a decision at all. I have no problems with that. Some people will make mistakes, there is no doubt about it. Some people will be hesitant to make a decision, but at least give them the opportunity to make the decision. I think that is how you can get character in the department. I do not really feel that I want to be too formal in the structure of accountability in the sense of the rigidity of a program that is down, sort of, in a black-and-white, and a you-can or you-cannot-do type of scenario.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, I do not want to spend too much more time on this particular question, but this is a key area. You have staff who are making recommendations for how the department could be more efficiently managing its resources. I think it is important that there be some report that is done of that. We have a report of the recommendations that are more related to staff, communication, and relationships and that kind of thing. There are some questions that you asked that deal with how the housing authority can compete more effectively. Maybe there are some recommendations that would have come out in there, but it does not seem like it. So I am asking that I receive some kind of an accounting of the recommendations from the staff to more efficiently deal with the Housing portfolio it has.

Mr. Reimer: I can agree with the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). I think that the philosophy that we share may be different politically. But, I think that we share the same concern that the human resources and the utilization of the human assets, that we have in our department, are of vital importance. I can give her the assurance that as this unfolds, if there is the willingness, I can keep her updated as to what is happening, and how things are transpiring regarding the council, and some of the things that are happening with it.

I feel that I would like, as mentioned, at least six months to a year, and possibly when we sit around the table next year at the Housing Estimates--if we are still in the same positions as minister and critic--that I will request a more formal update as to what has transpired regarding the quality service council, so that there is more of a formal report at that time.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister seems to be mixing apples and oranges. He told me earlier that the council is not going to deal with the kind of resource issues that we have been discussing now in terms of cost savings. They are dealing more with the communication, information flow, those kinds of issues. So now he has just told me in answering my question about my getting information about the recommendations for how there could be more efficiencies in the department, he says he will keep me up to date on the council. So he has not answered the question again, but I am going to move on. I am going to move on, and I will come back to that.

I would really like to see what the staff has to say about developing efficiencies and cost savings, because I know in Estimates we have talked about this before. We have talked about the management, particularly with public housing.

I want to sort of link two things here before we completely run out of time, and that is the concerns that have been raised through this consultation process, about the staff talking about low morale, talking about problems with communication, staff relations, and then complaints about the staff, and there is a relationship here. My office, MLAs generally, your office, you get complaints about the staff, the way that they are dealing with some staff or tenants, that kind of thing. I am wondering if the department sees that there is a correlation here. I understand there can be problems with staff workload. We have already discussed the fact that staff are not necessarily being replaced in positions where there is a vacancy. So I am interested in knowing how the minister sees that relationship, and how he is dealing with complaints of staff, the numbers of complaints about staff and the process for dealing with those complaints.

Mr. Reimer: I have to outline to the member that the so-called chain of command for complaints usually goes through my personnel services, Ms. Sophie Gaska. She is not here with us right now. I could not give the member any indication as to what degree, amount of staff problems, or grievances that come before us, before her. I do not get that many direct letters from staff in the department or inquiries from the staff in the department. It is not that my office is closed in any way. I certainly have made myself available to anybody in our department, whether they want to phone me or I phone them. I phone right into the department all the time. If I have got a question, a concern, or want to know something, they have always been readily available for me.

Coming back the other way, whether they want to phone me or my deputy, I have encouraged them to do that on a basis, if they have concerns or any type of problem on an ongoing basis. I think you have to have that type of openness within the department. But, as to the magnitude of whether there is--

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Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The time being 5 p.m., committee rise.