Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): While they continue to avoid debate on Bill 67, members opposite have been saying a great deal about the role of Crown corporations within the province of Manitoba, but what they have failed to note, Madam Speaker, are comments made by the New Democratic Party that support our government's decision.

For example, the NDP have in the past compared Crown corporations to a car. They stated: As many of us, if even we have a car, in many cases we like to hang on to it. We have some kind of feeling that it was a special one, that it was made just for us even if it gets to be 10 or 20 years old in some cases, and we drive it and drive it because we think there is no better car. Well, human nature being what it is, sometimes people do not make the decisions as quickly as they should to get out of a messy situation.

As well, the NDP have noted that there are many aspects of the mandates of the Crown corporations that have to be reviewed from time to time. They cannot just be left there to stalemate and perhaps become outdated, not relevant to the current situations, and so they have to be reviewed from time to time. These comments voiced by members of the New Democratic Party describe exactly the current debate occurring in this House.

MTS has fulfilled its mandate of universal service. However, as MTS requires a tremendous infusion of capital to modernize its services and remain competitive, we cannot allow it to become outdated.

The current situation MTS finds itself in is very different from that of 80 years ago.

As much as the NDP would like to remain mired in the past, our government has reviewed the situation and has made a decision in the long-term best interests of all Manitobans.

I would encourage, Madam Speaker, even appeal to the members opposite to think about these comments put forward by their colleagues and to vote for the future and not the past. Thank you.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): It is indeed regrettable that this government is defying public opinion and insists upon pushing through legislation to privatize the MTS.

I would remind the members opposite that a recent survey indicated that 67.3 percent of Manitobans were opposed to this and 78.1 percent of rural Manitobans were against the sale of MTS. The town of Killarney is against the sale of MTS or is concerned about it. The City of Brandon wanted public hearings before a decision was made, and the Manitoba Wheat Pool, the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, seniors groups, many, many groups in Manitoba are opposed to this sale. The government has no mandate. It did not make it an issue in the last election. It did not hold public hearings. It has no basis, no public support for this.

Frankly, Madam Speaker, the government's economic rationale is faulty. The member from Killarney or Turtle Mountain talked about the need for capital infusion. The fact is that MTS, as a publicly owned operation, is able to acquire new capital. Its being financed by bonds is not unusual. This is the way publicly owned utilities are financed. As a matter of fact, the debt burden has come down, but, regardless, that cost is in the rates, and Manitoba's rates are very, very low. It is very easy to get out of debt or to sustain more debt through higher rates. The fact is, it is the consumers that ultimately pay.

As I pointed out earlier, this is a very limited competitive situation. It is still a monopoly, monopolistic, and it is still regulated by the CRTC, so the area of competition is extremely limited.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to this government to stop going against the majority wishes and to withdraw Bill 67.

Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, until recently Manitoba has had a reputation for enjoying one of the healthiest populations of sharp-tailed grouse or prairie chickens, as they are more commonly known, in North America. Due to the changes in the habitat, sharp-tailed numbers have declined significantly recently, and they will continue to do so until habitat restoration measures are taken to halt this unfortunate occurrence.

On Monday, November 18, I had the pleasure of presenting a cheque to the Sharp-tailed Plus Foundation Inc. President, Mr. Ernest Schnell, under the Special Conservation Fund of the Department of Natural Resources. The provincial grant will assist with the sharp-tailed grouse habitat improvement project in the Sandridge Wildlife Management Area.

Madam Speaker, on July 8, 1994, in Vita, Manitoba, an agreement was signed establishing the nonprofit volunteer group dedicated to restoring sharp-tailed grouse. This agreement is quite significant since it is the first of its kind to be aimed at the restoration of this species. Sharp-tailed grouse enjoy the open grass and brushland typical of Manitoba's aspen parkland but, due to fire suppression, this type of habitat has been lost.

Currently there are three projects taking place across the province, in the towns of Vita, Lundar and Plumas. Sustainable farming initiatives that are occurring in these areas such as rotational grazing, brush control, haying techniques and edge management will not show final results for another two years. However, these initiatives are showing positive results in terms of profitability. These initiatives will change land management, involve farm productivity and maintain open grass and brushland habitat and create a suitable environment for the species and improve our land for agriculture at the same time.

Madam Speaker, I would like to applaud the Sharp-tailed Plus Foundation for their efforts in sustaining an appropriate environment for the species and for dedication to this very extensive project. Thank you.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, having sat through the hearings on Bill 67, the Manitoba Telephone privatization bill, it is obvious that Manitobans do not support this government. The recent CBC-commissioned poll confirms that the majority of Manitobans, particularly those in rural Manitoba, do not want to see that utility privatized. I have to wonder, then, where the member for Morris (Mr. Pitura) has been when he says, and I quote, that after the hearings--I think after going through the hearings and hearing what people are saying, I am probably as convinced as I ever was that the direction we are going in is the right direction for all Manitobans if we want the mandate of health care and education and family services.

Where has this member been? He says he sat through hearings and he is convinced. Madam Speaker, 185 people presented; only three supported the government. This member has not been listening to the people of Manitoba, nor has he been listening to his constituents who say, and I quote, I do not think there is justification for privatization, says resident Bill Toews. I think it is ideological, and I think perhaps the government did not read the public's view on this one. I sort of take exception to a rural MLA stating the majority of his constituents support what they are saying, he added, noting that rural Manitobans have a very real sense of control over rural utilities.

Madam Speaker, he goes on to say he is very concerned about what this government intends to do with Hydro. But it is not only the member's residents of Morris who are concerned with what this government is doing. The member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) should take note to what his constituents are saying, and I quote from a letter from a Turtle Mountain constituent, there is no case for private companies offering better results and being more competitive. The list of failures and/or troubles of companies is just staggering, and also one cannot see how a new owner can operate without generating profit margins to satisfy the shareholders.

Madam Speaker, there are constituents right across southern Manitoba, the UMM, Pool delegates, seniors, all are opposing this government. This government should wake up and smell the coffee. Rural Manitoba does not support you on this one.