Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer), that Bill 300, The Salvation Army Catherine Booth Bible College Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation le Collège biblique Catherine Booth de l'Armée du Salut, be now read a third time and passed.

Motion presented.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to.

(Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that

WHEREAS the most rapidly growing source of revenue for the government is gambling; and

WHEREAS the rapid expansion of gambling in the province has also increased the number of addiction problems suffered by Manitobans; and

WHEREAS recent figures from the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba show that enrollment of programs geared toward treating persons with gambling addictions have almost doubled since last year; and

WHEREAS recent AFM figures show that contrary to the Volberg report which describe the profile of a problem gambler as a young, unmarried male, the majority of people seeking treatment are between the ages of 51 and 64 years; and

WHEREAS gambling affects all segments of society; and

WHEREAS the impact of gaming activity on Manitoba communities may be socially draining as opposed to economically profitable; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation continues to promote gambling through internal marketing.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider reallocating $1.6 million from image advertising to the AFM for the provision of gambling addition treatment programs; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request the provincial government immediately to consider working in conjunction with the AFM to combat the problem of gambling amongst all ages and demographic groups of people; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly request that the provincial government consider ensuring that the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation not promote gambling, including encouraging marketing activities amongst any one demographic group.

Motion presented.

Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this resolution.

I want to stress, first of all, that despite the Desjardins commission, despite the recommendations of the Desjardins commission and the fact that some of them are being implemented by the government, perhaps in some cases halfheartedly with the establishment of a commission which does not have very much strength, the situation in this province is that the government is still being driven by revenue in terms of gambling decisions.

(Madam Speaker in the Chair)

It is coincidental to the introduction of this resolution that just a few days ago the Lotteries Corporation announced it is extending the hours at the casinos here in Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, once again we are seeing revenue come before the social problems that can occur from gambling. I want to stress how significant those social problems are. I think everyone in this room today, everyone in this Chamber knows in their community the impact gambling is having.

You know what I did, Madam Speaker? I actually went to the casinos--to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), not during the strike, but I went to the casinos several months before the strike and talked to many of the people that worked in the facility. What was very interesting, there are people that go into those casinos at opening time and quite literally stay there until closing time. They sell six packs of Tylenol a week. People in that smoky environment, eating not necessarily the most nutritious food, and, I mean, these are people that are there literally hours and hours.

This most recent decision is going to do what? It is going to extend those hours. I understand that it is a concern related to tour groups, but there many people who will stay that additional three hours. I have talked to people who work in the many bars and restaurants in Manitoba and they tell me that they see on a daily basis the gambling addiction many people have with VLTs. People spend their entire pay cheque.

What is frustrating to my mind is, if you are in a bar and you drink too much, servers are legally bound and also trained, as part of the server intervention program, to prevent you from consuming too much alcohol, but you know what? In Manitoba there is no ability to do that with gambling, to maybe say to someone, maybe you played VLTs maybe one too many times.

I want to throw this out. We are often accused in the opposition of simply criticizing, but there is a casino in the United States that has a server intervention program. They have empowered their staff to be able to say to someone that may be addicted to gambling, perhaps you should stop at this point.

You know, if there is any concern about the legality of that, I would point out that, for members who are not aware, you can actually bar yourself from a gambling facility operated by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. You can actually tell them, I do not want to be let in this institution. I think that is important, because we already allow for that to take place voluntarily through that, and if we were to look at something like a server intervention program, I think that could have some distinct possibilities to deal with the big problems.

It is not recreation gamblers. My family are recreation gamblers. I have no problem with that. They are regulars at the bingo palaces. They play in the Legions. They play in the hotels and bars. I am not criticizing that at all. I am realistic. Gambling has always been part of the province, whether you like it or not. I think it always will be there. But I think where we have to start is dealing with the addiction, identifying it.

Second of all, I have always felt that one of the provisions in the Desjardins commission that deserved some consideration is that of having a referendum at the local level on gambling. We do it with alcohol. There are communities in Manitoba that still do not have licensed alcoholic facilities. Steinbach. [interjection] That is right, in southern Manitoba. I think gambling is very much in the same category. I have talked to many people who say they do not want it in their community, and I know people who say, well, it may be available in the surrounding community, but you know, it still is having much more of a direct impact, particularly VLTs, because VLTs are very accessible in bars and restaurants.

The most obvious example of that is probably the Quest Inn. I do not want to criticize the Quest Inn per se, it is a legal facility, but they have a lounge in a hotel that is also a seniors residence, and I have had calls from family members, and we have had calls from family members who are concerned about that, Madam Speaker, so I think there should be some community choice.

The third point is, I really question the promotion that goes on, not just the overall promotion, but some of the internal promotion. It is good marketing, it is good business, I understand, to have what are called seniors days. I know my parents have gone to those seniors days, but even they have sort of questioned whether that is really what the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation people should be doing, encouraging, targeting marketing efforts towards a particular demographic group, and I will tell you, there are many seniors who are having problems with gambling.

I have talked to people who are very concerned about people in their own families. You have to recall too that seniors, being retired, are in a position of having that spare time, the leisure time, and it is very easy to fall into the habit of going to the casinos or to the bars or restaurants or Legions, and there is a tremendous amount of concern with that. That is why this resolution references not targeting specific demographic groups. I do not think there should be seniors events. I do not think there should be any type of promotional events, quite frankly, for gambling within this province.

* (1720)

Now, we can put aside perhaps the question of tourism, there may be a different argument there, but I do not think you promote it. I have always felt that, Madam Speaker, when it comes to gambling, when it comes to alcohol, when it comes to any of those parts of our society that can be recreational in one sense but can be social vices in another, there is a balance there. I am not saying we should necessarily have prohibition, but I do not believe you promote alcohol and I do not believe you promote gambling. I believe there are enough people out there who are going to gamble without your making it a subject of these marketing events that we see. Well, that is what I am looking for and what we are looking for in the New Democratic Party, some balance.

I do not think anyone is saying that gambling is going to be eliminated in the province. If you were to make it illegal tomorrow, it would still continue. I mean, the Irish Sweepstakes, I think, a few years ago was the substitute for the fact there were no lotteries. You know, if you do not have governments doing it, you have shadier elements of society running gambling facilities. I do not believe prohibition works: it does not work on alcohol, and it does not work for gambling. But I still think there is a social balance. That is what this resolution is all about.

I wish in a way we had more time to discuss this. I have much more I could put on the record, but I did want to allow for other members to speak on this, because I think it is one of those types of issues that should not necessarily always be a partisan issue. I would hope that it would be treated as alcohol was in the old days, a few years ago.

We used to have all-party committees on these types of issues. I think perhaps now with the establishment of the commission, which I do not think is strong enough in its power, I think it may be something that we could still do as a legislative committee, because I would like to talk to Manitobans as an all-party commission on the social impact of gambling, and perhaps you know--and I know, with members opposite, I think, there is probably some common ground there.

What we are looking for is more of a balance. I have mentioned some suggestions, positive suggestions. I have many more I am more than prepared to make both as a concerned Manitoban and as gambling critic, Lotteries critic for the New Democratic Party. I look forward to--I believe the member for River Heights has some comments as well. I am hoping, as well, that this is the kind of resolution that we can return to, if not this session in other sessions, because I think this is probably one of the areas where we can move into all-party discussion and perhaps some positive suggestions for Manitoba. Thank you.

Mr. Mike Radcliffe (River Heights): Good afternoon, Madam Speaker. I laud the overall general direction of my honourable colleague across the floor, but one must be very careful adopting such a broad-stroke resolution as he has advanced. In fact, my colleagues on this side of the House would be very careful with compulsive behaviour of any sort. We do not condone compulsive behaviour, and we are very aware. We want to put on the record that we are aware of the social ills that devolve from compulsive behaviour.

In fact, I can relate to this Chamber and my colleagues here that I have a friend of my mother's, a woman of 86 years of age. She has been compulsively attracted to Columbia House publishing sweepstakes. In fact she lives for the mail delivery every day. This is a senior. She lives in a block where she receives subsidized rent. She has all the material comforts of life. In fact, the problem is that this woman is bored, and she looks to the Columbia House publishing sweepstakes for a little bit of excitement and spice in her life. The problem is that in all these situations one must not overlook the human element.

An Honourable Member: Is this your wife?

Mr. Radcliffe: Not my wife. I can advise this House that this government has recognized the fact that there are ills that arise from compulsive behaviour and from the gambling in this province. [interjection] My honourable colleague from across the way is perhaps betraying some of the historical roots of his association and his party, because they were proponents originally, I would suggest, with the greatest of respect, of the prohibition era. We all saw the ills and the ineffectualness of the prohibition.

In fact we know that some of the largest whiskey houses of our nation had their roots in Manitoba from the prohibition era. Therefore, if we were to adopt this resolution of my honourable colleague across the way, we would fall into the easy road of which has already been repeated once in this province. In fact, being a modest student of history, I am sure all my honourable colleagues know that there is that old adage that, if you do not understand and know history, you are cursed and bound to repeat it. Therefore, having the benefit of some grasp of a modicum of history in our province--

An Honourable Member: Modicum?

Mr. Radcliffe: Modicum. A small amount.

I would suggest that we would be sliding down the slippery slope to repeat some of the mistakes that we have already made, probably in this very Chamber.

An Honourable Member: Is Michael speaking in favour of this?

Mr. Radcliffe: I am with my friends.

I would suggest, with the greatest respect, I would like to point out and put on the record that at the present time the Manitoba government has shown that it is responsive. The Filmon government is responsive and responsible in its approach to problem gambling, and at the present time, the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, the AFM, receives nearly a million dollars annually. This money is spent to fund 17 staff positions and to deliver extensive services in the areas of treatment, of education, of prevention and training.

These programs and services are offered by the AFM, and they are designed and funded to meet the identified needs of people who find themselves in this unfortunate situation. I do not mean to deprecate or diminish in one iota the social ills that this compulsive behaviour raises, but what we must address is the real ill and not cast the broad net and catch a lot of unintentioned victims by our thoughtless legislation. In fact, this government, I would suggest with the greatest of respect to my honourable colleagues across the way, a hallmark is the careful thought and care that goes into all our legislation.

In fact, I heard somebody across the way indicate that they are in favour of our MTS legislation, and I would laud the honourable member for his--

An Honourable Member: Definitely in favour.

Mr. Radcliffe: In fact, Madam Speaker, I believe that my learned friend did indicate that gambling is with us and is going to be with us. Prior to the opening of the casinos in Manitoba and the bingo parlours, we saw busload after busload of Manitobans taking our good Canadian dollars south of the border.

An Honourable Member: And they still are.

Mr. Radcliffe: And they still are, as the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) has indicated. I would suggest that he may have some personal knowledge of this phenomenon. What we have done in Manitoba is be aware of the advertising issue which my honourable colleague has raised.

I am advised that the Manitoba Lotteries Commission has removed lifestyle advertising from the Manitoba marketplace in response to a working group which has been gathered to study this issue. This shows a real sensitivity of this government and this corporation in being aware of people's needs and being sensitive to the people of Manitoba.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) will have eight minutes remaining.

The hour being 5:30 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until Monday next.