Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.
Dealing with the closure of emergency wards at our community hospitals, we have had a number of contrary announcements by the government over the last 18 months.
In July of 1994 the Minister of Health said, I could not dare possibly close any of the emergency wards in our community hospitals at night. I use those wards myself, he said to us.
After the election in October of 1995, the government decided to close five out of the seven hospitals in the evening. They said they had a consensus, and then we found out later they did not. They said it was because of 4 percent volume in terms of emergent cases; then we found out that was not true. Now they are saying they have to reopen four of those hospital emergency wards at night because the holiday season is coming.
I would like to ask the Premier, is it possible for the people of Manitoba to get a Minister of Health who can plan our health care system on the basis of knowing that a holiday season has greater volume? There was no reason to close those emergency wards at our community hospitals at night to begin with in October.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the planning has not been done in isolation. It never has been with this government, unlike the planning done by honourable members opposite when they had an opportunity.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this is the minister of chaos in terms of the Conservative government. He cannot plan 10 weeks ahead. He does not even know whether Christmas is coming or not when he makes his original decision. He is now 10 weeks later planning some reopening.
In light of the fact that the government is saying that this is not our final decision, our full plan--this next full plan, I might add--will be announced early in the new year, said the Minister of Health, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), can he tell us what that full plan is? The Minister of Health told us last week he did not want to open emergency wards and then close them down again in the new year. Does this mean that we have a guarantee that the four out of the five that were announced today will be permanently reopened in our communities in Winnipeg?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition should be aware that the emergency planning team has recommended that there be five sites for emergency services in addition to Children's Hospital. Those five sites would include two tertiary centres and three community hospitals. Because we are during the Christmastime and during a time of transition, for that intermediate time we have chosen to open four community hospital emergency rooms at night, but the configuration in the future will be two and three, and much work needs to be done in the meantime amongst the health care professionals involved in the process.
The honourable member may be interested to know that there is more than just emergency services carried out at our institutions. There are programs like psychiatry, pediatrics, cancer, medicine and critical care, obstetrics, geriatrics, surgery, various support services, diagnostics, and laboratory services.
All of those are programs of their own, and we are trying to get integrated planning throughout the city for each and every one of those programs. Each of those programs will have a planning team like the planning team we have for emergency services.
We appreciate the input these people are making. They are very, very qualified people to do that. They do not run the health system based solely on political considerations like my colleagues opposite would have us do.
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Mr. Doer: The minister, in the last few weeks, has said that he did not want to open or reopen community-based emergency wards at night and then close them again in the new year; we needed a long-term plan.
Today he is again contradicting his own words where he is saying that we are going to reverse ourselves on one of the hospitals in the new year with the anticipated so-called full plan. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), will today's announcement be the full plan in keeping with the minister's own words of last week?
We do not need these decisions to keep the emergency wards open and then close them and then open some and then close some again. We need long-term stability for our communities. We need predictability for our patients and for our citizens. Can we get that from the Premier today? We certainly cannot get it from the Minister of Health.
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, you see, the honourable member has to understand that we are following the recommendations made to us by the Urban Health Planning Emergency Services team. That is exactly what we are doing here.
So the honourable member wants us to close something. Let him tell us which one he wants us to close now or let the public know which one. He is asking that we close one; let him tell us which one that he would have us close. He now seems to agree that that is the thing to do.
Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) my questions because the Minister of Health has been wrong so often that perhaps the Premier can try to straighten out the situation.
Madam Speaker, can the Premier explain to members of this House and the public of Manitoba which of the many secret committees this minister has that made the recommendations that have the temporary reopening that was announced today, because he has not been listening and does not have recommendations from his Emergency Task Force committee? It is obviously the urban planning committee they set up, the executive committees that are making all of the executive recommendations about the future of health care in this province.
Can the Premier tell us which committee made the decision, and will he table the results of those recommendations and the data to back it up?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Kildonan attended the forum last week facilitated by KPMG, which discussed some of these matters. He knows, unless he has forgotten already what he learned when he attended that forum, that we had an Emergency Services Task Force composed of all kinds of people providing all kinds of input.
Madam Speaker, not all of the input was the same. There were competing views put forward. The honourable member should not be surprised by that, so that the emergency planning team had the benefit of the input of all of the players of the Emergency Services Task Force before they made their recommendations to me.
Is the honourable member now picking and choosing which advice he wants to take from which parties at the Emergency Services Task Force table? If he is doing that, let him say which advice he wants to reject.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my supplementary to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).
Can the Premier, who did not answer the question, or the Minister of Health, who also did not answer the question, perhaps inform this House and guarantee that the two hospitals whose emergency wards are going to be closed in the new year will not be permanently closed or converted to some other type of facility or function, which are the rumours that are rampant in the health care community, and which, at those seminars I attended, everyone concluded was in fact going to happen, Madam Speaker?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the role of hospitals that in future will not include in their role emergency services is very much the subject of discussion with the people at those hospitals, with the care providers, with the care providers at all of the hospitals in the city. I keep repeating for the honourable member because even when he goes to forums and takes part in discussions, he comes away as if he had not heard anything that went on there.
Madam Speaker, we are talking about integration of services so we can provide better services for Manitobans right here in the city, so that we can use the dollars that we have very effectively and so that we can use the talent, the training, the expertise that exists in our city to the best possible advantage for the people who need health care services in the city.
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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).
Can the Premier explain to this House why they are proceeding to close two hospital emergency wards at night on the recommendations of a minister who first said he had consensus and was proved to be wrong, on a recommendation of a minister who said he closed them in the first place because they were 4 percent utilized and he was found to be wrong--they are 11 percent utilized--on a minister who said it was closed to save money and then said it was not going to save money and now it may cost us more, on the recommendations of a minister who did not even listen to the recommendations of the Emergency Task Force Report?
Can he explain why, on the basis of not only that information and the incompetence of that minister, he is choosing to close two emergency wards in the city of Winnipeg when it is known by all health care providers those wards are needed?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable member thinks he knows more in the area of health care delivery than Jack Litvack, the CEO of one of our tertiary hospitals, he knows more than Dr. Neil Swirsky who is the medical head of our Health Emergency Services Planning Team. The honourable member for Kildonan knows more than Betty Lou Roch, the nurse clinician manager member of this team. The honourable member knows more than all of these professionals who provide advice.
Well, that is astounding, Madam Speaker. I really have to rethink everything I have ever done now because I have not always followed the advice of the honourable member.
Michael Bessey
Tuition Fees/Cash Advance
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, according to the federal employee guideline rules, Section 28(1), public officeholders should not allow themselves to be influenced in the pursuit of their official duties and responsibilities by plans or offers for outside employment; Section 28(2), a public officeholder shall disclose in writing to the ethics counsellor all firm offers of outside employment that could place the public officeholder in a position of conflict; 28(3), a public officeholder who accepts an offer of outside employment shall immediately disclose in writing to the ethics counsellor, and so on. Saskatchewan, a public employee should not let himself be influenced.
Madam Speaker, does the Premier still maintain that there is nothing wrong with Mr. Bessey negotiating a material benefit with a senior officer of a corporation when both Mr. Bessey and that officer sat on the Faneuil ISG board and negotiated other arrangements with MTS and other companies?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I note that the member opposite is quoting all sorts of legislative sources other than the Province of Manitoba, which, of course, were developed by the government of which he now bears the political stripe.
Madam Speaker, given the fact that serious allegations have been made by the members opposite with respect to the relationships and indeed the actions of a former public servant, I asked the Clerk of the Executive Council to convene a meeting with the Legislative Counsel and the Deputy Minister of Justice, and through that process, have requested that a review be made of all of the allegations and all of the information provided both in media reports and by members of the opposition.
Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, in the light of the Premier's answer, can he then confirm that the total value of Mr. Bessey's arrangements this year with Stanton Europa are approximately $80,000?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Sale: Can the Premier tell the House whether the arrangements made by Mr. Bessey are for one year or for two years or for three years or for more years?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have no knowledge of that.
Community Colleges
Funding
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Education.
During the last election, the Filmon team, clearly knowing of the reductions in the federal transfer payments, promised the people of Manitoba that they would expand the community colleges of Manitoba. Seven months later Red River Community College, in anticipation of a $338,000 deficit, has fired an additional nine staff over and above the 27 they let go this summer, suspended courses and cut class sections.
I want to ask the Minister of Education to tell the House how she intends to keep those promises she made in full knowledge of the federal withdrawal.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the member knows, or ought to know, that we have in our last go-around increased funding to community colleges. It is unfortunate that the federal government withdrew its direct purchase of seats in some instances.
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The colleges have gone to self-governance. I think they have done a very good job, notwithstanding the current realities, of offering programming to their students, of bringing in new and innovative programs. I look at some of the things going on with distance education. I look at some of the work the colleges are doing in terms of interacting with universities, applaud them for their initiatives in that regard and for the continued high quality of service they give their students.
College boards of governors make decisions independently, as do boards of governors at universities, as do other self-governing bodies. Their task is not an easy one, but I do believe that this commitment by this government in terms of our own provincial funding to colleges compares very well with other enterprises across the country. Indeed, the increase we put into them last year for new initiatives, I believe, is very much appreciated by them.
Fee Policy
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, the end result is there are fewer students, there are fewer classes and fewer opportunities for young people, and those election promises meant nothing.
Madam Speaker, I want the minister to tell us whether the 10 percent increase in fees for Continuing and Distance Education proposed at Red River College--and a 10 percent increase in fees in one year is a huge amount for any student--will she tell us, is this what she had in mind when she promised, in that same election, to establish a provincial fee policy?
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I note the member made a postamble and a preamble, but did this time at least follow it with a question, which she has not always done.
I would like to say that the member should go out and take a good look at what is happening in the colleges to understand the new and innovative technologies that are being offered, the interaction, not just with colleges, not just with universities, but also with industry. Take a look at what is happening with the connections with the aerospace industry, for example, in terms of opportunities for students at the colleges, understand that our rates in Manitoba compare extremely well with rates of colleges in other parts of the country.
Madam Speaker, the tuition fee policy that we will be examining has not yet begun. She knows that we are looking at a tuition fee policy for post-secondary institutions to be delivered by the council on post-secondary education which has very close understandings of what is going on in post-secondary institutions. She knows that; yet, she speaks as if a fait accompli has occurred for a review that has not yet begun. I think that is a bit misleading, and she should be careful to be clear and accurate in her questions.
Desjardins Report
Release
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the First Minister.
Over the years the government has benefited greatly through revenue created from gambling and has constantly downplayed the negative social costs of that activity which this government can take sole credit for.
We understand, through talking to the commission's office, at the very latest by this Friday this government will have the Desjardins report on gambling.
My question to the Premier is, in the name of open government, something that this Premier often talks about, will he make a commitment to make that report public immediately upon receiving it?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I do not have any confirmation of the information that the member is giving. The Desjardins commission is an independent body and will operate on the timetable that they have set for themselves in order to do the job they have been engaged to do.
We have indicated that report will be made public, and the process that we normally follow is that the minister is able to receive the report and have enough time to be able to review it so that he can make intelligent commentary on it and then release it to the public.
Standing Committee Review
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Can the Premier allow for a standing committee to meet in the month of January in which members of the opposition will have an opportunity to question this government on its gambling policy, given that over the last number of years standing committees only dealt with Lotteries for maybe four or five hours in total duration over the last three, three and a half years?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, those arrangements are made between House leaders. I would expect that the House leaders will want to schedule an opportunity for that committee to sit so that the member can ask his questions.
Mr. Lamoureux: Would the Premier then be in favour of seeing the standing committee meet while we have adjourned for the winter, coming back no doubt sometime in the month of March? Will he make the commitment to have the standing committee meet to have this public debate?
Mr. Filmon: The member knows that I cannot make that commitment. That is the subject of negotiations between the House leaders, and that is the way the process should be.
Crime Prevention
Government Strategy
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is for the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).
With the highest increase in violent crime of all the provinces since 1989, this is the government that has refused to proclaim The Crime Prevention Foundation Act; has lots of phantom committees on crime like the Crime Prevention Council--it has never existed; promotes garage sales for youth programs and has a summit report on youth crime which has about two years of dust on it as of last week--not as much dust on it as the Pedlar report recommendations and the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report--while it cuts programs at friendship centres.
My question to the First Minister is, how has he the gall to write in last week's throne speech such nonsense as: The government has, and I quote, "an already impressive record of crime prevention"?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to reiterate what was in the throne speech last week in terms of this government's record in the area of crime prevention. Let me start in the area of policing. Money for 40 more police officers in the city of Winnipeg; more money to the RCMP; work with communities in terms of work where citizens can participate; continued work in terms of youth justice committees in the effort to make sure that young people do not return to a life of crime.
The list is very long. The member across the way has never supported any of the programs but the citizens of Manitoba certainly have.
Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, since the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) will not now stand by his puffery, care to explain why these gestures have failed to impress the national victims' rights organization, CAVEAT, which has reviewed the crime prevention efforts of all Canadian governments and issued a report card which concludes there is little evidence of a commitment to crime prevention in Manitoba, and instead of getting an A or a B like some governments, this government got an F?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the member is quite wrong. This province did not get an F. However, we did get a D, and I will tell you why.
The reason this province got a D is because we would not support Bill C-68, compulsory federal gun registration.
CAVEAT made it very clear. The member is wrong. He does not ever stick to a single position; he talks out of both sides.
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Point of Order
Mr. Mackintosh: I am sure the member does not want to mislead this House or suggest that I am misleading this House. This government got a D-minus overall, and I will table the report card on crime prevention which is what I am talking about where it got a big fat F.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, to quickly complete her response.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to table also CAVEAT reality check, and the efforts that--they said, contact your M.P. today; I would like to register with CAVEAT my support of Bill C-68, the firearms act.
The provinces that got a D were Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario, provinces which did not support Bill C-68.
An Honourable Member: What did Saskatchewan get, Rosemary?
Mrs. Vodrey: My understanding was that they did not support it either.
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. Before recognizing the honourable member for St. Johns, I want to remind all honourable members in this Chamber that today we have in our public gallery a number of high school students who I am certain do not appreciate rudeness, and I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. There is no room for shouting in this Chamber.
Point of Order
Mr. Mackintosh: I want the record straight, Madam Speaker, and I am sure the Justice minister will do so. Just to confirm that she is misleading this House when she says that the provinces opposed to the gun control bill got Ds, Saskatchewan got a C-minus.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. May I please ask the honourable member for St. Johns for co-operation in standing on points of order. Now this is the second point of order he has been recognized for, knowing full well that is not a point of order. It is clearly a dispute with the minister over producing facts.
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Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, would the Justice minister then, who tactically, I note, never mentioned her so-called Crime Prevention Fund, confirm that she has at least impressed her own constituency, which last year received over one-quarter of all the funds expended by that hush fund?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the Crime Prevention Fund is available to provide some funds, not ongoing funds, to communities who have a project which qualifies according to some criterion. So that is adhered to.
This government, Madam Speaker, I believe, has continued to follow our positions, our positions as stated. This government did not support gun registration. The other side we are not sure. This side believes in consequences for young offenders. The member for St. Johns, in November, ended up saying all they need is love. We simply do not know where he stands.
Department of Natural Resources
Staff Biologist Dismissal
Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission.
Yesterday in this House, the Minister of Natural Resources told us that Dan Soprovich was fired for, quote, huddling with members on this side of the House during the Clean Environment Commission hearings.
Is it your government's policy to terminate civil servants' contracts on the basis of who they sit with at public hearings?
Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): My learned friend knows that is an improper question to ask at this time when this matter is in fact being considered, that the employee may in fact have rights of appeal. I am certainly not going to interfere in an independent government agency.
Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, can the minister responsible for the Civil Service tell the House whether there is a new government policy in place that makes talking with members of this Legislature a dismissable offence?
Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I have answered that question already.
Mr. Struthers: He did not answer the question, Madam Speaker.
Could this minister respectively inform his colleague the honourable Minister for Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) as to what does and does not constitute a dismissable offence in this government?
Mr. Toews: My honourable colleague may in fact think it is improper to interfere with those kinds of decisions. I do not. I will let the employee take any steps that he is legally entitled to and let an independent board make those decisions.
Copyright
Canadian Distribution Rights
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's rich cultural life is clear in our small presses, for example, Turnstone, Pemmican, Watson and Dwyer, Blizzard, and the excellence of our writers: Governor General's Award winners and nominees like Patrick Friesen, Margaret Sweatman and Di Brandt, just to name a few. But the arrival of monolithic booksellers like Barnes and Noble and Borders could obliterate the presses and the opportunity for young, talented writers to publish.
My questions are for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Has the minister pushed the federal government to reform Canadian copyright to include Canadian distribution rights and therefore provide a measure of protection to Canadian publishers and writers, particularly of course Manitoba publishers and writers?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, indeed, our government's support for the cultural community is well known within the province and across the country, that as other levels of government both municipal and federal reduce their funds for cultural and artistic events, we have maintained our funding through the Manitoba Arts Council and through our department to encourage writers, artists of all sorts, to practise their trade and profession here in Manitoba.
On the issue of discussions with the federal government, we were about to have a ministerial meeting, the first one in some three years, early this month in Saskatoon. That meeting has been rescheduled for January, at which time we will have an opportunity to talk to the federal government about some of their policies involving the arts.
Bookstores
Canadian Purchasing Policy
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Will the minister then negotiate with Ottawa to encourage incoming U.S. giants to exact commitments that they buy and must buy all their Canadian and agency books from Canadian sources?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I would say to my honourable friend that we have been in discussions in a number of departments and within my department with the federal government on a number of issues. We have not at this point had a lot of success in dealing with the federal government in terms of changing some of their policies and certainly affecting any of their funding decisions.
Publishing Industry
Employment Protection
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Will the minister table in this House his plan to protect Manitoba writers and presses and so protect the economic spin-offs which are somewhere in excess of $2 million and also protect the 31 jobs in the publishing industry?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, our commitment to that industry has been maintained through a number of budgets. As I have indicated earlier in my first answer that whereas other levels of government are withdrawing their funding, reducing their funding, the best support that we can give them is to maintain our funding and I am optimistic that we will be able to do that in the upcoming budget.
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Real Estate Industry
Fraud Investigation
Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.
Madam Speaker, dozens of first-time homeowners own overpriced homes that they cannot sell, thanks to the lack of action of this government. This government has known about this since it started; it has done nothing while this ring is operating to this day.
Will the minister finally take responsibility for this mess and tell the young, first-time home buyers who are watching this Question Period what you plan to do about it?
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, subsequent to the member for Elmwood raising this issue, I had a discussion yesterday with the chair of the Manitoba Securities Commission. She told me that in fact it was the Manitoba Securities Commission investigator who uncovered this whole issue. They were the ones who blew the whistle on it. They were the ones who caused action to be taken and is now under investigation by the RCMP.
Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the minister whether this government has made any recommendations to the Law Society, the real estate association and the CMHC over this ring that has been operating under his nose for the last two or three years.
Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, I think we will wait for the RCMP to conduct their investigation to determine what appropriate actions are necessary after that investigation is completed.
Education System
Transportation Policy
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Education.
Madam Speaker, this government has made a number of changes to the funding policy for school buses in the province, including eliminating a 22-year-old clause in the agreement to ensure there is funding for school buses in outlying areas in the city for Grades 7 to 12 students. This would mean that they are not going to have to rely on public transit for school buses.
This has been bad enough, but now the City of Winnipeg is going to eliminate some 36 Transit routes in the city. Six of those are in the constituency of Radisson. This is going to mean that many students and others will have no way of getting to school or to work. I want to table a copy of the various Transit routes that are being eliminated.
I want to ask the Minister of Education if she has had any discussions with school divisions, trustees or staff with the school divisions or the City of Winnipeg to address this problem so that students attending schools in the city of Winnipeg will have transportation. Currently, there is no school bus or public transit.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the member knows or the member ought to know that the Department of Education funds transportation for students in Manitoba if they live in rural Manitoba over a certain distance, if they live in the city of Winnipeg over a certain distance, 1.6 kilometres or one mile.
If the school division in Winnipeg decides that they wish to transport their students, the school division can make decisions on routes. The school division can make decisions as to whether to contract out busing, to acquire their own buses. There are criteria for buses in terms of the kind of bus that must be purchased for students' safety, and school divisions are elected and are accountable to make decisions with the funding provided by the government of Manitoba for transportation purposes.
We do not tell school divisions what routes to choose or whether indeed to bus certain grades of students. That decision is for them to make.
Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, given that this government has contributed to this problem by eliminating the funding for suburban school divisions for Grades 7 to 12 students, I want to ask the minister, what is her approach going to be to solve this problem so that students throughout the city are going to have access either to public transit or to school bus transportation? Currently, there is a problem--
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, it is true that some divisions in the city of Winnipeg had been transporting students in the high school arena, in the junior high arena. Other divisions in the city of Winnipeg have never transported students after they get to the high school or secondary level. That choice is the school divisions' to make. They make those decisions within their available funds.
Funding is provided for students up to a certain grade level within the city if the school division has a transportation policy, Madam Speaker. Again I reiterate, that decision is made by school divisions and some urban divisions have never bussed students in those upper grades.
Hog Industry
Marketing System
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture is taking action that is going to hurt the pork industry in this province. In fact, he himself has stated that 85 percent of the producers in this province are against moving to dual marketing, but he is going to move to it anyway. He has set up a group of people whom he knew in their ideology would support the vertical integration and big business in the pork industry.
Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister why so few producers were contacted in the study. In the spirit of disclosure, will he list the people who were contacted, the independent producers who were contacted and whose opinions are reflected in this study?
Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I want to make it clear to the honourable member for Swan River that there is only one industry, and that is the pork industry and it is inclusive. It includes packers, includes producers, it includes the feed mill companies that provide the feed. It is one industry that we are concerned about making sure that it is vibrant, that it is healthy and contributing to the economy of this province.
The instructions to the three-person commission that made that extensive report, not just for me but for the Economic Development Board of Cabinet, the instructions were that the very first party that they sit down to meet with was with the members of Manitoba Pork, with their executive and with their staff. I can tell you, Madam Speaker, through you to the member for Swan River, that they met on numerous occasions with Manitoba Pork, along with many other stakeholders in the industry in arriving at the conclusions, the recommendations in that report.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since the minister bases his decisions on this report, I want to ask him why it is only the one recommendation--when there are many, many recommendations in this report, why he has just taken the one to move toward dual marketing when there are many people, members, letters coming in from across the province saying that producers have not been consulted and this is not good for the independent producers. It is not good for the pork industry in Manitoba. Why is he only taking that one recommendation and acting on it?
Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, you know how I like to pay close attention to your rulings and the rules and traditions of this House. This is a subject matter that would be most legitimate in the debates on my Estimates, or on any issues, but let me tell her just one example.
The report also indicates that some $300 million to $400 million will be required in new capital on the farms. One way of securing that, of ensuring that the producers can get the millions of dollars needed for the expansion we talked about in that report, is to have stability in the marketing of the hogs. The report refers to that as one way of achieving that, is through long-term contractual arrangements to secure the kind of funding that is necessary. That is one of the recommendations, also one of the reasons why the other recommendation with respect to a more flexible marketing system was accepted by this government.
Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.
Speaker's Ruling
Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.
I am ruling on a point of order raised by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) on November 1, as well as a matter of privilege raised by him on November 2 concerning the same matter. The issue concerns words the honourable member for St. Johns stated he heard the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) use.
Having reviewed the printed Hansard and the audio tape, I find that neither attribute any words to the minister in question. Because there is nothing recorded nor did I hear any words uttered by the minister, there is no basis for a point of order nor for a matter of privilege.
Also, Beauchesne Citation 485.(1) and the appendices to our rule book are explicit on the point that unparliamentary words must be brought to the attention of the House as a point of order and not as a question of privilege.
I would also like to say to the House that if something has been taken under advisement, it is not good procedural practice to raise it again in another mode but to wait until a ruling is brought in on the matter and then perhaps to take further action.