Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.
This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time. We are on Resolution 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Chair, I would like to give the minister a chance to respond to the question that I had at the end of the day yesterday. He did not get a chance to answer my question, so I would like to have him do that.
My question was the type of precautions he would take against poaching once the elk ranching has been set up.
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): First of all, talking about poaching, I want to elaborate a little bit even beyond that. I do not know whether the member is aware, but ever since we brought in the new fine system and new legislation related to heavier fines and confiscation, our poaching has basically dropped off by over 60 percent. I am talking generally hunting poaching.
In terms of the potential of poaching related to elk ranching, I can assure the member that that has been looked at very carefully, and we feel that the way the system is being contemplated and being done in Saskatchewan and Alberta, every animal will have to be registered with the Department of Agriculture. They will have to be tattooed, registered and no animal movement can take place, so if somebody, even if they wanted to catch an animal in the wild, once the program comes in place, every animal is going to be registered, tattooed, recorded, so nobody can move an animal without the permission and authorization of the Department of Agriculture.
That is the scope of where we are going at this time, so if people thought they would be able to get out there and catch some animals in the wild and then sell them, it is not going to happen. There is not going to be any room for that, and the only animals that will be allowed to the trade are those that have gone through the process.
Mr. Struthers: Mr. Chair, that was the only question of yesterday that I had that was left unanswered. I basically do not have any more questions. I would have liked to have wrapped it up yesterday, but we got a little delayed at the end. I am willing to pass this line, and I have no more questions on the rest of the lines, so I would be willing to pass the whole book.
Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass?
Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I have information here that I was going to make available both to the member for St. Boniface--[interjection] Did you already pass--[interjection] Oh, I see, okay. They already have the information related to Parks. Okay, fine. Let us proceed.
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairperson, my question is going to be very brief. The minister had mentioned before that he was going to give us this information, and I thank him for the information.
My question is in regard to those permits, the parks permits. The seniors who have called me, it is in regards to the ones who own cottages, and they pay taxes already, and they are given a permit, $20, I believe, and they have to buy a second or third one for the family, so that they can travel back and forth. They are prepared to pay another $5 for a second or a third permit. They were wondering why they have to pay, let us say, $60 to get three permits. Would the minister consider even having this sort of permit for the cottage owners since they pay already, it is $700 to $800 per cottage.
Mr. Driedger: Yes, the member is correct that we have implemented this year, where seniors used to have a free pass into the provincial parks, we did make changes. They are probably aware of the rate structures of some of the changes that have taken place. We have also asked the seniors--last year the provincial park pass was $17. We have raised that to $20 this year, and seniors are not exempt. I really do not think that it does create a hardship for a senior to buy a $20 pass to utilize all the provincial parks that we have. It is a perception thing more than anything else.
Related to the second pass for $5, we have looked at this. We have some difficulty with that, and that is why I have an example here. These are the detachable ones that you put around your windshield, you know, the mirror out there, so you can move them from one vehicle to the next. We run into difficulty if we start handing out two or three passes to the family, and, because they are detachable, everybody uses them as they best can. So, within the family, they can share it from one vehicle to the next, but, if they want to use two vehicles to get into the park, they have to have two passes.
That is the way we have established it for now. Depending on the reaction we get and what happens, we will review it again for next year, but these were major changes that we made this year as you can see on this fee structure that I gave to both members. By and large, we are going to be looking at it. There is some justification in terms of people being concerned.
Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass?--pass.
12.1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (2) Other Expenditures $83,800--pass.
1.(c) Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employees $621,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $337,800--pass.
1.(d) Financial Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,206,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $238,100--pass.
1.(e) Human Resource Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $830,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $148,900--pass.
1.(f) Resource Information Systems (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $630,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $58,400--pass.
12.2. Regional Operations (a) Headquarters Operations (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,196,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,053,700--pass; (3) Problem Wildlife Control $272,000--pass.
2.(b) Northwest Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,930,000--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $633,400--pass.
2.(c) Northeast Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,958,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $869,300--pass.
2.(d) Central Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,167,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,526,400--pass.
2.(e) Eastern Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,068,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $827,500--pass.
2.(f) Western Region (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $4,105,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,444,400--pass.
2.(g) Fire Program (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,710,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $7,204,500--pass.
Resolution 12.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to her Majesty a sum not exceeding $32,968,500 for Natural Resources, Regional Operations, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.
12.3. Resource Programs (a) Water Resources (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $418,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $391,900--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $25,000--pass.
3.(a)(2) Water Licensing and Approvals (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $667,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $32,400--pass.
3.(a)(3) Waterway Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $617,400--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $109,000--pass; (c) Waterway Maintenance $3,817,500--pass.
3.(a)(4) Surface Water Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $893,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $381,400--pass; (c) Canada-Manitoba Agreement for Water Quantity Surveys $286,900--pass.
3.(a)(5) Groundwater Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $609,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $163,900--pass.
3.(a)(6) Computer Graphics (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $434,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $25,000--pass.
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3.(b) Parks and Natural Areas (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $385,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $341,200--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $133,500--pass.
3.(b)(2) Planning and Development (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $646,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $198,400--pass.
3.(b)(3) Park Districts (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $402,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $51,600--pass.
3.(b)(4) Park Operations and Maintenance (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $9,122,800--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $3,336,100--pass.
3.(b)(5) Support Services (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $177,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $50,300--pass.
3.(c) Policy Co-ordination (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $911,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $231,700--pass; (3) Grant Assistance $10,200--pass.
3.(d) Forestry (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $333,400--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $311,700--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $475,800--pass.
3.(d)(2) Forest Resource Surveys (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $715,700--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $137,700--pass.
3.(d)(3) Forest Landscape Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $804,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $898,000--pass.
3.(d)(4) Forest Economics and Marketing (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $477,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $31,500--pass.
3.(d)(5) Forest Renewal $4,282,600--pass.
3.(e) Fisheries (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $198,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $174,200--pass.
3.(e)(2) Fish Culture (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $596,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $300,600--pass.
3.(e)(3) Fisheries Habitat Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $325,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $70,600--pass.
3.(e)(4) Sport and Commercial Fishing Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $453,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $80,500--pass.
3.(e)(5) Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance $250,000--pass.
3.(e)(6) Fisheries Enhancement Initiative $350,000--pass.
3.(f) Wildlife (1) Administration (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $388,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $306,100--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $157,000--pass.
3.(f)(2) Game and Fur Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $482,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $214,000--pass; (c) Grant Assistance $89,900--pass.
3.(f)(3) Habitat and Land Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $580,400--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $162,600--pass; (c) Canada-Manitoba Agreement on Agricultural Sustainability $516,000--pass.
3.(f)(4) Nongame and Endangered Species Management (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $394,600--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $95,200--pass.
3.(f)(5) Canada-Manitoba Waterfowl Damage Prevention Agreement $331,500--pass.
3.(g) Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit $237,100--pass; 3.(h) Habitat Enhancement Fund $50,000--pass; 3.(j) Conservation Data Centre $50,000--pass; 3.(k) Snowmobile Network Opportunities Fund $175,000--pass; 3.(m) Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund $432,100--pass.
Resolution 12.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $40,801,500 for Natural Resources, Resource Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.
12.4. Land Information Centre (a) Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $665,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $510,200--pass.
4.(b) Crown Lands Operations (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $391,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,088,200--pass.
4.(c) Crown Lands Registry (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $224,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $137,700--pass.
4.(d) Survey Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,381,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $473,900--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1,455,300).
4.(e) Remote Sensing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $593,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $123,300--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($23,700).
4.(f) Distribution Centre (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $351,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $267,900--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($95,000).
4.(g) Land Information Systems (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $469,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $609,500--pass.
Resolution 12.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,714,200 for Natural Resources, Land Information Centre, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.
12.5. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Equipment and Infrastructure $535,600--pass; 5.(b) Water Projects $2,424,400--pass; 5.(c) Park Facilities $3,227.300--pass.
Resolution 12.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,187,300 for Natural Resources, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.
Mr. Chairperson: The last item to be considered for the Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources is item 1.(a) Minister's Salary. At this point we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item.
Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Just a few questions to the minister. As the minister is aware, there was a report drafted up, made up, the Symbion report, on the fishing industry in Manitoba, commercial fishing industry. The minister provided me with a copy of a letter. First, can the minister tell me whether the letter has been distributed to all the organizations as he had indicated earlier that he would do so?
Mr. Driedger: The letter has gone out to every single commercial fisherman around Lake Winnipeg--not to organizations, but to every individual fisherman and organization.
Mr. Clif Evans: I am wondering if the minister is aware--or his department, I am sure, is aware and has been made him aware--of the problem with spawn in Riverton over the past couple of weeks. There is a group of fisherman there who have organized and have a spawning area there designated. Over the past couple of weeks, they have been collecting spawn, and with my own investigation of it or looking into it, I was informed that the spawn were dying by the hundreds of thousands because of the water.
They were collecting, of course, and using river water, the Icelandic River water, plus well water, and the eggs have died, hundreds of thousands of eggs. I am wondering if the minister and his department--what are they going to do about this?
Mr. Driedger: I can only assume that the member is talking about people who are basically collecting spawn for fish hatcheries, and the member is well aware that we have established five new fish hatcheries throughout the province in the last two years alone and that I very strongly have promoted the expansion and continuation of having more new fish hatcheries established.
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I will take and get details back to the member by this afternoon, but normally the people that do collect the spawn, that catch the fish and take the spawn or the roe, whatever we call it, are very qualified in doing this. I am surprised, I was not aware, as the member talked about, that the eggs are basically not fertile eggs or that they are dying because of the way it is being handled, because normally the people that do collect the roe for the fish hatcheries are very qualified and know what they are doing. I will check this out and find out what is wrong. I am very surprised that they would be using well water when they collected out of a river bed. Maybe the member can give me more details.
Mr. Clif Evans: I did not, at any time, say that the spawn had died because of the handling. In investigating and being there with the fishermen, they are more than qualified, and they are doing their job excellently. It is from the water that they are using that they have taken. After a certain amount of roe had died, they went to using well water, and the spawn, after a couple of days, had survived for a couple more days and from the river water. So they have even stopped using well water.
So it is not the handling. It is the situation that I am asking the minister, has his department or will his department fully investigate the situation in Riverton and have the water checked, tested, and discuss it with the fishermen as to what the problem is?
Mr. Driedger: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I certainly will because the one thing that I feel very, very sensitive about is the spawning areas, the reproduction of our fisheries. To me, that is a very high priority, and I can assure the member within the hour I will have some idea as to exactly what is going on. I was not aware of this, but I will certainly have my staff give me information.
Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that.
Another question regarding fisheries, there has been a proposal put in to his department, to the minister, I understand, re: the Mantagao River. Their proposal there is also to improve the Mantagao River flow for spawn and for pickerel. The group that was organizing or had organized the proposal had indicated to me that they had met with the minister's senior staff and that they felt confident that the minister's department would provide them with the necessary resources.
Can the minister enlighten me on that, and will the Mantagao River project be a go for the fishermen in that area?
Mr. Driedger: The member, if he went through the letter that I gave him a copy of, I make reference in the second last paragraph to the fact that when I met with the various fishermen around Lake Winnipeg, the one thing that they identified in terms of protection of spawning area was the various rivers, that it is not just the Mantagao River, it is the other rivers, as well, and where we have beaver dams and major problems, I have undertaken--and I can maybe read part of the quote: One of the issues identified by fishermen was the problem of beaver dams and debris blocking spawning runs of pickerel. I am also concerned about this issue and will identify funds to assist fishermen to remove blockages in spawning rivers.
So I have instructed staff that we are going to work very closely with the fishermen organizations to do that.
Mr. Clif Evans: Again, is the Mantagao River project a go for this year, the Mantagao?
Mr. Driedger: I do not know exactly, specifically, what the member is referring to, the Mantagao project. If it is a matter of clean out down there, I can assure you that we will do the clean out. For more details of it, I have my fisheries department go throughout the province. I am not aware specifically of the project. I will check it out and make sure we do have a go situation.
Mr. Clif Evans: One final question, and it is a resolution from the Fisher Bay community, and I will read the resolution to the minister, and I am sure his office has received it: Whereas the employment in Fisher Bay community is very limited in the winter months and whereas the community does not have a timber permit, be it resolved the Department of Natural Resources make a timber permit available for 350 cords of pulpwood and some logs to be used for community docks.
I am sort of giving the minister notice on this resolution. I am sure his department will see it, and I would hope that the minister will encourage his department to assist the Fisher Bay community in their resolution, and, hopefully, the minister will get back to me on that, too.
Mr. Driedger: Just to clarify that, I believe the member is asking, the community wants to have the authorization to cut down so many cubic metres of wood to take and build a community dock. Am I correct? Is this what he is making reference to? Mr. Chairman, my staff, we always have provision and allow for a certain amount of allowable cut every year specifically for these kind of projects. All they have to do is, either the member can bring it to my attention directly to my office or through the normal course, whichever way they want, and I can assure him we will look after that.
Mr. Clif Evans: I am sure the minister is aware that over the years, because of storms on Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba, different seasons and problems with nets and floats being lost by the commercial fisherman, the Disaster Relief Board, which is under Government Services, has been providing funds for claims on nets and floats.
I have a letter here from the department, and basically what I am asking is for the minister's support. The letter indicates that there no longer will be funds made available to claims for nets and floats due to certain situations during fishing season that the fishermen incur.
So I am asking the Minister of Natural Resources, is he aware of this, and will he support the fact that this is a very important project or support system for the fisherman? Would he encourage the minister responsible to look into providing the resources and the funds for these fishermen who have made claims for the 1995 fall season and are now, with fishing season around the season, going to be left without the availability of nets and equipment to go onto the lake?
So I am asking the Minister of Natural Resources, responsible for the fisheries, to encourage and support these fishermen and please get back to me on this. It is very important. I have discussed it with the Minister of Government Services, and now I am asking the minister's support for this.
Mr. Driedger: The member is right. The responsibility, under Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board, of course, is with the Minister of Government Services who, I believe, has given a bit of a direction in terms of what qualifies and what does not qualify.
I am going to caution the member. He is asking for my support in terms of pushing my colleague to take and continue to pay out damages for nets lost. We have sort of, over a period of time, set a bit of a precedent, good, bad or otherwise, where every time there was a storm that they applied to Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board and received some money. It is getting to be a grey area as to when is it a disaster and when is it not a disaster.
The occupation itself is a very dicey occupation many times in terms of you are dealing with the environment, you are dealing with water issues out there, you are dealing with ice. It gets to be a point, when is it a disaster and should qualify for assistance? I will dialogue with my colleague, but I am not going to give a whole carte-blanche endorsement to continue to pay out for fisherman on their nets.
There has to be, I think, a more definitive criteria established in terms of, when is it a disaster, and when is there some ownership on the commercial fishermen themselves who are, by and large, very qualified individuals? They know the risks that are involved when they do set their nets. You have certain circumstances when you have a major storm. I think this is when the first time that payout was made. It is not that many years ago the first time that Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board got involved. It never used to be involved with the net damages, and now it is getting to the point, whenever somebody loses a net, then, you know, claims come in. I will continue to dialogue with the Minister of Government Services and see what his approach is to it.
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Mr. Clif Evans: Of course, I asked the minister for support on the situation and the issue for the fishermen. Whether the funds are going to be made available in total or cut off totally is another topic. I am saying to the minister that it is important to these fishermen. Claims have been--I have records here dating back to 1986 on this, and I believe that we should have something in place for these types of losses. A lot of these fishermen right now are depending on these nets for their livelihood and we would rather, of course, see them fishing than not fishing. So I again just request the minister's support on the initiative or on the idea for it.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to put the minister on notice that I would greatly appreciate--even though his department has provided in certain areas a tremendous amount of support for my constituency on problems within the constituency but, on the other hand, there are times that I have brought to the attention of the minister certain problems or issues--I would greatly appreciate a much quicker response and more dialogue with the minister on some of these issues that my constituents feel are important, whether it be a municipality for drainage, whether it be licences, tags for outfitters, land acquisition. I will, of course, provide the minister with a full list of some of the issues that I have brought to his attention.
The constituents come back to me and say, what is happening; why is there not a response? So I am putting the minister on notice that I will be letting him know and I would appreciate if his department would react. Thank you.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 12.1.(a) Minister's Salary $25,200--pass.
Resolution 12.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,570,600 for Natural Resources, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.
This concludes the Department of Natural Resources.
The next department for the committee will be the Department of Justice.
Is it the will of the committee to take a five-minute recess to get prepared? Agreed? [agreed] Five minutes.
The committee recessed at 9:30 a.m.
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