(Concurrent Sections)

RURAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Rural Development. Does the honourable Minister of Rural Development have an opening statement?

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Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Yes, I do.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, ladies and gentlemen and colleagues, it gives me great pleasure today to present the Estimates for the Department of Rural Development. The conclusion of the 1994-95 fiscal year marked the second full year that the department has operated under the new structure with two divisions, the Local Government Services division and the Economic Development Services division. This structure continues to provide services to local government while forming the vanguard of alliances with businesses and entrepreneurs to develop the new rural economy in a changing global marketplace.

For the Economic Development Services division the past year has been a banner year for assisting rural Manitobans creating jobs in a prosperous rural economy. For example, since I last reported to this Chamber during the department's last Estimates review, seven additional Grow Bonds have been issued raising more than $2,600,000 in local investment. These bond issues illustrate how local investors can successfully invest in themselves, in their neighbours and their local entrepreneurs.

More specifically, those Grow Bonds include $700,000 for Gilbert International in Arborg, $600,000 for Crocus Foods in Portage la Prairie, $100,000 for Country Woodshed in Killarney, $216,000 for Operation Fire Fly in Souris, $250,000 for Westman Plastics in Dauphin, $280,000 for RCS Greenhouses in Waskada, $390,000 for Dyck Forages and Grasses in Elie.

With these seven issues of Grow Bonds local investors help create 192 jobs in their own communities. These jobs are a tribute to the success of this program and allows rural Manitobans to invest in their own ingenuity and their initiative. In total, there have been 18 Grow Bond projects that have been approved and have raised more than $7 million in local investment while leveraging over $21 million in capital investment in our rural communities. But, most importantly, about 450 jobs have or will be created for rural Manitoba.

Furthermore, I was encouraged to see several rural-based companies represented in Manitoba Business Magazine's recent ranking of the top 50 fastest growing businesses in the province. Two of these companies, Elias Woodwork Ltd. of Winkler and Farmers Co-op Seed Plant at Rivers were among the top 15. Both of these companies attracted local investment through the Grow Bond program.

The Rural Economic Development Initiative, or as many people refer to it as REDI, and its components continue to be highly valued and sought after for development projects in all of rural Manitoba. The components under the REDI umbrella include the Feasibility Studies Program, the Infrastructure Development Program, the Development Support Program, the Rural Entrepreneur Assistance program, the MBA Student Consulting Program for rural businesses, the Green Team program, the Partners with Youth program and the Rural Junior Achievement program, all providing valuable assistance to rural businesses and entrepreneurs.

To date, Manitoba Rural Development has facilitated total REDI project commitments of $19.9 million, a commitment that has resulted in total capital investment of $160 million and the creation of more than 1,060 jobs for Manitobans.

As an example of REDI success, it was our pleasure to be able to announce that we would be able to extend and expand the funding for the Rural Junior Achievement program. Over the next five years, we will be able to provide $700,000 to deliver this program to rural, elementary and high school students in Manitoba.

Each rural school is eligible to receive funding over five years. The Rural Junior Achievement program has been extended until June 30, 1997, for new schools to register for the program. To be eligible, schools must be registered with Junior Achievement within the first two years of availability or prior to the end of the school year.

As part of the ongoing support toward community development, sewer and water programming has assisted approximately 90 rural community projects, with municipal water infrastructure, or PAMWI, assisting an additional 23 communities.

Support for conservation districts is also integral to the maintenance of conservation areas. In 1994-95, the department was pleased to support the formation of the west Souris River Conservation District, bringing to seven the total number of conservation districts. The Turtle Mountain Conservation District also has been expanded.

The growth of community round tables to its current number of 64 involves 124 rural municipalities and is an essential framework for grassroots participation in rural economic development issues.

Round tables will continue to grow in numbers and begin to address new economic activities as more round tables complete and implement their vision statements. Round tables complement other's ongoing economic initiatives. Their importance for now and for the future is evidenced in their ability to provide communities and municipalities with a process for people from all walks of life to get together to take a realistic look at their community, develop a plan for the future and work together to implement it.

In our Local Government Services Division, there is a milestone being reached as I speak to you here today. The review of The Municipal Act and related statutes is drawing to a close after it started in 1993. Since it was requested by the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and local officials, the review panel has listened to countless rural stakeholders, read scores of written presentations and are now preparing their final report.

This report was a significant undertaking for this department. A discussion document had to be prepared and 2,500 copies were distributed throughout the province. Two rounds of regional consultation meetings were conducted as well as countless hours of reviewing the thoughts and opinions of those who depend on the delivery of services by their local government.

This division is also moving forward on its continuous improvement program that was initiated in June 1994. Clients of the division's Assessment branch are noticing higher quality products, prompter service and new means of achieving cost-efficiency. Integral to continuous improvement initiatives are the perceptions of clients regarding service, which will be used as a yardstick to measure effectiveness.

High quality service is dependent on staff feeling ownership and a sense of responsibility for Rural Development's product and services. As a result, the department wants to improve employee involvement in identifying opportunities for service quality. In addition, the processes by which assessments are produced need to be redesigned so that the assessments, reassessments and inspections can be achieved economically, effectively and on a timely basis.

Another process of change that we have been driving in the department has been re-engineering the way we administer the property taxation and assessment. This clearly has implications for all rural Manitobans and for local governments in particular. Maintaining a fair and stable tax base rooted in an accurate assessment is fundamental to all municipal operations. In fact, this initiative is in direct response to the priorities and needs that municipalities have expressed to this government in recent years.

To help achieve this, we have computerized the assessment process allowing staff to more easily update assessments every three years as required by law. We have also made assessment notices and tax statements to the property owner more user-friendly. Rural Development staff are now working to bring the reinspection process in line with the reassessment cycle. Our commitment to you is to update our property information across the province in time for the next reassessment in 1997.

The department was also pleased to have been able to increase the overall funds available to Manitoba communities through provincial-municipal tax sharing last year by 4.1 percent. This year we are projecting an overall increase in the range of 6 percent. This was made possible by improved economic growth in our province.

Once again, Manitoba Rural Development is adding three more communities to our Mobility Disadvantaged Program as we try to do every year. This program allows communities to provide transportation for mobility disadvantaged residents as well as seniors by providing start-up grants, operating grants and capital grants.

Supporting the two divisions is the Corporate Planning and Business Development branch which serves two main purposes: first, to continue to assist the two divisions with a full range of rural development initiatives they are undertaking; and to facilitate strategic alliances with a number of key organizations who have a stake in rural Manitoba, including the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and the Rural Development Institute, to name just a few.

The branch has provided valuable research support towards The Municipal Act review and the assessment reform. The intent is to ensure that future growth and development of rural Manitoba occurs within a strategic framework, which will serve as a foundation for generations to come.

In support of business and community development, the branch strives to work in close co-operation with key rural stakeholders in building the Rural Economic Development Initiative keeping rural Manitobans informed and assisting them in celebrating their successes.

Implementation of the Rural Economic Development Initiative continues. A key issue will be the effects of the removal of the Crow rate benefit and options available for rural Manitobans. In addition, several information highway and technology activities will be pursued to ensure rural Manitoba has access to information and ideas to balance economic opportunities among rural communities.

Rural Manitobans have demonstrated their high level of interest in their futures, as has been evidenced in the participation levels at the Rural Development Forum '95. The event attracted more than 3,600 rural Manitobans who believe in the need to work together to collectively address rural economic issues, reach out for innovative alternatives and make the best possible use of our resources. Participation at this year's forum was three times larger than the previous year and included 800 registrants, 400 students, 300 volunteers and speakers and more than 2,100 visitors who took in the exhibits and the Flavour of Manitoba.

The Flavour of Rural Manitoba featured 28 entries and establishments which served up some of the flavours of rural Manitoba. The forum provided a venue for these establishments to be recognized.

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In a similar fashion, we are keeping rural Manitobans informed about their achievements and key activities through Rural Development's newsletter, which has been extremely well received.

As well, in partnership with other government departments, we continue to support such projects as Bootstraps, an anecdotal accounting of Manitoba's entrepreneurial spirit, which is now in its fourth issue.

Partnering for progress, refocusing for economic renewal, enhancing services for improved program delivery and sharing information for a consistent and open communication flow, these are the operative results we will strive for in '95-96.

In closing, the Department of Rural Development is working with rural Manitobans to adapt, change and assist them while they reinvent the rural economy and alter the perceptions and realities facing local governments. We have been getting positive results, and I anticipate the coming year will see rural Manitoba moving forward.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this concludes my opening remarks, and I certainly await with eagerness the debate that will ensue.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Rural Development for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Interlake have any opening comments?

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Yes, I do.

Again, it is indeed a pleasure to be able to go through the Estimates process with the Minister of Rural Development and his staff. I would also like to welcome any new members that are participating with us.

Rural development of course, and I have said this over the years many times, is an important cog in the province of Manitoba and an important department. Rural development and rural Manitoba need the uplifting that they have been receiving in the last couple of years with lottery monies.

We, of course, feel that there should be further improvements to the rural areas and working along with rural Manitobans in certain areas. Not all areas are getting are getting their fair share of the Rural Development money that is available and services. We hope that will improve, and we will work with the department to make sure that does occur.

I would also like to state that during our process here, I would like to, in discussions with the minister, ask specific issues not only constituency-related but also related to the whole process through the whole province.

I also would like to say that the Grow Bonds issue, even though the minister says how wonderful it has been, we would also like to find out just exactly where we are going with the Grow Bonds issue for the future and for the different areas. We would also like to find out exactly where the jobs that he has indicated are, and are they full-time jobs or are they part-time jobs?

The infrastructure program itself in the province that Rural Development has been a part of, it has been indicated to us and to myself, that in some areas it is not what it is made out to be and that areas are having a tough time with the infrastructure program.

Accessibility, even though there has been some improvement--I brought this to the attention of the minister I believe last Estimates--that the REDI program itself, the accessibility to the program was not what the municipalities in the rural areas wanted or needed. Hopefully the matter has been addressed. As the minister has indicated, his department is making every effort to provide all the necessary resource information and people to assist in whatever projects or decisions that different rural communities are trying to make for the betterment of their area.

We are also very interested in The Municipal Act changes. I believe that it is time that changes were brought about. We would still like to, of course, hear from UMM and MAUM and other key players in the changes as to their concerns and if the minister himself is addressing and his department are addressing the concerns before The Municipal Act is enacted.

I look forward to, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, being able to be a part of providing rural Manitoba and rural areas with whatever possible resource that is available to them and whether it be in my own communities or whether it be in other communities around Manitoba. Hopefully, it is very, very important, I think, that we get rural areas back not only in population but back in economic development. I know that there are many projects out there that could use the support of government.

There are entrepreneurs that want to get started in different businesses, but it seems that at times when I have myself directed my constituents or other people to programs within Rural Development, the REDI program, that people have found it difficult at times to meet the criteria. I know one in particular that just basically said that it was just not for him, not for their company. They had to go through too many hoops to be able to get what they wanted and that basically they could do it themselves. I think that is unfortunate. However, I do hope that through the REDI program and through Grow Bonds we can achieve. What we are hoping for is improved rural economic areas and increase our population in Manitoba back and even higher than what it has been.

So I look forward to working with the minister and his department and staff along with my colleagues to do that, and, hopefully, we can achieve that. Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic for the official opposition for his opening remarks.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line.

Point of Order

Mr. Clif Evans: On a point of order, it certainly is up to the minister--I of course thank you very much for being allowed my opening remarks. I am wondering if we can allow the other member present to--[interjection] Yes.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent of the committee to allow the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) to make an opening statement? [agreed]

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Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank the minister; he is a fine man. I have worked very co-operatively in the past with him and will continue to do so.

I would like to say that I am pleased to be back and asked to participate as critic for Rural Development. I have always had an interest. When there were issues brought forward, I did bring them to the attention of the minister, and always with co-operation from his staff and himself.

I appreciate members opposite today giving me leave to speak and have an opening statement. It is well appreciated. The fact that we live in a democratic country, one of the main things is freedom of speech. I think I could have requested to speak. I am sure I would have been allowed to, but I am not the type to create these kinds of issues and appreciate what is being done here today.

Again, I would like to say thank you to the minister. He was over yesterday to ask if we were ready to come to Estimates today, and I said yes. At that time, I expressed the fact that we had not received the Supplementary. It was at my office this morning first thing, and I appreciate it very much.

Rural Manitoba, like I said, has always been very close to me. I was raised in rural Manitoba and continue visiting rural Manitoba on several occasions, and will continue to do that.

I think we are here, as 57 members of the Legislature, to work together for the benefit of all Manitobans, not just a section of Manitoba. Many feel that once you are inside the Perimeter you do not worry about outside Manitoba, but I do not think it is the case. It might be viewed as such at times, but it is not.

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I look forward to working with the minister and his staff again in the upcoming years, four or five, maybe five and a half, we do not know. Like I say, I will continue to work with them and with everybody co-operatively and I look forward to being part of the debates during the Estimates. I thank you very much, and to the members and to the minister, thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: As I have said, the Minister's Salary will be considered last in the Estimates. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chair, I would, first of all, like to introduce the Deputy Minister of the Department of Rural Development, Mr. Winston Hodgins, who is no stranger to many of you. For the benefit of new members at this table, Mr. Hodgins joined my department about three years ago now. We were both newcomers to the department at the time, and since that time, he has certainly led this department in a very respectable and honourable way, and I am pleased to have him as my deputy minister at the table today.

Also, we have at the front here Mr. Brian Johnston, who is a chief financial officer in the department--he takes care of our scarce resources in the department, and we are happy to have him with us here today--Aline Zollner, who is the Assistant to the Deputy Minister, and my own special assistant Brenda Wild. Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: For all present, we are on page 17 of the Supplementary Estimates book and on page 128 in the Estimates blue book. We are on line 1.(b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employees Benefits $407,100.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am wondering, even though we are going by the lines from the book here, if it would not be the same as going on the page in the supplementary. Can we do that?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: You may ask questions on your supplementary information booklet, but we have to pass it line by line in the blue book.

Mr. Clif Evans: I understand that. It is just for convenience for all of us here on this side so we know exactly where we are going from our supplement book in comparison to what you have there in the line by line from the main budget book.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: That is why I read out both page numbers at first.

Mr. Clif Evans: I am not trying to make this difficult. You know what I am saying, Mr. Minister. For the supplement book that we have here, the line from the Deputy Chairperson's book, this is page 21 of the supplementary book. I would rather, when we are dealing with it, deal with that instead of just--specifically.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We will attempt to mention both page numbers.

Mr. Clif Evans: Thank you very much.

I would, of course, like to take this opportunity to welcome the staff. I have had the pleasure of dealing with most of your staff and been very well received, I must say. Welcome to your new staff member who I had not met until today.

I am wondering, the deputy minister, his availability to not only myself and the rest of the staff but to constituents or different people raising issues to me, I would like to say that, if possible, if the minister is available to speak to on a certain matter if it would be due process to bring the matter to the attention of the deputy minister, or who would the minister like me to bring a certain issue or question, information that is required, who would he prefer I speak to on that?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chair, I think the protocol that is followed is that if members of the opposition or colleagues have issues on behalf of their constituents that they want to deal with the minister's office that they would contact the minister's office. Then from that point, if the minister is not available, whether it is my department or any other department, they would be referred to either by the staff--and in my case it would be the special assistant who handles department matters. They would be referred to the appropriate staff through the deputy minister's office. Then at least there is some communication in knowing what the issue is and how it is being dealt with.

Simply going to people within the department without going through the minister's office does not allow for any communication and understanding of what an issue might be, and so for that reason there has to be some protocol in the way that these matters are raised with the minister's office. It is only so that we are abreast and aware of how the issues are to be dealt with. We certainly do not want to keep you away from staff; they are the people who run the department. We would be only too happy to deal with these matters together, or if I am not available, certainly you will be referred to the appropriate person in the department.

Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that answer. Basically, I did ask it in lieu perhaps of our new colleagues here that would sort of have the interest, of course, in the Rural Development department and know just exactly what type of process we do go through. I have no further questions on that line.

Mr. Derkach: I would just like to say for the benefit of new colleagues at the table, Mr. Deputy Chair, if it is appropriate for you to outline the process of questioning so that members who are new to the table may get a better understanding of how they can pose a question and when.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are going line by line, and if somebody would just raise their hand they will be recognized and will be able to ask the minister questions on that particular line, as the member for Interlake has already done.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister, we are in a time where we have a tremendous concern about environment and sustainable development and preserving our rural environment for future generations. I think it is very important that we do that. Can the minister outline to us what programs are in place or what programs are being developed by his department to ensure that we have sustainable use of both land and water in rural Manitoba?

Mr. Derkach: We do not have the mandate in this department to set some of those regulations that the member for Swan River refers to; however, I would have to say that we work in co-operation with the Department of Environment, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Natural Resources in dealing with all projects and initiatives that come forward. As a matter of fact, as you know, in the Department of Rural Development we have two branches, if you like: one that deals with the economic development issues; the other that deals with the planning issues.

Our planning department works very closely with the Department of Environment and with the Department of Natural Resources when it comes to such things as planning initiatives for whether it is hog barns or any development issues to ensure that indeed our water supply, our environment is protected and that any initiative is carried out in a sustainable way.

So we do not act alone. But we certainly do work with other departments very closely. I guess in reference to the member's question the closest division of this department that would work on issues related to sustainability and environment would be our planning division that does do a lot of work with communities, with municipalities and with our sister departments.

Ms. Wowchuk: I am thinking more along the lines of sustaining the soil and drainages and things like that. The department is responsible for taxation of land, but municipalities that come under this department's branch make application for drainages and those drainages have impacts.

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We look at the flooding that we have this year in many areas, and I guess I am looking to the minister for what direction his department is taking in developing policies and programs that will control the kinds of problems that we are seeing in some parts of the province as far as drainage.

We look at the problems that the minister had in his own constituency with water this spring. I look at my own constituency where we had serious flooding problems a few years ago, and we are on the verge of having them again.

When we look at many of those problems, those problems are man made to a great degree. Sometimes they are acts of God that we have no control over, but I think the department has the responsibility to put in place programs and show guidance to municipalities to ensure that some of the problems that have been created are corrected and that we do not create more of them. So what I am looking for is what is the department's position on management of water? I realize there is an overlap, but I do believe there must be a part of it that comes under Rural Development and guidance to municipalities on how they should be handling these water problems.

Mr. Derkach: We are a player in many of these types of programs and initiatives, but we are not alone. For example, when you speak of water drainage, although people point to that as being the problem this year, it certainly is not. The problem, this year we had several things come together at the wrong time and it created a very awkward and a very difficult situation for many, and it is still doing that.

Specifically, we have a program called the Conservation District Program which we are trying to expand in the province, and we have expanded two conservation districts--or expanded one, created a new one--and there are now at least two other areas that are looking at new conservation districts. We have spent an additional $200,000 in that area this year, and we believe that conservation districts can go a long way to helping manage some of the water situations that we have across our province.

I am well aware of what the member is speaking about in the Swan River area because we have seen them and I have been there when those problems arose. So it is simply not a matter of putting an end to drainage, it is a matter of making sure that we manage, as she has rightly said, the way in which perhaps drainage is carried out so that it does not impact negatively on people who live downstream. Of course, that was the whole reason for the creation of the Shellmouth reservoir, to help people who live downstream from the Assiniboine River.

Water Resources branch from the Department of Natural Resources is a branch that does a lot of work with municipalities and water drainage. So the Department of Rural Development, although it does not work directly with these municipalities in that respect, we do work co-operatively with Water Resources and municipalities to try and resolve some of the issues that we have with respect to water drainage.

We also have the Manitoba Water Services Board. The Manitoba Water Services Board is responsible for bringing to residents in rural Manitoba potable water for domestic use, for livestock use. Also, we work co-operatively with various projects across the province to make sure there is a water supply in communities for other activities such as irrigation or whatever the case may be.

I can tell the member that we have also tried to encourage and work with our conservation districts with respect to water retention ponds and holding back water at certain times when there is an overabundance of it, especially in the springtime of the year, and then allowing it to leave those ponds at a timely basis which does not impact negatively on people downstream. So those are all kinds of initiatives that are ongoing. We are working with municipalities, with conservation districts right through the province where they exist. Although we do not have all the answers, certainly there is a need to pay some fairly acute attention to this problem or this challenge.

Additionally, we have the problem of the water coming in from the Saskatchewan activity, which is impacting quite negatively on some of the areas along the border. That too has to be addressed, and again it is not a matter of just shutting down every stream that is in existence. It is a matter of being able to manage them and manage them effectively and properly for the benefit of our residents.

Ms. Wowchuk: I guess I am looking to know what power the department has in cases where there are water problems, and this could happen in any place in the province. I am not looking specifically at any area where there are municipalities that authorize drainages that are not licensed.

What power does the department have in that case? Does the department have the ability to order the municipality to correct these problems, or does that come under another department, because I think this is something that has to be addressed?

Again, I look at the whole area of environment and sustainable development. It is not sustainable development when you have one person trying to benefit themselves and then creating problems downstream. There has to be a plan. I want to know what program it would come under or what power the department would have to enforce or correct problems that might be created by municipalities or by individuals within the municipalities, because lots of times the municipality does not know what is going on.

Since the department in their statement looks at promoting environmental and sustainable economic development, how does this fit in with the department? How could the department deal with those kind of problems?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do not have a direct responsibility in that respect with regard to the water resources in the province. That is an arm or branch of the Department of Natural Resources. The Water Resources branch is under the Department of Natural Resources. They are the ones who deal with municipalities with respect to water drainage issues, provincial waterways and so forth.

With respect to municipal waterways, that is a municipal area of responsibility, and again, these people are duly elected by their residents and have the responsibility for that.

We certainly work in co-operation. I can tell you that I have looked at lots of drainage work and lots of dam work where an individual wants to hold water, and these are all fine. They are good projects for either improving the quality of the land or making it more sustainable. However, too often, not enough care is given to what happens to that water when it leaves that property.

It is true even with highways that are built today. We build a highway. We put in a big bridge where there used to be a culvert, and we forget that downstream there are other crossings that municipalities have where the structures cannot handle the volume of water that comes suddenly, and year after year we have damage that is caused, and it is costing us as taxpayers a lot of money.

So we are beginning discussions with municipalities, with entities around the province to see whether or not we can better manage the way in which water is dealt with in the entire province. I guess the best example of a bad situation is the one that is going on right next door to Manitoba. We do not have that problem in this province yet. We have, I think, managed our affairs better, but unfortunately the drainage that is going on in Saskatchewan is bringing a tremendous amount of water into Manitoba, I think, right from the Swan River area straight through down to, well I guess the Binscarth area and even south of that. There is no control of the water once it starts leaving the Saskatchewan boundary and coming into Manitoba.

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It is creating a lot of problems for farmers, for municipalities, for residents in some of these communities, and yes, we do have to pay attention to that. But it is not one body that can do that. It is a combination of departments. My department is one, Natural Resources is another one, Agriculture is yet another department, and each department has some responsibility and onus in dealing with the situation.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think further to this the minister indicates that really it is other departments involved, but unfortunately, or fortunately, whatever way you want to put it, the municipalities or local jurisdictions that want to have these infrastructures improved, whether it be in the drainage of water, whether it be on roads, culverts, bridges, does come from local jurisdictions, requests for resolutions and that. They are under the Department of Rural Development, so I would think that the minister's department would probably want to have a bigger say when local jurisdictions go to the different departments, you know, requesting a new highway being built, a new bridge, et cetera, where again it would be somebody's responsibility to just see whether downstream of that development structure, or whatever it would be, another jurisdiction is not affected.

Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is not just this department. I mean, we have a mandate that is given to us. That does not include the management of water resources in the province. That comes under the Department of Natural Resources. So when a municipality brings in a resolution, or if the organization of municipalities brings in a resolution, although they bring it into the UMM convention where it may be passed and then it goes from there to government, it does not mean that all of those resolutions fall under my jurisdiction. It does mean, though, that we as a department co-ordinate the responses to those resolutions from the various departments.

So in that regard we are seen as a facilitator or a co-ordinator for these activities, but it is not necessarily our job to go and fix a problem. We certainly do our share in terms of making sure that other departments respond to resolutions that come forward.

Ms. Wowchuk: I think the minister has touched on what we are trying to get at here, and that is that municipalities come under this department's jurisdiction, and municipalities do take on the responsibility or pass motions or go to government with planning to the drainages or water or whatever. So what it does do is it comes back under this department. When these things happen, it is this department that gives the final say on whether or not those drainages--in conjunction with other departments. There has to be some planning done.

So this is what I was starting to look for. I think there has to be more accountability on the department, but this is what we are looking for. Who is responsible when these things happen? Drainages--I believe it is the department that says, in conjunction with other departments that say, yes, you can proceed with this drain or no, you cannot proceed with the drain. So, when they have an approved drain, that is one question, but when there are unapproved drains that take place--and I am only using drains as an example. There could be roads, for example, within an LGD. It comes back to the department, I would believe, that would be accountable for these things that happen if they are causing consequences down the road.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chair, it is not our department alone that deals with each and every matter of municipalities. So we do not have the responsibility. There is not the licensing procedure in Manitoba for drainage as such. Some municipalities have passed by-laws, if you like, which request a farmer to get a licence from a municipality to do some drainage on his or her property. There is no requirement for that individual to come to the province to get a licence to do drainage on his land. If I have got a pothole that I want to drain, I do not have to get a municipal or a provincial licence necessarily to do it.

There is no such provision in Manitoba. Now, if you are talking about major drains, and you are talking about major water movement, if you like, that is an entirely different situation. That matter then falls under the Department of Natural Resources under the Water Resources branch.

Ms. Wowchuk: Well, the minister has raised an interesting point. I am quite surprised because I was always under the impression that you had to have licences. We will take this one to the Department of Natural Resources when we get to those Estimates, because if that is the case--[interjection] Small ones lead to major ones. If you get everybody draining their land, pretty soon you have a major--and we have incidents of that, where everybody has drained a little bit into one ditch and pretty soon you have a lot of water causing problems. Anyway, he has clarified that; it is not for this department. We will take that one to Natural Resources, but it is something that we have to look at. Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1.(b)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $407,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $77,000--pass.

I would just like to mention for those new members that if they want to see 1.(b)(1) and (2), a further breakdown is on page 21 and you just follow along.

1.(c)(1) $100,500.

Mr. Clif Evans: First of all I am going to apologize, because I am sure I asked the question before, when was the Brandon office established?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I can stand to be corrected, but I believe it was either in late 1988 or 1989 when the office in Brandon was established. I do not have the exact date, but if that is an important matter, I can certainly get it for the member.

Mr. Clif Evans: Then the office in Brandon was established in whatever year that it was, for the purpose, as it says, to provide information and to provide resources for the western area of the province at that time. I see that there has not been much of an increase in resource, staffing, et cetera. In the past couple of years has the workload or the department there increased? Is there a rise in the--

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the office itself is a cabinet office outside of the city for the use of people and organizations who live a distance away from Winnipeg. We have one in northern Manitoba as well. The reason for the office is to try and give a presence to communities outside Winnipeg, also to make it more accessible to people, in this instance, in the western side of the province who are a long way from the city of Winnipeg. It also gives us an opportunity as ministers to have a place where we can work out of when we are outside of the city and also to meet organizations and groups from the western side of the province. We do that on a fairly regular basis, and it is just not this department, but in fact it is other ministries who use the cabinet office as well.

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In terms of the activity at the office, I would say it is probably held constant. It has not increased or decreased. They certainly handle their share of inquiries and telephone calls and all of those kinds of things and they do the co-ordination of meetings that have to be set up for cabinet ministers when they are there.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister mentioned the northern office, that would be Thompson. I remember in Estimates last year positions that were there, that were proposed to be put in new positions for Thompson area, were they all filled?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the northern regional cabinet office is not under my jurisdiction. That falls under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs, so I do not know anything about the details of that office.

Mr. Clif Evans: I may be in the wrong line for this, but if the minister does remember, there were, I believe, seven positions that were advertised and there was some difficulty in meeting those seven positions. Have those positions been filled?--and I apologize for not remembering the exact name of the position.

Mr. Derkach: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, but I am not following what positions the member is talking about.

Mr. Clif Evans: Rural development officers.

Mr. Derkach: Oh, okay, these are economic development officers then, but they are not working out of the Brandon office. The regional economic development officers have been situated around Manitoba in the various regional rural development offices which are quite apart from the cabinet office.

Mr. Clif Evans: Would the minister then tell us where are these people situated?

Mr. Derkach: We will be coming to that.

Mr. Clif Evans: Will we?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if is agreeable to the member, we certainly will answer that question when we get to that section on economic development and regional offices and I would be happy to share that. If I could just come back to the cabinet office and when it was opened up. The information I have is it was opened in the spring of 1989.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I am very interested in this Brandon office. I would like to get a little further assessment from the minister on how successful he figures it is, and I would be very interested in knowing if the same kind of an office could be opened within the Parkland and let me put a plug in here for Dauphin.

Mr. Derkach: No, we are not going to be opening up offices in Parkland and Interlake and everywhere else. It would be nice, but there is a cost to these offices and the Westman office in Brandon does serve pretty effectively the region that goes all the way, I think, from Swan River down to the Manitoba-North Dakota border.

We have basically two regional offices in this province, one in northern and one in western Manitoba and then, of course, our big office here in the central part of the province, so there is no intent to expand, as far as I know, the number of regional cabinet offices in the province right now.

Mr. Struthers: So what you are telling me, then, is that the services provided to the constituents in the Roblin, Grandview, Dauphin area are sufficiently being served by either the northern office or the one in Brandon or the big one in Winnipeg, and you do not see a need for expansion of that at all?

Mr. Derkach: It might be a nice convenience to have more of these offices. I am not saying that it would not be. However, given the resources that government and the taxpayers of Manitoba have, I believe that we probably meet the needs fairly effectively of people who live in these regions of the province, if you like. It is not perfect by any means, but it is certainly a lot better than it used to be because our administration was the first one to open up regional cabinet offices, and we did two of them.

Anyway I would have to say that, by and large, folks in my experience who want to meet with me from Dauphin, I am usually up there to meet with them. I do the travelling in most cases. Sometimes they do come down to Winnipeg. I have never met somebody from the Dauphin area in Brandon. I have from other regions. The Grandview area, yes, I have met with them, and the people from the Virden area, we have met with them in the cabinet office in Brandon.

Right now there is no plan to expand them to other regions.

Ms. Wowchuk: The minister indicated that that Brandon office serves the whole Westman area, and he mentioned Swan River. I would find it highly unlikely that people would be able to use that office. I think that, although the minister indicates there are not a lot of funds right now, he should look seriously at the Parkland Region, a region that has some of the highest unemployment rates, a high rate of poverty, and is a very important region to the economics of this province, if it is given the opportunity to develop, and an area that is also quite isolated in some ways as far as transportation goes.

I would ask that he consider the possibility of establishing a cabinet office in the Parkland Region. I have heard my colleague say that he is lobbying for Dauphin, and I am sure if the minister had a choice, if there was to be such, he would be lobbying for Roblin. I could quite easily lobby for Swan River, but that is not the point of all of this. I think we should be looking at the situation in the Parkland area and the need for services in the area and consider that possibility.

I would like for the minister, if possible, to provide us with some information on the Brandon office as to the number of calls that are made there or some demographics as to, do you know the number of people that drop in or the kinds of uses that are made of that office? We could find out from Northern Affairs how the office in the North is used, and how we can then look at that office and look at ways to provide better services to other parts of the province.

This office was established, as the minister said, in 1989. That was six years ago. Perhaps it is time to start considering bringing services closer to people in other parts of the province as well.

Mr. Derkach: You know, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am so happy to hear that from the member from Swan River, because it was this government, this administration, that moved on decentralization, and it was this administration that moved on regional cabinet offices, and I think they have been a positive experience all around.

Now, I am not going to sit here today and tell the member from Swan River that we are prepared to establish yet another cabinet office, because they do take dollars, and we want to make sure we are prudent in the way that we establish these offices.

She asked about the number of phone calls. In terms of phone calls, first of all, there are about 325 calls in the Westman Cabinet Office per month, calls with regard to boards and groups that have used the cabinet office and the liaison services. We have, I can read the list here, a variety of organizations, ranging from the City of Winnipeg through to the environmental departments, the MPIC, Lotteries Foundation, the Farm Machinery Board that meet there. Many of our boards that are working at the region, for example, the Surface Rights Board, will from time to time use the cabinet office board room to meet in there as well, so it is an office that certainly does have its benefits. Is it time to look at other areas? Well, I have not heard that to date, and perhaps the Leader of the Opposition is raising this issue with the Premier and Executive Council Estimates as well, because it is really a cabinet office that we are looking at.

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Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, and perhaps the minister has a list here, if he would be able to table it for us and give us some idea of the use of that office. I wonder, when we look at establishing new offices and the minister talks about the various boards that have used it, whether there has been any analysis done of the comparison of the cost of running an office for this type of thing versus renting space for meetings. I think that is a legitimate question, to say, you know, has the department done an analysis of the value of having a cabinet office. Is it a cost saving? Is it a convenience for cabinet members? Is it image in the community? Have you done an analysis of what the merits are of having that office there versus renting space for committees when they have to meet?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is not just committees when they have to meet, it is certainly our staff who use it. My deputy, for example, will use that if he is in Brandon. I will use that as a cabinet minister in Brandon when I meet with groups in that Westman area. Has there been an analysis done? Not that I am aware of, but on the other hand, the member is advocating that we should perhaps open some other regional offices. At this point in time I can only tell you that there is no plan to open up any additional offices and that we will continue with the Brandon office for the Westman area.

Ms. Wowchuk: When I was asking whether there is an analysis, the government says, you know, we cannot expand offices because--we probably will not be able to expand because it is a cost factor. I am just saying, if it is a cost factor, then you should be looking at the cost factor of keeping this office open and looking at the merits of it.

The minister mentioned decentralization, and I want to say that--he said it was his government that started decentralization--I think that the minister should look very carefully at the record because, in fact, there has been criticism of some of the decentralization jobs that were moved out of the city under the previous government. So, although it did not have the title of decentralization specifically, our administration did move jobs. If I can remember correctly, there was criticism of the number of jobs that were in Dauphin under the NDP administration. So there was decentralization, and I hope that the minister will continue to look at bringing services closer to the people, and, again, I look at places where there is high unemployment, places where people have difficulty getting access to government because of their finances, and looking at ways that we can bring services closer to all people in rural Manitoba, not just in the Westman area.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(c) Brandon Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $100,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $53,400--pass.

1.(d) Human Resource Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $113,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $20,700--pass.

1.(e) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $250,000--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $198,800--pass.

2. Boards (a) Municipal Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $402,200.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the notes that we do have on the expenditures of the Municipal Board, the increase under the lines Salaries and Other explains to us that from the '94-95 year we went from $75,000 to $134,000. It explains here, but can the minister explain why the problem of having to pay out two board members for the hearings? What caused that?

Mr. Derkach: That issue relates to the number of outstanding appeals and the number of appeals that the board has had to deal with. The increase in the appeals has meant that there has been much more board activity, which has resulted into a greater cost in terms of per diems for board members.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chair, well, I get to the question then--the minister says that there are more appeals through the process now since the '94 reassessment. Are we looking at even further appeals after the next reassessment? I know that this is speculating, but if such an increase has occurred, almost double in cost for board members just from the '94 assessment, what type of appeals are we looking at, what type of reasons? What is the board looking at at these appeals? Why are the people--

Mr. Derkach: Well, the reason for the appeals, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, is because of the reassessment within the city here. If the member would just go back a little bit, he will understand that the reassessment in the city of Winnipeg was one which has been undertaken in the last couple of years fairly aggressively and, before that, had not been undertaken for a long time, so that has resulted in a lot of appeals coming before the board.

Additionally, I have to tell you that the board has taken it upon themselves to try and reduce the enormous backlog that has been present before the board for a long, long time, and we have been able to reduce the number of cases before the board substantially. However, the bottom line is that the appeals from the city of Winnipeg have been larger in number as a result of reassessment, and indeed, this has caused a greater workload for board members and for staff.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister then--he answered a question I was going to ask about the backlog. Approximately what would the backlog be now? I must make mention that I am aware of a change of chairman because of an untimely death, but has the board been able to get back into the swing of things? Really, what kind of a backlog are we looking at--a month, two months, three months, a year?

Mr. Derkach: As of March 13, 1995, the appeals outstanding outside of the city of Winnipeg were 190, in Winnipeg, 446, for a total of 636.

Mr. Clif Evans: Winnipeg 446 and 190 outside?

Mr. Derkach: Yes.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know it is probably a tough question to answer, dealing with the '97 reassessment. When they have caught up with the appeals from the '94, will this expenditure, of course, go down then because it is on a per diem for when the board members have to meet?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, the costs will decrease. As the number of appeals are dealt with, then the number of appeals decreases as well.

Mr. Clif Evans: I do have a question that goes back to the last Estimates. We brought up a point with the minister about Gimli, Chudd's Chrysler. At that time, there was a board member who had filed the appeal notice for the decision to have that construction go ahead, the business go ahead with new construction. Can the minister tell me whether that board member is still not a board member?

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Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the board member resigned at the time, and has not been reinstated or reappointed. No.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(a)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $402,200--pass.

2.(a)(2) Other Expenditures $202,100.

Mr. Clif Evans: The other expenditure of 134, that was basically for the salaries and per diem for the board members? The $202,000 is related to what, other expenditures, such as hotel rooms, travel, meals?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, those expenses relate to the cost to travel, the meal and the accommodation costs of the board and the staff who have to travel to the hearings around the province.

Mr. Clif Evans: If memory serves me correctly, if there is an appeal hearing, there are three board members and the chair that attend and staff from your department.

Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Deputy Chair, the staff from the Municipal Board are the ones who would attend, along with the chair of the board and usually three members of the board.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(a)(2) Other Expenditures $202,100--pass.

2.(b) Surface Rights Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $25,600.

Mr. Clif Evans: Just for information on this, I have always been sort of interested in this part of the department, even though the explanation in our supplement is here, if the minister could just provide me with a quick review of what this board does exactly or what is its mandate?

Mr. Derkach: The mandate of this board is "To provide comprehensive procedure to adjudicate problems which arise between the operators (oil companies or their agents) and landowners or occupants in matters relating to surface rights." There is a five-person board that is appointed by the province to adjudicate these problems. These problems, largely, are in the area of the oil patch in the province of Manitoba. The board meets whenever there is a situation that arises, or, failing that, the board will meet from time to time to make sure they are abreast of what is going on in the whole area of the oil patch and surface rights that might be coming forward to the board at some point in time.

Mr. Clif Evans: So basically the board just specifically deals with that area that is involved with oil companies and landowners. There will be no other entity that would be under this Surface Rights Board.

Mr. Derkach: That is true, Mr. Deputy Chair. This board is made up of individuals who have some knowledge of the surface rights issues or issues as they relate to matters dealing with surface rights and the oil companies. So they are fairly, I guess, focused on that whole issue of the surface rights area, and they have no other jurisdiction beyond that.

Mr. Struthers: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I realize that nine out of 10, 90 percent with 10 left over, is a good batting average in any league. I am concerned about the 10 percent that do not settle with the board. Is there any jurisdiction from your department, do you have any way of intervening to try to even improve the percentage that is there, the number of cases that are actually settled amicably in these kinds of cases? Do not get me wrong, 90 percent is great, but what about the other 10?

Mr. Derkach: The responsibility of this board is to try to resolve some of these issues without having them go through the courts and the legal procedures that would be very costly to the individuals and would be tied up for years. The purpose of the board is to try to resolve these matters so all parties go away feeling that they have been dealt with fairly.

In about 10 percent of the cases that maybe cannot happen. So in those cases we would then have to have a process through the legal courts to try and address the issue.

Yes, we try to endeavour to settle every issue that comes before the board, but that is not always possible.

Mr. Struthers: There is no provision for you as the minister or anybody in your department to come in between the decisions of this board and the legal system.

Mr. Derkach: That is what the board is designed to do, to be the intervenor, if you like, or the mediator of issues between an oil company and a landowner. For a minister to become embroiled in it after an appointed board has dealt with it would not be productive at all. As a government we try to make sure that every possible avenue is explored to resolve an issue but, failing that, through the board, if it cannot be resolved, then the owner or the oil company has recourse to the courts.

Mr. Struthers: There is no consideration then to install another level there before it gets to the court system. I am worried about creating a backlog again like there was at one time, and I would encourage the minister to look at another level in there where these 10 percent of people can be dealt with before it does head to the court system.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)

I also would be interested in knowing if I as a landowner have a dispute and I cannot settle it with an oil company and I go through the legal system, is there any provision there for financial assistance for the landowner when they go into the legal system, not through this department, or maybe another one.

Mr. Derkach: No, that is why we have the Surface Rights Board, and the amount of activity is very minimal at the Surface Rights Board level. The reason for that board is to try and limit the cost that might be incurred by a landowner in a dispute between the landowner and an oil company. So that is the province's response in trying to resolve this. Now, this is a quasi-judicial board that has been put in place, and they do have some powers, but nine out of 10 cases is not a bad average.

Can we improve on that? We certainly will try. But as in any other situation, once you have exhausted the avenues of mutual agreement or an attempt to settle amicably, if that does not work then there is always an appeal, and that appeal is through the courts.

The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): No more questions?

2.(b) Surface Rights Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $25,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $15,400--pass.

Resolution 13.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $645,300 for Rural Development, Boards, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1996.

Item 3. Corporate Planning and Business Development (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $614,200.

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Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, very well done.

I want to ask the minister, and again I do not want the minister to read from the book; I can read from the book too, believe it or not. This Corporate Planning and Business Development, can you give me a little bit of an insight as to what that part of the department does? Who does it? The type of employees? Is it administrative?

Mr. Derkach: First of all, I would like to introduce the Director of the Corporate Planning branch, Mr. Ron Riopka, who has joined us. This branch of the department is there to do the corporate planning for our department. They are there to liaise, communicate and ensure that matters that are being developed in the department are done in a way where there is co-ordination between the two arms of the department, the municipal services arm and the economic development arm.

This is the branch that plans such things as the Rural Development Forum; it has been a major part of its mandate over the past couple of years to plan and to actually carry out the responsibilities and the co-ordination of the entire forum. So they do spend a lot of time in that regard.

In addition to that, new initiatives which the department embarks on are usually dealt with through that part of the department because this is where we do the development of an initiative. This is where we ensure that whatever initiative it might be is well thought out, has got some research done on it, and before it comes forward for public announcement, all of the homework and all of the due diligence is done. So this is the arm of the department that does all that kind of work.

Mr. Clif Evans: Besides the forum, what other activities are in this part of the department? What do we see in the future as far as making plans for, besides the Rural Development Forum for next year? Anything else in the department?

Mr. Derkach: I cannot be specific about the day-to-day activities of the department or of that particular branch, but they also involve themselves in the planning issues with regard to planning districts around the province. They give assistance to planning districts around the province as well, so besides just the issues that I talked about they also carry on that responsibility.

Basically, if an idea is floated up through the department or from the minister's office or wherever it might come from, this branch of the department will research the issue and come back to us with regard to the viability, the feasibility or, if you like, the practicality of forging ahead with the initiative.

They are working on such issues as communication in rural Manitoba, the technologies, the information highway for rural Manitoba. There is a lot of work that goes on in the department from a day-to-day basis that, you know, we can read a list out of. I am just trying to give you a general flavour of what this particular branch of the department does.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, anybody from rural Manitoba with any kind of initiative or idea would not be coming to this department directly. They would be coming to your office, let us say. Then it would be passed on for this department to do the research and provide the advice and resource for that initiative from wherever it comes from, basically.

Mr. Derkach: That may be, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, but that is not always the case. It depends on what the issue might be.

Let me give a for-instance. If a community wants to come forward with an initiative in the telecommunications area and if we needed some guidance and information and research to be done in that regard, the Corporate Planning branch is where we would probably go to give us some assistance in that regard.

Additionally, with a lot of the rural--for example, we have implemented what is called the rural strategy. I am sure the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) is aware of it. Again, the implementation of that strategy and the development of that strategy were, by and large, co-ordinated through this particular arm of the department.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

I could mention also, Mr. Deputy Chair, that Junior Achievement, which has been an overwhelming success in rural Manitoba, was also carried out by this branch of the department as well.

Mr. Clif Evans: It was just for clarification and better insight into the specifics of that area of the department. Thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3.(a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $614,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $72,700--pass.

Resolution 13.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $686,900 for Rural Development, Corporate Planning and Business Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1996.

Item 4. Local Government Services (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $103,700.

Mr. Clif Evans: This arm of the department provides for delivery of services to local government, including assessment services except the City of Winnipeg. This department then would be the main body to help municipalities, LGDs, jurisdictions, with all their finances only.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chair, before I answer that question, if I could introduce to the table two staff members who have joined us: the Assistant Deputy Minister for the Local Government Services Division, Ms. Marie Elliott, and also Mr. Roger Dennis, who is the Executive Director of the Local Government Services Division.

Now, with regard to the responsibilities of this department, yes, they interact directly with municipalities on a variety of issues. In addition to that, the assessment area is carried out by this branch of the department. For example, another responsibility is the Water Services Board, which is also under this division of the department. So, basically, they provide support to local governments throughout the province. There are staff field officers out in the field who are constantly in touch with the municipalities and the problems that municipalities come up with on a day-to-day basis. We have regional offices throughout the province where staff from those offices are assigned to various municipalities and work with them on a variety of day-to-day issues.

Mr. Clif Evans: You say in the variety of areas now. What areas? Where are these offices?

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Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, every municipality has financial issues that they deal with. The Local Government Services Division of this department liaises with all municipalities with regard to their financial aspects that come up from day to day and from meeting to meeting, I guess. Also, by-laws that are passed from municipalities, those are issues that municipalities want advice from our staff. Again, this administration arm looks after that. Assessment and reassessment are a huge responsibility of this branch of the department, and also the whole issue of the various tax notices that have to go out and that sort of thing are handled through this branch of the department as well.

The other thing I should say is with regard to finances, all of these municipalities prepare budgets for themselves, and our responsibility as a department is to make sure that someone reviews those budgets. Again, this arm of the department is responsible for that.

Mr. Clif Evans: Would this part of the department also be responsible for the local government districts as a whole?

Mr. Derkach: Yes.

Mr. Clif Evans: This is the main and still with the other municipalities, et cetera, but the LGD system as it is now falls under the direction of this department.

Mr. Derkach: Yes, this branch of the department also has responsibility for LGDs as well.

There was a question I did not answer, though. Our municipal services officers are housed in Brandon, The Pas and Winnipeg.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will find out what the minister said in reading Hansard tomorrow.

If I might, I think what I am trying to lead to with this is the problems that some of the municipalities, as the minister mentioned, the problems that they do have, ongoing problems, day-to-day problems, complaints, issues that have to deal with the local districts, local jurisdictions, municipalities or whatever, how involved can the minister's department and this department get when it comes to issues and some perhaps serious complaints about how the municipality is being run or a complaint against any councillor, any project that is being done in a municipality?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chair, yes, as long as the council and the councillors, if you like, are conducting their affairs in accordance with The Municipal Act, they are an autonomous body. They are duly elected by the residents of their municipality and there is a Municipal Act that guides their activities.

I know that we have received calls and complaints from time to time in various municipalities where residents feel that a municipal councillor or the municipality have not been conducting their affairs appropriately. However, as long as they are conducting them within the framework of The Municipal Act, we do not interfere.

Yes, we can consult with them. We can advise them as to what the appropriate ways to deal with the situation are, but in the end, it is the responsibility of the council because they are an autonomous body.

Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that. Unfortunately, that does not swing in some areas and in some issues and in some concerns all the time. I know what the minister is saying. I know that I have, in the past term, done my very best to sit down with constituents and people in other areas, not only my own, but in other areas, bringing matters to my attention on the goings-on within a municipality or a town or a village, LGD.

It is a difficult situation. I am aware of the fact that the minister said, these are duly elected by their people in their area, and it is a separate entity. However, there are people out there that feel that the government should be stepping in and doing things when they bring their issues to the attention of the department.

You know, there are times that it comes back to myself, and since I have been the Rural Development critic and previous to that, and we, as their elected officials in the province, have to do something about what is going on in Timbuktu, Manitoba, and I would like the minister's response to that.

Mr. Derkach: Again, as I said, municipalities are autonomous bodies by and large. As long as they follow The Municipal Act, we do not interfere with their day-to-day operations. However, when a problem arises, we do have people in the department who will consult with these municipalities, give them advice as to how they should deal with a situation. Again, that is about as far as we can go because we do not have authority to do otherwise.

In addition, to try and ensure that municipalities do their work appropriately, we do conduct an audit of all of their affairs on an annual basis to ensure that the procedures and so forth are in place.

Beyond that, if you start interfering into their affairs, then I think you are stepping out of the mandate of the department, and certainly, you would be questioned about it, whether or not your actions are appropriate.

Mr. Clif Evans: So the minister is saying that if a constituent from any area in Manitoba came to his department with a complaint about his or her jurisdiction, the minister would indicate, or his department would indicate, that unless it is something that is not falling in within the guidelines of The Municipal Act, that they cannot, will not, should not do anything about it.

Mr. Derkach: If it is an area where we can advise council and be of benefit to them in that regard, we will, and if an issue is raised, we certainly have staff in the department who will go out and discuss it and consult on it with a municipality.

But our powers are limited, as they should be, because these people are duly elected by their ratepayers. Unless it is something that has been flagrant in terms of the way that a municipality has conducted itself, we are not going to interfere.

However, if a municipality, though, does come into financial difficulty because of its mismanagement, then it can be placed under the administration of the department, but that is probably the only instance where a municipality will be placed under the supervision of a department.

Mr. Clif Evans: If in letter or by phone call a constituent of a jurisdiction makes a formal complaint, will the minister's department, this arm of the department, meet with and hear out what the complaint is and whether it has any merit in following up, as far as going to the municipality with it?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we will.

Mr. Clif Evans: So then, Mr. Minister, what I would appreciate is a further response to this in some sort of--and I will request it in writing also--a basic understanding of this so that when people come to me I can assist them in telling them exactly, here is how it works.

Mr. Derkach: That is no problem, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. We would certainly be prepared to give the member that kind of advice.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4. Local Government Services (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $103,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $32,600--pass.

4.(b) Assessment (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,557,300.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this part of the Local Government Services--Assessment, Salaries and Employee Benefits, I see there are over 120 employees, 126 under this department.

Does the minister foresee any further expenditures or any further job openings when it comes to the reassessment?

* (1650)

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, from time to time there are retirements and that sort of thing in that branch, vacancies that will be filled, but we have been fairly active in the last year with reassessment. The assistant deputy minister has certainly gone a long way in making sure that this branch of the department responds in a positive way to the clients that are out there so that people understand why it is reassessments are done and the benefits of reassessment. We have gone so far as to have open houses around the province in the last year to make sure that before tax notices are sent out people understand exactly what it is that the impact might be and why it is there.

Mr. Clif Evans: I was not trying to indicate that we should be providing jobs, more jobs, but what I was getting around to is that, because of the new assessment, the reassessment, the upcoming reassessment, the problems that have occurred with the reassessments in the past, we see why the municipal boards are having to do more. Basically, what I am saying is there an opportunity within this department, is there an opportunity, or are we going to see more appeals, less explanation, less--

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would have to say that in the last four or five years, there has been a tremendous amount of work that has been carried out with regard to ensuring better services to our clients. We probably have a better tax statement today than we have ever had, again as a result of trying to meet the demands of the clients that we serve. We are trying to ensure that our reassessments are done on a timely basis so that we meet the reassessment cycle in an appropriate way.

All of this is fairly recent and new in the department. I would have to say that with the staff resources we have there today, I think the job has been done admirably well. We have a lot more happy customers out there than we did four or five years ago. A lot of it has to do with computerization and having the technology available to do all of that.

Beyond that, I think we have a staff component out in the Assessment branch that view their responsibilities in a way where they are there to serve the clients, and they try to make sure that the communication part of it is just as important as the reassessment itself.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that is basically what I was getting around to and down to the point. If all these services can be provided and everybody out there is understanding better the system and the process moving a lot better, then perhaps we would not need such lengthy appeal processes as we have now that have come at us since the '94 reassessment. Basically that is what I am also trying to say to the minister.

Under this line, can we foresee a need--at the beginning, would we have a need for further employees in that department to make the process even better? If the minister feels that, going along, those services will improve with what is there, so much the better, so the system is better.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, every department, I guess, would like to have more staff to carry out the responsibilities. We would like to do a better service, of course. I think we have done a fairly good job with the number of staff we have.

In addition, we are doing a pilot on some self-reassessment which I think is going to help us in the long term. Again, it is just a pilot at this stage, and we will have to wait and see what the results of that are like.

I would have to say, at this time, staff is as shown here, and we are not looking at large expansions or reductions.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister mentioned this pilot program on self-reassessment. Do we have a timetable as far as when this may come into play? Is it for the next--

Mr. Derkach: We will have a fairly good handle on how effective it is over the next year. Then we will have to determine whether or not this is something that our province is ready for and whether or not we should try it on a broader scale.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4.(b) Assessment (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,557,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,110,300--pass.

4.(c)(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $737,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $366,900--pass; (3) Transit Grants $1,325,000--pass; (4) Centennial Grants $14,800--pass; (5) Municipal Support Grants $1,001,000--pass.

Mr. Clif Evans: These Support Grants, can the minister indicate just how this money is distributed within the municipalities?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Deputy Chair, the Municipal Support Grants are the payroll tax, I guess payments that are made to municipalities. The calculations are based on 4.5 percent of the previous year's payroll in the $750,000 to the $1,500,000 range and 2.25 percent over that. So it is basically the payroll tax rebate that is given to municipalities.

* (1700)

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Just to provide an explanation to our new members, when the Estimates for Rural Development are next considered, we will pick up at the same spot where we left off today.

The hour is now five o'clock and time for private members' hour. Committee rise.