Garment Industry
Employment Opportunities
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.
Last year when I attended the Fashion Institute annual meeting, they reported to us that some 700 positions were available for skilled and trained people in their industry that were going wanting.
Last evening, regrettably, that number has now--or thankfully, depending on what way you are looking at it. It is very good in terms of the industry, but there are 1,500 positions now that the industry claimed at their annual meeting last night attended by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that could be filled with properly trained people.
Obviously, properly trained people includes people who are available in our domestic market and people who are available potentially through immigration.
I would like to ask the Premier, why has this number more than doubled over the last 12 months, and why have we got no results in terms of getting those positions filled and taking advantage of the work of garment workers now in Winnipeg and the apparel industry?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the member for the question. There are a number of facets to the answer. Firstly, the number has doubled because of the fact that probably something in the range of 800 to 1,000 additional jobs have been added in the garment industry or are in the process of being added through a phenomenal period of growth for our fashion industry, one that is marked by tremendous export opportunities in major markets such as New York and Los Angeles and right across the U.S.
Madam Speaker, in addition to all of that, the shortage has been exacerbated by a lack of opportunity to bring immigrants into the province to help us with the specific skill shortages. The fashion industry, the Manitoba Fashion Institute, in co-operation with the government of Manitoba, are capable of training a certain number of people each and every year, and those programs remain in place and will be expanded, but with the explosive growth, the only source of sufficient personnel is if immigration opportunities are opened.
We have made that point on numerous occasions, both by virtue of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) speaking with and writing to the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy. We have also made the point by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer) writing to and meeting eventually with the federal Minister of Immigration, and as recently as this morning, several of our ministers met with the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, Mr. David Walker, member of Parliament, and others of their staff to try and address directly this issue.
It is a serious issue. It is an issue that should be an enormous benefit to the province but, obviously, is a problem because we are not able to obtain the co-operation from the federal government to assist us in solving the problem.
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Immigration Agreement
Status Report
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the public of Manitoba is aware that the Premier promised in 1990 to have a federal-provincial agreement on immigration. He made that promise in the previous election.
Madam Speaker, since that time, we have had some 40 percent decline in the number of immigrants coming to this province through the Mulroney government, through the Campbell government that the Premier argued he would have good relations with and now through the Liberal government in Ottawa.
I would like to know what are the results, the specific results, of the meeting today with Minister Axworthy. Do we have a tangible action plan that will override the downtown Toronto immigration policy that we now see enunciated by the federal government?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we presented the Government of Canada with a specific plan of action that we believe will solve the problem, and we, I believe, were given a fair and positive hearing this morning. I might say that last Friday I took the matter to the attention of the Prime Minister, and I am led to believe that the federal government will work towards a solution of the problem.
We remain committed to a separate federal-provincial Canada-Manitoba immigration agreement, and that matter was addressed at the meeting between the Honourable Sergio Marchi and our Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer), and he indicated he was waiting for a green light to be given to him as a result of discussions that we then held this morning.
It is our understanding that green light will be given to him by his colleagues. We remain optimistic and that is what I can report as of this morning's meeting.
Mr. Doer: In a similar time in the early '70s, former Premier Schreyer reached an agreement with the garment industry, with garment workers, and with the federal government to expeditiously deal with the shortage of people, again, with an expanding industry.
Madam Speaker, I would like to know, given the fact that the Premier has made this promise through three successive Prime Ministers and made the promise five years ago to have a made-in-Manitoba immigration policy, when will we get tangible results?
I am glad to hear the meeting went well today, but when do we expect to have a plan of action that will have tangible results?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, my colleagues and I in government have remained steadfastly committed to achieving this agreement. We need, obviously, a federal partner that is willing to sign with us and be co-operative in achieving that goal.
Although we appeared to have been stymied for quite a substantial period of time, as of this morning's meeting we believe that the matter should proceed quickly and I hope to be able to report further progress in the near future.
Endangered Spaces Program
Treaty Land Entitlements
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I have a new question on federal-provincial relations and First Nations relations with this government, to the First Minister.
Last March we asked questions to the government about what we perceive to be, and what First Nations perceive to be, the unilateral action of the provincial government in designating two million acres of land as set-aside land under the so-called Endangered Spaces Program. When we raised this in this House the government denied that this had taken place, in fact, argued that an earlier paper, without boundaries, in '94 was in fact de facto consultation.
Since that time, the federal minister has written to the provincial government arguing as we had in the House, as the member for Rupertsland had argued in the House and others had argued, that little effort was made to consult with my department and with Manitoba First Nations effectively in terms of designating lands for this Endangered Spaces proposal.
I would like to ask the Premier: Has the government taken into consideration not only the First Nations views on this matter, but the federal Minister of Indian Affairs in terms of his concerns with the provincial government about the unilateral action of the provincial government, which may jeopardize treaty land entitlement negotiations which are very important to First Nations and all people in this province?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, this question was raised in the House at the time when we made the positive announcement of setting aside the four new provincial parks.
At that time when the question was raised I tabled in this House the people that had all been contacted and asked for responses in the consultation process. Every member of the Legislature had that made available to them. We had people that did reply, from the First Nations people that replied to the inquiries that we made. In terms of the letter that was received by the federal minister, we clarified our position with that minister as well.
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Consultations--First Nations
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the minister and the Premier know that the follow-up consultations have been deemed by the federal government, which is also a party of treaty land entitlements, to be inadequate.
I would like to ask a further question to the Premier. Not only have First Nations people found that this process was inadequate and unfair, not only has the federal government found that this is unfair, we now have a letter from the World Wildlife Federation that basically says, and according to Monte Hummel, having originally supported the designation of these parks, we are disappointed to hear that the designation did not involve adequate consultation with First Nations people.
I would like to ask the Premier: We have a number of groups now saying that you did not proceed fairly and properly. Will you now rescind the Order-in-Council and start working in partnership with First Nations people in this province?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, both the federal minister and Mr. Hummel were ill informed and were not aware that all of these organizations had been contacted and asked for their comments and participation. They did have the opportunity and they chose not to participate for whatever reason. Many others, dozens of other people given the same letter and the same invitation to comment and participate did. If either one of them had been informed, they would not have written those letters.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, you only have the Conservative Party that feels that they have been properly informed and proceeding in a unilateral way without agreement from First Nations, the federal government and now the World Wildlife Federation that is involved with the government on the Endangered Spaces Program.
Madam Speaker, perhaps the Premier would stop being so stubborn and start listening to the citizens and First Nations citizens in this province and get agreement on something so crucial as two million acres of land.
I would like to further ask the Premier: Mr. Monte Hummel goes on to say that the First Nations had not been consulted about the specific boundaries of the two million acres of land set aside unilaterally by this province, contrary to the wishes and agreement of First Nations, but the land with First Nations may have abrogated existing agreements.
I would like to ask the Premier, in light of this information, the federal government, the opposition, First Nations people and the World Wildlife Federation, will you rescind the Order-in-Council so we can start with treaty land entitlement negotiations in a much more positive way rather than the stubborn way we see from the provincial government opposite?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, it is interesting that we should be lectured about settling treaty land entitlements by the Leader of the Opposition whose party in government for six and a half years did not settle one acre of treaty land entitlement.
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr. Doer: The First Minister is impugning our motives when he knows in '85 there was an agreement on treaty land entitlement that was rejected by the federal Conservative government in Ottawa, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the irony of that where he says his position was not accepted so therefore his unilateral position was the right position and that is what it takes to make an agreement--the irony of it, the irony of that foolishness.
Not one acre of land was settled under their administration, and this administration has settled treaty land entitlements on a number of occasions since we have been in office.
Madam Speaker, I repeat, the words that he quoted from that letter, from both letters, were ill-informed words, were not aware of the process that was followed, the consultations that were requested and that were invited that did not happen, not because of this administration but because of the fact that those to whom the letter was sent did not respond or did not care to be consulted.
Fishing Industry
Whitefish Quotas
Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
Northern fishermen on Lake Winnipeg do not need a Natural Resources review of the fishing industry to tell them that catching whitefish at 50 cents a pound is not profitable.
Is the minister aware of the numerous requests made to his department asking to extend the whitefish quotas for northern fishermen for three weeks of the season?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the first responsibility that myself as minister and the Department of Natural Resources has is to make sure that we have resources out there and that they are sustainable, namely, wildlife, whether forestry or whether it is fish.
Madam Speaker, it is because of the last hundred years that the Department of Natural Resources basically established quotas, established boundaries, so that there would be a sustainable yield from the fisheries.
Madam Speaker, we are still operating on that premise, and we cannot knee-jerk to every request that comes. There have been many requests in this last year, some dissatisfactions, and we are going to be dealing with them. We are setting up a private, independent consulting group that is going to basically study all the quotas, boundaries, all issues.
The terms of reference have been worked out in conjunction with the people on the lake, the commercial fishermen. This study is going to be imminent, to be taking off at any given time now, and we hope to have the results by the end of this fiscal year.
Mr. Struthers: I have a letter from the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation that I would like to table in the House today. The letter asks for more whitefish.
Given this, will the minister reconsider his decision not to open the whitefish quota for northern fishermen, and will he extend the fall fishing season by 10 days due to good weather?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, one thing that has to be considered is that we have quotas. We have a summer fishery, we have a fall fishery and we have a winter fishery.
The whitefish fishery that is in place right now basically terminates at the end of October. The prices are between 50 cents and 60 cents at the present time. Normally what happens is that when the winter fishery starts, which is at the end of November, prices jump nearly double in terms of the whitefish fishery, so there is a benefit for people to basically maybe wait with that fishery.
At the present time, Madam Speaker, what also impacts the whole issue is the fact that at this time the whitefish are moving into the rivers to spawn. It is for this reason that certain quotas are set, so that we have a sustainable yield for the fish for the future.
Mr. Struthers: Will the minister then meet with northern fishermen who have brought 7,000 pounds of whitefish to the Legislature today to give away, instead of wasting this fish by dumping it in the bush as his department's regulations force them to do?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, I am trying to explain the process that has been in place for many years. This is not a problem that has developed just this year, but we will try and address it.
Madam Speaker, the last time that there was an extensive study done on the Lake Winnipeg fishery was approximately 25 years ago. Certain circumstances have changed. There are a lot of concerns out there, and it is for that reason that we are going to have an independent, third-party study taking place with terms of reference that were guided by the commercial fishermen, and we are going to have that study done.
I expect that report to be in my hands by the end of December, so that we can deal with it for the future and next year's fishing season.
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Fishing Industry
Whitefish Season Extension
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions are also directed to the Minister of Natural Resources, concerning the crisis that northern fishermen are facing today, Madam Speaker.
Given the fact that fishermen in Norway House have run out of quota due to the manner in which the whitefish is calculated on their pickerel catch, what can this minister do in terms of trying to assist and accommodate the fishermen of Norway House? Will he extend the season for about two or three weeks?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the fall fishing season ends at the end of October. The whitefish fishery is open until that time, and then there is approximately a month until the ice forms when the winter season starts and when the prices are invariably better.
The request of Norway House and other communities that basically have asked about quota increases, there is that opportunity to buy quota. We brought in that regulation that they can buy quota from those people who are not actively pursuing their quotas. They can buy quota and increase it that way.
Madam Speaker, it would be irresponsible if we just carte blanche allowed every request for an increase in quota in a season. It would be irresponsible for us in terms of sustaining the fish yields for the future.
Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, could I ask this minister then to take charge of this department and put the interests of northern fishermen ahead of a handful of fishermen from Gimli?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, the system has been in place for the last hundred years. There is an ongoing conflict between the southern basin and the northern basin fishermen in terms of who has what rights.
That is what this study is supposed to be addressing to some degree. Do we have too much quota? Do individuals have too much quota? Should people from Gimli be fishing in the north basin or not? These issues are all part of the terms of reference that will be dealt with, Madam Speaker, and I say again, the government and the department has been working very closely with the commercial fishermen. We have an advisory board on Lake Winnipeg, where each community has an elected representative. They meet twice a year, make recommendations to my department, to myself, and we have qualified people who basically do the assessment together with the advisory board.
Madam Speaker, we are trying to pay attention. We know there is agony and pain out there in terms of poor fishery in the north basin. I cannot change some of those things.
Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, my last question, again, is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
Will the minister advise the House whether allowing 12 fishermen from the Gimli area, when 80 percent of the fishermen in Manitoba are aboriginal people, to have a full run of Lake Winnipeg, to completely monopolize, have full control of Lake Winnipeg, does he think that is fair, discriminatory or racist?
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the honourable member for The Pas to rephrase his question and withdraw the word "racist." I had ruled on this previously, and I was very, very adamant that the word "racist" will not be permitted in this Chamber.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, I would seek a ruling because in looking at your ruling and also looking at the House of Commons precedent, the precedent in the House of Commons that deals with the term "racist" was in specific reference to a member. It was an accusation that was made by a member of the House of Commons towards a then-Conservative cabinet minister.
Your ruling referred to comments referring to a specific individual. It has never been my understanding that racist policies are unparliamentary, and I ask, Madam Speaker, in asking for your ruling on this matter, to consider, for example, what would have happened in South Africa when they brought in apartheid, whether members of the duly elected Chamber could not have called racist policies racist policies.
I believe, if you would look at the comments made by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), he did not make any reference to any individual member of the House. He referred specifically to racist policies, and I would submit, Madam Speaker, it is not only parliamentary, it is the duty, the privilege of all members to raise those kinds of concerns on policy issues in this Legislature, and if it gets to the point where we cannot call policies what they are, we cannot represent our constituents, so I strongly ask that you do not rule racist comments out of order.
Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, your charge and the charge of other Speakers during the time that I have had the privilege of being in this House has always been to choose our words very carefully.
Madam Speaker, the question of the word "racist," whether it refers to one person or in the case of referring to everyone on this side of the House as part of the government clearly is out of order.
If a policy that is implemented by our government, members on this side of the House, is deemed to be racist by members opposite, then, Madam Speaker, it impugns the motives of all of us on this side of the House, and it is clearly out of order and ought to be so ruled.
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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I think if you will review Hansard, you will find a similar question from the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) last June, dealing with the so-called racist policies of immigration from the federal government.
The government House leader never stood up on a point of order. The minister never objected to the point of order. In fact, he answered the question on two occasions. You did not rule the question out of order, and therefore we have the precedent, you in the Chair, where the question on policies is ruled in one way, not to be out of order, and the questions of individuals, if there is any allegation of an individual being considered racist, to be out of order.
So there is a difference between policies and individuals, Madam Speaker, and those are consistent with your past rulings.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I thank all honourable members for their advice. I will take the point of order under advisement, but I would once again urge all members to exercise caution in the wording of their questions and their responses. In my personal opinion, there is no room in this House for strong language.
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Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member has not availed himself of some of the information related to the statement that he made in this House and in his question. When we talk of the whitefish fishery which basically is stationed in Gimli, over half of the people who are involved with that, I believe, are aboriginal, so when he makes that kind of a statement, he should try and get his facts straight before he makes that kind of a statement.
Madam Speaker, the other thing is that this system has been in place for a hundred years. We will now, with the study that is being undertaken, look to see whether we can come up with a system that is going to be sustainable over a period of a long time, so that those people involved in commercial fishery can make a reasonable living at it which many of them do not at this time.
So, Madam Speaker, this is not a problem that has developed in this last month and the last year. It has been there for a long time. If the member felt so strongly about who is doing what out there, when his people were government, why did they not change some of those things? I am prepared to change them now.
Health Care System
Kidney Dialysis Availability
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.
Earlier this morning, I found a somewhat interesting situation where we actually have dialysis patients who are being transported via taxi from the city of Winnipeg to other communities such as Morden. In fact, there is a contract between Unicity and our health organization to see this occur.
My question for the minister is, under what circumstances are we forcing patients to have to take a taxi to rural Manitoba?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would be happy to review the circumstances of the case to which the honourable member refers and provide a report to him. Suffice to say, however, requirement for dialysis has been growing very, very significantly year over year in Manitoba, and the government and the facilities that provide those services have been working very hard year after year to try to keep up with the very significantly growing demand.
Again, I would be happy to take the question as notice if the honourable member would give me more information.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, there are in fact a number of different situations in which people have been transported. In fact, there is a contract between Unicity Taxi and the health care.
My question is, if the minister finds out that what I have said is factual, will he then make the commitment to resolve this problem?
Mr. McCrae: Well, it may well turn out to be factual. The only reason for my caution is so many times in this House honourable members tend to bring information that could mostly be described as a figment of somebody's imagination, but I am not saying that in the case of the honourable member's question, the honourable member for Inkster.
I remind the honourable member that there are people living in various communities in Manitoba who, simply because you cannot have a unit in every community, have to travel sometimes significant distances to access these types of services. I remind the honourable member of that but, as I say, I would be happy to have a look at that situation.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, just to confirm then, will the minister then make it a high priority to look into if there is a need for an additional dialysis machine in the city of Winnipeg and, failing that, that there is better scheduling, quite possibly, and that might alleviate the problem in itself potentially?
Mr. McCrae: I think it is appropriate that the honourable member should attach high priority to this, Madam Speaker, and I do too.
First Nations Communities
Housing Shortages
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My questions are for the Premier.
Yesterday we asked this Premier to use his office to work with the federal government on solutions for the housing crisis at Pukatawagan, a crisis that regrettably is common to many other reserves. As MLA for Pukatawagan, I have been in contact with the federal government on this issue, and I want to ask whether he as Premier of all of Manitoba, including Pukatawagan, has contacted the federal government yesterday to raise his concerns.
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the point that I make in responding to the questions for the member for Flin Flon is that he has two opportunities: one is to come and grandstand in this Legislature with respect to matters--
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, Beauchesne is very clear that members should not be attributing motives, impugning the motives of other members. I think it is particularly offensive that the Premier would be doing this on a continual basis when all the member for Flin Flon is doing is speaking on behalf of his questions and asking a question in this House.
I would like to ask you not only to ask the minister to withdraw the comment but also to answer the question for the member for Flin Flon.
Madam Speaker: On the point of order, I will take the point of order under advisement, and, if necessary, report back to the House.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I find it ironic that the members opposite can say that calling something racist is not imputing motives but saying "grandstanding" is.
I do not accept the standards of the members opposite whatsoever. The point that I make, Madam Speaker, is that when the member understands that that issue is 100 percent under the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada, then if he really wants to get action on it, he ought to take his question and his actions to the Government of Canada, instead of trying to just be a grandstander here in this Legislature.
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Mr. Jennissen: My supplementary question, Madam Speaker, is, will the Premier assure this House that he and his ministers will work with all levels of government to resolve the housing crisis in Pukatawagan and other reserves with the same energy and enthusiasm they showed for the failed Winnipeg Jets/arena project?
Mr. Filmon: There is no question, Madam Speaker, that we will do that.
Madam Speaker, I refer the member for Flin Flon to a news release that was issued by the government news services on August 22 of this year, which indicated that our government had provided an additional $800,000 this year to lever a total of $3.2 million from CMHC and provide for, among other things, the repair and improvement of low-income housing units in rural and northern communities and to provide sewer and water hookups and plumbing for the communities of Pikwitonei and Nelson House.
Madam Speaker, the point that I make is that this government is sensitive to and concerned about the needs for housing in northern communities, whether they be in Northern Affairs communities or whether they be in the communities of the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada.
However, in the jurisdiction of the Government of Canada, only the Government of Canada can act. That is the point that I make.
Dwayne Archie Johnston
Parole Hearing
Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.
As the Minister of Justice is no doubt aware, Dwayne Archie Johnston, who was finally convicted of the rape and murder of Helen Betty Osborne over 16 years after the crime was committed, has been granted temporary absences and will now be eligible for parole in the near future.
I would like to ask the minister if she will add her voice to the hundreds of Manitobans who have signed a petition requesting the National Parole Board to reverse their decision to grant Mr. Johnston temporary day passes, and also ask the minister whether or not she will write to the Solicitor General opposing the early release.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, this issue has been raised to me.
I can tell the member that the issue of parole in this instance is a federal matter. However, I have given instructions to my department to look and see if there is some way in which we may have an influence or we may be able to add our voice.
Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, I just have one more question for the Minister of Justice.
I would like to ask the minister: Will she request intervener status at the next parole board hearing which will hear Mr. Johnston's case?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, as I said, I have directed my department to look at any methods which may be open to us to be involved in this process, which is a federal process.
I also have made representation to the federal government to examine the whole process of parole, in terms of any early release, and to make sure that perhaps additional information may be added and considered by those members of the parole board.
Health Care System
Nurse Practitioners
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question would be for the Minister of Health.
Yesterday I posed a question in terms of a potential role for nurse practitioners. I understand that in some American states, in particular the University of Washington actually provides for a certification process for a nurse practitioner.
Would this Minister of Health be prepared to look at expanding the role to look at the possibility of certification of a nurse practitioner in the province of Manitoba?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, just yesterday I had a good lengthy meeting with representatives of the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses. At that meeting were also delegations of nurses from the Grace General Hospital, as well as the Health Sciences Centre.
We had a good discussion about the potential role of nursing professionals in the future of our health care system, and even in the context of more recent activities surrounding emergency services, the role of nursing in Manitoba. I will take the honourable member's question as a suggestion for further study and to incorporate in our discussions as we look at the roles of all the various professionals in the system in the future.
Physician Resources
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health give some sort of indication as to an update on what he is aware of in terms of the number of doctors that are going to be leaving the province of Manitoba?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Prior to the recent revelations about some emergency physicians leaving Manitoba, some of whom, I understand, are being replaced or have been replaced, prior to that, and factoring out those numbers, and I do not know how many of the 42 doctors who walked off the job have decided to return to their jobs permanently, but prior to all of that, the information I had was that we were in the vicinity of a supply imbalance in Manitoba, whereas in the city of Winnipeg we have somewhat of an oversupply and in rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba, an underserviced situation. We are working with various agencies to address that imbalance.
It is not, in my view, the kind of oversupply in the city of Winnipeg that is alarming, except that we know that some of those physicians working in Winnipeg, we would like to find ways to persuade them to make their services available in underserviced areas of Manitoba where the consumers of health care services need their services.
Emergency Services
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health indicate the impact the emergency services shutdown from 10 to eight is going to have on doctors' abilities to be able to service their patients? To cite a specific example: a doctor who would have entrance rights, let us say, to Seven Oaks Hospital might not have entrance rights to the Health Sciences Centre, yet his patient would be obligated between 10 and eight to go to the Health Sciences Centre. Has he thought through the ramifications on that, and can he report on it?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we have done a lot of thinking about this, and certainly the one thing that emerges is that we are looking at an emergency services system city wide. We want the honourable member--and we hope that all the others working in the system will look at a city-wide system as opposed to a system composed of several facilities. Instead of facility based, we should talk about system-wide issues; instead of supply-based medicine, we should be talking about needs-based medicine.
The question the honourable member asks is a legitimate one and requires an answer. I will assist not only in getting one, but making sure that there is one, one that is satisfactory and acceptable to the consumers of health services in Winnipeg.
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Aboriginal Health Care
Government Initiatives
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, no one who has had the opportunity to read the Postl report can fail to be struck by the astounding inequities between the health of Manitoba's aboriginal children and those of other people in the province of Manitoba.
I quote from page 27 of the Postl report where it says, regarding treaty Status children: They are less healthy on virtually every count, more at risk for ill health than any other children in Manitoba.
Can the minister today, after seven years of Tory government and two and a half years at the helm of health care reform, specifically outline for us what actions this government has taken to deal with aboriginal communities and the severe problems in this province of aboriginal children's health?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): The honourable member's question goes to the very foundation of what it is that we need to address in a reformed health system in this whole country. Manitoba, as the keystone province and as the province with a high representation of aboriginal people in it, is a good place for that question to be asked.
Dr. Postl and his committee were certainly correct in identifying aboriginal issues and, as part of our health reform strategy, Madam Speaker, we share that identification. We look at youth generally with a particular emphasis on aboriginal youth. We look at seniors. We look at women's health issues and, of course, issues related to the general population.
Respiratory problems regarding aboriginal children are a serious issue, and there are things that can be done and should be done and will be done. I can only repeat some of the things, however, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has said but join him and others in suggesting that if there is an indictment in our country to be issued, it has to do with 150 years of not dealing with the problem raised by the honourable member. I include in that the government that his colleagues were part of and certainly federal governments, and unfortunately too some aboriginal leadership has failed in this regard as well, Madam Speaker, and we all have work to do together. I am saying that if we do not get on with that job we will have a system-wide problem that will escalate.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.
NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS
Condolences--Betty Bilyk
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I wonder if I could have leave, Madam Speaker, for a nonpolitical statement.
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I rise today to acknowledge and mourn the passing early this morning of Betty Bilyk. As my personal secretary for over 10 years, Betty was known to I think almost everyone in this building. Although she was a political appointee, she was I think loved and admired by everyone in the building whether they be civil servants or political appointees of all parties. Betty, with her cheerful and friendly manner, was a favourite I think with both civil servants and all who entered this building. I know that she cared for many and cared about everyone, and she will certainly be missed.
I know all members will want to join with me in extending our condolences to her son David and his wife Colleen, her son John, and her husband Ed.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yes, leave for a nonpolitical statement.
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the official opposition have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I want to join with the Premier in our condolences, too, in the passing of Betty Bilyk this morning. She is a person whom we have worked with for years in the Legislative Building, as the Premier has indicated.
I was talking to Jeannette this morning who works in our office, and she said she was the most positive person in the whole building. I know that I had worked with her on many occasions, to have meetings with the Premier, in her capacity as secretary to the Premier. I know that must be a very demanding job with members of the public and members of the various groups that meet with the Premier on a continual basis in that office. She always worked with other public employees and with other members of the public with dignity and class, and our condolences do go to the family at this time of mourning.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, if I may have leave to make a nonpolitical statement.
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I too would like to join both the Premier and the Leader of the official opposition in extending our condolences to the family members and so forth of Betty Bilyk.
You know, it is one of the things that we never really appreciate as often as we would like to, the support staff that we have and no one more than the individuals who answer the telephones on our behalf. They make sure that we are there for our appointments and so forth, and just to give tribute and offer condolences to the family. Thank you.
MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
Aboriginal Communities' Problems
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I move
THAT under Rule 27.(1) that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the failure of both the federal and provincial governments to deal with the very serious problems facing aboriginal communities, from inadequate housing and poor health care to the lack of action on natural resources and economic development issues.
This motion is being seconded by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson).
Motion presented.
Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, in regard to the urgency of this debate, I want to emphasize, as has been pointed out previously before, that the Estimates have now been completed and passed. There are no major pieces of legislation designed to deal with aboriginal issues, and we cannot use grievances at this time. As such, there are no other opportunities to debate these matters before the Chamber.
I want to also say, Madam Speaker, that we, the 57 members of this Legislature, this Assembly here, are elected by the people in our constituencies, and throughout our term, issues are brought before us in person, by delegations of people, by correspondence and so on, and it is up to us, the members who have been elected into office, to bring those issues to government and to try to get the government to address those very serious issues.
Madam Speaker, I also want to emphasize that whenever we ask questions from this side, whenever we raise issues from this side, that does not mean we are grandstanding. It does not mean that we are bad people. It simply means that we are trying to represent the constituents who have elected us to this office.
The urgency of these matters now before us, Madam Speaker, 70 homeless residents--[interjection]
Madam Speaker: Order, please. This is a very important matter and the honourable member for The Pas was recognized to speak to the urgency of the matter.
Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, as we sit here today, 70 homeless residents of Pukatawagan are in Winnipeg and, in fact, were at the Legislature yesterday asking for assistance from whomever would listen to them.
Homelessness is becoming a major problem on every reserve. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), just prior to the closing of Question Period, dealt a little bit about the health conditions. He agrees that the conditions are deplorable and that something should be done about it.
Madam Speaker, today at the Legislature we also have fishermen from Lake Winnipeg asking for help. They are asking for changes to the quota system so that they can also make a living just like everybody else. In the meantime, they are today donating 7,000 pounds of whitefish to Winnipeg Harvest, the fish that they could not sell.
Madam Speaker, the failure of either level of government to deal with these and other issues--housing, high unemployment, lack of economic development opportunties, poor state of health, lack of sewer and water, lack of natural resources co-management agreements--I think it is our responsibility, whether these people are aboriginal, whether they are Status or non-Status, whether they live in Winnipeg or up north, I submit to you that this government has some responsibility. This government failed to act on aboriginal issues arising from the AJI. They have failed to work in partnership on issues with aboriginal people such as I mentioned, co-management.
Madam Speaker, in closing, governments cannot continue to simply ignore these issues and hope they will go away. They are not going to go away, instead they will get worse. The time for action and commitment is now. Thank you.
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Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I do not think there is anyone in this Chamber, and I believe I know all members reasonably well, who would want to see any human being live in substandard conditions, whether it is housing, whether it is lack of services, whether it is health care or anything else.
The question, however, is, who has the responsibility? In this country we have a lot of constitutional responsibility divisions between provinces and the federal government. We have a very complex method of paying for those services that are delivered through that constitutional mechanism. We have heard on a number of occasions the fact that over $200 million just in this budget year alone will be withdrawn by the federal government from transfer payments to the province of Manitoba, which severely limits our ability to deliver programs to all of Manitoba.
Madam Speaker, it is a serious issue and one with which I significantly sympathize, but the fact of the matter is the responsibility, as outlined by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) yesterday and again today, lies with the federal government. We could have an urgent debate this afternoon and for the next hour and a half or so debate the issue but, at the end of the day, what would be accomplished? We do not have the jurisdiction. The relationship between First Nations is with the federal government. It is a relationship constitutionally. It is a relationship on a fiduciary basis. It is a relationship on a provision-for-service basis.
So whether we debate it in here this afternoon will not make much difference in the overall scheme of things. It may serve to salve the conscience of some of us in this House, but if we really wanted to make a difference we would spend the next hour and a half going down to our offices and telephoning Ottawa and talking to the Minister of Urban Affairs, Madam Speaker, to phone the Minister of Indian Affairs to deal with the issues that are related to Pukatawagan as raised in this House by members opposite or raised by members in this House about other First Nations communities. If we really wanted to see something happen, if we really wanted to help those people, then that is what we would do, not grandstand in this House but we would get on the phone, talk to Ottawa. They have the responsibility.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. First, I would like to inform the House that I did receive the notice required under our subrule 27.(1) and I would like to thank all honourable members for their advice as to whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) should be debated today.
I had some question as to whether or not the motion of the honourable member for The Pas discusses only one matter which is what House Rule 27 prescribes. I am satisfied now that the operative part of the motion does deal with one matter, that is the problems faced by aboriginal communities, in particular, housing and health care.
In order for a matter of urgent public importance to proceed to debate, two conditions must be met; first, the subject matter must be so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow a debate to be held early enough and, second, it must be shown that the public interests will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention.
There do not appear to be other opportunities for this matter to be debated in the near future. When we look what is on the Order Paper, the first requirement for a debate has been met. The second condition is, in essence, does the public interest demand that discussion take place immediately. I realize this is a very serious issue which particularly affects northern Manitobans and I understand that it is one which needs to be addressed. However, it is not an emergency which has just arisen nor will it be remedied by setting aside this Assembly's business for today to allow for an emergency debate.
Again, I acknowledge that the subject is a very important one. However, I must rule that the motion does not meet the criteria set out in our rules and in Beauchesne.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I challenge your ruling.
Voice Vote
Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged.
The question before the House is, shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained?
All those in favour of the motion, please say yea.
Some Honourable Members: Yea.
Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay.
Some Honourable Members: Nay.
Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it.
Formal Vote
Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members.
The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained.
Division
A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows:
Yeas
Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, McAlpine, McCrae, McIntosh, Mitchelson, Newman, Pallister, Penner, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, Stefanson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey.
Nays
Ashton, Barrett, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Friesen, Hickes, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lathlin, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthers, Wowchuk.
Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 27, Nays 23.
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Yes, Madam Speaker, I was paired with the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).
Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained.
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NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS
Response to Expressions of Concern
Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Kowalski: In September of '93, when I left the Winnipeg police force on a leave of absence, one thing I knew I was going to miss was the camaraderie that came from working with a group of people under difficult situations. This bond that developed continued on, not only into our business life but into our personal lives, and when we had crises in the family, financial crises, we helped each other out.
Recently, my family has had to face a challenge to my wife's health, and many members of this House have expressed their concern, offers of assistance, best wishes, get well cards and flowers, and it shows that the members of this House are not only honourable but kind. On behalf of my wife and my family, I thank all the members for their expressions. Thank you very much.
Condolences--Chief Merrick,
Long Plain First Nation
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Rupertsland have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, it is with deep regret that I announce the passing of one of our respected elders in the First Nations community. His name was Angus Merrick from the Long Plain First Nation in the constituency of the honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Pallister).
I would like to extend my sincere condolences on behalf of myself and my colleagues on this side of the House to the family and to the leadership of the Long Plain First Nation.
Mr. Merrick was a recipient of the Order of Canada, and we were truly very proud of him. He provided a lot of direction, a lot of guidance, to many of the young leadership in the First Nations community.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to express those sincere condolences to the many members of his family and also to the leadership of this community for which he provided very, very valuable leadership and guidance and direction over the years. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Government Services have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Hon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): It is also with regret and condolences to the family that I rise in sympathy for the passing of our friend Chief Merrick, and I thank the member for his kind comments.
Chief Merrick was a good friend of our family's. My great-grandfather whom the chief told me about, told me stories of, someone whom I never met, developed a close relationship, and as a consequence, I guess, of our family living just four miles from the Long Plain Reserve, we had regular contact.
The chief was someone who put aside the pettiness and the differences that too often come between people and tried to build bridges between people. He educated and taught not only the people of his own band but people of the community around Portage la Prairie and this province the beautiful things about his culture and his history. He worked to make sure that those things were not used to draw people apart but instead to bring them together.
I had the great privilege of speaking and meeting with the chief just some months ago as a consequence of putting his name forward for the Order of Canada, and I am only sorry that he could not be with us for the official presentation of it in November, but I know all members of this House join together in expressing sympathy to his family, to his community, but at the same time celebrating a life well lived.
Speaker's Rulings
Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House.
I took under advisement during Private Members' Business on Monday, September 25, a point of order raised by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) about whether the remarks of the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) contravened the sub-judice convention. The remarks in question were made in debate on the amendment to private members' Resolution 11.
Beauchesne's contains a number of references to the sub-judice convention. It notes that generally the convention provides that members should refrain from discussing matters which are before the courts in order to protect an accused person or other party in a court action from suffering any prejudicial effect from public discussion on the issue.
However, Speaker Rocan noted in an April 1992 ruling the sub-judice convention is a voluntary restraint and is a convention, not a rule. Citation 511 of Beauchesne's in referring to sub judice reads, "The freedom of speech accorded to Members of Parliament is a fundamental right without which they would be hampered in the performance of their duties. The Speaker should interfere with that freedom of speech only in exceptional cases where it is clear that to do otherwise could be harmful to specific individuals."
I have reviewed with care the comments of the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) on Resolution 11 and am ruling his remarks did not breach the sub-judice convention. His speech, in my opinion, dealt with matters in a general way and did not address details of a case.
* * *
Madam Speaker: I took under advisement on October 2, during Question Period, a point of order raised by the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). In the point of order, the member claimed that comments of the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) in answering a question were personal attacks and were not related to the question.
I believe the words spoken by the minister to which objection was made were, and I quote: "So the member's research is, as usual, done simply through a newspaper article, Madam Speaker, and through a quote that she read, which I am not sure if it was in context at all."
The honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) did not have a point of order in terms of the personal charge, but I would agree that the minister's comments were not related to the question.
I wish to remind all ministers that they should comply with not only the letter but the spirit of Beauchesne's Citations 408(2) and 417, that is, answers should be short, they should not incite debate and they should directly deal with the immediately preceding question.
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