ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Emergency Physicians' Strike
Government Action
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister.
Madam Speaker, we asked questions last spring dealing with the whole issue of doctor shortages in rural Manitoba and the problems with specialists here in the province of Manitoba. Many of us are now hearing about the great concern the public has about the situation at our emergency wards in our community hospitals.
I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact our Health critic wrote on September 1 and called on the government to take action to prevent this withdrawal of services--it suggested ideas such as appointing a mediator--I would like to ask the government what action it has taken and why did it not take this action before the withdrawal took place.
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for his question. I have not seen the letter that the Health critic wrote, but I can say that the matter, of course, has been in the hands of a conciliator since some time in August and that this morning a letter was sent by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), who is out of the province at a Health ministers' meeting, I believe, in British Columbia. A letter was sent to both parties urging them to go back to the table to ensure that they do everything possible to achieve a resolution to the strike.
Mr. Doer: In the last withdrawal of services, there was a mediator appointed by the government, who, of course, is different than a conciliator.
Madam Speaker, when the government was faced with the withdrawal of services and a strike at the sugar beet plant, the Minister of Labour was involved. Various ministers of the government were involved, trying to bring the parties together to show some leadership on behalf of the people who were directly affected by this strike.
I would like to ask the Premier, why has this government not shown the same kind of leadership and resolve at the ministerial level to get this dispute settled and get this withdrawal of services over, so that patients in Manitoba and in Winnipeg who are affected can have the confidence in their emergency services in their community hospitals, Madam Speaker?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, of course, in any work stoppage, there is an onus on the part of both parties to work and to address the issue. The preferred position of the government is that the parties of the dispute resolve the dispute, and we are anxious to see them go back to the table. I believe that the letter does indicate that the conciliator, Mr. Chapman, can act as a mediator, that the government, I believe, is prepared to see him be the mediator, if that is acceptable to both sides, and that the mediation process begin as quickly as possible.
Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I recall the former Minister of Labour bringing both parties in the dispute on sugar beets into his office, taking a high-profile leadership approach to try to get that dispute resolved.
I would like to ask the Premier whether he has met with the two sides, whether his Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has met with the two sides, whether his Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews) has taken any action at all. Has there been any leadership on behalf of this government? Because many people are quite worried that this may be a, quote, experiment to see how we can deal with the reduction in emergency services, rather than the government taking a leadership role to get this issue resolved on behalf of the people who are directly affected, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, there is no experiment. The decision to withdraw services was that of the doctors involved. I will indicate that these are the same doctors who, just a matter of a couple of years ago, were given a 26 percent increase in their salaries, in their compensation, and are now asking for a 15 percent additional increase. Clearly, it is they who have triggered the work stoppage and they who are the aggressors in this situation in withdrawing their services and denying the people of Winnipeg and Manitoba their services.
We are not embarked on any experiment whatsoever. Whether or not we learn anything from this work stoppage, obviously we will by virtue of the manner in which we have had to cover for the services, but that is a matter for another time.
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Winnipeg Jets
Operating Losses
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, with a new question to the Premier, the Premier will recall that he signed an operating-loss agreement with the Winnipeg Jets in 1991. The Premier will also recall that over a period of time we were able to determine that the potential losses in that agreement that he had signed was later revealed by the Provincial Auditor to be potentially $43.5 million.
During the election campaign, both he and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) promised to cancel that agreement by May 1, 1995. Unfortunately, after the election campaign, another story is unfolding in our community.
I would like to ask the Premier, Madam Speaker, how much money is the provincial government responsible for in the operating-loss agreement for this season, and how much is he accountable for in terms of the agreement that he signed in 1991?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as has been indicated many times to the Leader of the Opposition--this obviously is not a new issue; it is not even a new question. It is an issue that the Leader of the Opposition continues to regurgitate. The matter has been well documented. It has been well discussed, has been reviewed by the Provincial Auditor.
The fact of the matter is during the period of time that we have been in the midst of the loss agreement, the province's share of losses has been something in the range of about $10 million to date. It is anticipated that the province's share of the losses for the forthcoming year will be somewhere in the range of about $8.5 million, which would bring us to a total, I believe, of $18.8 million, and during that period of time the province's direct income--direct income from the operation of the Winnipeg Jets in Winnipeg is expected to be $27 million, a net benefit of some almost $9 million to the taxpayers of Manitoba.
That is the circumstance. It has been well documented and it has been reviewed by many authorities, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Doer: I guess if you can have a decrease in crime with an increase in lotteries, you can make money out of losing a hockey team in terms of its profit and loss figures.
Madam Speaker, during the election and specifically during the CBC debate, the Premier (Mr. Filmon), along with the Minister of Finance, had continually said, this agreement expires May 1, 1995; we will not be putting more than $10 million into a new arena and this agreement is cancelled.
The Premier went on further to say that the NDP was wrong to save money by cancelling the operating-loss agreement because only $1.8 million has been put into the budget for the '95-96 fiscal year to cover the operating losses of the team because the agreement is going to expire.
Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, where is the government going to get the money that the Premier indicated would be necessary? Where is it coming from? Is it coming from health care? Is it coming from education? What public services will be affected by the Premier not keeping his word in terms of cancelling the operating-loss agreement with the Winnipeg Jets?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, as the Premier outlined, our requirement estimate for the period June 1995 to June 1996 is just over $8 million. That has an impact of approximately $6 million on our fiscal budget for 1995-96. We do have some capacity to handle a good portion of that, about half of that, within our Urban Economic Development Initiative line. That has not been allocated, the same line that we utilized last year to support the economic side of having the Winnipeg Jets here in Manitoba.
I want to remind the Leader of the Opposition that besides the direct tax revenue that flows to our government as outlined by the Premier, because of the inability to find a long-term solution to keep the Jets in Manitoba, they will be sold as quickly as possible. The two levels of government, the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba, will receive 36 percent of those proceeds, some $30 million, so I would anticipate that before our fiscal year is over, our share of those proceeds will be allocated to our government, and those will be in the vicinity on a net basis of at least $10 million.
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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the provincial government had told us two years ago that the losses would be cancelled on June 30, 1994. Then they told us again in the election campaign--in fact, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) himself told the public of Manitoba, I believe in the first week of March, that the agreement is dead. The agreement with the Jets expires. They no longer will be on the life-support system from the provincial government. Of course, that was a pre-election promise from the Minister of Finance and from the Premier, and, unfortunately, after the election we saw all those promises go out the window in terms of what action they would take.
I would like to ask the First Minister, with all the crisis we see in health care, with all the pressure that is being placed on all our resources in health care, can the Premier assure us that we are not going to have underspending in health care and underspending in education as we saw last year of some $23 million and $10 million respectfully? Will we get our guarantee that we are not going to see an underspending in those vital human resources, so the Premier can break his word on the loss agreement from the Winnipeg Jets?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member should know, as a former member of cabinet in a government of Manitoba, that there is always a provision in place for spending lapses in departments throughout government, and, in fact, spending lapses occur as part of the operations of government consistently and have for decades.
In fact, I know that during the time of the Pawley administration, of which he was a member, there were lapses in spending in health care that I believe were as much as $90 million in a year. In fact, they instituted the policy of putting lapses in as part of the budget process.
That is because the spending in areas like health and education are not under the direct control of the bureaucracy or the ministers of government. They are, in fact, allocated to third parties such as hospital boards and hospital administrations and, therefore, there is not an ability to exactly keep everything to the nickel. In fact, in many cases, there are millions of dollars that do not get taken up based on the way in which hospitals are administered. So, as a consequence, I would say to him that that is something that has happened for decades and will continue to happen year after year because of the way in which the budget process works. He knows that as well as I do.
What I can tell him is that the money that has been allocated for expenditure in health care is there for that purpose, and the care of the patient is first and foremost in the minds of government when it makes its decisions and its allocations.
Emergency Physicians' Strike
Government Action
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, on June 20 of this year, the head of the emergency department at the Health Sciences Centre wrote the Deputy Minister of Health indicating that emergency services were in crisis at the Health Sciences Centre and at St. Boniface Hospital, and the government chose to do nothing. On September 1 we wrote asking the government to do something about emergency services and the government did nothing. We are now two weeks into a strike, and the government this morning has indicated that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has written a letter asking the sides to get together.
Madam Speaker, will the minister and will the First Minister today live up to his promise during the election campaign to protect health care and indicate to Manitobans specifically what advice they are giving to the conciliator and/or mediator, what the position is and whether or not mediation will be undertaken to try to resolve this strike before the situation gets worse?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae).
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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I will table the letter that I referred to from the head of health at the Health Sciences Centre to the Deputy Minister of Health four months ago, and no action was taken.
My question for the Premier, Madam Speaker, who was available to deal with the Jets, who had a Finance minister available to deal with the Jets situation but apparently will not deal with the strike situation--
Madam Speaker: Question, please.
Mr. Chomiak: What will this government do to try to resolve the strike which is now deteriorating according to a doctor at the St. Boniface Hospital and by all indications is getting worse? What action will this government take?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as I have already said in response to exactly the same question by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), a letter has gone out to the parties involved in the dispute by the Minister of Health this morning urging them back to the table and offering the appointment of a mediator with certain conditions and terms that are designed to try and get an early solution to the problem.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the Premier: Will the Premier indicate what the government strategy is to deal with emergency doctors in light of the fact that this letter from the head of emergency services at Health Sciences Centre indicates the problem is the government's $19-million cutback at Health Sciences Centre and the $10-million cutback at St. Boniface that is resulting in the difficulties? What will this government do to resolve the crisis which is going to also result in the loss of up to a quarter of the emergency doctors from Health Sciences Centre?
Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, this government has been receptive to and I think concerned about the circumstances of the emergency doctors and went so far as a couple of years ago to give these very same doctors who are now out on strike a 26 percent increase in their salaries to bring them into a position in which they are competitive with emergency physicians in other provinces. The government has indicated not only its willingness but its desire to ensure that we do everything possible, everything reasonable to try and bring an end to this dispute.
I do not believe that a 15 percent demand coupled on top of a 26 percent increase two years ago is reasonable. If the opposition critic believes that, then he will have to justify that to the public.
Immigration Agreement
Meeting Schedule
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): My questions are for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer).
Given that the total number of immigrants and refugees arriving in Manitoba has declined by nearly 50 percent since 1990 and the number of immigrants coming to this province is down 16.5 percent for the first five months of 1995, and given that the English-second-language cuts will further this decline, why has this minister and this minister's government not met with the federal government since May to finalize an immigration agreement?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Officials from my department met last week with officials from the federal government to deal with the question of immigration and an immigration agreement for Manitoba. Also, I will be meeting with the federal minister in the near future. In the meantime, we have put a number of proposals forward for the federal government, all of which they have rejected at this time, to bring more immigrants to Manitoba. As a government, we will continue to pursue the federal government for an immigration agreement and to see that some of these projects will be accepted in the near future.
ESL Programs
Government Commitment
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): What action has this government taken to keep the same level of English-second-language programs in Manitoba, given your election promises on this issue?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I can indicate to my honourable friend that the provincial contribution for language training has remained constant within the province of Manitoba, and the federal government has consistently been downsizing the amount of their budget contribution both from the program for language instruction for newcomers and also from the labour market language training fund. We have registered our concerns with the federal government, both the Department of Immigration and the Department of Human Resources. There is a need out there for language training. We will continue to meet our commitment, and we will continue to urge the federal government to put more resources into that area.
Mr. Hickes: How does this government plan to attract immigrants when it allows head taxes to be implemented and cuts in the English-second-language programs to be made, such as cuts to school divisions for ESL?
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Mr. Gilleshammer: We covered this in considerable detail in Estimates, and I would have thought by now that my honourable friend would have a better understanding of it. The changes that he references are changes made by the federal government. The imposition of the head tax is by the federal government, and I would ask him to maybe urge his friends in the Liberal caucus as well as the members of Parliament here from the city of Winnipeg to rethink some of their decisions as far as immigration is concerned.
Emergency Physicians' Strike
Government Action
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier.
Emergency services that are offered through our hospitals, Manitobans believe, are absolutely essential services. If you have a cardiac arrest or any emergency requirement, you like to believe that you can go into a hospital and be serviced and be given that attention that is necessary.
My question to the Premier is very concise and to the point. Has the government considered forcing emergency room doctors back to work?
Hon. Leonard Derkach (Acting Minister of Health): On behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), I will take that question as notice.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), at what point in time will the Premier of this province deal with the issue of emergency services to all Manitobans and consider back-to-work legislation?
Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, I will take that question, as well, as notice for the Minister of Health.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, also, can the Premier indicate whether or not he has even offered or the Minister of Health has even offered the concept of binding arbitration in order to try to put this emergency strike to rest?
Mr. Derkach: I will take that question, as well, as notice for the Minister of Health.
Domestic Violence Review Committee
Meeting Request
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister responsible for the Status of Women.
I understand that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women, also the Minister of Justice, has just returned from Beijing where the main focuses of discussion were violence against women and women's economic development.
I applaud the minister's global initiative but ask if she will now act locally by convening the Domestic Violence Review committee, which I understand has not met for two years, and ask this group to discuss the Manitoba situation with regard to violence against women.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, I was very pleased on behalf of our province to attend the conference in Beijing. The federal government extended the invitation, and I am very pleased to tell the people of the province of Manitoba how I was able to participate fully, particularly in areas which fall to provincial jurisdiction, such as areas of education and literacy and the administration of justice.
Madam Speaker, the committee to which the member has referred has given a great deal of advice over time, particularly when this government took the initiative to set up the Domestic Violence Court. I will be meeting with that group, certainly, as an agenda is developed for that.
Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, has the minister discussed the Flin Flon Crisis Centre and the impact of its closing on the Flin Flon community with the Violence Review committee?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, our commitment to violence against women is second to none across the country. We have worked very diligently to ensure that all women in the province of Manitoba have the ability for safe, secure protection in times of need.
We are continually working and discussing and dialoguing with the northern part of our province including Flin Flon and the crisis centre in Flin Flon to see how we can come around the issues of ensuring that there are shared and co-ordinated services between The Pas and Flin Flon and some of our remote areas so that women indeed can be protected and served right throughout our province.
Ms. McGifford: If the mission of the Domestic Violence Review advisory committee is to give service providers the opportunity to give advice, I ask the Minister responsible for the Status of Women if she would please meet with this committee and discuss the Flin Flon Crisis Centre and its closing with them as soon as possible.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, as my colleague the Minister of Family Services has just answered, our support to crisis shelters across this province is a very good record. I know that the Minister of Family Services has regular contact with that particular area and certainly where there are issues to be dealt with, I believe that they will be.
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Gambling
Information Release
Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the issue of gambling has been one that has been discussed by many Manitobans, and the continuing difficulties Manitobans are having in obtaining information is no clearer than the report that was released by the minister tabled in the House today along with the annual report from 1993-94.
Since we are soon going to be into a committee hearing on lotteries for the first time in two years, I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries (Mr. Stefanson) if he could provide background information to the 38 pages out of the 70 pages of this report that attempts to defend a drastic increase in gambling that has taken place. In particular, since the report cites studies from Pittsburgh, Texas, South Dakota and the U.S. Senate, will he release the report of the KPMG and Ernst & Young report which was done by the Lotteries commission here in Manitoba and was used as justification by this report?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I am not entirely clear where the member for Thompson is coming from. They ask for more information, they get provided with more information, significantly more information in the annual report of Lotteries, information released in terms of the first follow-up study on problem gambling in all of Canada by Dr. Volberg, the next quarterly report, information on the community-by-community breakdown. We provided significant information in the course of the last several days. As he himself suggested, we are going to committee, I believe on September 28, it has been agreed to. I look forward to providing him with significantly more information at that committee.
Social Costs
Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I am coming from Thompson, which is losing $2.4 million from the community from lotteries revenue, but--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, with his supplementary question.
Mr. Ashton: I would like to ask as a supplementary whether it is government policy as is stated in this report that an increase in gambling can lead to a reduction in crime, one of the many studies from the United States cited by the Lotteries commission and this minister of the benefits from lotteries.
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the member suggests he is coming from Thompson and he is concerned about the allocation. I would like to think that the people of Thompson recognize this money is going to all of the priority needs of government from health care and education to economic development and to eliminating the deficit, something that that party has difficulty identifying with, but I believe the people of Thompson support those kinds of directions.
Again, in terms of the information in this annual report, significant information in terms of studies done all across North America, studies done here in Manitoba, I look forward to sharing information and discussing them when we are at committee.
Information Release
Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): As a final supplementary, if the minister cannot justify the statements in terms of crime, will the minister at least release the report by KPMG and Ernst & Young which was conducted by the Lotteries commission, and release any information that contradicts the only independent study that was done by University of Winnipeg economists that points very clearly to problems in Manitoba because of the dramatic increase in gambling that has taken place under this government's tenure?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): I think many would question the member's reference to an independent study, but in terms of the specifics about the KPMG study, I am looking at the opportunity to release that. I expect that we will be able to release that as well, along with all of the information we have provided in the last weeks and the continued effort to provide as much information, not so much for members opposite but for all Manitobans to clearly understand all of the issues, all of the ramifications.
We do currently have the Desjardins committee doing a review of gaming in Manitoba, and we expect that report within the next few months.
Winnipeg Jets
Funding
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, all through the spring and summer this government said that its only role in the Jets fiasco was to build an arena. Yet in June this Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) advanced a $5 million secret payment to Thompson Dorfman Sweatman, not revealed at the time, as the down payment on the hockey team. Surely the need to pay the $5 million was an indication that while the flesh might have been willing, the spirit was pretty weak.
My question to the Finance minister is why did the Minister of Finance break the word of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in terms of an involvement in buying a hockey team? Why did you break your word?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, there was no breaking of any word and there were no secret agreements or individuals who knew that the first time--individuals know that the first time that a deposit was made that the government provided some of that on the basis that that deposit is fully refundable and we expect it to be fully refundable with interest. So there was no risk to the Province of Manitoba. It was a means of assisting with the cash flow to meet the deposit requirement. That and only that money is fully refundable, will be coming back to the Province of Manitoba, and I expect it to come back with interest and I expect that to happen very shortly.
Interim Operating Agreement
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): My supplementary, Madam Speaker, is to ask the minister to cite the clauses in the agreement which might give substance to his, I think, forlorn hope that there will be any interest returned on that payment. It is very clear from the interim operating agreement that the interest is not returnable in the case of default by the proposed purchasers.
What is the clause that gives you hope, Mr. Minister, that this interest will come back?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Well, the member for Crescentwood refers to forlorn hope, Madam Speaker. We will see what the final outcome is on this.
We have had discussions and negotiations with the current majority owners of the Winnipeg Jets Hockey team, and we do expect not only that that money will be refunded as is supposed to happen but that it will in fact be refunded with interest. I expect that to happen, as I have already indicated to this House, very shortly.
Information Release
Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister advise the House how much money has been paid to the various private sector volunteers such as Mr. Sweatman, Mr. Osler and the company of fine people who helped to put this fiasco together? Will the minister release in chapter and verse the specifics of the payments to those individuals?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Again, if the member for Crescentwood has paid any attention to my comments or the comments of our government on that whole issue, Madam Speaker--and it appears he has not--we have indicated that there will be a full accounting and disclosure of all of the money, not only the money provided by the Province of Manitoba, the money provided by the City of Winnipeg, the money provided by the federal government, the money provided by the private investors. Again, that is being worked on right now by the Spirit of Manitoba. We expect that to be released very shortly along with ultimately an audit by independent auditors.
Again, as I have indicated, and I hope he noticed, Madam Speaker, we do expect our own Provincial Auditor to play a role in terms of co-operating with the City of Winnipeg auditor and doing an audit of various expenditures that were incurred by the Spirit of Manitoba and MEC.
Public Beaches
Safety Standards
Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.
During the summer of 1995, the lives of many Manitoban families were shattered. Simultaneously, our province's reputation for beach safety was tarnished as Manitoba experienced a dramatic increase in the number of drownings at our provincial parks. Despite a myriad of calls for action from a wide range of concerned citizens, this government continues to ignore the life-threatening situations at our public beaches.
In the light of the public concern for improved beach safety, has this minister launched a review of the safety standards and procedures currently in place at our provincial beaches with the goal of making our province's beaches safe again and saving the lives of citizens in the future?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, will the minister then pledge to reinstate the Manitoba beach patrol program in order to demonstrate this government's concern for human loss as opposed to its overriding fixation on budgetary considerations?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, let me first of all express, I think everybody has regretted the unfortunate and tragic deaths that have taken place, some of them I think needlessly, and I think we all feel bad about that.
Subsequent to that, I have met with various councils and groups and got petitions presented to me. I have also had a discussion with the Chief Medical Examiner of the province who will be arranging meetings between the RCMP, various community organizations, councils, my department. These meetings will be taking place very shortly. We will discuss and look at options by which we can improve the safety of Manitobans at the beaches.
Mr. Struthers: Will the minister then bring forth legislation providing protection from liability concerns regarding the beach patrol program?
Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, once these meetings have concluded, we will be looking at a variety of recommendations that I hope will come out of that, and at that time the government will decide what course of action will have to be taken.
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Crow Benefit Elimination
Adjustment Fund
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, since we first heard the announcement of the disbandment of the Crow benefit, we asked many times that this government take a strong stand to ensure that Manitoba farmers were not shortchanged. Unfortunately, this has not happened, and we see that the program is in disarray. Deadlines are being extended and farmers are now picking up the costs.
Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us what steps he has been taking to ensure that there are not further delays and Manitoba farmers will get their fair share of the money, since they are now paying the higher freight bills but not having any of the assistance promised by the federal government?
Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, the honourable member will recall that last April we convened a lengthy meeting here in the Legislative Building. This session was still in session, and we put forward, together with the main organizations involved in agriculture, in fact all of the agriculture organizations, Manitoba Pool and some 16 commodity groups, we put forward a Manitoba position, a Manitoba position that regrettably the federal government did not follow that would have resolved many of these issues.
I really take no great pleasure in reminding her that she failed to affix her signature in support for that Manitoba position at that time, which would have circumvented many of the difficulties that the federal government now has.
But it is a federal government program. It is a federal government responsibility for its delivery. I have added my voice to the support for extension of deadlines. I certainly add my voice to other problems that there are, including the small acreage payments. There is no reason why the program cannot accommodate 50 acres or less if they are, in fact, in cereal grain production, Madam Speaker.
Ms. Wowchuk: I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will tell us whether or not he has also pressured the federal government to put in place some guidelines to avoid the problems that we see between renters and landowners at this time.
There are no guidelines in place. Renters and landowners are not coming to an agreement, and there is no protection for the renters who are the ones paying the higher freight rate. Will the minister tell us whether he has asked the federal government for guidelines there?
Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, I anticipated that problem; so did Manitoba Pool; so did Manitoba's major farm organization, the Keystone Agriculture Producers organization. That is why Manitoba suggested a very simple system. Go by the wheat permit which every farmer has and there would be no issue about it, but, again, the member for Swan River refused to support that position--refused to support that position, and now we have a complicated system of arbitration, and, yes, it is going to cause undue delay and cost.
I am particularly disturbed, Madam Speaker, that some of these monies, Canadian taxpayers' money that was meant to help Canadian farmers and Manitoba farmers is going to Europe, going to France, going to Italy, going to Germany. Surely that is not where Canadian taxpayers' money should be going, but she supported that kind of position when it was introduced by the federal government.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister to correct the record. We have always stood up for farmers and it is--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member for Swan River, this is not a time for debate or rebuttal. The honourable member for Swan River, to pose her final supplementary question.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if he would correct the record and show clearly that it has been the New Democrats who have always stood up for small farmers, and will he make a clear statement that he is going to stand up for small farmers and put it in writing that it is small farmers that he supports and that funds will be going to the small farmers where they should be going instead of being shortchanged as they are by the federal government and by lack of action from this Minister of Agriculture?
Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, the record is clear, as I indicated in my response to the first question. Last April, we brought together a farm coalition representing Manitoba farm interests, agriculture interests.
It had very straightforward recommendations to make to the federal government. They included payment being made to the permit holder, not to the landholder which would have avoided all of that, and it was a position supported by everybody, including at that time as yet unelected and proven to be a nonelectable Liberal representative on that occasion, the candidate who ran against my good friend and colleague the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), but even the Liberal Party supported Manitoba farm organizations in that request which would have meant that no taxpayers' money had left Manitoba and gone to foreign parts.
It would have avoided entirely the argument of small or big farmer. All agricultural land would have been treated equally and would have been in keeping with what Manitoba Pool and all farm organizations asked for.
Madam Speaker, I do not want to unnecessarily start a dispute with her but she refused on behalf of the New Democrats to support that position. She refused to support that position.
Point of Order
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I would like you to ask the minister to correct the record. He has indicated that we did not participate in the meeting. The fact of the matter is that we were invited as observers to that meeting. I was sent a communique from that meeting on very short notice asking for approval on it, and we were not part of the meeting. I would like the minister to correct the record. We were invited as observers to that meeting.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Swan River does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
* * *
Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.
MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
Emergency Physicians' Strike
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry),
THAT under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the health care system posed by this government's lack of action on the emergency doctors' strike.
An Honourable Member: You have support.
Mr. Lamoureux: Lots of support.
Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, to speak to the urgency of a public debate.
* (1420)
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, as Beauchesne's points out, there are a couple of circumstances which have to be covered in order to allow for an emergency debate. First and foremost, it has to be demonstrated that the public interest would in fact be best served. I will venture to argue as to why it is in just a moment. Secondly, there is no ordinary opportunity which will allow the matter to be brought to the attention of this Chamber.
Because this is somewhat of a unique session in the sense that we are now going to be debating bills, there are no other opportunities in terms of grievances under the normal circumstances. A concurrence has been passed. The budget in itself has been passed. There is no legislation that is there before us that would allow us to enter into the debate on what is in fact a very important issue to all Manitobans. That brings me back then to why it is in fact in the public's best interest that we set aside today's time to debate this very important issue.
We in the Liberal Party believe that emergency services in our hospitals are a part of the core essential health delivery system that we have in the province of Manitoba. We like to believe that if in fact, as I alluded to earlier in Question Period, you have the unfortunate circumstances which see, whether it is a cardiac arrest or any other ailment, Madam Speaker, that you can in fact go to a hospital not in fear that the emergency ward is going to be closed down. Today it is Victoria; tomorrow it is Grace.
I believe the party had put forward a very reasonable question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today dealing with--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member for Inkster that, as stated in Beauchesne's Citation 390, the member is to be speaking at this point to the urgency, and the urgency in this context means the urgency of immediate debate, not of the subject matter of the motion.
Members should focus exclusively on whether or not there is urgency of debate and whether or not the ordinary opportunities to debate will enable the House to consider the matter early enough to ensure that the public interest will not suffer.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the longer the emergency room doctors' strike continues, the greater the likelihood that patients will be put at risk. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) cannot prove otherwise, and for that reason we believe it is absolutely essential, in the public's best interest, that in fact we have that debate today.
I commented earlier in terms of why there are no other circumstances which would facilitate that debate, so I would ask your deepest consideration, Madam Speaker, and ask for full concurrence from all members of the Chamber in support of this matter of urgent public importance.
Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I think the member for Inkster has leapt to a giant conclusion, erroneously so. The question of the entire health care system coming apart as a result of an emergency doctors' strike in certain hospitals in Winnipeg is not happening. Service is being provided 24 hours a day at two hospitals and for 12 hours a day at the rest of the hospitals. The fact that we have 60 or 70 hospitals in Manitoba, and we have certain physicians at certain five hospitals is not the end of the health care system.
In terms of the ability to debate the matter, yes, the member is quite correct that we do not have Estimates or Supply or legislative opportunities to debate, but if he thinks the matter, in his mind at least, is so important that it should be discussed--and I do not agree with his proposition that we need to have an emergency debate, Madam Speaker, but if he really thinks that it is important enough to discuss, I would invite him to submit a resolution under Private Members' Business, and the government will support the elevation of that resolution to the top of the Order Paper at the first opportunity so that the discussion can take place in the House if he deems it so important.
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I rise to support the motion on behalf of our party concerning the need for debate. It is fairly clear that an emergency has risen largely because of government inaction over the past several months.
Earlier today, we tabled a copy of a letter dated June 20 from the head of emergency services at Health Sciences Centre talking about the impending crisis, Madam Speaker. We wrote on behalf of our party to the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) on September 1, asking the minister, in light of the apparent possible breakdown in negotiations, to take some action to try to resolve this matter, and we have only heard now, today, that the Minister of Health has written a letter, in fact, to the parties urging them to get back to the bargaining table.
It seems to me, Madam Speaker, that this is an opportunity. The situation facing hospitals is quite serious. Last week, we had an emergency doctor at St. Boniface Hospital indicate that things were not going well as the government line would have us believe, and the situation is becoming more critical day by day.
The lack of government action, the government having the opportunity to instruct the negotiators of MHO, the government having the opportunity to step in, the Minister of Health being responsible for the cutbacks that have resulted in this strike results--[interjection] and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will have his opportunity to speak in the debate--this has resulted in a crisis situation or a near-crisis situation at the hospital, and no appropriate solution has been offered by members opposite today, so we on this side of the House would like to have an opportunity to suggest to the government, to debate with the government, possible courses of action, first and foremost which is the recommended appointment of a mediator who can step in and resolve this issue and not doctor-bash and not let Manitoba patients become guinea pigs at the bequest of the government.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: I thank honourable members for their advice as to whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) should be debated today.
I did receive the notice required under our subrule 27(1). According to our Rule 27 and Beauchesne's Citations 389 and 390, the two conditions required for a matter of urgent importance to proceed are: (a) the subject matter must be so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow it to be brought on early enough, and, (b) it must be shown that the public interest will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention.
I see no other opportunities in the immediate future for the House to debate this issue as the grievance process is no longer available nor are there any directly relevant bills or resolutions. I note that Speaker Rocan, in January 1991, ruled in a similar fashion on a matter concerning the nurses strike.
In my opinion, this is an urgent matter and the first opportunity the House has had to debate this. I do see that the public interest would be served by having a debate and I am ruling the matter in order.
The question then before the House is, shall the debate proceed?
Voice Vote
Madam Speaker: All those in favour, please say yea.
Some Honourable Members: Yea.
Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay.
Some Honourable Members: Nay.
Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. [interjection] A recorded vote.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, under the rules, of course, it indicates that we are required to have four members in order to call for Yeas and Nays. I can assure the House that there are two members from the Liberal caucus currently present who are in favour of having the Yeas and Nays and if there are in fact two other members inside the Chamber we would like to see the vote.
Madam Speaker: Is there support for the member's request for a recorded vote?
Formal Vote
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Perhaps to simplify the process, I would call for Yeas and Nays.
Madam Speaker: The honourable member does have support. A recorded vote has been requested, call in the members.
The question before the House is: Shall the debate proceed?
Division
A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows:
Yeas
Ashton, Barrett, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Friesen, Gaudry, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lamoureux, Lathlin, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthers, Wowchuk.
Nays
Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, McAlpine, Mitchelson, Newman, Pallister, Penner, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, Render, Rocan, Stefanson, Sveinson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey.
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I was paired with the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh). Had I not been, I would have voted with my party.
Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 24, Nays 28.
Madam Speaker: The question is accordingly lost.