Aboriginal Justice Initiatives

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. The committee is dealing with the AJI. The minister's staff to come into the Chamber at this time.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Last night we talked a little bit on the First Nations' policing policy, particularly relating to the Island Lake tribal council. The minister will recall that I left with her some of the correspondence that has been forwarded to her office by the leadership of the Island Lake tribal council. I am wondering if the minister has had an opportunity to peruse the contents of the correspondence as well as the Letter of Intent that has been drafted by the Island Lake tribal council with respect to initiating a policing service for those four communities in the Island Lake area.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I would just like to check with the member that he received his letters back. Good, thank you. I just wanted to make sure for the record that he had and he has.

The negotiation process with Island Lake has started, but having looked at the matter I find that the Island Lake tribal council has asked for substantial funding for the negotiation process. I can tell the member that no one else has asked for this funding in the agreements which we have completed or in others which we are near to completing. Those other negotiations have in fact been very long and protracted, so I understand they are seeking this money from Canada. This is a federal policy, I understand that they have not had an answer yet from Canada. We will be very interested to see what Canada's policy may be in this matter.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I do not really want to pursue that issue until such time, I am sure, that we will have an opportunity to get further information at a later time as to where the proposal is going, but I do know that the Island Lake tribal council has informed us they would like to begin the process of negotiations with both levels of government. They would like to begin the process of developing their initiative in their four communities that we know as Island Lake.

I would like to get the opinion of the minister and perhaps her reaction on certain issues on the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Indigenous Women's Collective, the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg jointly forwarded to the Province of Manitoba an official response back in February of 1992.

In their letter they indicated the sentiment of Manitobans and Canadians in supporting the inherent right to aboriginal self-government and measures to implement aboriginal justice systems is clear. They further said it was illustrated by the clear endorsement of these concepts by such diverse entities as the AJI itself and the Saskatchewan Indian justice review committee that concluded their report, as well, a couple of years ago, the Canadian Law Reform Commission, the Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Human Rights Commission and most provincial governments in this country and also the provincial constitutional task force that did its work here in the province of Manitoba.

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The aboriginal leadership of this province have always maintained that they are prepared to be responsible and flexible and determined in seeking justice for aboriginal people and accordingly are prepared to work with the provincial government toward this goal provided that the following principles formed a basis out of that relationship. First of all, full and equal participation in defining objectives and decision making in a process to develop a policy in the area of aboriginal justice and as well the recognition for the inherent right to self-government and aboriginal jurisdiction over justice are viewed by aboriginal people as being indivisible, also the establishment of an open process of dialogue on substantive matters between a government and aboriginal government representatives. This includes, of course, the recommendations of the AJI and the rationale for these positions.

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

The aboriginal leadership also said they would like to have this government reconsider its position on aboriginal justice issues and encourage this government to recognize their responsibility to join with First Nations and with Metis people and aboriginal people in general in this province in a partnership arrangement to begin a process of bringing about significant and fundamental reform in a relationship between our peoples, meaning the aboriginal people, and the government of this province and also the Government of Canada.

I just want to get the opinion of the minister on whether or not there are vehicles that she has considered in implementing some of the--I know that last night we got a good outline of what is currently happening in this province with respect to meeting some of the recommendations. On the more substantive matters of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, what consideration has the minister given to keeping in mind with what I said in developing a partnership arrangement in implementing the outstanding recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry?

Mrs. Vodrey: I just wanted to go back to the previous question. As a starting point the member was speaking about the negotiation with the Island Lake tribal council and indicated their willingness to move ahead. I just want to, on the record, indicate that certainly this government is also prepared to move ahead into negotiation. To my knowledge one of the issues that seemed to be standing in the way was whether or not the federal government was prepared to grant to the Island Lake tribal council any dollars for that negotiation process, and to my knowledge that had not been done for others. Certainly, we as a government, I can say, are ready and willing, and I am happy to have the opportunity to put it on the record to proceed through the negotiation process.

As we discussed last night, and I hope it is still agreeable for the member, my colleague the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Praznik) is also here for the discussion on the AJI. The member has raised some issues relating to the broad issue of self-government which would then lead us into any detailed issues on Justice, so with the member's agreement I would ask my colleague the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs to deal with the question.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Is the honourable member for Rupertsland agreed? The honourable member for Rupertsland indicating his agreement. The Chair recognizes the Minister of Northern Affairs.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Perhaps it is the heat, one gets crotchety, I am not sure.

An Honourable Member: Never.

Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I am very glad the member asked that particular question because we had a chance to discuss it at some length in the Estimates of the Department of Northern and Native Affairs. I just want to make a statement more for qualification, I think the historical record than anything else.

I know as a member of the Meech Lake constitutional task force committee and the various all-party committees that we had, Manitoba and the positions that were developed in that committee, from time to time I see that some parts of our recommendations are referred to.

I think it is worth noting that the compromises that were made in coming up with that all-encompassing package were in fact very much tied to one another and many of the trade-offs in a constitutional debate that take place. One issue is given up for another or positions are developed in the context of the whole, and I think it is important to note the commitment of many to that report. It was a commitment to the entire report which ultimately was voted on by way of referendum and was defeated soundly in this province. Although there were a variety of principles enunciating that agreement, it is important to recognize the package as a whole was defeated and those who were party to the package were parties to the entire package. It just must be put into that context.

With respect to aboriginal self-government which is obviously an important part of the AJI report, we as a provincial government were not invited to be part of the dismantling exercise, and the dismantling exercise, of course, is obviously the front edge or the front end of aboriginal self-government initiatives in the province of Manitoba.

We were not invited, but I would agree it was not appropriate we necessarily be invited, because the issues being dealt with were between the First Nations and the federal government. It is important to note that point, and the member for Rupertsland and I have had this discussion and this exchange in other committees.

We, as a provincial government, as we develop our position, as we see the issues that come forward out of the dismantling process with which we will have to deal and to date we are just beginning the process. We started today with an excellent opening meeting with the representatives of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. We hope to be able to build on that as the issues develop. But I say this to the member for Rupertsland, what is important to note and a position Manitoba has advanced on issues, Child and Family Services, for example, that have come forward to date, is that we want any jurisdiction that is being passed to First Nations to be done in a proper and legal and constitutional manner, which means the federal Parliament, the Parliament of Canada, must exercise its authority to make any such dispositions or advances of power, legislative authority or jurisdictions, to First Nations, so very much the ball is in the court, so to speak, of the Parliament of Canada.

My colleague the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) spoke at great length last night about a host of administrative efforts that we are taking, things that we are able to do within the general framework of our responsibility for administering of justice, but the transferring of the authority for the administration of justice to First Nations in whatever form or to whatever degree has to be done, as I understand it, by the Parliament of Canada, and we would be very insistent that the Parliament of Canada take what legislative steps are necessary to deal with those issues.

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Again, the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) and I have been involved in this discussion and exchange, and that view on issue by issue is being expressed to the Assembly for Manitoba Chiefs. Of course, we would want to have those discussions about practical matters, et cetera, but we are very insistent that the Parliament of Canada use its authority under the Constitution to do the things that are being asked for because that, quite frankly, is the proper legal way to do it, and we would want that to happen.

Mr. Robinson: I want to again reiterate my question to the Minister of Justice. I want to get a sense here as to the idea, as was recommended by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, about an aboriginal justice commission to be composed of the different levels of government, including to some degree the city government because to some degree the Winnipeg City Police has implemented some aspects of the recommendations with respect to employment equity and bringing the number of aboriginal people in the police force up to a better number than it was prior, and also bringing the main players from the federal side, the Metis, the government side, the First Nations community, and begin the process of a true partnership in implementing the recommendations. I just want to get the view of the minister whether or not this is a possibility for aboriginal people in this province.

Mrs. Vodrey: To my knowledge, government gave its response on the issue of the commission back when government gave an overall response to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. At that time, I am told that government took the position that the commission might be interested in the budget and in the management of the budget. The position of government is that the government of Manitoba feels the need to retain management over the budget on behalf of the people of Manitoba because that is our responsibility.

If the Parliament of Canada, the Government of Canada, chooses to exercise its parliamentary opportunity, which my colleague has just spoken about, and begins to deal with that matter in terms of jurisdiction, then we will perhaps have a different lay of the land. But, at the moment, the position which was given in our government's response, I believe, in 1992, is the position that this government still holds in relation to the commission.

However, the member had a second part to his question, and that was working groups. Is there another way then that we can in fact work together? It is our position that, yes, we can certainly work together in the area of working groups, and we are interested in doing that. I mentioned last evening, the Justice department working group is currently working in partnership with numerous aboriginal groups on developing justice initiatives. Many of these initiatives are the initiatives which have come directly from the community.

MKO views working in partnership with the Justice department as part of its self-government initiative. Also, other communities are focusing on seeing justice work better in their communities, and they want to work with Justice to achieve this. We spoke about lots of mechanisms which are possible, the things such as the appointment of community magistrates, the community participation agreements which we spoke about last evening which give some real opportunity within the communities to work directly within the justice system.

Certainly, working groups, partnerships, that is more than a possibility. We are in fact doing that and look to continue to do that and do more.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I am aware of the working groups that were proposed; the aboriginal organizations declined to participate in them a couple of years ago.

Am I understanding the minister correctly in that these working groups have in fact started with the participation of the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Indigenous Women's Collective? I am just wondering if those people are participants of these working groups.

Mrs. Vodrey: The process has been that we are not approaching any groups specifically. We are dealing with those groups who are approaching us, those groups who are approaching us with an idea that is in fact coming from the community. One of the risk factors, if we had approached groups, is that we would have been perceived as trying to push our ideas onto that group, so the process has been one where we work with groups who have approached us.

Mr. Robinson: As the minister may be aware, including her staff, the four organizations that I mentioned earlier were in agreement on the process that they would like to take with not only this government but also the federal government with respect to implementing the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. The united front proposed a secretariat, again going back to my interpretation of what a partnership arrangement should be in the eyes of the aboriginal people, and that was to have total and equal participation in a joint strategy with the federal government, the provincial government and those four organizations. Has there been any more?

I know that there was a letter recently requesting that the Province of Manitoba become involved, again from the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. Have there been any attempts made again--and quoting the aboriginal organizations that I talked about--to have the government of Manitoba quarterback a process that would meet the needs of all the parties concerned?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that in relation to certain projects or possible initiatives, our government has been interested in putting money forward, but I am also told and have seen since I have been minister that the federal government has not been as willing to put their money on the table and to participate, and this is particularly in the area of courts where the federal government has not been a participant in terms of developments in the area of courts with the aboriginal communities.

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Mr. Robinson: I know that we could talk about this particular issue probably for a long time, but I would like to move along.

Another recommendation of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was the idea of an aboriginal justice college to provide training and ongoing education for aboriginal people required to assume positions of responsibility within both the existing justice system and also aboriginal justice systems that may develop in the future. I would just like to get the view of the minister with respect to that recommendation, whether or not any moves have been made to investigate that idea further.

Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, though we have not moved in the area of an aboriginal justice college, I do want to speak a little bit about what is available within the Department of Justice, within Corrections, a mentorship program which is training aboriginal staff to take greater levels of responsibility. I am told two staff people have been identified for September, and we are looking to bring others into the mentorship program in December or January. So there is an individual kind of training program there.

In addition, within other divisions of the Department of Justice, we have divisions who are promoting the training of aboriginal people to take more and more responsibility within the justice system. We have spoken several times about aboriginal magistrates within communities to bring justice more directly to the community. We have been speaking today about First Nations' policing agreements which allow communities to determine what type of policing they want and to have control over the development of that police service. In Corrections we have also been speaking about some of the other significant changes in the area of corrections.

So the training is in fact going on, though it is not going on under the umbrella of an aboriginal justice college, but the facts are and the reality is that there is in fact training going on to encourage aboriginal employees to begin to take more responsibility or at least to even enter into the justice system, for example, community magistrates.

Otherwise, we have our community colleges now which have moved to board governance. That board governance allows the community colleges to develop programs virtually at any time of the year for intake virtually anytime. Unlike the old system when the community colleges were directly tied to government, programs were approved once a year by the minister and it was a much more rigid system, the system now is one in which programs can be developed and entered into on a much more as-needed basis where the need has been identified, and I know that the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) has spoken frequently about the support to aboriginal students within our three community colleges. So we already have a system which is attempting to provide training in a culturally sensitive way within our community colleges, and that is currently available.

In answer to the member's question, the system of community colleges currently available, making efforts to be sensitive to the needs of aboriginal people, aboriginal students and staff as well as developing programs, having the ability to develop programs, and then within our system of justice, looking to make sure that there are opportunities for individuals to take up and the training that would go along with them.

Mr. Robinson: I wonder if the minister would just give an indication as to the current number of people who are in training programs as she indicated.

Mrs. Vodrey: The programs are quite widespread throughout the colleges as well as through government, so I do not have a number available. I am told that the correctional officers training program which operates through Red River Community College, there was an estimation that close to half of those individuals graduating were aboriginal people who then would be able to enter into the correctional service.

As I had said last evening, we have nine community magistrates who are aboriginal people. I gave numbers in terms of probation officers who are aboriginal people. In order to give the member numbers, it would really require a survey of several departments and independent colleges.

Mr. Robinson: Last night we talked a little about the underrepresentation of aboriginal people working within the justice system. One of the other very important recommendations made by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was the creation of an employment equity act. I wonder if the minister has given any consideration for such.

Mr. Praznik: I offer some comment on this particular issue, having served as a civil service minister for a number of years in this province. We, as a provincial government, and the type of employment, in many cases, that the member is suggesting, where the report identified that it would probably be a good thing to have more aboriginal people working, these areas are under provincial jurisdiction. We are the direct employer in many cases, whether they be provincial jails, court system, probation services, et cetera. These areas, of course, are governed by the Affirmative Action Policy of the Province of Manitoba.

As I pointed out to one of the member's colleagues when we discussed the same issue in the Energy and Mines Estimates, it has been very difficult over the last few years to increase the representation in our target communities simply because we have not had the job openings. We have gone through a very significant reduction of staff across the provincial civil service, and, to be very blunt and honest, the first priority of the administration was to reduce to a minimum the number of actual staff that we had to lay off, even as we were reducing positions. So we have been using vacancy management, voluntary separation incentive plans, et cetera, to keep most of the people working whose positions were eliminated in past budgets.

So the opportunities generally to expand the number of new hirings, which of course would provide an opportunity for increasing the number of aboriginal people in these areas, qualified aboriginal people in these areas, just quite frankly have not been there.

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I would tell the member, as well, the greatest detractor of affirmative action, the people most opposed to it that I had to deal with as minister were the Manitoba Government Employees Union. They took a very strong view in many meetings of the joint council that they were opposed to affirmative action other than at entry- level positions. We were never quite able to resolve that issue with them, so I would ask the member for Rupertsland, in fairness to us on this side, to use his contacts through the New Democratic Party with the MGEU leadership that are there to pursue this issue as well, because it is difficult for us on this side of the House one day to be criticized for not having an affirmative action program moving ahead quickly enough and, on the other, hear from the leadership of the MGEU who have publicly aligned themselves very closely to his party, saying to us privately, in joint council meetings, that we are opposed to affirmative action for other than entry-level positions.

I share that with the member and ask for his recommendation or him to pursue this issue with his friends because it certainly has been an issue with our employees. When we are talking about these areas, one must remember that the major institutions of the justice system, the province is the direct employer, and we must live with collective agreements and work with the representatives of our employees.

Anything that he could do to perhaps make the MGEU somewhat more co-operative certainly would advance the cause that he is putting forward at this committee.

Mr. Robinson: I am not familiar with what the minister is saying in committee this afternoon. However, I will investigate, certainly, what he has brought to the attention of this committee.

I would like to revert again to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and some of the recommendations contained therein.

The commissioners also found, and we talked a little bit about this last night, that aboriginal women and their children suffer tremendously as victims in contemporary society. They are victims of racism, sexism and uncontrollable levels of domestic violence. The justice system has done little to protect them. At the same time, the commissioners noted that aboriginal women have an even higher rate of overrepresentation in the jail system than aboriginal men, and the commissioners concluded that they believe that the plight of aboriginal women and their children must be a priority for change in the justice system.

Further to that, Mr. Chairperson, aboriginal women's groups agree that short-term crisis intervention often is needed, and they want to go from that point to one where there is treatment provided for the family as a unit--I know we talked about this last night--including both the parents and the children. Many aboriginal communities, including Hollow Water that the minister alluded to last night, had developed these very impressive holistic practices, holistic treatment programs which also include the spiritual needs of individuals, along with the emotional, physical, intellectual support that is often required in situations like this.

I know that the minister has spoken on this, spoke on this last night, but it is a very, very important need of most aboriginal people throughout the 61 First Nations that are scattered throughout this province, and I am wondering if her department has given any consideration to such healing initiatives to address the many, many socioeconomic needs of aboriginal communities in this province.

Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, on that whole area of domestic violence I think it is important to note this government's position is one of zero tolerance, and that zero tolerance applies wherever you are and wherever you live in the province.

We very aggressively pursue that policy of zero tolerance across the province. We do have the Domestic Violence Court, a very specialized court of its kind across this country, to deal with areas of domestic violence, with judges who are specialists, with Crown attorneys who are specialists. In fact that training has now gone beyond the Domestic Violence Court. For those people who work for us, our Crown attorneys, I understand that most now have had training in the area of dealing with spousal abuse.

Speaking of women who are within our institutions, as the member spoke about, within the Portage Correctional Institution, there is aboriginal programming for inmates within the institution. We do have elders who attend to the institution, and those elders also are able to develop programs. There are traditional cultural programs available within the Portage Correctional Institution.

I am also told, though this falls to my colleague the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that there is an aboriginal halfway house for aboriginal women, and it is called Ndinawemaaganag Endaawaad. If the member has further questions on that, I am sure the Minister of Family Services would be happy to answer them at another time.

I think the important part is the co-operation across government in an attempt to deal with those issues relating to people who have both been the offenders and also those people who have been the victims.

Within our institutions, we have anger-management programs, and we have programs that deal with domestic violence, both short-term and long-term programs. Those programs also continue when people are released from the institution and are the responsibility of our Community Corrections.

We also have, in relation to youth--this moves away from the domestic violence issue, but I think it is important when the member is asking about the holistic treatment of offenders. We have a family group counselling for youth who are offenders. This deals with not only the immediate family but also the extended family. When the member asks about a more holistic treatment in terms of bringing together the offender and the victim and the children and perhaps other family members, across the province, there really has not yet been a recommendation of how or when that would be the most successful. I think there are some developments in that area to be considered, really on behalf of all Manitobans who may be victims of domestic violence.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I will again communicate with the minister on these and other issues. There are some that I would like to ask that are very important, in my opinion.

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In 1990, I believe the Manitoba Aboriginal Court Worker advisory council, which consisted of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the MMF, the Indigenous Women's Collective, the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg and the Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres, asked the then-chief provincial judge, Kris Stefanson, to develop an aboriginal court model, which the committee did, and recommended an aboriginal court model which would have included aboriginal judges, hearing officers and magistrates, paralegal prosecutors, paralegals acting for the accused, community justice workers, under the direction of specific communities and responsible for developing a wide range of justice issues.

Also, a part of this component was something that was very culturally sensitive and very appropriate considering the aboriginal circumstances in this province, a council of elders and also Metis senators in each community, which would assist the presiding judge or magistrate in carrying out his or her duties.

What the aboriginal circuit court model proposed was to focus in on regions of this province. For example, Cross Lake, Norway House, Oxford House, Nelson House, Wabowden, Split Lake, Loon Lake, Gods Lake would function as one region; and, for example, nine communities like Barrows, Mafeking, Pelican Rapids, Shoal River, Duck Bay, Pine Creek, Camperville, Sandy Bay, Winnipegosis, Waterhen, Waywayseecappo would be another region; and also the other areas of Manitoba. This was considered to be partners in court reform.

I am just wondering whatever happened to that initiative that was brought forward to the Justice department by those organizations.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that flowing from that recommendation, which had been termed at that time the aboriginal court model, we assigned two staff, and we tried to begin to develop that model. We consulted with 62 communities involved, I am told. However, what the consultation revealed was that the communities did not want to have that single model. The communities in fact wanted us to work with them community by community to develop a model within their own community. That made it very difficult then to proceed based on a recommendation which envisioned a single model, a sort of more unified model which was what the communities were not interested in at that time.

I am told that at the moment, in terms of our work with MKO, they have had some interest in that proposal, and I understand they may be willing to identify some communities within their umbrella who might be willing to participate in developing a model that may be broader than a single community. The results of it were really at the request of the communities who did not express an interest in that particular style of recommendation.

Mr. Robinson: The youth justice committees that we talked about in this committee last night and alluded to a little today, I have had the opportunity to be in different parts of this province over the years and I have had an opportunity, particularly in the last two years since I have been a member of this Legislature, to be places like Gods River where they have taken the initiative of developing a youth program, taking into consideration some of the traditional skills of our forefathers with respect to trapping, fishing and hunting.

I am wondering if the department is working with such groups like the one in Gods River headed up by Councillor Tom McKay. They also have initiatives in the works in Berens River, headed up by the mayor of the Metis community Lawrence Disbrowe and Chief Joe Ross and Councillor Steve Berens over on the First Nations side of the community. As well, in Bloodvein there were some innovative ideas of these youth camps headed up by Chief Helen Cook and others from that community.

I am wondering if the department has worked with these communities and other communities in developing these youth camps as an alternative to the high incarceration rate that aboriginal youth currently face and is an everyday reality in this province.

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that we have a probation officer in Gods Lake Narrows. That individual I am told is the chief--I beg your pardon, he was a former chief and very well known and well connected within the area. He works with a group of communities in that area, and so we would expect certainly that there would be work within those communities and some possibilities that would flow from that work.

Mr. Robinson: Last year I believe we received copies of a guideline to develop a proposal to operate a youth camp that was submitted or produced by Manitoba Corrections, the Department of Justice. I am wondering if this is the basis to allow communities to develop proposals to forward to the Department of Justice on such ideas as I described in Gods River.

Mrs. Vodrey: Several communities told us in response to an announcement that they were interested in looking at developing some proposals. So the guidelines have been developed. What we did was make sure that communities who expressed an interest had the opportunity to see the guidelines and certainly to make proposals. Those guidelines still stand today, although they were circulated approximately a year ago. The guidelines still stand today.

Mr. Robinson: I am wondering how many proposals have been submitted to the department and how many have been approved for assistance.

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Mrs. Vodrey: I am told we had about six or seven proposals submitted. Several groups asked to meet directly with me, and groups had the opportunity to meet with Corrections. None have been approved at this point because it was government's decision that we would proceed with the two boot camps, one wilderness camp model and one intensive custody model, which we put in place with the announcement in mid-September.

Government's position was that we would like to evaluate those areas in which we actually are in charge of the facility and then, with that evaluation complete, we would be interested then in exploring what further expansion might occur. Rather than have individuals invest dollars and time and training and not know whether this would be the effective model in Manitoba, we ask first that we do an evaluation on those of which we are in charge.

Mr. Robinson: I would like to thank the minister for the answers that she has provided to my questions. They are somewhat helpful. I am sure we will be in further dialogue in the time to come, including her and also the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Praznik).

Mr. Chairperson, aboriginal people are survivors. There is no doubt about that; there is evidence of that. The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry dug that up. Aboriginal people have survived racist policies and attitudes of churches, residential schools, jails and governments and society in general over the years. I believe that we will constructively, on our part anyway, continue to recommend to this government that they develop these partnership arrangements that I was talking about earlier, partnership arrangements to implement the recommendations of the AJI.

I believe this would be a just and proper course of action and a credit to this government and also to this minister if we can indeed begin the development and also the implementation of the recommendations of the AJI.

I would like to thank the minister for answering my questions, and I look forward to further dialogue with her with respect to the initiatives that are currently happening in Manitoba.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): The item under discussion was item 27.1: 1. Aboriginal Justice Initiatives $1,000,000--pass.

Resolution 27.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,000,000 for Other Appropriations, under the category of Aboriginal Justice Initiatives, for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 1996.

Decentralization

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Mike Radcliffe): The committee will come to order to discuss the issue of 27.4 Decentralization. The first item concerns Decentralization $100,000.

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I would like to just make a brief opening statement. It gives me great pleasure to present the budget Estimates for our government's decentralization initiative. As members of the House know, the decentralization of government offices gives Manitobans living in rural and remote areas access to services they deserve and expect from government.

I had the opportunity yesterday, Mr. Chair, to witness first-hand the positive and beneficial results of decentralization when I attended the office opening of the Textbook Bureau administration offices in Souris. Because of decentralization, the community has 13 new jobs and the many benefits, of course, that go along with them. Nine of those 13 positions represent Winnipeggers who chose to call Souris their new home, thereby creating demand for housing and services that are being supplied by local residents.

As of March 31, 1995, 669.15 positions have been relocated to 61 communities, all like Souris and all in receipt of growth opportunities that would not have otherwise occurred if it had not been for decentralization. While the task is nearing completion, it is certainly not over yet.

During the fiscal year ended March 31, 1995, 27 positions were decentralized, 15 of which were new or vacant positions, while 12 employees chose to relocate with their decentralized positions.

Decentralization is providing a major economic stimulus for rural Manitoba along with a number of other significant benefits. Rural economies are being stimulated and strengthened. Program delivery is more efficient through the restructuring and reorganization of staff and expansion of computer technology in program relocations and consolidations. Meanwhile, government services in rural Manitoba are benefiting from increased input and are now more sensitive and responsive to local conditions and priorities.

What does this mean in real terms? For one, it equates to the transfer of $26 million in direct payroll to rural Manitoba. If only half the net take-home pay were spent in rural Manitoba the economic spin-offs would lever about $3.6 million in additional service-sector wages and 130 additional jobs.

The decentralization initiative creates other opportunities as well: up to 3,500 weeks of work for local trades and traders through new construction, new buildings worth $9.1 million, and tenant and leasehold improvements amounting to something in the neighbourhood of $3.8 million. What I have listed here are just some of the many economic benefits that result in rural communities because of decentralization.

Another example of the benefits of decentralization that will not show up on a balance sheet include the relocation of 311 Winnipeggers who decided to call rural Manitoba home, bringing with them their varied skills and talents. Whether they are all involved in a local church group, sitting on a community board, coaching a local sports team or volunteering in the community in some other worthwhile capacity, these new rural residents are helping to reinvent the rural economy.

Meanwhile, over the long term, these jobs will remain in rural Manitoba. As positions become vacant, opportunities will open up for rural Manitobans, particularly rural youth, who will have more employment options than would otherwise exist if it were not for decentralization. This will give them the chance to live and work where they grew up.

This government remains just as committed to decentralization as when the initiative was first announced. Efforts will continue for the 1995-96 fiscal year to complete our initiative. The $100,000 that is being requested for appropriation 27.4 for the coming year is expected to cover any outstanding expenses related to decentralization. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

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The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Does the member for Interlake have an opening statement?

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I thank the minister for his words with respect to this department. I believe that, since I have been a part of the Rural Development critic area, I have always insisted in debate or in discussions with the minister on how important the Decentralization program is to rural Manitobans.

We see over the last year or two few increases basically in the Decentralization program as far as jobs moving to rural Manitoba. I would like to say that my feelings and the feelings of our caucus are that the program should be enhanced, and perhaps could be enhanced for the future, to provide further services to the areas that we feel are needed.

There are areas and communities, and the minister knows this well, that I have talked about that are in need of the kind of services that should be provided, whether it be in Agriculture, Rural Development or whether it should be in water resources, Natural Resources, and I hope that, with this minister and with co-operation from all the departments, we are able to provide some of these communities with the services that are needed. I mention another one being Environment; I mentioned Agriculture, of course, and Natural Resources.

There are the northern rural communities that I think we should be able to look at providing those kinds of services and the jobs available in those areas. We are having, of course, different economic developments occurring throughout northern and rural areas, and I feel that perhaps--and the minister, hopefully, will agree with me--there is further need, more need of the type of services and the job opportunities in these areas, one of them being Environment.

So I look forward to a further development after these Estimates of Decentralization. Hopefully, yes, we will be able to provide the young people of the future the opportunity to get jobs in rural areas that hopefully will be provided by the Decentralization program in the services that are needed.

So I look forward to our Estimates' process, and we will ask the minister a few specific questions on this department and hopefully--I know he will co-operate.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): At this time, we would invite the minister's staff to join us at the table. We would ask the minister to introduce the staff when they enter the Chamber.

Mr. Derkach: By way of introduction, Mr. Chair, we have the deputy minister of Rural Development, Mr. Winston Hodgins; and also the assistant co-ordinator of the decentralization initiative, Mr. Robin Hall.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister mentioned in his opening statement that in the year ending March 31, 1995, there were 27 decentralized jobs. That seems, over the past few years, like a significant drop in the total number and specifically when we see that 13 of these 27 new positions via decentralization were actually promised or made aware of two years ago when it came to the Souris book, education department, the new--I am lost for the word I am looking for. So, out of 27, 13 were already promised a couple of years ago. So you are talking about only 14 positions having been decentralized in the past fiscal year.

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, the decentralization that took place in this past fiscal year was done as a carry-over from the commitments that were made in the original decentralization initiative. The Textbook Bureau was committed to move to Souris in 1990, I believe, when I was still with the Department of Education and Training at the time. Since then we have worked pretty diligently to try and accommodate the administration offices in Souris. The office opened in November. We officially opened the Textbook Bureau in Souris yesterday.

Of all these positions, of the 27, all of them were communities that had been identified in the beginning, and we are simply trying to live up to our commitment. That is what we will continue to do over the next year.

When the member says that the activity has declined from what it was previously, that is true. We had 27 positions decentralized in this past year, again trying to make sure that we live up to the commitment that was established under our administration. Combined with the budget adjustments that had to have been made over the last number of years, I think we have done significantly well to make sure that we live up to our commitment, and it has certainly been appreciated by rural Manitobans.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, has the minister's department or the government succeeded in their original commitment and all the original applications of the communities or the departments or the services that were required to be decentralized, has the minister met those commitments?

Mr. Derkach: In the beginning, in the announcement that was made we had initially committed to moving 693 government positions and Crown corporation positions to rural Manitoba. We are about 96 percent complete now. We have moved 669 positions. Indeed the initiative is being slowly committed to its full extent, but it does not mean that it will stop at 693. If there are, in fact, positions we identify that make sense to decentralize to rural communities, we will continue to press in that vein.

Mr. Clif Evans: What criteria does the minister suggest for relocation for the different positions or the different departments? What is going to, let us say, have Environment people be decentralized to an area in rural Manitoba? What would be the requirements?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, the two criteria that we pay significant attention to are: No. 1, that we do not compromise the services that are being delivered by the branch or by the department that is being decentralized; and No. 2, that it is cost-effective to do that. When I say that, I mean we can either operate the offices as effectively from that rural community as we can in the city of Winnipeg or, in fact, at a lower cost. Those are two significant factors that are looked at whenever we decentralize or look at potential candidates for decentralization.

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Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, can the minister indicate today whether there has been a large or significant increase within the rural communities applying for decentralized jobs, and what are they?

Mr. Derkach: No, there has not been an increase in the number of communities that are applying for decentralized positions. However, there are those communities that we have heard from, from the very beginning, who continue to lobby for decentralized positions.

As I have indicated, we are trying to fulfill our commitments that were made in the beginning. Not every community in Manitoba is going to have decentralized positions. I think that only stands to reason. If you look at the regions, we have tried to ensure that within the regions of our province we decentralize as many positions as possible.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chairman, the minister has indicated, of course, that 669 positions have been decentralized. I might have asked this last year. I looked through my notes, and I could not find it. Of course, the beginning of the program or announcement of the program was in 1990, so of these 669 were there any incumbent positions where you just moved people into a position that was already located in that area, or are these 669 totally new positions of people moving to rural areas?

Mr. Derkach: The 669 positions that are referred to in the Supplementary Estimates are positions that have been decentralized from the city of Winnipeg. They are not positions that were present in rural Manitoba and simply filled and then called decentralized positions. So these are all positions that have been decentralized from the city of Winnipeg to rural Manitoba.

Mr. Clif Evans: So positions, for example, that were in Selkirk or in Brandon and some of the larger centres were not affected by any decentralization moves to rural areas that required the services of that specific department that might have gone to the rural areas?

Mr. Derkach: Of the 669 positions that we referred to, Mr. Chairman, those were all positions that were moved from Winnipeg to rural Manitoba. However, there are shifts from rural Manitoba as well. For example, as the member knows, the Brandon mental health unit that was being reorganized is also moving positions to various communities in the Parkland and rural Manitoba. Those are over and above, if you like, what we count in the decentralization numbers of 669.

Mr. Clif Evans: Out of all the commitments that this department has made to decentralized rural jobs, can the minister indicate whether there has, for example, been 50 promised or 40 promised to a specific area, 20, whatever the number may be, and that commitment was not fulfilled?

Mr. Derkach: As I have indicated from the very beginning, what we had done in the beginning was to identify branches and areas of departments that could be candidates for decentralization. In restructuring of government, in fact some of those areas were candidates for seeking efficiencies. When we could identify those that may have meant that a department instead of having 13 positions could operate with 10 or 12 or 11, and when that branch was decentralized it may have meant that instead of 13 positions going out to a particular community, only 10 were decentralized.

We have examples of those types of projects throughout the province. I do not think any single community has been singled out in that respect but, indeed, there are examples of that throughout the rural part of the province.

Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that answer. Again, and I wonder out loud, if a community wants to get the Highways department, they feel that the area needs extra people in Highways or Natural Resources, does a local jurisdiction or community apply through the department itself, or do they come to the Decentralization office with an application or resolution to have the department look at the positions being brought to their area?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it is done in a variety of ways. Some communities will come directly to me as minister and will bring their request and suggestion to me; others, in conversation with departmental staff, will do that. I know my deputy does meet with communities almost constantly, and, in many instances, they will bring that to his attention. It has also been brought to departments.

So there are a number of ways that communities get their message to the government. We try to respond in the best way possible. We look at every situation to see whether or not there is possibility, whether the suggestion makes sense and whether it is practical. If it does, we certainly would move on it.

Mr. Clif Evans: One concern that I do have, and I hope the minister has too, and without really speaking to the communities specifically about it, is the fact that in some of the communities very close to the larger centres, where the positions are decentralized--I am sure we cannot tell anybody basically where to live if they are working in the area, but is there some indication that a large percentage of the people who are decentralized, especially closer to a larger centre, are commuting or are actually living and spending their seven days a week right in that community after work? In other words, are they situated--is there a percentage that we know of?

Mr. Derkach: It varies. Some communities will have people who have decentralized live right in the community; others, for example, yesterday, I talked to people in Souris, and the manager of that branch lives in Brandon.

We cannot dictate where people should live, but in an overall sense approximately 40 percent of people who are decentralized to rural Manitoba move with their positions, and approximately 10 percent will commute, and 50 percent of the positions were filled with the re-employment list and local hirings. In other words, people right from the area were hired for about 50 percent of the positions. So it is a mix and, indeed, we cannot dictate where anybody lives.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): There being no further discussion, it has been resolved that:

Resolution 27.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $100,000 for Other Appropriations, Decentralization, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

The hour being six o'clock, committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

IN SESSION

Madam Speaker: The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday).