Aboriginal Justice Initiatives

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): We will now move on to the AJI.

The honourable minister, would you have an opening statement?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Chair, no, I am prepared to get right to the questioning.

Mr. Chairperson: Does the honourable critic for the opposition have an opening statement?

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I will keep it very short, Mr. Chairperson. I believe that it is pretty much straightforward. I am looking forward to hearing about some of the initiatives of this government relating to the aboriginal justice topics, and I do not want to prolong our discussion here this evening with a long opening statement.

I just want to put on the record that, of course, we are all aware that the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry came to be in 1988 and was primarily established to examine the death of Helen Betty Osborne in The Pas, and, of course, J.J. Harper, and as well, to examine the overall justice system as it relates to aboriginal people in the province of Manitoba.

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After a very exhaustive review of the situation throughout this province, of course, the commissioners came up with a hearty list of recommendations, 293 to be exact. About 101 of those relate directly with the Province of Manitoba. We have asked on numerous occasions during Question Period and other opportunities we have had to find out where the government is at with respect to implementing some of the major recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.

The report, as you know, Mr. Chairperson, was tabled in 1991, and we are fast approaching the anniversary date, the fourth anniversary in August of 1995 of the tabling of the report by Judge Murray Sinclair and also the former associate Chief Justice of the Courts of Manitoba, the family division, Justice Hamilton. I had the opportunity of talking with Justice Hamilton recently and he talked to me about the disappointment he felt in that this government had not moved on some of the major aspects of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I believe that my questions tonight will be straightforward, Mr. Chairperson, with respect to the initiatives that have been undertaken by this government, by this minister and the minister before her. As I say, I do have specific questions. I believe that the AJI, and I indicated in this House before, that it was an exhaustive review of the situation faced by aboriginal people, and also the report dwelled into the conditions that aboriginal people endure on a day-to-day basis throughout this province, some of the Third World conditions that they have to live in.

As you know, the AJI was highly praised by many people, aboriginal people throughout this country but also the aboriginal organizations in this province. Also, at that time, I just want to quote what Mr. Axworthy said, who at that time was an opposition member in the House of Commons, about the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. He told reporters that the federal government must be prepared to make substantial changes to the Indian Act, the Criminal Code and even the Constitution if that is what it takes to implement the report.

I believe the Province of Manitoba has that opportunity yet, Mr. Chairperson, to implement and call all the players together, the First Nations community, the Metis community and other aboriginal organizations and also the federal government. I believe the province has that opportunity to facilitate a meeting to begin the process of implementing the major recommendations of the AJI.

As you know, the aboriginal organizations in the province of Manitoba, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Metis Federation, Indigenous Women's Collective and the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg jointly asked the Province of Manitoba to undergo a process of being able to work on the report. Unfortunately, we have not seen much action on the AJI, and I look forward to some of the minister's comments with respect to what has happened.

Also, I am taking into consideration here that tomorrow there is going to be a joint meeting, a government meeting, if you will, between the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs executive and the cabinet, including the Premier (Mr. Filmon), and I eagerly anticipate the outcome of that meeting. Perhaps it will lay the foundation for a much better way of dealing with outstanding issues, one of them being the AJI, in this province.

Mr. Chairperson, very briefly, those are some of the opening remarks I would like to make.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Does Madam Minister of Justice have any staff whom she wishes to introduce at this time?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, Mr. Chair, if you could call in the staff, I would appreciate it.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): It would be appropriate for the staff for the Minister of Justice to enter the Chamber at this time.

Madam Minister of Justice, if you could introduce your staff to the committee once they are settled.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I would like to introduce Mr. Bruce MacFarlane, who is the Deputy Minister of the Department of Justice; Mr. Ben Thiessen, who is the Acting Assistant Deputy Minister of Corrections; Mr. Mike Watson, who is the Director of Regional Prosecutions; and Mr. Greg Yost, who is the Executive Director of Policy.

Mr. Chair, I should just clarify at this point. I am here as Minister of Justice, but, also, this evening my colleague the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Praznik) is here, as well. In our efforts to answer the questions in the most comprehensive way, I am wondering about the protocol, if either my colleague the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs or myself may answer the questions or if we both may in an effort to provide the most full answer to the member.

Mr. Robinson: That would be fine.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Yes, you are in accord with that suggestion. The Chair certainly recognizes the honourable Minister of Northern Affairs and welcomes him to the committee.

Madam Minister of Justice, having no preliminary statement and no Minister's Salary on this item, the first item for discussion is 27.1 Aboriginal Justice Initiatives $1,000,000.

The honourable member for Rupertsland, you have a question.

Mr. Robinson: Yes, I do not have a working document to work with here.

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The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): Oh, excuse me. Certainly, the Clerk will provide you with one forthwith.

The Clerk having now provided the honourable member for Rupertsland with a working copy of the document, the first item that was under discussion--perhaps we could just wait while the Clerk is withdrawing from the Chamber to obtain another copy of the document for the Minister of Northern Affairs.

The Clerk having now provided the Minister of Northern Affairs with a copy of the relevant documentation and the member for Rupertsland being in possession of the document, we will now proceed with consideration of the first item.

The first item under discussion 27.1 1. Aboriginal Justice Initiatives $1,000,000. Does the honourable member for Rupertsland have a question on this issue?

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess immediately my response is to get a copy of what the allocations are going to be on the list of the funded initiatives, whether they be test projects throughout, and I certainly look forward to the Minister of Justice and also the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Praznik) providing me with a copy of those test projects that are being financed under this particular item.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there have been a large number of initiatives which have taken place following the Aboriginal Justice report. There have been, as I said, a number of initiatives which have been funded through the Justice budget. I think it is important to note that the list of projects, which I am happy to speak to the member about this evening which are funded by the AJI fund, are not the only initiatives which have been put forward following recommendations from the AJI.

In following recommendations from the AJI, I can tell the member that out of the Justice budget, we have initiatives relating from policing through Prosecutions, through Courts, through Corrections, that follow the whole continuum of the Justice system. Some of the initiatives which have been funded from the AJI fund, is the member looking for some of those initiatives in terms of being able to tell him what the projects are?

Mr. Robinson: I believe it is important for Manitobans and aboriginal people to know where money is being spent on these initiatives. We believe that aboriginal people have made it a point to say that indeed they have that ability to control certain aspects of their lives. I am aware of a few, the Hollow Water holistic healing project, for example, and also the St. Theresa Point court system.

I would like the minister to expand on some of these initiatives that are being funded by this government throughout the province, and, also, I would like to further add my comments to what she has to say about the programs that are currently funded under the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am happy to speak about the projects that we have undertaken. From the Justice budget in the Corrections area, and I will begin with the Corrections area, we have funded the Dakota Ojibway probation services. We have funded the Ma Mawi Centre. We have funded community participation agreements with aboriginal band councils. That is in the area of probations, specific community participation agreements to deal with probation issues.

We have funded the deployment of Community Corrections positions to aboriginal communities. That is in the area of staff time. We have had aboriginal staff consultations.

We fund aboriginal programming in our youth institutions, and that is by making sure there are elders available and additional programming for aboriginal youth. We have projected in this coming year programming for aboriginal offenders. That is new funding through the Department of Justice that was not there previously.

We have provided funding for native spirituality. That is at Agassiz Youth Centre and also the Manitoba Youth Centre. That, by the way, has been constant. Most of these have been constant. We are projecting into this budget. That would make it over four years.

The member has spoken about the AJI reaching its fourth year anniversary, and these projects that I am telling him about are projects which are ongoing, but the new one, as I said, is the aboriginal offender programming.

We have funded, and are funding in this year, aboriginal cultural awareness training. We are also funding community resource centres in aboriginal communities, and this year, for the first time, funding for community justice committees in aboriginal communities. That is a new initiative that is coming up in this year, again, funded through the Department of Justice.

We have honorary probation officers in aboriginal communities. That has been a four-year commitment.

We have further initiatives within Corrections, but I think that is a start. Perhaps I can add to that a little bit, but what I was looking at really was from budget allocations.

Perhaps I can speak more fully around programming of native elders, local elders council, native liaison workers, aboriginal-specific substance abuse programs, aboriginal cultural awareness training, the process of aboriginal recruitment, the Dakota Ojibway probation services and Aboriginal Advisory Committees within our institutions, aboriginal staff consultations, some of the aboriginal programming in Community Corrections. Native spirituality, I believe I mentioned. So we have quite a large number of program initiatives and dollars allocated in the area of Corrections.

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We are certainly looking at our staffing in the area of Corrections, and in Community Corrections, aboriginal staff is in the range of 15 percent, and Community and Youth Corrections, 13 percent.

I will move on then to the Prosecutions area. Within Prosecutions, we see the First Nations policing policy and we have had funds projected in ever-increasing dollars over the past four years to enter into the First Nations community policing agreement. As the member knows, we are actively working with, I believe it is 63 communities around the First Nations policing policy, and we have completed the DOPS agreement under the First Nations policing policy.

In addition, the member has mentioned the Hollow Water Community Holistic Healing Circle which we participate in and fund and intend to continue funding this year. By the way, that is from the AJI fund. That is the first that I have mentioned specifically from the AJI fund. Also, from the AJI fund is some funding for the negotiation of First Nations community policing services, the travel required. That is the member whom we have seconded from the RCMP, the travel fund for him to travel to all of the 63 communities to start the process of consultation.

From the AJI fund, we also have identified funds for consultation. Those consultations are what the communities themselves will do, as required under the First Nations policing policy, so that they can determine the type of policing service that they want as a community to suit their needs.

In addition, under Public Prosecutions, we have provided a grant to the Winnipeg Police Services for an aboriginal training program. That also came from the AJI.

In Pukatawagan, Pukatawagan has developed a sentencing circle process that operates as part of their diversion process allowing for aboriginal offenders to be sentenced within the community. Waywayseecappo has also developed a sentencing circle process that involves community elders in the sentencing recommendation process.

In the division of Justice called Protection of Rights, we have money identified for the northern paralegal project under Legal Aid. In this, three paralegals who are fluent in Cree and English are based out of Thompson and The Pas. These paralegals fly into communities in advance of the court party to help improve the quality of service being provided by duty counsel by interviewing clients, filling out Legal Aid applications, interviewing witnesses, preparing the criminal docket matters for lawyers. The paralegals also provide services that are not available in northern communities such as drop-in clinics, community legal education services and addressing public interest legal issues.

Also identified is, again, funding through the Department of Justice, the Human Rights Commission. The Human Rights Commission began a Focus [phonetic] project on issues affecting the equality of persons of aboriginal ancestry in December 1993.

The project which will last about two years involves co-ordinating a variety of projects including assisting the Community Legal Education Association to hold a human rights conference in December 1993 on the theme, Aboriginal Peoples, The Untapped Workforce, [phonetic] having a series of aboriginal speakers present their views to the commission, purchasing a number of videos on aboriginal history and issues to be part of the commission's free library, working with The Pas Friendship Centre on a video on discrimination to be presented in several native languages, and addressing various aboriginal groups and participating in cultural awareness workshops.

In Courts division, we have an Aboriginal Court Worker Program, and this again is funded through Justice. The aboriginal court worker program is a service provided for native people who become involved in the criminal justice system and who need assistance or guidance. The program workers act as liaisons with police, counsel or probation services. They advise the accused of alternative courses of action and legal aid, contacting counsel, bail applications and contacting relatives or social agencies as well as maintaining contact with reserves or First Nations organizations.

In addition, in Courts, as I mentioned from the AJI funding and the member has noted, out of the AJI fund, the St. Theresa Point youth court model.

Also, in Courts, we have aboriginal magistrates recruiting. The department has nine aboriginal magistrates who have jurisdiction over such matters as swearing documents, assessing fines according to legislation and releasing or remanding into custody persons who are accused of having committed offences. The department is currently recruiting additional magistrates.

As I mentioned, we are always looking at the recruitment of aboriginal staff and both regional and Winnipeg courts are involved in this. Then the aboriginal court initiatives, the staff in Courts participate, along with members of the criminal justice system, in a number of aboriginal court initiatives. The use of elders, sentencing circles, healing circles and the greater use of community involvement are becoming more commonplace, and Courts continue to explore additional options with First Nations people in order to provide more culturally appropriate responses for young offenders and adult court.

I just have a couple of others that are from the Corrections area which I think may be important to make sure they are on the record. There is funding for culturally appropriate programming for aboriginal offenders across Manitoba who are convicted of spousal abuse. I think that is an important area.

Secondly, funding for the development and the implementation of a cultural awareness training program for aboriginal offenders on probation in the Brandon area, and, three, funding for the acquisition of video equipment to assist the reintegration of young offenders at the Agassiz Youth Centre who are from the remote communities in northern Manitoba; and, fourthly, funding for a conference of Corrections and Child and Family Services workers representing 10 communities in the Southeast Tribal Council and funding for the province's share of a special education program in Winnipeg designed to reduce the youth custody population. This project was entitled the youth development program. It was jointly run by the Community and Youth Corrections branch and the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The program was comprised of a comprehensive educational component, an individual and group therapy component and broadly based support services network.

There is one project in Shamattawa which I think is also worth bringing to the attention of the committee just early on in our discussions. In 1985, Corrections identified that a very large number of Shamattawa youth were being sentenced to custody. At the initiative of this branch, the federal Departments of Indian Affairs, Health and Welfare, Justice and the Solicitor General, as well as a number of aboriginal agencies, were called together to develop a more co-ordinated approach to providing services in this community. Enhanced recreation funding, a fly-in camp and other program initiatives resulted.

In 1989 the federal government agreed to contribute a sum of money, slightly over $200,000, to a justice worker project in Shamattawa in conjunction with the contribution of staff support training and supervision. By reassigning internal resources, Corrections supported the project to its completion in 1992. Now I know that the completion date of the project is a couple of years ago, but I believe the effects are still being noted. When this project began on July 1, 1989, 18 Shamattawa youth were in youth correctional facilities. On May 30, 1992, this had decreased to five, and while other factors may have contributed, I understand that in 1995 there are perhaps one or two youths in custody.

So those are some of the initiatives which run across the divisions in the Department of Justice, funding either through the Justice budget or through the AJI.

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Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I do want to thank the minister for outlining some of the initiatives. It gives us good ideas to where we would like to direct our questions and what areas we would like to touch upon. I thank her for the comments that she has made and some of these things we were not aware of, being where we are. It is good to know that these positive things are happening throughout Manitoba.

I believe that it has always been my practice as a member in this House to commend the ministers of the various departments on any positive initiatives that occur, particularly when it relates to aboriginal people, and I will do that again tonight.

Many times we are not aware about some of these initiatives that the minister has just outlined, and I would like to begin perhaps with the matter that the minister alluded to earlier, and that is that the justice system as was recommended in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry has to be more sensitive to the needs of aboriginal people. The commissioners did recommend extensive changes to the justice system in this province and these things included aboriginal employment at all levels in the justice system. I know the minister talked about some cross-cultural initiatives that have been happening with staff.

I am wondering if the staff of the provincial jails, let us take for example, and other areas of the department have increased with aboriginal people, being that aboriginal people appear to be the largest consumers of the justice system. That is a very difficult thing for me to say, being a member of a First Nation, but we do employ a lot of people, jail guards, probation workers and social workers throughout this province. Being that we are a very small percentage of the overall population of this province, nevertheless we overpopulate the jails and the justice system.

I am wondering if the minister will just comment on any initiatives to bring the number of employed people at the provincial jails and any part of the justice system, whether that has improved or not in the last four years.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we have been aware of the need to not only do awareness among all staff members of the needs of aboriginal people within our institutions but also to have staff who are fully qualified who are aboriginal people and can be sensitive to the issues that these people have within our institutions.

I have some figures for the member. First of all, in the area of probation officers, there are 23 of 100 probation officers who are aboriginal people. So that number is a significant increase, I am told, since the AJI. We have 23 Juvenile Counsellors I, one Juvenile Counsellor II, one Juvenile Counsellor IV, two teachers, one trades instructor, four clerical people and five spiritual leaders or elders within our provincial institutions.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, the AJI, when they tabled their report, concluded that the higher rates of crime among aboriginal people could be attributed to the despair and the dependency and the anger and the frustration and the sense of injustice that seems to exist in aboriginal communities, all which they concluded stem from the cultural and community breakdowns that have occurred over the past century.

I just want to know--I know that the minister in her remarks talked about the positive things that have been happening--whether or not she can give this committee an idea as to whether or not there has been improved relations with respect to the justice system and its relationship with aboriginal people throughout Manitoba, First Nations communities and other aboriginal communities.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, in my earlier remarks I spoke about our efforts to make the system more sensitive and some of the projects we are dealing with, and we spoke about the Hollow Water, Pukatawagan, Waywayseecappo projects within those communities. We are also working with MKO; the members knows that that is the umbrella group for about 25 reserves. We are working with MKO to establish local justice communities.

We are also working with a number of the southern communities to look at what their interests are and how they would like to develop. We have also been trying to look at initiatives which have been brought forward by the communities and look at how we can develop those within the justice system.

Then the community participation agreements I think also really deserve some discussion because they provide community support services such as crime prevention, court report writing, probation supervision for youth and adults.

I have in front of me 21 communities who have signed community participation agreements, and I am not sure if the member would like those on the record: Berens River First Nation, Bloodvein First Nation, Chemawawin First Nation, Cross Lake First Nation, Fisher River First Nation, God's River First Nation, Grand Rapids First Nation, Lake Manitoba First Nation, Lake St. Martin Band, Little Grand Rapids Band, Little Saskatchewan First Nation, Mathias Colomb First Nation, Moose Lake Cree First Nation, Nelson House First Nation, Oxford House First Nation, Poplar River First Nation, Sagkeeng First Nation, Sandy Bay First Nation, Sioux Valley First Nation, South Indian Lake community council, Waywayseecappo Band.

That is the list of the community participation agreements at the moment.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the minister would elaborate on what the community participation programs are meant to do.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is to allow the band to provide correctional services that are culturally appropriate to that particular community. So it is not a generalized approach that is then given to each community, but it is to allow each community itself to develop the correctional services that are most appropriate to them.

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(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

The areas of support services are the ones that I have mentioned. They can look at crime prevention programs that are most appropriate to their particular band, court report writing, probation supervision for youth of their band and also for adults within their band.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I know that we are short of time on this particular item, but there are a multitude of issues that are related to this. I do not want to be the one to be holding up this committee. I would like to move along to other areas.

One of the other areas that was identified by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was a provincial court study that was compiled by the Justice department. It reported that aboriginal persons are 1.34 times more likely to be held in pretrial detention, and for aboriginal women ages 18 to 34 the difference was about 2.4 times.

For adult males between the ages of 18 and 34, aboriginal persons spent 1.5 times longer in pretrial detention, and aboriginal detainees have a 21 percent chance of being granted bail, while nonaboriginal detainees had a 56 percent chance. Since that report was tabled, Mr. Chairperson, I would like to find out if these numbers have improved.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I would like to start by saying where the court has refused bail. Where the court has refused bail, it is based on the facts of that case. It is based on the seriousness of the criminal activity that the accused is being brought forward on behalf of, so I do not think we can ever lose sight of that. However, for some other issues, the community participation agreements that I have been speaking about, they can provide the bail supervision. So that is a change within the last three to four years, and that is an ability for the communities, where these agreements have been concluded, to allow the person to remain within their own community.

Also, I have spoken about, I believe, the appointment of community magistrates bringing the justice system closer to the community, and with the appointment of community magistrates, it can allow for the bail hearing to take place within the community.

So those two steps are now available and more frequently used. We do not have an update on the figures from that study. However, I can tell the member about the action which has taken place.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, another area that is of concern to aboriginal leadership and aboriginal people generally is the circuit court system that we have, and I know that there has been some communication, particularly with God's River and Gods Narrows, in the last little while. The judges recommended--when I refer to the judges, I am referring to the commissioners of the AJI--they recommended that judges must be prepared to go into an aboriginal community and stay until the dockets are completed, and Legal Aid must implement reform so that no further delays occur pending appointment of counsel so that the accused persons can meet with their lawyers at least a day before the court hearing.

Now, we have had a lot of discussion on this matter. I know that corrections are being made in God's River and Gods Narrows, but because of the forest fire situation recently, the most recent court sitting was cancelled until late September. However, the community leadership from those two communities still tell me that there are remands of cases that sometimes are up to a year long.

I am just wondering what the comment of the minister may be with respect to correcting that situation in some of these communities that do have these remands that sometimes go beyond a year.

Mrs. Vodrey: I have to say that I do not have information that says there are not court dates available before the year. So that date is a date that is longer than the current information which I have, which is based on recent visits to the community by officials. So I just feel it is important to get on the record that there seems to be some difference of opinion in terms of the length of time.

However, I think the overriding concern is that there has been some delay in the northern courts, and that has been acknowledged, and the delay in the northern courts has come for a number of reasons. The member mentions forest fires now. It has generally been as a result of weather and being unable to get into some of the remote communities. So we have had a senior planning group which is made up of representatives from Courts, from Prosecutions, from Legal Aid, who have gone up into the North.

Most recently, I am told, a week and a half to two weeks ago there was a meeting of about 28 officials who are looking at a process to try and deal with some delay which has occurred in the northern courts, and I can tell you that the approach that I am going to speak about is one which has judicial support as well.

For lack of a better term, the approach is just being called the blitz approach, and it is an approach to try and deal with the fact that there is in fact some delay, and we want to try and clear it up. This approach will involve the court party going up and making more frequent visits until they have reached a point in which they feel that we have managed to overcome the delay.

I think that the important part of the blitz approach is that it has really been a co-operative approach. There has been a recognition from all parts, and I say that there is judicial support, as well, from all parts of the justice system, that we really want to try and deal with the delay, and the length of that delay seems to vary community to community, so there is now an active approach. I believe that the blitz approach is in place. I do not have the date of the first visit under that particular term but I understand that it is to be shortly.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess the point is that the recommendation that was put forth by the AJI, and not only that it is still ongoing today, is that chiefs and councils and community leaders in northern communities would like to see a court party go into a particular community and complete the docket on that particular visit as opposed to remanding certain cases for periods of what we have experienced here at three to four months. I am just wondering if there have been corrections made to that as well.

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am not sure if the member knows but the length of stay of the court party, whether the court party flies in at all, in fact, based on weather conditions or other reasons is judicially decided, and so it is a matter of the judiciary determining whether they will attend and for how long they are willing to stay. It is not something that this minister can specifically order to have happen.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I am aware of how the circuit court system works. In some areas of the province there appears to be no problem. On the other hand, in some other areas we have had complaints from communities that there have been these delays where we have a court party that comes in in the morning and they are out by four or five in the evening. We had one example where a judge could not fly at night time and wanted to leave the community by a certain hour, and to the chief and council of that particular community they did not feel that was fair considering the size of the docket on that particular day.

I would like to ask the minister, one of the other recommendations with respect to delays is the AJI recommended that it should not take more than 180 days from the date an individual is charged until the trial begins. The judiciary should establish and enforce time limits and reflect this goal. I would just like to get the minister's response to that proposition that is now four years old.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we would view that as a reasonable time limit, certainly when we make an effort to be sure that there is court times available. That is why we have the blitz approach.

As I said, we have recognized that there has become, for whatever number of reasons, some delay in some of the northern circuit courts that we would like to reduce, so we are certainly looking at doing that. However, as I am sure the member knows, it may be that time is available, and Prosecutions may wish to proceed, defence counsel may not. Defence counsel may choose not to pick a day that is within that time frame, and we have found that with courts across Manitoba.

There may be dates available, and those dates simply are not the dates chosen. So I think we need to distinguish between whether or not there are dates available and whether or not those dates are in fact used by counsel.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, it is widely known, particularly by the aboriginal leadership, and also it was reaffirmed by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry--and I am getting into the area here of juries--that there has been systemic discrimination against aboriginal people. Studies conducted by the AJI confirm that aboriginal people are underrepresented on juries in northern Manitoba and are almost completely absent from juries in the city of Winnipeg. Aboriginal people are not properly represented even on juries trying an aboriginal person accused of committing an offence against another aboriginal person in an aboriginal community.

I am just wondering what the minister's department is considering to correct that particular area of substantial concern to many First Nations and aboriginal communities in Manitoba.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I will do my best to answer the question with the information that I have, and if there is anything further, I am happy to get back to the member.

The point of the jury trial is that an individual is entitled to an impartial jury. People drawn or selected from jury duty--I understand there is a number of ways in which individuals can enter into the pool of people who may in fact be selected, and I would remind the member as well that potential jurors are drawn from the community where the case is tried. The selection is governed by the process of the Criminal Code. There is a specific process, and it is regulated by the trial judge. If, for some reason, individuals feel that this has not been fair or that the trial has not been fair, then it can be raised at appeal.

Mr. Robinson: I am quite certain that the whole matter of juries and how aboriginal people can become more involved in that whole area will come up again in the time to come, and the minister need not reply to my question but if she would get back to me by letter on this particular issue. I guess I am aware of the time, and being that it is quite late, I know there are other things that are in store for tomorrow's order of business in this House, but I wonder if the minister would get back to me on the whole matter of juries and how aboriginal people could have a greater role in the whole jury system.

I was interested to hear, in the minister's remarks, about the sentencing circles. I am aware of their role, but there is one that I was not aware of, and that is in the area of spousal abuse. That is a predominant reality of everyday life in aboriginal communities, unfortunately, in many communities throughout Manitoba.

I am wondering, with her comments, what activities are these programs geared towards? Is it geared towards restitution for the person that has committed the crime, and is there a holistic healing method in dealing with some of these matters?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, first of all, I am told, in a general way all of our programs are being adapted to be cultural sensitive. In areas of treatment of offenders in domestic abuse, we have both a short-term program and a long-term program and both of those types of programs are being adapted to be culturally sensitive. For example in The Pas area, I am told, our probation officers will go into the community, they will have one or two days of cultural awareness and then they will take the program which is in the process of being generally adapted and look at how it can be adapted and work within that community.

I am also told that Waywayseecappo has been part of a two-year pilot project, and that particular pilot project has looked at a more holistic process of dealing with spousal abuse, dealing with both the education about spousal abuse and also ways to deal with the offenders.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, as the minister is aware, in Manitoba we have primarily four nations of First Nations people. We have the Dene, we have the Ojibway, we have the Cree, we have the Dakota. In the traditional forms of government of these four nations that I have outlined, they have still within their reach the traditional understandings of governing themselves, and it is primarily a patrilineal society in this province.

In British Columbia, on the other hand, and also in other areas of Canada, among the Six Nations people, it is a matrilineal society where the woman plays a much more prominent role in the systems of government governing that particular nation.

I appreciate the minister's remarks on cultural sensitivity with respect to the initiatives that she talked about in Waywayseecappo. My question on this particular issue, because this issue of spousal abuse or domestic violence, whichever way we may want to term it, is becoming a more serious problem daily in spite of this government's and other governments' zero tolerance for matters like that.

As it pertains to aboriginal communities, I am wondering if this government and also this department particularly could work with community leadership in having, as they are doing in the Yukon, other people in the community, elders, mothers-in-law, fathers-in-law, on the father's side, the father or the mother, all be part of these healing circles or the sentencing circles, as we call them.

To what degree are we examining the traditional systems, the government, in the modern-day scheme of things, in the way we are initiating these projects with First Nations communities? I am wondering to what degree we are using the traditional beliefs of the four nations particular to Manitoba.

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that when a course is given within a community, an elder participates in the giving of that course and gives certainly a part of the course. Also, the Aboriginal Advisory Committee which we have set up advises on the content of the course, and I am told that as a result of that committee, there is a sensitivity to the four nation groups.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the minister would elaborate on what the Aboriginal Advisory Committee is and whom do they advise.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there are two types of committees that I think need to be defined. The Aboriginal Advisory Committee that we have been speaking about is a staff group and that staff group advises on the content of programs such as the domestic violence program. Then there is an advisory committee within each of our institutions and that committee is made up of staff, community and elders, and what they do is they operate within each institution and provide advice within each of the institutions. There are elders at each one of our provincial institutions.

Mr. Robinson: On that very subject, Mr. Chairperson, I am wondering if the aboriginal languages or the aboriginal language component is an important consideration in the work of these committees.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, first of all, in the area of recruitment, in looking at the recruitment one of the qualifications that is being considered is the ability to communicate in one of the native languages. We have an aboriginal staffperson on the staff recruitment committee to ensure that in fact there is a communication ability for the new person who has been recruited. Secondly, I am told that of the courses or programs which are delivered within the communities, a portion of the program is delivered in the language of that community.

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Mr. Robinson: Through my other involvement prior to being elected in this House, I was involved in the struggle of off-reserve First Nations people not only in Winnipeg but in other areas of this province and in this country. We have come to realize that over half of the treaty and Status Indians across this country now reside in off-reserve environments like Winnipeg. The minister has talked about some of the initiatives that are happening in First Nations and native communities throughout this province.

I am wondering what plans are there. I know she talked about the Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre and also some other off-reserve-oriented programs, but I am wondering, these things that we have been talking about on sentencing circles, whether the minister would feel that would also apply in off-reserve environments like Winnipeg, which has been considered the largest Indian reserve in Canada.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mrs. Vodrey: I can tell the member that we have been working with the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg, who have been interested in developing a proposal for aboriginal justice services. I have to say that this is just in the proposal stage now and obviously would be required to be looked at in the light of all the services which are being offered but that I think it is important to note that there has been some discussion with a formal group.

Also I am told that we have had a three-year project on domestic violence in Winnipeg, which has been seen to try and look at multicultural issues and aboriginal issues. Response to aboriginal communities has been also a part of that and has been seen as one specific area to be looked at.

Mr. Robinson: I do look forward to further conversations with the minister, particularly on the diversion program for youth at the Aboriginal Centre in Winnipeg. I understand that project deserves a lot of support. I certainly want to make a pitch for it here tonight, and I do encourage the province to be involved in the initiative that the minister has just talked about. I know that it is in the preliminary stages at this time and at the discussion stage, but I do recommend highly for this government and this minister and her officials to seriously consider that, considering the high number of aboriginal youth that wind up in the justice system.

I would like to move on to the area of First Nations policing policy, Mr. Chairperson, and I know that the province of Manitoba entered into an agreement with the federal government and the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council.

I would like to ask the minister at what level or to what degree--and I know she mentioned it earlier in her remarks that there has been discussion with the 61 First Nations across this province on initiating and developing First Nations policing policy in this province.

I am just wondering to what degree and who has been talked to by this government. Are there any negotiations that look positive for implementing the policing programs in tribal council areas or individual First Nations communities?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I see that all of the communities, to my knowledge, have been consulted with and that is by our representative on loan from the RCMP, and that is Paul Currie who has been the person who had been doing the direct work with each of the communities. Now the community's role is to do a consultation process, and it is a community consultation process within their own community for the communities to look at what type of policing service they would like. As I mentioned earlier, there has been funding made available under the AJI for some of the costs which may be related to that kind of consultation.

Some other communities are a little bit further in that they are in the process of having spent some time consulting, that we will look for them to come up with some of the plans that they would like to put forward. There are two communities further that I believe we are very close to signing an agreement with, and that is the status.

Mr. Robinson: I want to thank the minister for her comments on that. I know that the Southeast Resource Development corporation that represents the communities in the southeastern part of Manitoba have also been talking about a policing initiative to serve the communities they serve in those areas on the east side of Lake Winnipeg.

I would like to ask the minister, the Island Lake Tribal Council has recently, meaning about February of this year, sent a Letter of Intent to the minister, February 6 to be precise, and this was upon the urging of the federal representative for the aboriginal policing directorate that the federal government would be prepared to enter into an agreement with the Island Lake Tribal Council on policing. However, I believe the commitment they were waiting for was from this government on a tripartite process.

* (2350)

As I said, the Letter of Intent was forwarded on February 6 of this year but there has been no response to that letter to the Island Lake Tribal Council. Another letter was sent on May 24 to the minister's office but there has been no response to that letter as well.

I am just wondering, the Island Lake communities of Wasagamack, St. Theresa Point and Garden Hill are probably good examples of where policing initiatives are drastically needed to keep law and order in those four communities. I wonder if the minister could give an updated status report, if you will, on that particular request from the Island Lake Tribal Council.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, as I look through the information available to me, I see that the Island Lake Tribal Council communities, a number of them are in the consultation process right now. I see that one is moving from the consultation process and into the negotiation process. I am sorry; three are looking at that point.

If the federal representative had been urging us on, the federal representative is fully aware it is a tripartite agreement, and this is exactly the issue that we always come back to. There are three parties. There is the federal government, the provincial government and also the community, and I believe this government has a record of concluding the First Nations policing agreements, but they are detailed. They are extremely detailed, and they are extremely complex.

The First Nations policing policy framework requires that certain things be done, that there be fully noted and thought-out and worked-through processes such as training, accountability, financial accountability, and so on.

So though this government, I can honestly say I believe we have really been aggressively working. As I have said before, when I returned from Ottawa--with a commitment from the federal government that they were prepared to proceed under the terms as we knew it of the First Nations policing policy, that the new federal government had not made any changes--on the Thursday afternoon, we had our representative in the air Sunday evening on the way to those communities. So I believe that this government has really proceeded in good faith and has proceeded as quickly as possible, but these are complex legal agreements which really must be for the benefit of all three parties, and particularly the citizens of the community, and must be done carefully.

So I would only say that I see the status of some of the Island Lake Tribal Council communities, I see that some are proceeding to negotiation phase, and I think it is important that that negotiation phase for everyone concerned proceeds carefully. That is how we will be doing it, because we understand they are all different, too. We understand that it is not sort of an agreement that we then lay on one community and then another.

So that is how we are proceeding, and I hope I have cleared up any question about this government being the one who has not been participating, because I can assure the member we certainly have.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, the Island Lake Tribal Council does most of their work collectively with the four communities that I mentioned. They have informed us, whether or not this dialogue is happening or not, that they are doing this as a collective effort and to date have not received any word from this government. In fact, they stated to us that the only discussions they have had have been with the federal government.

I am wondering when all three parties will sit down and begin the long, tedious negotiating that has to occur in order to implement First Nations policing in those four communities that I talked about.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I do not want to dispute what the member is bringing forward as information which has been given to him, but I can only give him information on the other side, and that is to the best of my knowledge what this government's participation has been, and I can only tell him on the other side that this government has been a full participant. As I explained, the consultation has taken place in some communities. Other communities, as I see, are progressing into the negotiation phase, so I am puzzled by some of the communities making the claim that this has not happened, because my information certainly indicates that it has.

Mr. Robinson: Tomorrow, when we resume in this committee, Mr. Chairperson, I would like to table letters that I was copied from the Island Lake Tribal Council that were addressed to this minister, as well as a Letter of Intent to proceed on a First Nations policing initiative for those four communities in northern Manitoba, signed by Chief Joe Guy Wood, who is chairperson of the Island Lake Tribal Council.

So I will be tabling that information that I have before me tomorrow, because I do not want to dispute what the minister is saying. I am sure she is well aware of what goes on in her department, but according to the information we have that has been provided to us by the Island Lake Tribal Council, it appears that no dialogue has occurred with respect to policing in those four communities of St. Theresa Point, Wasagamack, Garden Hill.

I would like to move on to another area, if I may.

Mrs. Vodrey: Perhaps the member would like to table that information tonight so that I can have a look at it and be prepared for the meeting tomorrow afternoon or whenever this committee resumes. As I said, I am more than happy to look at it, and if the member is tabling it, it would be helpful to table it now.

Mr. Robinson: Yes, I will gladly do that, Mr. Chairperson.

I would just like to move back a little bit here briefly, Mr. Chairperson, with respect to magistrates that we have in Manitoba, and I would just like to know how many are aboriginal. I believe that was mentioned earlier. I cannot recall the details.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the information that I gave earlier this evening was that the department has nine aboriginal magistrates who have jurisdiction over such matters as swearing documents, assessing fines according to legislation, and releasing or remanding into custody persons who are accused of having committed offences.

The department is currently recruiting additional magistrates and this is also part of our northern court strategy. Though I spoke about the blitz approach in terms of the court party, we recognize, as well, the appointment of community magistrates may also be quite helpful in terms of bringing justice directly to the community.

Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 12 midnight, committee rise.

Call in the Speaker.

IN SESSION

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being after 10 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).