1st-36th, Volume 25b - Committee of Supply - Department of Government Services

VOL. XLV No. 25B - 8 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 26, 1995

Monday, June 26, 1995

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, June 26, 1995

The House met at 8 p.m.,

ORDERS OF THE DAY

(Continued)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good evening. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The committee will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Government Services.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1. Administration (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 71.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Chairperson, I have some questions that deal with the evacuation of some towns in northern Manitoba, the ones that are fleeing from the fires that we have burning up there right now.

All I need is a summary of what has happened so far, with the numbers of evacuations that have been taking place, the number of fires that are burning and people going helter-skelter. I want to get myself caught up with who is where, from where, and where they are staying, and all that sort of thing, just a summary of where they are at. Maybe we can start with Leaf Rapids first.

Hon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): We will just get an update for you on that, and I believe it will be coming up here in a second.

I will start with the Gods Lake Narrows situation, because I have a reasonable handle on that one. We began to evacuate yesterday from Portage la Prairie and have been proceeding with that evacuation. I believe, as we speak, all evacuees who were in Portage la Prairie are now returned home, transported back to Gods Lake Narrows. However, some of these evacuees have travelled into, we believe, Winnipeg, so we are attempting to notify them of the availability of transportation back to their homes or attempting to locate them and co-ordinate flights to get them back to their homes. I know they will be appreciative of that.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)

As far as Leaf Rapids--I think the member is aware of the unforeseen circumstances that caused the second evacuation to occur. I guess it is a good-news, bad-news scenario in the sense that because the evacuations were relatively close together, some of the folks had not returned home yet and had remained in Thompson and some in The Pas, we are told. So they had not gone back to Leaf yet. The other folks were moved, about 1,100 residents, to Lynn Lake. They are housed, some in private accommodations, some in accommodation arranged in the communities. Some are actually camping, as well.

As far as the South Indian Lake area, those residents are still remaining in Thompson and for the most part are housed there. I believe a few have made other arrangements, apart from those made in co-operative discussion with the community and with Emergency Measures and other government departments. There is progress being made at that fire, but it is still a little bit premature to try to have those folks move back home just yet.

Granville Lake, again, the firefighting is continuing there. Sixty-three residents of this community have been evacuated to Wabowden and Thompson. What we have done, because certainly with any issue around the disaster, and certainly this is an extremely illustrative case of that, there is a tremendous amount of stress associated with the circumstances these people are facing and that they are in, and so we have established critical incident stress debriefing teams, and these are folks who are trained and able to work with, in conjunction with, the evacuees to address their concerns, hopefully help them to work through some of the emotional trauma they are facing.

* (2010)

It is certainly almost impossible, I think, for most of us to appreciate, who have not come from a northern community or have not been through an evacuation process, what it would be like. I guess, you know, I have certainly been touched by the situations that these folks have been faced with, and I have learned from my discussion with them a lot more about their feelings and about the concerns that they have.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Certainly there are no easy answers, as the member knows, with the case of Leaf Rapids. We were besieged, and I understand it is not untypical of situations like this, by requests to get back home. People wanted to be in their homes, and at the same time, in retrospect, many people may be now observing that it was too soon to go back, but these are situations where there are unforeseen circumstances that arise, very, very unpredictable circumstances.

That is the nature of fire. I know just last year on our farm, I was doing some cleanup involving myself with some fire, and I am lucky it did not get away from me. So I have been through it on a small scale in my family farmyard. Once that fire gets going, it is incredible how fast it can proceed and move and change in different directions. It takes on a mind of its own, it seems.

We need to recognize that there are a lot of variables at work in nature, and certainly it is unfortunate, the consequences we are seeing because of that truth in northern Manitoba this year. I hope that gives you a bit of an overview.

Mr. Struthers: Yes, it does. I just have a few more specific questions about where some of them are located. The people that have been evacuated from South Indian Lake, you said they are staying in Thompson. What facilities are they using within Thompson to house the people from South Indian Lake?

Mr. Pallister: Various facilities within the community: friendship centre, school gymnasium, Keewatin Community Centre, Deerwood School. I know that in Thompson--I will not pronounce the name of the friendship centre properly so I will not attempt to, but the friendship centre has been used to house some of the older people that have respiratory problems or where their health is of some concern. So they are being housed in the friendship centre. I am aware that is one specific case.

Mr. Struthers: Is there anyone from Lynn Lake who has been evacuated from there or is everybody from Lynn Lake still in the community?

Mr. Pallister: At the present time, and we hope of course that conditions are such that that can continue.

Mr. Struthers: Anyone who is evacuated from a town and does not go to say, a prescribed locality that your department has mentioned, does your department pay for them to stay anywhere else? I am thinking of a hotel or lodgings with some relatives or a friend. Is there any money that goes towards those evacuees who stay other than at the community places?

Mr. Pallister: I would ask the member to understand that we are talking in general terms, and there are innumerable possible combinations and permutations of events that can occur around a disaster, dependent on many things, including the amount of time that our department and the communities have to put their disaster preparedness plans into place, to line up appropriate housing, these types of things.

Generally speaking, we will arrange communal, for lack of a better word, housing for all evacuees. If there are unique or special circumstances such as the example I gave you, where some of the older people needed special, separate housing, we will attempt to arrange that whenever possible.

In the case of the Gods Lake Narrows Band, I know that there were some women there--in fact, we had two births during the evacuation to Portage la Prairie. Women in their advanced stages of pregnancy were provided with rooms at a local hotel, as were some of the elders who were in extreme--I will not say extreme, but their physical condition was such that they did require that level of accommodation.

But generally speaking, we will only cover for the cost of communal housing except in those types of situations I used as an illustration. If someone is able to stay with family or friends in a community, that is of course acceptable and good for them. We would in that instance cover the costs of their food, provided they have receipts or evidence of incurring some cost, of course. I hope that gives a little bit of a better elaboration for the member.

Mr. Struthers: Yes, that does. The last comment I want to make was that we did talk with a woman who was 104 years old from Gods Lake in Portage, who was slated to go sleep on the arena floor, but one of her friends stepped in and she got moved to better accommodations in Southport. I know that those exceptions are made, and I thank the minister for that information. That is all I have.

Mr. Pallister: I thank the member for his interest and his interest in the past. I know this is, as he understands, as I think all members understand, a most emotional circumstance for the folks that are thrust out of their normal place of residence and forced into a new community. It is a difficult thing for them. It places some difficulties of course as well on the host communities, to accommodate and to provide as best they can for the needs of the evacuees.

It is certainly, I think an illustration, as I am beginning to understand the process, of how we can more effectively work together among government departments and with the communities with various levels of government. I am told by all accounts that we are doing a much better job than we did in the past, in '89 for example, in giving some element of certainty and some better understanding of the structure that exists for people who are evacuated and for host communities so that we do not add those kinds of uncertainties to the already obvious uncertainties that cause the situation to develop in the first place. I think that is good. I invite the member, as I have in the past, if he has other comments, suggestions or concerns, I welcome those inquiries on his part.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I believe the Senate of Canada is entertaining some sort of a bill at this time, the intent of which is to put restrictions on cars as to the mode of fuel that they can use. They have to phase out gasoline over a period of years. I think California is looking at this and I know that the government is looking at alternative fuels for the fleet. I wonder if the minister could inform us as to what has been happening lately in this area.

* (2020)

Mr. Pallister: We certainly are conscious of the number of these environmental initiatives in our department because we are pursuing them. As far as the specific one the member alludes to, I cannot give him detail on that at this point.

I can tell him that we do use, for example in the fleet vehicle agency, recycled oil. I can tell him in terms of sustainable development concepts that we are doing a paper recycling program known as Paper Rescue that you might have heard of, which was implemented back in '90 originally. What that does is--it has expanded now into 44 different locations across the province. We are saving a lot of trees. The member I am sure appreciates that. In '94, 110 tons of paper was recovered and recycled by this program alone. No doubt the member has seen throughout the Legislative Building itself the blue baskets for recycling purposes.

As well, over '94 over 14,500 Winnipeg telephone directories were collected from government offices in Winnipeg. That is about 24 metric tonnes of material that was diverted from landfill sites. That is a saving of over 400 full-grown trees.

Newspaper recycling: That has been taking place here and is implemented in the Legislature itself and is implemented in 27 other buildings. That is going on.

Composting at the Brandon Correctional Institution--in our government greenhouse we have been composting kitchen waste from the Woodsworth and Legislative Building since November of '92. In fact, the Norquay building as well joined that program last year and to date approximately 16 metric tonnes of kitchen-preparation food wastes have been diverted from landfill. Composting of grass clippings is going on at the Agassiz Youth Centre in Portage and the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

Refillable cup program. Aluminum, plastic container collection bins have been set up throughout government cafeterias. Bottles, rigid plastic containers, we have implemented that in several facilities--cooking oil recycling.

An interesting area to me, I guess, is the water conservation pilot project where we retrofitted numerous of the toilet tanks and the faucets in 41 government facilities. They have been retrofitted with water conservation devices and we use less water now with every flush. This is important too. As well, a 2 percent reduction in building water consumption in '94-95 fiscal year has been achieved as well. Numerous initiatives along the lines of the sustainable development concept that the member eludes to with his question.

Mr. Maloway: My question though specifically was to deal with the fleet and the attempt of the government to reduce the gasoline consumption and whether or not any initiative was being taken in the area of propane conversions, because that has worked with some fleets.

Mr. Pallister: The member alludes to alternative fuels, and we did a trial with propane. The technology was not advanced to the degree that there were significant cost savings that could be generated there for the taxpayer or in terms of environmental degradation that there were significant gains to be had in that case either.

I think the single most significant illustration though of how we are working toward a cleaner environment is the fact that we have, with this particular special operating agency, 550 fewer vehicles burning fossil fuel right now in this province than we did just three years ago. There is considerable saving to be had there. So I would think that we are making progress in that regard.

Mr. Maloway: Then how many cars did the minister outfit with the propane conversion units, and how many are there currently in the fleet?

Mr. Pallister: Four or five years ago this was a trial that was done at that time and there were less than a dozen vehicles utilized at that time. This is not to rule out the fact that it could be something that could be tried in the future.

Mr. Maloway: I appreciate the minister's response, and I would encourage him to take another look at it because, as he knows, a good chunk of Winnipeg cabs are burning propane and something, I think, certainly worth looking into.

Not having a government vehicle, and not being overly desirous of one, I really am not sure how your fleet fuels itself. Do you have an arrangement with one supplier, or do you allow the people to gas up wherever they please, and, if so, how do they pay for it?

Mr. Pallister: Each driver is given a fleet credit card, and they utilize the credit card to make their purchases. Each year the Fleet Vehicles SOA approaches the suppliers in an effort to negotiate discounts and has been successful in doing that. The discounts can range from 4 to 5 percent discount on the pump price for gas.

Mr. Maloway: So let me see, Mr. Chairman, if I understand this. The SOA goes to the independent gas stations and arranges a discount program. So I assume then that the person who drives the government car can gas up wherever they please. They have a government credit card, is that how it works? So at some of the chains or some of the gas stations there is a discount they get which the government sees an immediate reduction on. Now, if the employee does not go to one of the stations that you have approached, then, I guess, there is no discount.

* (2030)

Mr. Pallister: Just to clarify for the member, the SOA does not negotiate with individual retail outlets but does enter into arrangements with the companies like Mohawk, Co-op, Esso, Turbo, Shell. It is highly unlikely, probably it could be said that it is rare, that a government vehicle is filled up at an outlet which does not offer a discount of some significant size to the government of Manitoba.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister tell us what efforts the government is making to retrofit its buildings with new furnaces and items of this nature?

Mr. Pallister: What I can do is I can make some comments for the member's benefit on energy management policy generally, and in the process of doing that, I hope that I will address his larger concerns about cost-effectiveness in terms of energy management in our property management area.

I will start off by talking about, sort of, the noncapital or low capital cost techniques that we are utilizing to reduce energy consumption in government-owned buildings and also in leased buildings. They are, for example, limiting building ambient temperatures to 21 degrees Celsius during the winter and between 25 and 29 degrees Celsius during the summer. Of course, as we would note recently, with the exception of the Legislative Building for the most part, it is one technique that we utilize to reduce costs, reducing ambient lighting levels, utilizing higher efficient lighting sources, reduction of the building domestic hot water temperatures to 38 degrees Celsius, modification of janitorial schedules to allow day cleaning which reduces the lighting and ventilation system operating hours that were an expensive requirement prior to that technique being introduced, shutting down building ventilation systems during unoccupied periods, evenings, weekends, holidays, for example, educating client occupants to co-operate with the energy management program by turning off lights when leaving unoccupied spaces, dressing in more casual but seasonably sensible clothing, establishing a preventative maintenance program to maximize equipment operating efficiency and life-expectancy period, cycling and parking lot electrical receptacles, reducing the steam operating pressures in selected powerhouses during low demand periods are examples of the way in which we are proceeding to manage the energy resources that we have more effectively with a view to cost savings, at the same time recognizing that the quality of the workplace and the environment that people work in is essential to productive behaviour by staff, as well.

These are examples of noncapital areas. We are also working with Manitoba Hydro on the Power Smart initiative, three different projects. Where feasible, converting from electric to gas is another example.

An example of a specific project for the member for Elmwood was the recent renovation of the Ward Lab, where we spent about $50,000 and upgraded the facility in terms of how we monitor and how we best deliver energy effectively within that building. There would be one specific project as an example to the member.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, under the area of Office Equipment Services, I was going to ask the minister whether he had an inventory of government computer equipment.

I have understood from a source, anyway, that the government does not have a list of computer equipment, that, in fact, each department has lists, but they are incomplete, and nobody really knows what is going on in there with regard to all this equipment. Now, I am sure the minister will have a clarification of that.

Mr. Pallister: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, the purchasing of computer equipment is a decentralized responsibility, so our department is not engaged in central purchasing of computer equipment on behalf of all other government departments; rather individual departments have relative autonomy in dealing with the procurement of computer equipment based on their own unique circumstances.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I understand the Finance department has undertaken a program to upgrade the computer equipment, so there is some sort of consistency within the government. It seems to me that the old system of each department buying its own equipment, and all of this equipment being incompatible with one another was basically from a bygone era with this new system. The minister has just told me a minute ago that, in fact, the departments are still buying their own individual computer equipment.

Mr. Pallister: The member alludes to a problem that is a concern I think to all provincial governments and the federal government, and I am sure not just in this country or in our provinces, but elsewhere as well, and that is the whole issue of microcomputer maintenance and service and purchasing, as well.

We provide the microcomputer maintenance and service for various internal and private sector agencies and co-ordinate them depending on their location in the province. In certain areas, we contract with private sector suppliers to do the maintenance work, and other work is done by our own Supplies and Services department in the Office Equipment area for approximately 5,000 microcomputers and 3,000 printers, so the member is quite correct in alluding to the complexity of the problem.

There is an initiative called ITRO, Information Technology Review Office, that is looking into the development of more open systems, and the member is far more computer literate than I in these areas, so he may be aware of this initiative already, but with an idea to developing more open systems where there is more compatibility and so on in those systems.

I can tell him, though, that in terms of the Supply and Services aspects of this operation, two fiscal years ago Supply and Services took over the responsibility for providing a cost-recoverable service to maintain the computer equipment that we have. Just to give an idea to the member of the relative activity that has gone on in that area, during the 1992-93 fiscal year Office Equipment Services recorded over 1,800 service calls of which about 1,200 were performed by our staff, over 600 by private sector vendors. In 1993-94, there were almost 2,100 calls recorded, and for this past fiscal year, 3,400 calls. So the level of service required in our microcomputer area is definitely on the increase. That is an increase of about 45 percent over the previous fiscal year.

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As far as the breakdown for Office Equipment Services versus external vendors, roughly again, 2,600 calls were handled by Office Equipment Services and about 800 by external vendors. Our Office Equipment Services technicians are also available to provide help to desk-type service, total hours between April of 1994 and March of this year, about 580 hours to client departments at no charge. This has the effect of lowering the total cost to the client through direct avoidance of service calls and sourcing compatible quality parts at the lowest price for the machinery they have.

As far as microcomputer parts, total costs associated with normal repairs and with the ITRO-approved rebuilds, over 300 ITRO-approved rebuilds and upgrades, approximately $500,000 by centrally acquiring those parts through our Office Equipment Services department, and we estimate savings of about $80,000 to the taxpayer. There is some information for the member.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to also ask the minister about the reference he makes to rental agreements and the fact that there are evidently something like 13,000 office machines. I assume those are fax machines and photocopying machines and so on.

What is the policy of the government, or the evolving policy of the government, regarding these machines? Are they looking at some sort of standardization of the type of machines that they are buying or standardization of the maintenance contracts?

Mr. Pallister: I will attempt to describe the process in general terms. In essence, the standing order is prepared, specifications are outlined in conjunction with discussions with departments, various client departments. Various suppliers are then approached. The prices are procured. The particular machine or service required is categorized, based on generally things like size or usage, and then the lowest price hopefully made available to the departments.

So there is, in essence, an element of standardization that occurs as a consequence of the response to the specifications. Through that process, I guess the end result that we all hope for is that we have a cost-efficient service. An example of one of the things that we have done with regard to photocopiers, to try to--and effectively have reduced costs, is that we have set up approximately 100 key copiers which provide the departments with better functionality, better quality service and better supplies. These key copiers are placed in identified areas of greater use and then are available to various client users.

For example, in the provincial government building in my home town, that is one of the key copier areas. This reduces the number of individual installations for photocopiers, while at the same time allowing each of these departments access to a better quality, faster service than would be the case with separate entities, separate copiers in each separate government office or work area.

As far as in 1994-95, there were 27 photocopier upgrades to better featured equipment at less cost to government, and eight new key-controlled copiers were added to this program.

On an ongoing basis, this part of our department continues to evaluate the requirements of our clients and locates copier centres as required, specifically with regard to reducing the cost and providing, whenever possible, two-sided copying to the client department.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, is any thought being given to try to further reduce the paper in the government by having documents scanned, by means of optical scanners, into computers, into hard drives and thereby reducing the amount of paper that the government is using in a year?

There is a tremendous amount of paper produced around here, as all of us know. A lot of it never gets used and it is certainly technologically possible. Some industries are at the point now where they are almost in a paperless office situation through the use of scanning machines and computer technology.

Mr. Pallister: The member makes a valid point, a valid assertion I think that the overall objective is to reduce the outflow of paper unnecessarily. The technological advances that he refers to, the scanning and so on which are certainly impressive and exciting are something that would probably be best undertaken on a decentralized basis within given client departments that would avail themselves most appropriately of that service.

I can tell him that we have pushed forward in attempting to increase the percentage of our copiers that are capable of two-sided copying as a single illustration of an attempt to reduce paper. I can tell him that over half our copiers now are two sided.

* (2050)

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister a question about the proposed special operating agency for the postal services. Now, I realize that it is still in the planning stages, but how does the minister envision this special operating agency taking form and how will it change? How will the operation change from the way it operates today versus the way it will be operating in the future?

Mr. Pallister: Well, the objectives, of course, with the special operating agencies, whether in existence or planned are the same, to provide quality services at less cost, to provide a greater efficiency and to become perhaps more responsive than was the case in the past to the needs of those clients whom we serve. Recognizing that we have customers in our department is something that we are doing and no different from a retail business, private sector operation.

We know that we have to become the agency of choice when we provide services to our clients. We have to have the attitude that we will be as efficient, as effective, as capable as possible in the delivery of those services that we are responsible for providing. So, in the interests of doing those things, the SOAs that we have thus far implemented which are at various stages of development have attempted to make, I guess a cultural change if you will within them which recognizes those facts and have done that to varying degrees of success given the fact that they are at varying stages of making that transition.

In the area of postal services, there have been many changes on an ongoing basis over the last few years and this is sort of another step in the journey, I would suppose. Becoming a special operating agency is just another step along the road to continuous improvement that this department and certainly the postal services aspect of this department are attempting to continue to travel.

Just as an example of improved efficiencies in postal services, at one time we used a postal truck, government postal truck and four full-time employees to take mail from the Legislature, I guess, into various other government offices around the city and that cost approximately a quarter of a million dollars. What we do today is we utilize a private courier firm and they provide that service to us at now less than $70,000. So there would be a single example with, by all accounts, improved capability. At a cost that is less than a third of the previous cost, this service is being done.

No one realistically expects that our postal services, just because they will perhaps become an SOA in the not too distant future, to provide the same level of service for less than a third of the cost, but on the other hand, we know that if we continue to look for cost efficiencies we will find them, and if we do not, we will not, so we will look for them.

Mr. Maloway: What is the name of the courier service the minister just referred to?

Mr. Pallister: Dynamex.

Mr. Maloway: Could the minister tell us then, at what point--because I believe he said that this service given to Dynamex was taken away from the postal service. This is a service that the postal service used to handle, no?

Mr. Pallister: That particular improvement was made over three years ago. The recent contract, and that was the figure I alluded to, was just renegotiated and was a figure of less than $70,000. So they had a three-year contract initially which just came up for renewal, and they came in at a lower price this time.

Mr. Maloway: So is the minister saying he saved $70,000 or the contract was for $70,000?

Mr. Pallister: The contract was for less than $70,000. The actual cost, not in constant dollars but in actual dollars four years ago, was over a quarter of a million dollars for that same service.

Mr. Maloway: Just a couple more questions to the minister. I had a question regarding--he made reference to the seven sites--this is under security and parking--that are contracted to private security services. I was wondering if he could provide us with a list of these seven sites, and the list of the companies that are providing these private security services, and, certainly, if possible, to flesh out the information as to how long the private services have been providing this service.

Mr. Pallister: I have some of the information the member requested, not all though, but as far as the security contracts are concerned, there were two-year contracts with a third year negotiable option which was that third year option was recommended to minimize cost increases as had been seen in past for contracts.

For hanger T5, Pinkerton's of Canada, that particular contract has expired, and we have now installed a new security system that is centrally monitored. In the Woodsworth system, Inner-tec Security, Assiniboine Community College, we do that one internally, there is in-house security, as well, the Legislative Building, the Archives, Law Courts, Portage and Brandon Provincial Buildings, the Thompson Provincial Building, Manitoba Developmental Centre in Portage, the Brandon Mental Health Centre in Brandon.

For the member's information, there are mobile patrol and alarm response services provided in Winnipeg to numerous government-owned facilities. In addition, 59 alarmed government sites are checked by the mobile patrol when an alarm is activated. In terms of security, that gives the member a broader perspective, perhaps.

In Brandon, there is mobile patrol and alarm response provided at the Brandon mental hospital, Brandon courthouse, Rideau Park, Ag Services provincial building, Land Titles, the rural cabinet office and the Department of Highways yard and office.

Numerous sites in Portage la Prairie are provided mobile patrol and alarm response services, as well.

Mr. Maloway: I did not ask about the mobile patrol, but I thank the minister for answering it anyway. I was asking specifically about the seven sites that are contracted out to private security services, and he has given me, I think, one or two of them, but I wanted the sites, who they are contracted to, and were they tendered contracts?

Mr. Pallister: I am sorry, could the member repeat the last part of his question?

Mr. Maloway: I was looking for the seven sites that are contracted to private security services, and I wanted the name of the private company. I wanted to know whether each of those seven contracts was tendered.

Mr. Pallister: They were tendered. We are just attempting to get the names for the member, but I can tell him they were tendered.

We do not have that information for the member here, but we can certainly get the information for the member and make it available to him in the near future.

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Mr. Maloway: I thank the minister for that commitment.

I would like to ask him a final question and that is, he makes reference to reviewing existing leases regarding parking and security, and I was interested in knowing how many leases the government was involved in as far as Parking and Security was concerned and what was the motivation behind renewing the leases. I make the assumption that it is the same as his private sector leases where, when the real estate market dropped then, of course, the government was well within its right to look for a better renegotiating position as far as getting a better price from the private sector. People were concerned and I assume that his motivation is the same here.

Mr. Pallister: The member is partly correct in his assumption that we do review the leases with a view to procuring renewal at the lowest possible price for the taxpayers of the province. We also, of course, review the leases to ascertain the level of service required. For example, in the case of parking lot patrols where there are fewer vehicles, fewer stalls than was the case prior, we would hope to achieve cost savings on the new contract for security in that particular instance. Naturally, as with any of the tender documents that we prepare in our department, we are reviewing them meticulously to determine that they are adjusted in such a manner as to result in the lowest possible cost in response to the tender.

Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, that is obviously not the question. The minister is the one that makes the statement that he is reviewing existing leases for Parking and Security, and so my question is, how many leases exist in the first place? How many leases are there that he is reviewing?

Mr. Pallister: I am sorry, I assumed the member was still referring to security and that aspect, and that is why I was responding in the way I was. I believe what he is alluding to is simply how we make arrangements for parking for staff in various government buildings. That is something that is done as part of the actual lease arrangements that we enter into.

When the member asks or makes comment on us reviewing the parking requirements, we are doing that in conjunction with the regular reviews of the leases that we are entering into with properties that we have. So as is the case throughout other services that we provide in our department, when a lease comes up for renewal, we examine the parking requirements and, as I said earlier, if there are fewer parking requirements, for example, then we expect to pay less for parking than would be the case if there were more.

Mr. Maloway: So how many are there? How many leases do you have?

Mr. Pallister: We have 260 leases and with virtually all of them, there is some parking element to the lease. So to separate into a subcategory of some kind, I do not think that I can do that for the member. Suffice to say that the vast majority of leases make reference to parking within their terms.

Mr. Maloway: This concludes the questions that I had for the minister, and perhaps we could go line by line and pass the department and the minister's salary.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1. Administration (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $369,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $39,200--pass.

(d) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $442,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $110,600--pass.

(e) Systems (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $351,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $60,200--pass.

(f) Lieutenant Governor's Office (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $97,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $62,500--pass.

2. Property Management (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $157,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $22,100--pass.

(b) Physical Plant (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $17,246,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $32,047,200--pass; (3) Preventative Maintenance $161,000--pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1,670,000)--pass.

(d) Property Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $370,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $247,000--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($250,100)--pass.

(e) Security and Parking (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,513,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $480,900--pass.

(f) Accommodation Cost Recovery ($37,048,200)--pass.

Resolution 8.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $70,125,000 for Government Services, Property Management, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

3. Supply and Services (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $170,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $14,500--pass.

(b) Government Air Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,324,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $5,299,400--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($8,623,900)--pass.

(c) Office Equipment Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $478,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,321,300--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1,799,500)--pass.

(d) Purchasing (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,287,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $390,000--pass.

(e) Materials Distribution Agency--pass.

(f) Telecommunications (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $950,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $4,611,100--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4,876,700)--pass.

(g) Postal Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $786,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $463,600--pass; (3) Postage $5,000,000--pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4,850,000)--pass.

(h) Land Acquisition (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits--pass; (2) Other Expenditures--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations--pass.

(j) Fleet Vehicles Agency--pass.

Resolution 8.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,946,800 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

* (2110)

4. Accommodation Development (a) Accommodation Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,148,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $718,500--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($475,000)--pass.

(b) Workshop/Renovations (1) Salaries, Wages and Employee Benefits $1,900,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $248,000--pass; (3) Workshop Projects $2,575,000--pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4,723,600)--pass.

Resolution 8.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,392,100 for Government Services, Accommodation Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

5. Land Value Appraisal Commission (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $79,200--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $66,300--pass; (c) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($57,400)--pass.

Resolution 8.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $88,100 for Government Services, Land Value Appraisal Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

6. Disaster Assistance (a) Emergency Measures Organization (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $589,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $253,000--pass.

(b) Disaster Assistance Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $118,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $37,700--pass.

Resolution 8.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $998,400 for Government Services, Disaster Assistance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

7. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Capital Projects $13,012,300--pass; (b) Departmental Capital $249,900--pass.

Resolution 8.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,262,200 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Government Services, item 1.(a) Minister's Salary $22,800. At this point we request the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item.

Item 1. Administration (a) Minister's Salary $22,800--pass.

Resolution 8.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,354,900 for Government Services, Administration, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

This completes the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Environment.

Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [agreed] Shall we leave the clock running? [agreed]