1st-36th, Volume 24 - Committee of Supply

JUSTICE

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply come to order, please. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Will the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.

We are on Resolution 4.4 Corrections (d) Community Corrections.

Point of Order

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I have--well, put it this way, for the first time in the history of St. John's High School, the girls' 4A basketball won the provincial championship in March, and the team is coming in to see me at twelve noon today in Room 200 for no more than five minutes. They are on their way to the Lieutenant-Governor's, and I just wonder if the committee can take a break at that time, rather than trying to deal with who is speaking and so on. I wonder if that is convenient to the committee, just to take a five-minute break.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Chair, yes, that is certainly important, and we have no problem with that at all.

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Mr. Chairperson: Item 4. Corrections (d) Community Corrections (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7,350,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,281,000--pass; (3) Program Development $1,328,000--pass.

Resolution 4.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $54,532,400 for Justice, Corrections, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 5. Courts (a) Court Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,695,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,114,600--pass.

5.(b) Winnipeg Courts (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7,320,800.

Mr. Mackintosh: Has the minister considered what discipline procedures are available to deal with complaints made about the conduct of masters?--and I will leave it at that.

Mrs. Vodrey: I would just like to take a moment to introduce Mary Humphrey, Executive Director of Judicial Services, and Dave Brickwood, Director of Administration in Courts Division. I would like to introduce both of those staff members to the committee.

On the question of how to deal with issues relating to masters, there is a process at the moment that is recommended, and that is that where there are complaints, that the complaints be made in writing and that they be forwarded to the Chief Justice of the Court of Queens Bench.

Mr. Mackintosh: Then I take it that no matter what the severity of the issue might be or the seriousness of the complaint, the matter is left to the discretion of the Chief Justice?

Mrs. Vodrey: The member asks, is this the only way? Unless the complaint is a criminal complaint--in which case, if the complaint is criminal then the police would investigate. The difficulty, I understand, is that masters are also civil servants. So the process for conduct--and I believe that is what the member is speaking about, because if it was a decision then obviously there is another route. Where it is conducted, it is made in writing to the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, and the Chief Justice then would examine the complaint and determine an action. One of the possibilities is because masters are also civil servants, then there could be a referral to the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. Mackintosh: In light of the increasing demand on masters to deal with much more complex issues than, for example, before the changes to the Queen's Bench rules of about ten years ago--and I think of things like summary judgment and certainly issues regarding maintenance come to mind. I think it is appropriate that the government now look at the review procedures, the discipline procedures affecting masters, and I will pursue this further with the minister through correspondence.

Mr. Chairperson: 5.(b) Winnipeg Courts (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7,320,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,471,600--pass.

5.(c) Regional Courts (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,981,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $2,113,500--pass.

5.(d) Judicial Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7,392,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $609,400--pass.

Resolution 4.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $26,699,300 for Justice, Courts, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 6. Protection of Individual and Property Rights (a) Manitoba Human Rights Commission (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,095,900.

Mr. Mackintosh: I only have one question for the minister on this item, and I am wondering when the response to the correspondence regarding Jerry Olfman's complaint to the commission can be expected?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, could I ask the member just to repeat the question, please?

Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I would like an indication from the minister as to when I can expect return correspondence about my inquiries about Jerry Olfman's complaint, the Human Rights complaint.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Chair, if I may just indulge the minister and members of this House for a moment, we discovered that in yesterday's resolution in committee to change the order of Estimates that the motion that was moved and agreed to by the House with respect to allowing the Department of Housing to proceed, which was intended to be for just one day, did not include that wording, we are advised by the Clerks.

Consequently, we cannot go back to the original order form. So if I may ask the indulgence of the committee, if we could adjourn for a moment or two, if the Deputy Speaker perhaps could take the Chair and the House can make that change.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to recess and call the Speaker back into the Chair to make the change asked for by the deputy government House leader? It is agreed? [agreed]

The committee is recessed. Call in the Speaker.

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IN SESSION

House Business

Hon. Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would ask if you could canvass the House for leave for the Estimates in the Committee of Supply in Room 255 to return to the original order that would have the Department of Energy and Mines on the list today instead of the Department of Housing, which was substituted yesterday and should only have been for one day, so that we now return to the original list. I would ask for leave, please.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): If I understand the minister correctly, we are going to the Department of Northern Affairs?

An Honourable Member: Energy and Mines.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Energy and Mines.

Mr. Praznik: And we are reverting to the original agreed-upon revised list. Yesterday, leave was requested for a substitution for the Department of Housing. We were under the impression, as House leaders, that was for only one day, but that regrettably was omitted in the record of the House, so consequently Housing is the committee in Supply now. We would like to revert to the original revised list which would be the Department of Energy and Mines.

(Madam Speaker in the Chair)

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have the deputy government House leader change the order of sequence of Committee of Supply to ensure that Energy and Mines is dealt with today?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, that was agreed to--the revised list that has been agreed to, that we return to that revised list.

Madam Speaker: And return to the revised list. Agreed? [agreed]

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. That is not required because the committee had just recessed.

Mr. Praznik: Fine.

JUSTICE

(continued)

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Call in the staff.

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I can tell the member that I expect he will have the answers to his questions certainly within the next two weeks.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 6. Protection of Individual and Property Rights (a) Manitoba Human Rights Commission (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,095,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $359,100--pass.

6.(b) Legal Aid Manitoba (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,379,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $7,724,300--pass.

6.(c) Public Trustee (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,741,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $773,900--pass.

6.(d) Land Titles Offices (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5,479,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,708,800--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations $155,000.

6.(e) Personal Property Registry (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $657,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $483,000--pass.

Resolution 4.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $26,247,700 for Justice, Protection of Individual and Property Rights, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

We will now revert to the Minister's Salary at this time. We ask the minister's staff to leave the Chamber, please.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Chair, I move,

WHEREAS this minister has proven her inability to maintain the confidence of Manitobans and the administration of justice by:

1. Failing to make any meaningful progress toward the comprehensive implementation of the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report;

2. Failing to implement a comprehensive crime prevention strategy for Manitoba and implement The Crime Prevention Foundation Act;

3. Failing to stand up to the government which, by its social and economic policies, including cuts to family and youth supports, is helping to breed the worst crime rate in Canada;

4. Failing to heed virtually all the recommendations of the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence and failing to implement the minister's nine-point plan on youth crime;

5. A failure to radically reduce court backlogs;

6. Failing to comprehensively deal with violence against women and ensure an effective zero-tolerance policy;

7. Failing to ensure the effective administration of maintenance enforcement and refusing to comprehensively overhaul maintenance enforcement and entitlement laws;

8. Failing to provide leadership to break down interprovincial barriers to maintenance enforcement;

9. Failing to provide stable, predictable and timely funding for victims assistance programs and ensure victims' rights;

10. Failing to adequately meet policing needs in Manitoba and failing to respond to concerns raised by the RCMP in a forthright manner;

11. Failing to spur adequate community-based policing through effective leadership;

12. Failing to ensure an independent inquiry into the infant deaths at the Health Sciences Centre and the role of the government;

13. Failing to properly account to Manitobans by failing to provide annual reports and answers to questions on a timely basis;

14. Engaging in posturing and public relations efforts to give Manitobans the impression of government action as, for example, misleading Manitobans as to the existence of boot camps.

THAT the Minister's Salary at line 1.(a) under the Department of Justice Estimates, be reduced to $1.

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Motion presented.

Mr. Chairperson: I find that the motion is in order and debate may proceed.

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Chairman, I am rather taken aback at the vehemence with which the opposition critic puts forward this motion. He spent a number of days, literally, in Estimates with this minister and he has found, I think, that while he may not be in a position to approve of the efforts that this minister and this government have put forward, he certainly should be in a position to acknowledge that there have been significant strides taken in the very direction that he on occasion in this House has stood up and literally made fun of.

One of the things that has been so important in this Chamber over the last couple of years has been the issue of deterrence, particularly in youth crime, particularly in vandalism and those sorts of efforts, and what did we get from the opposition when we saw a response from this minister? We saw derision, we saw them calling them bootie camps. Bootie camps--can you imagine them talking in that manner about a camp that is designed--they were trying to conjure up the American boot camp image where you are marching around in jackboots and you are chained together and all that sort of foolishness when in fact the boot camp initiative in this province is now being considered one of the leading approaches to being able to influence the behavioural antics, if you will, of some of those younger people in society who have somehow gone astray in terms of respecting other people's property, in terms of respecting the values of our society.

Frankly I think that it is with, I would imagine, some tongue in cheek that the opposition would raise these types of issues, particularly during the Minister's Salary discussion because what you are doing is attempting to deride and attack the minister that is considered a leader in this country in a number of areas, not only in the areas of deterrent to some of the youth vandalism and crime that we have seen lately but also in the area of maintenance.

I mean for, goodness' sake, you have seen some significant advances in the area of maintenance enforcement. Having seen a few constituents who are in fact actually on the other end of the pipe looking down at receiving some of the enforcement that this minister and this government has now put in place, l can tell you that Manitoba is again respected across this country by other jurisdictions in the actions that we are taking.

Let me expound for just a moment on the area of youth crime, Mr. Chairman. Not only the boot camp initiative but also some of the other positive initiatives that go beyond deterrent but go toward encouraging young people to re-evaluate what their principles and what their place in life might be and how they intend to integrate within their community, we have seen a number of positive actions from enhancement of opportunities for youth to get themselves out of situations where they find themselves embroiled in gang situations, where they need counselling and support. Again, we have seen leadership in this area that is being considered and being looked at by other jurisdictions in a very thoughtful way.

I would indicate that my constituents and the people across this province that I have occasion to interact with are becoming sick and tired of the feeling that there is nothing that can be done short of holding hands and patting people on the head and saying, now, now, that was not a nice thing to do and maybe you should not do it again. I mean, that seems to be the approach that an awful lot of people in society--in many cases, those are put forward as proposals and supported by the members opposite, that the only way of interacting with youth and others who are committing crimes in our communities is to make sure that there are alternatives for them and that they will make the right decision. That is a laudable objective, but that is not the only way to deal with people who are distancing themselves from the standards of our society.

There have to be meaningful deterrents to the actions that some people are taking. It is a two-pronged approach. It is not a singular approach. The members opposite would be only too glad if they were on this side of the House to ignore some of the deterrent issues, if you can judge by the reactions that they have taken every time this government has talked about deterrents. They have stood up and derided those deterrents.

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They have deliberately set themselves on the other side of the issue. They have forgotten that there are two ways of approaching these problems within our society. Not only have they forgotten it, they are flaunting the idea that we are somehow enforcing jackboot mentality in terms of dealing with people. That is not the case either. I do not care how the members want to--the members on the other side, if they want to continue in that manner, then they will have to answer to the concerns out in the public that I see through Autopac and the concerns the people have about vandalism and the steps that we have taken there. One of the most consistently asked questions is, will there be reimbursement? Will there be payback for this cost?

I think we have taken significant steps in that area, Mr. Chairman, and I would suggest that this motion be rejected.

Mrs. Vodrey: Absolutely. The member continues his foolishness, his total arguments, which are consistently put forward in the areas of actually dealing seriously with criminal activity and criminal behaviour in this province.

Mr. Chair, every time this government has brought forward any initiatives which would be of assistance in the public safety of Manitobans, that party has totally rejected them. They have always spoken again them. The people of Manitoba are quite frankly tired of it. The people of Manitoba are expecting and looking for the kind of action that this government has been prepared to give, in fact, very brave action.

I look at this government's formation of the very first committee across Canada to deal with notification of the community for high-risk sexual offenders. This government has taken brave steps in the area of youth crime, in the area of protection of women and children with setting up the very first Family Violence Court and continuing with very strong action, encouraging the federal government to make changes in the Criminal Code for the protection of women and children and also being very diligent ourselves in all areas of our jurisdiction to move forward.

In the continuum of public safety initiatives, we have begun with assistance in the policing end. We have added $2 million to the City of Winnipeg for 40 new police officers. We have put forward money to the RCMP to increase their complement, an added telecommunication system. We have worked diligently under the First Nations policing policy to assist aboriginal communities in determining the type of police service they would like to have.

We continue to move diligently in the area of prosecutions and also in the area of courts, and we have worked co-operatively. I think that is a very important point to make in that we have moved very co-operatively working with all divisions of the Department of Justice and also with the judiciary to make sure that cases move swiftly and smoothly through the courts.

Again, in the area of corrections, Manitobans demanded consequences, and consequences are exactly what they are seeing from this government in the area of anyone sentenced to our provincial institutions. Both youth and adults are now experiencing a much more rigorous and meaningful confinement.

Mr. Chair, we are very pleased that we were able to move so quickly in these areas. We did not just think about it and dream about it; in fact, this government made brave decisions and we acted.

We have also acted bravely in the area of legislation. Where legislation has been required, we have amended The Highway Traffic Act to deal with auto theft and auto vandalism, and most recently, we are dealing with The Maintenance Enforcement Act. We are looking forward to the support of the other side in passing the maintenance enforcement bill through third reading and into law, because that is what the women and children of Manitoba, in particular, are expecting. This is the toughest bill available across Canada.

The other side has not looked for a very workable law, and where I have kept the door open on behalf of our government to examine other kinds of solutions, they have simply rejected it. They wanted to think about it. Quite frankly, Mr. Chair, they just want to think about things, and they are not prepared to take part in any action whatsoever. So when the people of Manitoba are looking for who has failed, they only have to look across the way.

With that, Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to stand on the record of this government for our action in the area of justice with all citizens of Manitoba.

Mr. Mackintosh: The Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings) and the Attorney General have made arguments that there have been positive initiatives by the department and, you know, from time to time, we actually have seen some initiatives. Of course, we on this side believe that many of those initiatives follow the actions and the pressure that we have been putting on the minister to make changes, particularly in the area of youth corrections and maintenance enforcement, but we are concerned that those initiatives are like raindrops on a fire, Mr. Chair. The government fails to deal in almost every area comprehensively, and I want to point one item out--[interjection]

Mr. Chair, would you please call order.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I am having great difficulty hearing the honourable member for St. Johns' debate, and I know the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews) is having trouble, so if the honourable members would just keep it down so that we will keep the decorum.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Chair, today I think is an appropriate day to lament the lack of meaningful progress towards a comprehensive implementation of the recommendations in the AJI report. Today is the fifth anniversary of the death of the Meech Lake Accord, and for many people in this House, both staff and members, that experience in Manitoba was one that I think has changed the course of history, not just in Manitoba but in Canada.

I have heard from many people, particularly aboriginal people, that as a result of the Meech Lake Accord and since that time, they felt that, indeed, change can be made for the better, and often that change can be made within the political structures. There is a new confidence, and as was said by Mr. Harper, it was not just about the death of the Meech Lake Accord, it was about the rebirth of aboriginal people in Canada.

I, myself, was very proud of my role in the Meech Lake Accord. It was an experience that changes one's life. I think that many of the negative stereotypes that have existed in this province for many, many years were broken by the leadership from the aboriginal community that was obvious during the course of those two weeks, leadership that is asking that a partnership be fully developed with the dominant society and with the Province of Manitoba, in particular, a partnership to ensure that the needs and aspirations of aboriginal peoples are fulfilled, finally.

In particular, it was just one year after the death of the Meech Lake Accord that the report of the two Manitoba judges on aboriginal justice was released, a tremendous report, one that offers great insight into the challenges facing all Manitobans to deal with aboriginal justice and the unfairness that is inherent in our system.

Despite, although cryptic, some positive statements by the government on the release of that report, that progress would be made, now four years later there has been virtually no progress. I have said this many times, and I think in this Chamber, but it is one of the darkest clouds over this government, this failure. Perhaps some day, Mr. Chair, we will bring that report into the Chamber and go through it, recommendation by recommendation. It is nothing less than--not simply a political shame, it is much greater than that, that this government has not heeded the recommendations and entered into partnerships to ensure their implementation.

Mr. Chair, if I can continue my remarks after the break.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. There were some discussions earlier about taking a break at twelve noon. What is the will of the committee? Agreed? It is agreed that we take--

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Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Chair, there had been discussion earlier about the engagement I have for five minutes at noon. I believe there is an understanding that we would let the clock go on the condition that the clock remain running for five minutes until my return.

Mr. Chairperson: Is that agreed? [agreed]

* * *

Mr. Chairperson: The meeting will come to order.

Mr. Mackintosh: I thank the committee for allowing me to do that. I think it was important for those young women.

So it is with emphasis on the lack of initiative on the AJI report that I left the debate. I think the motion speaks for itself as to what our concerns have been, and we have defined what we meant, I believe, as time has gone by over the past number of months and in public debate and in questions in this House. We know full well what Manitobans feel about this government's Justice record. Manitobans are more fearful now than they have ever been, as to their safety. I am confident of that. I hear that door after door after door. They are concerned about their safety, not only on the street but in their homes.

The NDP caucus task force on violence against women is continuing with its efforts to define how an effective, comprehensive antiviolence strategy can be implemented in this province, because too many out there are saying that there really is no zero-tolerance policy when you really look at what services are available, what laws are available for women.

As well, the maintenance issues are going to be dealt with further in this session, and I will not speak on that further now.

This motion was decided on by the caucus after much thought, and it was with some regret. This is a rare motion. It is one that should be moved only in cases of extreme and obvious mishandling of departmental and public policy affairs. It was felt that the minister is not moving in the right direction, is engaging in public relations efforts without substantive change to Justice policy in the province. So we do not take this lightly, Mr. Chair, one bit. We hope that the minister will look at this resolution and the contents of it to see what the objectives of the Justice department are, in our view, what they should be. I trust that the minister will start to move, in a meaningful way, toward meeting those objectives.

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Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? [interjection] No?

Voice Vote

Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, please say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have it.

Formal Vote

Mr. Mackintosh: A count-out vote, please, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chairperson: A count-out vote being requested, call in the members.

All sections in Chamber for formal vote.

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Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The motion before the committee is,

WHEREAS this minister has proven her inability to maintain the confidence of Manitobans in the administration of justice by--

An Honourable Member: Dispense.

Mr. Chairperson: Dispense.

1. Failing to make any meaningful progress toward the comprehensive implementation of the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report;

2. Failing to implement a comprehensive crime prevention strategy for Manitoba and implement The Crime Prevention Foundation Act;

3. Failing to stand up to the government which, by its social and economic policies, including cuts to family and youth supports, is helping to breed the worst crime rate in Canada;

4. Failing to heed virtually all the recommendations of the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence and failing to implement the minister's nine-point plan on youth crime;

5. A failure to radically reduce court backlogs;

6. Failing to comprehensively deal with violence against women and ensure an effective zero-tolerance policy;

7. Failing to ensure the effective administration of maintenance enforcement and refusing to comprehensively overhaul maintenance enforcement and entitlement laws;

8. Failing to provide leadership to break down interprovincial barriers to maintenance enforcement;

9. Failing to provide stable, predictable and timely funding for victims assistance programs and ensure victims' rights;

10. Failing to adequately meet policing needs in Manitoba and failing to respond to concerns raised by the RCMP in a forthright manner;

11. Failing to spur adequate community-based policing through effective leadership;

12. Failing to ensure an independent inquiry into the infant deaths at the Health Sciences Centre and the role of the government;

13. Failing to properly account to Manitobans by failing to provide annual reports and answers to questions on a timely basis;

14. Engaging in posturing and public relations efforts to give Manitobans the impression of government action as, for example, misleading Manitobans as to the existence of boot camps.

THAT the Minister's Salary at line 1.(a) under the Department of Justice Estimates, be reduced to $1.

A COUNT-OUT VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 24, Nays 27.

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly defeated.

The three sections will resume their consideration of the Estimates.

JUSTICE

(continued)

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): The question for this section of the committee is, shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.

Resolution 4.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,169,500 for Justice, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year on the 31st day of March, 1996.

This concludes the Department of Justice. We will next be considering the Department of Urban Affairs.

* * *

Hon. Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Chair, if this committee will just grant some indulgence to the members of both parties who are in other sections of the committee, I understand that within a moment or two, we will be returning to he House for a further vote. So we may just want to allow the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) a little bit of leeway in bringing his staff in right away.

Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [agreed]

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): It was my understanding that the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives line would follow the Department of Justice. I may be incorrect in that. Perhaps the minister could respond, and we could deal with that item in the next couple of minutes.

Mr. Chairperson: The sequence of Estimates has the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives after Urban Affairs, Environment, Labour, Legislative Assembly, Civil Service Commission and Sustainable Development and then Children and Youth Secretariat, so it does not follow the sequence at this time.

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Report

Mr. Ben Sveinson (Deputy Chairperson of Committees): In the section of Supply, meeting in Room 254, the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) moved that under 27.9, infrastructure, that the line be reduced by $11 million, the amount equivalent to the funding of a new Winnipeg arena. This motion was defeated on a voice vote. A formal vote was then requested by the member for Thompson and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale).

Formal Vote

Mr. Chairperson: A formal vote has been requested, call in the members.

All sections in Chamber for formal vote.

Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that under resolution item 27.9, infrastructure, that the line be reduced by $11 million, the amount equivalent to the funding of the new Winnipeg arena.

A COUNT-OUT VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 22, Nays 29.

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly defeated. We will now resume to the three committees.