(Concurrent Sections)

HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Mike Radcliffe): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 2.(e)(1) on page 88 of the Estimates book and on page 43 of the yellow supplement book.

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Mr. Chair, I will appreciate a little time on a few other issues, road issues in Interlake constituency. From 1990 it was brought to my attention the development of Steep Rock beach area and the community, and I in turn brought it to the attention of the minister at that time of Highways and Transportation the request from the community, the request from the LGD of Grahamdale to put in turning lanes at the corner of Highway 6 and 239 going to Steep Rock.

I want to add the fact that in specifically the last three to four years, the Steep Rock beach development has grown immensely, its weekends and during the week during the summer are basically full, weather permitting. They have really developed it into a tourism industry there.

As a matter of fact, I will also on record make mention that I go there with my family at least two or three times a year. It is a wonderful spot, and at the same time put on record to invite the minister out any time. But it has been on the books, I cannot recall if I have written to this minister, I think I have brought it to his attention or his department's attention. The last note that I remember is that they would be seriously taking it into consideration, and I would like to ask the minister whether that is in the books coming up and what can we tell the people in Steep Rock?

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Chairman, the turning lanes that the honourable member is requesting is about a $200,000 item to do it. It is not in the program yet, but at that kind of cost it is something that is under consideration but not easy to do. You cannot do it with petty cash. It is a very expensive item. I presume the member is talking about turning lanes on Highway 6 coming from the south.

Mr. Clif Evans: Both ways.

Mr. Findlay: Both ways, from the north and south. All I can say is, it is not on the program yet. We are looking at the traffic numbers. The best time to do a project like that, which is not a large project really, in terms of a contractor, is when the contractor might be in the area for other work. Then you can get it done at a reasonable cost, so his request is recorded, and I am glad that you clarified that you want it from both directions rather than just from the south.

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Mr. Clif Evans: Yes, but I would think that most of the traffic going to Steep Rock is coming from the south. Unfortunately or fortunately, there is an enormous amount, and the minister is well aware of big heavy truck traffic going straight through, and it is just after a curve. That intersection comes just after a curve, so it is a turning lane, passing lane, whatever which way you want to call it, so they are aware, and the fear is there. I do not want to be fearmongering, but the fear is there with the increased amount of traffic and promotion that Steep Rock is doing. Hopefully there will not be any problem, but they would certainly like to seek to enhance that corner so that people know they can come onto No. 6 and go off No. 6 going to Steep Rock and be safe.

One comment on that, if I may then, in a couple of weeks when I am out there I will inform the committee and the LGD to proceed with requests from the minister's office on that.

Mr. Chair, 329 again, I hate being repetitious, but I have been repetitious now. This is the fifth Estimates on 329 west rebuilding, upgrading--

An Honourable Member: West of?

Mr. Clif Evans: West of 326. It is a request again from the R.M. of Bifrost. There are many, many bad patches on it. Again, it is one of those east-west connections where folks from Fisher Branch, from Hodgson use that road to come to Riverton, the grain, truck traffic, construction, et cetera.

As a matter of fact, through no one's fault at all, prior to election, on behalf of a councillor whose ward most of that section is in--it runs through Bifrost municipality and through the LGD of Fisher municipality up to Highway 17--I had requested an update, and of course because of the election call--so I would like to know if 329 is on the books. What are we looking at? How soon, or do we need resolutions?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, that section from Highway 17 to 233, a stretch of 21.6 kilometres is now undergoing acquisition of right-of-way for future consideration for upgrade; $130,000 has been set aside for that. That is currently in the program, the acquisition of right-of-way, so the processes have started.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, I am sure the minister will be receiving an updated resolution and letters from the R.M. of Bifrost, and I will certainly make sure that the LGD of Fisher also gets involved in it.

Mr. Findlay: We have a previous resolution from the LGD of Fisher, but it would be important that they both come in with similar resolutions supporting what they would like to see done.

Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, knowing the conditions of the road and weather and whatnot, I would also like to put on record to the minister that it is another situation where some maintenance, upgrading, maintenance itself on that road be set aside as perhaps one of the priorities in that area, in that region. Again if things are in the works, we should try and maintain the condition of the road to its best quality, so that if you are going to be making improvements to it, it will not cost as much or take as much effort to do.

I would like, and I have discussed this with the minister, to express my feelings on the importance that I feel and certainly the communities in the area feel about 513 from Gypsumville to Dauphin River. I know the minister's department has been doing some work on that in the last couple of weeks. I appreciate his response to my inquiry on that and inquiries from the Interlake Tribal Council and the communities of Dauphin River, St. Martin and Little Saskatchewan.

It is a project that has been on the books back in the mid-'80s. It was a project that was begun during the mid-'80s, beginning at Dauphin River Reserve going west. It was taken off the books, everything was stopped as far as continuing. I believe there was some sort of an agreement, some sort of approval to go a certain amount every couple of years, a certain length of upgrading that road.

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I would like to say to the minister, and I have said it again that I would more than be willing to go out and get the communities involved to do whatever they can. I have made that request to the communities. I have made that request to the IRTC. The 513 is, at points, dangerous. Its condition at times throughout the year is dangerous. There, of course, have been problems with that road.

It was brought to my attention just last week that a bus full of tourists leaving Dauphin River got stuck right in the middle of the road. I know that there are certain spots that are real soft spots, and that I can certainly appreciate. Not only that, the situation of the curves at certain points, clearing has to be done. Also, the fact that this past year there was a lot of heavy truck traffic, pulpwood truck traffic. Unfortunately, too, the Lake St. Martin flooding situation had to create even further heavy traffic on it.

I feel that the communities are very legitimate in their requests with the upgrading of this road. I am wondering what has to be done. The 513 is not in the books for anything more than just maintenance. What can we do to expedite getting some further work done on that? Really, I would appreciate the minister's department just going out, especially on those curves, and seeing what can done about some brushing for the corners, the curves.

Yes, the speed on that road perhaps should be cut down at certain times of the year, but because of all the brush on the road and that, a lot of times during the wintertime it gets bogged in with snow that melts. It is not considered a priority road when it comes to snow clearing, and the problems occur from that situation also.

The communities are also fearful of the fact that--and it brought to light the accident that occurred about a month or so ago--not so much the accident as the availability, because of the road condition, of getting medical or ambulance vehicles to the area and out again to go to Ashern, which is the nearest medical facility. It is used. One of the comments made to me by the chief of St. Martin was that they would like to work with the department and say, road counts, do you want to do road counts?

Basically, the department is doing them at the wrong time. I said to the chief, well, what is the right time to do them? He indicated that he and the other chiefs would be more than willing to co-operate with the department in setting it up so that the road counts are a true sense of the amount of traffic that is on that road.

Is there any proposed work, except maintenance, on 513 on the books, or has it been brought to the department's attention for that?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) asked for consideration that the communities get involved when we do road counts. I would have to tell the member that their only reason is they want to get the number up. If we allowed every community in rural Manitoba to do it, they would be no further ahead, everybody would have high counts. It is all relative.

I would have to tell them that the process the department uses is the same all over. They may take counts at a certain time, but in terms of factoring that number to average for the year, weekend traffic activity, tourist traffic activity is taken into consideration in arriving at the number. So my interpretation is a number is relative to any other location in the province because the same process is used.

If they get there and put the counter out at a certain time and then you bias the number, then you have to open the door to every community to do the same and then the reliability of the numbers in a comparative sense just would not be there. I think the department is doing what they should do in that context.

He raised a number of other issues. At this stage 513 is not on any capital program. We are doing the regular maintenance activity. Clearly, this year there were at least two significant frost boil areas, real soft spots in the road, probably one of the places where the bus got stuck, and it was high water, but more particularly water from underneath that was coming up. It was not necessarily the surface water that was causing the trouble. I have to note that at the end of last week the department had been grading it very regularly, more than what would be called the normal standards, so they were responding to the circumstance. I presume they did it.

We are in the process of going to bring in some aggregate to those two frost boil spots to see if they could ridge over the softness of it and improve the quality of the road as a short-term measure because of the moisture coming up from underneath.

Brushing--clearly the department will do brushing if it is deemed at curves the visibility is not what it should be for safety. The snow clearing, the PTHs always get priority. So Highway 6 will always get priority over the PR 513, because the majority of traffic in the area is going up and down Highway 6. In the event of a snowstorm the plows are on No. 6 first; when that is completed they move to the PRs, of which 513 is one of them.

Because of the member's activity, the department is more aware of it. He has brought it to the attention of the department. I think the maintenance crew have responded as best they can in the conditions of spring, but it is Mother Nature who has had a hand in making things probably worse than normal this spring.

The traffic counts on 513 are down as low as a hundred by Anama Bay. I guess that is the east end, right? Over toward Gypsumville, of course, they get higher then, but the part the member is talking about is really that stretch from Gypsumville all the way to Dauphin River, which is a fairly long stretch.

The department is going through due process in terms of elevating it into the program when they deem it is appropriate in comparison to all the other roads that they give the same consideration to.

Mr. Clif Evans: Would the minister, once we are back in fall session, respond to a meeting when we are back in session if the community so wished to sit down with him?

Mr. Findlay: If the community so wished, yes.

Mr. Clif Evans: Because we did with the previous minister, and we would appreciate that?

Some questions on licence plates--

Mr. Findlay: On which?

Mr. Clif Evans: --licence plates. I have received a couple of letters. I am jumping off the roads into the vehicles. I have received a letter from Lakeshore School Division to you and also from the LGD of Grahamdale to you with a resolution to reinstate front plates.

Mr. Findlay: Front plates?

Mr. Clif Evans: Yes. Can the minister indicate in response?

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Mr. Findlay: While the staff is looking up a particular date, I want to remind the member that it was a previous administration, it was the Howard Pawley administration that made the decision, and we are just looking up which year, it was '83 or '85 or '87. They made the decision for financial reasons to have it go with one rear plate only. I think there is a broad level of support to go back to two licence plates, no doubt about it. It has come from citizens. It has come from law enforcement individuals that we need two licence plates.

That is definitely going to be taken into consideration when we get around to re-issuing a full issue of plates, and now with staggered renewals, you realize, of course, it cannot happen on one day, so, actually, you go through a whole 12-month cycle of licence plate renewal, so how close we are to that I cannot indicate.

I think it is fair to say that the complete issue of the kind of fully reflective plates that we want today is about $5 million. I think it is about $2.7 million for one plate and $5 million for two. Now, we all know the consumer will pay the cost, but I have had nobody say to me that we should have one plate--nobody. All the representation has been like the member said, two plates. It is a recommendation that I personally support, so I think you will see that the government will look at it in a very favourable light in the process of ultimately making a decision on a re-issue.

There is no point in going with a front licence plate on the old plates. A re-issue would be the time to do it. There are a lot of ideas around as to what the plate should look like, about what all it should contain, but I think we need the fully reflectorized plate, so it is visible at a distance, particularly at night. That is a five-million dollar touch, but the cost will eventually be paid by the user, and the user wants two plates.

Mr. Clif Evans: Just quickly on a lighter side of that same topic, I remember and I believe it was after '87 or '86, because I remember that my front licence plate at that time, which we still had to have, was stolen right from my yard to use. The people who stole the licence plate drove all the way to Winnipeg with my licence plate, a personalized licence plate at that, so I can appreciate the other side of it. I do not know how far they got with it.

If the minister can help me with this. I just want some advice, some support and some direction with this matter. I have a matter where a consumer has addressed the fact that he purchased a used automobile from a dealer and has basically gone through a lot of problems because of it. I have brought it to the attention of certain people. I had another case like this about six months ago, not from the same dealer, but we really got nowhere with the other issue, and we are getting nowhere with this issue, according to the constituent's call this morning again, asking me if I have brought it to anybody's attention.

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He indicated to me that it seemed strange that the department or the part of the department that deals with these issues is, as he calls it, going after another dealership or garage that sold the car, yet they seem to be backing off in doing what he feels is required on a larger dealership; in other words, two sets of rules.

I would like to get this settled. Who in the minister's department would be best suited to sit down with me, go over the file that I have and deal with this, because I understand that as of July 1, we have our new legislation in, and, really, I would like some direction from the minister as to whom I would speak to.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Findlay: You are referring to a car that was purchased from a dealer, and the car did not live up to expectations or something of that order?

Mr. Clif Evans: Yes, it had the safety thing on it from the dealership itself, and he found out that this was wrong.

Mr. Findlay: This was from a licensed dealer?

Mr. Clif Evans: Yes.

Mr. Findlay: And it had a safety certificate?

Mr. Clif Evans: Their own, yes.

Mr. Findlay: I would direct the member to Mr. Dan Coyle, the Registrar of Motor Vehicles. He would be the appropriate individual to work through.

Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that, and on the previous issue, I had gotten in touch with Mr. Coyle, and he, of course, passed it on to the appropriate area, but the consumer, the constituent, was not happy with the end result. I do not want to see the same thing happening with this, so I will be speaking with Mr. Coyle, and I would hope that the department can get more seriously involved on this. The constituent feels he is being railroaded, basically.

I have just one last question with respect to beavers, the Queen's own beavers, as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) calls them. At the Interlake constituency, you go in certain areas--

Mr. Findlay: They have infiltrated the province.

Mr. Clif Evans: Oh, for sure, like zebra mussels. Does the minister's department have a specific amount of monies made available for beaver control, a beaver fund?

Mr. Findlay: Give me the right verb, would you?

Mr. Clif Evans: What do you want done with them? First of all, I would like to know whether the Highways department has in its different regions any funds put away or on the side for beaver control on the highways.

Mr. Findlay: Well, clearly, I think the member just used the soft word, control of beavers, and he knows full well control means removing them.

We call in trappers to remove them, and we pay $30 an animal, and then, of course, they get the pelt value of the animal, so as part of Maintenance, staff decide where they become a problem and get a trapper to come in, usually a registered professional individual who does the trapping.

Mr. Clif Evans: So there is no specific fund then for that? It is just part of the Maintenance Program?

Mr. Findlay: It is part of Maintenance. I think the member knows there used to be 300,000 beaver, and there is now one for every citizen, over a million, so they are surviving very nicely, thank you.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(e) Regional Offices (1) Eastern Region Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): We will try and speed it up a little bit, Mr. Minister.

I do have a letter from a group representing the PTH No. 59 upgrading committee, and I have just one question on it.

Their last paragraph in the letter states, the people of southeastern Manitoba understand the financial pressures government is faced with. They have also done research on the relative safety, use and future importance of PTH 59 as compared to other roads. They know this project deserves priority attention and will not take kindly to funds being allocated to highway construction in other parts of the province where the facts do not demonstrate the same level of priority. We would like to be assured that this project is on top of the Highways agenda.

Now, I am not in the habit of speaking for southern Manitoba, but is it on top of the Highways agenda?

Mr. Findlay: I think the member for Flin Flon can appreciate that everybody who wants a highway built can write the same kind of letter, and I want mine at the top, but we clearly recognize the importance of that road. There is an awful lot of commuting traffic in and out of the city there, an awful lot of lanes on 259 and some curves there. It is a dangerous stretch. It is a high-traffic-volume stretch.

At this point in time, the project that we have in front of us is about 15, 16 kilometres from the Perimeter going south to I believe it is 210. Where we are at right now is last fall's program we approved the building of the approaches for the bridge. Because of wet weather the contract did not get going, but the approval is there.

In this spring's program the approval is there for building the bridge, which I would expect would occur over the next winter, and we have just finished expropriation of the last piece of property between the floodway and the Perimeter. That stretch is about three kilometres, and we have approved the funds for grading of that portion.

So from the Perimeter south, grading is committed, bridge abutments are committed, the bridge is committed. So a major component, I believe it is about $6 million--the total commitment in terms of dollars right now is about $9 million for the components I mentioned. The overall expected cost of the whole project is over $60 million, so a sixth of it is committed. It is going to be done in stages because of the high cost.

Mr. Jennissen: I am not sure if this will speed things up, Mr. Minister, but I am willing to sort of pass everything we have talked about until we get to the Northern Region Office 15.2 (e)(5).

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Highways and Transportation Programs (e) Regional Offices (1) Eastern Region Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,080,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $504,500--pass.

(2) South Central Regional Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,926,300--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $561,000--pass.

(3) South Western Region Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,879,000--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $469,000--pass.

(4) West Central Region Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,488,100--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $333,200--pass.

(5) Northern Region Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,181,900.

Mr. Jennissen: I have a whole series of questions. One of them is on the Moose Lake road 384. I just talked with the chief who happened to be in about an hour or two ago. I am not sure if this is confidential. It is an economic assessment. It says preliminary for discussion purposes only. He had only a very brief chance to talk with me about it but basically wanted me to ask some questions on that particular road 384.

I guess one of his concerns was that there seemed to be very heavy emphasis on the economic aspect of it and people were sort of being ignored. Is there some comment on that?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, the members were asking why it is focusing on economics. It was simply because the Moose Lake community--basically the Moose Lake Loggers came with Repap saying they wanted to build that stretch of road connecting 285 across to 384, basically a new stretch of road, and have it built to a TAC standard for the hauling of logs from the Moose Lake area. It meant building a new stretch of road and upgrading a fairly good section of 384 so they could handle the loads of logs that Moose Lake Loggers wanted to be moving to Repap. So they initiated the study which the department has done.

The whole focus from the outset was for the economics of the area, for the job opportunities of being able to supply timber to Repap from that region and to have a shorter route to get there and have a road that was built to handle the loads that they wanted to haul. It was a joint initiative by Moose Lake and Repap in concert that caused that to come together.

Mr. Jennissen: But the rest of the road from Moose Lake going down by the airport and bypassing that new leg, are there any plans for upgrading that? They are talking about ruts and a lot of dust, and there are some serious concerns about that. Is there anything new in the works?

Mr. Findlay: Which stretch are you--

Mr. Jennissen: Not the new stretch to the mill, but 384 itself.

Mr. Findlay: I would have to answer the member that, no, there are no upgrade reconstruction considerations right now on the books. It is just the maintenance of the road which is generally deemed to be not that bad of a gravel road. It does receive, because it is a long gravel road, the passing strip dust control sections of three kilometres every 16. Dust control is done at the Moose Lake community at the Moose Lake end of the road. So it gets its normal level of maintenance by the department standard.

Mr. Jennissen: Actually what I was going to ask was about the dust control because I do travel that road a fair bit or used to when I worked there off and on. Dust seemed to be a serious problem and a lot of washboard as well.

Mr. Findlay: When there is washboard, I mean that is an maintenance issue. It has to be graded and graded regularly, and then of course the speed of the traffic.

Mr. Jennissen: I would like to ask about some other northern roads. Some of my colleagues perhaps would have asked them if they were here, but they are not at the moment. Just maybe an update on what is happening to the Norway House 373 and Cross Lake 374. I know there are sections in there in the spring that really get bad. Can you update me a little bit on future plans for that road?

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Mr. Findlay: There is a stretch of 373, the first 12 kilometres east of Highway 6 right at--for lack of a better--the north end of 373 that is scheduled this year for grade and gravel, a million and a half dollars, 12.4 kilometres.

There is another stretch that would be north of Jenpeg halfway between Jenpeg and Wabowden. There are spot grade improvements at the cost of $250,000 that was in this year's spring program which hopefully will be done this summer. In this spring's program for probably doing next year is grade and gravel for $1.9 million on the next 12.4 kilometres towards Wabowden. This year we are doing the first 12.4 kilometres from Highway 6, and already programmed but likely to be done next year is the next 12.4 kilometres to take it all the way to Wabowden. There is another stretch down at the Norway House end, the Rossville junction; 11.2 kilometres has been approved for acquisition of right-of-way. So at both ends and in the middle there is work proceeding.

Mr. Jennissen: And 374 at Cross Lake?

Mr. Findlay: I am sorry, I said Wabowden; I should have said Sipiwesk junction. When I said 12.4 kilometres this year and 12.4 kilometres programmed for next year, it is to Sipiwesk junction. I misread the map.

Mr. Jennissen: On the Cross Lake road 374 there is nothing new?

Mr. Findlay: Just regular maintenance is scheduled for 374.

Mr. Jennissen: I used to travel to Cross Lake a fair bit, and one of the things I always wondered about is why there is no bridge there. Is that ever in a long-range sort of plan, or has it ever been considered?

Mr. Findlay: A bridge at Cross Lake?

Mr. Jennissen: Yes.

Mr. Findlay: I think I just found out the answer. It is a $10 million cost, so it is a very big cost. That is the No. 1 reason.

Mr. Jennissen: And that same applies then to Norway House? Taking that ferry there it looks like it would feasible to put a bridge there.

Mr. Findlay: The cost of the bridge at Sea Falls is $5 million--hefty items.

Mr. Jennissen: On No. 280 to Gillam, any updates on that?

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Mr. Findlay: On 280 from 391 to I guess it is called the Kettle Rapids area there, there is nothing but maintenance scheduled on 280. On 280 to Gillam, that portion is currently surfaced. We are spending $925,000 and Hydro is spending one and a half million dollars to do some repaving and some sealcoating, so there is a redoing of the surface of that road in co-operation between us and Hydro, with Hydro paying the majority of the cost. That has already been tendered, and the tender has been let, so it should happen this year.

Mr. Jennissen: So there are some shared costs with Hydro then.

Mr. Findlay: Yes.

Mr. Jennissen: Okay, now the question I have: Is that also the case then, let us say, with Repap? Does Repap also kick in money, because obviously they are heavy road users, and I would assume that with the agreement that was made with Repap they would pay some portion of the road maintenance.

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, we have negotiated a cost-sharing activity with Repap on the bridge at the Pasquia River on 283 west of The Pas. The total cost of the bridge and the associated grade and gravel is $800,000. They are paying a third of it, paying a third of the $800,000. They had initially come forward to have this project included in the infrastructure program, which was not accepted in that process, so we ended up paying two-thirds, and they are paying a third of the cost of the reconstruction on that bridge.

Mr. Jennissen: Is that all that Repap pays then? Are there no other agreements?

Mr. Findlay: There are no other agreements with them at this stage, no.

Mr. Jennissen: One of the comments I hear from a lot of northerners is that those big pulp trucks are pounding our roads all to hell, pardon the language, but we, the taxpayers, end up paying for the roads. That is one of the concerns. Now, that may be a misconception I would like the minister to clarify.

Mr. Findlay: Well, all those big trucks pay for licences, which comes into general revenue, which is part of our incoming revenue. They pay fuel tax, the company pays tax, and anybody who works for them pays tax, so in the whole activity of Repap a lot of tax is paid and vehicle licences are paid and fuel tax is paid, all of which comes into general revenue. So there in the process of normally doing business, they are contributing to the pot that goes to pay for roads, but wherever possible, I can assure the member, we try to strike a cost-sharing agreement that we can get them to agree to.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, the next road that I would like to deal with is probably one the minister would rather not deal with. A lot of us have some concerns about that 391. That is the road--

An Honourable Member: Surprise, surprise.

Mr. Jennissen: That is the one from Thompson to Leaf Rapids going by Nelson House and then to Lynn Lake.

Mr. Findlay: The member, I am sure, is aware that in '93 a project was started south of Leaf Rapids, 37 kilometres of base and AST which was completed in '94. From that point on to Nelson House, there are some 99 kilometres which has surveying and design going on. There is spot grade improvements, clearing and grubbing and additional gravel, for a total cost of $550,000. So there is an awful lot of gravel going to go on that 99 kilometres. It will happen this year. Not all of the 550 in terms of the--clearing and grubbing will happen this year, but the gravel will happen.

In a project just east of Nelson House for a 16.8-kilometre stretch on 391, base and AST, $750,000. Smook Bros. are the contractors, and they are currently underway.

Approved in the spring program of this year, which will happen next year, is grade and gravel for $3.3 million on a 15-kilometre stretch on 391, and it is approximately 35 kilometres west of 280. I am moving down from the North, working south. So we have base and AST; we have 99 kilometres of gravel. We have 16 kilometres of base and AST happening now and another 15 kilometres of grade and gravel programmed that will happen next year.

An awful lot is happening on the vast majority of that road.

Mr. Jennissen: Did the minister say that spring amount was $3 million?

Mr. Findlay: The 99-kilometre stretch is $550,000, the gravel; and the grade and gravel is $3.3 million, which is programmed now but will be done next year.

Mr. Jennissen: The concern that I always get when I get to Leaf Rapids, of course, is: Have I driven the road? I have to tell them that I drove the road because that is how I get in there, and they just feel that that road is not up to snuff at any point, especially in the spring. That is when people get stuck, and that is when ambulances cannot get through. There have been numerous complaints and committees, I think, especially spearheaded by Mrs. Barbara Bloodworth, but there is a whole group in the North that wants 391 upgraded, and I would like to go back to that group and say that is definitely happening.

They still, I think, assume that it is just cosmetic, that it is not any serious attempt to fix that road.

Mr. Findlay: It is definitely not cosmetic dollars. This is real commitment, and I think the member knows that I drove that road with staff--

Mr. Jennissen: Partway.

Mr. Findlay: The majority of it, from one end, then from the other end. It requires more gravel; there is no question about that. It requires probably significant maintenance to keep it in shape. We met with them, and I think their level of expectation over the course of the meetings they had with staff and myself, probably the level of demand did come down to something that was affordable. We responded with affordable volumes of money here to address the road and try to keep it in a better driving standard year round.

Mr. Jennissen: Would the minister honour that committee by driving to Leaf Rapids in the spring when it is at its worst?

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Mr. Findlay: You know, 24 hours a day, I have a lot of roads I might have to drive in the province. Every spring somebody has a real problem. Some people said I should come out and bring my canoe with me to travel their road this spring. There is no question in this province, the weather conditions we get that are unpredictable, that it is tough for staff to build and respond to keep the roads in perfect driving shape.

I commit that they do the best they can, and we are limited to how much funds we have. We are trying to allocate something to help everybody everywhere on an ongoing basis. I am not going to say it is going to be perfect. You cannot promise that. I do not think, if that member was a minister, he could promise it either. There are limitations all the time. We are always trying to maximize what you can do in terms of capital upgrade but, more particularly, in terms of constant maintenance to keep it in good shape. But there will undoubtedly always be periods of time when we cannot meet the commitment we would like to have made. It is a never-ending challenge.

In the staff that I met with and talked to up there, I came away with a comfort zone, that they really were committed to doing the job to the best of their capabilities, given the conditions they had to work with. We cannot change the conditions overnight. Some of the amenities of the North, the freedom of the openness and the rough and tough of it.

I want to remind the member, and I think I did earlier, that a lot of these roads were thrown in quickly. They were not built to an adequate standard; they were built to what is referred to as a pioneer standard, and now we are caught trying to catch up to get them into a standard, a very expensive cost to get them up to a standard we would all like them to be.

Mr. Jennissen: I certainly want to assure the minister that we are used to the rough and tough of it up there, especially when we drive to Lynn Lake, and that is the section--I guess it is still 391--that I would like to talk about or ask about. That was paved at one time, but it is really breaking down now. Signs are saying bumps ahead, next 74 kilometres. It has to be a world record. I am just wondering, are there any plans in the works to fix that?

Mr. Findlay: Starting at the Lynn Lake end we have bituminous pavement, 1977, for a stretch of--a fair stretch anyway. The next stretch is AST, in 1980, and there is a third stretch that gets you to Leaf Rapids which is bituminous pavement, 1975. There was a good surface there at one time, but there are areas there where you are over permafrost, and when you put a black ribbon on top of permafrost it draws a bit of heat. It does cause some problems with the movement of the road and the stability of the road, and there are a lot of big trucks travel over that road for commercial reasons. So those are tough conditions in which to build a road.

The ADM just reminded me that on that stretch of 280 up by Gillam that we are doing with Hydro, there is some experimental work going to happen there with heat exchange pipes to keep the permafrost permanently frozen, and they are heat pipes produced by a company in Elie. If they are successful in the experiment there they could be a bit of a solution to help maintain this road, keep the permafrost permanently frozen. So the experiment is being done there. I have talked to those people about the pipes, and they feel they work well. They are selling them all over the world and in provinces west of here where they say they work well. The cost of them has come down quite a bit over the last number of years, so we hope the experiment works on 280. It could be applied in other areas in the North where similar permafrost conditions exist under the road.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Jennissen: Just to get back to those heat pipes for a second, are they the same ones that they were talking about possibly using in the bayline?

Mr. Findlay: Exactly the same ones, yes, and there is a test stretch on Highway 6 south of Thompson currently occurring. It is the same principle.

Mr. Jennissen: Would we have any idea as to cost in terms of stabilizing a section of road, a mile, let us say?

* (1600)

Mr. Findlay: The test section on Highway 6 at Joey Lake, they really were cost prohibitive, and the reason for the further experiment on 280 is to see if they will work in a design that is more cost affordable in the future.

As I said earlier, we met with the people from Arctic Foundations, and they tended to convince us that the future cost compared to the cost of three or four years ago will be much more affordable for us. So there will be a technology that can be used, and, certainly, we are really interested relative to the bayline as to whether they could be a means of stabilizing that line.

Mr. Jennissen: So we do not have a ballpark figure on how far those costs have come down so we could use it economically for the bayline.

Mr. Findlay: Not at this time, no.

Mr. Jennissen: Continuing with 391 again, the section they call the South Bay road is also fairly rough, fairly bumpy. That has been upgraded or is in the process of being upgraded from Leaf to where the ferry--

An Honourable Member: To South Indian Lake?

Mr. Jennissen: Yes.

Mr. Findlay: In last spring's program, we approved an environmental assessment survey and design for a 22-kilometre stretch which extends the existing road around the north side of South Bay toward South Indian Lake. There has been a request--I think it is part of the Northern Flood Agreement--that there be a road built, an extra 22 kilometres built, where we have approved an environmental assessment survey and design this past spring.

Mr. Jennissen: But there is no upgrading then of the first section of it right to the bay.

Mr. Findlay: Not at this time, no.

Mr. Jennissen: The new section being proposed to go around and then tie in to South Indian Lake, is there some connection with, like you were saying, the Flood Agreement and the fact that there is treaty land entitlement process on? Will the province be paid some money by the feds for this road or for a possible bridge?

Mr. Findlay: Although it is part of the Northern Flood Agreement, the cost has been left to us 100 percent, as the Department of Highways.

Mr. Jennissen: I raised this question earlier with the minister of when those road contracts will eventually be tendered. I guess the people of South Indian Lake really felt that they would like to be part of that. There is such great unemployment there. The fishing industry is not going well because the subsidies have been cut back for freshwater fish, the transport and so on, and I guess they really want jobs. I know there is no direct affirmative action plan for companies, but they certainly would like to be kept in mind if there are jobs over there. They have made that specific request to me, so I will just pass that on to you.

Mr. Findlay: When I was in Leaf Rapids, they were there, and they made the same request and commented the same as I did to you earlier. I mean our mission is get the road built to our specs at the lowest cost. Certainly, they have an opportunity to bid or get subcontract work or do the smaller projects on construction orders that the department does. There are ways and means of which they can get work. We just cannot guarantee it.

Mr. Jennissen: I would like to switch over now to the Sherridon road from Highway 10 to Sherridon-Cold Lake. That is a very winding, narrow road, and the concerns that some of the residents of Sherridon and Cold Lake have expressed were concerns such as they need more brush clearance along the side of the road because visibility is poor. I know there had been some brush clearing last year. Is there expected to be more this year?

Mr. Findlay: Under the previously approved, we have spot grade improvements on 75 kilometres, and I can tell the member we met with the mayor of Sherridon three or four months ago, something like that, and talked about the need for some improvements, plus we have some money in the previously approved budget for brushing along the 55-kilometre stretch, again another component that they requested, thought was important to do. Brushing and spot grade improvements are both in the previously approved portion of the program, and it seemed to meet the immediate urgent request of the mayor when we met with him, I think it was, back in February or March.

(The Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Jennissen: There have been a series of serious accidents on that road because pulp trucks use it and so on, and it is fairly rough and narrow and winding. One point that people from Cold Lake and Sherridon keep bringing up over and over again is, could that road be upgraded in status, let us say, a designated road? Is that a possibility in the near future?

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Mr. Findlay: Well, it is currently a main market road. It was initially roughed in as a pioneer trail and now is being expected to serve much greater needs or uses than it was ever initially intended for. We are strapped to the wall to meet our demands on the existing designated roads. Because we were in trouble, we turned back 2,000 kilometres and still have not heard the last of it.

To start adding to the network now, it would have to be a tremendously justified case. It is difficult to be able to do that at this time, I have to tell the member to be very honest with him.

Mr. Jennissen: Could I ask the minister, and this is more in the nature of a long-range vision, and I know it is a bit off the wall perhaps even, but are there any studies that could give me some idea of the cost if there were to be a road, let us say, from south of Lynn Lake, Fox Lake Mine to the furthest point north from Sherridon, probably around Kississing Lake, I would think? That stretch is about 100-150 kilometres.

Mr. Findlay: When I look at the map, I can see why people would want a road through there, that kind of a connection from Lynn Lake all the way to Flin Flon. It is some 300 kilometres approximately, and the grade and gravel and the appropriate bridges that would be needed, $250 million. So every time we ask for figures on roads or bridges anywhere in this province, it just scares you.

I mean, the construction industry would love that kind of job, but the taxpayer would be a long time paying for it. So it is a long distance, and it is very expensive.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, I realize that. I had not thought it was that big a distance, though. I am going now by as far as we go by Kississing Lake road past Sherridon, not right from Flin Flon, and I thought it more in the nature of 150 kilometres. I know it cannot be done right now, but I would just point out to the minister that somewhere in the future, though, in terms of tourism, if we had that round road, I think we could pull an enormous number of tourists up north. It would just make things so much simpler. I know it cannot be done now, but, if you had a 20-year sort of span, you could do a little bit each year.

Mr. Findlay: The other part of the equation, I would remind the member, if you even proposed that, can you imagine the environmental assessment harangue we would go through trying to get approval for the route? It would be a long process. It is not easy today, although maybe getting the money might be the easier part than getting the public approval through the environmental approval process.

But when you look at the map, for a commercial activity, for tourism, for citizen movement, it would be a very, very good route. I know it is an area--the construction industry would love that kind of injection into their industry.

Mr. Jennissen: Well, I was also thinking at it from the point of view of access of people to roads, specifically Pukatawagan and Granville Lake, and since they are either reserves or about to become reserves, I was hoping the feds would throw in lots of money, but it does not appear to be the case.

Mr. Findlay: They are more broke than we are.

Mr. Jennissen: So I would like to just talk in general now, over all those regions, not just the northern region, that is, the number of vacancies, and are they being filled?

Mr. Findlay: In the total in the department or in the regions?

Mr. Jennissen: In each of the regions, because I did not do that for each specific region.

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, I will give the member, by the five regions, the total number of SYs and the number of vacancies.

Region 1, 53 SYs, three vacancies; Region 2, 49 SYs, four vacancies; Region 3, 46 SYs, two vacancies; Region 4, 37 SYs, seven vacancies; Region 5, 28 SYs, six vacancies.

In Region 5, in Thompson, we have had several mechanics resign because they have taken jobs with Inco, being offered higher salaries. So it is a bit of an anomaly in Thompson because better salaries are being offered by Inco, and we lost quite a few staff.

Mr. Jennissen: In Region 4, seven vacancies out of 37 seems very high. Are they planned to be filled?

Mr. Findlay: In all cases the department fills according to need. You mentioned Region 4, three of the positions are in the process of being filled, three out of the seven at this time.

That is not saying that the rest will not be filled in due course, but they will be filled according to identified need.

Mr. Jennissen: I would like to just switch a little bit to statistics here on highway construction expenditures in the North versus the provincial total. I am hoping that these figures are accurate. I think they are accurate.

In 1981-82, out of the total budget, the North was getting 21.9 percent, and a decade later by 1991-92, it was 5.7 percent. Can the minister explain why this trend exists? There might have been good reasons for it, but I would like to hear them because northerners labour under the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that they are being shortchanged in terms of the total road dollars available to them.

Mr. Findlay: There is a little bit more history to those figures than just what you see on paper there comparing percentages and different periods of time.

Back in the early '80s there was a lot of federal cost-sharing going on, a lot of federal money coming in, a lot of roads being built. The federal component is also in those figures. The Gillam road, Hydro contributed a fair bit, as they are to the reconstruction I mentioned earlier. Both federal dollars are there and Hydro dollars are there. We would have to do a bit of homework to determine the actual amount in those figures that was just provincial government.

When you get down to today's figures, the '91 figures, you are looking at just provincial dollars. The federal government does not have any dollars in there. Just recently we got some contributions from Hydro on Highway 280 at Gillam.

They are a little misleading because there was a bit of a boom time going on and federal dollars were flowing in. If federal dollars would flow in again or Repap dollars or Inco dollars or anybody to lessen our burden we would be very interested in trying to do more without the taxpayers of Manitoba having to share every dollar of cost.

Mr. Jennissen: To get back to Repap dollars, I am just wondering when the contract was signed with Repap why that was not written in so that Repap would be obligated to share road costs, because they are obviously heavy road users.

Mr. Findlay: Repap, the agreement was signed a few years ago. Clearly, the value of pulp dropped significantly, and they were not financially able to meet all their commitments in terms of what they had proposed to do. I guess it is fair to say the value of pulp is now getting back to be a little more attractive, and the discussions with them do continue.

Mr. Jennissen: I have the estimated expenditures 1994-95, so those figures might not be totally accurate. If they are accurate based on a $190 million provincial road construction--this year I think it is more like $111 million and the North is $5,714,000 that would make it 5.2 percent of those figures are accurate. That would be the lowest, I think, of possibly all the years. Am I correct on those figures?

Mr. Findlay: Well, figures do not lie. I told the member earlier the other day that in the spring program this past year the North received $7.7 million out of $52 million, I believe it was, of the total spring program which is roughly 14 to 15 percent of the total expenditures of the spring program of '95-96 in the North. That is responding to the issues we are doing on 391 and 373 and Highway 6 and Highway 280.

Mr. Jennissen: If these figures are correct though it would indicate a gradual lessening of our proportion of the money and it would be difficult to sell to northerners. You know we are getting a little bit less and less of that road budget every year, proportionately, and yet tremendous wealth comes out of the North with the hydro, pulp, the minerals, and we pay the taxes and so on.

The northerners do not believe this is a fair formula I guess is what I am saying, and I am wondering if we can get the minister to admit that or to change the formula.

Mr. Findlay: I would just like the member to go back and read the letter he just read to me from Highway 59. Therein lies the answer. Everybody says we are the priority, and Highway 59 people said the only priority of the province should be to spend everything on us for the next year to get it done and exclude everything else. We cannot do that. We have to try to address every region of the province, every year.

We have identified a higher portion of the last spring program to the North, given the weather-related circumstances of last year which were rather phenomenal. It caused road degradation that we responded to as we will in any region that encounters the kind of circumstances that Mother Nature sometimes causes us to have to deal with.

In Swan River, after the flood of I believe it was '89, a lot of bridges and roads were rebuilt there to respond to the urgency that happened there. I think our cost in there was something like $6 million or something in that area.

We do what we can with scarce resources. That is the way it has always been. Do not forget to remind people that Hydro and the federal government had a lot of dollars in those figures of 10 and 15 years ago.

Mr. Jennissen: I guess when you are comparing 391 to 59 the difference probably is, if you live in a community along 59 you must have some other roads, probably three or four or five other roads. If you live in Leaf Rapids you only have 391. That is the only way you can get out. If it is springtime and you lose the bottom of your car, your muffler for sure, you do not have much choice.

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Mr. Findlay: I would just ask the member to help us when he is talking to people from Highway 59 to remind them that there is 391 up north and, in fairness, we are trying to deal with them all.

An Honourable Member: Is this an invitation to the rubber chicken circuit?

* (1630)

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I would like the member for Flin Flon and the honourable minister to just give me an opportunity to get into that discussion, although I cannot. I have a few things to say on Highway 59, too.

An Honourable Member: You are excluded from the discussion.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I think the minister and I have had a number of those discussions.

Mr. Jennissen: I think we could talk on northern roads probably for five hours if we had the time. I would just, I think, draw this to a close.

There is one other thing. Someone just handed this to me about 10 minutes ago and it is not with the North at all, but if I could bring it up, it is a constituent matter. Basically, it deals with a Mr. Neil McArthur who lives just north of Winnipeg Beach, approximately one and three-quarters to two miles on the east side.

The Department of Highways has expropriated a portion of his land and has agreed to pay Mr. McArthur some $16,900 for that chunk of land. This agreement was struck as far back as 1993. To date, he has not been paid, and now the construction crews want to start removing his tall spruce trees in his yard. He is concerned that he has not been paid and claims he will not let the crews onto his land until he receives payment.

I envision the gentleman standing there with a shotgun. I do not know, but could you check on this?

Mr. Findlay: Give me the location again, the name and the location.

Mr. Jennissen: The gentleman's name was Mr. Neil McArthur, and it is just north of Winnipeg Beach, approximately one and three-quarters to two miles on the east side. That is all the information I have.

Mr. Findlay: Well, land purchases are done by the Land Acquisition branch of Government Services, although when they are not successful in negotiating a purchase, the expropriation is eventually signed by this minister.

But the cheque should have been issued. We will follow up to see if there is any reason why it was not. If the cheque was not issued, that would mean there is some unresolved component. Naturally, we cannot be moving on to a piece of property to do construction unless all the legal components are looked after in terms of acquisition of the property, and that ultimately means paying for it.

We will inquire through Government Services what has not happened here that is supposed to have happened.

Mr. Jennissen: I actually have no further questions for this section.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Highways and Transportation Programs (e) Regional Offices (5) Northern Region Office (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,181,900--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $325,000--pass.

Item 2.(f) Winter Roads (Recoverable from Canada: $515,000) $2,575,000.

Is it the will of the committee to take a five-minute recess and leave the clock running? [agreed]

The committee recessed at 4:24 p.m.

________

After Recess

The committee resumed at 4:32 p.m.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(f) Winter Roads (Recoverable from Canada: $515,000) $2,575,000.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, on Winter Roads, I am taking a look at two years ago, and there seems to be quite a drastic cut. I noticed, I believe it was 1993, the Estimates refer to $3,575,000. That is down by about a million dollars. Would you comment on that, please?

Mr. Findlay: The department has done exactly the same network of roads. The cost figure is down by a million dollars. What the department found is, and they were doing a lot of tendering as well as negotiated contracts, and they found that the tendered contracts were much lower than the negotiated ones. So the department is in the process of trying to bring the negotiated contracts more in line with the contracts that are tendered, so we get exactly the same network of winter roads done at a lower cost to the taxpayer of Manitoba.

There is no question that last year was a tough year for winter roads because it was so mild in the winter. It took a long time to get some of the roads in, and I think maybe one or two roads may not have been able to have been brought to full ice depth even when the season was at its coldest, and then the season of use was shortened up because it was not long till things started to warm up again in the beginning of March. Last year was a really tough year for getting the roads in for the length of time that the people that haul goods are used to being able to use the roads.

The same network was done. The reason for the difference of cost is simply the difference between negotiated and tendered contracts.

Mr. Jennissen: It is one of the Activity Identifications--or pardon me, one of the objectives is hauling of freight and a maximized creation of local employment opportunities. That is very laudable but is there not a third factor like people moving? Whenever I see a winter road, for example, to Pukatawagan the people are just waiting to be able to get out to buy cheaper groceries so that must obviously be an objective as well or is that not the original intent?

Mr. Findlay: The original reason for the winter road--it is still the primary reason--is to haul goods in, to get them into the communities to serve over the next nine or 10 months, whether it is fuel or whatever it is, whether it is for the community or whether it is for Hydro or for telephone, to bring those commodities in at much lower cost obviously than alternate ways of getting the supplies in.

A secondary benefit, not for which the winter road project was initially intended, is the ability of citizens to get out of the community and drive to wherever. It is a secondary benefit but clearly in terms of use of the road, it is a rising level of use, a significant rising level of use.

Mr. Jennissen: Do the same rules apply in the sense that they apply to provincial roads? If I said, a private vehicle is on a winter road, I am not sure what the rules and the regulations are--no stop signs obviously.

Mr. Findlay: The reason I was laughing is the member does not really realize the kettle of fish he is starting to open up here, because the use of the road is increasing by vehicles from those isolated communities and there is a concern for safety on the roads, speeds and all that sort of thing.

We had given consideration to bringing in under The Highway Traffic Act that the rules of the road should apply. Well, there was strong objection amongst the First Nations communities for us doing that, so we have not done it--might prefer that it be done, but they wanted the freedom.

Mr. Jennissen: Does that do anything to insurance if you have an accident on that stretch of road? Does that impact it at all?

Mr. Findlay: To the best of our knowledge, MPIC has honoured any claims for vehicles that are registered, that are licensed, but many of those vehicles operate unlicensed, unregistered, because in the isolated community they do not need to be. If people license and register their vehicles, then they will be, as far as we know, covered by MPIC, but even though I say not by law that the rules of the road apply, we would hope that responsibly they do apply but if push comes to shove, they are not included in The Highway Traffic Act.

Mr. Jennissen: Regarding contracts for private roads, what was last year's contract for Norwin? They had a contract.

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Mr. Findlay: Norwin draws funds from, as far as we know, two directions, one from us; $650,000 was paid to them last year. They also draw an amount of money we do not know about from SERDAC, which receives their money from the federal government. So we have paid them $650,000. We presume it is half of the cost, but we do not know how much SERDAC paid them.

Mr. Jennissen: Now, is there a set operating season with winter roads? Pardon my ignorance. Is there a date set, or do you just go by the weather?

Mr. Findlay: Generally speaking, there are approximate dates. I think, approximately, they might be open from six to eight weeks, but it is very dependent upon weather. I mean, we have engineers or staff people out there who measure the depth of the ice, and, of course, you have to have a certain amount of cold weather. You get the snow off. You flood water to get the depth of the ice up where you deem it now safe for different weights of vehicles to travel over it.

Last year, would be the shortest period, I think, in a long, long time of actual use. It took a long time to get some of the roads in, and, then, as I said earlier, they did not last as long as the normal six- to eight-week period. I think some of them might have been as short as two to three weeks. Staff is saying, even though they might have been open, some were not up to full weight capacity. They did not have the adequate depth of ice for safety.

Mr. Jennissen: I think that is about all I have for winter roads, but I think my honourable colleague here may have a few questions, if you do not mind.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, in the last budget Estimates process, I had raised the issue with the minister with respect to the winter road system connecting Split Lake and York Landing and what I consider to be a roller coaster ride or deplorable conditions of the road. At that time, I had asked the minister if there had been any negotiations between department officials and Manitoba Hydro officials to try and resolve this type of winter road network that links those communities with the outside world.

I had thought at that time, if I recall correctly, that there may have been some discussions taking place. Perhaps the minister can clarify for me if, indeed, there are discussions taking place.

Is Manitoba Hydro going to be participating in any upgrading of that winter road network, that portion of it, since it is my understanding that the winter roads have to run through muskeg and bush country because there is fluctuation in the water levels on the lake, where the winter roads had previously run in prior years.

So is Hydro playing a role in this process now to upgrade those winter road systems, and is the department planning or contemplating upgrading that road link between Split Lake and York Landing?

Mr. Findlay: Just for clarification, you are referring to upgrading the existing route that is on land, like in terms of levelling the terrain. Yes, okay.

No discussions have taken place with Hydro that has led to any commitment from them to do any work on levelling the terrain. The member mentioned that the levels of the water has precluded being out where it might be more level, and Hydro, you say, indicating Hydro has, in your mind, some responsibility to improve the levelness of the terrain on which the winter road is built, but no discussion has led to that sort of conclusion.

Mr. Reid: Well, I guess I have been wrongly under the assumption then that it was the mandate of the Department of Highways to try and upgrade or improve highway conditions throughout the province whenever and wherever possible. I must say, if there has been no negotiations between the department and Manitoba Hydro to try and impress upon them the onus on Hydro's part, at least from my understanding of circumstances the responsibility that they have, I think the department has not fulfilled part of its mandate to try and improve those conditions.

That is one of the reasons why I raised it last year when I was the critic. I have personally travelled over that road. I know the minister's staff, at least some of them, and maybe even the minister himself, have travelled over that road. But if the minister has not, I recommend you take a trip on that winter road when it is open during its season because you will be appalled at the conditions at which people have to travel.

I can frankly tell you I do not know how any of the semitruck traffic can negotiate some of those curves and some of those hills that are on that road network system, and yet that is the vital link to the outside world that York Landing has in particular.

If there is any way that steps can be taken to initiate the discussions with Manitoba Hydro to impress upon them that there is some responsibility on their part--I know looking at some of the legislation before the House now with respect to the Split Lake legislation that we have before the Chamber now--maybe this is something that the minister can talk to his colleague responsible for Northern and Native Affairs to have him take that as part of the negotiations as well. Maybe that is another avenue that the minister can explore to try and include that upgrading of that road as part of the conditions of settlement.

Mr. Findlay: I thank the member for his input. Yes, that might be a fruitful opportunity to get Hydro to understand they might have some responsibility here given that they caused the location of the winter road to be moved because of activities they are involved in. Although we have not achieved anything yet it does not mean we will not try in the future. There might be some opportunity because of the negotiations that are ongoing to have that included.

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Mr. Reid: Last year I believe, I think it was the Shamattawa band council was at least, I will use the term "sabre-rattling"--maybe it is out of context here--talking about imposing toll roads on the link to their community. Has that issue been resolved to this point?

Mr. Findlay: This last year the department negotiated a 50-50 contract with Shamattawa for the building of the road. So the issues of the past, the threatening of a toll road, did not materialize. The department got the road done for $177,000. It was a much better job than in the past and Shamattawa built the road, and I think also used another contractor in the process. A good road was built; 50-50 cost-sharing, no more talk of toll road.

Mr. Jennissen: I was wondering if I could get a breakdown on the cost of construction for winter roads with regard to it being provincial and federal component and a third party whatever that may be, a reserve I presume or Hydro?

Mr. Findlay: Cost per kilometre?

Mr. Jennissen: I am just wondering how much? If this was total dollars, how much would the province pay, how much does the federal pay and who is that third party, and how much do they pay?

Mr. Findlay: Of the total winter road expenditure of $2.575 million, $245,000 is 100 percent provincial winter road cost. That leaves $2.3 million that is shareable with Canada and third parties, and the recoverable from Canada in that sharing agreement is $515,000. The recoverable from Shamattawa was another $88,000, half of the contract cost.

Mr. Jennissen: There is a road from Sherridon or near Sherridon to Pukatawagan--a winter road. Right?

Mr. Findlay: Yes.

Mr. Jennissen: I wonder if you could give me how long that road is and who serviced that contract last year, sort of a dollar figure.

Mr. Findlay: The cost?

Mr. Jennissen: The cost and also the length of it.

Mr. Findlay: There are two stretches of road in that area, one from Fay Lake junction to Kississing Lake, 28 kilometres, $12,000 cost, and then the big stretch the rest of the way, 77 kilometres, $101,000, so total length is 115 kilometres and $113,000.

Mr. Jennissen: Was that handled by a local contractor, like Pukatawagan or Sherridon, that area?

Mr. Findlay: The smaller section, the first section I gave him, the 28 kilometres, was done by Ottavia Budai, contractor.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, I know him, locally.

Mr. Findlay: --and Pukatawagan Development Corporation did the longer stretch.

Mr. Jennissen: One concern I have, and I do not want to talk too legalistically, but when I was in South Indian Lake--I flew in there and also I flew into Pukatawagan, and it was about that time when it was very close to ice breakup, but I could see half-ton trucks actually using winter roads when from the air it looked awfully unsafe. I am just wondering, in the eventuality that something terrible does happen, some tragedy, legally could the province be sued, or the road system? I am not sure how this would work, but it is just one of those things that made me wonder.

First of all, people should not have been on that road, but they were, and if something happened--

Mr. Findlay: We certainly have a problem there, because we will post the road that it is not open, not ready for traffic, or at the end of the season we will post that the road is closed or maybe even to be used only at night, but we have no authority to prevent people from using it, even though it is posted and they use it at their own risk. We post it not to use it, they use it at their risk, but we have no authority to do anything to stop them from using it. They do it at their discretion. Surprisingly, I am not aware of any incidents associated with that, but you are right; they are doing it at the beginning and at the end of the season, times when the department recommendation is not to be using it.

Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister for all that information. It is very useful for me. I would like to turn this over now to some of my colleagues from Rupertsland and, I believe, Thompson.

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Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I believe that I would like to ask the minister, or Mr. Chairperson perhaps, just to respond to me since--

An Honourable Member: Could I ask the member to speak up. I am having trouble because of all the fans or maybe even change seats there would be very helpful. You are a big man, but you have a soft voice.

Mr. Robinson: At times.

There are a couple of questions I have, Mr. Chairperson, for the minister, with respect, and I know my colleagues the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) and the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) have raised this issue about the Norwin contract with the bands of the Southeast Tribal Council and as well with the Island Lake tribal council.

Last year we had a bit of a problem prior to the start of the winter road season being opened with respect to the cuts by this government and the contract that Norwin had anticipated. I am wondering as to what stage the negotiations are at this year for the upcoming winter road season, '95-96.

Mr. Findlay: Norwin had a five-year contract, five-year agreement, which is now concluded and in that contract the amount to be paid was to be negotiated each year, but that agreement is now concluded.

Last year I met, along with staff, with Norwin and we had asked that over the course of this past winter they keep records as to hours of equipment use so we could have some idea as to whether the contract was close to being accountable relative to the hours of equipment use that were involved in building the road. That information did not come forward over the course of the winter, so it makes it difficult for us to negotiate on the same basis for next year as we did over the last five.

Mr. Robinson: I believe I heard the minister say, Mr. Chairperson, that the ball is sort of in a park of the Norwin group as far as coming to the province to negotiate a new contract, realizing that the five-year contract has now expired. Is that what the minister has said?

Mr. Findlay: The five-year contract that had been in place is now completed. At this stage there is no contract for the future.

Mr. Robinson: Chief Larry Barker, who is the chairperson of the Norwin group, and others that are a part of that, Chief Geordie Little of Garden Hill, Chief Harper of Red Sucker Lake, Chief McDougall of Wasagamack, Chief Joe Guy Wood of St. Theresa Point and, of course, the communities along the southeast communities have made pleas to this government to get back to the negotiating table as far as a renewal, as far as I understand, for a new agreement with respect to a new contract as far as the road from Hollow Water to the Island Lake communities and all the tributaries that result from that road reaching the Allen Lake areas.

I am wondering how swiftly are the officials of the minister's department going to be moving to begin the negotiations to perhaps renew a contract with Norwin?

Mr. Findlay: A meeting has been set for June 29 to start the discussion process agreed to on both sides.

Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, another concern that has been expressed to us, while the winter road season is open, which the minister and his department can well appreciate, it kind of offsets the burden that is experienced on a regular basis by the people in the remote communities that are serviced by the winter road system, and many rely on that to get their year's supply of building materials and gasoline and such commodities. So it is a very important link to the outside world for these communities that rely on the winter road system.

As well, it is used--particularly the J.J. Harper Memorial Trail, which begins at Hollow Water into the Island Lake area--during the duration of the winter road season.

I would like to ask the minister and his department, is the winter road system indeed designated as a provincial road during the course of the winter season?

Mr. Findlay: No, it is not. The restrictions or speed limits or weight controls on those roads are not covered in The Highway Traffic Act.

There had been some discussion with the First Nations communities about doing that. There was not a desire to proceed to include it in The Highway Traffic Act.

Mr. Robinson: I just have one question, Mr. Chairperson, on this particular subject, on the Norwin construction group.

I am glad to hear that the meeting has been established for the 29th of June. I am wondering how quickly the minister anticipates his department to conclude an agreement so that the people of these remote communities will be able to look forward to a winter road. I am just wondering if the negotiations, the dialogue with the First Nations communities that are involved with Norwin, if that will be put in high gear, so to speak, with respect to coming up with an agreement.

Mr. Findlay: I cannot predict how long negotiations will take because I do not know what issues the two parties are going to bring to the table that will be in dispute. After the first meeting we might have a degree of understanding as to the differences that exist between us and the First Nations and then Norwin in this particular instance. I cannot predict. I would hope they would proceed fairly rapidly after all the discussions that were held last year, but at this stage it is not possible to predict.

Mr. Robinson: I would like to thank the minister for his responses on these questions that are of very great importance to many northern communities and particularly the remote ones that rely on these winter road systems to ease the high cost of living in northern communities. Many times the cost of living is sometimes four or five, six times greater than that in southern Manitoba.

My colleague the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) also asked a question about the Gillam to Shamattawa winter road system. I understand that the minister did respond to that. The agreement that is being worked upon, is that with the Shamattawa First Nation or is that with the federal government? I do not believe that we were clear on that.

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Mr. Findlay: Shamattawa First Nation.

Mr. Robinson: One very quick question on that. I believe it was '93-94, the winter road season from Gillam to Shamattawa was limited to about 10 days I believe that year. Contrary to what the band there felt, it should have been much longer than the 10 days it was. I am wondering if that--such things like this in a time to come, in years to come could perhaps be taken into consideration, particularly when the roads were in fairly good shape but the maintenance was not kept up.

Mr. Findlay: In '93-94, there was some dispute over building it as a toll road. So the end result is, we built it as a department, 100 percent our cost, and kept it open for 10 days. Then Shamattawa Band operated it from that point on. We understand they kept it open and used it for a longer period of time. In '94-95, this past year, as I mentioned earlier to a response to a question of the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), it was done on a 50-50 basis with Shamattawa, at a cost of $177,000. A very good road was put in this past year. The whole process worked a lot better this past year than it did the year before.

Mr. Robinson: As is outlined in the appropriations of this department, we are trying to, as well, maximize employment opportunities for local community members in the areas that winter road systems are established. Two questions, I guess, in one: Firstly, will local people be utilized in the building and in the maintenance of these winter roads? As well, with the winter roads system, will the province be fair in its negotiations as far as contributing a fair share to the construction and maintenance of the winter road systems in northern Manitoba?

Mr. Findlay: I can say we always want to be fair, but what the member must realize is that our mission is to maximize the amount of road activity, maintenance and construction we can have done throughout the province at the lowest possible cost. The lower the cost for any given unit, the more miles of work we can get done. At the same time, we try to be fair to all partners in the process. Whether fair is good enough in terms of the member's interpretation, only time will tell, but the department definitely does try to be fair in the process.

Mr. Ashton: I too have a number of questions in terms of roads. I know some of these issues have been raised in the past. As the minister is aware too, through some correspondence, I have raised a number of these issues, so I would also like to indicate from the start that I am quite happy with written responses if that is required in terms of detail. I am not expecting the minister will respond immediately on some of the issues, although some of them I have already in correspondence.

On Highway 391, I know there has been some discussion on that, but I am wondering, beyond the current allocations, what the long-term plans are for 391, without getting into some of the more political debate we have been involved in with 391. I think a lot of people in communities, Nelson House, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake and communities that rely on the road, such as South Indian Lake, are seeking some indication as to what the long-term planning is. There is some work taking place this year, but I would appreciate some indication over the next five-year period, or whatever the department considers long term, what the prospects are. Quite frankly, I think the bottom line is for some form of hard surface, seal coat, some improved surface over the current surface.

As the minister is aware, 391 basically, in a lot of areas, is down to bedrock; it is down to rocks. You are dealing with surface that goes back to the early '70s, so that is one issue I would like to raise on behalf of, certainly, my constitutents in Thompson and Nelson House.

Another issue is in terms of the road into Split Lake, 280. Basically, I would suggest, the big concern there is in terms of the width of the road. There have been a number of accidents already which I think are indirectly related to the width of the road. There was a very tragic accident involving a young resident of Gillam that hit a parked car, and I realize other circumstances, but there have been a number of incidents of that nature.

Believe me, I have been on the road at the point where I have nearly ended up in the ditch because of large vehicles pretty well dominating the driveable surface of the road. I know that Chief Garson at Split Lake has raised this concern repeatedly with myself and others, and I would just like to indicate that there are specific sections too which I know the Split Lake Band will be more than prepared to help the department identify as being problem areas. They are, I think, looking at that as being the kind of upgrading that is needed.

A lot of my constituents in Wabowden use 373. Many have family ties with Cross Lake. I realize that may have been raised by other members of the Legislature, but 373 is obviously a road that requires a great deal of upgrading. I have also mentioned to the department, in the past, suggestions from the community of Wabowden that if there is going to be upgrading taking place there, one way of looking at it would be the possibility of constructing from Wabowden directly through what used to be the old bombardier trail, which is considerably less distance. That may be a prospect, and I would appreciate some indication as to whether that is technically feasible.

Another community concern for both York Landing and Ilford is all-weather road access. In the community of York Landing, and I have corresponded with the minister on this, obviously, the first preference would be, in terms of connection into Split Lake, which would hook up into 280, an all-weather road. There also, however, is the question of York Landing to Ilford. In 1977, there had been approval for a York Landing-Ilford road connection. This would allow for a couple of things. For people living in Ilford, it would allow for access to York Landing, which does have ferry service for most of the summer. So it does, in fact, give some all-weather road access. For people from York Landing, it would allow access to the bayline.

Just by way of information, with the signing and the process ongoing, the approval of the Northern Flood Agreement, the community of York Landing is now going to be receiving a significant amount of land in its formerly traditional area, in addition to some of the traditional use areas it has had in York Factory areas. So what that means basically is, people are increasingly returning to York Factory, and it is a lot easier for people if they can access the train, fly into Churchill and charter from Churchill than it is currently, where they have to charter a plane, say, out of Gillam to pick them up in York Landing and then go to York Factory, which is about three or four times the expense.

I would indicate, technically, too, the current winter road that runs through there runs basically on a ridge area that does not require significant bridge structures or crossing of water. It is all land. It is all fairly high ground. That is one of the reasons that route was selected before. The reason I am saying that is because I know the department has responded on the York Landing-Split Lake portion, indicating that is fairly expensive because of that fact of the water that is involved. So I would appreciate some update on the York Landing-Ilford issue, and I know that certainly the community of York Landing, York Factory in particular, has raised a number of these issues with the department.

A couple of other issues, one is with Thicket Portage. I know my colleague the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) was in Thicket Portage with me just over a year ago and heard the concerns first-hand. Thicket Portage, actually, is in a unique position. It is going to have road access by 1997, if the current plans continue, because of Repap. So the big concern in Thicket Portage obviously is in terms of what the status of that road would be, if it would be maintained at all by the Department of Highways. I would certainly urge that it would be because, quite frankly, it will make a significant benefit to that community.

Obviously Pikwitonei is another community I have raised in the past. It is in a different situation because Repap is not that close to Pikwitonei currently, and Repap does not have the same kind of timber in that area. It may access it at some point down the line, but I would like to ask if there are any feasibility studies that have been undergoing in terms of Pikwitonei.

Just to finish off, the bottom line with the concerns I have raised is obviously to upgrade some of the existing roads, 391, 280 and 373, but also to give consideration to the communities that do not have roads, period. Pardon me, one other thing I should mention on that is, those communities that are impacted or served by winter roads have raised this concern--I know this was raised, I think, last year by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid)--that is, in terms of the possibility of extending the winter road season. That did not apply this year because of the weather conditions, to say the least. It was barely possible to have any kind of winter road for a while. Believe you me, it was pretty rough; a couple of times I went in what normally would have been pretty good time for a winter road.

In a normal year, you are dealing with a situation where people are travelling in light vehicles prior to Christmas. It is important, particularly in the communities, to be able to get into Thompson, for example, for the ability to shop and whatnot. They are doing it anyway. It is not a question of safety strictly. It is often fairly safe that time of the year because of the thickness of the ice. The real question becomes one of maintenance. The department has moved, for example, in the case of Pikwitonei, to involve a local contractor, John Thorne, who has often done it on his own initiative. As a local resident, he knows the value of that, but I would certainly urge, as a matter of fact, ask for an update if there has been any consideration for that.

Essentially what happens is, for a very limited amount of additional maintenance built into the contract, you can extend the road season, I would suggest, in most cases, by certainly a week or two on either end. Not this year, I fully admit that. It was pretty mushy. But, in the average year, you would be able to extend the road, get people in before--quite frankly, it is before Christmas that people are concerned about.

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I realize there are a lot of questions here, and I am more than happy to accept written responses in terms of any detail. I will certainly welcome any preliminary comments from the minister.

Mr. Findlay: Yes, I count one, two, three, four, five, six, seven about eight different issues there. They will all take a fair bit of response, so I will commit to the member we will respond in written form and some of them we have already talked about, but we will give the member the update. I think some of them we have already responded in letter to the member in the past, I think, particularly York Landing, I think we have responded, if I am not mistaken, in the past.

Mr. Ashton: York Landing-Split Lake, not York Landing-Ilford.

Mr. Findlay: Okay. We will respond but I am going to tell you, when you ask for extension of the season of winter road use, it is dicey. We have to take the input from the staff, the professionals, the people who know about the thickness of the ice and the probability of somebody going through. I would hate to ever be in a situation where we extended a season and then some accident did happen. We all full well know that people do use them before they are open and after they are closed, and so it is a high risk there.

As I said earlier to the member for Flin Flon, we are very amazed that there have not been accidents or incidents because of that. But weather conditions, the member recognizes, this past winter were far too mild for a good winter road season, far too mild, and I do not know whether all communities got all their bulk products in that they wanted to get in. I do not know if they made it or not. I kind of wonder how they could have because the season was so short.

We will respond in writing on the whole series of questions raised, and thank the member for his requests, but the price tag on it in total may be a little hefty, but anyway we will respond.

Mr. Ashton: I realize this. It is a matter of priorities. There are always limited budgets, but what I particularly tried to reference is some of the feedback which I gave, for example, the northern meeting that took place. You know, I think a lot of times people in the communities are very reasonable in terms of recognizing that factor, for example, I mentioned 280. Chief Garson has mentioned the width of the road being a factor, and I think everybody would like to have a paved road but everybody understands that it takes a lot of money and it takes a lot of time.

I think 391 is a bit different. I think it needs to be hard-surfaced. It is an older road. It is a fire exit as we are finding now. This is the best time of year to raise this because of what has happened. I mention also in terms of the Ilford-York Landing connection because that would be substantially cheaper to construct and the plans are already there. This project was approved in 1977. It was cancelled by an incoming government, and, to be fair, it was a project that people lost some interest in but there is revived interest in it given the York Factory factor.

I mentioned even the case of 373 as well, the suggestion out of the community of Wabowden, because I think if you get in and talk to people in the communities they often can come up with ideas. Some of them may not work. They may be impossible to fill, but in a lot of cases they can come up with ideas on the cost side as well. I recognize there is a limited budget. We can argue about priorities for the North and what not and we will continue that political argument over time, but I think if you talk to people in the communities, they will come up with suggestions that are a lot cheaper than--I do not mean this as being critical to the department, but I think sometimes it is not recognized what people are really asking for is dealing with the immediate problems rather than everybody wanting a paved road.

Mr. Findlay: I would just caution that you can go in and build a low-cost option now, but five or 10 years later then the request is, why did we not get one equal to Mr. X over there and then you are into the upgrade costs. So the department is caught betwixt and between. Do we try to respond to what the future expectation is, or do we just build the low-cost version that gets them between here and there for today? I think some of the roads up there were built with the low-cost option and we are paying the price today, trying to get them up to a standard that people expect today.

Mr. Jennissen: I think I would like to pass this section.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(f) Winter Roads $2,575.000--pass.

2.(g)(1).

Mr. Jennissen: Just one question actually, with regard to the footnote on page 55: This amount recovered from municipalities, cities, towns, local government districts, LGDs, government agencies and private citizens. I would like some clarification on that. First of all, the amount and the nature of work that would be done.

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Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, $1.44 million is collected back by us from, as you see there, municipalities, cities, towns, local government districts, government agencies and private citizens, but it shows up in our appropriation as an expenditure in Highways, but the recoverable portion goes directly to general revenue.

So it is an expense on our books, but general revenue receives $1.4 million on the revenue side. I might say that is not fair, but that is just the way the books work.

Mr. Jennissen: The question that I actually had was, how much is from private citizens, because I was not sure what was involved here? Like if they want their front yards fixed, is this what this is all about?

Mr. Findlay: Out of the overall $1.44 million figure, I have a number of categories here, but private citizens is virtually zero. But I will give you some idea of where we are getting it from.

Remote communities, $800,000; MPIC $100,000; MTS $10,000; Manitoba Hydro $120,000; federal government, $10,000; other provinces, $70,000; Indian bands, remote areas, $30,000. So it is a wide spectrum, but private citizens, it does not appear that there are any involved. Another category is gas utility, sewer and water contractors, $300,000.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(g) Other Jurisdictions (1) Gross Expenditures $2,440,000--pass; (2) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($1,000,000)--pass.

Item 2.(h) Planning and Design (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Jennissen: I just have one question on 15.2(h)(1). Production of Manitoba's official highway map, I was wondering about the number of maps we produce and the cost.

Mr. Findlay: Expenditure of $80,000; 250,000 maps printed. I hope every one means a tourist.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(h) Planning and Design (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,746,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $487,400--pass.

Item 2.(j) Northern Airports and Ferries (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,088,300.

Mr. Jennissen: This is the section on northern airports and ferries?

I guess the question I have is why--well, I know why. It states that these positions were lost due to automated weather stations, but under professional and technical salaries and employee benefits, it is down from 89.12 to 71.12. That is quite a number of positions, and I wonder if the minister could speak about that a little bit.

I am concerned especially because I know that some of the accidents in the past, such as the Kenora accident, might have been partially due to the fact that some of that automated weather stuff was not working properly. First of all, I guess, losing the jobs, I would like you to comment on that.

Mr. Findlay: The member has identified the reduction from 89 to 71 staff people, a reduction of 17 positions. The activities of those 17 people were associated with giving atmospheric and environmental information to AES, a branch of the federal government Atmospheric Environment Services, and AES, that contract came to an end and they automated the services, put the automatic equipment in. Therefore, the 17 people that we had in our employ were no longer needed to serve the AES contract, because AES had put in the automated equipment.

Mr. Jennissen: They were effectively laid off then?

Mr. Findlay: Yes, they were all laid off. Of the 17, eight accepted severance pay, four resigned, three are still on the redeployment list, one has been redeployed and one position was vacant. So 16 people were affected, one has been redeployed, four resigned and eight took severance pay.

Mr. Jennissen: There is one training position as well that was affected, right?

Mr. Findlay: Yes, that staff training position was in Beausejour.

Mr. Jennissen: Under Activity Identification, the second line, medical retrievals. Are we talking of medivac here?

Mr. Findlay: Yes, it is the medivac.

Mr. Jennissen: How many planes are involved with medivac?

Mr. Findlay: The actual airplanes involved are all budgeted under Government Services, but the fleet consists of two air ambulances and one air taxi, a Navaho, which is stationed out at Thompson. Plus, there are a number of the private planes or private companies that have air taxis that will move people back and forth for medical reasons, on call, of course, where our capability or the government's capability is overburdened.

Mr. Jennissen: Is that number down from, let us say, previous years? It seems to me that at one point there were some cuts in the medivac planes.

Mr. Findlay: The actual air transportation capacity for medical purposes, because of the involvement of the private sector, the actual capacity in the province has increased with the number of different companies having planes equipped to do the appropriate transfer of individuals back and forth between hospitals, but we are into Government Services here now. We just supply the air strips for their use.

Mr. Jennissen: The last statement under Activity Identification, administers the Manitoba Airport Assistance Program, is this some connection with the feds offloading on us?

Mr. Findlay: It is what is called the Southern Manitoba Airport Assistance Program. The grants are $1,200 to airports with a gravel strip and $2,400 for a paved strip. There are a number of airports that qualify and, in addition to that, Swan River has a higher allocation; Leaf Rapids and Swan River have higher special allocations than the rest of the airports. It looks like there is a total of 30 airports involved in that program who receive some operating assistance, marginal compared to their total costs.

Mr. Jennissen: Regarding that airport at Leaf Rapids, I am under the impression there are two phases to that. Lengthening the runway--there is an improvement section and a lengthening runway section. Is that correct? The question I have is, could that be done together? That is just something I heard via the grapevine. I do not know if that is correct or not.

Mr. Findlay: The member was asking about Lynn Lake? Leaf Rapids.

Just for the member's understanding and also for my education as we go along here, in the North there are 30 airports that are under provincial jurisdiction. Twenty-two of them are staffed and eight are not staffed. There are at least six airports that are federally operated in the North. Leaf Rapids that you are referring to has made a federal application for funding for the airport upgrade that you are talking about. It is a federal application of about a million dollars, I believe.

Mr. Jennissen: Is the province also doing an upgrade there at the same time?

Mr. Findlay: No.

Mr. Jennissen: Okay, so there are not two projects involved.

Mr. Findlay: I think the member is aware that of these federal airports, this is where the federal government is getting into reducing the deficit or the subsidy to the airport over the next five years.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, I know the federal government is reducing subsidies for northern airports such as Thompson, The Pas, Norway House, Flin Flon and Lynn Lake. Who is expected to pick up the slack? Is it going to be simply offloading back on the municipalities, on the towns?

Mr. Findlay: That will be the end result. Yes, I think Thompson is in some discussion with the federal government; for sure, Flin Flon. Churchill has been designated remote, so they are okay, Norway House and Churchill. Lynn Lake, we are still in some hopeful negotiation with the federal government that they will ultimately consider it to be remote; the initial answer was no. But we did meet with the federal deputy who gave us some hope that continue to advance your arguments and they might give further consideration to Lynn. Lynn is certainly enlisted. Hearing from the mayor, he does not feel there is any hope of it being able to be viable by running it as a community.

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Mr. Jennissen: No, I agree with Lynn Lake. Because it is a fairly small community now, there is no way they could upkeep an airport that size. It is a big airport. It was designed maybe 25 years or so ago for a much larger population.

Mr. Findlay: Then you look at The Pas, it is a massive airport. It was built for a totally different reason, but it is a very large airport and I do not know how that will eventually come out there.

Mr. Jennissen: One question I have. I will go back to Flin Flon again if you do not mind.

The cost for that will be about $300,000 a year and that community is already under stress with layoffs and so on. The tax base is shrinking. We cannot basically upkeep the water and sewage system the way we want it. Channing does not even have water and sewage. I just do not think that city should be expected to handle a $300,000 extra load, although they are negotiating, I realize. I just do not think they can do it without cutting corners.

Now, when I flew from Flin Flon to Winnipeg a couple of weeks ago, I noticed--this was on a weekend on a Sunday--there was no airport security. When I asked about it I was given the answer--

Mr. Findlay: At Flin Flon?

Mr. Jennissen: At Flin Flon. This had never happened before in all the years I had been there, 23 years, and the argument was, well, we cannot afford to hire security on weekends. But to me it seems counterproductive. Either you have security or you do not. I mean, if you are going to advertise that you do not have security on weekends--

Now I know when I got into this a little bit further and asked some more questions, apparently it was the airline that had decided that. It was not the town or the feds or anything. But I have some concern because if that is the direction we are going, at some point the safety of the public will be compromised, and I know there is no easy answer to it, either.

Mr. Findlay: There is no question that what you are seeing and experiencing there is being experienced right across the country. The federal government has taken and made some decisions to progress in this direction without any opportunity for much input from any direction--communities, commercial aircraft companies or the provincial governments. They say they have consulted, but they have been on a track that has been one way and that is just to get out.

I guess there is some money available for capital upgrade that different communities can apply for. I would not want to say how long that might still be there, but there is definitely going to be facing the operating costs. It will cause communities to be decreasing the costs. Just picking an example off the top of my head, if there is a fire truck in the community, I am sure the community will not be able to afford to also have one at the airport which may be the case now, so you will see that they will be trying to do with existing services which will not be quite as convenient as they were before. So these changes are going to happen.

Mr. Jennissen: Under Expected Results on page 58 of the yellow book: "Improved access for the physically disabled at provincial airports." That must be referring to the larger airports, not to the smaller, northern remote airports?

Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, in the airports that we are responsible for, a few years ago there was a joint federal-provincial contract to purchase wheelchairs for these airports. They are there. They are under the responsibility or jurisdiction of the airlines for the use of them at the airports. In any renovations that are done at airports, access for the handicapped is included in the renovation process.

Mr. Jennissen: I just have one last question in this section and it is just for clarification. The very last one under Expected Results on page 58: "Provision of an economical alternative to bridges and/or road networks in remote areas in the province." Is that simply stating an obvious fact that airports, air travel is an alternative? Is that all we are saying here, or is there something else here?

Mr. Findlay: Referring primarily to ferries.

Mr. Jennissen: Okay.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(j) Northern Airports and Ferries (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,088,300--pass; (j)(2) Other Expenditures $2,390,000--pass.

(k) Materials and Research (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,608,000.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, this deals with subappropriation 15.2.(k) Materials and Research. I was just wondering about inventory of gravel and rock sources because I have been talking with some geologists and they felt that maybe we had not done enough, I guess it is called exploration or prospecting or whatever. The question I have is, do we have enough gravel on hand to meet anticipated demands for the next few years?

Mr. Findlay: Right across the province?

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, right across the province.

Mr. Findlay: Well, I think the member would realize that different regions of the province have different kinds of inventories for the present and the future. Some are well endowed, other regions, there is a fairly significant truck haul to get it from where it is to where you need it. But the department does continue to work to identify new deposits. It would be fair to say that the private sector, because they are also searching for deposits, may find deposits in areas that might be useful for us.

We use resources or aggregate from Crown land sources, some of which may be under our jurisdiction, some, maybe, have been staked by the private sector. As well, we will use from private sector pits in locations where that is the most economical way to source the aggregate for a particular project.

Mr. Jennissen: But we do not specifically have a program or group of people earmarked to find new deposits of gravel.

Mr. Findlay: One individual's responsibility is to be sure the inventory is adequate province-wide but, within the regions, staff are in the process of trying to identify additional pockets that would be useful in the future.

Mr. Jennissen: I have one last question, and that is on the Gravel Pit Rehabilitation Program. I am not familiar with it. Just say a few words about it, please.

* (1750)

Mr. Findlay: I can only comment in a general sense. The province has what is called a Mining Reserve Fund, where aggregate, as it is mined, a tariff is paid towards this fund for the purpose of restoration and rehabilitation. We give grants regularly to municipalities, by and large, who are involved in restoration of an old pit, and there has been a lot of uptake. It has been a very successful program.

It has been going on for the last three or four years, proactively, I guess, maybe because there is more environmental concern nowadays, and old pits have been identified as a blight on the landscape, so municipalities, particularly, have been utilizing this mineral reserve fund to source funds to do some rehabilitation on old gravel pits.

If the member wants to see one that was done very successfully, it is up in Birds Hill. It is called Silver Springs. Anyway, it is a big, old gravel pit. All the gravel is now somewhere in Winnipeg over the last 80 years. It is a big, old pit. It has a spring in the bottom with fish, and trees are planted, and there are houses built all around it. It is actually quite an attractive location now, but it was quite a large pit of, I would say, 10 times the size of this building, and it served the city of Winnipeg well over the years.

It is one that I am aware of that has quite successfully been rehabilitated to a valuable asset for the community.

Mr. Jennissen: Yes, in fact, just out of The Pas, I notice there are a bunch of pits--well, a bunch, there are two or three on one side and three or four on the other side--and I presume that once upon a time, they were gravel pits, and they are all nice fishing holes now, I guess. People stop and they catch--I presume they are stocked little pits. They probably catch rainbow trout there, so, yes, it is quite nice.

I have no more questions on this.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(k) Materials and Research (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,608,000--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $501,600--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations (1,009,200)--pass.

2.(m) Traffic Engineering (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $793,700.

Mr. Jennissen: Under Estimates of Expenditure for 1995-96, I notice that the salary years are the same for both this year and last year--no, they are not the same. Sorry, the salary year numbers are the same, but the actual salaries have gone up a fair amount, from $459,000 to $494,000, and I am just wondering, we are still talking 11 people here, I presume, and it seems quite a high increase.

I am just wondering if the minister could comment on that.

Mr. Findlay: The difference of $35,000 for the 11 employees is identified as merit increases.

Mr. Jennissen: No more questions in this section.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(m) Traffic Engineering (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $793,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $207,200--pass.

2.(n) Policy, Planning and Development (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Jennissen: This is under Policy, Planning and Development? I think we have a few questions here. And I think I have picked just the right time to do this, did I not? Strategic planning at its finest.

Under Activity Identification, the second portion about the development of Winnipeg's potential as a multimodal distribution centre, I know the minister has talked about this before, and I was very, very interested with regard to the Northern Hemisphere Distribution Alliance and a whole series of initiatives, which include the WINNPORT and multimodal cargo hub implementation programs and so on. I am just wondering, I know we do not have much time, but maybe just say a few words about it, an update.

Mr. Findlay: I will just comment in generalities, I guess. I think you have to give credit to Hubert Kleysen and Lynn Bishop and Winnipeg 2000 for sort of sitting around and coming up with this initiative. Certainly the city of Winnipeg and the province and the federal government are all very supportive of the initiative they are attempting to bring together. An initial preliminary assessment was done and then it was decided that there was some merit here.

We have about $600,000 involved in a study right now, a major study to determine if there are customers or users that would be able to bring planes in here with product for distribution. They are very optimistic. I was at a public meeting about just before the election, I believe it was, where a lot of business people were there and talking about progress to date and what the opportunities were, a lot of enthusiasm. Certainly there is an area west of the existing airport that has been identified as a probable location if warehousing was to happen.

When I was at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, we had a transportation section, and there were a lot of people there from South America, Europe and the U.S. When I raised the issue about what is the significance of Winnipeg possibly becoming a major global location for a distribution of goods from Europe or from Asia, instantly, when I mentioned it, everybody knew about it and the word had travelled.

We are located in the right location relative to particularly Korea and Amsterdam in terms of distance. We are at a distance where up to one planeload of fuel can get here. If you look at Los Angeles, we are closer to Seoul, Korea, than Los Angeles is over the polar route.

We have a large population within a 30-hour truck drive from here, obviously south, to distribute goods in North America. We are certainly closer to Chicago than Los Angeles. So people say Los Angeles should be the natural gateway coming in. We economically can compete very well. We have a 24-hour airport and we have a lot going for us.

I look forward to the business plan that is presently being done and the ability of the private sector to find opportunities. It has great job potential here.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 6 p.m., this section of the Committee of Supply will recess until 10 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday).