Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Sveinson): Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. Does the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation have an opening statement?
Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would like to welcome the new critic to the process on a very warm evening. When you get back to Flin Flon, it will be a little cooler, likely one way or the other.
I would like to make a few comments, Mr. Chairman. The 1995-96 Expenditure Estimates of $225,130,000 represents a decrease of 1.9 percent from the '94-95 approved level of $229,548,000. The highway construction program for '95-96 represents an increase of $3 million in the provincial base to a level of $97 million, up from $94 million last year. Unfortunately, the three-year federal-provincial SHP program is winding down. The SHP program, the last two years, has been $15 million, and there is about $6 million left to spend. So that means, from the federal end, their commitment to capital expenditures on highways in the province is down $9 million. We are up $3 million, so that leaves the net result of the capital budget being down $6 million for the year previous. That is still leaving $103 million.
The staff complement has reduced by 38 staff years, in other words, 38 SYs '94-95 level; 41 SYs were eliminated, and three SYs were added for the National Safety Code carrier profile computer program and facilities audit. Of the 41 SYs eliminated, 18 staff were affected. Two staff accepted alternate positions; 13 accepted permanent layoff, and three have been placed on the government re-employment list.
The department is committed to maintaining and enhancing Manitoba's competitiveness with a safe, reliable and environmentally responsible transportation system. Accordingly, we will continue to promote the development and maintenance of a co-ordinated, multimodal freight and passenger transportation system, a system which will ensure the safe and efficient movement of people and goods to and from communities in Manitoba and Canada and internationally.
The department supports the continued existence of two competitive and viable national railroads, which will provide cost-effective services to our shippers. The department will continue to develop an attractive economic environment in which both railroads will maintain and expand their presence in the province. Our minimum goal is keeping Manitoba's historical share of national railroad activity in the province at its continuous level.
I think another point I might make is that 40 years ago the railroad handled or hauled 70 percent of the bulk commodities in western Canada. Today they haul 28 percent. So there has been a dramatic shift from rail to road in terms of bulk hauling in western Canada.
The department will introduce amendments to The Highway Traffic Act which will eliminate the province's economic regulation of intraprovincial trucking. Manitoba has engaged in this form of regulation since the 1930s. However, economic regulation no longer serves the interests of carriers, shippers or the communities of rural Manitoba. The proposed amendments will partially deregulate the industry on January 1, '96, and totally deregulate the industry on January 1, '98.
Right now, at this point, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and B.C. are the only provinces that carry out any form of intraprovincial regulation, and all provinces signed the free trade agreement between provinces, plus the feed barriers must be down by January 1 of '98.
Amendments will ensure that Manitoba complies with the Canadian Agreement on Internal Trade. This agreement requires complete deregulation of intraprovincial trucking in each jurisdiction by January 1, '98. Other jurisdictions had pressed for an earlier date of deregulation. However, the department negotiated the longer transition period. The longer transition will allow deregulation to be phased in to provide an orderly transition to a trucking industry which is market driven and more responsive to the needs of shippers and communities.
The department, along with Manitoba Industry of Trade and Tourism, will implement Manitoba Transportation Initiative, or MTI. This initiative will support developments in the transportation industry including services, equipment and related infrastructure. MTI will co-ordinate transportation-related research, policy development and economic development activities.
The department will continue to demand a federal commitment to the future of northern rail infrastructure, the Port of Churchill and the Hudson Bay route to facilitate northern development, bilateral trade with Russia and activities that increase tourism and to meet the essential travel needs of northern Manitoba.
The department will continue to pursue a federal commitment to a National Highways Program or, in the absence of a federal national program, a bilateral funding arrangement with the federal government. The department will continue its commitment to maintaining and improving its proportion of the national highway system to facilitate the safe and efficient movement of people and goods.
The department will work with the agrifood sector in meeting the challenges of the revolutionary changes in grain transportation. These challenges were precipitated by the elimination of the Crow benefit rail subsidy and the change in the Canadian Wheat Board's method of paying its cost to shipping grain down the lower St. Lawrence.
There is no question that dramatic change is happening throughout western Canada, particularly in Manitoba, since we are furthest from saltwater. Certainly, grain producers will produce different commodities, and there will be higher-value commodities in future. This will cause a dramatic change in what elevators handle, what railways will haul and what direction they will haul.
I would recommend to all people in the industry that these adaptations to change will be farmer driven and will happen in a very short period of time. It will require a lot of alterations by all the players, and response to these changes will be causing dramatic considerations.
Manitoba must adapt to economic change and maintain the high quality and efficiency in its transportation infrastructure. Adaptation to change is as necessary in the public sector as it is in the private sector.
To renew and refocus the process of change, Manitoba Highways and Transportation has initiated a customer-focused, strategic planning process. Through this process, the department will review its operation to determine which activities should be undertaken, whether they should be provided by the government or the private sector, whether sufficient funds are available, and to ensure that they are being delivered in the most cost-efficient manner.
The department has made a commitment to service excellence. To deliver on this commitment, we are taking steps to build a service-oriented culture throughout our organization. We view service as a managed process and are developing strategic objectives and plans. We are establishing concrete standards based on customer expectations and will be measuring ourselves against these standards.
National Transportation Week was held the first week of June, the fourth to the 10th, with the theme, Careers in Transportation. Education and retraining will allow Canadians to develop an expertise in transportation. From the expertise will come a more efficient and effective transportation system and will improve Canada's overall industrial competitiveness.
Canada's transportation companies and systems are undergoing continuous improvement to meet the challenges of the global economy. The computer has become a basic tool of the transportation business. For example, computers track the location of trucks, trains, airplanes and ships. The ability of employees to use this important tool in their everyday work is essential.
As educational requirements in transportation are increasing, they are being met by educational institutions, specialized training schools and on-the-job training. Restructuring the transportation industry, brought about by the federal transportation policy reform, shifting trading patterns, global economic restructuring, increased competition and many other factors, can mean more job opportunities in some modes and less in others.
The following describes the current employment situation in the truck, rail and air modes in Manitoba.
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In the trucking industry in '92, Manitoba for-hire motor carriers generated revenues of over $590 million, provided direct employment for approximately 6,000 Manitobans and indirectly created employment for a further 2,400 Manitobans.
Manitoba continues to maintain its position as a major trucking centre, with six of the largest interprovincial common carriers headquartered in the province.
The industry has identified a serious shortage of well-trained long-haul drivers who are also safety and customer oriented. To help eliminate this shortage, Manitoba recently announced the expansion of the Transport Driver Training initiative. Two hundred drivers will be trained annually, compared to the previous 70 students per year. This initiative is cost shared with the federal government and the trucking industry.
Manitoba has participated in Transport Driver Training initiatives with the industry and Ottawa since 1988. Of the 453 participants trained since 1989, 94 percent of those completing the program were hired by the Manitoba trucking firms.
The rail industry has been steadily rationalizing its operation and reducing its workforce to improve competitiveness. The combined national CN and CP workforce has shrunk by 24 percent from '89 to '94. During the past decade, national employment in the railways industry dropped nearly 50 percent. Railway wages rose by 65 percent from '83 to '93, compared to 46 percent in all other sectors in the same time period.
Although Manitoba was hit by job losses in the rail industry, the province has nonetheless retained its 12.8 percent of the national employment network, with 6,700 directly employed with CN, CP and VIA. A major restructuring of VIA Rail in October '94 resulted in an 11 percent national reduction in employment, with 25 positions lost in Manitoba. VIA employment tends to rise slightly in the summer months, due to tourism.
In the air industry, Winnipeg is Canada's only centrally located 24-hour airport and offers a broad range of air passenger and cargo services, including international carriers, commuter airlines, jet freight carriers, fixed base operators and various charter operations. Annually, the airport serves in excess of 2.2 million passengers, over 14,000 aircraft movements, and handles over 130,000 tonnes of cargo annually. Direct airport-related employment is 5,800.
Despite workforce cuts nationally in the air industry in the last five years, Manitoba is optimistic that the recent open skies agreement will allow the province greater potential to attract both U.S. and Canadian air carriers, thus enhancing regional economic development strategies and increasing employment opportunities. For example, American Airlines recently initiated a three-flight-per-day schedule between Winnipeg and Chicago.
In the broadest picture, if we look at what the federal government has done in recent months with this airport policy and devolution of many airports, the fact is, there has been no decision on an active highway program at this time. They just announced fairly significant policy changes. There is no question, the federal government is going reduce expenditure in transportation rather aggressively. It is going to put a lot of onus on communities, particularly those communities with airports.
The change is going to be difficult; adaptation to ways of doing business is going to be required. Certainly it is very obvious that the province cannot accept the federal offloads. I would like to remind the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), one of the really sore points I have with the federal government is the fact that there is a federal fuel tax. They collect $5.5 billion across this country and return virtually none of it to the road infrastructure network, leaving it to the provinces to build roads. They collect the revenue. They have used the principle of user pay. Well, the user is paying but not getting any benefit back in terms of a road tax that is going toward road infrastructure improvements.
Certainly every province faces the challenges dealing with the federal initiatives. Our primary objective is to be sure that we do what we can with scarce dollars and try to maximize the safety and efficiency of our own rural transportation network.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Highways and Transportation for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member from Flin Flon, have any opening comments?
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): First of all I want to thank the minister for his opening statement, and as a new MLA, I am certainly willing to learn a lot about this department. I do not pretend to have any great degree of expertise, but I am certainly not afraid to learn. Perhaps also, in the process, I can elaborate a somewhat different perspective.
First of all, I think that Manitoba is centrally located and is in a good position in terms of serving markets in North America. It is perched right on top of North America. We do know that the structures in transportation are extremely important and have been so historically from the fur trade on. I guess the thing that concerns me most though is the vision that stitched this country together with Sir John A. MacDonald saying transportation and rail lines were important to connect this country, that vision seems to be diminishing a fair bit and perhaps has died altogether.
I think what we had originally intended to do was to create a country where all regions had a fair shot at the good life, and that now seems to be almost becoming a user-pay philosophy. That vision of where the hinterland, if you like, or the more disadvantaged regions could share [inaudible], that seems to have gone astray somehow, and I really lament that.
I guess what we are talking about possibly now is a lack of vision. I certainly see it with the Crow rate being tossed aside. Farmers are going to have great difficulties adjusting. Rail line abandonment, I know this is basically federal, but nonetheless the effects are here permanently.
An Honourable Member: It impacts on us.
Mr. Jennissen: Pardon me?
An Honourable Member: It impacts on us.
Mr. Jennissen: It impacts on us, right. The job losses are real. In the railroad, we have lost thousands of jobs in the last few years. Up North, and I am a northern member, so I am biased. I will say that right from the start, toward that northern perspective. We have seen VIA Rail cuts. We have seen the isolated communities with services that have either been cut or have been trimmed, shall we say.
I am worried about the airports, especially the airports that the federal government once saw fit to consider as part of a national philosophy. It ties us all together; that stitches us all across this country. Those airports are sort of tossed aside, and either a municipality or a province, whatever, has to take charge. They are downloading, and somebody has to take over. Either that or close them. I lament that because the vision that drove that first line across this country and drove the Churchill line up north, that vision seems to have gone. That concerns me.
Just one example, up north, the food meal program that was very useful for people, let us say, in Brochet, because they did not pay the full rate of transportation via airplane. That has been tampered with to a degree that the northerners tell me, for two kilograms of powdered milk, they pay up to $40 freight charges. It is difficult enough to live in the North without putting all those hindrances in the way. That concerns me. It concerns me because, in the long run, what is going to happen with the user-pay philosophy approach that we are using or that we seem to be heading towards--I am not blaming anyone particularly, but it seems to be developing--we are going to have a metropolis mentality and a hinterland out there, and the people that we have traditionally said were fellow Canadians and had equal access to the good life are now going to be shoved back as second class citizens. I particularly consider northerners and aboriginal people in this category.
That is not the Canada I knew, and that is not the Canada I came to this country for either in 1952, although I must admit I was fairly young. As an immigrant, we came to a different Canada. That is changing rapidly. I am not for one minute buying that this is a better Canada. It might be more efficient. It certainly ties in with all the rhetoric about globalization, but it seems to me, we are going to eventually end up with a two-tiered system. That scares me, I guess, because I thought we were all equal citizens. Transportation is a key element in this; it should be one of those elements that is a great leveller, and I do not know if that is the direction we are going. I guess I have great fears that it is not the direction we are going and I am somewhat unhappy with that.
I see somewhat of a contradiction as well. On the one hand we say we are pushing these great initiatives such as, to give an example, the spaceport at Churchill, Akjuit, even the Arctic Bridge Agreement potential. We talk about that but meanwhile the railroad is being cut or possibly cut or dying. I mean those are the links we need to build that next leap into the future. I guess I am saying I am moderately optimistic on several levels but I am deeply concerned about other levels where we are heading, and I think I will leave it at that.
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Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the critic for the official opposition for those remarks. Under the Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceed to the consideration of the next line. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present.
Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, I have joining me right at this point Andy Horosko, the deputy minister to my left; next Paul Rochon, Executive Director of Administrative Services; Doug Struthers, Assistant Deputy Minister of Construction and Maintenance; and John Hosang, Assistant Deputy Minister of Engineering Technical Services--Andrew, Paul, Doug and John.
An Honourable Member: Sounds like the Apostles.
Mr. Findlay: Need I say any more?
An Honourable Member: They walk on water, eh?
Mr. Findlay: Yes, they do. Right after it is frozen or dried up.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $433,200 on page 86 of the Estimates book, the blue Estimates book, for our new member, and on page 21 of the yellow supplement book.
Mr. Jennissen: I wonder, could I ask a few questions of the role and mission statement. I am kind of new to the process and I am not sure if that is traditionally done, but just some observations, some questions. Reading the role and mission statement it looks nice and compact and tight, but just a few concerns crossed my mind and maybe I should not be questioning these, these are probably put together by real experts, but just if you will humour me.
Just what does it mean to say "environmentally compatible transportation systems?" I guess that is a nice phrase, but I am not entirely sure what that encompasses.
Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, environmentally compatible I guess in the broad sense means we do not want to build a road that is going to negatively impact on the environment in the broad sense, both in terms of the design of the road, in terms of the engineering of it, in terms of the construction of it. We have been known to fill in sloughs but also known to build sloughs as we go along, the overall idea not to negatively impact the environment, wildlife in any preventable way.
Mr. Jennissen: In other words, to minimize the bad impact.
Mr. Findlay: Yes, to minimize. I would not say we would eliminate, but we would minimize.
Mr. Jennissen: The other phrase was "sustainable economic growth and social well-being of the province." I guess the concern I have here is--not really a concern, it is just an observation. There are regions of the province where economic growth may not always be possible, where more disadvantaged people live, and I guess I am again pointing the finger a little bit to the North, and even in areas where, let us say, maybe a mine once operated but now the community still exists but the mining sector has declined. It is no longer economically sustainable in the broad sense, but I would not want this to imply that we now desert the place and pull out. I presume that is not what is meant.
Mr. Findlay: When you are looking at transportation, economic growth and transportation go hand in hand, and the member talked earlier about John A. MacDonald building the railroad and certainly that brought economic opportunities to western Canada. Following that, the road infrastructure has been built over the last number of decades which has opened up communities, opened up opportunities. Our roads are better now than they were 20 years ago in terms of the kind of weights they can haul and volumes they can haul.
Certainly the air industry has opened up an awful lot of this country. There are many, many airports in the North. Without those airports those communities would not have anywhere near the access to the outside world, nor would the outside world have access to this community, whether it is for tourism, whether it is for mining or whatever.
The member talks about mines; certainly, there are some that have closed. There are also some that are being developed. There are some that have been closed that are being looked at to reopen.
There is no question that that transportation infrastructure in the north is quite expensive. The cost of getting back and forth, whether on road or in air or on rail, is an expensive process. I think, by and large, every community in Manitoba, north, south, central, or any place in between, transportation has been a major thread in allowing those opportunities to have the opportunity to develop. We are so export-oriented as a province in so many aspects, whether it is mining or agriculture or manufacturing, we have to move products, particularly out to markets. So that is why transportation infrastructure is so important in this vastly scattered population like we really have in the province, although we have 60 percent of them in one location, we have the other 40 percent spread over a very large area, and all out there doing their thing.
The demands, as you will see as we go through, I am sure, in the various comments I will make, the demands on us are incredible. The demands on the taxpayers' pocket for highways, airports, whatever, are rather phenomenal and will not let up for any foreseeable period of time. And that is why, when I said earlier, the comment on the federal government and the road tax they collect, the fact that they do not invest in this or any other province is a disparity that we should not allow to continue to happen.
Mr. Jennissen: One last question on that with regard to the social well-being of the province, I do not know if a province has any social well-being as people can, though, and I wonder how that would ever be measured? You are sort of setting a goal here, it is a broad mission statement. What economic indicators would you use? I mean you could obviously use housing starts or job creation, but you would not want to use child poverty, that would not be a good economic--like, I mean, so how do you know when you have achieved what you say you are going to achieve?
Mr. Findlay: I think that from our standpoint, I do not say we could measure it. All we attempt to do in terms of providing transportation is to allow people in communities to move out, to go places outside, and people from the outside to go in. That allows a social interaction which, you know, leads to a certain quality of life, as opposed to being isolated, which you would be in many, many parts of the province without some form of transportation infrastructure. It really, fundamentally, allows movement, flexibility in what people do with their lives, and whether it is entertainment or tourism or economic opportunities, it is the transportation infrastructure that improves their social well-being.
Mr. Jennissen: Schedule 1, Statutory Responsibilities of the Minister of Highways and Transportation, has a list of acts, and I noticed two years ago, G-70, The Government Air Services Act was listed. It is not listed now, and I presume that shifted somewhere else, but we still deal with northern airports. I am just wondering why, is that no longer applicable?
Mr. Findlay: The administrative responsibilities for that act are now in Government Services.
Mr. Jennissen: Schedule 2, which is the organizational chart of the Department of Highways and Transportation, sort of a flow chart, and very interesting, I compared it the '93-94 and the '94-95, and all I did was count boxes. You know, my math is not the greatest, guys. The boxes I counted in 1993-94 where 40, and there were 35 last year, and 33 this year. That would include major headings as well as the subheadings. So there seems to be a fair bit of downsizing or rightsizing or cutbacks, depending on what you call it. Would you care to make a comment on that, Mr. Minister?
Mr. Findlay: Well certainly there have been some adjustments. We will call it rightsizing for lack of a better word, essentially in Engineering and Technical Services. Fundamental services at the delivery end are still happening the same as previous times. It would probably be fair to say, more activity at the service delivery end and fewer people at the higher administrative ends.
Mr. Jennissen: I notice that under Motor Transport Board, the D. Norquay name is there as well as under Policy, Planning and Development. Is that a bit unusual, in the sense of having two jobs here?
Mr. Findlay: He does carry the two responsibilities.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Engineering and Technical Services last year it was listed as Northern Airports and Marine and now it is listed as Northern Airports and Ferries. Is that just a name change?
Mr. Findlay: Yes.
Mr. Jennissen: I have no further questions on that right now.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $433,200 on page 21 of the yellow Estimates book.
Mr. Jennissen: On page 20, actually, under Activity Identification, second line down: Provides leadership in the development and communication of the department's strategic plans ensuring consistency with government's policies and priorities.
I was reading last year's Hansard and there was a comment about strategic plan to be completed within the year and a half, also a comment about rewriting of The Highway Traffic Act. Just for my information, could I have an update on that?
Mr. Findlay: As I mentioned in my opening comments, the department is working on a strategic plan at this point. We will receive input from staff, receive input from the industry outside of the government. Certainly The Highway Traffic Act, the rewrite is ongoing. It is fair to say, at this time, probably behind the initially intended schedule. It is a very large act, it has a lot of elements to it and the process is being lead by Dan Coyle who has a very active stakeholder group outside of government with whom he is reviewing the act and looking at the proposed changes they will eventually bring forward in due course. It is a large rewrite.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Salaries and Employee Benefits the salary year one and the salary there, is that the deputy minister, I presume? Is that correct?
Mr. Findlay: Yes.
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Mr. Jennissen: Looking at the division branch like for Executive Support and Administrative Services, Financial Services, Personnel Services, and so on, I know they have all gone up in terms of the managers all getting more money, but they all seem to go down a little bit less, too, from 97.8 for Executive Support and 76.8 for Administrative Services, manager and 64.2 Financial. Is that sort of a pecking order that I am looking at or like if you loose, you end up at the bottom of that scale, Occupational Health and Safety? Or just by accident?
Mr. Findlay: Which numbers are you referring to?
Mr. Jennissen: This is page 14, Schedule 5. I am just slipping around a bit.
Mr. Findlay: Are you comparing last year's to this year's?
Mr. Jennissen: No, no, I am just taking a look at what the Executive Support, under Executive Support, what the manager gets in salary and under Administrative Service, what the manager gets, under Financial Services, and so on. There just seems to be sort of a step down each time but they are still managers. I guess that is just a question I had, whether there was some kind of pecking order.
Another way of putting it, is being in Occupational Health and Safety less important managing that than Administrative Services?
Mr. Findlay: A lot of this ranking is done by the civil service, and I do not think you would find it any different in any other department. It is sort of the step-by-step process of determining levels of authority, levels of salary and, obviously, if a person wants the highest salary he has to be the best person. It is the reasonable, similar civil service process to any other department.
Mr. Jennissen: And your own ministerial staff numbers and raises, could I get some information on that, and who they are?
Mr. Findlay: You wanted the five names? Okay. The five names, I will get the categories here: Rosemary Robinson, AYM--this is secretarial staff now--Katherine Hinther, AY3; Debbie Draward, AY3; Special Assistant Jeff MacDonald; Executive Assistant Monica Bazan.
Mr. Jennissen: Could we have the pay classification on these people as well?
Mr. Findlay: You want their actual salary?
Mr. Jennissen: Their classification. It would be nice to know their salary.
Mr. Findlay: Yes, the first one was AYM, Rosemary Robinson; the next two salaries, AY3, and the special assistant and executive assistant. Do you want anything more on that?
Mr. Jennissen: Can we get the salary figures on those.
Mr. Findlay: Okay: AYM, $37,000; AY3s, $30,600 and $30,800; special assistant $48,100; executive assistant $44,600.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $433,200--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $89,000--pass.
1.(c) Administrative Services (1) $433,800.
Mr. Jennissen: I take it we are on page 22, is that correct, of the yellow book?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Yes.
Mr. Jennissen: I go by colours here. Under Activity Identification I noticed last year there was one other category. I do not have that handy right now, but something about provides expertise in dealing with legislation. It was about the fourth one down, and it is not in this particular one. Is there any reason for that?
Mr. Findlay: As part of reorganization that was moved into the policy area.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Activity Identification the last one: provides for the administration of the Freedom of Information Act. Could the minister tell me the number of freedom of information inquiries there were and the types?
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Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chair, in '94-95 we received 19 applications for information under the FOI. Nine applications were granted. Four applications were denied, three applications were partly denied, for two applications the information did not exist, and one application was withdrawn.
Mr. Jennissen: Now could we have a breakdown what they were actually requesting?
Mr. Findlay: For confidentiality reasons I will not give you the names of the people involved.
The first one is request for information relating to the divestiture of the Dauphin Sign Shop, identifying terms of divestiture, identity of purchaser and amount paid.
The next one, request for a copy of a letter received by the Motor Vehicles Branch in respect to his driver's licence informing the Registrar of Motor Vehicles that he had received treatment at the St. Boniface Hospital for alcoholism.
The next request, for all fines pertaining to the construction of the Fairford water control structure of Highway 6 over the dam in 1960.
Request for access to documents that falsely state that he had an alcohol problem for many years.
Request for information of how much the department spent on direct mail in the fiscal year '92-93 and '93-94.
Request for access to a person's complete driver's licence file, particularly documents which led to the suspension of his licence.
(Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)
Request for access for what is stated in the medical records that requires me to have a medical each time I am requesting a driver's licence.
They vary, all over the place.
Request for access to the agreement between the government of Manitoba providing for the construction of that portion of Highway 6 between Gypsumville and Grand Rapids and the construction of the bridge across the Saskatchewan River at Grand Rapids.
Request for access to any record that caused D. Coyle to send out a letter stating we have received information which indicates your use of alcohol may be such as to impair your ability to operate a motor vehicle.
Request for access to any record which resulted in D. Coyle to send out a letter stating we have received information which indicates your medical condition may be such as to impair your ability to operate a motor vehicle.
Request for access to an engineering report by Wardrop Engineering with regard to Winnipeg River Bridge on P.R. 313 completed in 1993.
Request for access to a copy of my medical records that prompted the Registrar of Motor Vehicles to request me to provide them with my medical records with visual report with no apparent reason.
Request for access to a driver's record for a certain person which would be part of MPIC's investigation.
Request for access to the drivers and medical records of the other party making allegations to do with MPIC's investigation of a particular incident.
That is the nature of the kinds of requests to do with the construction, to do with driver's licence. There is some more but that gives a general flavour.
Mr. Jennissen: Are there any vacancies on this particular staff? Any vacancies? Any jobs left open? These are all filled?
Mr. Findlay: Which jobs?
Mr. Jennissen: Well, particularly here.
Mr. Findlay: No vacancies.
Mr. Jennissen: Those are all the questions I have at this time.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 1.(c) Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $433,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $149,600--pass.
1.(d) Financial Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $661,900.
Mr. Jennissen: Under professional and technical, one job, one position eliminated due to regionalization, I guess. I do not understand that, I do not understand regionalization that well.
Mr. Findlay: The process of regionalization was essentially a process of decentralization within the department for more and more staff and activities, particularly financial accounting activities removed from Winnipeg to the regions or, in other words, out in the country where the actual action is happening. So it is effectively a decentralization process of the department.
Mr. Jennissen: Under the Activity Identification, the second one: prepares the department's quarterly forecasts and expenditures. Are these forecasts just sort of for internal use?
Mr. Findlay: The reports are for the deputy minister, for Treasury Board, basically internal use.
Mr. Jennissen: There are no vacancies under Financial Services?
Mr. Findlay: Two vacancies.
Mr. Jennissen: And they will be filled?
Mr. Findlay: One has gone through a competition and the applicant has been advised or is in the process of being advised and the other will be posted in due course.
Mr. Jennissen: How long have they been vacant then?
Mr. Findlay: Both positions have been vacant for about a year. One was because of VSIP, Voluntary Separation Incentive Program where for financial management we are required to keep it open for a year. The other one is just vacant because the person, I presume, retired, resigned or whatever, but it has been open for a year.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I am going to ask the honourable member for Flin Flon to wait until I identify you. Then the mike will be switched on so your comments are recorded or your questions are recorded. If you want your questions recorded, please wait for the mike to be turned on.
Mr. Jennissen: I guess the question I had was about whether that one was going to be filled.
Mr. Findlay: Yes, the position will be eventually filled.
Mr. Jennissen: I think I have no further questions at this time.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): 1.(d) Financial Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $661,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $177,800--pass.
(e) Personnel Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $849,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $214,900--pass.
(f) Computer Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.
Mr. Jennissen: I am sorry, I must have just missed that on 15.1(e). Can we go back to 15.1(e)? I guess the question I have under Activity Identification for 15.1(e) is "coordinates affirmative action policies and programs within the Department". Could we have a breakdown on that with regard to women, First Nations people, disabled, visible minorities?
Mr. Findlay: I will give the member the four categories as of March '94. It is the most recent numbers we have. I will give the total number of employees and the percent that those employees make up of the total employment base. Under female, 434 employees, 22.1 percent; under aboriginal, 108 employees, 5.5 percent; under disabled, 24, 1.2 percent; under visible minority, 22, 1.1 percent.
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Mr. Jennissen: I have the '93 figures as well and there was quite a marked increase from year to year. I was just wondering if that trend was still holding or whether that was going down. We do not have that type of information right now, but could the minister provide that when we do have that breakdown?
Mr. Findlay: For one year later.
Mr. Jennissen: Yes, for one year later, when it becomes available.
The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I am sorry gentlemen, I am going to have to intervene again. The mikes are shut off and the recorder is shut off. Until you get your acts straightened around we will keep them shut off. Are you willing to co-operate?
Mr. Jennissen: My apology, Mr. Chairman. I keep thinking I am just in an ordinary discussion here. I keep forgetting there are all these strictures on my verbal ability here.
I was asking the minister if he could provide me with the information, or an update for 1995-96 when it is available, with regard to not just visible minorities but disabled, First Nation, and women, the affirmative action program. I think they were going in the right direction. The percentages seemed to be increasing quite a bit and I just hope that trend continues.
Mr. Findlay: Yes, I will provide it to the member when we get it.
Mr. Jennissen: Salaries and Employee Benefits, the second line Professional/Technical, just for my information again, what does that mean? What do those people do?
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr. Findlay: These are the people who conduct the interviews, do the hiring.
Mr. Jennissen: Are there any vacancies in this particular section?
Mr. Findlay: No.
Mr. Jennissen: What is the total number of people working for Highways?
Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairperson, 2,246-and-a-half.
Mr. Jennissen: I hope it is half a year and not half a person. Are those current numbers, like right up to date or as up to date as--
Mr. Findlay: Yes.
Mr. Jennissen: So that is a loss of 40 jobs from last year.
Mr. Findlay: Thirty-eight, as identified in my opening comments.
Mr. Jennissen: I have no more questions on this section.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1. Administration and Finance (f) Computer Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,458,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $582,700--pass.
1.(g) Occupational Health and Safety (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $169,600.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Activity Identification: Conducts worksite inspections and environmental monitoring. Could we have numbers and reports?
Mr. Findlay: We do not have those numbers or that information, but we will supply it to the member, hopefully at the next sitting.
Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I believe, we are on 1.(g), is that correct?
Mr. Findlay: Yes.
Mr. Reid: Last year I had the opportunity to ask questions with respect to the safety programs that the department had underway. In the program, the department provided information related to the WCB premiums, the number of accidents, workplace accidents that had taken place, how many people were on LTD, the types of injuries that the department was encountering, too, so we could have an idea of what programs the department was undertaking to try and alleviate any workplace accidents.
Can the minister update on the premiums, the number of injuries that we have had over the course of the last year, how many people are on LTD and the types of injuries that the department is encountering?
Mr. Findlay: I have some of the numbers that the member is looking for. I do not have the number of people on long-term disability, and, if you would like, we will follow up with that.
To go back to the number of, what is referred to as incidents, injuries of no medical attention or lost time, I will start with '91-92, 97; '92-93, 85; '93-94, 49; '94-95, 54.
The next category is injuries involving medical attention: '91-92, 92; '92-93, 103; '93-94, 44; '94-95, 51.
Injuries involving medical attention and lost time: '91-92, 113; '92-93, 64; '93-94, 55; '94-95, 66.
I can give the member also Workers Compensation Board costs. In other words, money paid out directly by the department for work-related injuries: '91-92, $567,000; '92-93, $298,000; '93-94, $296,000; '94-95, $260,000. So the WCB costs for the department has gone down each year.
Mr. Reid: By the minister's numbers that he has given, in comparison to last year's and prior years' figures, shows that there is an increase in the number of workplace injuries requiring medical attention from 44 in '93-94 to 51, I believe, this year, if I understood the minister's numbers correctly. We have a Workplace Safety and Health program within the department to try and prevent some of these accidents from taking place.
I know there is another section within the Estimates dealing with safety, but here is an area where it is showing--for awhile there, there was a pattern where the numbers of accidents requiring medical attention were increasing, and then last year they took a significant drop, now this year they are starting to creep back up again here. Can the minister give me some reason why the numbers are starting to creep back up?
Mr. Findlay: It is true that in the three categories I gave the member, the first three categories were where there were incidents where a doctor was required or incidents where time was lost. In every one of those categories the number went up the last year, but at the end, the WCB costs, the Workers Compensation Board costs, actually went down, from $296,000 to $260,000.
Although there are numbers there indicating events, the severity of them has obviously gone down. So one trend tends to counter the other trend. If you look at the dollar figure, the amount of lost time or severity of the injury is less. So the process of trying to make the workplace safer, in one sense appears to be working, although the first numbers would indicate the opposite.
Mr. Reid: I am not sure if the minister made reference to it, but can he indicate the types of injuries that the employees are encountering on the job, and is there a breakdown in the various categories by the numbers of injuries in those areas?
Mr. Findlay: I have here eight categories of nature of injury: pulled muscle or strain, the number of injuries is 36; fracture, 1. We are looking for the definition--the next category is called other, 22. Then I have got multiple, obviously multiple injuries, 10; cuts and abrasions, 22; foreign body--I would presume that is into your body, 14; torn ligaments, 9; bruises, 39; burns, 4.
I guess we will call other miscellaneous for lack of a better definition at the moment.
Mr. Reid: I take it, then, the workplace accidents that are classified under other are not as serious in nature, and that is why they are classified in there, because there is no other criteria to define them.
Mr. Findlay: That is what we interpret as the reason they are in that category.
Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell us the number of Workplace, Safety and Health audits that have been conducted by the department, and what were the findings of those audits, if any?
Mr. Findlay: The member is asking for number of times that WCB people do an audit in the department or at the internal? Okay, we do not have that information. We will try to get it for the member, but--
Mr. Reid: I believe last year we had the chance to discuss this issue about what steps the department was taking to prevent workplace accidents from occurring, and that, if I recall correctly, my understanding was that the department does do some preventative measures to prevent accidents from happening and that--maybe for lack of a better term, maybe audit is not the right term, but that is the term--we asked what efforts the department is making by way of auditing work procedures, et cetera, equipment and how employees are doing the jobs to prevent accidents from happening.
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Mr. Findlay: In the various activity levels in the department, there are Workplace, Safety and Health committees whose mission is to reduce the number of incidents or, where unsafe conditions arise, to try to correct them or educate the employees as to how to perform their activities and minimize the risk. There is an ongoing initiative to improve the workplace safety and to decrease the incidents and then, of course, improve the lifestyle of the employee of course.
Mr. Reid: I am familiar with the Workplace, Safety and Health committees. I mean, I have been involved with them for quite a number of years in other lives before this job. I also know, too, that there are circumstances that happen from time to time where there are unresolved issues arising out of the committee discussions that take place. How do we deal with them? I take it that there are similar circumstances happening within the department from time to time where you have unresolved issues.
Do you have any account of how many unresolved issues are there, and how are they dealt with? Do they move to the ministerial level, or are they dealt with by the senior management, senior administration?
Mr. Findlay: When the workplace safety committees hold their meetings, the minutes of those meetings are viewed by management. We are not aware there are any unresolved issues which, if there were, the committees could take it through the union, but we are not aware that there are any unresolved issues between the committees and management. Certainly there is a good working relationship and a resolving of any issues that are momentarily unresolved.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Activity Identification, the third line or third section: "Provides direction in the rehabilitation of injured workers." Could you explain what that means, provides direction?
Mr. Findlay: I will give the member some statistics on the Workers Compensation claims program which has been in place for some period of years. I could not tell you the exact number.
The department has managed the claims for 25 employees. Nine employees received training and were then reassigned to alternate occupations. Seven employees' occupations were modified to meet their restrictions. Five employees were able to return to normal duties following modified work programs. Three employees received pensions or alternate benefits. One employee's claim is still active, although a modified program is being developed.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Expected Results under Occupational Health and Safety, second one down: "Elimination of job-related hearing disorders through effective monitoring of workplace noise levels and audiogram testing." I guess I am just curious about what constitutes effective monitoring. Did someone go around with a little gadget measuring decibels, or just what happens?
Mr. Findlay: In 1994-95 approximately 250 tests were conducted. These are tests on the employees to determine the level of noise that they are working under and the level of ear protection that they should be utilizing in that particular work environment. So 250 tests in one year is a fair number of employees who are in some kind of a noise-involved environment, to test their level of hearing and their level of ear protection relative to the noise that they are working in.
Mr. Jennissen: So that is sort of after the fact, then. It is not proactive, like you test the noise level first.
Mr. Findlay: Yes.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Occupational Health and Safety, are there any vacancies right now?
Mr. Findlay: Are there any which?
Mr. Jennissen: Vacancies?
Mr. Findlay: No.
Mr. Jennissen: I have no further questions.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(g) Occupational Health and Safety (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $169,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $58,400--pass.
Item 2. Highways and Transportation Programs (a) Management Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $359,300.
Mr. Jennissen: I just want to make sure we are on the same page. Are we on page 34? Okay.
Again, under Objectives, the second part: ". . . the establishment of effective environmentally sensitive standards for the use of resources and materials, and the management of waste." What constitutes an environmentally sensitive standard?
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Mr. Findlay: I think it goes back to some of the comments I made earlier in terms of the kinds of projects we are involved in, the kind of landscape that we build roads in or upgrade roads in. There are certain criteria established by the Department of Environment which we use as a guideline in terms of determining what we would do at a particular project.
Also, the other side of it is in terms of the aggregate that we use in highways. There is a fair bit of recycling going on. When we build roads, ditches are contoured certainly for drainage; also, topsoil is put back to be sure that some vegetation can grow. There is a broad spectrum of activities all to meet today's expectation in terms of environmental sensitivity. If we are going to build a road to a marsh or a slough, you deal with a fair bit of public input in the process of deciding whether it will or will not take place in that location.
We just do not go out and roll a road down, like the old days.
Mr. Jennissen: Yes, this particular section with salary years and dollars and so on is quite different from last year's, and I have some difficulty figuring out just what happened, and maybe you can help me. Under Managerial, last year there were four, and this year we have only listed two, and yet again there are two listed. I guess this book and that book do not seem to jibe for me. Maybe I am just doing it wrong, but--
Mr. Findlay: Last year's book and this year's book.
Mr. Jennissen: Well, according to last year's book under Management Services there were four people, even though only two are listed here. That is the green one. Administrative Support last year was listed at 12 and it has gone down to five. Technical and Professional was listed last year at 11; it has disappeared entirely, so I guess where there were 27 bodies before there seem to be only seven now. I am just wondering what happened to the missing 20.
Mr. Findlay: In the overall appropriation if you look back last year we had eight subappropriations. This year we have three. It was designed to give the department greater flexibility in terms of basically moving resources around to meet demands. Examples this year, you know, we need more maintenance on certain kinds of roads because of the soft spring and the flooding in different locations. Previously, we had difficulty moving money around to meet an emergency one place and a lack of funds needed in another place. This has increased the department's flexibility and how they can manage. Although you see seven there now, the other 20 are located elsewhere in the overall budgeting process here. It is just a reorganization within the department from eight down to three subappropriations, causes that to happen.
Mr. Jennissen: Well, just for the record then, those 20 people have not been laid off or anything. They have just been shuffled around.
Mr. Findlay: That is right.
Mr. Jennissen: I do not think I have any more questions on this section.
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Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(a) Management Services (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $359,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $30,000--pass.
(b) Operations and Contracts (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,524,500--
Mr. Jennissen: Under Operations and Contracts, Activity Identification, the last one, I do not understand what "quality assurance systems" means: closely monitors the quality, quantity, costs, progress and delivery of the construction and the maintenance programs for various quality assurance systems.
It is just a term I am not familiar with if someone could just clarify that for me.
Mr. Findlay: In the process of what is called doing our capital projects or spending our money, we go through a process of tendering a project. The tender is called on the basis of specs for the job, whether it is a grading job, you know, certain width, depth, density, whether it is a gravelling job, again, width, density or paving job. We have people onsite, inspectors onsite whose job it is to ensure that the contractor lives up to the specs of the contract he tendered on to assure quality of the product for the ultimate user, the taxpayer who is paying for the job.
So although we have jobs done by contractors, they do not just go out and do it as they see fit. The specs are set before they tender. Then we will be sure that they meet the specs in the process of carrying out the project.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Expected Results, the second portion: "Timely preparation, advertising, award and payment of contracts for highway construction and maintenance projects in Manitoba." I guess the question I have--it is a bit of a sort of a speculative one--is that I know in the United States sometimes they have affirmative action kinds of awards or contracts.
The reason I bring it up is because in the North there are communities that say, well, we never seem to get a chance at any of these jobs. Why do they not hire northerners first or why do they not hire First Nations people first, because this is in our area. I am just wondering if you would like to comment on that. I am not speculating one way or the other. I hear this a lot.
Mr. Findlay: On the large projects which we tender, of which there are lots, for the good of the taxpayer we are looking for the best quality job at the lowest price. If a particular contractor from wherever wins a job, Flin Flon, The Pas, Thompson, he is free to hire whomever he sees fit to hire, whether it is a northerner or an aboriginal or whoever. We also do construction orders. Those are smaller jobs, and if a particular band, as an example, has construction capability they can get the construction order jobs that the department does put out.
The big tenders require bonding, which I understand is a problem for the bands that have equipment, but we have to have that. It is important. Otherwise we would put the taxpayer at significant liability risk. In the construction orders no bonding is necessary. So we do do projects in that context with northerners or bands as we do different grading contracts done by municipalities in the South. There is a lot of flexibility in the way the department has its various functions carried out.
Mr. Jennissen: Yes, the reason I bring it up is because, and I will be very specific, this occurred or has been raised and brought to my attention in South Indian Lake. I am not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask it, but I will ask it anyway, if it is okay.
Mr. Findlay: In some of our contracts we do specify local hiring, so that could allow for northerners or for aboriginals. You know, on different occasions we will specify that in a particular contract.
Mr. Jennissen: In the South Indian Lake case, what was happening was that there is a road going to be built from, I think, it is the South Bay Road where the ferry is now, right around it. I do not know--the feds are involved, I believe, in this. I am not sure how much Manitoba is involved. The band has made several strong hints, I guess is the way to put it, has given me several strong hints that they would like to be very much involved when those contracts are opened. I said, well, I certainly would bring it to the attention of the minister. Because they figure they are disadvantaged enough. They need jobs up there, and they think they have the capability to at least do part of that job, and apparently it is quite a lucrative job.
Mr. Findlay: The South Indian Lake road that the member refers to is part of the Northern Flood Agreement which has a 10-year window to have the road built. I believe three years have now passed, so the time is ticking.
The big construction job, the basic road construction job, is a big contract. We have a basic policy of tendering in those circumstances. As I mentioned earlier, construction orders, whether it is for clearing the right-of-way or other kinds of jobs like that that the department issues, for those construction orders, certainly consideration can be given to those kinds of smaller aspects of the total job. Maybe the big contractor who gets the job is capable of subcontracting, capable of hiring people or equipment to do various aspects of the overall job.
Mr. Jennissen: Basically, I guess, South Indian Lake people were saying, we want to get off social assistance. They do not want to be trapped with the stereotype, you know, we do not want a job, they just have difficulty finding jobs. That will be one way to get people off social assistance.
Mr. Findlay: That is respected and understood.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Operations and Contracts, it was called just contracts last year. Is there a particular reason why there is a label change?
Mr. Findlay: This is part of the catchup. Remember, we were talking about seven versus 27 before in an earlier category?
Mr. Jennissen: Yes.
Mr. Findlay: Some of those people have moved in here. They are called, basically, operations people involved in construction management and maintenance management. So they have moved in here, and that is why the terminology has changed.
Mr. Jennissen: In this particular Operations and Contracts, are there any vacancies right now?
Mr. Findlay: Three of the 38 positions are vacant.
Mr. Jennissen: How long have they been vacant?
Mr. Findlay: It would appear that all three have been vacant for about a year, and two of the three are definitely VSIP positions, Voluntary Separation Incentive Program. When we accepted the voluntary separation from the individual, to save money we kept the position open a year.
Mr. Jennissen: So then only one of those three was eventually filled, is that what you are saying?
Mr. Findlay: In due course, all three will be filled. We just kept them open and vacant for one year to accommodate a break-even position on total salary, because the person who retired got a retirement incentive of something over 30 weeks, two-thirds of a year of top-up salary to a retiring person, so in order not to be double-paying you leave the position vacant for a period of time.
Mr. Jennissen: Okay, but these positions are going to be filled?
Mr. Findlay: Yes.
Mr. Jennissen: I have no further questions on this section.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(b) Operations and Contracts (1) Salaries and Benefits $1,524,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $547,600--pass.
2.(c) Bridges and Structures (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,997,700.
Mr. Jennissen: Under the Rural Municipal Bridge Assistance Program, it is not anything I am really familiar with. Could I just get an update on that?
Mr. Findlay: We have a Rural Municipal Bridge Program and a Grant-in-Aid Program for municipalities. These are projects that they apply to us for for funding on a 50-50 basis. We have 400,000 in the Rural Bridge Assistance Program and 1.3 million in the Grant-in-Aid, which is for Grant-in-Aid streets in towns and villages. Certainly, these allocations are oversubscribed, overapplied for, and the department makes decisions on who should get the whole request or a portion of the request, but they are both 50-50 programs. The municipality manages it, pays for, and then by the process of presenting their receipts, then we pay them our 50 percent.
For example, a municipality may have a bridge for $50,000 and make a request for $25,000 from us, and if the project ends up costing $40,000, they pay 20, we pay 20.
Mr. Jennissen: This program--does that apply to the North as well? I am thinking of Cross Lake, specifically, South Indian Lake or the Flood Agreement. That makes it a totally different volume.
Mr. Findlay: These are for bridges on municipal roads. What you are talking about is actually on a provincial road, so we pay 100 percent.
The grants approved under the bridge assistance program for '94-95: Dauphin received a grant for $7,700; Dauphin received a grant $30,000; Dufferin Municipality for $85,000; Gilbert Plains, $15,000; R.M. of McDonald, $236,000; McDonald, another $15,000. Total utilized that year is $388,000, so fairly close to the $400,000.
Mr. Jennissen: Now, any rail line abandonment, would that have an effect on any bridges? Is that a factor, or is just--
Mr. Findlay: Rail line abandonment affects us in terms of use of our road infrastructure, because if a commodity is not moving down the rail, it is now going to move down first the R.M. road and then the provincial road. That extra weight--certainly on the road, more loads travelling more distances--puts more wear and tear on the roads and the bridges. And it is a major issue right across western Canada, but it is not a brand new issue. As I mentioned earlier to the member, 40 years ago railways hauled 70 percent of bulk commodities. They now haul 28 percent, so the remainder, you know, is on the roads of western Canada.
Over the course of time, if you look at our rural communities--and I can talk about the south, he knows the North, I probably know the south--we have seen communities where 25 years ago, the cars, their equipment, their fertilizer, their fuel, many other commodities came into and went out of the communities by train. Today, all the ones I have listed are moved by truck. The rail still hauls that big bulk commodity called grain, but even many of the special crops are moved by truck now.
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So it is a changing landscape, and what I am trying to tell you is that already, over the course of the last 20 or 30 years, a lot of commodities have moved off of rail onto road. Rail line abandonment has also gone on over the last 20 years. Whether 50 percent of the total lines have been abandoned is probably reasonably accurate, and more will be. But every time that happens, more weight moves onto our roads and the municipal roads and eventually gets to a rail line somewhere, but with more road miles involved.
The other thing to keep in mind is: when commodities move for greater distances by truck, they tend to get onto a bigger, more weight-efficient truck, like a five-axle, six-axle, seven-axle, maybe up to an eight-axle truck, as opposed to when it went to that local elevator, it usually went on a two-axle truck. And a two-axle truck is a lot harder on the road than a five-, six-, seven- or eight-axle, because the professional knows how to spread his load, and he does not overload. If he does, we generally catch him. But that individual farmer is only travelling two or three miles. He will overload, and although it is small--he thinks he does not impact--he does have an impact on the road, particularly at certain times of the year.
So it is a changing landscape out there, and we would like to see very efficient, profitable railroads functioning out there, and the process they are going through right now is trying to be that way, and they think streamlining their system will achieve that. We have contended that if CN or CP does not want to use a particular line, because it is low volume or whatever, inefficient for them, short line railroads are a very viable option, or an entrepreneur will feel, I can pull a number of cars up and down that line to hook them onto a train on the main line, and in different locations that has been an effective way. I think the railroads are well served by that, so they operate the main line where they are most cost-efficient and allow other people to do the gathering of the cars on the branch lines on a short line basis.
That whole picture is unfolding as we speak, as the WGTA changes and the pooling on the Great Lakes, those changes are causing the farmer to face full cost. Now he is looking at, how can I get my product to market--whatever that market is, wherever it is--most cost-effectively and is going to put a lot of challenge in front of railroads to keep their volume.
The challenge in front of the elevator system, in terms of how many elevators are needed, what kind of commodities will they handle, it is anything but a predictable scene out there right now.
Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister for that detailed answer. I can certainly sympathize with the farmer in the two-axle truck, having been one myself once and having overloaded it a few times, I am sure. I did not realize we were actually hurting the road that much, I guess.
Could I have one more question, or a couple more, on Bridges and Structures? Under managerial, one position was lost due to implementation of computer technology. Man being shoved aside again by machine. Can you comment on that?
Mr. Findlay: Deputy says fair, so--
Mr. Jennissen: Are there any vacancies in Bridges and Structures department?
Mr. Findlay: There are four vacancies here out of the 40 positions. That is what you are referring to?
Mr. Jennissen: Yes.
Mr. Findlay: I have more detail now. One position became vacant on February 3rd, and the individual was hired on April 18 of this year. Second position became vacant on April 1st of '94 and has been approved for filling as of April 5, 1995. A third position has been vacant since April 1, 1994. And a fourth position became vacant on March 17, '95 and was bulletined on May 10, '95, so it is close to being filled. So two out of the four, one is filled, one is close to being filled, the third one is approved for filling, and the fourth one still not approved.
Mr. Jennissen: That fourth one will be approved?
Mr. Findlay: I guess. Does it sound like I am begging for our jobs here?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2.(c) Bridges and Structures (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,997,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $302,100--pass.
Item 2.(d) Transport Compliance (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,967,700.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Transport Compliance, I am sure my colleagues will probably have some questions on this, as well, but the second one under Activity Identification provides for continuous control of vehicle weights, seasonal protection of highways and control of overdimension and overweight shipments. I guess I would like a little more information on that.
One of the things that bothers me, if I can just be off the topic a wee bit here, is when I used to travel to The Pas, people hauling the logs for what then must have been, not Repap but the company before that, Churchill Forestry or Manfor, they used to talk about a cheater's scale, whatever that meant. I mean, they pull the trucks off, unload, and then they go through a regular system. Is there some system in place that prevents that now? It probably no longer operates but I am just saying the potential was there once.
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Mr. Findlay: Well, certainly we have compliance officers, some rove around, you know, will stop anybody at any location they see fit. We have our weigh stations, or our checkpoints, where trucks are required to stop and are weighed through or checked for shortcomings in terms of equipment safety, and so on.
We have posted maximum weights for different highways. We have B1 loading highways, A1 loading highways, RTAC loading highways, you know, the different weight categories; 620,500 kilometres are RTAC; 56,000 is A1; 47,000 B1 loading. So there are maximum loadings for those particular highways. Also, in the spring, we have weight restriction, we have two categories. We have 350 pounds per inch width, 250 pounds per inch width, the tires, which means that the weights on those axles come down and at that time compliance officers are definitely active to protect the roads. The reason we do that is because of the spring break-up. When thaw is happening the roads get soft.
That is their job. The restrictions, the weights, the maximum weights are set for trucks in different circumstances and their job is to be sure that the trucking industry abides by them. We cannot guarantee that there are not people who will cheat but, nonetheless, we try to maximize the ability to get people to comply. The fines are pretty hefty so it is very dangerous to flaunt the law.
I will tell you an honest little story while I am doing this here. An individual, I guess it was at a 250 pound-per-inch width restricted road, the lowest restriction, effectively could not run his semi empty on the road. It was too heavy to run empty. Our compliance staff picked him up at three in the morning on the road. He was a little upset that we were out there at three in the morning, but he did learn that the watchful eye of the law is always there.
Mr. Jennissen: Is it possible to get an RTAC map so we know exactly which routes we are talking about?
Mr. Findlay: Yes, we have one right here. I will provide the member with this map which shows the RTAC routes, the 62,500 kilometre, and also RTAC routes during the winter period when the road is frozen. I will just pass this over to the member.
During the course of the winter, particularly during the winter, we may add additional roads to that category for a period of time when it is deemed appropriate. Often that happens after a request by particular companies moving certain loads or bulk commodities.
Mr. Jennissen: I can certainly add that the inspectors are out there because I got a ride--because the plane was not flying, I got a ride from Leaf Rapids to Lynn Lake with a guy in an ore truck and he says, I always load, I think he said, 2,000 kilograms less because we were nabbed once. In fact, the guy was out checking with the portable scale. I cannot say the road was in a great condition but certainly the inspectors were out checking weight.
Mr. Findlay: He was not overloaded?
Mr. Jennissen: No, he said never again. Something must have worked.
Under Expected Results: improved public relations through awareness programs that increase community involvement. I guess I would like a little more information on that if you could.
Mr. Findlay: One of the things that the public often, the attitudes that they often get is that we are just overregulating, we are doing it just to harass them, not that it was for any particular benefit for us or for them. Certain staff have done a fair bit of this kind of fence mending, for lack of a better word, to talk to truckers, R.M.s, whoever is upset, or maybe a farmer has got 50 loads of potatoes to go out and he has a restricted road at the end of his lane--to go out and to try to rationalize why we have restrictions and maybe there are accommodations to be made, say, in the early part of the spring. If the road is frozen overnight, then he can haul up to nine in the morning, but from nine in the morning till eight at night, not to use the road.
It is trying to improve the educational level of the people using the road for a greater appreciation of the road, and hopefully in the end we have happier customers and not really less wear and tear in the road but less destructive wear and tear on the road. That is the purpose of that. We find it is very useful to talk to people. If you could get them to understand, maybe see the reasons why, they are a little more likely to abide by the rules and regulations in the future.
Mr. Jennissen: One phrase I keep running into and I do not quite understand, and perhaps the minister can explain that to me, I just do not know it. It is single trip--collects various single trip fuel tax and permit fees. What does that mean?
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Mr. Findlay: The member is referring to the statement, collects various single trip, fuel tax and permit fees. These actually are a variety of fees for a trucker who wants an overweight or oversize permit. There is a fee collected for it. Or somebody who is not fully licensed makes a single trip into Manitoba from, say, Minneapolis. A fee is collected, or mode of fuel permits. There are a variety of fees for various activities that the department does a collection for: oversize, overweight, single trips, upgrading of licence, those kinds of things.
Mr. Jennissen: I would like to have sort of an idea of how many inspections actually occur, violations and the types of violations.
Mr. Findlay: I will give the member the total number of vehicles processed, where there were inspections done, 342,000. Of the 342,000 inspections, 3,770 prosecutions occurred, in other words, 1 percent; 1,275 for overweight; 264 for oversize; 31 did not have the appropriate PSV license; 1,450 for faulty equipment and safety violations; 393 called driver, vehicle and licensing were obviously a violation of licensing in some fashion; 107 for dangerous goods; 95 for hours of service, in other words beyond their allowed hours of service; and 190 for violation of oversize or overweight permit. There are eight categories of violation. The two biggest categories were faulty equipment and overweight.
Mr. Jennissen: Looking at last year's figures and the year before, the numbers are down considerably, 436,901 last year and the year before 520,897. I guess the question I have is, is it because people are obeying the law more or do we have fewer inspectors?
Mr. Findlay: I just gave you 1994-95. The total number of inspections done the year previous was 431,000. We did more inspections the year previous. We are actually doing more focused inspections where it is obviously warranted that we should do it. We did basically 100,000 more inspections the year previous. The number of violations was very similar, 3,512 the previous year and 3,770 this year. More focusing, 100,000 less inspections, but the number of prosecutions is very, very similar.
Mr. Jennissen: You are saying you are just more effective, getting a bigger bang for the buck, so to speak.
Mr. Findlay: I guess the inspectors can do a better job of focusing on who they should do an inspection on as opposed to doing an inspection where it is fairly obvious that they are not likely to have a prosecution. So it is more effective, more efficient use of the inspectors' time.
Mr. Jennissen: There are prosecutions and fines involved. Is there a figure in terms of the money it generates?
Mr. Findlay: Total fines collected in '94-95, $645,000, the year previous, $556,000. So they have collected almost $100,000 more in the way of fines.
Mr. Jennissen: And with regard to single trip fuel tax and permit fees, are those up as well? Could I have a figure on those?
Mr. Findlay: Single trip permits was $98,000 last year versus $162,000 the year previous; motive fuel permits, $116,000 last year versus $136,000 the year before; transit licences, $1,800 last year, $1,400 the year before.
Mr. Jennissen: Under Salaries and Employee Benefits, Technical/Professional, 46 salary-years, are all those people inspectors? Is that what we are saying?
Mr. Findlay: Yes, they are all inspectors.
Mr. Jennissen: Again I will ask the question about vacancies for this particular department.
Mr. Findlay: There are seven vacancies in this section. I might add that we have this transport compliance group of inspectors, the 46. We also have, we will call them transport inspectors, over in division of vehicle licensing. So we really have two groups of inspectors within the department, both dealing with commercial truckers. There seems to be greater efficiency if there were some degree of amalgamation between the two units that serve similar purposes. So these positions are being kept open with the idea of the amalgamation and what cost effectively do the two services that the department now does in the two different branches.
Mr. Jennissen: So you are saying then these vacancies will not be filled?
Mr. Findlay: At this time, there is no necessity for them to be filled.
Mr. Jennissen: Could I ask a question about dangerous goods? How many permits were issued last year?
Mr. Findlay: One hundred and seven violations that were identified by our inspectors. It could be any one of a number of particular items. They may not have been properly signed, proper placarding on the vehicle, may not have had the proper permit, may not have complied with the permit that they had. So it could be any one of a variety of violations that our inspectors picked up.
Mr. Jennissen: Now, are we involved if there is an emergency, let us say, some kind of catastrophe that happened with dangerous goods?
Mr. Findlay: This department?
Mr. Jennissen: Yes.
Mr. Findlay: The emergency response is from the Department of Environment. We might initiate the call or be part of initiating the response team, but it would be from Environment.
Mr. Jennissen: If I could go back again to those seven vacancies, they were vacancies by attrition or, like, they were just not filled? Are we saying seven inspectors less?
Mr. Findlay: By attrition, yes.
Mr. Jennissen: And there is no need because of the duplication you were mentioning earlier?
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Mr. Findlay: The department executive is going through some reorganization to be sure we fill our missions of compliance. You see our fees are up. A number of inspections are more targeted. It is an overall amalgamation, realignment of duties, more targeted duties, and it was deemed that these positions are not necessary to be filled at this time.
They may be filled in due course. I am not saying they will not be, but I cannot guarantee that they will. The idea is to have enough people targeted to serve the need that is necessary out there.
I think it is fair to say that the trucking community is more educated. As you mentioned, the person you rode with, he got one fine. The word spread, particularly to his wallet, that this is not something you do very often, and, you know, that other guy I told you about, picked up at three in the morning, that word spreads too.
So you get compliance without having to have an awful lot of heavy hand of inspectors out there.
Mr. Jennissen: I think my colleague might have a question on this.
Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, just to pick up on the vacancies, I am still having a hard time understanding how we had these seven people who were doing these duties before, and then all of a sudden, we determine that the duties are now redundant, and we no longer need those seven inspectors.
Can you give us some understanding of the type of duties that they were performing, that these jobs can now remain vacant and that it is no longer necessary for them to take part in those inspection activities for transport compliance?
Mr. Findlay: I will take the member back to statistics I gave earlier.
In '93-94, we did 432,000 inspections, and next year, we did 342,000, so 100,000 less inspections, so effectively you need less people to do that. It is just that you train and educate your inspectors to be more targeted in where they do the inspecting or who they do it on; for lack of better terminology, to be sure that you are inspecting somebody who is obviously or apparently in a violation situation. There is not a lot of value in inspecting somebody who is obviously not in a violation circumstance.
So if you do less inspections and you get more convictions, more fines collected, you have really targeted and increased the effectiveness of the staff who are there. I think that in a nutshell would say why less people can get the job done.
Mr. Reid: I know there have been 100,000 inspections less this year over last year's number, and I know that the department staff are well trained in the jobs that they do, or at least I am assuming that they are well trained, judging by the work that they have done over the years that I have been here.
How is it you determine which areas you are going to check for transport compliance? I mean, I know you have that experience, but do you also do spot inspections in other areas from time to time to make sure that there is compliance in there, and then if there is a problem that you spot, do you then target that as one of the priorities that you go and zero your human resources into those areas to do an overall check for that compliance? Is that how the department functions?
Mr. Findlay: Over the course of the past, a lot of our inspectors have been at the weigh stations, and, you know that a trucker pulling into the weigh station, he knows he better be in compliance.
So, really, an awful lot of inspection is done there where it is so-called fruitless in terms of finding people in some level of violation.
So an awful lot more of the time is spent as roving inspectors, out there spot checking at unpredicted times and locations which causes, I think, a greater level of compliance and gives the trucking public an understanding that if I go out on Highway 3 before eight in the morning, I am okay. You never know when that roving inspector is going to show up.
The issue is to get the trucking public to abide by the regulations, as many and varied as they are. The issue is not to catch somebody. It is to be sure that people respect the laws and regulations and abide by them. The idea is to find those who are in violation and send the message in the process of the way inspections are done that compliance is very, very good for your pocketbook. More targeted, more educated, better trained is the process to get the job done.
Mr. Reid: I imagine then that the staff know what they are doing as far as the inspections are concerned and they will be looking for certain areas, but I hope that they also look for things that are not part of their regular inspection programs as priorities that would be set by the department to ensure that there are not things that are slipping through here because of the number of inspections that have been decreased as well.
I have asked this question I know in past Estimates too. It relates to the weigh scale station. I think this is the section here where we can ask those questions. In the past there was a reduction in the number of hours of service in some of your key or strategic locations on your major arteries coming into the city of Winnipeg and coming into the province for that matter, with respect to the Headingley stations, the one at West Hawk Lake and I believe the ones down on Highway 75 coming into the province. Do you have a breakdown on the number of inspections that are done at each of those stations, and do you have the hours of operation for those stations as well, broken down by the individual stations, of course.
Mr. Findlay: I do not have the number of inspections, though we do have 11 permanent weigh stations currently in operation in the province. Headingley, which the member mentioned, is 24 hours a day, Monday to Friday. Emerson is Monday to Friday, various eight-hour shifts between seven in the morning and twelve at night. West Hawk is seven days a week, 24 hours a day, so it is continuous. Of the three, it is 100 percent, and Headingley is Monday to Friday and Emerson is Monday to Friday but not after midnight.
Mr. Reid: Then by the hours of operation that the minister has indicated, does that mean that the traffic flow patterns of the trucking industry are such that the bulk of the traffic coming from the east through the West Hawk station, which is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I think the minister said, indicates that there is more traffic flow there every day of the week and that we do not see that coming from the international trade patterns?
Mr. Findlay: We are not exactly sure, but we will have to interpret that the appropriate individuals made the decisions for these hours, believe that these are the hours the trucks are coming through. I do not know whether it had anything to do with the number of hours that the station is open, like the cross-border station is open at customs. We understand that if you are properly bonded you can come through any hour, but if you are not properly bonded, these may be the hours you are restricted to. There might be some relationship to that. If we can get a more full answer we will enquire.
Mr. Reid: I think my colleague, who is after all our transport critic, would appreciate receiving that, as I would be interested in knowing about it myself, because it seems strange. I believe the department has been trying for some time to develop through the I, T and T Department as well, the Kansas Corridor, for example, heading down to the Mexican market.
There have been some problems in the past with respect to non-Canadian equipment operating into Canadian jurisdictions that have been found to be lacking in the compliance aspect of the equipment. With that equipment running on our highways or the risk of it running on our highways uninspected for compliance of the codes that we have in this country, it seems strange to me that with an ever-growing market that we are trying to develop that we do not have a 24-hour operation in the Highway 75 area, the port of entry, as we will call it, from the U.S., our major port of entry into this province from the U.S. We have a 24-hour operation on the east side of the province of Manitoba in the West Hawk area that, although it is a feeder network from eastern Canada, I would expect that we would have a similar type of operation in the Highway 75 area to make sure that we have compliance there.
Since we are trying to build up that market, export-import opportunities, it would make sense to have some assurances that there is compliance in those areas as well and the only way to do it is to have a 24-hour operation.
Mr. Findlay: Just a quick comment. The fact that the station is not open after midnight does not mean that the roving inspectors are not out there doing their job one or two miles down the road sort of thing. The other thing is our truckers complain about the way they are treated in the States and we do not want to get the same black eye over here overinspecting or whatever, but our codes are codes and it should be abided by whoever is trucking up here.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The time is twelve midnight. Committee rise.