COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1.(b) on page 31 of the Estimates book and on page 23 of the yellow supplement book.

Item 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $395,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $73,700--pass.

1.(c) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $852,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $143,100--pass.

1.(d) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $215,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $33,000--pass.

1.(e) Manitoba Film Classification Board (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $108,000--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $193,900--pass.

Item 2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (a) Executive Administration (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $266,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $70,400--pass.

2.(b) Arts Branch (1) $470,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $129,200.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I have a couple of questions that I would like to ask in connection with 2.(b)(2). I noticed that the objective of the Arts Branch is to support the development of Manitoba's unique artistic resources and cultural industries. I am sure that the minister is familiar with the arts and policy review committee report of 1990, I guess sometimes known as the DeFehr Report. In the DeFehr Report there was a recommendation that an arts act be created and that it would, and I quote from the DeFehr Report: recognize the complexity and maturity of the relationship between government and the arts community.

Within that it appears to me that there were two basic aspects to the act, that the first one would include an affirmation that the minister responsible for the act be an advocate on behalf of the arts among government departments and agencies, and secondly that the minister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship present to the Legislature an annual report on the arts in Manitoba.

Clearly artists and art are important to several government departments, including Education, Tourism, Economic Development, and it would seem to me that an arts act would give the minister a golden opportunity to ensure that arts fulfill their role in relationship to these other areas. It would certainly give some local artists--I guess we should speak of artists province-wide--it would give them the recognition I think that some of them feel that they are being denied.

Quite clearly, the contribution of artists to Manitoba's cultural industries is clear in Expected Results where we read, and this is the second one: delivery of $2.2 million in support to Manitoba's cultural industries generating an expected $15-20 million in film video sound recording and publishing activity within the province in 1995-1996. I am just wondering if the minister has considered an art act as recommended in the DeFehr Report.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I will just take the opportunity before I get into my answer to table a couple of reports and give some responses that were called for the last time we met. I do have a copy of the arts policy review committee that the member just referred to that I would like to pass on to her. This was a report that came down in May and Art DeFehr was the chair. Roberta Christianson was the vice-chair. The members were Susan Drayson, Michele Lagacé, Murray McKenzie, Jack Murta, Louise Soubry and Max Tapper. I know they have been thanked before for the tremendous work they did in bringing this report forward.

Certainly it is a report that the department and the previous minister, as well as myself, have had an opportunity to refer to a number of times and use it as the basis of some dialogue, not only within the department but also with the wider community in setting policies and direction and, of course, the budget work that we do within the department and the groups that depend on this department for their resources. So I would like to table two copies of that, and if the member that represented the other group that was here on Friday wants a copy, I have another one that could be passed on to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

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I also have a report that we discussed on Friday, The Future of Public Libraries in Manitoba, A Strategic Plan for Public Library Development, prepared by the Manitoba Public Library Advisory Board. I did mention some of the members on Friday, and I would just like to go over them again.

Earle Ferguson is the chair of this board; Peggy Hood who is from the Carberry North Cypress Library branch which is part of the Western Manitoba Regional Library out of Brandon; Lucille Labossiere from the Somerset Library; Iris Loewen who is from the South Central Regional Library; Gina McKay who is an adviser to the Indian Cultural Education program for West Region Tribal Council; and a teacher from Winnipeg, Joan Oland who is with the Winnipeg School Division.

As well, serving on this board as ex officio members were Tom Carson, Deputy Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; Lou-Anne Buhr, assistant deputy minister; Jim Blanchard who is the director of the Public Library Services branch; and Mary-Lynn East, acting director, Public Library Services.

I have copies in both official languages for the critic, and other copies for the other member who was asking questions on Friday.

Lastly, questions were asked about the Manitoba Arts Council membership and specifically who the artists were that were on this. Again, that group is chaired by Roberta Christianson who is from High Bluff, Manitoba, and is a very active art supporter and volunteer. Don Timmerman is vice-chair; he is from Winnipeg and is a principal at Sturgeon Creek High School. He is very much involved in the music programs in the St. James-Assiniboia School Division and involved with the music camp at the International Peace Gardens. Pauline Braun from Thompson is a painter, and she not only is on there as a visual artist, but also, again, we talked about the gender balance and the regional balance. Lee Cameron is, again, a visual artist from the city of Winnipeg, and she is a former teacher with Winnipeg School Division.

Robert Campbell of Winnipeg is a senior minister of Westminster United Church and an adviser to the United Church Publishing House. Marie Cousins has served on this board for many, many years from Stonewall, and I think has just indicated her interest to not be reappointed. Lise Desilets from Portage la Prairie is an arts consultant and curator, and she is the current Manitoba representative on the board of trustees of the National Gallery in Ottawa.

Also, we have Barbara Ehnes from Brandon, a former professional ballet dancer and teacher at the school of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet; Philip Ens from Winkler who is a businessman; Joan Lloyd who is a vice-principal of Gordon Bell High School in Winnipeg; Joyce McKinney who is a visual artist from Swan Lake; Lyn Murta of Winnipeg, a business person; Helen Norrie of Winnipeg who is a freelance writer and reviewer of children's literature. I believe the other two members listed here have recently resigned.

So that is the information that was asked for last week.

Now, the question about the DeFehr Report and legislation-- government, of course, always has tentative legislation before each department, and I can tell you that we have looked very carefully at the report that was brought in by that committee. We have responded, I think, to some 30 of the 40 recommendations of the DeFehr Report, and at the present time we have not brought forward a piece of legislation, but we have not completely forgotten about it either.

You are absolutely right, you know, that there is interdepartmental interest and a need for co-operation on issues like this. I know that we do discuss and get into dialogue with some of the departments that have been mentioned, particularly the Department of Education and certainly also the tourism component of I, T and T, very much aware that some of the arts groups in Winnipeg are major, major attractions as far as bringing tourists into Winnipeg.

Certainly the productions, the one that was held this weekend and one that is coming up in August, bring hundreds if not thousands of people to the city to view them. Our major draws, of course, are the Museum of Man and Nature, the ballet and the symphony, very much a part of the cultural community. But, you know, we probably could even do more dialogue with the other departments in letting them know what direction we are going and what interest we have.

The member in her question mentioned CIDO, the Cultural Industries, certainly a big economic engine here within the province of Manitoba. I know that one of the major films that they were involved with, that we went to the opening of last summer, For the Moment, has received quite wide national acclaim. Just by way of interest, the producer-director, Kim Johnston, is a Winnipegger who has some rural roots. I know CIDO has worked with him twice on major films, and his first film, The Last Winter, won tremendous acclaim across North America. It is my hope that CIDO will have the opportunity to work with an artist like Kim Johnston again in the near future.

The member is absolutely right. For a very small investment that we put into Cultural Industries, there is a tremendous payback both in the film and sound industry, and while the film industry often is the most visual of those, the sound portion also creates tremendous jobs and spin-off.

It is my hope that CIDO will continue to be able to work with and fund these groups.

By way of interest, just last week--or was it two weeks ago?--they had a group in from California. I think it was actually five groups who were looking at sites across Manitoba for new productions. They not only were impressed with some of the sites in Winnipeg but were also in Brandon and some other communities in western Manitoba before ending up at Gimli, and we are optimistic that certainly the Gimli area and Lake Winnipeg is of quite a bit of interest to some of these groups.

Just a final item that I might mention to highlight some of the artists in Manitoba, we are putting together at the present time something called buyers' guide whereby we sent out notices some months ago to be able to put into one booklet some of the names of artists and of galleries so that visitors to Manitoba, and Manitobans indeed, who are shopping for local art--and you know with the number of conferences and people travelling within the province, there is always people looking for the type of gift that is created by a Manitoba artist, and we hope to have that buyers' guide out to the public in the very near future. We did receive a pretty good response from both artists and from galleries on that.

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Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for the materials that he has procured for me and also for his rather full answer. There are a couple of other things. I had asked for a list of the members of the Film Classification Board I think. The other thing is I wonder if I might have the list of the MAC membership, because just hearing it read I was not able to get quite everything.

As well I think, since we are mentioning cultural industries, we should acknowledge Manitoba Theatre Centre and their very famous production of Hamlet. I think they did a lot of--certainly did our city proud with that production and the number of people that came to Winnipeg.

However, in the interests of time, I wonder if I could move on to 14.2(b) and ask a question under 6.(b) Arts Grant Assistance. I am interested--and ask a question about the publishing support grants under 6.(b). I am interested in this particular budget line. Are these the grants that CIDO makes, the publishing grants?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, just in response to the early part of the question, the members of the Film Classification Board: Barbara Cannell is the presiding member, Meredith McArthur is the deputy presiding member. Other members are Louise Ferguson, Ernest Friesen, Evelyn Green, Hazel Hicks, Fred Krause, Diann Magnus, William Martin, Dianne Moon, Bev Muzyk, Laurette Simard, Kuldip Singh, Arati Dutta, Eleanor Smith, Gene Telpner, Carol Litman, Bill Pickard, Jane Robertson, Helen Hourie, Anita Lee and David Kives. Those are the members of the Film Class Board, and the members of the Arts Council will be in Hansard so that you will have a copy there.

The member is absolutely right about the Manitoba Theatre Centre and Hamlet. This was a tremendous coup on the part of the theatre centre, I think, in staging a Shakespearean play. I know there were many schools and young people out in rural Manitoba that wanted to come in and have an opportunity to see not only Hamlet but the star of the show, Keanu Reeves. Unfortunately their success was such that many Manitobans did not get to see it, but I think the theatre centre is to be congratulated in the direction they took in putting on a Shakespearean play but also bringing in someone very popular with probably people who normally did not go to Shakespearean theatre, and it was simply an overwhelming success.

I know the night that I was there I sat amongst people who were from Europe and the United States and in fact, I should tell you, the one young woman who sat next to my wife and I had come over from Germany explicitly to see Hamlet and Keanu Reeves. She was here for two weeks and this was her 10th time to view that particular play. I think again that MTC is very much part of the cultural industries in Manitoba.

You ask about the publishing support grants. These are not the grants that come from CIDO, but rather they are from within our department and the budget line for publishing support is $159,000 and it supports three programs for Manitoba book publishers. There is marketing assistance and project support and industry-wide initiatives. Publishers apply once a year for this support and may receive up to $12,500 from both programs, and joint programs may receive $25,000 from the industry-wide initiatives program. I can tell the member from visiting a number of the publishers here in Manitoba, they are very appreciative of the program and are also pleased that we have been able to maintain that program even though budgeting has become more and more difficult each budget year.

Eleven book publishers will receive support from that program in 1995-96.

Ms. McGifford: Well, I am very pleased to hear that book publishers are receiving the supports they need. At this time I wanted to register a community concern which I think I had hinted at in my introductory remarks, and that was small magazines. I think I explained in my introductory remarks that last year and this year small magazines had been very concerned about the cancellation of the marketing and project support programs for magazines. I think I also pointed out that the very existence of small magazines in Manitoba is threatened because these magazines do not have the financial resources to maintain their subscription lists.

The importance of this particular form for new writers in Manitoba--small magazines are absolutely important. Most of our new writers, whether they be fiction writers or poets, first publish in small local magazines and I think we are all aware of our very sound literary tradition. I think of younger writers like Pat Friesen, Di Brandt, Sandra Birdsell, older writers like David Arnason, all of these people began in small magazines, and if small magazines are to close because they are not able to retain their subscribers because they are not getting the necessary grants for their subscription work, we are certainly going to lose many Manitoba voices, and we are certainly going to lose many representatives of our culture. As far as small magazines obtaining funds from the private sector, I think we talked last day about the fact that small magazines do not have the same kind of high profile or focus that theatre or ballet has, and having been a part of a board of a small magazine, I know that it is virtually impossible to obtain this kind of funding. So I am wondering if the minister shares my concern about the potential loss of Manitoba writers and voices.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think, in very difficult economic times, government has to, certainly, make some decisions, and with the tremendous pressure on the budgets of governments right across this country to find funds for health care, and education, and social services, the governments across the country have had to make difficult decisions. Certainly, we will work very hard within this department, with the resources that are allotted to us, to provide whatever kind of support we can to artists in Manitoba, and I will take the member's comments as a representation.

Ms. McGifford: I wonder if the minister is willing to go to bat with his cabinet colleagues to get increased funding for the arts. So it is hard for the artists to feel happy when they see the millions of dollars in public funding going to the Winnipeg Jets, and I am sorry to keep bringing this up, but it is a reality of the times.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, certainly, there is always more demand for resources in the public than government is able to address, and this government certainly receives the accolades of many of the arts groups for maintaining the funding that we have through the last two or three budgets, while other levels of government are decreasing their support. This government provides more money per capita to the arts than any other government in the country, and I appreciate the member's interest in lobbying for a particular group out there.

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I will continue to do the very best that I can, and this department will, to spend the resources allotted to us by this Legislature in the best way we possibly can. I think that I am convinced that our share of the pie is not going to get any larger. We spend $53 million or $54 million, and if we are going to redirect resources to the groups the member is advocating for, rather than take it out of other departments, or out of capital expenditures, I wonder if the member would go a step further and give us some advice about what allocation within the department we should find those resources.

Ms. McGifford: I certainly do not think I am quite in a position to do that, but I will take it under advisement. I have one other question. Does the minister have any advice for these magazines?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I guess, the same advice that I would have for any artistic endeavour, to work as hard as they possibly can to promote their work, and to gain the public acceptance, and they will soon know if it is the will of the public to support them. We will try, within government, to allocate our resources in the fairest possible way. They, I think, should use the normal channels of presenting themselves within the department, and I am sure that, if there is possibility to redirect some funds at some time, they will be given due consideration.

Ms. McGifford: I have a final comment, rather than a question, and if art depended on public will, there would have been no Michelangelo, no Leonardo Da Vinci, no Shakespeare. I could go on, but art cannot survive on the public will.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it sort of begs a final comment on my part, too. I think that, if it had not been for a government and a department that has its finger on the pulse of the province, and the will to support the art that is out there in Manitoba, this government might have gone the way of governments in Saskatchewan and Ontario and B.C., or the federal government, or municipal governments, and drastically reduced funding to the arts.

I am quite proud that when I meet people who interact with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet or even the Artists in the Schools program that comes to small rural communities, there is a knowledge that this government has continued to provide substantial resources for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and that we have been able to, in very, very difficult times--where 90 percent of new spending of over $1.1 million has gone to health care, education and social services--maintain a budget that does provide substantive support to the cultural, heritage and citizenship community within the province of Manitoba.

While people in the arts decry the fact that the city is going to have less resources for them and find new ways to claw some of it back, while the federal government is doing tremendous reductions in their expenditures, it is this government in this province that has maintained a significant budget for the arts. Generally speaking, as I meet with people who access the arts, they are very supportive of the fact that our budget has been maintained, supportive of the process of the Manitoba Arts Council and have a very balanced view towards the manner in which they allocate those resources and the process, the jury process which allows members of the arts community to sit in and judge and make determination of where those precious dollars should be sent.

So while I could agree with the member that if we had more money, we would certainly find ways to spend it. While we do not satisfy every arts group out there, in these difficult economic times we have been able to maintain a substantial budget to the point where, in this province, we spend more per capita than any other province in Canada.

Ms. McGifford: I need to have an ultimate point, and that is: my concern is that if we do not support new and emerging grassroots artists, our art in this province will dry up and die. That is the point that I want to make in the arguments I am presenting about small magazines. We need to support people when they start. Thank you.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I tend to agree with part of what the member has said, that there has to be a balance in the manner in which we allocate the resources that we have, and certainly new and emerging artists, performers and people who rely on the arts have to be recognized and cultivated from time to time. This is why through CIDO, for example, that I am pleased that they recognize the talents of a Kim Johnston and give him the support that he needs in putting on and forming the type of movies that he has in Manitoba that have got him national and international acclaim.

Similarly, the Manitoba Arts Council is cognizant of the fact that young artists at grassroots levels have to be supported so that they in turn can gain the sort of predominance that the member is referring to. I might mention that Manitoba, through the Manitoba Arts Council, provides art magazines with grants at a level amongst the highest in Canada, and I realize what the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) is asking for is additional grants over and above what the Arts Council is doing.

I think in many areas the department supports new and emerging artists, and this I mentioned earlier. The buyer's guide is an attempt to put the names and the studios and the art of many young, emerging artists of various kinds before the public of Manitoba. I would hope, once we have that particular guide out in the public, that we will certainly send the member a copy of it.

As well, within the department, we have maintained a budget for buying local art. I just forget the budget number, it is $20,000 or $25,000, where through that particular budget line, we do support Manitoba artists and the studios in Manitoba.

I recognize that the member's concern is for the magazines, and I say to her that the Manitoba Arts Council does provide grant support, again amongst the highest in Canada. Again, if this department should be able to increase its funding in the next budget year, that may or may not be one of the areas that we see as a priority. There is always a demand within the department for additional funding and when the time comes to draw up the 1996-97 budget, we will certainly peruse Hansard and take the member's comments into consideration as we make those budget decisions.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, the minister interests me when he made reference that there is $25,000 which the government spends. Is that something that has been done on an annual basis? If so, how long has that been going on?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the member for Inkster for that question. The budget line--and I am not sure, we could find in the budget book where that is located for the member--it is around $25,000. I am told that for approximately the last three decades the province has been purchasing art, either directly from artists or from the studios that they work in.

Also, we have staff that go to the juried art shows around the province. Again, the purpose of the fund is to support those Manitoba artists and the galleries or the studios they work out of.

I know that the last time I was in Brandon in the art gallery there, they were very much aware that we had bought two pieces that were from artists that frequently show their wares within that particular studio.

So I think one of the guidelines that we use is not, you know, to buy it from different individual artists so that we are not buying all of the art from one person. We try to support as many artists and as many galleries as we can when we make that art purchase.

The art then goes into the government collection, which is administered by Government Services. Much of this art, or some of the art, is found in this building but also in other government buildings across the province who have access to that through Government Services. I think at one time when there was a new government building opened there was a very small part of the budget dedicated to some new art within that building.

On an annual basis then we put together a team of people from across the province who give us advice on what to buy, and eventually government makes decisions that are accepted by the department to buy this art. Certainly it has to be a Manitoba artist and we try and do sort of a geographical representation so when those juried art shows are on, we often buy one or two pieces, whether it is in Birtle or in Carberry or in Thompson. Sometimes we buy it directly from the artist or from the gallery here in the city.

Just further to that opening of new buildings, I am told it is around 1 percent as a policy that be devoted to some of the artwork. I dare say it may well be less than that. That is for new construction--1 percent of the capital cost, up to 1 percent for art.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am wondering if the minister can somewhat expand when you say, for example, there is $25,000 that is this year. Is that a fairly consistent amount of monies that are used on an annual basis then, over the last number of years, or do we see any sorts of fluctuations of any significant amount towards the purchasing of art? That would be one.

The second that I am interested in is when you talk about discretionary, what sort of discretion is actually used, discretionary authority, if you will, in terms of actually the purchasing of art? So there is an art show over here, art show over there, throughout the province, do we have someone that is from within the department that attends all the different art shows? Or if there is a young budding artist that would like the opportunity to sell some work to the province, is there a number in which they would call and say, hey look, I want you to see my art? How do we know, or how does the minister assure that it is kind of an open, equal playing field situation so that people are in fact able to participate?

The third and final would be the average cost for a piece. I recall the Canadian art gallery in Ottawa, the National Museum I believe is what is was called, and it would spend $1.5 million a number of years ago on a piece of art that had three lines of paint through it, that type of thing. It seems that art can be extremely expensive, and I am wondering what would be the average cost of a piece when you go out and purchase.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the member for those questions. The budget has been static for quite a number of years, and when we get to that budget line, I could get you the exact information. It is around $25,000, though, and that to my knowledge has not changed for quite a number of years. The question about how people know about it, there are about five juried art shows throughout the province on an annual basis, and one of them is always here in Winnipeg. I know there is always one in northern Manitoba. Probably the other three are outside of Winnipeg and outside of northern Manitoba. There are five of them, and the organizers have come to expect that we will have representation at the juried art shows to make an art purchase based on the adjudication that has taken place there.

The question about knowledge, there are about a dozen galleries, I think, that the committee visits on an annual basis. They are alerted as to the timing, and they, in turn, will alert the artists who normally show their work there. I think it is well known within the community that the government has been doing this for some three decades. Anyone who wants to have their art considered, we will ensure that they have their work in one of those galleries if it is of a certain quality. I know back in March, I think it was, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) and the former member for Crescentwood and I did a discussion at an event in the city here about the department. We were talking to artists and this came up that evening. Most of the people in attendance were well aware of the fact that government does purchase art, and we were lobbied to increase that budget.

Again, as I said to an earlier question, it is often difficult to find new resources within this department, and then the question arises, where do you spend that next dollar? I think throughout the art community it is well known that government has an annual art purchase that has been going on for about three decades. As well, another member and I were on an access television show where we talked about this with some of the artists. It appears to me that it is well known within the community that government has historically and traditionally purchased art either from these galleries or from these juried art shows.

The other question that the member mentioned referred to the National Gallery in Ottawa spending millions of dollars on one piece; I would say the average we spend is around $400, $500. It may go up as high as $1,000 for a piece. We are trying to give financial support, first of all, to artists by supporting them by buying one of their works, and also supporting galleries by buying from the galleries. I am told that in the 1993-94 budget year we bought 20-some pieces of art, so the average was a little higher. It will vary. You may get a piece that is worth maybe $1,500 or $1,600, but there are lots of them that come in at about $400 or $500.

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Again, it is not just paintings but it is any type of visual arts. I know that within the government collection there is some pottery, some stained glass works. Sometimes these are shown in various public buildings. I know the building over here on Vaughan Street, the Archives, the first time I visited there there was a stained glass display. These had been purchased from artists within the community.

Mr. Lamoureux: You have had them in the rotunda, too?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank the member for the question. From time to time, there is artwork that is displayed within the rotunda. There is a room down in the bowels of this building where some of it stored, but by and large we try to get the art out to as many government buildings as we can. I know that sometimes when there are changes of ministers and deputy ministers, or buildings opening, people go down there, or sometimes they just want to change the art and they can go and look in the storage archives to see what is available. Of course, different ministers have different tastes, but there seems to always be a demand for art for these public buildings.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (b) Arts Branch (2) Other Expenditures $129,200--pass.

2.(c) Public Library Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $743,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $455,000--pass.

2.(d) Historic Resources (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,133,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $331,200--pass.

2.(e) Recreation (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $325,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $158,900--pass.

2.(f) Regional Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,041,900--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $321,100--pass.

Resolution 14.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,447,200 for Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 3. Information Resources (a) Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,949,800.

Mr. Lamoureux: This is the line, I believe, where there is the purchasing of advertising for the government.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am wondering if the minister could give us some sort of a breakdown in terms of which departments would be spending what sort of money on advertising over the last fiscal year.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Maybe while I am getting that information, I would introduce Linda Perreault who is the executive director of Information Services who has joined us here at the table.

The member is correct. The information that government distributes to the public does come through this branch and it is responsible for the communications and advertising from across government.

I can give the member some information on some of the work we do in Information Services that might give him a better understanding of how this works.

Travel Manitoba, which is basically our tourism initiatives, the budget line was around $700,000. The printing of tenders which appears in many of the daily and weekly papers across the province was budgeted at $200,000. The careers--this is advertising job openings you may see in the daily papers, particularly on Saturdays I think, a lot of advertising for positions, was $175,000.

And then, from time to time, there are new programs that come forward. The Grow Bonds advertising was a little over $254,000. The Home Renovation Program, which was a very, very popular program across the province although I think the total budget in Home Renovation was underspent in terms of people responding to the advertising and submitting the applications and taking part in this program, but the program expenditure for our department was a little over $151,000. Information on the retail sales tax rebate was $62,000. Advertising and information put out on DPIN was $163,000. The Manitoba 125 advertising was in the neighbourhood of $67,000. The welfare fraud line, which was a new initiative from Family Services that started, I think, in the previous year, was $88,000. The International Year of the Family, which, I think, was 1994, and part of that wrap-up and expenditures was in the current budget year, was $63,000.

There were other programs, some advertising and information on education reform was $150,000. There was information on the economic development, $136,000. In total there is--and I have not mentioned them all, but I am not sure just how much information the member wanted--but our budget line was $2,384,100.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate in terms of the last three years what the total budgeted amount would have been?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told the number I gave you of $2.3 million has been traditional, probably for the last three or four years.

Mr. Lamoureux: Would these figures also include the cost of production of the advertising on the communication piece?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the budget line is for purchase of media, and in some cases it includes production.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate in which cases it would have included production?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that in the Home Renovation Program it included production. In the DPIN it included production, as well as in the Manitoba 125, in the welfare fraud line, the International Year of the Family, and education reform.

Mr. Lamoureux: If I was wanting to try to locate the costs of production for other advertising as done through government, would it then be going to each independent department, or who would ultimately be responsible for that? Would the minister know?

Mr. Gilleshammer: As the member can tell from my previous answer, the production generally is part of our costs. Where it is not, it will come from the other department who is responsible for that program.

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Mr. Lamoureux: In just going through the different advertising that the government has done over the last year, would you have a breakdown, for example, of how much of the advertising dollar would have been spent in the first months or the last three months of the fiscal year compared to the first three months of the fiscal year, any sort of a breakdown of that nature?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we do not have that information here, but I will endeavour to get some information on that.

Some of these, of course, are dependent upon when the program was brought forward by a particular department. For instance, the Grow Bonds did bring information on a number of the successful bonds and made the public aware of that as a vehicle through Rural Development. I think the Home Renovation Program was, again, brought forward by Housing, and I would think that the advertising tended to follow when that program was brought forward. The education, for instance, a lot of that was done I think in the spring of this particular year, but we can endeavour to get some of that information gathered up for the member.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am interested in terms of the actual process, if you like, in terms of how it is determined that, look, here is a program, we want to advance this program, and the potential for political manipulation of sorts that could be out there. Let me give an example. In terms of appearances, I recall, for example, a couple of years ago with the antidrinking commercials that government was putting out, you would see the minister responsible talking about the dangers of drinking and driving. How much of the advertising, if you like--or maybe there was not--but out of the advertising from last year, where you actually had a minister or a government member, MLA, that is actually involved in one capacity or another of the promotion of the program?

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I say to the member that our department is where the Information Services are lodged, and departments bring forward their initiatives whenever they are ready. It is not dictated by when we have time to do it. Departments, when they have either legislation passed or budget passed or new initiatives that are completed, then come forward to our department to put together their package on how they are going to communicate that with the public. So we simply respond to when departments are ready to go ahead with an initiative, where they have finalized an initiative, and they want to make Manitobans aware of that. The people working within our department, with this budget line of $2.3 million, which has been quite consistent for a number of years, we make our services available to them and then the expenditure for that is lodged within Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am sure that the department, because after all, it is footing the costs of the bill, would be aware in terms of how many members of the government's side of the House actually participated in some capacity, whether it was appearing on a TV ad, promoting a particular program. I wonder if the minister can indicate how many times, if any, where, let us say, for example, the Premier appeared in the promotion of the Grow Bonds ads? Does this in fact occur and, if so, can the minister then enlighten us as to which ministers or which government MLAs, or opposition MLAs too, but I do not recall hearing anything about opposition MLAs?

Mr. Gilleshammer: What I think the member is asking for is a very rare thing. Particularly in the electronic media, I know that--[interjection] I will remember the question, and I will finish it when we come back.

Formal Vote

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Order, please. A formal vote has been requested in the Chamber. This section will now recess until after the vote.

The committee recessed at 3:38 p.m.

________

After Recess

The committee resumed at 4:10 p.m.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. We shall now resume consideration of line 3. Information Services (a) Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 32.

Mr. Gilleshammer: In answer to the member for Inkster, it is common practice, I think, for the department to indicate in some of the print advertising, the ads that they put out and occasionally on tender documents or some of that advertising, at the bottom the minister's name may appear.

Another thought that came to mind was a number of years ago in the drinking and driving campaign that was so overwhelmingly accepted by Manitobans, and we are often given plaudits as having the toughest driving and drinking legislation in North America, I recall that while the present leader of the unofficial third party was very much opposed to that, by and large that has been good legislation, so much so that the Broadcasters Association picked up the cost of much of the advertising that was done as a public service to Manitobans.

Sometimes it is difficult to separate one ad from another, but there are times when groups like the Broadcasters Association will use their funding and their abilities to highlight a particular program. Of course, if that works with government and is consistent with the message of the legislation and the intent of the government, that amounts to additional advertising of a particular initiative that is not a cost to the public but one that is picked up by the private sector.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3. Information Resources (a) Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,949,800.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have a question about Citizens' Inquiry Service. What does that include for the department?

Mr. Gilleshammer: This is a small unit within our department that is basically an answering service to the public, and it is operated in both official languages so that any member of the public who has a question about a government department or about government programming can phone that particular number. They in turn put them in touch with the appropriate government department and facilitate the ability of members of the public to get the answers to questions that they might have. As the member can appreciate, some of the government programming is very complex and, to a citizen who perhaps is not sure of what each and every department does, it enables them to have an avenue to contact government, basically to get referred to the appropriate department or the appropriate program.

Mr. Gaudry: Are there complaints that are recorded in that service?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the answer to that is yes.

Mr. Gaudry: Is there a record kept of the various complaints that are given to that inquiry?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the answer is yes.

Mr. Gaudry: Are there statistics to compare to the previous years?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.

Mr. Gaudry: Could the minister elaborate what kind of complaints they get on this service?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we get a rather wide variety of complaints that come through this particular unit. It may be frustration with a particular program or the complexities of a particular program, a desire to understand government programming better. Sometimes you can appreciate people want a simple yes or no answer to a question that could be quite detailed. It will be lodged within a particular department which will require further information on that specific case. This particular group does provide the avenue for people to get that information. People get frustrated in trying to access information from government in that they are often looking for one-stop shopping and if the question is detailed and specific and personal, this unit endeavours to pass them on to the appropriate government department.

As the member is no doubt aware, if it is a more specific and serious complaint that cannot be answered by the department, or if the person making the inquiry is not satisfied with the answer, they always have the avenue of going to the Ombudsman to have their concerns taken through that route.

Mr. Gaudry: Have there been many complaints that have been referred to the Ombudsman?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we have no record of any that were not resolved at this level that needed to be advanced to the Ombudsman.

Mr. Gaudry: My next question, you have here services include corporate communications management support. Can the minister elaborate on this support?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairperson, part of the responsibility of Information Services is to assist departments as they are purchasing services from different types of media, different kinds of broadcasting. Information Services tries to get an understanding of what the government department wants and then assists them with realizing those goals by putting them in touch with the various forms of advertising.

Mr. Gaudry: The sale and distribution of statutory publications, what is involved in the sale of these?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We work on a cost-recovery basis with the statutory documents and we sell them back to departments, to law firms and to members of the public.

Mr. Gaudry: You also show the operation of the Provincial Archives of Manitoba. Could the minister elaborate on what is involved in the operation of the Provincial Archives?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I certainly can. It might be valuable for the member to take the time some day to visit the Archives to see the tremendous amount of information about our province that is lodged there.

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I recall the first time that I made a visit over there, and the staff were aware that I was coming over and they made a conscious attempt to bring out of the Archives things that I would be interested in, like school registers from not only the school I taught at, but ones I attended when I was a little bit younger. Also, they would find copies of books that had been written by people who are my constituents. The Archives is a tremendous repository of a lot of the history of Manitoba.

I might just mention the most significant new acquisition in the Archives is the Hudson's Bay collection. We are just thrilled that Manitoba was the recipient of the Hudson's Bay collection, a collection valued at I believe over $60 million. I remember being told at that time that this collection of history of the Americas was probably second only to the Vatican in value to historians and in dollar value.

This area is used to some degree for research and community use, that there is a wide array of researchers who constantly access the Archives to look up some of the documents and some of the history that they would be involved in. I know the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) was interested in some of the writers whom we have in Manitoba, and some whom I am familiar with spend a lot of time at the Archives researching specific things about their area of the province.

In fact, this summer we are going to honour a late citizen of Minnedosa who did a tremendous amount of research on what was called Tanner's Crossing, which was the first name for Minnedosa. I will tell you, a lot of that history would have been lost or undiscovered in the Archives if it had not been for the research done by Dr. Peter Neufeld. I know at the time, sometimes it seemed sort of trivial as he wrote his articles, and, recently, as it has all been brought together, I think the community has certainly rediscovered what a valuable resource the Archives is, for someone with an interest in history to be able to go there and to be able to do that type of research and bring it forward to make the greater community more aware.

I would invite the member, at any time, if you would like to visit the Archives, it is tremendously interesting, the amount of information and knowledge that is stored there about our province and, again, as I said, I cannot be more pleased that the Hudson's Bay collection was given to Manitoba and given to the public. I think it enhances our Archives to a great degree to have that housed here in Manitoba, and believe me, there were other governments and other cities and other people very much wanting this particular collection.

Given that there is a tremendous change in technology as we enter close to the next century, the Archives has a real challenge, and I know the member will be able to read my comments in Hansard and would be very interested in it, that there is a challenge to update the technology that we have, so that the information that is available in the Archives will be even more accessible.

I think many people in the public think that this is a place that you need very, very special permission to go, but I encourage all members present and in the Legislature to take some time out of their busy schedules to visit the Manitoba Archives and see a rather beautiful building, as well. In fact, there is a real history to that building which was once a concert hall here in Winnipeg, and, now, it is sort of built like Fort Knox to look after our collection, and it is very important that we have the appropriate sort of indoor atmosphere there, so that the documents and the films, the papers, can all be maintained for Manitobans at a future time.

Maybe I will just leave it at that, and I know the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) was not able to stay with us, but I would certainly offer to take him or anyone over there or help arrange that trip, because I think if you have any interest in history at all, you know, the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature is one avenue, but the Archives is probably a place with even more detail that you might find some interest in.

Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, indeed, it is unfortunate, in a sense, that when you have three committees, there is lots of good discussion that is going on in both committee rooms and inside the Chamber, and the member for St. Boniface, I know, was wanting to go into the Health Estimates just before it concludes to hear some remarks. Just equally, I felt terrible having to leave Health, because we were getting into somewhat of a discussion in terms of a vote that we just recently had.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Would you mind if I just interrupted to introduce a new staff.

I would like to introduce Sue Bishop who is the Executive Director of the Provincial Services Division and Legislative Librarian, who just joined us at the table for our discussion of the Archives.

Mr. Lamoureux: Having said that, the minister had indicated that he was going to get back to me after the vote in terms of bringing forward some information. I am wondering if the minister had the opportunity to do just that.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I did answer that in your absence, and it will be in Hansard if you want to read it there, or I can go through some of it again, if you like.

Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, because I was giving a speech on health care at the time, I would appreciate it, because there is no doubt some follow-up questions that I might have with respect to it.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I regret I was not able to stay in there and hear your views on health care. I certainly intend to get Hansard at my earliest opportunity just to get a better understanding of the Liberal Party's point of view on health care. I did note that the members voted with the government, and I am very pleased to see that sort of independence from the opposition side. I will look for those comments.

I just mention that there are times when, in print advertising that goes out--I know when I was in a previous department and we advertised the summer job program, I just forget what it is called now, CareerStart. We took out block ads with a tremendous amount of information, and at the bottom it was customary to say, Department of Family Services, minister so-and-so, in the very, very small fine print. So that sort of thing happens from time to time with government advertising.

I notice with some of the infrastructure signs that I see around the province, it will have, this project is sponsored by the federal government, the provincial government and the municipal government and it will have Lloyd Axworthy's name on there. These things happen as part of the, I guess, program description so that people know which department is responsible for them.

I also made the point in your absence, while you were making your health speech, that I recall the drinking-and-driving initiative which was extremely popular with Manitobans and was, I guess, part of the picture in deeming that Manitoba had the toughest drinking-and-driving legislation anywhere in North America, that virtually everybody came onside with that initiative. They saw the good sense to the initiative. I did mention that one of your colleagues from before was against it, but he is not with us anymore.

At that time, because it was such a popular program, the Broadcasters Association of Manitoba picked that up as a public service-type announcement. They spent, I would think, thousands and thousands of dollars highlighting that initiative because they felt they had some, I suppose, corporate responsibility and public responsibility to get on board with legislation that was so overwhelmingly acceptable, that could save lives and still allow people to pursue their lifestyles without having to drive. I recall then that the Justice minister at that time, I think, in the public service ads, took a small part.

So sometimes to the public, of course, it is hard to separate one from the other, and sometimes these are part of news clips as well. I can recall a Finance minister talking about HydroBonds and how this was a program that was being introduced to Manitobans. So it is sort of a rare thing, but it happens from time to time.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, it would be fairly difficult to criticize government if government is--you know, you have a large project and then on it, it has in the small bottom-hand corner: put together from the government of Manitoba with the minister's name on it.

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I think that has actually been going on for years. What I am interested in more so is when you get advertising that is spent and the advertisement features a government MLA in a very prominent way, I am wondering if the minister could indicate, for example, where there would have been pictures being used and particularly, say, for television advertising.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not have that information.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate whether or not that has occurred?

Mr. Gilleshammer: In my memory, I recall the initial ads for HydroBonds in about 1989 or at some point, and, again, I remember the public-service advertising that the broadcasters were involved in. Those are the two that come to mind.

Mr. Lamoureux: Would the minister be able to then confer with the civil servants and see if, in fact, there is some sort of--because ultimately you are responsible for the producing or at least the paying of advertising. I assume that you watch before, whatever it is, or you screen as opposed to--and maybe the minister might even want to comment on that. You know, all of a sudden, he has this open-ended budget department and whomever wants to advertise, they just say, we want to advertise this, and then they are given a block of money to do their advertising. I would assume that the department would, in fact, know in terms of what is all entailed in the advertising. I would think that they would have some sort of a better, more definitive idea in terms of how many times, for example, we are to see Premier Gary Filmon in a commercial or another minister or government member.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed by the staff that they can remember just one occasion. That was in 1988-89, and I was wrong, it was not the Minister of Finance. The Premier, apparently, was in the ad on the HydroBonds.

Mr. Lamoureux: The drinking and driving legislation that was passed, was there not a component to that where we had the-then minister, now Minister of Health, that was involved in that ad?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The only ad that he was involved in was sponsored by the Broadcasters Association.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister give some sort of an indication in terms of process on what the process would be? Obviously, government comes up with a new program. Are there checks in place to ensure that advertising does not cross a line in terms of being too political? Are there checks in place?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told there are checks and balances in place to prevent the misuse of ministers' pictures on advertising that are quite strict, and I suppose that is why it is something that does not happen.

Mr. Lamoureux: Could the minister elaborate on that in terms of what sort of a thing he would be referring to?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, sure. It is, I guess, incumbent on each and every department to be aware of the fact that information should not be used inappropriately; as a result, within each department, this is something that senior staff would be keeping an eye out for, and, ultimately, the deputy minister. Then, when that happens, and that sort of screening happens within each and every department, our particular unit of Information Services has the same role to look at and screen out anything that would be inappropriate. But that is a rare occasion, and I suppose there are enough checks and balances within various components of each department and at the department level and then within Information Services, so that this sort of thing does not happen.

I am told that we are in the midst of developing and reviewing a policy of a broader nature, but that nobody in Canada has come up with a definitive policy in any of the provincial governments or in the federal government. So it is something that probably other governments look at from time to time too, but it appears that our screening process in Manitoba has been quite effective.

Mr. Lamoureux: I can recall an incident--I do not know if it was last fall, but there was a travelling magazine, a rural magazine, that was being put into circulation, and the minister reminded me of it when he made reference to the screening out of ministers or whatever the proper context he would put it in. I can recall that in this particular journal there was an article with Lloyd Axworthy in it, and I am wondering--after it was produced, the government then had paid to get the page either ripped out or blackened out or something of this nature. Is this department familiar with that particular example at all?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not recall that.

Mr. Lamoureux: So there is other advertising, other forms of advertising of which this department would not be aware, that government does do?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is that there are other publications from other departments of government that we are not involved in when they have partnerships with the private sector.

Mr. Lamoureux: To pick up on that point then, I am looking at education reform, $150,000 was designated for its promotion. You indicated that the setup costs would have included that $150,000. There was a phenomenal amount of paperwork, if you will, in the action plan and the blueprint and so forth. Would this department have anything to do with that, the putting together of that package? It was that blueprint that you would actually see on TV. I had an opportunity to actually see one of the commercials. Would that be something then that would also be entirely, because it is a publication, at the cost of the Department of Education?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would point out that the word "promotion" was the member's word. I am told that we were responsible as a department for the design of the publication. The content of the publication would come from the Department of Education.

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I tell you, when you have an important initiative like education renewal where there was just a tremendous demand out there for information contained in the blueprint and changes that were being proposed, and I might add ideas and issues from time to time that were brought up in the House where people were demanding, sort of, to see in print the correct information because sometimes they would get a glimpse of something on television or a quote in the paper, and this is terribly inadequate in explaining a major change in the structure and the delivery and the presentation of public school education in Manitoba.

I know that there were a number of meetings with teachers and with parents, with students and other interested people to develop the blueprint--and as a result of all those public meetings which were replicated in most school communities across the province.

I know within my constituency is the little school division of Rolling River that has about 20 schools. With the interest shown there, there was just a tremendous demand for information about the proposed changes. People wanted to get the detail to be part of the final solution and, as a result, a lot of work was done by the Department of Education in producing a number of documents that were given province-wide distribution. In fact, I understand that many people in other provinces were asking for this enlightened document to get an understanding of what Manitoba was doing.

There was a production cost, a printing cost there to get that information out to the school community, to the public, who desperately want to be involved, whether at the school board level or the school council level to get a better understanding of some fundamental changes that are taking place in education. There is nothing nearer and dearer to the hearts of Manitobans than the education of their children. As a result, there was quite an expenditure on those booklets as they were in demand by trustees and teachers, by students and parents. Our responsibility, within Information Services, was to get the layout of the thing and the technical details. The content came from the Department of Education.

Mr. Lamoureux: I do not want to spend too much time on the line. I was wanting to know in terms of when the minister made reference to the $2.3 million in terms of an annual operating budget for the purposes of advertising, some of that advertising would also include the costs of production. I believe the minister is correct when he gives the response that that is very similar to what it has been over the years.

When we go to purchase, whether it is air time on TV, radio, newspapers, smaller community newspapers and so forth, do you do that on a project-by-project basis or does the government say, well, look, we can anticipate using this amount of time in air, this amount in print and then try to bargain from that point of view? Is there any of that done at all?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I tell you, we are very conscious of working within a budget, and I know there are some ads that go province-wide. When the Public Utilities Board has a hearing they have a rather large ad in, I think, every daily and every weekly paper. I think we have some statutory responsibility in some cases to make this information available as widely as possible.

There are guidelines within the department. For instance, when you are advertising for a senior officer within some department, then you advertise within certain papers. An ad for a new position at the senior level in Culture, Heritage and Citizenship will not appear in the Rivers Gazette but it will appear, probably, in the Brandon Sun and the daily papers and maybe even some of the national papers.

I am told that we also have a volume contract that is negotiated annually and the buy is based on volume discount so it does assist us in keeping within our budget. I am told that our budget is about .02 percent of the provincial budget. I am also told that is the lowest in Canada. What we are expending on this line, I suppose, while over $2 million does certainly appear as a large expenditure, it is very necessary to get that information out to the public.

Now, when you have something like this forest fire situation up north I could well imagine that this is an unforeseen expenditure because lives are at stake and we have to, in many cases, get information out there. I know when the floods were on too that there was a certain amount of advertising. Then as people are looking for, sort of, settlement claims and compensation where there might be a confusion whether it should be crop insurance or disaster assistance, to be able to communicate those things, the department has to, on the one hand, budget for these things but often there are unforeseen things that come up which will impact on the budget.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am interested in the comments in terms of the .02 percent. In fact, whether it was the HydroBonds, Grow Bonds, CareerStart, retail sales tax rebate promotion, economic development, none of those, for example, would have included production costs. It is not necessarily fair for us to say that we are the lowest in Canada. I do not necessarily want to concentrate on that point.

With reference to the--

Mr. Gilleshammer: Can I respond to that?

I did not do these calculations myself. I rely on my deputy and my senior staff here. If they tell me it is .02 percent and it is the lowest in Canada, I accept that.

Mr. Lamoureux: I am not necessarily going to question the civil servant's response with respect to the actual dollar amount that is there, but one of the things that does need to be factored in, I would think, is that much of the advertising that is done is not, in fact, produced with just dollars from within this department. Other departments, as the minister had implied, actually do pick up production costs and production costs can be fairly hefty.

We do not, or at least, I do not know, and I would not expect that the ministerial staff would know right offhand if other provinces factor all of this in, some do, some might, who knows. I do not necessarily want to spend time on that particular question but the minister wants to respond to it. The last word it is called.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told by my senior staff that if you factor in those production costs based on the volume of work we do, we still have the lowest advertising budget in Canada. I know the member for Inkster will feel good about that.

Mr. Lamoureux: I will leave the last word on that for the minister.

Volume contract that the minister refers to, do we actually have a list of those individuals, and it does not even have to be with the volume contract, is there a list of where and whom we advertise with?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I would expect that information is in Public Accounts.

Mr. Lamoureux: No doubt, in any question one could ask, they could come up with a response in terms of where it is that we can actually find it. Not necessarily knowing the format of what it might be in Public Accounts, if it is all on one page, if it is partially on one page and partially in other areas, the minister might actually have access to a list. If the minister does, fine. That would be nice to be able to get a copy if it is not too much trouble. If the minister does not have the list and is saying it is in Public Accounts and would appreciate my looking for it, I will accept that. But I ask primarily because the minister might actually have this information more at hand as opposed to--and I could be dead wrong in my assessment. It might be one page in Public Accounts on page whatever. I do not know; that is the reason why I am asking.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: I will endeavour to get the member some more information.

Mr. Lamoureux: To that end I am interested in terms of the volume contract. What percentage of the overall budget would that actually entail, roughly?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that probably 90 percent of our advertising would be encompassed by the volume contract that is negotiated annually.

Mr. Lamoureux: Would the minister be prepared to provide a list of those individual companies that participate in just the volume contract? I would assume, for example, it would be quite different than the other list.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we can get some information for the member.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, the only other thing that I wanted to ask in this area was with respect to the Citizens' Inquiry line. If the minister could give some indication over the last year what sort of numbers we have had on it?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told that the unit responded to approximately 120,000 telephone inquiries in French or English on both federal and provincial government information through this Citizens' Inquiry Service.

Mr. Lamoureux: Is this line then for--the federal government also contributes to it?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.

Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister give some sort of an indication the general context, if you will, the top ten concerns that are being raised in the last year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I would think health, education, family services, justice, natural resources and highways would be amongst the top ten.

Mr. Lamoureux: Let me get a bit more of a specific example. We went from the one line of advertising, government says: Here we are; we are going to advertise educational reform. I will use educational reform. Do we get individuals that will respond to these sorts of advertising? Is that where we would get education complaints? Or when the minister refers to education, is it my son John was treated badly at school today, what can you do about it type thing?

I do not mean to sound facetious or to try to make light of any particular issue, but I would imagine--I am trying to get a better understanding in terms of the types of issues that are brought to the Citizens' Inquiry, their nature, and if there are some things that have come up more than others.

I would have anticipated, for example, that there would have been a lot of confusion with respect to Autopac because of the change in system and which manner of payments. So, if I ask the minister, how many Autopacs, like what sort of a breakdown is it, does the minister have access to a basic understanding in terms of how the citizenry, if you will, or what it is that is on the top of their minds? I think it is one of the vehicles that we could use to try to address concerns, and that is why I ask for the top ten. I do not know if there is a further breakdown of it, but I would think that this is something in which the minister would at least be wanting to know a bit more in depth.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it might be helpful to the honourable member to realize that this is the Citizens' Inquiry Services. It is not the citizens' complaint service, so that the vast majority of those calls are looking for direction. The Citizens' Inquiry is basically an answering service where somebody wants to know where to find something and Citizens' Inquiry directs them to that particular department or that particular unit in government. So to think of it only from the complaints point of view, that is a real minimum part of their duty.

It is people wanting to sort of access government. Most complaints go to MLAs or they go directly probably to that department where they should go, but there are many people who see government as some huge monolith that they just do not know where to start. You maybe come in the front door sometime and there is a directory and there are people standing there looking at it wondering who to go and see and what to do. Government is so large that people often do not know what branch or what department to make their inquiry of, so we have a partnership with the federal government here to offer this service on a bilingual basis to simply give people direction of where to phone and who to make that inquiry of, so it sort of I guess quarterbacks these inquiries and sends them to the appropriate department.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the response from the minister. I would still take it that they would have some sort of a general idea in terms of a breakdown and of the number of calls that they receive, and if he can provide that sort of information if it is not too inconvenient I would appreciate that.

I would, as I am sure the member for Point Douglas, like to be able to move on. Just one final question with respect to Archives, I mean the Legislative Library, it is more out of a sense of interest with respect to Hansard. Is there any consideration that the minister would be aware of in terms of trying to move Hansard onto, let us say, a ROM and providing that for the Legislative Library and possibly MLAs.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: All I can say is the communications in this world changes very rapidly, that we are always in discussion within the department on how to sort of modernize the information that we have. I know when we talked about the public libraries the other day, on Friday when we were in here, we talked about a lot of changes that are taking place there.

Certainly within the department we are looking at a number of changes and, as with everything, we have to do it on a cost-effective basis and be mindful of the fact that we are providing a service to the people and that communications these days are taking place sort of instantaneously and sometimes we need to upgrade and change and modernize as our finances will allow. For instance, the current Hansard publication, their work is now available on Internet.

Mr. Lamoureux: Just to conclude, whenever I go down to the Legislative Library there are just shelves and shelves of Hansard and I look at it in the sense that if you had these things on ROM discs that in fact it could probably be somewhat advantageous, whether it is members of the public or MLAs or space preservation, the volumes of Hansard that are produced. This is not necessarily the most appropriate time to talk. I could talk about it possibly at an LAMC meeting, if I could participate, or during the Legislative Assembly Estimates. So I just appreciate the comments from the minister and am prepared to pass on.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess these things line up in terms of priority of what we need to preserve in government and where we need to make our next expenditures. For people who have been in this building in the last week they wonder why government has never made the expenditure to make the air quality better in here, but it always gets weighed against wherever else you need to make those expenditures. I can tell you that the staff would be very much appreciative if we could redirect or acquire new funds to be completely up to date in the communications that come out of this building and of government, but I guess change will take place as resources are available and as technology changes. I am hopeful that we can do a little bit of that within our budget every year.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 3.(a) Client Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,949,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $348,500--pass; (3) Public Sector Advertising $2,384,100--pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($2,773,500)--pass.

3.(b) Business Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $950,600--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $836,700--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($260,300)--pass.

3.(c) Translation Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $968,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $422,000--pass.

3.(d) Provincial Archives (1) Salaries and Expenditures $1,649,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,468,100--pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($20,800)--pass.

3.(e) Legislative Library (1) Salaries and Expenditures $740,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $636,500--pass.

Resolution 14.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,300,500 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Information Services for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Item 4. Citizenship (a) Immigration Policy and Planning (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $356,200.

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I would like to spend a little bit of time in this section under the immigration policies and various planning stages of the government to see where they are at.

I have to state a few words here because I have a lot of questions in this area. If you look at the immigration policies that we are faced with in 1995, I think we are regressing. We are not able to promote adequate immigration for Manitoba, because when you hear a lot of individuals or some individuals speaking about immigration, they say, well, they are immigrants when they come to Canada or Manitoba. It is a more negative factor for some individuals. I totally disagree with that.

If you look at immigration, immigration has a net economic and a social benefit for our society by providing labour and investment, purchasing goods and services, attending our universities, stimulating job creation, and you just go on and on.

One of the real important aspects, I believe, for immigration for our province, Manitoba, is the whole emphasis of family reunification. I think that is a key. When we invite people from other countries to settle in Canada, or even to encourage them to settle in Canada, we can never lose the aspects of one day when a person becomes a citizen to be united with their families.

All we have to do is just look at ourselves and we know how important family is. We hear it every day. When people are discussing or talking, you know, everyone says how important to have the family unit, to be with the family. You have Father's Day we just celebrated, Mother's Day we just celebrated, and for a lot of the people we have encouraged or invited to our country, they would like to have their mothers and fathers with them, too.

Also, when you talk about families of immigrants, you look at the children. Where does the real education of the children come from when you look at people from other countries? Sure, some of it is able to be delivered by the parents, but when you look at family reunification and when you look at people coming into Canada, some of the individuals that have chosen our great province to be their new home, and you look at some of the employment opportunities that some people have to start off with, and whether it is a language barrier or qualifications barrier or accreditation barriers, you really need that extended family to assist the family to raise their children, to give them the values, to know and understand the culture of the individual and to continue to learn people's own language. Because I have heard people say, and I believe it strongly, that if you do not know yourself, how can you know others? That is so, so true.

When you look at, even in aboriginal communities now, we are going back to the elders teaching the children, introducing the teaching and the cultures to the schools. So Immigration has a huge role: to make sure that when we welcome immigrants to Canada, that we are doing it with the fullest assistance that is possible.

I will just read you a story that I picked up in the Toronto Globe and Mail. I think it tells it all, because when you look at people coming to settle to our country, we always look at, what are the qualifications? Does this person have the business qualifications? Is this person a doctor? Is this person an engineer? I think that is so wrong, to just look at only that aspect.

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This letter, that I was fortunate enough to come across, I think tells the whole story, why we as provinces, we as a country, and whoever is in power or whoever is in government has to encourage immigration, but at all levels, not only for the highly, highly skilled individuals.

I just want to read this letter here, because I think it is so important that we all start off understanding and appreciating what some individuals have gone through and how they are contributing to our great country that we call Canada.

It states here: Sometimes incongruities in the news are instructive. I read with interest your article about Canada's efforts to attract wealthy and highly skilled immigrants, as opposed to others who are deemed to be less qualified--and in the bracket it says, Canada strives to upscale immigrants, July 7. The assumption guiding this policy apparently is that immigrants with capital and/or with special skills are more likely than others to contribute to Canada's changing economy. The very next day, one of our local newspapers carried an article about one such less-qualified immigrant who came to Canada in 1957 with neither capital nor special skills and with nary a word of English. This man became a janitor at the University of Alberta and, after 38 years of cleaning university buildings, was happy to celebrate the graduation of his youngest two children from the university. Now, all of his 11 children--four engineers, three teachers, one accountant, one computer scientist, one animal nutritionist, one geophysicist--have graduated. Our economy and our community now have the benefit of their special skills.

It goes on: Incongruity between current federal immigration policy and the contributions of this immigrant and his family seem striking. Certainly, immigration policy should not be based on evidence alone. I do wonder, however, whether capital assets and currently marketable skills should be the primary variables to be considered when trying to assess a person's potential for contributing to Canadian society and also whether the income levels of recent immigrants should be the primary evidence of their contribution. The case of the university janitor illustrates the point. If we want an immigration policy that will be optimal in the long term, then we need to measure a diverse set of outcomes over the long term before attempting to judge the likely contributions and productivity of people who seek to live in Canada.

I think that really tells the whole story about immigration and the policies we are now facing today, which I see as being regressive and as going backwards.

When I was fortunate enough to attend a few mothers and fathers of the year awards in the Philippine community, and I was fortunate enough to be asked to be a judge in picking one of the candidates, we looked at all the qualifications that the individuals brought forward, and it was amazing. The qualifications that they had put forward were: how many children they had, what careers, what education their children had achieved. You look at some of the individuals, what careers that they participated in and the sacrifices they made to make sure that their children had the best education opportunities possible, and it was incredible.

Some families had eight children, some families had 10 children, some had 12 children. They were so proud when they said, my son or daughter graduated from high school, attended university and is now an engineer or lawyer or what have you. That was their achievement of their lifetime. That is important when you look at individuals that immigrate to, well, if you just kept it to Manitoba--when you look at the people, the individuals that immigrate here, you know, you see a lot of people say, well, a lot of people immigrate, and they come, and they go on social assistance. You know, it is only 1 percent of the total immigrants who are on social assistance, 1 percent. So that is the kind of stuff that I think we have to make sure that we pay very, very close attention to.

For instance, immigration to Manitoba has steadily declined over the last four years, and now reflects only 1.8 percent of Canada's immigration, instead of the 4 percent of Canada's total immigration to which Manitoba is entitled. We are entitled to 4 percent of the immigration population that comes to Canada. Yet we are down to 1.8. There is something wrong here. There is an imbalance, and I hope the government will look at that and correct that.

Then you go on and you look at the various promises that were made by different governments. In 1993, in the federal election, the Liberal Party promised to maintain a fair immigration policy, including immigration levels set at 1 percent of Canada's population annually, but we know that has not happened.

Also, the federal government promised a system that balances strong enforcement and fair and humanitarian and family values. But changes to Canada's immigration policy have been announced which will see the numbers of independent immigrants increased, while family reunification is curtailed through changes in categories of immigrants, making immigration levels well below the 1 percent of the population target.

When we stress family, what has happened to the family class? Immigrants will now face tougher criteria such as greater emphasis on English or French, and now there is even talk of a sponsorship bond, and I heard somewhere that they are looking at a neighbourhood of $10,000 for this bond. That is ludicrous. Where are you going to get $10,000 to place a bond to try and come to Canada because you want to have a new country to call your new home? Plus, application fees have gone up, and reductions in the number of family members who will be allowed into Canada, they are reducing that.

So I have some very interesting questions that I hope I will get answers to. When you look at what has happened federally, how is the Manitoba government assisting immigration to Manitobans for family reunification, to help individuals to bring their parents and their grandparents here? As I mentioned earlier, the people that immigrate to Manitoba, there is less than 1 percent on social assistance cases in Winnipeg alone.

In Manitoba, the federal and provincial governments are beginning talks that will form the basis of Manitoba's immigration policy for years to come, and that is that bilateral agreement. I hope that this government will include other individuals to hear some stories, and to ensure that experiences of immigrants are heard, some of the hardships, and some of the barriers, and how best we can assist the government to overcome some barriers that have been placed. But we hear very little about that, and it is a shame if these negotiations are going to be held behind closed doors between the federal and provincial governments. If we had some public hearings, or some consultations with some individual groups, or individual members, to have an input from the best experts that are out there, and that is the people that have immigrated to Manitoba, I am sure that they would be more than willing to advise or assist the government to, hopefully, change what I say are some wrongs and some unnecessary barriers that have been placed by the federal government.

The province is the government that has the chance to do something here because I do not know how far you are with your negotiations with the federal government, but I hope you will take that into consideration. The other day I found it very interesting when we were in Question Period, I think it was the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who was raising the question about fashion industry workers that why, with the vacancy or high need in Manitoba, we were not filling those jobs. I think there was some mention of openings or some jobs that were being unable to be filled.

I thought to myself, you know, in the past, a lot of those fashion industry jobs, yes, were filled through immigration, through our immigration policy. Then I spoke to some friends I had in various ethnic communities and I said, if a person immigrates from another country and takes a job in the fashion industry, what kind of salary are we looking at? Most of the response I got was, it would be starting at minimum wages, the very low end of the wage scale.

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So I started to calculate a little bit, and I looked at the cost just to immigrate here. The $975 fee came right out, and then the $100 right of citizenship and then the cost of $200--this is only for one adult; this is not even a family--for one adult for citizenship granting fees. Proof of citizenship fee went up to $60; retention of citizenship fee $60; reunification of citizenship fee $100; searching for citizenship records $100, and it says the new fees are on top of processing fees announced earlier, $500 each for adults and $100 each for dependents.

So my friends and I sat down, and they figured it would cost roughly around $2,000 to immigrate to Canada. That is sort of a ballpark figure that they had said.

If you look at some of the countries where normally or in the past we have recruited for fashion industry workers, that is about three, four years' salary in some of those countries. Then on top of that, now we are hearing about a $10,000 bond.

So if you look at the amount of money one would have to have to immigrate, say, from a country to Manitoba to fill one of those fashion industry jobs, and, say, if the starting salary was $5.50 an hour, and when you look at it, they would need to have worked 2,199 hours at 35 hours a week at $5.50 an hour. Sixty-three weeks they would have to work just to pay their way to come to Canada, if that $10,000 bond is required.

That is excluding what it would cost for your housing, your food cost, your clothing cost and entertainment. That is over and above. That is just to pay the cost to come here--63 weeks. That is over a year's salary without even having five cents to buy even a piece of food. So if you look at that, and the way my friends were explaining it, well, how are we encouraging people from different countries to come and fill the jobs that are required?

I would encourage and I would ask the minister if he will talk to the Immigration minister when you have your meetings, to say, look, these requirements that you are putting up we do not agree with. We do not agree with them, and it is stopping people from certain countries in making Manitoba their home.

If you look at these figures, Mr. Minister, would you agree that some of these policies that I have just stated are putting up unnecessary barriers to achieve our goal of immigration to Manitoba?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to respond to the issues that my honourable friend from Point Douglas has brought up. I think it is important at the beginning that we all accept and understand the responsibility of the two levels of government.

The federal government, the federal Liberal government in Ottawa, is the only level of government which sets rules about who can come into Canada and who cannot. The federal Liberal government makes the rules. They are the sole gatekeeper. They are the government that decides what immigration policy is. They decide the numbers that can come. They decide the cost of letting people into the country. They, in effect, have total and complete control of immigration to Canada, to Manitoba and all the other provinces and territories.

The role of the government of Manitoba is to assist those people once the federal Liberal government has allowed them into the country. We assist them with finding housing, language training, jobs, different kinds of training, albeit with some assistance from the federal government, although that too is dwindling and disappearing.

So with that background, I would like to proceed to respond to some of the comments that the member for Point Douglas has made, because the inconsistency that he sees between those wonderful red book promises and the policies that are now being adopted by Lloyd Axworthy and Prime Minister Chretien and Minister Marchi are certainly in conflict, certainly totally different than the promises made in that red book in 1993. It is not difficult to understand why the public is perplexed and why immigration groups are annoyed and why there is this tremendous misunderstanding of what it is to be a Canadian.

Canada, historically and traditionally, has welcomed people to its shores from all over the world. In fact, the United Nations has again said that we are the most favoured country in the world in which to live, and we have always accepted immigrants and refugees and welcomed them to Canada because there is a tremendous impact to many parts of our society, not just the economics of it, but the tradition and the history that my honourable friend has so eloquently talked about, particularly in the whole area of family reunification.

So it is with some degree of anger that I see the federal government saying one thing and doing another. I do not understand how these red book promises can be thrown aside and discarded the way they have been and these new policies brought in which are going to prevent immigrants from coming to Canada.

I would like to maybe just elaborate on some of them. I might say, I have tremendous admiration for one of the members of Parliament from Winnipeg here, Dr. Pagtakhan, who is fighting his government tooth and nail to say, listen, reconsider, this is wrong. I admire the courage that it must take for Dr. Pagtakhan to get up and criticize his government, particularly after we have seen other members fired from their duties, other members from Manitoba threatened, and the whip is being brought down on these Liberals who dare to be different, and an old, fine parliamentarian like Warren Allmand who was a minister in the Trudeau government who said, I cannot support this government, you are tearing this country apart with your new social policies, and I am glad that there are two members of Parliament from Manitoba who are prepared to stand up for what is right.

I certainly take my hat off to Dr. Pagtakhan who has seen the error of their ways and the foolishness around these new immigration policies, and I would hope that as a member of this--all of us as members of this Legislature can make our feelings about these immigration policies known to the federal government.

The member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) said he hopes when I meet with the federal minister, that I will be able to raise some of these issues. I have been trying to meet with him but to no avail. I have written him a number of letters to say, listen, we have to meet about these things. Manitoba wants to go ahead with an immigration agreement. We are being frustrated. We need to solve this blockage wherever it is, but after a number of letters, I still have not had the opportunity to meet with him.

In fact, the only comment that I saw him make about Manitoba was back in, was it late March or early April, that Manitoba was being unco-operative. Even that comment was in the news media. It was not made to my department or to me directly, and one would have to think that a member of the Crown would not be interjecting himself into a provincial election at that time, but it was just sort of bad timing on his part.

Anyway, to get to these policies that the member is talking about, the right-of-landing fee, and it is called ROLF by the bureaucrats, so if you hear that term, it is in reference to the right-of-landing fee. On February 28 of this year, the government of Canada introduced a right-of-landing fee of $975 now imposed on all immigrants over the age of 19.

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The member for Point Douglas has already gone into the detail of what a fee of this sort does to potential immigrants to Manitoba and to Canada. It is a tremendous detriment. Our government believes that it will negatively impact the family class sponsorships by decreasing our annual intake as well as placing undue hardships on sponsoring families in Manitoba, because as the member has indicated, in other parts of the world $975 Canadian is a lot of money, money that is made not in a year or two years, but maybe three or four or five years. One would have to wonder how when the red book says we are going to open our shores and our gates to immigrants because we want immigrants, that this cannot be viewed in any other way but a broken promise and a slap in the face for those families who want to bring other family members here to Canada, to Manitoba to join their families.

The application of this $975 per adult is required as the form is submitted to Citizenship and Immigration Canada by a mail-in process. Before you get to meet a real live person, you have to send that money away with your form. I might say that the Filipino community in particular has stated its opposition to this fee and this process and recommends that the fee not be required until the application is successful, that you pay the fee after you have been accepted, not as a right to put an application in. This fee is totally refundable when the application is refused, but it ties up that money for some long period of time and with no hope of success in some cases.

(Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

This is the same recommendation made for the general immigration processing fees, which is $500 per person. There is a difference, though. While the ROLF fee is refundable, this $500 per person processing fee is not. So if you have a family of four--and the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) articulated some of the large, large families that some immigrants have and bring to this country--you can imagine this fee for a family of four being $2000, and it is not refundable. Talk about a detriment to getting applications and getting people to come to our country, it seems to me like it is simply another roadblock that is being placed out there. It puts one's feeling about the federal government and the red book--we have to choose our words carefully I know--but it seems to me that they are being sort of factually incorrect when they change these policies from what they had printed.

We have raised our objections at the deputy minister's level and I have written to the federal minister indicating what our position is and how this will negatively impact the family class reunification here in Manitoba. We have raised this in our discussions at the federal-provincial level. This right-of-landing fee is a very, very negative initiative on the part of the federal Liberal government.

I might just turn my comments for a minute to the sponsorship bond. It appears that this is the other shoe falling. This is the next initiative. It was announced back in November that it was the federal government's direction to establish a financial guarantee for family class sponsorship. The federal government has continued to pursue this agenda. At a recent meeting of the highest officials in our department and Minister Marchi's department, it was brought forward by all provinces that we did not support this $10,000 bond.

We have asked Canada to see if they can explore some other options. This so-called bond is being put there because of what they call sponsorship default. In Manitoba the default rate is .4 of 1 percent. We are putting in place a bond of $10,000, which again, as my honourable friend for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) pointed out before, and I know that his colleagues would agree too, it is just a tremendous roadblock to bringing people into this country.

I question why the federal Liberal government would make national policy affecting Manitoba based on the perception that there may be a problem in Toronto. I dare say the responsibility of those 98 members of Parliament from Ontario is to be sure that they bring into the policy-making tent members of Parliament from Manitoba to see how they feel about it.

If there is a specific problem in Toronto, there must be another way to address it than to put a $10,000 bond into place which is going to affect all provinces, all territories, and so negatively impact on family class immigration where people want to reunite their families.

Again I repeat, and I know the member has taken note of this, that the default rate in Manitoba is .4 of 1 percent, just a minuscule number, just a minute number of people, and we in Manitoba do not see that as a problem. The flaw in this policymaking is to make national policy that affects all of us based on that one particular issue in Toronto.

We have done our own research. We have done our own work, and we have voiced strong objections to the federal government that this is not the way to increase immigration to Canada and to Manitoba. We are working with the federal government and trying to have them see the error of their ways.

We want to have more immigrants come to Manitoba. We are hopeful that Dr. Pagtakhan and other members of that Liberal caucus from Manitoba will be able to talk to Minister Marchi and have them rethink and reject those two policies on the bond and on the right-of-landing fee. I dare say they might even look at the processing fee and say, we can find other ways to do cost recovery than to put these hardships in the way of people who want to come to this country.

Many of us in this room, I am sure, are sons and daughters of immigrants or have perhaps immigrated to this country themselves. We know the hardships that people went through and the importance, as the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) said, of family reunification, where parents want their children to join them here in Canada or to bring their grandparents.

We have a number of proposals that I will get into in a minute, but it just seems that instead of working with the provinces to streamline a very slow and unresponsive system, instead of correcting the system that was there to make it more responsive, they are now putting financial impediments in there that people from many parts of the world have no hope of meeting. So I say, as the federal Liberal government gives lip service to wanting more immigration, their policies and their lack of responsiveness to streamlining the system would say otherwise and it just speaks volumes.

Now, the member also made a comment about setting Manitoba policy based on public input. I know that some members of the Legislature were aware, but we did have quite a good public consultation in the fall. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), one of his colleagues attended the meetings, and I am not sure if there was a member from the official opposition's caucus, but we had public meetings here in the city of Winnipeg, two of them which certainly--and I think if memory serves me correctly, some 650 applications were sent out to interested groups within the community to come forward and bring information to the Manitoba government to help us set our policy.

As well, I believe, there were meetings in other parts of the province where there were members from our staff including the assistant deputy minister who toured rural and northern Manitoba and spoke to over 25 groups about changes that the federal Liberal government were imposing as the sole gatekeeper for immigration in Canada.

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(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

This public consultation here in Winnipeg, the two meetings we had here and the 25 groups that we met with in rural Manitoba, brought forward tremendous ideas of how our department can be more responsive, how we can work with people, and they were very, very beneficial. So we have had some public consultation, and we welcome input from the public and immigration groups.

In fact I, personally, have met on a number of occasions with representatives from the international centre and the interfaith group about immigration, particularly about refugees. I think we have found ourselves in concert with them in condemning what the federal Liberal government has done in terms of these new policies.

We in Manitoba desperately want to up our immigration, and we have taken a very proactive stance towards that with the selling of Manitoba at our posts overseas. I tell you we are the first jurisdiction in Canada, and possible in North America, to use the Internet to attract people interested in immigrating. The information we have been able to distribute, through our more normal advertising channels and our Internet, has brought in hundreds and hundreds of requests. Some are quite active in wanting to come to Manitoba. After you get by a discussion about the weather, people are interested in jobs. They are interested in a country and a province where the streets are relatively safe, where the air and water are of good quality and where they can find jobs.

I know the member for Inkster was talking about the number of jobs available in Manitoba just last week and highlighting the tremendous economic development which has meant that there are jobs going unfilled. I tell you, the people we can get to fill those jobs are not going to be able to come because of the bond and because of the right-of-landing fee and because of the processing fee. I cannot believe the federal government and the minister would not see the error of his ways.

We have raised that with him in letters from myself to the minister and at the staff level and it would seem that the federal department is not of one mind here. In fact, I am told that some of the pronouncements by the minister caught his entire department by surprise. So we will continue to press the federal government to look at these issues, to rethink their policy that affects us and to find a way to solve the problems in southern Ontario without putting into place these fees that are just prohibitive.

With those few comments, I will maybe stop for another question.

Mr. Hickes: Mr. Chairperson, I have to totally agree with you when you look at the fees that are placed before individuals and some of the barriers--totally unfair barriers--that are placed before certain citizens of other certain countries. If you look at a person who is in a country where their wages are comparable to ours, a $975 fee and the processing fee and even the possibility of saving $10,000 to post a bond is there. A lot of those individuals who are from those countries, if they are making comparable wages to ours, I do not think a lot of them would want to move.

If you have individuals who are wanting to move to Canada to better their own lives, maybe because of overcrowding or possibility of war or the whole negative aspect that some individuals face in their countries, wanting to move to a more peaceful country like Canada, I think we have to make sure that door is always open for people to move.

So when you look at those kinds of different countries, I really believe that we have to make sure that the government in Manitoba does everything possible, that each and every 57 MLAs that are elected here in Manitoba of all political stripes stand up to the federal government and, hopefully, they will see their error in judgement.

You know, there are so many negative things that people say about immigration which are so totally false. I had someone try to tell me that but they were using the example of Toronto--they were saying, well, so many immigrants come to Canada and they get into all kinds of trouble and they are incarcerated and blah, blah, blah.

In my previous career, I used to look after training adult corrections officers in the Manitoba jails right across Manitoba that the province is responsible for. I used to have to go to the institutions, each and every one, at least once every six weeks. I can tell you there were very, very few immigrants who were incarcerated in those jails. So anybody that believes that is totally off the wall, because it is not true.

The whole role of immigration is all positive, and I am really glad to hear that you are going to--if you ever get that meeting with the federal minister--will state your opinion and stand up for our province, because I do not have to remind you, everyone knows that this province was built on immigration, and you are right. You just look around the room. At one time or another, each and every one, their families or themselves immigrated from another country. That is true. So when you look at our immigration policies--and we as a province, I am sure we have targets for the province. So when we have targets, I would like to ask the minister, when you do an assessment of skills needs for the province, is that related to the federal immigration government so that way when there is a skill shortage or need by the province that the government could say, yes, Manitoba is in need of say fashion industry workers so then we will help you recruit in that area. Is that how the process works?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that support from the honourable member and his endorsement of our direction we are taking, because I think we do need to work together on this and see if we cannot increase the immigration to Manitoba.

When immigrants are allowed into the country--and when we had more of them before all of these fees, it is the same as now--they go where they want to go. The federal government cannot steer them. They can steer refugees and say, would you take some refugees in Manitoba? We have always said we will do our share. For family-class immigrants, they tend to come where their family is, and for independence they will go where they want to go. Unfortunately, they migrate to Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

The one way that I think we can assist in bringing more immigrants to Canada is have the federal government recognize our labour shortages and recognize our labour needs. Unfortunately, they do not do that. I think the garment industry for instance and the fashion industry have been mentioned a couple of times as an area where there are jobs going wanting.

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We need to get the federal government to recognize the needs we have. At the current time I think it is safe to say that they are not recognizing them. If they would recognize that we have a need there and accept that and make it easier for those people to come into the country, knowing that they have a job when they get here, the kind of immigrants we want to fill the need here, we could perhaps dramatically increase immigration to Manitoba.

The federal government does not recognize our needs in that particular area and as a result are not--and we are not saying make some special case for these people, just accept the fact that there are jobs here and people that want to fill them and that they will fit through the process. At the present time, the government does their own labour market statistics. Given that we are only 4 percent of the population of Canada, this little picture in Manitoba does not get recognized. It is one small way that we have been trying to work with the federal government.

They asked us to come up with some suggestions on pilot projects. I think we have three. I will not go into the details of them just now but we can later if you want--three pilot projects where community groups have made suggestions to us and where we have responded to the federal bureaucracy. I have written to the minister and said, you asked us to come up with ideas and pilots; here they are. We are being blocked. They are not being accepted.

I will tell you, I have a very mild-mannered staff who normally do not get too upset about these things, but they are being very much frustrated by this blockage in the federal bureaucracy. Whether that is coming from the minister's office or not, I do not know. We want to work with them and co-operate with them, and we thought we were on a track to get an immigration agreement, but even when we come up with the pilot projects--I guess they have not said no; they just have not said yes. It is very, very frustrating.

Mr. Hickes: Mr. Chairperson, when you look at Manitoba and the whole immigration policy, we have very little input it seems on recruiting needs for the province. When you do your assessment of skill shortages or skill needs for the province, when you pass them on to the federal government who is responsible for immigration, they must do some kind of analysis to help you recruit in the skill shortage area, if you would not mind answering that.

The other thing I would like to get more information on are the three pilot projects, and then if you would add, what is the province doing to set up or is there an accreditation board set up to interview people coming to Canada with their certificates or degrees or needs?

Mr. Gilleshammer: You know another example in the garment workers, the industry has asked us to try and recruit 800 people as garment workers. The jobs are there, and we would love to go out and recruit them. Again, the federal government is not recognizing this as a need when they screen applicants in. Then without special consideration of our economic needs when they just go into the general pool of applicants then they are faced with the bond and with the other roadblocks that the federal government has put in there in terms of that sponsorship bond and the right-of-landing fee as well as the processing fee. If we could get a little bit of movement we could perhaps make some progress there.

The member also asks about a pilot project. We submitted a proposal from the Manitoba Ukrainian community. I guess I can go into a little bit of detail on this. We have had people from the Ukrainian community who are aging and whose families are not with them. They have some resources they have gathered over their period of time here. They are saying that they would like to sponsor relatives, at their cost, to bring relatives to Manitoba to live with them to keep them out of a personal care home, keep them out of expensive care, someone they can introduce into Canada and to Manitoba, to help them to find work and have their resources stay here in Manitoba after they pass from the scene rather than have them sent back to Europe. The member asked about community consultation. This is a project that came up from the community and said, you know, we have resources, we have no relatives immediate here--that we would like to bring from Ukraine. We will sponsor them. We will help them find work, get them settled.

It sounds like a great opportunity. We have put this forward as a pilot project, plus the wealth that they have accumulated, their life savings, their resources would stay here in Canada with these relatives. We have not been able to get the federal government to give an okay on this. This is the kind of project that we think the minister asked us to come forward with. It is very frustrating that we have not had a green light on this to be able to go ahead with it.

That is just another example of our frustrations where we think we have come up with suitable ideas, suitable pilot projects, good ideas that will benefit Manitoba, that will benefit Canada. These will be gainfully employed people, people who can be assimilated because they have relatives here with resources. It keeps these people out of more expensive care. They want to stay, just as my parents do, want to stay in their own home as long as they possibly can. Somebody with a similar background, language skills, other background, and we think it would be a great pilot for Manitoba. We are still waiting for the green light to go ahead with this.

Over on top of these sponsorship bonds and right-of-landing fees and other fees, when we have a good idea we are getting frustrated by not being able to pursue it. Certainly it would be an initiative targeted here to Manitoba, and we think that is what the federal minister asked us to do and the federal bureaucrats asked us for. We cannot understand why we cannot get approval for this.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The time being 6 p.m., I am interrupting the proceedings.

The Committee of Supply will resume consideration at 8 p.m. this evening.