6th-35th, Volume 13a - Private Members' Business

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour.

When this matter is again before the House, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable Leader of the official opposition.

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENT

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, if I may, during my nonpolitical statement, I had inadvertently missed names of the coaches and the players. If at this time I could get unanimous consent of the House, I would like to have Hansard install them in my statement after, and I will supply the list to Hansard.

Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Norbert have leave to revert to nonpolitical statement to add in some names--sir, that you inadvertently missed? Is there leave? [agreed]

Put them on the record, sir.

Mr. Laurendeau: With unanimous consent, Mr. Speaker, I would like to have Hansard install the names of the coaches and the players, and I will supply them with the list.

Mr. Speaker: Is that agreeable? Okay, that is agreed. Be deemed as read.

PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS

Res. 2--Provincial AIDS Strategy

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms.Barrett)

WHEREAS Manitoba is one of only two provinces without an AIDS Strategy; and

WHEREAS Health and Welfare Canada estimated that one in 1,000 people are HIV positive, and further estimates are that by the year 2000, one in four people living in the North will be infected; and

WHEREAS in 1990, two women in Manitoba were diagnosed HIV positive, but by June 1994 that number had increased to 30, which is a percentage increase of well over 1000 percent over four years; and

WHEREAS despite the rising number of AIDS cases in Manitoba, the number of Manitoba Health staff assigned to deal with AIDS has been reduced from the equivalent of five full-time positions in 1985 to a situation now where two physicians work on the issue part time; and

WHEREAS senior health officials have said that Manitoba's health system has been reduced to the point where "the Ministry of Health lacks the ability to deal with epidemics"; and

WHEREAS there are still widespread misconceptions about AIDS; and

WHEREAS these misconceptions about AIDS are damaging to affected groups and individuals, and hamper education and prevention initiatives by community groups that are currently under way; and

WHEREAS the financial costs associated with treatment for a person infected with HIV/AIDS from diagnosis to death have been estimated at $150,000, but some research estimates that the cost could be as high as $1 million for each person who dies as a result of contracting AIDS, when the economic and social costs are factored in; and

WHEREAS there are a number of issues which the Minister's Advisory Committee on AIDS has asked the minister to deal with, including street outreach to vulnerable populations; the impact of AIDS in aboriginal communities where numbers of infected individuals have been forecasted to reach epidemic proportions; and AIDS within the prison population; and

WHEREAS these issues cannot be adequately addressed without enhanced funding and staff resources; and

WHEREAS there is a strong public interest in developing and implementing an AIDS strategy for Manitoba immediately which deals with education and prevention, care and treatment and research.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the provincial government to consider developing an active partnership with the community to discuss and implement a three-pronged AIDS strategy immediately dealing with education and prevention, care and treatment, and research; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Assembly urge the provincial government to consider providing adequate funding and staff resources to fight this terrible disease in Manitoba.

Motion presented.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this is a fairly comprehensive resolution and it is necessary to be such because it is a very complicated and complex issue that we are discussing in this Chamber here today, and I do not believe that any individual in this Chamber is against in principle what we are discussing in this resolution because of the dramatic effect that this epidemic and this disease has had on the population of Manitoba and will continue to have in the future.

Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, Manitoba is only one of two provinces in this country that years after the scourge of this disease does not have a comprehensive policy. This is not surprising, given the government's lack of comprehensive policies in most areas of health care and the lack of co-ordination in most areas of health care and that this government does not have a good managerial record, a good administrative record, a good policy record in dealing with most health-related issues. It is not surprising that they continue not to have an AIDS policy when the rest of the country has moved far ahead in this development.

As I understand it, Mr. Speaker, there was a five-year plan for this province, and it is supposed to be a renewable five-year plan. I note that the round table AIDS group that the minister has recently probably made some progress finally, and we welcome that. We welcome any progress, not only in this area, but in all health related matters, but we understand that they have started to make some progress and we welcome that and we look forward strongly towards some positive announcements and developments in this regard.

But nonetheless, it still remains that we have had to bring resolutions, we have had to raise questions, and it is not just us in the Legislature, but groups outside of this Legislature have had to implore the government over and over and over again and consistently to develop a strategy, to do something.

Mr. Speaker, the question is: What should we be doing and what are our goals? It is not that complicated, basically, and I will just reiterate it because I think it is something that all of us can agree on.

First, we want to prevent the spread of the HIV virus through education, public awareness and any other information and other means. We want to provide appropriate care and support to persons living with HIV/AIDS. We want to eliminate the adverse social, health and personal impacts of this disease. We want to change public attitudes about HIV/AIDS and about those who are living with HIV/AIDS. We want to work towards developing an effective vaccine and a cure for HIV/AIDS, and we want to co-operate in addressing these and other challenges associated.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it is clear that this is not a Manitoba initiative alone. Certainly when you are talking about the research component and when you are talking about the disease vaccination or any other kind of medical technology involved or medical research, it is clear that it is not Manitoba alone, but we can be part of a large picture, and we are certainly part of a large picture in terms of the scourge as it affects Manitobans. I do not want to do this extensively throughout my comments, but I want to cite two chilling statistics that I think point to why we must move and why we can no longer afford to be without a strategy in this province.

Firstly, as was indicated in the resolution, Health and Welfare Canada estimates that by the year 2000 one in four people living in the North could be infected with this disease. Now, that is based on extrapolations of statistics, as I understand it, that deal with sexually transmitted diseases. But this is a horrific number, Mr. Speaker. This is absolutely horrific.

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Secondly, the other statistic that I want to cite is something which to me is equally horrific, that recently a study by the World Health Organization indicated that this disease is the leading cause of death amongst women of childbearing age in nine U.S. cities. This is also horrific, and this, if you think back to the early days of the epidemic, these were the kind of chilling statistics that were coming out and which many were saying, it cannot happen here and it will not affect us here. But it can happen here, and it is happening here, and I think we must bear in mind these statistics and these facts as we look towards a solution to this scourge.

What will be our focus, Mr. Speaker, in this province? We think we cannot ignore it, and I think it is recognized by all members of this Chamber that we can no longer ignore it. We on this side of the House have tried to be positive and tried to be creative by basically focusing on a resolution dealing with the three major areas that we can affect in Manitoba and by urging on the provincial government the will to try to address these three major areas as outlined in the resolution: firstly, education and prevention; secondly, care and treatment; and thirdly, research in this area.

Mr. Speaker, if wellness is a model and prevention is a model for the health care system in general then surely wellness and prevention ought to be the model on the front line in the attack against HIV and AIDS, Mr. Speaker. Surely this is where we must be intensifying our efforts.

Now I know that much has been done, but it is clear that there are aspects of education and aspects of prevention in which there are huge gaps, and it simply is not working. Now the minister has an advisory committee and I fully expect he is well acquainted with some of these issues, and we have all had opportunities to attend conferences and we have all had opportunities to attend functions where this issue was brought home to bear. But I am just going to reiterate briefly the fact that by June '94, this year, 15 people aged 19 and under had been tested positive for the virus. Now if we just look at that closely for a second, this is despite education programs in the schools, although those are sporadic and they do not totally cover everything. But for those who then say that there is enough and we are doing too much, or we are doing enough in this area, it is clear it is not happening. That is only the ones that have been positively diagnosed. Heavens knows, unfortunately, there are many who are infected who do not know about it.

So clearly at the school and the education system base level we must be doing a better job. I am not an expert. I have attended conferences where they have talked about it. The minister has access to that kind of information. We need a broader perspective; we need a probably more youth-orientated perspective; we need a more comprehensive approach to education.

Equally, in aboriginal communities despite the warnings of epidemics and in the north despite the warnings of epidemics, clearly the message is not getting through, and that again is part of what must be done at the community and local level in terms of education, prevention, something. We must branch out in some new areas, Mr. Speaker. We must branch out to try to deal with the preventative aspect of this and the education aspect of it far better.

Mr. Speaker, we urge flexibility in this area and we urge innovation in this area and we call upon the government to be cognizant of all of the aspects of AIDS education and all of the aspects of the communities that are affected and to deal with it in a comprehensive, flexible and innovative fashion to deal with all of the communities that are affected by this scourge, and if prevention and wellness mean anything, surely it means the prevention of disease. As the resolution points out, in financial costs, you cannot even compare the cost of prevention versus the cost of dealing with an infected person.

Heaven knows, we cannot even deal with the social and the personal aspects of what prevention and education can mean to disease. Further, there is the whole question of how many of our young people and how many of our most energetic people have fallen prey to this scourge, and so for all of those reasons, we ought to have a more comprehensive strategy dealing with AIDS.

Mr. Speaker, the second component of our resolution deals with care and treatment. There have been significant changes in this area in the past few years, not the least of which has been the fact that individuals infected with the virus are living longer and living more fuller lives after infection, but the serious gap between the diagnosis of the disease and the ultimate hospitalization of the disease, the gap in the continuum, continues and does not appear to be recognized within the health care system. We all know of the number of local organizations that provide service, that have been unable to receive funding and are doing it only on a voluntary basis. We have had debates in this Chamber about several of them that fill the gaps in that continuum and ought to be there.

Further, Mr. Speaker, this again is illustrative of perhaps a larger problem in health, and that is the lack of recognition of the continuum from that of hospitalization to that of diagnosis of any disease, but it is particularly acute in this area. If one talks to individuals who suffer or those who around them have suffered, it becomes fairly clear.

The other issue, I think, is the whole area of care and treatment, is dealing with palliative care. It is a larger issue again and simply the AIDS victim. It is an area of growing concern and importance in our health care system, and I recognize their studies. There are groups studying this, as well, in the department, but the fact is that I have heard enough stories to urge upon the minister and the government that they place more energy and more efforts in dealing with the palliative aspect of it.

It is quite simple. What we ask for AIDS patients we ask for all others in the health care field, as well, when it comes to chronic diseases that are terminal.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, in the area of research, I fully recognize that we in Manitoba are only a small part, important but small part, of a larger research community. It certainly is apparent that we are becoming a smaller part. Certainly, from the comments of officials at the recent inquiry, it appears that we are in some serious difficulty in dealing with epidemics of any kind. Members opposite often accuse us of spreading rumours and for raising unfounded fears, but when one looks at the testimony of individuals before that inquiry one has to be concerned about the ability of this province to deal with epidemics and to adequately deal with research. If you look at the comments of Sharon McDonald of the Greveller [phonetic] inquiry, and I quote: Our ability to respond to emergency situations has been significantly reduced.

She testified: unless there is some epidemiological system, the Minister of Health loses his ability to respond. I recognize that we are moving somewhat in that area, but we have cut back dramatically, Mr. Speaker. It is not me but the head of Cadham Provincial Laboratories who said: public health infrastructure needs to be supported if disease prevention is to be effective. And it was not me who said this, but it was the head of former Manitoba sexually-transmitted disease programs who said that budget cuts had left public health officials virtually unable to take initiative to prevent an epidemic. So it is clear to me and to others that we have not done enough in this area.

I see that my time is rapidly drawing to a close, and I urge all members of this House in terms of the goals, I think we can all agree on the goals and generally probably the methodology. There might be a difference in some political slant, but I sincerely believe that this is the kind of resolution that can very well meet with unanimous approval of all members of this Chamber.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, having listened to all of the comments of the honourable member for Kildonan and taking all of his comments in totality I am left with the feeling that the honourable member is quite sincere in the comments he makes today about this issue. I dare say when we have heard from all of the participants in this debate we will have the same impression about all of them. It is the kind of issue that cuts across all of the party lines.

(Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair)

There is probably no one in this House who does not have or did not have a relative or friend who was taken by cancer, and you know if what the honourable member says and what is laid out in his resolution is true, it will not be that many more years before the same thing will be said of HIV, and while I and perhaps my honourable friends know people who have been affected by this disease, not everybody does, and the time will come if present trends continue, when we will all know someone in that situation.

So the honourable member's resolution is important, and it would be important and timely at any time that we have the kind of threat that the information as laid out in the resolution is in existence. It is shocking to me to read some of these statistics, and I have not personally checked them out, but I have no reason to question the statistics laid out in the resolution, Mr. Acting Speaker, when it refers to such estimates as the one that says that one in a thousand people are HIV plus and that by the year 2000 one in four living in the North will be infected. That is a very sobering thought and extremely unsettling.

So, therefore, we are called to action. We are called to action not only by the honourable member's resolution, but the sentiments contained in the resolution are very much the same ones felt by people working for the Department of Health and with the Department of Health.

It is always a question, for some members, of funding. I respect that. I accept that. It is not new. The question that is debated more and more these days, Mr. Acting Speaker, is not how much, but how well, a very important consideration. If there is any issue that divides the parties in the House in this or any other debate I suggest it is that one. In recent years the demand is always for more spending and more and more spending. Instead of demanding, as oppositions should, I suggest that spending be carried out in a meaningful and effective manner, in such a way that outcomes are measured and evaluations are undertaken to ensure that spending is appropriately carried out and that results are achieved by virtue of that spending.

Mr. Acting Speaker, Manitoba is undertaking several projects that fall into the areas that have been identified as priorities. Some of these include seroprevalance study, HIV transfusion, recipient notification, revising legislation to make HIV reportable in a non-nominal fashion by a physician--it is currently reportable by laboratory only--integration of two street outreach programs, Street Station and Power, which will provide services to street people based on the needs of the individual. This involves a commitment of several government departments: Education and Training, Family Services, Justice, and Social Services.

The second phase of our strategy planning process will culminate in a provincial AIDS strategy, which is what is being asked for in the resolution. We have operated with a strategy and will do so again, as requested by the resolution.

Manitoba is currently in the process of developing a provincial AIDS strategy. On November 16 and 17 of this year, 40 participants with expertise in the prevention, care and treatment of HIV/AIDS and seven observers from provincial, federal and municipal governments came together to review the current needs and services available to persons infected or affected with HIV. A discussion paper will be produced and circulated to all stakeholders throughout the province. This consultative process will culminate in the development of a provincial AIDS strategy.

In 1992, Manitoba Health funded a three-year project to demonstrate the benefits of an integrated approach to providing outreach services to sex-trade workers. The success components of this project will be integrated with the existing outreach program targeting street youth to provide services to individuals based on their individual needs. Child and Family Services and city welfare have already committed to provide services. Negotiations with Justice and Education and Training are ongoing. This project will involve various levels of government and departments working together to reduce duplication and redirect resources to meet the needs of a high-risk population.

The needle exchange program and condom distribution program will be expanded, and the social programs will include access to abuse counselling, legal aid and education and counselling programs.

A seroprevalent study was begun in August of this year. The study is anonymous and unlinked and will provide valuable information regarding the prevalence of HIV in prenatal women and STD patients.

Manitoba Health, with the co-operation and assistance of other jurisdictions such as the Red Cross, Manitoba hospital organizations and Medical Services Branch, has launched the first phase of a major campaign to notify transfusion recipients of the possibility of having received blood between 1978 and 1985 which may have contained HIV. The first phase consists of a direct mail-out to primary care physicians and nurses alerting them of the need to discuss the issue with their patients and encourage counselling and testing. Prearranged media interviews with the Chief Medical Officer of Health will also alert the public. The second phase of the campaign planned for the early new year will consist of a direct mail-out to all householders in the province.

Mr. Acting Speaker, I am going to be proposing an amendment which I think turns this into something a little more positive, perhaps something we can all support. Before I do that, I would like to thank the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) for raising this important matter today and doing so in this Legislature. I also would like to thank all of those people who have been involved in advising government and care agencies about HIV/AIDS, advising us about how best we should proceed with the achievement of the goals set out for us and set out, as well, in the resolution proposed by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine),

THAT Resolution 2 be amended by deleting all the words and replacing them with the following:

WHEREAS the Round Table on AIDS was convened by Manitoba Health on November 16 and 17, bringing together 40 participants with knowledge and experience in the areas of prevention, care and treatment of HIV/AIDS; and

WHEREAS the purpose of the round table was to identify the needs of HIV-infected persons, review the current services and identify gaps in services; and

WHEREAS, as a result of the round table, a discussion paper will be produced and circulated to a broad cross-section of stakeholders for review and comment; and

WHEREAS the consultative process will culminate in a provincial AIDS strategy.

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba recognize and support the government as it continues its efforts to develop a provincial strategy on AIDS.

With that, I would ask honourable members for their support as we move forward in a positive way to deal with something that is a very, very serious matter indeed. Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. I would like to advise the House that I will be taking the amendment under advisement. At this time, the motion is still under debate.

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Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Acting Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure for me to speak on this particular resolution in which there has certainly been provided a lot of statistics.

I think that there would be very few of us in this House who would disagree with the THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED in regard to a three-pronged approach to an AIDS strategy here in this province of Manitoba. I was certainly pleased to see the way the resolution was laid out in terms of looking at that three-pronged strategy of education and prevention, care and treatment and research.

I listened with interest to the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), his comments, and to the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) speak about what the government has done in regard to an AIDS strategy here in Manitoba. I would like to add a few comments in regard to AIDS strategy and specifically refer to the three-pronged approach and perhaps talk about where I see that we are at in this province in regard to the AIDS strategy.

First of all, Mr. Acting Speaker, I think it is very important to note that in the area of education and prevention, and I recall reading actually this afternoon the recent Prairie Medical Journal I believe it was, and I was reading an article by Dr. Margaret Fast and the article was on AIDS, the first decade in Manitoba. It is quite apropos that I happened to be reading that this afternoon. She talked about some of the things that had happened over the last 10 years here in Manitoba.

She talked about the importance of looking at education and prevention and care and treatment and really taking those two areas and having a collaborative approach that you cannot simply do education and prevention alone and you cannot certainly deal with care and treatment on its own, that there must be a collaborative approach and it must be at least two-pronged. She indicated as well that in her experience in the last number of years in working for the Department of Health she felt that the collaborative approach had worked.

I would certainly like to say that as I look at the throne speech and some of the things that have been mentioned in Health, and I am going by memory here, I am not sure there was a mention of AIDS strategy, but I am hopeful that from the minister's comments this afternoon as he referred to the recent November conference that talked about an AIDS strategy that we will see something coming forth very, very soon. I think it is going to be very important that education and prevention in the area of AIDS be paramount.

When we look at the amount of government dollars that are spent in the area of wellness, health promotion, healthy public policy, it does not matter which government of the day is in power or in which particular province, I think we will see across the board in Canada and even federal governments that in fact too few dollars are spent in the area of wellness and health promotion. I noted from reading the report of the government's that in '88-89 there was some 0.34 percent spent on the whole area of prevention. That is not even close to 1 percent; that is not even close to 3 percent; it is not close to the 5 percent that the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses has suggested in their recent paper.

When we look at the area of wellness and when we are looking at the area of prevention, and in this case we are talking about an AIDS strategy, I think it is very important that we recognize if we are really going to work on education and prevention, there have to be the funds attached to it. That does not mean to say that there is going to be new dollars allocated, but what it means is there is going to have to be a reprioritization of those dollars within the Department of Health.

I would hope that the school system is certainly the beginning place where we can have education and prevention as far as HIV virus. I know that in most of the school divisions, there have been some prevention programs and education programs talking about HIV. There are a few school divisions who believe that in fact that should not be taught, and I would hope that we would move towards a system in Manitoba where all children have the opportunity to actually have education in the area of HIV and AIDS. I think that is very, very important, that we start that at the school level.

As well, I know that the government in Manitoba has been working with organizations and groups in the gay and lesbian community to actually educate members of their groups in regard to HIV prevention. I think that is important as well, and that is certainly a very important part of an education prevention program.

I had some very interesting meetings with the Village Clinic organization a couple of months ago, and I know that they are seeing some changes within their organization as they perhaps move away from an organization which deals specifically with HIV individuals and their families. I would understand that the government has suggested to them that they should be moving towards being a geographically-based community clinic and that they should be providing outreach services in a whole variety of areas to a wider population than whom they currently serve.

Although the Village Clinic does not have a problem with expanding their services, what they are afraid of and what they are concerned about is that in fact if they move towards that broader community-based primary care providing services, are they in fact going to lose the resources that they have now dedicated and the dollars they have now dedicated to providing assistance to HIV individuals and their families. That is certainly a concern of the Village Clinic.

I would say as the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has an opportunity to hear these remarks that I think it is very important that we allow an organization such as the Village Clinic to retain its ability to provide services for HIV individuals and families and that it is going to be very important that they be supported as an organization by government to continue to do that type of work. Not only do they provide some education and prevention, but they also assist in care and treatment as well and in fact in the past have had physicians who are dedicated to servicing people who have HIV and that has been important as well that that service be made available.

Other organizations that are in the community--and I think while we are talking about a provincial AIDS strategy, it is going to be important that the government recognize the various kinds of nongovernmental organizations that are there to provide a service whether it is in the area of education and prevention or the care and the treatment.

That reminds me of one of the organizations again who has done a tremendous amount of work in the city of Winnipeg for HIV patients and their families, and that is the Kali Shiva organization. Again, this is an organization that with a very small amount of dollars--I believe their budget is basically for one part-time paid staff person to co-ordinate a group of volunteers--this organization has a volunteer service, has individuals who are there to assist HIV individuals and their families, and that assistance is in the area of support and encouragement for individuals. It is in the form of providing assistance in some of the daily basic living requirements, whether it is buying groceries, whether it is cooking meals, whether it is doing housekeeping--these kinds of activities which in fact some of these individuals who are living with AIDS in the community have difficulty in doing. Their energy is depleted, so there are volunteers who actually go into the homes and who actually provide that kind of care and service.

I think this is an example of an organization that with a very small amount of dollars, $30,000 or $40,000, can provide services to 20, 40, 50 people a year and provide a very high quality of service. When the government is looking at a three-pronged AIDS strategy, to look at some of these organizations and determine what services they are providing and what services should be expanded, I think this is going to be very important.

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As the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has said, I am a little concerned that we have not seen as yet an AIDS strategy in print. We have had the Premier (Mr. Filmon) who actually headed an AIDS strategy round table in November. This is seven years after the fact that this particular government has come into power. We would hope again that we are going to see something that is in black and white, an AIDS strategy that is not only in a written form but in fact has some steps for implementation so that there will be something that will be implemented in this province.

I think that it is going to be very important that any type of three-pronged AIDS strategy as well also deal with not just the Department of Health but some of the other departments as well within the government, such as Education and such as Justice and

Family Services. Again, I noted that when Dr. Fast spoke about the first decade in Manitoba in regards to AIDS and HIV, she mentioned that there had been a working relationship amongst Justice and Education and the Department of Family Services and how important that was that there be that working relationship.

Again she indicated that in many other provinces there is not that relationship, so just to move ahead and actually provide some services in the area of AIDS and AIDS education has been very, very difficult.

I would encourage the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), prompted by this resolution which has been put forth by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that we actually get a time line for when we are going to see a provincial AIDS strategy and that organizations and groups who are involved with this particular disease have an opportunity to be part of the strategy as it is developed and have an opportunity also to make changes and to make suggestions as to the refinement of such a strategy.

This is a final comment in terms of the third prong of the strategy which the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) mentioned. He talked about the need for research. He is correct in saying that research dollars are always limited. It is always difficult to know where we are going to put our money in terms of any kind of research, particularly into the multiple diseases that afflict members of our society. There is no question that if we are dealing with education and prevention, and care and treatment, research has to be that third component.

Again, I would encourage the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to encourage his department and to encourage the dollars that are available to support any type of research that is done in the area of AIDS and in fact, where there are research dollars that are available through federal grants, that he encourage the federal government as well. Certainly I, as an individual, would encourage them, as well, to look at dollars for research. I think it is something that all three parties can do in this House on a nonpartisan basis.

I would like to close my remarks, again, by saying that we certainly support this particular resolution. It is a very well-thought-out resolution, a very comprehensive resolution. I think the fact that it is asking for a three-pronged provincial strategy--and whether there is agreement between the government and opposition as to where in the process that strategy is, I think we can all agree, however, that the idea of having and wanting a provincial strategy is the key emphasis of this particular resolution. It is very much supportable, and there is no reason why all members of this House should not join in supporting this resolution today. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): What is the will of the House? [interjection]

We cannot have a question. I have it under advisement at this time. Until such time as I have brought a ruling, we cannot vote on the motion.

Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Acting Speaker, I am pleased to stand and speak on the resolution put forward by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

I do commend him for his interest and his approach to humankind and what he is attempting to achieve by presenting this resolution. I do have some concerns for some of the things that are outlined in the resolution.

One thing that is not spelled out specifically, which I will get to is--but I think that he has taken some things into consideration with regard to the education and prevention. I certainly agree with that aspect of it--and the care and the treatment.

Certainly those people who are stricken with any disease or imbalance, as I more understand it, rather than disease--I look on these as an imbalance of a body system.

It is something that we in the western world have to take into consideration when we are talking about one's health. I think that one of the things that we must look at is not just the symptom or that aspect of it, but I think we must look at the whole picture. In the whole picture, it comes back to the type of people who contract AIDS, on the people, other than through transfusions, or are subjected to--and I am not saying that everybody is willing or unwilling in terms of how they contract AIDS--but I think that we have to be conscious of what we are going to do.

Certainly, we can look at the picture from the education and the prevention, and in order to prevent a situation of AIDS or something like this, I think that we have to be able to educate these people so that they maybe will not be subjected to getting that disease. I think that if we educate these people and show them the way that they should be living and doing certain things, I think that it is not necessarily that they are going to listen to us.

We can paint the situation even with our own children. We tell our children and ask our children to do certain things, and they will not do that. When we look at those people who are contracting AIDS, in many cases are people who are using drugs, putting themselves into precarious positions and weakening their bodies to the point that they are more susceptible to getting that.

(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)

One thing that the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak)--and I know he has an understanding of this--and I am surprised that he has not included this, is the matter of nutrition. You know, we can do all these things, but if we do not nourish our bodies to the point that they are strong enough to be able to deal with this, instead of weakening our bodies, then this is what happens in many cases where people are in a weakened state and are exposed to a situation like this and eventually will end up in the case having AIDS.

Now, if we are looking at, as outlined in the resolution, one in four by the year 2000 in the North will have AIDS, and that is a scary thought, but what are we going to do about that in terms of educating people or dealing with the idea of prevention?

Most certainly, we can tell these people--and, you know, the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) suggested education in the schools, and that has been going on. That has been going on for a long time. But the people do not seem to be listening. The young people, I would not say that all of them are that way, but a lot of them still live a precarious life, and those are the ones often who will end up with the AIDS virus.

Prevention and consultation are the components that I think certainly are an important aspect of how we have to deal with this, but I think that we also have to understand, instead of treating the disease, how the body is capable of doing a lot of these things itself.

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The body does not know, as an example, that you have AIDS, or it does not make any difference that you have AIDS. The body knows that there is an imbalance there and there is a weakness there, and it cannot deal with it, but if the body was nourished properly and got the proper nutrition, maybe it could be dealt with. Nowhere in this resolution or nowhere have I heard where nutrition has been a major component in this whole aspect of dealing with disease.

When we talk about nutrition, I was alarmed a few years ago when I was on the drug, alcohol and substance abuse task force, travelling the province, when a member of the medical profession made a presentation to us, and he indicated that the medical profession or the universities were trying to increase the level of instruction to their medical students to 15 hours.

So if we are going to achieve a goal in dealing with this, how are we going to be able to deal with this when the medical profession does not have an appreciation or an understanding for nutrition, and how are we going to be able to deal with this when they are looking at it from the matter of the medical profession? They are the people who are guiding us through this whole process, because they are the people who supposedly understand sickness. They are the highest authority when it comes to that. But how do we deal with that when they do not understand nutrition, and the only thing that they do understand is medicine and drugs?

Let us look at the aspect of, when you take drugs in crisis situations, yes, that is understandable. They have to be used, but when you do take a drug, it is taking the place of what the body is capable of doing in the first place, and as you take that, if the body is capable of doing that and providing that, then are we not weakening our bodies? Are we not weakening our systems, because by doing that, as an example, if a person, a totally healthy person was to have insulin injected into their bodies, they would become a diabetic, because the body will take the least line of resistance, or the least effort in terms of dealing with that situation. If it only has to do so much, that is all it is going to do. Consequently, if people rely on the drugs, then they are going to end up getting sicker. You know, I think that society generally--I think as far as society is concerned, Mr. Speaker, most people, instead of taking responsibilities for their own health, when they get sick, what do they do? They go to the doctor. You know, they do not think of going anywhere else. They do not think of taking responsibility for their own health.

I mean there is the matter of prevention. There is the matter of dealing with these situations and taking--you know, you take an antibiotic. So you go to the doctor and he gives you an antibiotic. What you have done is you have turned the responsibility of your own health over to a medical doctor. Now, is that right? Maybe in crisis situations it is, but is it in fact a crisis situation? I think that we have to take that responsibility in terms of dealing with whatever disease we have, whatever imbalance we have, but we can only do that through nutrition because, if you look at it from the aspect of substituting drugs for what nutrition is capable of doing, then you are no different than a person who is taking hormonal injections or taking drugs as a form of substitution. In terms of dealing with your health, it is no different. AIDS is no different. [interjection]

The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says, what about AIDS? Do you think your body understands whether you have AIDS or whether you have diabetes or whether you have cancer? Does your body know that? Your body knows that there is an imbalance. That is all your body knows. There is an imbalance in your body, and if you substitute for what your body is capable of doing, then you are weakening your system, you are weakening your body. You obviously have missed the point in terms of if a person--and I will go through this very slowly again. I will use the illustration that if a totally healthy person, like the member for Inkster, as an example, is injected with insulin into the body for a long period of time, the member for Inkster will become a diabetic.

An Honourable Member: What about the AIDS virus? What if he had injections from the AIDS virus?

Mr. McAlpine: The same thing. If your body is able to cope with that--we do not know whether--they are still working on the research on this. What do they do when they do research? When they do the scientific research, they break everything down to the smallest element. When they break everything down to the smallest element, if you use nutrition as a form of research, when you break it down it destroys the natural component of that nutrition. So there is no scientific proof.

That is the only thing that we can actually judge in this form in society today, because the medical model, they are the highest authority. If they are the highest authority, then where are we going to go? A medical doctor cannot prescribe nutrition as a form of therapy. I think there is something wrong with that, because we are only getting part of the equation. I think that we need the entire equation in order to put this all together.

So when I talk about the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) talking about prevention and education, and I see research as another form here, but what research are we talking about? Are we talking about scientific research or are we talking about research with all aspects of dealing with this?

Mr. Speaker, I think that the resolution must also include the nutritional component of this whole picture. If you are going to deal with this and if we really truly want to address this situation, then we have to be able to explain to people that they have to take this whole thing into consideration. There are things to deal with the responsibility. Maybe they are going to have to give up what they consider the good life in terms of what they are dealing with, in terms of taking drugs and weakening their bodies and taking antibiotics that weaken our body system to the point that we become sicker and sicker.

I have often said that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), I do not consider him the Minister of Health. He is more the minister of sickness than Minister of Health, because we are not creating health. We are not creating health in society today. I really have some serious difficulty with that.

So what are we going to do? Are we going to create another epidemic with AIDS? We have an epidemic with cancer, and what are we going to do? We throw more money into it, the billions and billions of dollars that have been thrown into this. I have read and I consider where I have read a fairly reliable source in respect to cancer. I do not think AIDS is any different really. [interjection] The member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) says AIDS and cancer, what is the difference? Well, the body does not know any difference either because the body knows it is an imbalance. Do you think the body knows when you have cancer--yes, I have cancer? I do not think so. No, we are not talking about vitamins. Vitamins--[interjection] Because you do not understand nutrition. I am talking about whole food nutrition. I am not talking about isolated chemicals that you are talking about.

Point of Order

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On a point of order, I know the member is speaking on the congratulatory amendment made by the Minister of Health, but I wonder if it is relevant to talk about nutrition in terms of the AIDS resolution and known causes of AIDS.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised, I believe the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek was keeping his remarks relevant to the said resolution. It is the resolution, sir, by the way, that we are debating, not the amendment, the resolution.

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Mr. McAlpine: Mr. Speaker, if I could have my light on here.

Mr. Speaker: Your mike is on.

Mr. McAlpine: It is on now, yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am surprised at the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). He obviously does not understand what I am talking about--

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired exactly at six o'clock.

The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair with the understanding that the House will reconvene at 8 p.m.