LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Thursday, June 18, 1992
After Recess
The
committee resumed at 9 a.m.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent Sections)
CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Jack Penner): Good morning. Will the
Committee of Supply please come to order.
The committee will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the
Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
When the committee last sat, it had been
considering item 4. Citizenship (a) Immigration Policy and Planning: (1) Salaries $367,800, on page 33.
Ms.
Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): We were discussing
immigration agreements and immigration the other day. I think I would like to start off in a
related area and find out what is happening with the Immigrant Credentials
program.
Hon.
Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): As
a result of the report that was tabled, the working group on Immigrant
Credentials report, we have restructured our Citizenship branch to attempt to
meet the needs of the diverse areas that we serve through that branch.
One of them, of course, is to look at credentials
in a very proactive way. I think that
happened extremely quickly after the report was released. We have now established the Immigrant
Credentials and Labour Market Branch within the division.
This branch is mandated to assist immigrants
who have credentials earned in other countries, recognized in
Ms.
Cerilli: Sure, I am particularly interested in knowing
how the priorities are being arranged.
The report pointed to need for improvements in such a wide variety of
areas, education, language training, programs to subsidize training, the trades
professional organizations, the educational institutions. How are you sorting through all that, and
what kind of priorities are you setting?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I am informed that staff have been meeting
with professional organizations to try to determine how we can best work
together to ensure that those who are seeking credentials in those professions
can be accommodated.
We are also working with the designated
occupation lists, trying to identify the skill shortages and then work with
communities to see where we can recruit people to fill the skill shortages that
are presently existing in our province.
Ms.
Cerilli: I want to focus specifically on the
accreditation, the credentials approval program. I am assuming that it is Mr. Mehzenta, who is
here, who is responsible for that. That is
one of the questions that I was going to ask:
Who is responsible for following up on this report that the government
has? Maybe start off by talking about
the objectives that employee has, that staff person has set for the next year
or so.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, Mr. Mehzenta is working on an acting
basis as the director. There is a
competition underway right at this moment, and we should have, in the very near
future, finished that competitive process and hired a permanent director. There are also six staff working in the
branch. The things that are ongoing
right now‑‑and maybe I can indicate that work has been started in
12 different areas of the recommendations‑‑some progress has been
made on eight of them, and there are still some long‑term recommendations
that will have to be dealt with. Many of
the recommendations do have implications for other departments and we could go
through some of those.
Ms.
Cerilli: This is one of the key areas of concern, so I
would like to spend some time here and go into some detail with finding out
what the objectives are, what the target areas are and what is being
accomplished in those areas?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: We have, within the branch, begun the
implementation of the central clearing house and network database that needs to
be put into place to‑‑Do you want to deal with each one of these at
a time, ask some more specific questions or direct questions?
Ms.
Cerilli: Yes, I would.
Just to break down further, besides give me some more detail as to what
has been accomplished in the way of establishing the clearing house, especially
I think you already mentioned the database.
What kind of target dates are we looking at, and what are the targets?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I am informed that we have been working with
international organizations. We have
been looking at our own target base and trying to get that implemented into the
database. We hope that by October we
should have the first phase of that implemented. In the meantime, also, we are looking at
international systems to see what might be out there, because, in fact, we do
not want to duplicate anything that might presently exist.
Ms.
Cerilli: So what does phase one include?
* (0910)
Mrs.
Mitchelson: That includes anyone who is presently on our
designated occupation list and any others whom we feel are of high priority
areas that we have been able to work in.
I believe engineering is one of those, physiotherapy, accountants and
occupational therapists. Those are some
of the priorities.
Ms.
Cerilli: So the idea would be to gather the
requirements from foreign universities and colleges training in a database so
that it could be compared to the standards that are established in
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, that will be to establish equitability,
to establish further training that might be required to be credentialized here.
Ms.
Cerilli: By October, we hope to have a system in
place, a database in place so that those occupations you mentioned,
engineering, physiotherapy, the others, from a designated list, people with
credentials in those areas would be able to go to the office that you have set
up and have their credentials evaluated.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: And also know what the requirements are to be
accredited here.
Ms.
Cerilli: What was the basis‑‑read for me
again the occupations other than those in the designated list and explain to me
the rationale for selecting those occupations first.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, do you want me
to go through the list again? Okay, it
is engineers, accountants, physiotherapists, occupational therapists,
radiotherapists. Those are the areas
that, in fact, we have most success with the professions and the professional
organizations.
I think we indicated, when the report was
first released, what our reaction was going to be to that report, that there
were some professions and professional organizations that were more willing to
co‑operate than others in this process.
Rather than being somewhat heavy‑handed, I think it is important
that we work with those who feel they want to work with us to establish some
positive results in some areas.
I think one of the difficulties in getting
this process underway initially and why it took so many years, and I know it
was a problem for the former administration also, because I think back since
1982‑1983 the communities and those who were having difficulty obtaining
credentials here in our province expressed a desire to get something going and
something moving‑‑it is an overwhelming job trying to work in every
direction.
I think when we first started to look at this,
we decided and determined that we would work with those organizations that we
had a good relationship with and had started to develop good communication with
and try to do one occupation at a time, and work from the successes. I think it is one step at a time, and we will
continue to work and proactively seek those that are willing to work with us.
* (0915)
Ms.
Cerilli: I appreciate that the minister is taking the
path of least resistance, which in some ways makes it easier for the
government, but not easiest for those in the province with foreign credentials
because, obviously, those professions that are least willing to co‑operate
are going to be least willing to co‑operate with individuals with foreign
credentials.
I would ask, in contact with any of the
ethnocultural community groups or the immigrant professional association, if
they have indicated a list of priorities for what professions they would like
to see the government move on and if that is in conflict or coincides with the
list that the minister is following?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Accountants and engineers are in the largest
group so those are the areas where we have seen some positive movement and some
co‑operation. Those are the areas
of greatest need and priority in some instances. We have made some inroads with the medical
profession. That one is a little more
difficult. Co‑operation, rather
than confrontation, I think, is the way to make this happen.
As I indicated, we want to build upon our
successes, and as we make progress and have success with certain professional
organizations. then we will have developed, or established, a way of attempting
to deal with those that are more difficult.
If we, as I said, take a heavy‑handed approach, we are never going
to accomplish anything.
Ms.
Cerilli: I am particularly interested in the
engineering profession. What has the
professional organization changed in the way of evaluating credentials, and changed
so that this process is going to work?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is my understanding that they have been
extremely co‑operative and they are looking at different language tests
that they might be able to use to accredit; they are looking at ways to accommodate
experience, and routes for ways of accommodating special access. They are one professional organization that
has taken a very positive approach and wanting to work very co‑operatively
and expeditiously to try to get those with qualifications credentialized here.
Ms.
Cerilli: How about with streamlining the process for
how the credentials are reviewed by the board for the engineers
association. I know that there were some
problems in that profession with the timing, that they only did it once a year,
usually in the spring and if you were not considered, you had to wait until the
following year to have another chance to have your credentials reviewed. Those kinds of systemic barriers, are they
being looked after?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Those engineers who are seeking accreditation
here in the province have just provided a list of recommendations on how things
might be changed and things might be streamlined. Those have been presented to
the department and the department will be meeting with the professional
organization to go through those recommendations and see how things can be
accommodated and changed.
Ms.
Cerilli: Which group developed those recommendations?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is the engineers who are seeking
accreditation. So it is the people who
are not accredited yet to work in that profession.
Ms.
Cerilli: Are they affiliated with the immigrant
professional association?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, they are.
* (0920)
Ms.
Cerilli: Good.
Well, I am encouraged by what I am hearing so far.
One of the things that is not part of the
report, I do not think, is specific examples from the surveys with the
professional and trade organizations of some of the barriers. Does the minister
have information about that? Why was
that not included in the report?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: In the executive summary of the report‑‑it
was tabled‑‑we do have a list of the global barriers, the specific
barriers, in fact. I guess it was a
decision of the working group on immigrant credentials that the specific
barriers not be included. That was their
decision. What has happened as a result
is that we are reviewing all of the information and we will be dealing with all
of the different professionals, those who are not accredited and the
organizations on specific barriers.
Ms.
Cerilli: I do not know if you will tell me why that
was not included. A number of people
have asked me about that, or mentioned that to me, that they thought that was a
glaring omission for a report like this.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I am informed that it was the steering
committee on the working group, and I cannot tell you why that decision was
made. It was their decision that they
would go with the global barriers and not put specific barriers in, but at a
higher level look at what the barriers were.
Ms.
Cerilli: Would the minister be willing to share that
list with me, if there has been a list compiled of the specific barriers?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: As we compile them, certainly we will share
them.
Ms.
Cerilli: Well, there must have been a list compiled if
you listed the global barriers. These
are the kinds of issues that people in the community want dealt with. They are interested in having, as a priority,
the professional organizations, trades organizations. Those are the barriers they want addressed.
Those are the ones that really block their access and include a lot of the kind
of systemic discrimination that we are trying to eliminate.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that is
exactly what is happening in the engineering profession. We are meeting with those, and it is on an
individual basis. Those who are
attempting to be accredited are presenting recommendations on how those
barriers can be broken down and how things can be done more expeditiously. Then we are working with the professional
organization to attempt to address those issues, bringing them forward and
trying to work them through to see whether there cannot be accommodation.
So the specific barriers that exist in the
engineering profession at this point in time are being dealt with. We will work on different professions, with
different professional organizations, as a result of what those specific people
tell us appear to be the barriers.
Ms.
Cerilli: The specific barriers or these general
barriers that have been listed in the report for the professional trades
organization, is that one of the 12 targeted areas that have been identified by
this program?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Absolutely, and that is where we have
started.
Ms.
Cerilli: Can we move then to that objective for the
program and maybe give me some more detail about what other initiatives are
going on with that area?
* (0925)
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, another one of
the recommendations that is already started on is that CSEN be headed by an
executive director‑‑and that was CSEN.
We have not put in place CSEN. This is our data bank that we are looking
at. It is not called CSEN. It is called Immigrant Credentials and Labour
Market Branch of the division, instead of CSEN.
It was a recommendation by the working group, but we have determined
that we would call it Immigrant Credentials and Labour Market Branch, which
would be developing the database.
It is recommended that that "be headed by
an Executive Director and that it be established as a branch within the
Citizenship Division of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship,
and that a system be put in place whereby . . . the Departments of Education
and Training, Labour and the Multiculturalism Secretariat can work closely
together in a complementary fashion as members of joint planning and policy
committees." That was one of the
recommendations that came out of the report.
An interdepartmental working group has been
established as a result of that.
Ms.
Cerilli: I am not sure if I am following. We are talking about professional trade
organizations, and you have set up a working group in the division‑‑another
working group?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: The recommendation was that it be an
interdepartmental group within government with the departments that are
affected by training, and that is Labour and Education, and the
Multiculturalism Secretariat, along with the Citizenship Division.
So that interdepartmental working group has
been established and is working.
Ms.
Cerilli: So what are they doing? Specifically, applying to professional trades
organizations that review credentials, screening applicants for licences and
professions, how are they addressing that?
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): The honourable Minister
of‑‑oh, I saw Highways, I am sorry‑‑Culture, Heritage
and Citizenship.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, if I could
just comment, it has always been a great desire of mine to be the Minister of
Highways.
What the interdepartmental working group is
doing is determining and making recommendations on who should sit on the
advisory board. That was one of the
other recommendations, was the establishment of an advisory board.
* (0930)
The Apprenticeship Branch is working at how
things can be streamlined to look at occupations and the barriers that do
exist, and streamline that process in the Apprenticeship Branch of the
Department of Labour. The Department of
Education is looking at training that might be able to fill the gaps to provide
some of the training that is needed to bring people up to speed here and help
them to access accreditation.
Ms.
Cerilli: Is that happening only for those occupations
that you have listed, or from the other ones that are on the list?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is happening in all areas. In some areas, as I have indicated, we have
made more progress, but it is working in all areas. It is the Apprenticeship Branch that deals
with the trades more than the professions.
Ms.
Cerilli: What I am specifically trying to determine is
if other professional and trade organizations are being dealt with by this
committee, this working group, other than those on the list that we were
discussing earlier with engineering and accounting and the designated
occupations, if you are dealing with these 12 objectives only on those areas,
or are you looking at moving it a little more broadly?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: The ones that we have mentioned and talked
about, of course, are the ones that we have had some success in dealing with
the professional organizations, but that does not mean that we are not working
with‑‑and this interdepartmental working group will be dealing in
all areas‑‑all professions and all trades. They are trying to make inroads, but that is
to look at the overall picture and the needs in different areas‑‑the
Apprenticeship Branch, of course, with the trades and the Department of
Education‑‑and filling in some of the gaps in training requirements
that will be needed.
Ms. Cerilli: Who, from this committee, is actually the
person who is working with the professional trade organizations?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is Aaron Mehzenta.
Ms.
Cerilli: Let us try another area from the 12 areas
that are the objectives, one of the other ones that the minister has designated
as key.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: One of the other recommendations that was in
the report was a recommendation to provide in‑person assessments and
counselling to resident immigrants, and that preimmigration guidelines on
academic, occupational and other human resource investments be made available.
In fact, we are counselling on a one‑to‑one
basis with those who have requested, and there have been support groups
established in the medical area. That is
one area where there has been a support group that has been positive.
Ms.
Cerilli: Who is the staff person responsible for doing
that? Would that be the same person?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: That is Manjeet
Ms.
Cerilli: There is counselling offered when someone is
coming to the office now who is inquiring about credential review. Is this also being offered to people who are
approaching some of the other educational institutions or the professional
organizations? Are we at that stage yet
where people are aware of the service when they are dealing with foreign
credentials?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I guess one of the objectives of setting up
this division was so that people could walk in the door, could ask questions,
and very often people in the past did not know where to go. This is a vehicle whereby we can refer or
work with the professional organizations, the trades, as a result of the
concerns that they have. Some of the
kinds of people who have come in to ask specific questions and direction are
child care workers, teachers, engineers and lawyers. People have started to come and we are able
to assist.
Ms.
Cerilli: Maybe what we can do now is just go through,
listing the other 12 areas, fairly slowly so I can follow along.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I guess it is recommendation No. 5, and I am
trying to make it a little clearer it seems.
Maybe I will go by what we have done.
We have established, as I said, the Immigrant Credentials and Labour
Market Branch of the Citizenship Division to respond to the recommendation.
Maybe if I could start with our response and
then indicate what the recommendation was.
It says:
". . . recognized as having
responsibility and regulatory powers for addressing all issues related to
accreditation, as identified in this study, and, in addition, to the review and
accreditation of foreign credentials in the
Our response to that recommendation and what
we have done is establish the Immigrant Credentials and Labour Market Branch in
the department.
Ms.
Cerilli: We have gone from the specific back to the
broad, the general, I should say, and what I am trying to do is get an idea of
the other recommendations that the division has set as a priority for how to
implement this huge undertaking. We have
successfully talked about three, and I am just wanting to get an idea of what
the remaining of the 12 are. There was a
lot of concern about language programming, about developing funding programs so
people could access upgrading, training, if that is the case, those kinds of
issues.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I shall start with the first page, and I
guess I want to preface my comments by saying that our branch has been
established and up and running for three months. I think we are on the right track and moving
as quickly as we can on many of the recommendations.
We have made progress on 12 recommendations
and maybe I could just go through those then and say the ones that we have made
progress on and are attempting to accomplish.
I think if we put that into perspective we will know that there have
been some positive things happening, as we have already discussed. One of the recommendations, of course, was
the database, and I have already indicated earlier in my comments on how we are
working to get that up and running with some progress by October of this year.
* (0940)
We have begun, certainly in the communication
process, and that is in consultation with those who do come and ask for
assistance and the communication of the branch with the professional
organizations and the trades and the branch with the immigrants who are
specifically looking for assistance in their field.
It recommends also that as part of an
immigration policy, a Canada‑Manitoba immigration policy, attention be
paid to the skills of foreign trained professionals in order that they can find
suitable employment in their designated fields without having to endure
protracted periods of hardship. That is
certainly one area that we are pursuing very aggressively with the federal
government, and that is an immigration agreement that in fact would give us, as
a province, more control over attempting to deal with those kinds of issues.
Counselling to resident immigrants‑‑and
that is the kind of thing that I indicated earlier, that we have, to date, in
the three months of operation had 88 people who have been dealt with through
the branch and some counselling and some assistance given.
Another of the recommendations is standardized
structured co‑ordination of ESL programs.
I do not know whether I indicated yesterday in Estimates, but we are
presently looking at a made‑in‑Manitoba ESL language training
program working in conjunction with the federal government and with the
professionals here.
We had a seminar that has already been held
where there was staff from the provincial government, staff from the federal
government and organizations and institutions invited. That was a very positive first step to
developing a made‑in‑Manitoba ESL training program that we hope
will be finalized by December of this year.
Ms.
Cerilli: I was just going to say, I was planning on
dealing with ESL separately from the credentials issue. So we can maybe leave that part over and I
will deal with that later. . . . to go
into more detail about ESL.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: As I indicated earlier, too, one of the
recommendations was an advisory board be set up, and that is being presently
established with input from the Department of Labour, Department of Education
and our Citizenship Branch. That
advisory board should consist of community representatives, academic,
professional and trade subcommittees to provide advice to our government and
our branch on issues relating to accreditation.
One of the recommendations, also, is that
consideration be given to the issue of ESL teacher certification, and that is
part of the consultation process that is ongoing right now. Recommended also is
that they review the use of language proficiency tests such as TOEFL, MTB and
CANTEST. I do want to indicate that as a
result of consultations and working together with the occupational therapists
they have agreed to drop the TOEFL test, and the Law Society has shown interest
to drop the LSAT test that they use.
They have shown interest. I guess
they have not made that final decision.
So there has been some positive progress in that area.
(Mr.
Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)
Another recommendation was the adoption of a
common core curricula for each trade, and that is part of the consultation that
is going on right now with the Department of Labour and the interdepartmental
working group.
The other recommendation is for in‑school
training, and that‑‑
Ms.
Cerilli: . . . can hold on for a second and go into a
little more detail about the common core curriculum.
(Mr.
Jack Penner, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is really a
little too early in the game to go into any specific detail. Apparently the
Department of Labour and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) have been
extremely supportive in working towards this.
But as I said, we have only been up and running for three months, and by
next year we should be able to give more detail on what has been accomplished.
Ms.
Cerilli: This is not one of the recommendations that I
am more familiar with. Maybe just give
me a specific idea of what the recommendation is. Would this be a core curriculum for people who
are seeking upgrading?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: My understanding is, in this recommendation,
that this would be a review of the trades curricula in its entirety, and that
was the recommendation that came forward.
Ms.
Cerilli: The trades programs that are offered at
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, if the core
curricula is changed and established, in fact, it makes it much easier for credentials
to be accredited. So that was the basis
for the recommendation. As I indicated
earlier, it is a little too early to indicate a lot of progress, but we are
working co‑operatively on that one.
Ms.
Cerilli: I ask the minister to proceed with the rest of
the target objectives for this program.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: The other one was a recommendation that
delivers in‑school training, which would be required to follow the core
curriculum, as established by the trade advisory committee. That is another one of those that we are
working on with the Department of Education and the Department of Labour and
the interdepartmental working group.
Again, of course, it is a little too early to give any indication of
exactly what will happen. By next year's
process, we should be able to give a more detailed update.
Ms.
Cerilli: Just to clarify, this is a review of all the
trades courses that are going on at the community colleges. I am still not clear about what is happening.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that was the
recommendation. These were both
recommendations from the report. We are
working now with the Department of Labour and the Department of Education to
see what, in fact, can be done and how we go about determining what the process
might be or could be. As we get into it and have a little more time, we will
better be able to provide information on exactly what direction we can take,
but we are in progress of discussing these recommendations in the
interdepartmental working group with Labour and Education.
Ms.
Cerilli: I remember yesterday, there was the issue
raised with one of the programs‑‑I think it was at Assiniboine
Community College‑‑and I am not sure which course it was, but
apparently there were 14 students who took an exam and all of them failed, and
they were claiming that the exam was not on the course that they were
taught. Maybe this review would go
beyond just assisting people with more credentials.
* (0950)
Mrs.
Mitchelson: One of the other‑‑and it is a long‑term
recommendation‑‑that we have been working on, is working with our
universities to give credit for prior experience. It is my understanding that the
I was just going to indicate that those are the
areas that we have over the last three months been targeting and prioritizing,
and we will continue.
Ms.
Cerilli: So with the universities and the medical
program, have there been meetings with the staff there where you are looking at
their consideration of transfer of credentials from other universities or
medical courses? Is that what has
happened there?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There has been extensive consultation with the
Ms.
Cerilli: There are just three other issues I wanted to
deal with in this accreditation area.
One of them is to identify currently how the number of credentials,
accreditations are being recorded. We
want to sort of have a benchmark, so we know how we are going to make
progress. I am wondering currently if
there is a process for keeping track of the number of foreign credentials in
Mrs.
Mitchelson: That is part of what the database will do for
us. Certainly, that is once the database
is up and established, and we do not have those right now because there was no
record. But through the database we will be able to update that and we will
have that kind of information into the future.
As I have said, we have only been here for three months, and I guess one
of the things‑‑without a permanent director yet in place for the
branch and that competition duly underway, I think we have probably made some
fairly positive changes. So I do want to
commend staff too for the hard work and the attempt to get many things
underway.
Ms.
Cerilli: Yes, I agree and I was going to say earlier
that I would compliment the staff on their accomplishments, and I am pleased
with what I have heard. I know that
there was previously the program recognition which was trying to deal with some
aspects in this area, but I realize it was not the same. So my compliments to the staff in this area,
and, as I said earlier, it is a very important and significant area in dealing
with the whole issue of immigration and multiculturalism and fairness in the
country and in the province.
I just want to clarify then the issue I just
raised. There is no record up until now
of the number of foreign credentials that get recognized in the province. Does Labour
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is my understanding that nobody does it,
and that is one of the reasons we have to establish the database and try to get
that information in.
Ms.
Cerilli: In the news release that was issued when the
program was announced, it says that there is a redirecting of existing
resources of some $225,700 toward the program.
Where is that redirected from?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, one of those
staff years was redirected from Immigrant Access, one from the Settlement
Branch, one from Business Immigration, and one from the person who was heading
the Working Group on Immigrant Credentials, that position. Those were four existing staff positions that
were refocused or redirected. In
addition to that, there were two new staff positions created and $150,000 in
additional appropriation.
Ms.
Cerilli: I want to run through the positions that were
redirected again. What was the position,
then, that was eliminated from the Immigrant Access program?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It was Manjeet
Ms.
Cerilli: So she had, prior to this program being
developed, been a counsellor at the Immigrant Access office, and now she is a
counsellor for the foreign credentials program.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, she was,
and what we have done is to refocus and redirect within the overall division,
Citizenship Division, and tried to focus and pool resources together to more
effectively serve the community, and, in the meantime, look at the areas of
priority, one of them, of course, being immigrant credentials.
Ms.
Cerilli: And the other one was the Business
Immigration position, and that was one of the other ones that was
redirected. Where is that one from?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, that was from Immigration Settlement, and
it was, as I said, a business immigration focus. That is Kai Tao. Certainly, within the Credentials and Labour
Market Branch, there is a need for that expertise.
* (1000)
Ms.
Cerilli: So what is this person doing differently now
than previously? How has the
responsibility changed?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is the recruitment of business immigrants
and the support for those business immigrants once they arrive here so that
they can adapt to
Ms.
Cerilli: It does not sound like he will have all that
much directly to do with the accreditation program.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: He will, if in fact it is determined that
business people are having to bring other business people with them in order to
establish a business here in
Ms. Cerilli: What are the other two positions that are
part of this program? As I am
understanding, the positions that you are describing for me are not necessarily
all dealing just with the accreditation program, but just describe for me the
other two positions you mentioned that have been redirected.
Mrs. Mitchelson: One person came from the Settlement Branch,
and that is the person who is now working with the computers to set up the
database. The other position was the
consultant for the working group on Immigrant Credentials, and in fact that
position has been converted to director so that we could recruit a director.
Ms. Cerilli: So then the two new positions do not include
the director. Those other two new
positions, what are those?
Mrs. Mitchelson: That is the policy analyst and one clerical
staff.
Ms. Cerilli: What a team, sounds great. Where is this office located? I want to go for a tour sometime.
Mrs. Mitchelson: They have just been located at 177
Ms. Cerilli: Are there any parts of the Citizenship
Division that are still at 114 Garry?
Mrs. Mitchelson: No.
There is nothing at 114 Garry now.
Ms. Cerilli: The final issue I wanted to ask you about
this is one with respect to the title of the program as it is referred to in
the Estimates book and a lot of the publications that the government puts out,
and you may have noticed as I have been asking questions, I have been referring
to it as foreign credentials and not Immigrant Credentials and there has been
some concern expressed to me that this more truly reflects the situation
because often it can be Canadians that leave the country and get their training
outside the country and then return, and they may have some similar problems as
people immigrating to the country. Is
there some consideration of addressing this change?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I guess it was to reflect the working group
on Immigrant Credentials, but in fact we will deal with anyone who has any
problem with accreditation.
Ms.
Cerilli: Maybe I will ask one general question related
to Citizenship Division. In this new
book you have put out since 1991‑‑I remember the old one, which is
about three times as thick. What has
been eliminated from the Newcomers' Guide as it used to be called?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: That new guide was developed in consultation
with the community who said that the old book was so thick and so detailed that
they had difficulty with it, in fact. So
what they have done is all of the information is still in there, but instead of
providing as much detail, what we have done is put phone numbers in so that
they can access information by phone if they need any more detail.
Ms.
Cerilli: I am just trying to get some idea of what
kinds of things have you selected to eliminate?
I agree, it was a pretty thick book.
It would not fit in your pocket.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, nothing was
eliminated. It was simplified, and it
was as a result of the community saying they wanted a simpler guide so that it
was readable and they did not get bogged down or confused in details, but if
there was any requirement for further detail, that had been included. So there is no area that has been
eliminated. A lot of the detail in
certain areas was eliminated as a result of a request from the community.
Ms.
Cerilli: I want to move back to some of the issues
that were being raised when we started discussing the ESL programs for people dealing
with foreign credentials, and maybe start off with asking, the federal
government has again come along and they are changing the English as a Second
Language programming, and I am concerned that again this seems to be being done
in isolation of the provinces. Is this
the case?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think I
indicated earlier that there has been, in fact, extensive consultation,
provincial‑federal consultation and also with the community and community
organizations in how to implement the federal language training policy. So they have the policy, but right now we are
looking at how that policy can be implemented and there is extensive
consultation ongoing right now. We
believe we will have a made‑in‑Manitoba language training policy
ready by December.
Ms.
Cerilli: Is the minister pleased with what the federal
government is doing? I understand that
they have changed the programs that are going to receive training allowance and
there are going to be now some gaps in the system. Is the minister satisfied with what is
happening? Does she not see that there
are some problems for people in
* (1010)
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have already
indicated to the federal government that we believe there are some serious
flaws, the two areas that have been raised, that is the citizenship area where
those who are citizens will not be afforded the opportunity and the training
allowance. Those are the two areas and
the two issues that we have expressed our concern, and we are trying to work
through in a consultative, collaborative approach, I suppose, a way to deal
with some of the problems. Those
concerns have been expressed already in writing to the minister.
Ms.
Cerilli: What is being done? Have they responded or are we going to have
to be looking at picking up programs for‑‑particularly it has been
raised with me‑‑senior citizens?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we are
regarding this first year as a transition year, but we have indicated that we
are going to try to work through collaboratively. I have not heard back from the federal
minister, but indeed staff have been working at the official's level to try to
ensure that there will be a fairly sensitive implementation of the program that
will address some of those needs.
Ms.
Cerilli: Does the minister have very much contact with
the federal minister? On this and other
issues, it seems that it is left up to the official's level. I am just wondering if the minister can give
her thoughts on that kind of relationship with the federal government, minister
to minister.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I indicated
even yesterday that, in many instances, there is not enough consultation with
the federal government, and there is not a great relationship. I know that in some areas, I know on the
cultural side of the department, that we have federal‑provincial meetings
on a yearly basis where ministers are involved in discussion over the issues
that affect culture.
The First Ministers at a First Ministers'
Conference did a communique back a year and a half or two ago indicating that
it was time that ministers across the country, regarding immigration issues,
sat down. We have offered, as provinces,
our intent that we want to see that kind of thing happen. We have made those requests of the federal
government. To date, we have not had any
positive response.
I think it is crucial and it is key, and we
will continue as provinces to push. We
are working interprovincially with some of our counterparts in a very positive
way. It does not matter what political
stripe the provinces are, we have had some positive co‑operation. We are wanting to see these kinds of issues
raised through federal‑provincial forums such as an official ministers'
meeting. As I have indicated, to date
that has not been accomplished, but we will continue to push for that.
Ms.
Cerilli: Are we looking at more federal offloading
here? Are school divisions going to be required to pick up and fill this need
for these kind of language courses? Are
the waiting lists for those programs growing?
Are they going to grow more, because the federal government is
continuing its focus on catering to business‑class immigrants?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we are still
in the negotiation process, but we know that there will be more money coming to
Ms.
Cerilli: Well, let us have an overview then of the
variety of different language courses that are now offered in the province and
where they are offered, either through the school division,
Mrs.
Mitchelson: All of the different programs are: Winnipeg School Division No. 1, course;
There is the Applied Linguistics program. The
Ms.
Cerilli: I want to go through those programs and see
what the changes in the funding are from last year to this year.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: We do know how much money we, as a province,
have put into ESL programs, but we do not have a record of what the federal
government is putting into all those different programs.
Ms.
Cerilli: I remember Estimates last year, and we had a
lot of fun with this one last year. I
will not go through the same thing. I
still find it amazing that we have these agreements and all this consultation
and contact, and we do not know how much money they are putting in. I mean, I find that quite a puzzle.
But I will just go through what the province
is putting into the various programs, and maybe have it broken down by last
year and this year.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: For the province, for Winnipeg School
Division No. 1, it is $1.174 million, and other school divisions are $38,000.
Ms.
Cerilli: How about
Mrs. Mitchelson: Provincial expenditure for Adult ESL at
Ms.
Cerilli: Just keep going through the rest of the
programs. Applied Linguistics, I think, was the next one you mentioned.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, all of the
other programs are federally funded programs with the exception of the
Workplace Language Training Program, and it is just salary assistance from the
provincial government in that program.
* (1020)
Ms.
Cerilli: You mean all we do is we pay the staff?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Just for development of curriculum and support
to teachers, yes.
Ms.
Cerilli: How much is that?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: $12,006.
Ms.
Cerilli: Go through again the other programs that you
mentioned that are offered in the province.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Applied Linguistics,
Ms.
Cerilli: Which are the programs that have the training
allowance given for them?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: We have a few in Winnipeg School Division No.
1. There is
Ms.
Cerilli: What is the nature of the programs at Winnipeg
No. 1 that are getting the training allowance?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There are a few people who do take a half‑time
course at Winnipeg School Division No. 1, but not very many. Most of them are
full time, and they are at
Ms.
Cerilli: Go over for me the amount of money that the
province put into these various programs last year.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Nothing has changed. It is the same amount.
Ms.
Cerilli: You are saying that any changes in the
program have been changes due to funding levels from the federal government?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes.
Ms.
Cerilli: What programs have the greatest demand for
them right now?
Mrs.
Mitchelson:
Ms.
Cerilli: Still there are different programs. There is the generic ESL, I think, that you
created. Is that the term that was
used? What are the other programs, and
what is the demand for the different programs?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: First of all there is the generic, and that
is the one with the highest demand.
Second is the literacy, and third is the events preparation for
TOEFL. Those are in order of demand.
Ms.
Cerilli: So what are the waiting lists this year for
these programs?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Presently the waiting list is at about 200,
but because we are going to increase the summer program this year, it is our
understanding that will be significantly, if not almost all, reduced.
Ms.
Cerilli: Is that only for the generic program?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: That is for all programs.
Ms.
Cerilli: That is just in Winnipeg No. 1?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: In Winnipeg No. 1 the waiting list is
approximately 93. At
Ms.
Cerilli: This is the issue that we are dealing with last
year where the
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is, of course, our responsibility through
our branch to deliver the programming, and we have control over the programming
in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 with our dollars.
Ms.
Cerilli: There has been some concern expressed to me
about this whole concept of generic ESL, that the groupings of people have such
a wide range of ability and interest that we are not following the same
principle that we apply to our public education system which I think this
government subscribes to, which is separating ability groups, and yet we apply
that to generic ESL. Can the minister
make any comments to that effect to support the creation of these generic ESL
programs?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: This is one of the areas that is being
addressed through the consultative process in setting up our made‑in‑Manitoba
program. There is extensive consultation
with teachers, with students, with professionals and we hope to be able to
achieve some common goals by December.
Ms.
Cerilli: Is there still the discrepancy in the School
Division No. 1 then, with the different programs that have different expenses‑per‑student
costs, so that the generic program, the literacy training program, the program
to prepare for TOEFL, all have different costs?
Is that still the case?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we are moving
to a blended funding model. This is
something that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 did want, which will be a more
equitable funding model. I guess the
discrepancy comes with literacy versus generic, and that is class size, because
for literacy classes, the classes need to be smaller. So that is one of the issues that would have
an impact or an effect.
* (1030)
Ms.
Cerilli: I will conclude the questions about ESL
there. I want to ask some questions next
on the Immigrant Access Service.
The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr.
Penner): I am wondering, seeing that we
are on Citizenship, whether the second opposition would have any questions on
Citizenship, we might conclude that section and then move on.
Mr.
Kevin Lamoureux (
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): What is the wish of the
member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli)? Can
we proceed with the questioning on Citizenship and then move on?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think what
we are saying, if the member for Radisson has some questions that are overall
related to this area and this division, whether we can deal with those
questions, and then the member of
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Is it the will of the
committee to recess for five minutes?
* * *
The
committee took recess at 10:33 a.m.
After
Recess
The
committee resumed at 10:38 a.m.
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Can the committee come
back to order?
Item 4.(a) Immigration Policy and
Planning: (1) Salaries $367,800.
Ms.
Cerilli: Just in concluding, we were just talking
about ESL; since the staff are still at the table, going back to the issue of
the waiting lists, how long is the wait currently for these 200 people that are
on the waiting list? What kind of
situation are they in?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: The two intake times at
* (1040)
Ms.
Cerilli: How about at
Mrs.
Mitchelson: The wait list is anywhere from two weeks to
three months at Winnipeg School Division No. 1, depending on whether the person
wants to go to afternoon or morning classes. We expect that in the fall with
the new program and the new funding model that will drop dramatically.
Ms.
Cerilli: A couple of other sort of small issues. I have a letter outlining Immigration
Awareness Week. I think it deals with a
very important and valid issue, and that is educating the public about the
values of immigration.
I know the Intercultural Council is involved
with this; there is a committee. I am
wondering, though, if the division and the branch have ever considered
developing any kind of information for the public on the values of immigration
to deal with‑‑especially in these times we always hear the comments
about increased immigration when we are in recession.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, the branch is presently looking at that.
They are looking at profiling individuals and human situation stories that
would promote and educate the general public on the value of immigration and,
really, what the positive impact has been and will be. So they are aggressively pursuing that at the
present time.
Ms.
Cerilli: When can we expect to see something like that?
Maybe give me a little bit more detail about what it would involved, how much
money we are putting into something like that.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: We have a week in October, and we have a
budget allocation of about $28,000.
Through that process we are looking at trying to profile the value of
immigrants and immigration to our province.
Ms.
Cerilli: So the $28,000 will go to that week, and that
is sort of all that is going to happen?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: No, in fact, there will be a week of high‑profile
activities creating general public awareness of the value of immigration, but
the $28,000 that is available is for the ongoing component of trying to profile
and heighten the awareness of the positive sides of immigration.
Ms.
Cerilli: Two questions: Why October, why the week of October? Secondly, where did this initiative come
from? How is it originated? It is something new, I think.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is an initiative of the federal
government, and that was the week that has been chosen. We are going to profile immigration that week
here in
Ms.
Cerilli: Well, hopefully, this is something that will
develop further. Related to this, I want
to ask about the fees that have been introduced by the federal government. I am wondering if the information that will be
presented will deal with these kinds of issues as well, if it will talk about
the kind of fees that they are now paying for all these services, and, on the
other side, if it will deal with the whole issue of taxation.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: In fact, I guess what it will be doing is
looking at the positive side, the economic benefits that have been created.
Ms.
Cerilli: Has there been research put into that in a
broad sense, or is it just going to be, you know, let us look at these people
that come here and set up small businesses, that kind of thing? Or will it be more, in a broad sense, across‑the‑country
contribution to the economy?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, there has been extensive research that
has been done. We will be talking about
economic levels also, so that people do get a sense that immigrants do come
here, and they move into a variety of jobs and a variety of levels. So that kind of research will be compiled so
that information can be shared.
Ms.
Cerilli: I guess what I am looking at is not just the
individual person getting into jobs and that kind of integration, but the whole
idea in a general sense of bringing more people to the country to create a
demand for goods and services, that kind of research, if there has been any
concrete research on that kind of larger‑scale economic impact.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Okay, this is one of the things that will be
needed in order to develop an immigration agreement with the federal
government, so we will be working co‑operatively to get that kind of
detail and analysis.
Ms.
Cerilli: So, up until now, that is not something that
is done. The federal government is not
doing that kind of research. I know, I
think it was last year, I was particularly interested in this, and I was trying
to get more information. I think I
raised this last year and you said the same thing last year, that we were going
to be doing this, but I think it is a very important area for the division to
be moving in.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It will be a very detailed study and analysis
and we are working with the Taxation Division right now to attempt to get that
kind of information compiled, so it is in process right now. I guess last year it was indicated that there
was nothing and there had not been in the past.
That kind of work is taking place just now.
Ms.
Cerilli: Is the federal government also doing that kind
of research?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is a co‑operative initiative between
the federal and provincial governments.
* (1050)
Ms.
Cerilli: The other questions I wanted to ask have to
do with the Immigrant Access Centre, and I had the pamphlet yesterday and I
cannot find it right now. I do not know
if you can give me one of the pamphlets for this service, but I was concerned
with one of the statements there. It
seemed to indicate a shift‑‑yes, that is the one, thank you‑‑in
the focus, and maybe if the minister can give us some indication of what the
review of this agency has shown, and if there has been any change in the
Immigrant Access Service.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, indeed,
there has been a change and a new focus, and it comes as a result of the
restructuring and the move of Citizenship Services to the Department of Culture
and the renaming of the department that happened a year and a half or so ago,
which brought together components and Immigrant Access came from Family
Services and, of course, ESL came from Education, and we got a bit of a
business immigrant component from the Department of Industry, Trade and
Tourism, to try to focus services in a co‑ordinated fashion for new
immigrants to Manitoba. As a result of
this process, there is a new focus and I think the shift has been away from
assisting individual immigrants to access services towards assisting government
agencies to change their policies and practices so they are more accessible and
appropriate to
So we have been working on a variety of
fronts. One of the areas is with the
drivers testing office and the Immigrant Access unit has upgraded the quality
and numbers of existing translated versions of the beginner's test by using a
process of back translation, and have begun translation into 24 languages of
the multipurpose form which all new drivers must complete, so we have been more
sensitive to the needs of our immigrant population in the driver‑testing
area in allowing them to be able to understand and pass the test and get their
drivers' licences. That is one area,
that is one focus and has been a very successful focus, by the way.
Ms.
Cerilli: How would the minister describe the old focus
or the old approach?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: It is sort of a one‑to‑one
counselling service with a social service component.
Ms.
Cerilli: That is not the way I understood it. I thought that there was work with
representatives from the various communities and that they were arms and legs,
people out in the communities who were trying to make sure that newcomers were
not being isolated, and that they were out there trying to identify what their
needs were and then help them access government.
I am certainly not disputing that there is a
need for what the agency is doing. I
think it is great to be translating various things like the driver's test. It sounds great. But I am concerned that we are losing people
out in the communities, and we are having more people who are assisting
government departments.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There was a focus on a sort of one‑to‑one
basis counselling under the old program with very, very heavy caseloads. What we have done is changed the focus more
towards community orientation and dealing with the communities in partnership
with government agencies. So it has,
indeed, reduced the caseload but expanded the ability to deal with more people
and more communities.
Ms.
Cerilli: So are those people who would have been dealt
with by individuals at the agency now being referred to other agencies? Is there some attempt to ensure that if they
are being referred, that the services that they are getting are going to be given
in a culturally sensitive manner? Is
that what is happening?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: We are providing referrals to the
International Centre, to Interfaith Immigration Council, and indeed if there
still are specific needs that are not being met, we are dealing with them
within the branch.
Ms. Cerilli:
From this study that was done, what was it that indicated that this
should be the way to go?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, as a result of
this branch moving to our department, the study was undertaken when it was
elsewhere. When we brought all things
together, we found that the study‑‑actually, the study has been
shelved. It was not a study that we felt
was appropriate to the needs. I accept
no responsibility for that. It was a
study that was commissioned and done before I ever had responsibility for this
branch within my department.
When we brought all of the components
together, what was done was major consultation with the service‑providing
agencies, with the large communities and within the division, to determine how
we could best attempt to meet the needs.
These were recommendations that were brought forward, and we have
implemented suggestions that the community and the service organizations put
forward to government to try to better address the whole multicultural component
and citizenship component of communities and individuals.
Ms.
Cerilli: Well, what I found exciting about this agency
is that it was trying to work directly with the communities and, as I said,
reach people who might otherwise be isolated.
I am concerned if we have lost the volunteer program and the translation
bank that was developing to assist people who are going to the taxation office
or going to register their car or dealing with the police, if they needed
assistance in translation. Have we lost
that service?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: We have not lost that. That is one of the things that is done
through the International Centre, and I believe, I know, it is supported
financially through the Department of Justice for translation services. But we have been working with Probation
Services. Analyze the problems of
providing court‑ordered services to immigrant offenders on probation
whose English is very limited‑‑that is one of the areas that we
have been working closely on.
We have developed a model for providing
services to immigrant offenders which will pilot the provision of services
using immigrant facilitators who share the offender's language and culture and
who have been trained to provide remedial workshops which parallel those of
mainstream offenders. So this is a pilot
that has just been undertaken as a result of consultation and working with
Probation Services to try to meet the needs of some of those in our immigrant
community who face language barriers and also, obviously, other problems, if
they have been offenders.
Ms.
Cerilli: Has the funding to the International Centre
increased since they are now expected to pick up the service which was offered
by government?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the
International Centre has always been providing the translation services, and
they have received money from the Department of Justice, through the Department
of Justice. I cannot give you the
figures on that. I do not have Justice
Estimates in front of me. But I do know
that they have provided, and the International Centre is federally funded.
Ms.
Cerilli: Well, the fact remains that we used to have a
service that was
Mrs.
Mitchelson: In the consultations, one of them being with
the International Centre in fact, they indicated to us that the service that
was being provided was a duplication of the services that they provided. Indeed, it was a recommendation from them
that they could provide that service.
Why would we be duplicating that process? So that was a recommendation that came
forward, that was accepted, and that was why the change.
* (1100)
Ms.
Cerilli: So the minister is saying that the
International Centre is providing assistance for newcomers to access government
agencies?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: That is right, and I am told we have not had
one single complaint as a result of the change.
I do not know, maybe members of the opposition have heard complaints,
but, indeed, we have not received one complaint at all as a result of the
change.
Ms.
Cerilli: So how have the staffing functions at the
Immigrant Access Centre changed, specifically?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There has been a focus on working internally
and making government agencies more responsive to community needs, and that is
counselling and dealing with trying to determine what appropriate programs can
be put in place to meet certain specific and unique needs. The one area, of course, that I mentioned
earlier was working with probation services to allow those that need additional
services or some counselling to have resources available in their languages,
that are sensitive to their culture in dealing with offenders from certain
communities that might have limited English language skills. So that is one of the areas where we have
been able to accomplish something positive as a result of the change in focus.
Ms.
Cerilli: All that I am asking is, of the 10 staff that
work in settlement and adult language programs, how many of them work out of
the Immigrant Access Centre and what do they do?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: As a result of the reorganizing and the
restructuring and the integrated system where staff can be utilized in
Immigrant Access unit, staff can be pulled in if there are additional needs,
but there are six people specifically there.
Three have specific language skills and deal with that side. Two deal with settlement language programs,
and there is a person half time who works on special projects like the
probation pilot project that was just implemented like the Bridging Cultures
program. There is also another half‑time
policy component.
Ms.
Cerilli: Am I to understand then that the staff that
you are mentioning with settlement language, those are the staff that are
working on ESL programs?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes.
Ms.
Cerilli: How many staff used to be at the William
office? I am not even sure if that
office still exists there. Before the
change in the program, how many people were just working in the Immigrant
Access office?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There is one person who used to work there
and that is Manjeet, who has moved over to‑‑but there are six
people working out of the
Ms.
Cerilli: I just want to see if any work is being done
with Child and Family Services from the Immigrant Access program, if they are
doing any work with CFS agencies to make them more accessible to immigrant
groups.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I am told that we get referral of problem
cases that we deal with, mostly from the Vietnamese community.
Ms.
Cerilli: How are you determining what especially this
half‑time person on special projects is going to do?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: When we are approached by another department
and there is a concern expressed that there is a need that needs to be met, if
we determine that there are some needs that are not being met, it is on a
project‑by‑project basis, and those projects do come up. We will accomplish and set up as we have done
the pilot project and then determine what the next project or what the next
need might be.
Ms.
Cerilli: I just wanted to wrap this up. Has there ever been any kind of a survey to
community groups to identify what government services in particular they would
like to see some changes made to or some developments to make them more
culturally sensitive? There may be
something in the racism report that the Intercultural Council developed that
could be reviewed, and there may be some ideas from there. Are those kinds of things happening?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There is consultation ongoing with
communities. There has not been a survey
done. Not a bad suggestion, it is
something that we could certainly look at and see whether it would be
feasible. But there is extensive
consultation and dialogue because we are dealing with many, many issues that do
deal with our immigrant and our multicultural community through this
division. Whether it be on the immigrant
credential side of things, on the access side, on the ESL side, we are in
constant dialogue with many from the community, many communities and many
individuals.
Indeed, as we determine and as we hear
problems, we will attempt to address them through the many services that are
provided or through referrals to places where they can be helped. So we will continue to do that, and I
certainly would not rule a survey out of the question. It is something we would have to determine
whether in fact it would be a useful tool in determining where we proceed into
the future.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I do have a number of questions that I was
wanting to go over. First of all to
start off, and I realize what line we are actually on but when I had last left
I was talking about the domestics, and the minister can feel free if she would
like to answer the questions. I did want
to make a couple of points known and possibly get some sort of a response as to
what the government's ideas are in regards to the domestic program.
The minister is well aware that the program in
fact has been changed quite extensively.
In fact it has been renamed. It
used to be called the Foreign Domestics Program. Now the name is changed and it is self live‑in
caregivers or something of that nature.
But the major concern that comes out of it is a couple of the
criteria. One is that you now have to
have a Grade 12 equivalent, and that poses a number of problems for some
potential domestics in this instance.
A Grade 12 equivalent, and I will use The
Philippines because that is the area that I am most acquainted with in terms of
the domestics, and the Caribbean, there the question is in terms of if you are
required to have a Grade 12 Canadian equivalent, that in those particular two
areas of the world where we receive a vast majority of our domestics, it means
that in many cases you have to go to a college.
That in itself limits the number of people who can actually apply for
the program.
Another concern is that now there is a clause
in there that means that you have to have six months full‑time training,
and again that raises a lot of concern and you are giving a lot more
discretion, I guess, to the immigration people in the foreign embassies in most
part. Once again, it prevents a
significant number of people from being able to apply for that program.
* (1110)
I have met, as the minister and as the critic
from the New Democratic Party has, with domestic workers and associations and
so forth, and we have raised those two points.
At least, I know I have raised those two points. In the canvassing of the groups that I have
had, I have talked to a number of current domestic workers who would not be
here today if, in fact, that criteria was used for them.
That causes a great deal of concern for myself
and I would hope for all members of the Chamber, because I know in the
different communities some are reading the changes as somewhat discriminatory,
and I see it as most unfortunate.
I know when we had raised the issue with the
minister, she had said that even though it is not a provincial matter that she
was going to raise the issue with her federal counterpart, and I would ask for
her comments on that.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: This is an issue that we have discussed. I know all political parties have met with
the associations that deal with domestic workers here in our province, and we
have all indeed expressed some concern.
The issues that were brought up today at the
Grade 12 equivalency and the six months of training are issues that we had some
concern with after we met with members of the community, too, and expressed
those concerns. But it is my
understanding that the Philippine Embassy has indicated that they do not
believe this will be a problem, that in fact it can be dealt with within the
So that is the dialogue that we have had and
the understanding that we have from the Philippine Embassy in
In regard to the individuals who have recently
come to light who have experienced or expressed some problems. As a result of that we have dealt with
federal officials and they have indicated that they would be prepared to share
the records of those individuals with our provincial staff should a release or
authority be given by those individuals to make that happen, and I think then
that we can deal with the facts and with the individuals to try to see whether
there is anything that can be done. So
we are working on the fronts that we can work on.
As I have indicated, I have stated many times
in the House, I do not believe in a policy that is discriminatory, and it
appears to me, at this point anyway, that the Philippine Embassy does believe
that the criteria that have been put in place can be worked out so that there
will not be any discrimination regarding Filipinos or those coming from the
Philippines.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Just to comment very briefly on the one issue
in terms of those domestics that we have made reference to earlier on in the
Estimates, I have, in fact, requested some of the forms, and if I receive them
today what I will do is forward them to the individuals for their signature and
then bring them back to the government in hopes that we can facilitate, or at
least attempt at resolving, those particular issues.
With respect to the policy decision by the
federal government, I have not seen any indication from the federal government
or received any sort of correspondence.
I have not communicated directly myself but have relied on my member of
Parliament from the area to try to find some sort of a confirmation that, in
fact, these changes are not going to have an impact of any sort, especially
discriminatory impact on those who would make application. Now, in the last conversation that I have had
with him he has not been able to receive any sort of confirmation of that
nature. Again, the two issues, one being
the education, the one being the full time, I would ask the minister if she has
any correspondence that would support that there will not be any problem in
those two areas.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I have not had any formal correspondence back
from the federal minister, but indeed we do have information from the federal
government on exactly what the six months training will encompass and we can
share that information if you would like.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would
appreciate some of that information and I would ask if the minister can just
give once again some sort of an indication on what that six months is. For example, if you are a nurse would you be
eligible even if you were not a domestic, but if you were a nurse of some sort,
or a teacher back in your homeland, would you be able to qualify under that six‑month
clause?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it says six
months full‑time training in a field or occupation related to the job the
applicant is seeking to fill as a live‑in care giver, and it says, this
must be done as part of formal education in a classroom or under the direction
of a qualified trainer who provided a rated assessment. It is our understanding that they would
interpret that a nurse would be a related job.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I think there would be some benefit in
finding out exactly what is related. I
know there are domestics that come to
Now this has occurred in the past where the
individual would be able to come to
Mrs. Mitchelson: It is our understanding that if, in fact, the
person that they work with or for, if there is some sort of supervision and
that information can be provided, that would be acceptable.
* (1120)
Mr.
Lamoureux: Again, just so that it is clarified, I am
talking about an individual that does not work outside of the home, but rather,
watch and cook meals for mom and dad, because possibly mom and dad are at work‑‑and
take care of the kids. Have there been
any communiques or any conversations that would alleviate that concern that
those individuals would still be able to come under the program?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, given that this
is a federal program, I think that probably what we need to do as a result of
this is seek that clarification from the federal government and try to get that
answer back. Since it is not our
program, I guess I cannot give the specific interpretation. I am attempting to interpret what I believe a
federal program is saying, but I will try to get that kind of information and
clarification from the federal government and respond.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Yes, and I would appreciate the response that
they give from that. The other issue, in
terms of the Grade 12 equivalency, I would suggest the same thing, that, in
fact, it should be the public educational system in those home lands in which
everyone has access to it, because once you graduate from those public school
systems, it is a very limited number that actually go on to the colleges.
So, again, that would be a form of
discrimination, and I think it should be clarified from the federal government
so that maybe what they are intending to do‑‑even if the intent
might be a noble one, if it has a result of having some form of discrimination,
I think it should be pointed out and it should clarified and corrected so that
the program itself does not lose its merit.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have said
many, many times that I share the concerns of any policy that might
discriminate against any person that might want to be coming to our country to
fill job skills or just to immigrate for whatever reasons. I will ask the questions and seek
clarification from the federal government on the issues that have been raised.
As I indicated, it has been discussed with the
Philippine embassy. They have indicated that
it possibly could be worked out in many instances in The Philippines, but I
will seek that clarification specifically and try to get an answer.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, another issue
that I wanted to deal with is with respect to a bill that I have introduced
into the House, and that is the Immigration Consultant. We have been of the opinion for a while now
that the government needs some form of regulation, preferably that is based
from law, that empowers the government to be able to licence individuals that
want to charge a fee for advising people on immigration policy.
I think that we have had an incident in
It does not matter which community you go
into, you will find that there are community volunteers or representatives that
give advice on a wide variety of different issues. Many of them would be termed as immigration
consultants, no doubt. It is not the
individuals that go out and give advice freely or set up appointments or
something of that nature. Those are not
the individuals that the legislation is intended to target.
What we are looking at targeting is those
immigration consultants that actually charge a fee for their services. The reason why feel that they should be
licensed in some manner, is because there are certain things that once a
government‑‑if they were to advertise in an ethnic paper or in the
Winnipeg Free Press, wherever they might advertise, if they advertise as an
immigration consultant, there seems to be a feeling by many that it is a
profession of sorts, that if you call that individual, whatever information
they give you is based on some sort of expertise.
But the minister knows as well as I do that
anyone can put their name in the paper and say, I am an immigration consultant.
Someone gives a call that might want a family member brought back from whatever
part of the world and seeks some advice.
I have heard of incidences where an individual charged money in order to
provide forms which are, in fact, free from the Immigration office.
I have heard of incidents where people were
told to lie on immigration forms; and that is the way that you come to
I think that if you had in place‑‑and
that is why I make reference to The Immigration Consultants bill that we have
introduced‑‑something in place that has a licensing procedure, just
for the ones that charge a fee, you can have an annual renewal. Part of that renewal might be to go and do a
background check, if it is a notary, if there is a marriage licence, whatever
it might be, that there is some sort of a security check. We are not talking about the establishment of
a bureaucracy because I would suggest to you that you might look at three or
four, you are talking under a dozen, I would imagine, individuals that would
apply for something of this nature.
It is something that could be quite easily
administered through even the Outreach office, or I am sure the minister would
have many ideas from within her own department or where it could be organized. But I would suggest that it would be very
easily administered and it would take care of a very serious problem that is in
fact out there and definitely worthy of pursuing. I would ask the minister what her opinions
are on that nature.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Some very valid points are raised. I do not think any of us like to see some of
those who are most vulnerable, in many instances because of language barriers
and because of a real desire to come to our country, that they should be used
or taken advantage of or charged exorbitant prices. It is unfortunate that that kind of thing
happens and does take place.
I think it is something that is extremely
worthy of consideration. It is something
we have raised with the federal government in our negotiations on an immigration
agreement. I think as part of that
process of negotiation we should be looking at what in fact might be workable
in those kinds of instances and see whether we can‑‑as we accept
more responsibility for immigration in the province, we want to ensure that we
are treating very fairly and very humanely the people that are looking to come
to our country, to our province.
So it is really worthy of consideration. I think we will look very actively at the
suggestion that has come forward through the whole process of the
negotiations. I do not think that the
federal government is not supportive of some sort of initiative in that
respect. We will work through it, and,
hopefully, we will be able to come up with something that will protect, to some
degree, those that are seeking assistance to relocate here.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would
like to think that we will see something in this respect. No doubt we would likely continue to
reintroduce the bill that I have introduced, even though it was somewhat late
because of the Legislative Council and the backlog and just the number of
private members' bills that we were being brought in. There was a problem in terms of translation
and so forth, so it came in very late in the session. So I am not going to push on that point much
longer.
* (1130)
But the minister made reference in terms of
the need to communicate with our national government, and I wanted to pick up
on that as I go into the credentials, if you will, and that is, I believe that
the national government should have the control over immigration matters. I believe that, in an ideal sense, if the
federal government can take care of all the immigration matters that are
brought up and addressed, we would probably be better off so that there is
equality amongst all of the different provinces.
I would not personally support an immigration
policy of a national government that says to each government, here are your
powers, you can go out and do all of the immigrations or tell us which
countries you want people to come from and so forth. I think that the national government needs to
have those types of controls, and then I am going to move right on in terms of
the accreditation.
This is why I bring it up, that one of the
recommendations was the establishment of a data bank. I have always suggested even, I believe, in
the resolution that I introduced with reference to the data bank that the only
reason why we felt it was necessary for the province to have a data bank is
because there is nothing in Ottawa, that the ideal place to have a data bank,
solely because they have the resources and there is no need for 10 provinces to
do it, then it could be done in, probably, the most proper fashion, because
they would be able to have offices within the different embassies so that the
data bank is being kept up at all times, and they are better able to reach out
to the different professional groups, and so forth. Now, the data bank idea, the recommendation,
having said what I just said, I believe is important for this government
because there is not one in place nationally.
We need to proceed ahead. I had made reference previously, even prior
to introducing the resolution, that other provinces have data banks or have
been working towards it. In particular,
the
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it would be
wonderful if all provinces right across the country could co‑operate in
this initiative, but I think until we break down the barriers that exist from
one province to another where we cannot even move to other provinces and get our
credentials accepted. In many instances
there is not equivalency across our province for those of us who were educated
here, so that there are some real issues there.
I know that it would be an ideal situation if
the federal government did have a data bank and all provinces could tap into a
universal‑type approach. I think
that would be the ultimate objective, but, you know, we have been dealing with
this issue of credentials and there has been a focus on it for almost a decade
now.
This is the first positive step we have been
able to take in the right direction, and we could wait forever for a national
system to be set up. I think that is one
of the reasons we decided to go ahead with the recommendations from the working
group and try to establish something.
We know, too, it is an overwhelming process,
that there are so many professions and trades and different issues that need to
be dealt with that you cannot look at solving all of the problems in one fell
swoop. What we have to do is proceed step
by step and try to make the positive advances in the areas where we can work co‑operatively
and show by example that there are successes.
It is something that can benefit not only a profession and an
organization and fill skill‑shortage needs, but provide an opportunity
for those who have skills, who have come here to utilize those skills in a
manner that they might have been able to in their home country.
So that is the reason we have started to move,
I think we are making some positive steps and will continue to work. Yes, we have had extensive consultation with
Mr.
Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, as I say,
in absence of a national program I think that we have to have a provincial one,
and that is, in fact, why we had recommended having the data bank established
in
Like the minister, we have no doubt had
communication with different professions and different individuals. When it comes to accreditation, I noted four
that come time after time in terms of people who feel frustrated because in
their homeland this is what they would do; they would teach, they would nurse,
they were accountants, they were engineers.
Those are the one that come up time after time with myself whenever it
is dealing with accreditation. It is not
to say those are the only ones, of course, but those are the ones that come up,
by far, most often.
I would imagine that to a certain extent the
minister would no doubt concur with me, because I think in many cases we might
be talking to the same people. I would
ask the minster, because I do not want to repeat some of the questions that
were asked by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) to walk me through a
hypothetical situation where someone comes to
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I think the first step, of course, would be
that a person would walk into the office and indicate that they are a nurse,
that they cannot be accredited here or they have not been accredited, and where
do we go for help.
* (1140)
What we will have in the office is a tracking
system that will indicate what the requirements are here in
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know that
one of the major concerns, and we will stick with the nurse now, that comes to
us‑‑and it is not to play down the professional associations. In fact, I have met with the nursing
professional association and think they do a fantastic job, but many or some
individuals feel that at times it is more of a roadblock than anything else.
I am wondering if the minister could comment
in terms of what role does her department play in terms of going to some of
these professional associations. The
underlying concern, especially when we are dealing with health care, is in
terms of the quality of health care, and no doubt we do not want to jeopardize
that quality.
I do not want to see reasons as to why not
justify it too easily to an individual that wants to get into the profession
because of something that is so general, everyone is a given, that we do not
want to sacrifice the quality of health care.
The reason why I say that is because, and I use that example, I have
been told of incidences where a nurse will come to
Now, I did not, unfortunately, do the actual
follow‑up to find out if in fact that actually happened, so it is
somewhat hearsay, but I would imagine that the department could tell me if in
fact that is the case and to comment in terms of it.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I cannot indicate what our requirements are
based on or what the requirements might be in the States. I do know that nurses do move from province
to province. I know there are different
standards across the country, and just because you have a degree in one
province does not mean that you are going to be able to practise in another
without some upgrading or testing or that kind of thing.
I understand that within that profession there
are problems just interprovincially, never mind internationally. I guess one of the reasons that we have taken
a lead in this area and gone ahead and responded very quickly to the working
group's report is that we recognize and realize that there are barriers in
place. I guess before there was the practical assistance and the liaison from
our department, possibly you might have a nurse trying to deal directly with
the accrediting body, the professional organization, and there were barriers.
What we are trying to do through this process
is develop that relationship with the professional organization, develop a
relationship with those that are seeking to be accredited and try to be the
liaison, the co‑ordinator, the agency that might help to break down some
of those barriers. I do not know if you
were here earlier when we were talking about engineering and in fact how we
have had that very positive relationship where the professional organization is
very prepared and willing to work with us.
What happened was the engineers who were having difficulty getting
accredited got together, provided recommendations on how they felt some of the
barriers could be broken down. We worked
with the engineering professional association and as a result of that, there
have been some positive changes, so those are the kinds of things we can do and
we can facilitate.
We have worked with occupational therapists
and with their organization, and, as a result of their working together‑‑one
of the problems is some of the language programs and examinations that have to
be undertaken for people to be accredited‑‑anyway, the occupational
therapists have agreed to drop the TOEFL examination which has been a
problem. So that is as a result of
requests and concerns being raised by those who are trying to be accredited and
of dealing with the professional organization and saying, can things be
changed, can we make it more easily accessible without decreasing the standard,
so to speak.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that is what I
was really looking for, is to see what type of communication there is between
the professional associations, and the reason why is because I know over the
weekend, and I believe the minister was at the same function, I had talked to
one individual who sits on MANSCETT, which is one of the engineering
organizations in the province, and had suggested some disappointment in terms
of why it is that they might not have been contacted.
I would ask if they have contact with regard
to MANSCETT on the accreditation, and particularly the accreditation report.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: My understanding is that yes, they were
consulted. We have written information
going back and forth from the department.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I am pleased to hear that. I know that MANSCETT has beem working not
only from within the province, but across the country in terms of trying to get
recognition of the engineers throughout Canada, and also working towards
accreditation for immigrants, and they were doing this, in most part, on their
own initiative. That is why, and this
one particular individual who approached me had given me, obviously, the wrong
impression, but I understood that they have actually videotapes and so forth
dealing with the accreditation and things that can be done.
All I wanted to do by raising this was to play
up the importance of the department, not only to be talking to just the
individuals who are looking for the accreditation, but I think the
communication between the department and the professional organizations cannot
be underestimated. In fact, Mr. Acting
Deputy Chairperson, that is an area in which the government, or this minister,
should be putting a lot of priority when it comes to this particular section of
immigration settlement and so forth, because it goes without saying that no one
at this table, no doubt, likes to see talented individuals and their talents
being wasted if they can do a profession.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, if I might
just comment briefly on that, I totally agree, and, of course, we cannot have
an accreditation system in place and working unless there is co‑operation
from the professional associations and government and those who are seeking
accreditation. It is important that that
dialogue be there, and that is one of the focuses of the branch.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I notice something that I did not see in the
report before was the occupational manual, and I hope the minister did not talk
about it previously. This is supposed to
be sent out to Canadian posts abroad and it is on 64 of the Supplementary
Estimates. I was wondering if she could
just give me some information in terms of what that is?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: This is for the designated occupations, and
it is promotion of those designated occupations abroad. It is information on
Mr.
Lamoureux: Those would be the designated occupations
where there is a shortage of‑‑I think it is 15 or 20 skills or something
of that nature. I know if the minister
has a listing of that nature, and it goes without saying a listing of that
nature or any of the other lists that might be provided for the member for
Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) with regard to that, I would appreciate having a copy of
it so I can forgo further questions in that area, and move on to another issue
that the member for Radisson had also commented on, but was also a major issue
in the last Estimates and that was, of course, the English as a Second Language.
In listening to the minister, she had
commented on how much money was being allocated out to different areas where
there is ESL offered. What I am
interested in knowing is where it is most cost efficient. I know in the debates last year, both in
Estimates and outside of the Estimates, there was an argument that was being
put forward from teachers, from interested parties, that the Winnipeg No. 1 was
one of the best models in
* (1150)
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in fact, I
think we can boast or brag in
Winnipeg No. 1 is right now probably the most
cost‑effective way to deliver our ESL service, but they are also asking
us to pick up some $300,000 worth of administrative costs. In fact, if that is the case, it may not be
the cheapest way to deliver the program in the province. So that is something that we are dealing with
right now, an issue that we have to deal with.
I have the number of student hours that are
being delivered in each of those. Oh, do
we want student hours or students?
Mr. Lamoureux:
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, if she has a
copy of it. You can just table the copy
or just get me a copy of it later on as opposed to doing it.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I can undertake to find the number of
students and the student hours both. I
will compile that information.
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I want to remind the
members of the committee that if you are not recognized your comments will not
be recorded on Hansard, and I want to make sure that everything that is said is
being recorded properly so that historians a hundred years from now can look
back in the annals of the Legislative records and ensure that we have
everything on record that has been said in this House.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would not
want to miss history.
The reasons why I ask those questions is
because I do believe that Winnipeg No. 1 is probably one of the best ways of
delivering ESL, and that is the area that we should be concentrating on. I know the federal government seemed to be
pulling out, in terms of their interest at least. I hope not of their resources, because the
minister is unable to provide us with where the federal government is
contributing.
But my concern still is, as it was last year, that
we are moving into more of a private service or into the private industry of
providing ESL. When I go over the
numbers and the seats and so forth, it will be interesting to see the number of
hours and the seats if in fact they have been increasing in the private sector
as compared to what the governments are offering. Part of the concern, no doubt
that the minister would share with me on this, is, who is teaching the
courses? This is the whole question of
the certification of the instructors.
If you have a private facility that hires
individuals who might not necessarily have the same sort of qualifications of
teaching as Winnipeg No. 1 might have in the services that they are providing,
the quality of what is being taught is very important, and that is why I think
what is needed is the background information.
I know the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli)
asked the question last year in regard to the federal funding, and I think the
minister should make an attempt to find out where the federal dollars are going
and get back to us on it so that we can enter into the debate on ESL next year
with those figures on hand.
I think that we have to look at the figures,
look at the number of hours and so forth that are being put in from each
institution to find out which one is the best.
Maybe that is where we should be putting more of our resources, and that
is where there should be more of the, again, communication with the federal
counterparts so that the minimal resources that government has are being maximized.
I note in the Manitoba Newcomers pocketbook,
and I read right from it on page 47:
there are many kinds of English classes available for all. For example, all landed immigrants may enroll
in daytime English classes at adult ESL centre in
I think that is something that is fairly
wonderful, and I guess the question that I would ask is, can that happen? If I want to register today for my free ESL,
can I in fact register and how soon can I start attending classes?
Mrs. Mitchelson: You
betcha. If you were coming to the
province as an immigrant and wanting English language training, you could
apply, and if you applied to Winnipeg School Division No. 1, the waiting list
would be very short.
Mr.
Lamoureux: What about landed immigrants who are here now,
if they were wanting to get some sort of ESL service?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: There is no difference. It is the same treatment.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I am very encouraged to hear that. I did not quite expect that I would be able
to attend at virtually any time now. So
that means that we are really meeting the demand for this particular
service. I know that the member for
Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) wanted to ask a question or two before we had passed
this line, so I will allow her to ask the questions and then we will pass this
line.
Ms.
Cerilli: The issue that I wanted to raise had to do
with the minister's comments about moving towards designated programs for job
occupations and that there would be programs where newcomers would be required
to live in a certain location if they were going to take that job. I see the minister is shaking her head; maybe
there is something she wants to clarify about that.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: If I could indicate, this is by mutual
consent. When we have a designated
occupation or a job shortage, what we would do is advertise abroad that there
is a need for a physician in Thompson, Manitoba, and the person abroad who felt
that they might like to immigrate to Canada, to go to Thompson, Manitoba, to
work as a physician, would then.
So it is a mutual type of thing. It is not someone who lands on our doorstep
here, and we say: You will be going to
Ms.
Cerilli: I realize that‑‑
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): The hour being twelve
o'clock, what is the will of the committee?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Two short questions.
Ms.
Cerilli: I will just finish this issue. I want to recess as soon as possible as
well. But what kind of status will that
person have under that program? Will
they have landed status? Will they be on a work permit?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: If it is a skill shortage, yes, it is a
landed immigrant with work status.
Ms.
Cerilli: How about in the independent investor
category or some of the‑‑I do not have my list that I made
yesterday‑‑other categories, entrepreneur, self‑employed? Will those people also have landed status if
they come?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Yes.
* (1200)
Ms.
Cerilli: Because the issue that is being discussed is
related to the domestics program and how there is some discrimination if you
compare the different classifications.
We have domestics who come and they are required to have only a work
permit and live in, and all these other categories are given landed status and
they are not told where to go.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the domestic
worker program is a special program and a special category. They are processed differently. In fact, what happens is they are processed
when they come to
Ms.
Cerilli: Some would see it as classic discrimination on
the basis of sex or socioeconomic status, that it is classist or elitist, or
whatever you want to call it, to have a special program, and if we dump the
program, maybe these women would be treated better.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.
Acting Deputy Chairperson, this was a special program that was set up to meet
special needs that were identified. That
was that we did not have people within
So it was a program that was set up, and as a
result of that program‑‑it was approved by the federal
government. It is the only program that
has a special compensation, I suppose, and that is that, after three years,
they can apply for their Canadian citizenship from right within
Ms.
Cerilli: I do not know if the minister heard my
comments at the end of what I was saying, but we are setting up the same kind
of program for occupational therapists, engineers. The other was accountants, I think, the other
occupations we discussed this morning, that we are setting up special programs
to meet shortages. But these people are
given much different treatment and they are landed immediately. I am wondering if we should be re‑examining
this live‑in program, if it now is, in fact, very discriminatory, as a
lot of people are claiming.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: A domestic worker can enter through the same
process abroad as any other designated occupation. So they can do it that way; then they are
processed abroad, this domestic worker program.
So they choose whether they want to go through this process, where this
is a special program that is set up and they want to be processed when they get
to
Ms.
Cerilli: I think there was a confusion there with the
microphones, but I will not worry about that.
Is the minister saying that they can either come
as a domestic worker under that program or they can enter abroad, but then
would they be applying under a different classification? Yes, okay. So that is not much of a choice really,
because they have created this program which, as the minister said, is meeting
a need. I wonder if the minister would
agree with me that this program is contributing to international exploitation
of women in a way that is compounded, because I think we still devalue
traditional women's work?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I guess, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, there
are Manitobans who believe that there is a need for live‑in domestic
workers of some sort. There are many,
many families who do take advantage of a program that allows working people to
have their children looked after in a very caring and giving way while they are
not able to be around. So there are very
many circumstances that are met as a result of a live‑in worker.
I guess I would‑‑I do not know if
there are any males that do apply to come in.
There are some, a very small number.
I suppose traditionally, I know that I did not go through the domestic
workers program, but I had to for two years have a live‑in person and I
found someone who had taken a nanny course in B.C. and wanted to work in
That was something that she chose to do, as
these people are choosing to come to
I guess that is the question, because it is
meeting a need. These people are applying.
They can choose to come one way or the other. It is a live‑in program because those
are the needs that are being met through the program that was put in place
because of expressed need by Manitobans. I guess I question if it is an exploitative
program. I would have to ask the
question‑‑and maybe we need a little more time for debate on this
at some point in time‑‑but is it a program that she believes is not
worthwhile and should be cancelled, that we should not be having a program at
all that brings people into our country to meet the needs?
Ms.
Cerilli: I am saying that it is a program that is
contributing to an international exploitation of women. I think that it is treating the women that
are coming as domestic workers far differently than if they were coming as
occupational therapists or engineers, et cetera, even though they are both
fulfilling a need in our economy.
The fact that they are working as caregivers
in a private home should not make a difference.
If it is a job, it is a job. I think that has led to a lot of the
exploitation that they are suffering. I
have asked the minister if she does not agree with that. I gather from your answer that you do not see
it the same way that I do, from that women's perspective.
What I would ask is if the minister agrees
that there should be some changes in the program? The minister talked about that these women
are making a choice, and I wonder if she supports having them have more choices
and having the option to not live in. I
understand that would still‑‑and I heard the head of the Department
of Immigration federally who said, you know, then it is not going to meet the
market demand. But that is tied in with
the whole issue of women's traditional work in the home being treated
differently. That is the whole reason
that these women are brought here. They
want to leave their developing country, come to the first‑developed
nations, and they are doing that because no one here is all that interested in
living in, and that is why there is the shortage.
It is probably different from some of the
shortages in other occupations, particularly in remote areas. I think some of these women would feel that‑‑well,
I will not get into that. The question I
am asking the minister is: Does she
support the addition of having a live‑in, live‑out option to the
program?
Mrs.
Mitchelson: Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think
when there is an identified shortage or a need, as we have indicated, it is a federal
government program that was established to meet a need that was expressed by
Canadians that they needed live‑in support in order to perform their
duties or do their job.
* (1210)
So the program was designed to be a live‑in
program. Now, I would certainly support
a program whereby those who wanted to immigrate, and I do not think you can
combine the two, you cannot say, you have a live‑in or a live‑out
option, but I think that if there were those who applied to come to Canada and
did not want to be in a live‑in situation, they could apply through a
process. I would certainly support that,
and I think that that can occur today, but specifically this is a live‑in
program. The options should be available
and the choices should be available should they want to come to Canada to do
domestic work, to work in people's homes and not live in, that they would apply
under those circumstances and be processed that way. So I support those choices, yes.
Ms.
Cerilli: Let us break for lunch.
Mrs.
Mitchelson: I might just ask whether there is a
willingness that we could pass this?
Unless there were any more detailed questions that I might need staff
for, but if we are going to be discussing policy and that kind of thing that I
can do without staff support as we come back.
I think the member for
The
Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I have an indication,
Madam Minister, that the member for
Item 4. Citizenship (a) Immigration Policy and
Planning: (1) Salaries $367,800‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $65,300‑‑pass.
4.(b) Immigrant Credentials and Labour
Market: (1) Salaries $254,400‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $121,700‑‑pass; (3) Grant Assistance
$271,800‑‑pass.
4.(c) Citizenship Support Services: (1) Salaries $183,800‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $27,500‑‑pass (3) Grant Assistance $95,000‑‑pass.
4.(d) Settlement and Adult Language
Training: (1) Salaries $438,100‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $116,400‑‑pass; (3) Grant Assistance
$1,212,000‑‑pass.
The next item is 5. Multiculturalism; we will
leave that for next time.
Resolution 22:
RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding
$3,153,800 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, for the fiscal year ending
the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
The hour now being 15 minutes after twelve
o'clock, committee rise.
NATURAL RESOURCES
* (0900)
Madam
Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order? This section of the Committee of
Supply is dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Natural
Resources. We are on page 124, item 1.(g)
Administrative Services.
Mr.
Paul Edwards (St. James): Madam Chairperson, owing to the exigencies of
the House‑‑and I have canvassed this with my friend from the New
Democratic Party‑‑I am going to be forced to leave at ten o'clock
for a committee meeting on other bills which I am also responsible for. Accordingly, I have the indulgence of my
friend from the New Democratic Party that I may ask some questions in this
first hour this morning more so than he, and I will be gone after that for at
least an hour, and it will be all his questioning. Accordingly, I want to ask the minister's
indulgence in asking questions perhaps beyond the actual line we are on. He can decline to answer them, or answer them
if he can. That would assist, at least,
in allowing me to get the questions I wanted to ask asked at this point. I wonder if he will be agreeable to that.
Hon.
Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Chairperson, I
recognize the restrictions of time that we are operating under, and I welcome
honourable members to use that time as best they choose and in not being
restricted to the line‑by‑line item that we are on. It may, on some occasions, require our having
additional staff from the different disciplines of the department available to
me that I may have to pause for a moment and have some of the staff come and
join me.
Joining me this morning, I would like to
introduce another senior person of the management team of the Department of
Natural Resources, Dr. Merlin Shoesmith, who has recently joined our management
team as our assistant deputy minister, his field being primarily in the
resources integration of the department.
Mr.
Edwards: We were on Administrative Services, line
1.(g)?
Madam
Chairperson: Yes.
Item (g) Administrative Services:
(1) Salaries $793,900‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $143,900‑‑pass.
1.(h) Internal Audit and Program
Evaluation: (1) Salaries $165,200‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $11,900‑‑pass.
2. Regional Operations (a) Headquarters
Operations.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I wonder if the minister
can just give a report as to what has happened in the wake of some of the job
losses, the position losses last year. I
noticed at the time that there were people who were taken out of some of the
regional offices. Which of the regional
offices, if I can ask in a global sense, has experienced loss of personnel?
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, no regional office as such
has suffered a particular loss in terms of manpower. Allow me to explain that the major reduction‑‑and
it adds up to significant numbers of staff man years‑‑was, in the
first instance, in the Regional Services as it applied to our Parks operation.
Tradition and history had a number of positions working on staggered work
hours, that is, that they would be working not full time but with some time
off, particularly during the winter months.
That amounted to a very significant portion of the overall, the global
decline in job numbers, I think, a total of very close to some 100 positions.
When it was reported, as a result of previous
budgets, that that kind of reduction in manpower was taking place in the
Department of Natural Resources, that did not really mean a total loss of these
jobs, but it added up to equal somewhat in excess of 100 positions. These persons continue to be employed by the
department, but on a staggered work order.
In total, in the Regional Services, there were some 28 positions in
total, in a global sense, that were reduced, one specific region in Gimli and
the rest spread throughout the province. [interjection! Pardon me, the rest in
Mr.
Edwards: Is it anticipated that there will be any
further reduction of positions in the coming year?
* (0910)
Mr.
Enns: It is certainly my hope that will not be the
case. There have been some specific areas within the departmental activities
that we have managed to increase slightly the staff component. I specifically mention the additional funds
and resources and staff that relate to the enforcement part of the Regional
Services delivery, in the Resource Officers category, where‑‑in the
putting together of the enhanced enforcement team, or SWAT team as it is
sometimes referred to‑‑some additional three positions were
provided for and are being filled.
I can only use this opportunity, Madam
Chairperson, to encourage both my official critics from the New Democratic
Party and the Liberal Party to assist me and my department in acknowledging the
ongoing importance of the mandate of this department, that it receives the kind
of support from a cross section of this House, as I know there is a continuing
demand in the general public for the services this department renders.
But to give the short answer, no, I do not
anticipate any further reductions. It
would be my hope, in selective areas, to increase staffing where needed.
Mr.
Edwards: I must say I am somewhat puzzled by the
minister's response, and I am just going briefly through this area, this branch
of the department, and I see that staff years, there were two staff years lost
in the Professional/Technical area under Headquarters Operations.
There was one staff position lost in the
Professional/Technical area in the Northwest Region. There were five Professional/Technical
positions lost in the Central Region.
There were another five positions lost in the Professional/Technical
area in the Fire Pre‑Suppression Program. There was a position lost,
Professional/Technical in the Fire Tac Program.
Those are all lost, it would seem, in the
department. Those numbers do not seem to
add to up to the ones the minister can talk about. Maybe he can clarify that.
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, a position is counted as
lost to the department when the position as such is no longer budgeted
for. A number of the positions referred to
in the detail that I provide members with were positions not filled. They were vacancies. We are under instruction from Treasury Board
to maintain a vacancy rate in the order of 4 or 5 percent all as budgetary
measures to restrict overall departmental costs.
When questioned as to the number of job losses‑‑as
I know the member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), the member for Swan River
(Ms. Wowchuk) from time to time asks me‑‑it does get easily
confusing as to whether particular layoffs occurred, whether particular persons
lost their jobs as compared to positions within the department that have been
lost.
There is no question we have made no effort to
deny or conceal the fact that the Department of Natural Resources in the budget
of '91‑92 accepted fairly severe restriction in funds totalling very
close to $14 million. We have tried our
best‑‑it is never pleasant to do that‑‑to restrict the
impact of these positions lost internally within the management, if you like,
of our regions, so as to not affect the, least of all, program delivery in the
field.
Mr.
Edwards: Is the minister saying then with respect to
those positions which I have just gone through that they are still positions
existing within the department, but that there is simply a further delay in
filling them, that the vacancy, it is anticipated, will be filled at some
future date?
Mr.
Enns: I am prepared to table a list of the positions
that I am referring to, and these are permanent cuts. The positions have been deleted from our
appropriations. If it is helpful to the
honourable members I am prepared to supply the members with that list.
Mr.
Edwards: That would be very helpful, and I am sure for
the member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) as well. On a new issue area, I noticed last night on
the news again the ongoing dispute up near Ashern with respect to the charges
that have been laid against aboriginal individuals in respect of an unfortunate
incident in which pregnant animals were destroyed. [interjection! I realize I
have not asked my question yet. I notice
that the minister was speaking to his officials.
I realize that it is before the courts. I realize that it is a contentious issue that
the minister may not want to comment on specifically with respect to those
charges.
I would like to ask the minister whether or
not he perceives a problem beyond that particular incident, whether or not this
is something that should be the subject of an educational program of some sort‑‑some
sort of an approach to the aboriginal and the nonaboriginal community to impart
the importance in terms of the proper management of wildlife stock, of not
slaughtering animals who are pregnant which, of course, is not good wildlife
management practice. I wonder if the
minister can comment generally on that issue area as opposed to this specific
case.
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the
honourable member's awareness that it would, indeed, be inappropriate for me to
get involved in the details about the particular case that is before the courts. But I repeat, as I indicated in my brief
opening statement, that this is an area that continues to be perhaps one of the
more challenging aspects of our department's activity, to acknowledge without
question the constitutional rights that our aboriginal community has with
respect to accessing game, but I share with honourable members the direction
and instructions that our enforcement people are being given.
In fact, maybe in a more forceful way, there is
in my opinion a clear separation of the two issues when overall safety is
involved. We are, for instance,
prosecuting and, I believe, getting convictions where unsafe hunting practices
are engaged in. I refer specifically to
shooting from road allowances. Sometimes we in the department employ the use of
decoy animals and we show no discrimination whether it is a non‑native or
native person that is engaged in an unsafe hunting practice as distinct from
preventing the native person from accessing and exercising his constitutional
rights to the game.
I wish to pursue that aspect further. I, quite frankly, personally feel rather
strongly that it is unsafe to hunt animals of any kind, to be in the woods at
night. Surely one of the well‑established
safe hunting practices, or safe use of firearm practice is to know what it is
that you are shooting at, and I quite frankly personally feel that shooting in
the dark of night violates that safety factor.
I am asking some of my departmental officials to see whether or not we
cannot step up our enforcement against the practice that is found offensive by
most Manitobans, the practice of nightlighting, if it could not be‑‑again,
without discrimination or without it being a restriction on the aboriginal
constitutional right to game, but on the basis of whether or not it constitutes
an unsafe hunting practice, and for that reason alone‑‑ought not to
be allowed.
Mr.
Edwards: I have now had a chance to look at the budget
reduction report the minister tabled. I
notice there are 28 positions, six of which indicate that they are vacant, 22
of which indicate that they are occupied.
Do I take it then that those 22 occupied positions, those people in
those positions were terminated?
* (0920)
Mr.
Enns: I am advised, Madam Chairperson, that all the
staff affected in this year's reductions have been able to find redeployment
within the department. The department is
a large department. We have an annual
turnover and/or other vacancies, and that is the advice that I have from my
officials.
Mr.
Edwards: That is good news that those people were able
to find other employment. I notice that
under Activity Identification‑‑I realize I am moving around a fair
bit here‑‑but I notice that one of the activities of the
Headquarters Operations is the co‑ordinating of emergency flood
operations.
The minister will no doubt recall that back on
June 25, 1991, there was flooding in Selkirk last spring. That was the result of a torrential rainfall
on that date, not so much the flooding of the
Can the minister indicate whether or not the
individuals affected have, in fact, received award letters and compensation and
whether or not those claims have now been resolved?
Mr.
Enns: That program is administered under the direction
of my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), and I am
advised that‑‑while I am aware of the incident the member refers
to, I cannot, nor can my staff help me with the question asked. Emergency measures organizations and the Manitoba
Disaster Relief Board both answer to and operate out of the Department of
Government Services.
Mr.
Edwards: This is not strictly within the appropriation
that we are dealing with, but related to our earlier conversation about trying
to answer questions generally. I wanted
just to ask a couple of questions. I
think the minister himself is able to answer the questions on the Endangered
Spaces campaign. I just wanted to ask a
question related to that.
The goal for completion has various steps that
must be met so that the Protected Area system can be in place by the year 2000.
I wonder if the minister can comment on the steps that must be met for
That is the action agenda which should be
achieved by May of 1992. We have now
passed that. What action has been‑‑have
we completed those six steps?
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, I am well aware that other
interest groups, that is, other than the provincial government, have laid out
specific action plans for us, agenda and sitings. I remind the honourable member that the
responsibility, the very serious responsibility of designating sites and
setting aside lands under the Endangered Spaces Program will be determined by
this government and on a time agenda that we are comfortable with. I do not disagree with most of the sitings
that the honourable member listed.
I remind the honourable member that,
certainly, to take for example, a major portion of that which would represent
our northern Arctic contribution to the Endangered Spaces Program, such as the
proposed second national park for Manitoba, the Churchill park, is a very
complex matter of negotiations between the federal government, our government,
and certainly has to take into consideration the interests of aboriginal
concerns in the region, as well as other traditional and current interests
within that proposed region.
I am pleased to report that senior people in
the department under the chair of both my Parks director, Mr. Gordon Prouse,
and more specifically, Mr. Rich Goulden, who is our senior person on the
working team that has had continuous meetings on the development of Churchill
Park‑‑it is my hope that we can move it forward to the kind of next
step, to actually sign a memorandum of understanding that will lead to working
out the details of the land transfers that are involved and the host of other
conditions that have to be met prior to the federal government, Parks Canada
agreeing to that proposal.
I can tell the honourable members that there
is good will on both sides. Certainly the
federal government is anxious to proceed with the development; the provincial
government is anxious to proceed with the development.
There are some continuing concerns relative to
the very restricted regime that would be imposed on that area; that is of
concern to aboriginal people who have some potential future land claims in that
area, as well as they are concerned within the community of Churchill, although
my understanding is that the mayor, Mayor Webber is, in the main, very
supportive of the proposal. But I point
this out to the honourable member that I cannot, as Minister of Natural
Resources, nor can the
So that is very difficult then to keep to the
agenda of outside interest groups who applaud, who want to see that happen,
whether it is the Manitoba Naturalists Society or the Canadian Wilderness
Caucus. I do not quarrel with that
objective. I am doing everything I can,
and my staff are being pushed and prodded by me to move in that direction.
I just recently, as recently as two weeks ago,
met with the federal minister, Minister Pauline Browes, on the very same issue,
to confirm that the federal government, Parks Canada, is as concerned and as
interested in moving forward on this project as we are, but that depends on a
number of other things to happen and will certainly not necessarily be dictated
to by an outside group's timetable.
Mr.
Edwards: Okay, Madam Chairperson, that is one out of
the six. That is the Churchill and,
granted, that is a federal initiative.
The other five are within the sole jurisdiction of the province. Has any one of those five been achieved?
Mr.
Enns: We have done, Madam Chairperson, to answer
the honourable member, a considerable amount of preliminary work internally
within the department, but I have purposely withheld from moving beyond that
stage in the hope that, certainly, in the up‑and‑coming hearings
this fall, we will be hearing and getting a lot of advice on this very subject
matter.
If the honourable member goes back to the
press release that he spent some time on earlier when we started the
consideration of the Estimates, that is why we have several objectives, a
number of objectives that we want to glean from the public dialogue process.
* (0930)
We hope, certainly, for our Parks managers and
our Parks people to find direction that will culminate and lead to guidance for
a new Parks act. We hope to find
direction and guidance from the general public, particularly in those areas
where some of these lands will be designated with respect to nomination for the
Endangered Spaces Program. We hope to as
well resolve some of the management problems in some of our areas that people
like our cottage owners face, how they relate to the department in terms of the
services they require relative to the fees that they are charged, whether there
ought not to be a consultative or advisory body created that makes them feel
that they are not, in fact, being taxed without representation.
Of course, as the honourable member is quite
aware and no doubt will want to touch on further, there is the question of
development and further resource extraction from some of these lands. All of this comes under the umbrella of our
discussions about our Natural Lands Strategy, which includes Parks and the
Endangered Spaces Program. I hope, as
minister, to be able to, with more confidence, recommend to my government sites
such as the ones he has mentioned and others, and ways of achieving our
commitment to the Endangered Spaces Program.
I will cite just one more for the honourable
member's benefit‑‑for instance, the area that would represent the
Manitoba lowlands, which, I know, figures relatively high in that list of
geographic areas that should be represented in the Endangered Spaces
Program. There are different ways of
approaching it.
One of the ways certainly is being
investigated and has been publicly spoken about; that is, that the federal
government may as well be interested in a region such as
It would not distress my government, my
department, if indeed Parks Canada were interested in operating Hecla
Provincial Park as a second or third national park, and preliminary steps are
being taken to engage in the very first preliminary step in this direction‑‑and
that is, the agreeing to a feasibility study jointly funded by the federal
government and the provincial government to examine that possibility.
But again it is in that kind of prudent,
cautious way that this government will move to meet our commitments to the
Endangered Spaces programming, recognizing that the goal set not by us but by
the World Wildlife Fund and others is to achieve these percentages or these
designated lands by the year 2000. That is the timetable that I am working to,
not to any other timetable that others may wish to prepare for me.
They do not have to answer to the people affected
by these designations, which can be severe.
They do not have to undertake the negotiations with communities or
aboriginal groups that my government has to undertake before any advance can be
made in this program.
Mr.
Edwards: However, in terms of recommending to cabinet
and making commitments, the minister has already made a commitment to this
program. He has made it. He was the first in the country to do it and
took a considerable amount of pride and garnered a considerable amount of
praise for doing that some time ago.
I recognize what he is saying that he is
committing to the larger agenda, which gives him some considerable breathing
room to the year 2000. I gather what he
is also saying is that while he accepts the ultimate goals and timetable, he
does not accept the interim incremental timetable which the Endangered Spaces
campaign and the World Wildlife Federation seek to impose upon jurisdictions.
But I take issue with the trend which I sense
is to try to suggest that the federal government should be more co‑operative
or that that is the problem, or that negotiations with them is hampering the
efforts in this area. As far as I can
tell, out of the six priority areas in the short term, only one absolutely
relies upon federal participation. Let
me ask the minister if he accepts the six identified, short‑term priority
areas which I read earlier and if, within those six, he accepts the immediate
priority of removing the Roaring River Canyon and Teepee Creek ravine areas
from Repap's forest management licence area and classifying those as wilderness
zones for Duck Mountain Provincial Park, which is articulated as an immediate
priority. Does he accept that one as the first and foremost priority? Does he accept the six set out as the next,
the short‑term priorities in getting to the year 2000 goal?
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, my only comment on that
question would be that they are among the candidates, but there are
others. I would ask the honourable
member to acknowledge that if we had not, in a very public way, committed
ourselves to a very serious discussion with the public of
It would be, I think, not helpful for me as
minister to, in advance of these hearings, to make, on this issue or on other
issues, a host of decisions or commitments without allowing myself or the
department and the government the benefit of having these issues up for debate,
as they will be in the various communities across
Madam Chairperson, I did not particularly like
to withdraw Bill 20 or 21‑‑I forget the actual number‑‑but
it had to do with amendments to the Park Lands Act that would have, in my
judgment, enabled the government to do what it has wanted to do for some time,
to bring some fairness into the business of assessing cost to cottagers within
the Parks system.
The reason that I chose to withdraw that bill
was simply to underline the importance that I attach to these coming hearings.
I was prepared to accept the criticism that was being levelled at me for
introducing an amendment to the Park Lands Act at the same time that I am
saying that we are going to a series of public hearings to do what?‑‑to
hear from the public as to how the Park Lands Act should be amended or how a
new Park Lands Act should be drawn up. I
accepted the valid criticism that I lose some credibility in acting in a
unilateral manner in any fashion with the park lands act prior to these
hearings. I say to the honourable
member, that is my position, that is my attitude towards the questions that he
is now asking with respect to nominations for the Endangered Spaces Program.
I will not be drawn into a commitment to a
specific area. I am well aware of
them. I certainly have received
representations on all six of the agenda items that he speaks of. I have had individual correspondence on
that. I am certainly aware of where the
World Wildlife Fund is coming at, but I believe that
Mr.
Edwards: I think the minister has to recognize that he
made a commitment, and the debate presumably took place within his own
department, within the government, before making that commitment. The commitment came not just as a, I will assume,
result of a light decision. I assume
that the tenets of the proponents of the agenda that the commitments that would
have to be made between now and the year 2000 were investigated and were
accepted.
* (0940)
I do accept that the minister does not necessarily
have to follow the timetable set out by the Endangered Spaces campaign, but he
has already accepted on behalf of all Manitobans and his government that the
long‑term agenda has been accepted.
It is committed to. It is
done. That is not up for discussion
apparently, if this minister's word, back when he committed to the campaign, is
to be honoured, and I assume it is.
Can the minister cite, since he made the
commitment, the designations that have taken place to get us some of the way
towards reaching the goal by the year 2000?
What areas have been designated specifically under this campaign thus
far in achieving our goal?
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, there have been during the
past year, in the past two years certainly, during the period that I have had
the privilege of being responsible as minister of the department, several
additional‑‑I believe four additional‑‑ecological
reserves, for instance, designated. They
have been done so under that specific program.
They happen to, by the nature of the criteria
and the conditions that apply to the ecological reserves, meet the criteria of
the Endangered Spaces Program.
Specifically, no additional areas of land have been cited under the
Endangered Spaces Program. They are
counted as being part of that program and will more formally be so designated
in the future.
But again, I can only fall back on what I have
already said, that we are in the process of looking at a number of areas not
excluding, for instance, the 7.5 millions of acres that are currently under
designations, wildlife management areas.
There is an examination taking place as to
which of those areas would meet some of that criteria demanded for designation
under the Endangered Spaces Program. We
will certainly be looking at some 4 million acres of land that we have set
aside as provincial parks for candidacy in that program. But there will be a great deal of discussion
involved in that program because part of that involves no resource extraction
to be eligible for that designation.
Certainly, the current land that fits fully
and appropriately in that Endangered Spaces Program is, of course, our national
park at
Mr.
Edwards: I would appreciate receiving a list of the
four that the minister mentions, at his convenience, that ostensibly qualify
for designation under the program. It
would be interesting to see those four.
Let me just ask if any of the five, outside of
the establishment of the national park at Churchill, of the short‑term
priorities of the campaign, are met by any of the four that he mentions have
already been completed.
Mr.
Enns: Honourable member, either it is too early in
the morning or I have not had enough coffee yet, but I do not understand the
question.
Mr.
Edwards: My question is this: There were six short‑term priorities
set out by the Endangered Spaces campaign.
One of them the minister has correctly indicated is pretty clearly
within federal jurisdiction; that is the establishment of a national park at
Churchill. So I accept that the minister
could not have achieved that on his own.
The other five, the provincial government
could have done. Of those five, it is my belief that none of them has been
achieved‑‑not one.
Mr.
Enns: The honourable member is correct. I just, once more, underline, we are talking
about‑‑and my colleague the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk)
knows what I am speaking about‑‑taking significant areas of land
and saying from henceforth nobody can do anything on that land in terms of
resource extraction. There can be no
independent woodcutters in there; they cannot supply jobs for a particular area
like that.
Now before we do that, I think it is prudent
that we at least provide the opportunity to visit in that community, to look in
detail at the land that is so being designated, and after that kind of
discussion, come to the decision about what can be designated. It is very easy for somebody from
The program is that given‑‑and it
is not carved in stone, but we do not argue with it that roughly 12 percent of
Mr.
Edwards: Well, the minister's argument is, I think,
spurious at best, given that he has already designated four, so he is obviously
not afraid to designate. He is not
waiting for the public hearings to do some designation. He has already designated four.
What he has not done is do the things that are
on the short‑term priority list for the World Wildlife Federation and
Endangered Spaces campaign, and if he is disputing their prioritization, fine,
but let him not say that he could not have achieved‑‑and let me
just finish my question‑‑what they have set out. Let me read three of them: purchase 640 acres of tall grass prairie‑‑that
is one section he was called upon, hardly a massive disruption of provincial
landowners; No. 3 on this list, identify candidate sites for protected areas‑‑not
buy them, identify them, that is all he had to do, was identify the candidate
sites for protected areas in the northern transition zone; another one,
identify possible sites for protection of the Souris Till Plain‑‑again,
identification.
* (0950)
Nobody is saying, go out and buy out thousands
of landowners. That is not what is being
talked about. It is a very simple, very
modest goal that was set out for him under this campaign. What is wrong with those three? Why has he not had any success in achieving
them? He is obviously not waiting for
the public hearings to start it all, because he has started. The point is he has not done any of the things
that the campaign itself says are critical.
If he is taking issue with their prioritization, so be it, say so, but
let him not say that he just could not achieve it because he had to wait for
public hearings. Can the minister
indicate why he could not have done even the minimal three, those three I have
cited, which were very easy to do and would not have caused any of the
disruption that was required?
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to indicate
to the honourable member for St. James that the department does not wake up one
morning and say, gee, that would be a nice piece of property to put into an
Ecological Reserve site. The Ecological
Reserves program is an ongoing program.
Some of the four designations that I refer to
under this program probably took two, three, four, five years of staff
work. It meant meeting with the
municipalities where the area was involved.
It meant meeting with the farmer who was involved. The member says, one section of tall grass
prairie; that might have been tied up for two or three years in council debate
in the LGD or in the Council, where that land lay, whether or not they wished
to give that piece of land up for this kind of designation.
Mr.
Edwards: Was it?
Mr.
Enns: I do not know; I am just saying to you that it
is not done in that fashion. I have
indicated to the honourable member that all of the sites that are being
referred to are listed, are candidates, among others, to be considered and
certainly will be given their consideration.
That is all I can answer to at this time, Madam Chairperson.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, it may well be that the 640
acres is tied up for years by the local government district, but this minister
does not even know if that would have happened.
He cannot say it happened. He
cannot say that is the reason for the delay, because he has not tried. Now if he tried and that would have happened,
fine, we can deal with that, but he has not tried. It could have been done overnight, too, if he
would have gotten to it and made an effort.
Identifying candidate sites and possible
sites, I cannot imagine any legitimate reason for delaying in doing that. It is not calling upon the government to
spend any particular sums of money, expropriate any particular landowners,
destroy any rights, logging rights. It
is calling for a study to identify the sites.
If he is waiting for public hearings on those,
can he tell us whether or not he is going into those hearings with at least his
department's expertise having been applied to determine the possible sites and
the candidate sites so that when he gets to the hearings, his department will
have something to talk about in terms of using their expertise to have
identified, according to the best of their information, what those sites should
be?
Mr.
Enns: Madam Chairperson, I can assure the
honourable member that there will be lots to talk about and that a lot of the
work that has been done on precisely the matters that the honourable member
refers to, the possible site identification, the internal departmental
investigation as to feasibility of certain sites, the question of what current
interests would have to be dealt with prior to such designation‑‑and
I would suspect that in every part of the province that we visit and hold these
hearings or public information meetings, the department will be in a position to
talk about specific geographic areas of land that in that area are being
considered as potential candidates. That
is clearly understood by the staff who are working towards the preparation on
these coming hearings.
The staff work has been done. There is specific site identification of a
number of areas that in the professional opinion of staff, could contribute to
the overall achievement of our commitment under the Endangered Spaces program.
Mr.
Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Chairperson, if we just may revert to
Regional Operations and continue with the line to line for now.
Madam
Chairperson: Okay, are you ready to proceed then line by
line? Item 2. Regional Operations (a)
Headquarters Operations.
Ms.
Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Just briefly, I wanted
to ask, on Regional Operations, with respect to decentralization‑‑if
this is an appropriate time to ask, I want to know whether the decentralization
that was planned for this department has been carried through and whether or
not the department is doing any monitoring of the cost saving or a cost
analysis of what the decentralization is costing, or whether it is cost
effective or the value of the process, and if it is effective, whether the
minister is considering other areas that can be decentralized from this
department.
Mr.
Enns: I should state at the outset that the
Department of Natural Resources is, of course, by its very nature, a very
decentralized department. Much of our
staff in all branches‑‑Parks, Fisheries, Regional Services,
Forestry‑‑has and continues to be located throughout different
communities of
The principle areas of the decentralization
program that I know she is specifically referring to, that are a contribution,
if you like, or part of the 500 to 600 decentralized positions, relate to the
relatively few areas, the major one being the Lands branch movement to Neepawa,
involving some 32 to 34 positions. There is a movement to Niverville and a
movement to Morris. Those latter two have not been undertaken as yet, but they
are still on schedule.
There have been minor changes throughout the
system, some reflecting budgetary pressures, where perhaps a three‑man
office has been reduced to a two‑man office, never without some concern,
as expressed by the citizens of that community.
We find out very quickly that our officers and our staff are held in
high esteem when we go about to remove one of them from some of our
communities.
There have been shifts for emphasis
purposes. We have an imbalance. For instance, I know that the honourable
member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) recently talked in the House about
the Fisheries staff in the southwest area located in
To answer her direct question, the one major
move that the department has been involved in has been the movement of some 30‑plus
positions to Neepawa. We will be
certainly monitoring that situation. We
believe that the move has been made effectively. It seems to be operating well. There are a number of positions, a number of
staff people located in the
(Mr.
Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)
There were some who chose to leave the
employment of the department during that transitional year, but on the other
hand, a number of people from Neepawa and in the surrounding area have, with
some enthusiasm, responded to the personnel requirements of the Lands
branch. I was personally able to visit
the branch when we had a bit of an official opening of the branch. As the member for
* (1000)
Ms.
Wowchuk: Just on the positions for Neepawa, the
minister said there are 30 positions. I
wanted to know whether those 30 positions came from
Mr.
Enns: Positions are all from
Ms.
Wowchuk: Then getting back to the other question that I
asked earlier about cost analysis‑‑the minister may have answered
and I did not hear him. Is there any
monitoring being done to the costs, for example, travel costs, telephone costs,
I understand leasing costs go down when you move into the rural area, but is
there analysis done on the cost of phoning and travelling on this program when
they move to another area?
Mr.
Enns: I appreciate and I have no problem with
dealing with other parts, you know, not necessarily line by line, but the
member will note that the administration costs for the branch are pretty well
the same as last year which would indicate immediately that we are anticipating
no additional costs.
The question of how one monitors‑‑I
am trying to answer a question properly‑‑is, I suppose, a little
difficult to really put your finger on.
I am also aware that people doing business, the general public doing
business with the Lands branch have their costs in accessing it. I suppose you would have to consider that as
well in the equation. There were
certainly some initial costs. We are
obligated to provide a kind of assistance to employees in making the move. There were certainly additional costs in the
installation of communications and computer services into the new facility. My understanding is the actual space costs
are equal or better in Neepawa than they were here in Winnipeg, but I am
confident that the branch is fully operational and that we have a situation of
pretty good morale in the department there.
Ms.
Wowchuk: I just wanted to apologize if I was getting
ahead of lines, but I was just looking at the Regional Operations and wondering
about decentralization generally.
Because when we asked decentralization questions in that department,
they said that we should come and ask the minister directly about particular
departments and that was what I was trying to get at. Anyway, we will wait for
Crown Lands a little later on.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Just a few questions on Regional
Operations. I notice that the two areas
hit by cuts in staffing were Headquarters Operations and Central Region. Can the minister explain why these two areas,
specifically, staff cuts were done this time around?
Mr.
Enns: It was a straight administrative decision to
reorganize the administration of this aspect of the department, the utilization
of some vacancy positions in the engineering branch‑‑no specific
other reasons.
Mr.
Clif Evans: My honourable colleague from
I want to ask the minister: With the importance of Natural Resources
within the Interlake region, can the minister indicate whether in fact there
may be, in the very near future or perhaps next budget, some increased staffing
for the Interlake region as far as Natural Resources officers, field staff‑‑are
there any plans in the near future for any increase of staff?
Mr.
Enns: Well, aside from moving the ministers, deputy
ministers and directors' offices and headquarters to Woodlands,
There, I suspect, may be some further changes
occurring, not just in the Interlake, but we are moving to reinforce the
regional areas within the province under five regional directors. One of them, the Interlake essentially will
have as its regional headquarters, the community of Gimli. I suspect that in the first instance, as I
might indicate to the honourable member, the former director of Fisheries, Mr.
Worth Hayden, whom he may be personally acquainted with, has been appointed the
regional director for the Department of Natural Resources in that region and
has moved to the community of Gimli.
That brings a very senior presence to that
community to represent and integrate the departmental services. The hope is that we can, with our numerous
disciplines, operate more effectively, more directly and have the turnaround of
decisions made somewhat faster by moving to this kind of management
structure. It will be, allow me to take
this moment to indicate, that a similar regional director operating out of The
Pas, Mr. Cook, is it?‑‑Mr. King, pardon me, who is new to the
department, new to the province of Manitoba.
There will be a similar regional director
operating out of
So there is quite a major reorganization that
has occurred within the department in the last two or three months.
Mr.
Clif Evans: As I had requested yesterday, and the
minister indicating all these moves in the senior management positions, I want
to reiterate the fact that I would appreciate a breakdown of all the moves so
that we can deal with it a lot better.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am more than
prepared to see that the honourable member for Interlake receives that
information.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 2.(a) Headquarters
Operations: (1) Salaries $1,776,500‑‑(pass);
(2) Other Expenditures $1,310,000‑‑pass; (3) Problem Wildlife
Control $142,100‑‑pass; (4) Less:
Recoverable from Other Appropriations (Recoverable from
2.(b) Northwest Region: (1) Salaries $1,841,400‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $540,300‑‑pass.
2.(c) Northeast Region: (1) Salaries $1,808,100‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $745,000‑‑pass.
* (1010)
2.(d) Central Region: (1) Salaries $5,220,800‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $1,352,700‑‑pass.
2.(e) Eastern Region: (1) Salaries $2,470,700‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $650,400‑‑pass.
2.(f) Western Region: (1) Salaries $3,961,100‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $1,030,400‑‑pass.
2.(g) Fire Program Development and
Evaluation: (1) Salaries $288,400‑‑(pass);
(2) Other Expenditures $225,900‑‑pass; (3) Grant Assistance $20,400‑‑pass.
2.(h) Fire Pre‑Suppression Program: (1) Salaries $1,613,800.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Chairperson, on the Fire Pre‑Suppression
Program, the minister touched on it a little earlier, but I noticed five staff
cuts in that department in that program.
Can he explain the staff cuts within the Fire Pre‑Suppression
Program?
Mr.
Enns: Again, not unlike what we had to do to
respond to available fiscal resources in the Parks Branch, what we have here
and in the Fire Program that lends itself to that, it is not necessitating the
laying off of any individuals, but it is reducing the time that‑‑these
are casual people that are reduced in time.
Whereas in the previous year we had them employed for a 22‑week
period, we have reduced that to an 18‑week period to affect the
reductions in monies available to us. So
the same number of people is still fighting fires.
Partly we were assisted in doing this because‑‑the
member, he is not blind to the landscape around us‑‑we have,
fortunately, had a much better year than we have had for several years in the
past in terms of weather helping us with moisture, both in the wintertime and
in the green‑up process that we are in.
In total, we have some 180 people employed in this program, and so when
we were faced with the necessity of reducing the overall salary costs to this
program, these are our most experienced firetac crews, we did not lay anybody
off, but we were forced to reduce the time that they were being hired for, I
believe, by several weeks. That shows up
as the decrease that you see.
I should also mention, and I mention it with
some genuine satisfaction that my department does not always, I feel, get
acknowledged. The role that we provide
in employment opportunities to those in our society who, in my judgment, need
the most, namely our aboriginal people, 80‑90 percent of the people we
are talking about here are native people and we are very, very pleased to have
them. They make excellent firefighters
in our, what we call, professional ranks of firefighters. These are the firetac crews that are
associated with the helicopters located in different parts of the province.
These are the people who, if we can get to that fire in its initial start up,
can get to it before it spreads into a major fire that we have the greatest
success in keeping our losses to fire to a minimum.
Mr.
Clif Evans: It is true what the minister says as far as
the program itself with our fortunate weather that we have had.
However, on Other Expenditures, we are looking
at a $300,000 cut. If, in fact, the Pre‑Suppression
Program is so well co‑ordinated and is so important, I must ask: Why the cut in Other Expenditures? Is the minister anticipating the non‑necessity
of certain vehicles or other operating or supplies because of the conditions?
Mr.
Enns: There is a constant pressure on senior
management to find whatever ways possible to contain costs. I am advised that we have been able to effect
some overhead management savings with respect to the operation of our 215 bomber
fleet that amounts to some $200,000 alone.
We are looking and constantly monitoring the travel costs. As the member will appreciate, a good part of
firefighting cost is in travel. We are
moving people around by air, by helicopter, in pretty significant parts of this
province, and so a sharp monitoring of travel costs effects further savings.
Mr. Acting Chairperson, again, I do this maybe
at the risk of not always winning favour with my own Treasury Board or indeed
some of my fellow cabinet ministers. I
think our forest fire people are doing an excellent job. Could they do a better job? Yes, they could
do a better job. When we look at the
efforts at fire suppression that other jurisdictions provide, notably
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 2.(h) Fire Pre‑Suppression
Program: (1) Salaries $1,613,800‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $3,040,600‑‑pass.
(j) Helitac Program: (1) Salaries $313,300‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $1,785,900‑‑pass.
(k) Fire Tac Program: (1) Salaries $198,500‑‑pass.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Just a question on the staff cut here. I imagine in the explanation reflecting a
later recall date for some Fire Suppression crew, the minister I guess
indicating here as he is in the Fire Pre‑Suppression where the time has
been shortened and on recall, if necessary.
Is that correct?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, very specifically, 40
fire rangers in the eastern‑central and western‑northwestern region
have had their employment terms reduced by an average of two weeks. So it is the same business again‑‑contracting. Again, the member understands, other years
where we have had raging fires burning as early as in April and May, this year
we had snow cover and we had damp weather and, understandably, the necessity
for hiring them earlier was not there.
Mr.
John Plohman (Dauphin): I wondered if the minister would prefer,
before we leave this whole area of Regional Services, I deal with the issues of
Larry Williamson's game farm or whether he would prefer it under Wildlife.
Mr.
Enns: Inasmuch as we are dealing with the
department's responsibility in wildlife management, it is neither here or
there, but we could debate it on the next item as we come right to it‑‑[interjection! Resource Programs.
Mr.
Plohman: Mr. Acting Chairperson, as well, we can deal
with the
* (1020)
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 2.(k) Fire Tac
Program: (1) Salaries $198,500‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $1,123,400‑‑pass.
Resolution 105: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty
a sum not exceeding $31,199,700 for Natural Resources, Regional Operations, for
the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
Item 3. Resource Programs (a) Water
Resources: (1) Administration.
Mr.
Plohman: I would like to ask the minister his position
with regard to the town of
The minister may be aware that a number of
years ago, there was an alternative water supply for Dauphin, and it was
developed through PFRA, I believe. It
was the Vermilion Dam, and it was always viewed by the town of
Edwards Lake is viewed as a much better
quality water, and the town council feels very strongly, and I agree with them,
that there is absolutely no reason why the federal government should be trying
to terminate this arrangement. They are
not infringing on the pristine wilderness of the national park. They do not intend to have equipment in
there. They have agreed to a lot of the
conditions that the federal government has put into this subsequent agreement,
but the town of
What they are intending at the latest
agreement proposal by the federal government is 21 years with an option for
renewal of another 21, and since it is retroactive back to 1981, we are already
dealing with the first 21‑year agreement being half over. By the year 2022, that water supply would no
longer exist for the town of
They feel that in looking after the best
interests of their future residents, they cannot sign an agreement that would
give no option after the year 2022. They
want to see this option renewable on every occasion in the future.
Has the minister had any communication on this
issue in support of the town of
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am just awaiting
the presence of our Water Resources Director, Mr. Larry Whitney, who will bring
me some up‑to‑date information on this question, but certainly, in
a more general way, water is a renewable resource. If appropriately managed, it
ought to be available for our use. The fact that Dauphin has had the agreement
with the federal government for these past number of years indicates that it is
not a problem to them. I suppose it is a
question of whether or not the federal government feels that they can continue
that ongoing guarantee. I would
certainly want to support a community such as Dauphin in accessing good and
alternate water supplies.
If the honourable member will allow me for a
moment to consult with my water director, Mr. Larry Whitney, whom I am pleased
to introduce to honourable members, perhaps he can indicate to us some
additional information. The question is
whether we support the town of
Mr. Acting Chairperson, I apologize for the
delay, but it is as I thought. The
director of water services indicates that we very much support the town's contention
to have continued access to
I will undertake to pursue this matter with
our federal partners.
Mr.
Plohman: Thank you for that assurance to the minister.
Mr. Acting Chairperson, since he is indicating
support, has he received any correspondence from the town recently on this? Has
he written any letters or taken any action to support them on this issue? As he knows, it has been ongoing for a number
of years, and they have now submitted another draft, I believe, prior to
February 26.
On February 26, I received a letter saying
they had concerns about this draft, just primarily dealing with the renewal,
the 21‑year thing. Most of the
stuff they are agreeing to, but the issue of the renewal, they do not want to
have it closed after 42 years with one renewal, 21 years and then another
option of 21 and that is the end of it.
They want it to be renewable in perpetuity. They have recently sent me another letter May
13, and I will table that letter for the minister from the mayor. I would like to give a copy to the minister
and have this one back if I could. We
would like the minister to follow up, if he has not already taken some action.
Mr.
Enns: We have no recent correspondence from the town
of
I do not necessarily read into that, unless
there is in fact something on file. That
may well be that the federal government or the Parks Canada people have said
that after our year 2040 or 2050, they have other designs for the use of that
water or that water should not continue to be made available to the town of
Dauphin, then that is a different matter.
Then the policy question or the allocation of access to that water
should be fought out now and determined now for the future benefit of the
residents of Dauphin. If it is just an
administrative kind of lease‑form thing that they have, that they do,
then it may not be as serious as the member has addressed.
* (1030)
Mr.
Plohman: Just to close on this, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
They remind the minister that they were receiving this water supply before the
national park existed and, therefore, should have some rights that go back
before the park existed and, therefore, should continue to receive this water. I think it is more than just an
administrative thing, because they were offering an option for a 21‑year
additional agreement, but they do not say anything beyond that. They could simply add another term, "and
further renewals as may be negotiated," something like that, and might
deal with this issue.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, . . . that advice and
we will pursue it.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Chairperson, if I may ask the
minister and the director of Water Resources, the situation in Ashern, as I am
sure you are aware with the contamination within the village itself, presently
they are attempting to provide or receive funds and work on a program to supply
potable water for the town. What I am
asking is, is Water Resources involved in any way with the
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, our department is, of
course, called upon to provide advice with respect to ground water research and
ground water data, but the member would appreciate that the lead department is
the Department of Environment that is involved here, as they were for instance
at Stony Mountain and the regrettable instance of ground water pollution caused
by the industrial activities of the Bristol plant.
It is essentially my colleague, the Minister
of Environment (Mr. Cummings), who is dealing with this program. Officials from our ground water team are
called upon to provide technical information, but we are not in a position
really to respond too directly to these questions.
Mr.
Clif Evans: This past spring, we have had a fairly
substantial amount more of moisture within our area specifically, that I am
aware of. Traveling this spring
throughout the constituency, I had noticed quite of bit of land water on
property‑‑I would say 300, 400, 500 acres that I saw. I noticed in traveling with councillors and
the people‑‑[interjection!
I was wondering as far as the drainage
situation in and around Meleb, Malonton, north of Arborg, I noticed a lot of
provincial drainage that was not maintained.
I understand that there is some responsibility to the local
municipalities on this. I am just
wondering whether the minister's department has, in fact, been monitoring the
situation with some of the provincial drains to keep them maintained, keep them
satisfactory.
Over the last so many years, there has not
been as much water within the area; there have been no problems. But the last couple of years, and especially
this year, there has been a fair amount that I think are problems. I am wondering where the minister's
department comes into this.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I appreciate the
member's comments. I am advised that
particularly some of those drains that he refers to, some of them are still of
that older vintage that were built by draglines, not the easiest to maintain in
terms of structures as we now build them.
We also, no doubt, have some catch‑up to do in some areas where we
have had previous dry years, more soil drifting and so forth‑‑although
that is part of our constant and annual maintenance program that is carried out
by the department.
The member also must acknowledge that there
will be a period of time where there is standing water on fields. Some of the drainage system is designed to
certain levels, and that is not necessarily damaging to the crop land. Some farmers always like to see it all off in
a hurry, but that is not always the case.
In addition, of course, as the member himself
has indicated, there is the additional responsibility that, No. 1, immediately
next to us that the municipal governments have in providing feeder drains and
something like that. In addition to
that, the individual farmer does not always have appropriate field drainage
that sometimes is required, in particular, geographic shapings of lands to take
advantage of the drains that are in the area whether they are our drains or the
municipality's drains.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I appreciate that. What I am just basically saying is‑‑and
I agree, I mean, speaking to the municipalities and to the individual farmers,
you know, on their responsibilities and what the problems are and the
individual farmers too‑‑but what I am requesting or saying is that
I guess we can perhaps start upgrading the maintenance part of the drainage
system, perhaps look into the parts of the drainage system that the minister
feels are not adequate enough and continue upgrading the system so that‑‑I
mean, there is not a tremendous amount right now. I think it is something that has to be
monitored and kept going with as far as continued maintenance of the drains
that are in place.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I just indicate to the
honourable member that we spend some $3.7 million annually on the maintenance
of our provincial waterways. I have
difficulty in taking offence at the honourable member's remarks, because it is
quite true. We have, over the years,
spent substantial numbers‑‑millions of dollars, $400 million, $500
million‑‑in developing a sophisticated drainage program throughout
the 5.5 million acres of Agro‑Manitoba, and it would be foolish to allow them
to fall into disrepair, nonoperating culverts.
We are, from time to time, using those available sums to us to refine
the system, to correct the system, where they have shown that some modification
would be helpful.
* (1040)
It is an ongoing maintenance program. Many farmers are actively involved in helping
us with that maintenance program by leasing haying rights off of the banks of
the bigger provincial drains. So the question
of whether we could be doing more is always an open one. I am sure if you took my Water Resources
director outside the door here and talked to him privately, he would tell you
we could use a hell of a lot more in this area. We also have some ongoing
capital requirements as well, as the member is well aware, right in his own
backyard that we would like to get at.
As I indicated in my opening statement, hopefully, we will.
I just wish that every once in a while whether
it is the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), or the honourable
member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), or the honourable member for Interlake (Mr.
Clif Evans), or even the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) who is sitting back
there and watching all of this, if every once in a while if they would kind of
muscle past their critics in Health and Education and other ones like that and
remind the members of the Manitoba Legislature, and through them the people of
Manitoba, that the Department of Natural Resources has a very major mandate,
has a very major role to carry out in the overall well‑being and caring
of our natural resources here in the province.
While we are doing that, we make it possible for a lot of other things
to happen, like farmers to get their crops planted and harvested, like people
who enjoy themselves in their parks, never mind all the other things that we
are responsible for.
Thank you, Mr. Acting Chairperson, I wanted to
get that off my chest.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I do not want the minister to get on the
defensive about the questioning. I want
to actually just say that I am very pleased with Mr. Whitney's department. In the questions and the concerns that I have
brought up, his department has been very helpful. I say, realizing the costs and realizing the
budget that you have for that type of work, I think working alongside
municipalities and the people who are affected over a term, not specifically at
a certain time but over a term, to be able to prevent some of the happenings
that are occurring right now, this year and last year, where some of the
farmers were affected with poor drainage. That is all I say, it is working
together. I know that I can come to the
minister's department with a concern and it is being addressed. I want to say that I appreciate that.
As far as the minister, what he got off his
chest, the ball starts right where it is in the minister's office and dealing
with the Treasury Board. If the minister
wants to fight a little bit and get a little backing from some of the rural
members as far as Natural Resources, I think we have a few people here who
could support the minister and his demands.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3.(a) Water
Resources: 3(a)(1) Administration $463,000‑‑pass; (a) Salaries
$302,500‑‑pass; (b) Other Expenditures $110,500‑‑pass;
(c) Grant Assistance $50,000‑‑pass.
3.(2) Water Licensing and Approvals (a)
Salaries $463,800.
Ms.
Wowchuk: I am glad that our critic the member for
Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) raised the issue of the responsibility lying in the
minister's department for getting more funds.
We would support him wholeheartedly if he could get us more money to
help develop the resources in rural
On the issue of licensing, the minister
mentioned that there were drainages that farmers were doing that were perhaps
inadequate. One of the problems that
municipalities are having when it comes to drainage is the length of time it
takes to get their licences to go ahead.
In particular, I have had concerns, and I raised them, I believe, at one
point with the minister and his department, about the R.M. of Minitonas in
particular that has had a drain, in fact, for several years now and has not
been able to get the licence for it.
They want to go ahead with another drainage. They were doing this last year, and there has
been a real backlog in licensing.
I want to ask the minister whether his staff
has looked into that matter and whether the process of getting those licences
processed has been speeded up at all so that municipalities can go ahead with
the drainages that are required.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised that we
do acknowledge that we have had a problem internally in appropriately
responding to these requests. My water
director advises me that in the last short time the reorganization and
particularly the appointment of a regional director in that area will reduce
that turnaround time considerably.
We are specifically aware of the Minitonas
situation, and I am sure that the director will take back as a result of these
questions this morning to the department to doubly ensure that things proceed
this spring.
Ms.
Wowchuk: Just on another issue in my constituency
dealing with water, I want to ask the minister whether his department is doing
any work on it; there were plans for the
I want to ask the minister whether his
department is doing any work on that headwater storage, or have they let the
project die?
Mr.
Enns: Both the honourable member and I are familiar
with the history of that project, and we departmentally do not take issue with
the desirability of the program. We
have, both the administration of the previous government and ours, acknowledged
and have expressed support for the program.
We have regrettably been singularly unsuccessful in getting support for
the project from the federal agency, namely PFRA.
Quite frankly, the $600,000‑$700,000
involved in a project of that nature, and the nature of that project, that we
have always been able to work on 50‑cent dollars with PFRA on these
projects. We have pursued this project
with the feds from time to time, but my director indicates that situation is
still very much the case. The federal
government has not been interested in sharing the costs with us.
Ms.
Wowchuk: Is the minister able to share with us any
correspondence that he has had with the federal government in this project? I appreciate the fact that he says he
supports the project, and I would very much like to see it go ahead,
particularly since I have seen the devastation that the flooding of that river
can do. I believe that the minister has
seen it as well, because he was in the area just after we had the last flood in
1988.
So, I wonder, is it possible that he might be
able to share with us any correspondence that he has had with the federal
government on this particular project?
* (1050)
Mr.
Enns: I certainly undertake and I so instruct my
staff that wherever and whenever specific questions are being asked, we will do
our very best to undertake to see that an answer gets back to the individual
asking these questions whether it is a question with respect to the town of
Dauphin or an undertaking to provide certain information.
For instance, the member for Interlake (Mr.
Clif Evans) wants to see our administrative structure of a restructured branch,
we can do that. In the same case, with
the request from the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), I am advised that
there is no recent correspondence on it, but the time that we were putting
together the last co‑operative funding program with the PFRA, Farming for
Tomorrow program, it was in those negotiations which‑‑perhaps maybe
even simply because it was only a million‑dollar program on their part,
and this program would have been half or three‑quarters of the program,
maybe only for that reason that they did not wish to participate.
Mr. Acting Chairperson, where it makes good
common sense, where the natural landscape lends itself to this kind of
empondment of water, we should be doing it.
I will personally undertake to revisit that program and so direct my
water director that we‑‑if they were not interested three years ago
or four years ago, maybe they are interested today if we ask them again. We
will pursue the issue and invite the honourable member to keep track of me to
see what progress we make.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3.(a)(2) Water
Licensing and Approvals (a) Salaries $463,800‑‑pass; (b) Other
Expenditures $36,000‑‑pass;
Water Licensing and Approvals $499,800‑‑pass.
3.(a)(3) Water Management (a) Salaries
$1,643,500.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Chairperson, just briefly, and this
will sort of refer back to what the minister said about the funding for his
department, can I request the minister in this line regarding
I know the minister has indicated that the
project perhaps will not be started or continued at this point because of other
capital expenses that have incurred. I
would like, for the record, to have the minister indicate to us just what his
plans are, regardless of the funding that he talks about. What are his plans for the
An
Honourable Member: If any.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I guess if any, but I am sure there is. We would like to know. I would like to know and have it on record.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am intimidated by
you being in the Chair yourself, because you have some interests in this
regard. Perhaps the Chair may wish to
remove himself and get into his seat so he can participate in this debate.
The facts of the matter are that we have some
$1.7 million for capital construction in this branch. We are engaged in three or four projects,
plus some smaller ones throughout the province.
We do our very best to issue contracts that make management sense in
terms of scale, but we do have to very often spread them out in a period of two
or three years.
In the case of the
We have the community of Gimli waiting for
many years, a decade, to proceed with the diversion to floodproof that
community. We are proceeding with that
this year, and we will complete it next year.
We have the community of Washow, the Riverton
area‑‑the member for the Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) speaking of‑‑that
is not getting any of that money this year.
But as I indicated to him, it is not quite out of the same
appropriation, but we are committing ourselves to a fairly substantial $270,000
or $300,000 commitment to the bridge replacement on the
In terms of trying to balance where the
available capital funds are going, I have said that is a $300,000 commitment
that you are getting in the constituency of the Interlake; $300,000 that my
colleague is getting in the community of Gimli; $300,000 that my colleague, the
member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), is getting.
They are awaiting that program.
Those are the ways that I best try to proportion out the program
dollars.
I am advised by Mr. Whitney that we have no
problem in supporting the Phase 2 aspect of the
It is a major project. It is in excess of‑‑I am advised
it is in the order of $2.6 million. It
would take a period of four or five years minimal to work on that program. Thank you, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Mr.
Clif Evans: As the minister is well aware, there is
federal money available for that‑‑and municipal money.
Point of Order
Mr.
Enns: I must admit that I was somewhat under the
same impression initially. There is
federal involvement in a land conservation project in that area, but with
respect to the actual capital costs of the project, that is provincial and
municipal money only.
The Acting
Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): The honourable minister does not have a point
of order.
* * *
Mr.
Clif Evans: I want to thank the minister for clarifying
that. Under Water Management, some time
ago the
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised that the
request to undertake a further feasibility study to improve the flood
protection through the diking system is underway in the department.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Specifically in Riverton or throughout the
system?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised that it
is specifically in Riverton as well as two other communities in the area.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Can the minister tell us approximately how
much funding will be available for this specific project?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised, just a
reminder, that there is no money set aside at this point in time for any
capital improvement to the diking system, but this feasibility study in itself
is part of an ongoing investigative work of the department and will probably range
in the order of $20,000.
Mr.
Plohman: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I thought the minister
was going to say he had allocated another $300,000 for that constituency, but
one bridge is about it with that capital program. It is dwindling, it seems, every year. I believe the $l.7 million is certainly not
even scratching the surface of the needs out there. Would the minister agree with that right now
with his capital program of $1.7 million?
* (1100)
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I plead the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr.
Plohman: Yes, you would incriminate yourself. Mr. Acting Chairperson, I know why the
minister is pleading the Fifth Amendment even though we do not have that in
An
Honourable Member: But I have got a Premier here.
Mr.
Plohman: That is right, and I think what the minister
is saying is that he has probably about $10 million forward and he got $1.7
million and it would incriminate him to admit it at this point in time. I guess this has an impact on my constituency
directly. I mean, it impacts every
constituency, but the Dauphin Lake Advisory Board is working with very little
funds. They are an extremely
enthusiastic group who have, I think, tried to make any dollars they have go as
far as possible, and they are very efficient in that regard. There are some studies being undertaken, an
analysis being done on water quality and so on. There are some good things
taking place and, of course, the management plan is being developed and the
final draft is, I believe, almost ready.
It was to be ready earlier this spring but it was not finished, and so
now they were looking to finish it in June.
Has the minister set a date when he would be
receiving this management plan from the advisory board? Is the meeting date set with them on this?
Mr.
Enns: I have not set a specific date, although I
have just in the last weeks requested from the department that we examine not
only within our own department but also sister departments like the Environment
department that has, from time to time, some funds under its Environmental
Innovations Fund that can and perhaps ought to be applied to some of the future
programming in the Lake Dauphin situation.
I regret that I do not have for the member at this particular time, you
know, precisely the undertaking, the funding that we will be providing to the
I continue to remain extremely optimistic and
dedicated to making that project work.
It is such an important and inclusive kind of project involving the
different disciplines of government, from Agriculture, from water resource
management, wildlife resource management, fisheries, soil erosion; it
represents the kind of challenge, in my judgment, that puts words that we utter
all too easily, sustainable development and things like that, into practical
being.
As I indicated to the group, when we got it
off the ground finally a few years ago, it is not going to be corrected
overnight, but I feel if we do the right things now and persist in doing them over
the next 10 or 12 years there will be an appreciable improvement to the natural
landscape affected. Now that is going to
take persistence; it is going to take continued attention to it. I appreciate the member's prodding on that,
quite frankly.
It is the kind of program that sometimes, you
know, my engineers do not get that excited about it. We like to get our hands into mixing
concrete, steel, build a dam or divert water, and then we have accomplished
something. But in this case we are
trying to begin to change attitudes.
We are trying to ask farmers to farm
differently, particularly as they encroach on the rivers and streams and creeks
that feed into Lake Dauphin, that add to the tremendous siltation problem that
we have. Then and only then would we be
prepared to look at some of the major capital projects that look at some
channel improvements about the water management of the lake. Then and really only then can we talk about
maybe the desirability of raising or maintaining higher levels of water in the
lakes.
These projects are very much there. We are aware of them. We are hopeful that
year by year we can make steady progress in achieving them. Thank you, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Mr.
Plohman: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I can assure the minister
that he is sending the wrong message when he does cut the half‑time
position that they had, the clerical position, that was available to the
board. Certainly a small expenditure
like that goes a long way to sending a message to the board that their work is
important, and theirs is a small contribution that the minister is prepared to
make to ensure that that work continues.
They have done a lot on the awareness side of
it, in changing attitudes and educating.
The Awareness Centre, for example, has been a tremendous success. As a matter of fact, they have the school
involved in doing a mural on the outside of it, and it has got a lot of people
involved‑‑on this trailer that they move. It is a mobile Awareness Centre. That has been a tremendous success, so I
think there have been some very good things being done. The water quality monitoring that is taking
place is an extensive sampling, 47 locations in the area. So that is a major step and it is important.
But there are a lot of capital things that
could be done even with limited dollars.
You know, demonstration sites; it was suggested a model riparian zone,
construct one for demonstration purposes.
They could put in place velocity control or spawning structures. You could improve the fish passage of the
If the minister could put even a portion of
the $300,000 that he said he was allocating to different areas of the province,
$300,000 here in that constituency, $300,000 in Gimli; if he could put even a
small portion of that for the Dauphin Lake Advisory Board, they could do
wonders with it.
Of course, use those dollars to lever other dollars. As the minister knows, there are many other
possibilities. What about the Green
Plan? Should there be dollars there? It seems to me that would be a natural, and
The North American Waterfowl Plan, the private monies that are available. I just wonder whether the minister has taken
initiatives, and I do not want to provoke a long debate on this, because we do
have limited time, but I do want to indicate that I hope he will explore those
other avenues with his staff, so they can really start to deal with some of
these concrete and steel things, or some things that will actually be seen,
that the engineers like to get their hands into, as the minister said, without
having to spend a lot of provincial taxpayers' money to do it. But he has to use some dollars to lever those
other dollars.
Mr.
Enns: Well, Mr. Acting Chairperson, I take issue
with nothing of what the honourable member says and support the comments that
he makes. I want to advise him that we
will look into even the detailed matter of clerical support for the board. I am
suggesting‑‑it has been suggested by my deputy minister that that
would be provided through the restructured regional offices there.
Certainly it is my intention‑‑I
only regret that I do not have it available for discussion at this moment‑‑but
it is certainly my intention to put together a package of money from my
department, from different aspects of my department including, if need be, my
special conservation fund, the lottery funds that I have, to try to lever money
out of the Minister of Environment's (Mr. Cummings) shop and/or the federal
Green Plan, all of the suggestions that the honourable member makes.
* (1110)
We will be very shortly putting together a
program again for the coming year that will, I hope, come in the area of the
funds that the member talks to. But if
we do it‑‑and I do appreciate the member for Dauphin's, what I
consider to be, responsible support of this program. He understands, having been a former minister
of this department, the scope and scale that we can address any single problem
with the kind of budgets that we are working at. But things nonetheless can be achieved if we
go in $150,000, $200,000 or $300,000 increments over a period of 10 or 12 years,
and at the same time, other attitudinal changes in agricultural practices are
being undertaken. We can, as I challenge
my staff virtually on every morning that I greet them: What are we going to do
to change the landscape of
Now that frightens the be‑something out
of some people, like maybe the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli),
who thinks that I am out to build another dam somewhere, but the honourable
member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) knows what I am talking about. When I am talking about changing the landscape
of Manitoba, it means making it just a more comfortable, a more natural place
for man and beast, maybe a place where the wind does not erode the soil as
quickly, maybe a place for the sparrow to land on a twig on a tree, maybe a
tree that does not burn.
In amongst that natural environment, at the
same time, I can keep my engineers happy and let them find things to do, you
see, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Ms.
Wowchuk: A very brief question on water
management. One of the issues that has
arisen is the level of
I want to ask the minister whether a decision
has been made on
Mr.
Enns:
That seems to be the case, as well, with
We have proposed and instructed the department
likewise not to interfere with the natural level of
Ms.
Wowchuk: Just a clarification, were those sandbags
removed naturally, or did they get a little help? What happened to the sandbags?
Mr.
Enns: Well, I think I should plead the Fifth
Amendment again, but I understand, they were removed naturally.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3.(a) Water
Resources: (3) Water Management (a)
Salaries $1,643,500‑‑pass; (b) Other Expenditures $162,100‑‑pass;
(c) Waterway Maintenance $3,897,600‑‑pass; Total Water Management
$5,648,200‑‑pass. That was
with the Less: Recoverable from Other
Appropriations $55,000‑‑pass.
3.(4) Hydrotechnical Services: (a) Salaries $1,207,800‑‑pass;
(b) Other Expenditures $950,600‑‑pass; For a total of $2,158,400‑‑pass.
4.(b) Parks and Natural Areas: (1) Administration (a) Salaries $563,300.
Mr.
Enns: A two‑minute break? Five minutes?
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Is it the will of the
committee that we take a five‑minute break? We will reconvene at 21 minutes after 11.
* * *
The
committee took recess at 11:16 a.m.
After
Recess
The
committee resumed at 11:22 a.m.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): We will bring the
committee back to order.
Item 3.(b) Parks and Natural Areas: (1)(a) Salaries $563,300.
Mr.
Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I just want to ask some questions about the
Kenosewun Centre in
Mr.
Enns: I am pleased to indicate to the honourable
member that my Parks director, Mr. Gordon Prouse, whom I would like to
introduce at this time to honourable members‑‑I think he is known
to most of you‑‑has indicated to me that we are in the final
process of concluding a lease to provide for the continued use of that facility
as a native educational centre for the group that he is inquiring about. That is being proceeded with.
Mr.
Dewar: Well, I am very pleased to hear that. Can the minster tell us the length of that
lease? What is the time period?
Mr.
Enns: I am advised that it is a five‑year
lease with a renewal clause built into it, that if it is still providing the
function for the people requesting it, they would be in a position to renew
that lease within that five‑year period for an additional five years.
Mr.
Dewar: When will the Manitoba Indian Cultural
Education Centre find out about this arrangement?
Mr.
Enns: My Parks director advises me that they are
already aware that this is in its final stages and certainly will receive
official confirmation of this within the next short period of time. I suppose that when the actual signatures to the
lease are affixed and concluded, that would then make it official. Are we talking the next week or so? I am advised, certainly by the end of June,
by the end of this month, which is imminent.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): We will carry on. Item 3.(b) Parks and Natural Areas: (1) Administration (a) Salaries $563,300‑‑pass;
(b) Other Expenditures $181,500‑‑pass; (c) Grant Assistance
$131,700‑‑pass. That makes a
total of $876,500 for (1) Administration‑‑pass.
3.(b)(2) Management and Development (a)
Salaries $525,200.
Mr.
Clif Evans: On Expected Results, "Project management
for
Mr.
Enns: Well, Mr. Acting Chairperson, the member I
know is fully aware of ongoing activity at the
The current conclusion or completion of some
of the construction that has taken place‑‑or renovations and
reconstruction‑‑in the last few years will be completed, hopefully,
in the next very short while. We are
scheduling for a bit of an event, an opening if you like, which I am pleased to
invite my honourable friend, the critic of the New Democratic Party, Her
Majesty's official opposition, to represent his constituency for an opening
scheduled for July 18.
The member may wish to make note of it. It happens to coincide with National Parks
Day, and the Parks Branch is wanting to use that occasion where we acknowledge
parks right across this Dominion of Canada, but to use that as a suitable occasion
for some more formal ceremonies that will indicate to the community what is
being further planned in that provincial park.
I might also add that on that day it is free
entry to all our provincial parks as a gesture on the part of this government
and minister to encourage and to increase the public awareness of our parks
system generally, not just at Hecla, but throughout the province, and to
encourage Manitobans to enjoy the natural environment that our parks provide
for, not only our own citizens, but the large number of visitors that come and
visit us.
It may be of interest to note that we logged
some 5 million visitors to our parks system annually. That is sometimes forgotten when we come to
recognize the need for the ongoing maintenance and the work that needs to be
done to make our parks acceptable and enjoyable for the many visitors who come
through our system every year.
Mr.
Clif Evans: The discussions that have been in place
regarding the
Can the minister update us as to what he is
doing with this, if anything? What do we
foresee?
* (1130)
Mr.
Enns: I am pleased to report specifically to the
member's question that as late as a week ago Monday I had occasion to be in
Ottawa and meet with the federal minister, Minister Browes, specifically on
this issue, as well as other issues. As
I indicated earlier, we are having a National Parks Conference in
What this offers me to comment on is how the
Endangered Spaces Program that we spoke about a little while ago with the
honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) is interrelated with the Parks
issues facing us.
The federal government views it in the same
way. In the federal government's
commitment to the Endangered Spaces Program, they recognize that their
commitment to it is largely through their Parks Canada system of parks across
this nation representing different regional, geographic areas that meet the
criteria of the Endangered Spaces Program.
Hecla Park and surrounding area‑‑I
might add it is not restricted to Hecla Park‑‑meets one of the
criteria of being representative of what we refer to as the Manitoba lowlands
region and as such is a candidate for consideration under the Endangered Spaces
Program, is a candidate very much so on the part of the federal government as
an addition to their national parks system.
I am pleased to report that as a result of my meeting with Minister
Browes two Mondays ago, I have authorized the department to proceed with what I
consider to be the first step and this is, I think, directly to answer the
member's question as to what the provincial minister is doing now.
He is right, it is in my court right now. We have indicated that we are prepared to
enter into the first phase, which is a feasibility study that will examine the
pros and cons of the desirability of whether or not
Mr.
Clif Evans: As the minister has indicated, there are pros
and cons now, and there are going to be pros and cons on a continued
basis. When the feasibility study has
been agreed to and signed, I am sure‑‑I would like the minister to
indicate that, will his department be consulting with all peoples concerned
with the changeover if that is what is going to occur? Is there going to be
intensive consultation‑‑I think the minister knows what I am
getting at‑‑with the communities, with the peoples, with everyone
as to the feasibility and as to the pros and cons with the changeover if it
does occur?
Mr.
Enns: I am pleased to have that concern expressed by the honourable
member for the Interlake who, after all, is close to the scene, has to live
with the communities and with the people affected, unlike my friend of the
Liberal Party the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) who just a little earlier
was chastising me for not just quickly making these decisions, decisions
because somebody in Montreal or somebody here in the city of Winnipeg had a wish
list of land to be designated. The
honourable member, who, I think, is rooted a little deeper in plain common
sense and an understanding of his people, knows that is not the way governments
should do, and I think what he is telling this minister and my Parks Branch is
that is not the way we should do it. We
should only do it, we should only consider it, after we have given ourselves
and our citizens a chance to examine exactly what it means, and that is
precisely what we will be doing and undertaking this fall.
I can assure the honourable member we will be
in his community, where his people, individuals and organizations, whether it
is town councillors or other interested groups or independent logging interests
and quota holders and farmers, have an opportunity to examine what it means, to
fully appreciate what it means, to be designated a federal park, because that
is quite a difference from what it is to be a provincial park where we have the
control of what takes place or does not take place. It is only then that we can, with some
confidence, know that we move in a direction that the majority of citizens want
us to move.
I look to that kind of understanding and
support from members from the New Democratic Party at least, and not be pushed
or chased by other critics into making hasty decisions. These are very serious designations of land
and can affect the livelihoods of individuals and future economic activity in a
given region, so I appreciate the member's question on this support. I look forward to his participation at these
hearings, certainly as they affect the Interlake area, and to work with him as
we move towards a close examination of the
Mr.
Clif Evans: Thank you very much for that response, Mr.
Minister. If I may on this area, and I
see that it is further down, but while I have been talking about
Mr.
Enns: I am going to whisper this because I do not
want the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) to hear me, but
I can report to you that the skill and diplomacy of my deputy minister have
come to the fore in a short little while. He has had confidential discussions
with the deputy minister of Highways. It
has been indicated to me that we are, in fact, going to do something about
completing that portion of the road. We will commence this year with a two‑phase
program, and hopefully try to conclude the improvements to that road to the
Gull Harbour Resort.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3. Resource
Programs, (b) Parks and Natural Areas:
(2) Management and Development (a) Salaries $525,200‑‑pass;
(b) Other Expenditures $186,300‑‑pass; Management and Development
$711,500‑‑pass.
3.(b)(3) Program Services (a) Salaries
$281,300.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Under this line, I notice that the minister has
under Expected Results: "Develop
and implement procedures to access a "Chief Place of Residency" fee
to cottagers who utilize their vacation home as their chief place of
residence." Can the minister
indicate to me how he is going to do that, and what is he going to do?
* (1140)
Mr.
Enns: Just a very brief history: it is a concern particularly in some specific
areas, notably our Clearwater Lake Provincial Park up in The Pas, where a
growing number of residents in the area are, in fact, using their park's
residence as their year‑round residence and, at the same time, availing
themselves of the services in the communities‑‑whether it is
schools, libraries, other community services that are found‑‑and
escaping and not contributing any taxation base to these services.
It is under those kind of pressures that, from
a point of fairness, I did in fact introduce a measure to request or indeed to
make it legally responsible for permanent residents to pay a fee. The failure of not having the kind of usual
assessment take place that all of us experience on our farms, our homes and our
residences, an arbitrary fee of $500 was referred to.
Again, just as I have indicated earlier, I
have agreed voluntarily to withdraw that legislation for the time being because
I expect this to be one of the items that certainly those who enjoy our parks,
who cottage in our parks, will want to discuss with the committee when we are
having these hearings.
It was presented to me very forcibly that to
move ahead kind of arbitrarily with the amendments to the Parks act now would,
in effect, kind of take away from the importance of those fall hearings. We would stand accused of making decisions
before listening to the people concerned.
I have been able to prevail upon my caucus that although this is a
revenue item of some concern to us and growing numbers of people, there are the
two categories: those who are using
their cottages as principal residences but who are leasing them from us in the
park system; then, we have another group who have isolated little islands of
private land, particularly in the Whiteshell area, whose land was never
absorbed as part of the park but live right within the park and enjoy all the
services that we provide, and pay nothing at all for that privilege.
Once they have found out that, in fact, by law
we do not have the ability to collect, our list of uncollectibles is growing,
particularly at a time when the overall park system can use every dollar that
they get when we have upwards to several hundred thousand dollars not being
collected in this manner, and obviously the unfairness of it. I mean, I am getting calls from other people
who pay their $400 or $500 regular park fee to the department, and their
neighbour, enjoying the same facilities in the park, is not paying anything to
it. That inequity needs to be corrected.
I think the right decision was made to
withdraw from trying to resolve that issue during the course of this
Legislature, but certainly that ought not to be misread by those who will be
affected, that the government has given up on its determination to correct this
inequity.
We will be correcting it in the new Park Lands
Act that will result hopefully for presentation in the coming Session, as a
result of these fall hearings.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I think I might just add to the minister's
reaction to Bill 21. I want to put on
record that I feel that there are questions to be answered and there are issues
to be questioned to this whole‑‑The consultation, I feel, is where
the minister perhaps missed when he decided to bring the bill to this
House. Consultation, and the minister
knows, I would be the first one to acknowledge anything being done by the
minister if there was proper consultation, as we are talking about Hecla
Island, and as we are talking about the cottagers.
If the consultation is there so that everybody
can agree, I think that is where the minister missed the whole ball game on
that point. That is my belief, hearing
that from cottagers because hearing what I heard from cottagers, I was found to
be supportive of their ideas, and, in fact, they were not totally against what
the minister wanted to do. It was how
the minister wanted to do it.
I think that the minister will continue to
consult with all the parties responsible for a change, then that is the way to
go. I hope that comes through.
If I may‑‑and I notice that the
Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has left‑‑while I am on
this line I would like to ask the minister, in the last year or year and a
half, there have been some concerns raised by Wallace Lake cottage owners,
requests to meet with you, with the minister, with the deputy minister, with
the Minister of Northern Affairs, his deputy minister. I know they have met with his deputy
minister.
There are continued requests to meet with the
minister to discuss their issues that they have. I am asking, has the minister responded to
their requests to sit down with the
Mr.
Enns: In the past, I have met with representatives
of the
I am aware that the
The community of Bissett feels very strongly
about that campground. As a tourist
attraction, it is bringing some economic activity to their community, and
people that come and visit that area and have a place to camp overnight.
My understanding in the main is that it has
worked out reasonably satisfactorily. I
expect‑‑and again, this process of examining strategy and land use,
and what we do in our parks and campgrounds and natural areas, that
communities, special interest groups like the Wallace Lake cottage owners, will
avail themselves to the same hearings that I keep alluding to and make their
views known in a very forceful way to us in that way.
Certainly, if they have a particular request
to meet with me directly, I have no objection to doing that.
Mr.
Clif Evans: The minister feels or says that he is not
really aware of any specific problems that
I would appreciate and will take back to them
the fact that you have indicated on record that you would meet with them. I know that they have requested these
meetings, and I will inform them that you are more than willing to sit down
with them and at least hear them out as to their concerns so that everybody can
be at a level of satisfaction.
* (1150)
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would like to say
to the honourable member for Interlake that certainly there is no difficulty in
meeting with the representatives of the Wallace Lake Cottage Owners
Association. My understanding is that
they have for understandable reasons been dealing more directly with the
Department of Northern Affairs at which some of the issues involving my
department as well have been raised, but I give that undertaking to the
honourable member that we can do that.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3.(b)(3) Program
Services (a) Salaries $281,300‑‑pass; (b) Other Expenditures
$60,000‑‑pass. For a total
in Program Services of $341,300‑‑pass.
3.(b)(4) Park Operations and Maintenance (a)
Salaries $8,209,500. Shall the item
pass?
Mr.
Clif Evans: I have just one question on this, on
Salaries, under Professional and Technical, an increase of some $479,000 in
salaries. Can the minister just indicate,
is that just a year‑to‑year‑‑you are looking at a
$500,000 increase in salaries there. Can
you explain that?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is attributable
to the MGEA annual salary increase within the department. It involves heavy, heavy staff salaried
component of the department.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I do want to make just a comment on this line
and Other Expenditures and that area, that I am rather pleased to see that
there is somewhat of an increase to Other Expenditures within that area to maintain
the Park Operations and Maintenance. As
I mentioned in my opening comments, maintaining the Operations and Maintenance
improves the enhancement of tourism within our parks system. So I just want to make that one comment on
that.
The Acting
Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3.(b)(4)(a) Salaries $8,209,500‑‑pass;
(b) Other Expenditures $2,973,100.
Ms.
Wowchuk: I just wanted to ask one question on Park
Operations. I am glad that the Minister
of Highways (Mr. Driedger) is here as well because there are several wayside
parks that have been turned over from the Department of Natural Resources to
the Department of Highways. I want to
ask the minister, when those parks are turned over, are the standards
maintained? Does the Department of Natural
Resources have any input into overseeing that these parks are maintained at the
standard that they were, or does that responsibility completely fall to the
local Highways Department to decide on what is going to happen in these parks?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised that in
fact some will be substantially upgraded because the minister, the
compassionate minister that he is, and his concerns for, for instance, the
truck traffic that may often avail themselves as a rest stop, they will be
upgraded to accommodate some of the trucking traffic that he has a more
specific concern for. The net result
should be that the standards, the maintenance should be as good as and, in some
instances, better.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 3.(b)(4)(b) Other
Expenditures $2,973,100‑‑pass.
Park Operations and Maintenance, a total of
$11,182,600‑‑pass.
Item 3.(b)(5) Visitor Services (a) Salaries
$323,800.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I see there is a cut in staff there:
nonrecurring staff here is associated with the parks heritage program. Can you explain that?
Mr.
Enns: There is a reduction of a historic resource
planner position and a further deletion of one resource extension officer
position. These were in both instances
vacancies, but the actual positions account for the reduction recorded in the
printed Estimates.
Mr.
Clif Evans: If I may on this line just ask the minister
what his intentions are with some of the campgrounds that he has indicated, one
earlier, the Wallace campground and others along that stretch? Has he in fact passed that over to private
lease holders?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we have been engaged
for a number of years now, and I think with the honourable member for Dauphin
(Mr. Plohman) in his chair, he will acknowledge that the department has been
pursuing, I think, a cautious examination of where these wayside parks and
smaller facilities lend themselves to being operated either by the community or
by private individuals. We have pursued
that course, and we have a steady examination‑‑we are not on a
crash course to divest ourselves of any specific given number of facilities,
but where suitable arrangements can be made they are being made, and a number
of these have been done over the past 18 months. I will refer to just several of them. They are Wanipigow Campground, the Wallace
Lake Campground, English Brook Campground, Currie Landing Wayside, Birch Falls
Wayside, the Manigotagan Wayside.
There are others that have taken place
earlier, like Norquay Beach Campground situated on the
So that program we will consider. We search out opportunities where they exist
for transferring these facilities into private hands or into community
hands. We have earlier on, just as we
did at Bissett‑‑it happens to be the Bissett Development
Corporation which is essentially a local public body that has undertaken
operation of the campgrounds. Another
one was the LGD in the
* (1200)
It is a combination of interests that we feel
can carry on the management and service provided in these parks. We are very strict in the adherence to the
criterion that the facility continue to provide service to the motoring public
in these areas. We are not interested in
simply‑‑if we were just interested in divesting ourselves of these
responsibilities, then we would not, quite frankly, give a care if somebody
bought the land to subdivide it or use it to put a private home on it or
something like that. No, the guiding
criterion for consideration is an assurance that these facilities continue to
provide the kind of service that the motoring public throughout
Mr.
Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I just want to expand
on what the minister said as far as maintaining the services and the condition
of these wayside parks. Will his
department‑‑and I am sure it will‑‑be monitoring the
conditions and the services within those parks that will maintain as under the
Parks department itself?
Whoever does have the leases on these wayside
campgrounds and parks as such that they are monitored and they do provide for
the tourists, for the motorists, the conditions and the services that were
maintained under the Natural Resource department?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, certainly those
properties‑‑and a number of them are‑‑where we continue
to lease and they are the operators operating on our land, on leased land, that
kind of ongoing monitoring supervision will take place.
There are some facilities, a few where an
outright sale of the property is involved.
There, again, we do not have that kind of final authority, if you like. In the sale of the property, it is only
considered if demonstrable evidence is provided that that person wishes to
carry on the use of that land for that facility.
By that, I mean he has to present us with
plans of expansion, plans of enhancing, putting in more camping facilities,
maybe even more capital projects like a shower and so forth, facilities in the
projects. Only then do we consider
transferring that into private hands.
Now, once transferred, it is transferred. I cannot guarantee that they will always be
used for those purposes. But one makes
the logical conclusion that what initially attracted the party to the property
in the first instance is potential as a small business, if you like, to provide
this kind of service to the motoring public.
Mr.
Clif Evans: The campgrounds and the parks that the
minister had mentioned earlier, there was an open tender for this, and can he
indicate if there were many applications to this? Really, what is the minister's staff looking
for when applications are made to the department?
Mr.
Enns: There is a pretty comprehensive package
consisting of anywhere up to 10 to 15 pages that is put together by the
department. It is advertised usually in
the local papers. Applicants, interested parties put forward their response to
the tendering process. The department
then assesses the applications, and, in the best judgment of the department,
awards the winning applicant.
I indicate to you again that it is not
necessarily the best monetary applicant, submission that will be selected. As I have said several times now, we have a
continuing interest that we are satisfied that the applicant can, in fact,
provide the best possible ongoing service of these campgrounds for which they
were originally intended.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Is it then by the tendering process and you
feel that the applicant who received the tender‑‑is it a
coincidence or is it the fine work of the successful applicant to receive the
tender happening to be the same as at Wallace Lake campground? Is that just a
coincidence? Is that your department's
decision that the applicant in fact was the right party to undertake this
tendering?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I myself have
personally taken a very serious interest in this matter. The department presented to government some
time ago, several years ago, a convincing case that they could better make use
of their resources if, in fact, a planned and prudent approach of divestiture
of some of these obligations that were a drain on the party's resources; as I
said earlier, in some of these cases, stations are very low and limited; it was
expensive to the department to maintain.
The department made the case to our government that they could, with
confidence, find private and/or local governments and/or development
associations to continue the maintenance and the operation of these departments
as well as they were doing themselves.
It is that kind of basic criteria that overrides other conditions that
makes it a little different than a straight tendering process.
If we were just simply selling or leasing raw
land, then the decision is very easy:
the highest bidder gets the campground or the park. But, when the Parks director tells me and
refers to the comprehensive 12‑15 page proposal package that is involved
in each instance, that underlines the point that I am trying to make. It is not simply a matter of the Parks Branch
walking away from a facility that they have been operating up to now. We examine at some considerable depth. We take our time about assuring ourselves
that the proponent can, in fact, and is eager to and is willing and has the
resources to continue to operate the facility in a fashion that would be
acceptable to most Manitobans.
Thank you.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Can the minister indicate to us, when all the
applications are put in, does his department meet with the applicants and
discuss the tender and the process and the application? Is that part of the process? Does the minister's department meet with
people who apply?
* (1210)
Mr.
Enns: Certainly, I know that different procedures
take place. Sometimes in the advertising
of a facility, we have in effect an open house.
We invite interested people to come and view the facility before they
even apply. So they come down and Parks
representatives will be there. They are
given data with respect to its past operation.
The interested parties know exactly what they are bidding on, if there
are some capital structures on the facility, the exact acreage involved. Parks kind of opens up their books to them in
terms of past visitation rates, and then these parties go back and send in
their proposal. I would assume that the
Parks Branch then evaluates them or, if need be, calls individuals back in for
further clarification, but that is then done in a very open and very public
manner.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I asked specifically:
Did the minister's department meet personally with applicants after their
applications were put in? Did the
minister's department go over with the applicants their tender and discuss it?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised that the
department answers any and all questions that any applicant has and has done
so, but we do not automatically or have scheduled meetings with all applicants. An application comes in, we assess it and we
make our decision.
Mr.
Clif Evans: So what you are saying then is if an
applicant would request after his tender has been put in before the tender was
granted to anyone, the department would meet with him at their request.
Mr.
Enns: Yes.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Visitor Services (a)
Salaries $323,800‑‑pass.
(b) Other Expenditures $65,300.
Mr.
Clif Evans: I know we do not have that much time, but I
would like to bring‑‑under Expected Results: "Administer parks commercial operations
program and initiate implementation of the revised commercial lease."
I would like to discuss and ask the minister‑‑when
I had, last session, in July, questioned the minister on the process that had
been dealt with, with commercial leasing operations at
Can the minister indicate to me where his
department is with Commercial Concessions?
Mr.
Enns: I am sorry, Mr. Acting Chairperson, I just
did not get the final part.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Can you indicate to me where you are with
Commercial Concessions to date?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we have a claim
before the department for compensation for, I guess, cancellation of their
former concession lease that they had with us.
That dispute is currently‑‑my advice from my staff people
are that is currently being discussed between the lawyers for Commercial
Concessions Services Ltd. and our lawyers.
It has not come to the courts as such.
I gather, at this point in time, it is our hope that we can resolve the
issue to our mutual satisfaction.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Has the minister and his department received
any request from Commercial Concessions to meet with them and discuss this
whole issue?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, Mr. Hannon, who is our
legal representative representing the department, has met back on or about the
week of February 10 with representatives, legal and otherwise, of these people,
Commercial Concessions Services Ltd., and will continue to be meeting with them
in terms of trying to resolve the issue between us.
Mr.
Clif Evans: Mr. Acting Chairperson, you say back in
February‑‑well, this was brought to the minister's attention or to
the department's attention almost two years ago, as a matter of fact right
after the tendering process was completed and a new lease was issued to a
different party.
My question is: I am wondering why this had to go to any sort
of legal situation, when Commercial Concessions had indicated that they were
more than willing to discuss the whole issue with the Department of Natural
Resources, with the Parks Branch and resolve it at the time that the whole
changeover had occurred. They have not
received any positive response from the department. I wonder why.
Why does it have to go before lawyers?
Mr.
Enns: I am advised that we did not begin the legal question to this
thing. We were called upon by a lawyer
representing Commercial Concessions Services Ltd. That initiative was taken on their part. There is a dispute. Our understanding of the dispute, of course,
is fairly straightforward that a concession, previously held by Commercial
Concessions Services Ltd., was mutually agreed to terminate in the order so
that new proposals could be called. The
presumption that Commercial Concessions Services Ltd. would win the new
tendering or proposal call was a presumption that was made on his part, not
substantiated nor supported through the proposal and tendering call process.
The Commercial Concessions Services Ltd.
believes they have a grievance and they are addressing it. We, quite frankly, do not believe they have a
grievance. We believe we dealt fairly
and honourably with them. We have met
with the principals involved, we are meeting now with the legal people
representing ourselves. When Commercial Concessions came up with a lawyer, we
then turned to legal advice as well, but let me be very clear where we
began. We do not believe we are in
error. We do not believe we owe
Commercial Concessions anything. We
believe that the department acted according to our normal operational practices
and Commercial Concessions Services understandably feels aggrieved that they
were not the successful winner in a bid, in a tendering bid, on a proposal call
and is trying to recover what they believe to be some costs.
* (1220)
Mr.
Clif Evans: The minister then, is he indicating to me
that through the tendering process, and I believe that there were four or five
applicants in total for this concession, the tender itself, the requirements
and the people who did want to enter their tender were all made aware of the
requirements‑‑let us put it another way. If there is a tender out and there are five
different people who are putting in bids for it, were they all aware of the
requirements put out by your department?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I have been more than
forthcoming and candid, I believe, in my discussion with these Estimates. I do want to be somewhat cautious here,
because this has the potential or elements of it ending up in court. It is not there now, and I hope it does not
get there. So I have to be somewhat
prudent in terms of what I put on the record.
I simply say to the honourable member that,
unlike a highways contract or another more definable kind of project where the
tendering system can be very readily understood and accepted‑‑low
tender wins, period‑‑we are dealing here more so‑‑and
that is why we use the term "proposal calls." A proposal call is a little more complex to
sort out.
In the final analysis, I accept the advice of
my Parks director, of my Parks people, who say to me, Mr. Minister, this
proposal offers the best opportunity for the operation of the concessions and
the kinds of things that we as the Parks Branch want to see happen at
Mr.
Clif Evans: As I am aware, once Commercial Concessions did
not get the bid, get the tender as such, there was a question of
leasehold. As for some of the
improvements that Commercial Concessions had done in equipment and other things
to improve the service to the people in the
I understand there was supposed to be a
walkabout. I understand that walkabout
was not held, and, of course, there were no set values put on anything between
the department and Commercial Concessions.
I only ask and say that I feel, in my discussions, that the whole matter
would not probably have had to go as far as it is now had the minister's
department sat with himself and his department and Commercial Concessions to
resolve this issue.
I do want to ask the minister
specifically: When a tender came up, was
it because the previous lease had expired, or was it because of any problems
with the leaseholder at the time?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I alluded earlier to
the fact that the changed arrangements with respect to the lease at
I want to be careful what I put on the record,
but I repeat, they were gambling that they would be the winners of a different
proposal, of an enhanced opportunity with respect to concession services at
I also want to put on the record‑‑and
that really is the dispute. The member,
in his previous question, indicated about some leasehold improvements. The department is acknowledging that there is
some responsibility on the part of the department to compensate for them, and
that is what is at issue.
I am not at liberty to indicate what level we
are talking about, but I am aware that our legal representative, Mr. Hannon, is
negotiating with Commercial Concessions Services Ltd.'s lawyer, the actual
amounts that are in dispute with respect to the leasehold improvements that the
previous lessor made to the facilities.
Mr.
Clif Evans: You say that Commercial Concessions requested
the breaking of the lease to be able to reapply for the new tender. Is that in writing?
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I could not undertake
to say whether that is in writing, but I am extremely confident when my staff
advises me that this was a mutually agreed‑upon changing of the status of
the lease that I accept that to be a fact.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Okay, we will continue
here.
Item 3.(b)(5) Visitor Services (b) Other
Expenditures $65,300‑‑pass; total Visitor Services $389,100‑‑pass.
3.(c) Lands:
(1) Administration (a) Salaries $165,200‑‑pass; (b) Other
Expenditures $20,000‑‑pass; (c) Grant Assistance $6,000‑‑pass;
total Administration $191,200‑‑pass.
3.(c)(2) Crown Lands Administration (a)
Salaries $549,900.
Ms.
Wowchuk: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the minister has said
that he is looking at ways to have people who are living in parks pay their
fair share of rent for the services and is going to be doing some consulting on
this now that the bill is not going to be passed.
I want to ask if the minister, at the time he
is doing that consulting, is also going to be looking into the matter of people
who are living on Crown lands that are not within parks. We have raised this matter before, and it is
a matter that has been raised at municipal councils, by rural councils, that
there are people who are living on Crown lands but municipalities have no
ability to collect the fees from them.
So I wonder if the minister is also going to
be giving that some consideration when he is looking at the parks fees.
* (1230)
Mr.
Enns: I think what we are trying to arrive at is
just some fairness. None of us
particularly like to see additional taxes imposed upon us, but when you have
situations where your neighbour or other neighbours are using the tax‑paid
facilities of a community, then we should be concerned about devising an
equitable and fair system that everybody contributes to that. Yes, we expect
that we will be looking into that as well.
Ms.
Wowchuk: That will be very much appreciated by many of
the councils who have that concern expressed.
Mr.
Enns: Just allow me to take this opportunity that
while the focus on this natural land strategy will tend to be on parks issues,
will tend to be on the Endangered Spaces Program and some of these higher
profile things, I invite the honourable member for Swan River to particularly
make sure that these other interests get an opportunity to be heard. It is an opportunity for a representative of,
say, a local council and/or the member herself to avail herself to make
representation to ensure that while we are looking at this overall strategy as
to land use and land allocation and so forth, that we try to indeed cover off
all of the issues that are of concern to Manitobans and/or local councillors.
Ms.
Wowchuk: I guess I feel that if the minister took it
upon himself to deal with the issue of collecting fees within parks, the Crown
lands also fall under his jurisdiction, and that if it is something that he is
concerned about, that I hope that he will take the initiative, just as he did
with parks, to show some leadership in this matter as well.
Mr.
Enns: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I want to introduce
my Forestry Director, Mr. David Rannard, just as we are adjourning,
regrettably. I understand for 12:30
there is agreement to that.
Allow me to put just one clarification note on
the record. I appreciate that certainly
for individuals involved, it is always important that we be clear. Earlier, we referred to some of the positions
that were reduced. I want to be very
clear that the 28 positions that we talked about, a number of them have been
redeployed or reassigned or have taken early retirement. There are four or five employees who are
still on the layoff list and are, as yet, waiting to be handled in that manner,
either redeployed or maybe taking advantage of early retirement.
Thank you very much.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Will the committee rise?
Is that the will of the committee?
Committee rise.
Call in the Speaker.
IN SESSION
The
Acting Speaker (Mr. Edward Helwer): The hour being after 10
p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. (Thursday)