LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Thursday, June 4, 1992
The
House met at 1:30 p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING PETITIONS
Mr.
Kevin Lamoureux (
Mr.
Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I beg to
present the petition of Raymond T. Pepper, Rosa L. Dutka, Susan Dutka and others
requesting the government consider reviewing the funding of the
Mr.
Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Derek Sanderson, Wayne McKay, Fabian Houle and others requesting the government
show its commitment to aboriginal self‑government by considering
reversing its position on the AJI by supporting the recommendations within its
jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice system.
Mr.
Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). It complies with the privileges and practices
of the House and complies with the rules.
Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned residents of the
WHEREAS
the
WHEREAS
the Kimelman Report (1983), the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry (1991) and the Suche
Report (1992) recommended that the province establish such an office reporting
directly to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in a manner similar to that
of the Office of the Ombudsman; and
WHEREAS
pursuant to the Child and Family Services Act Standards, the agency worker is
to be the advocate for a child in care; and
WHEREAS
there is a major concern that child welfare workers, due to their vested
interest as employees within the service system, cannot perform an independent
advocacy role; and
WHEREAS
pure advocacy will only be obtained through an independent and external agency;
and
WHEREAS
the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has unsatisfactorily dealt
with complaints lodged against child welfare agencies; and now
THEREFORE
your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of
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I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen),
and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies
with the rules. Is it the will of the
House to have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
WHEREAS
the Dutch elm disease control program is of primary importance to the
protection of the city's many elm trees; and
WHEREAS
the Minister of Natural Resources himself stated that, "It is vital that
we continue our active fight against Dutch elm disease in
WHEREAS,
despite that verbal commitment, the government of
WHEREFORE
your petitioners humbly pray that the government of
As
in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.
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I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
THAT
child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but
nonetheless it exists in today's world; and
It
is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most
vicious of crimes; and
Programs
like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and
necessary funds to deal with crime; and
The
decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper
the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.
WHEREFORE
your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the
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* * *
I
have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin),
and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies
with the rules. Is it the will of the
House to have the petition read?
The
petition of the undersigned citizens of the
THAT
the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 1988 to conduct an
examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal
people; and
The
AJI delivered its report in August of 1991 and concluded that the justice
system has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and
The
AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aboriginal self‑government and
the right of aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal justice system;
and
The
Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of
On
January 28, 1992, five months after releasing the report, the provincial
government announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the
recommendations; and
Despite
the All‑Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal self‑government,
the provincial government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system,
an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are
solely within provincial jurisdiction.
WHEREFORE
your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the
TABLING OF REPORTS
Hon.
Linda McIntosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative
Review for the 1992‑1993 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the
Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.
Hon.
Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for and charged with the administration of
The Civil Service Act): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table today the
Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1992‑1993
Departmental Expenditure Estimates of the
Hon.
Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1992‑1993
Departmental Expenditures for the Department of Environment.
Mr.
Speaker, I would like to table the 1990‑91 Annual Report of the Manitoba Crop
Insurance Corporation and the 1991 Twenty‑Seventh Annual Report of
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
Bill 97‑The
Incorporation Amendment Act
Mr.
Jack Penner (Emerson): I move, seconded by the honourable member for
La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that Bill 97, The
Motion
agreed to.
Introduction of Guests
Mr.
Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon,
from the
On
behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Mental Health Care System Reform
Government Strategy
Ms.
Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
Those
recommendations, or the spirit of those recommendations, are contained in the
minister's paper of 1988 entitled A New Partnership for Mental Health; they are
contained in his December 1990 paper on a vision for the future; they are contained
in his press release of October 16 setting up a committee; contained in his
January 19, 1992, paper on Building the Future of Mental Health Services; and
contained again in his most recent Action Plan of May 1992.
I
would like to ask the Minister of Health, given the seriousness of the
situation we are dealing with, if he is now prepared to follow the advice of
Judge John Guy, who calls now for action rather than for words and for the
authorities to take concrete steps to increase the more humane treatment of schizophrenia
and hopefully to prevent future loss of life.
Hon.
Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as my honourable
friend well knows, that tragic death has been subject to an inquiry report
which I believe was delivered yesterday.
Mr.
Speaker, that is exactly why this government, in 1988, embarked upon a very
significant change in the approach to mental health service delivery in the
* (1340)
But,
Mr. Speaker, I want to provide some information, lest my honourable friend's
preamble would leave doubt around Judge Guy's conclusion. Page 5 of his statement says: "Finally, at first glance one might
question the lack of security at the Selkirk Mental Health Complex. One would think that a mental hospital, would
be as free from areas of danger as any institution. The manner in which Mr. Russick apparently
achieved his tragic end was a combination of planning, foresight and a window
of opportunity. Once again I am not
convinced that it was completely avoidable in light of his obvious
determination and the manner in which it was carried out."
Mr.
Speaker, I think that indicates that this is an unfortunate and tragic
instance, but that the staff at Selkirk Mental Health Centre did all which was
possible to avoid such a tragic end, Sir.
Ms.
Wasylycia-Leis: The issue for all of us today, is to work to ensure
that deaths like Robert Russick's are avoided.
Although I do not want to argue about semantics, Judge Guy clearly says
that here are six recommendations that will hopefully aid in the prevention of
similar tragic deaths.
So
all I want to ask the Minister of Health today is: What specific steps has he taken, after all
of these reports, to address the kind of recommendations that are in this
report, so that we can at least assure ourselves that we have taken every measure
possible to avoid any kind of death like this happening in the future?
Mr.
Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to indicate the
steps taken.
The
steps taken to attempt to provide the support in the community that have been
recommended as a result of this inquest were initiated by recommendations from
this political party when in opposition to the then government, and followed
through in 1988 when we became government with undertaking the first very direct
and very productive reform of the way we plan and deliver services to those
requiring mental health services in the
We
started a discussion process in 1988, reinforced that discussion process with
the establishment of regional mental health councils involving consumers,
family members, professionals and citizens at large in all regions of the
Ms.
Wasylycia-Leis: All of us must share in the blame and the guilt
around this death. No government is free
from guilt on this issue.
The
question today, and we owe it to Sandra Russick and other mothers and fathers
out there dealing with difficult situations is:
After four years of making specific recommendations and statements,
where are the designated hospital beds in the different regions? Where are the psychiatrically trained assessment
personnel? Where is the 24‑hour‑‑
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.
Mr.
Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that my
honourable friend wants to approach this and accept blame by all parties in the
House, because those recommendations, Sir, were made to a government in
1972. That is 20 years ago.
Mr.
Speaker, we have the action plan January 1992, which has those sorts of very
planning vehicles being developed now for implementation within the next
several years, and there will be priority action in each region of the
The
process now, Sir, will go through and will be completed, because this
government has taken the issue seriously, and we have provided the opportunity
for input, not only of professionals, but of families and consumers of mental
health services throughout the length and breadth of this province to make it
happen.
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Grain Export Commitment
Mr.
Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, the economic situation at
Churchill is approaching critical. The
bins at the port are near empty, and the majority of the employees who are
normally employed at this port are still on laid‑off status. Reports from this province indicate yesterday
that the
I
want to ask the Minister of Highways and Transportation: Will this Minister of
Highways and Transportation confirm that the involved federal government
agencies have agreed to export grain through Churchill, or is this another ploy
and will the hopes of northern Manitobans be once again dashed?
Hon.
Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, no, I cannot confirm that.
Government Communications
Mr.
Daryl Reid (Transcona): I want to ask the same minister, Mr. Speaker,
because the reports do come from within the province.
Has
this minister or this government communicated with Mr. Tom Henley, Chairman of
the
Hon.
Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, yes, we have. All kinds of communication has taken place
over the last three or four months.
I
want to indicate that possibly, to my recollection at least, the involvement of
our Premier (Mr. Filmon) has never been as extensive by any Premier in the past
as it has been by our Premier in terms of trying to get grain movement through
the Port of Churchill from the point that he raised it with the Western Premiers'
Conference.
He
has also been personally in touch with the Wheat Board. He has been in touch
with the Minister responsible for the Wheat Board, and he has communicated
directly with the Russian people in terms of hoping that they would demand and
request that grain be moved via Churchill to
Mr.
Speaker, all kinds of activities have taken place. Unfortunately, to date, I
and this government do not have any commitment about grain movement through
Churchill for this year, and I think it is very crucial.
Agreement Tabling Request
Mr.
Daryl Reid (Transcona): Since there is no commitment of grain exports
through the
Hon.
Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I will go through my file
here, and I will try and make available all the correspondence that basically
is pertinent to the issue and that the member will be interested in.
Constitutional Proposal
Senate Reform
Mrs.
Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.
We
have been told that the reason for the present pause in the ministerial
negotiations on the Constitution is to allow some time for reflection and
consultation, although, if one is to listen to Mr. Clark's statements of
yesterday, one would think the reason for the pause was to force those of us
who believe in a Triple‑E Senate model to back off of our position.
I
fully appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that no final agreements have been made, as the
minister has informed us, but certainly there are patterns that are emerging
and that must be considered before this package is carved in stone and becomes,
as Meech did, some part of a seamless web.
Mr.
Speaker, there appears to be two different thoughts with regard to Senate
reform. One is that this new upper
Chamber should be a watchdog at the service of provincial governments. The
other is that the Senate must act as a second Chamber to ensure the presence
and activity of a strong central government in
My
question is: Since the minister is
committed to the maintenance of a strong central government, what arguments is this
government putting forward so that the Senate does not emerge as simply a
provincial watchdog, but is in fact a Senate with real powers to ensure the
preservation of a strong central government?
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Hon.
James McCrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs): I
believe what I heard from the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party is all on
my agenda and part of the arguments that
We
are very interested in seeing an appropriate balance between the power
represented in the House of Commons, that power held in the hands of the
electors of
The
honourable member also referred to actions taken this week and words spoken
this week that are perhaps designed to break up the so‑called coalition,
a group of people who believe in equality in the Senate. I can tell the honourable member that we will
not allow that to happen.
Delegation of Powers
Mrs.
Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, we know that the ministers have been discussing the withdrawal of
federal participation in a variety of fields, fields such as housing, tourism,
forestry, mining, recreation, urban and municipal affairs, job training,
culture and on and on.
Can
the minister tell this House if the government of the
Hon.
James McCrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs):
Every
time we deal with issues related to changes in powers, we go back and look at
whether we are getting the kinds of movement we need on the equalization front
to ensure that the safeguards are there, and that any devolution of powers does
not weaken the strength of the central government to deliver programs that are
important to people in every part of this country.
Provincial Referendum
Mrs.
Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, it is very clear that in all the media accounts, we keep hearing about
the offloading of programs, but we never hear anything about any monies which
would flow from the federal government to the provinces to operate those
programs to maintain a sense of equality of programming across the nation. It is equally clear that that is exactly what
Manitobans want. They have always felt
the need for that strong central government, because without the presence of
that strong central government and the funds from that strong central
government, then there is not equality of opportunity and programming in this
nation.
Can
the government tell the House today if they have given any further consideration
to the referendum option which, in our opinion, would give Manitobans the
opportunity to say‑‑as they are not going to be given the
opportunity to say nationally‑‑that this province fully supports a
strong central government?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister responsible for
Constitutional Affairs): I can only
repeat some of the things that I said in my previous answer about maintaining a
balance that will ensure that Canadians living in every part of this country
can feel that they are equal Canadians to Canadians in every other part of the country.
The
honourable member and I, I do not believe, have any disagreement on these
points respecting strong central government, the so‑called six siblings,
the powers referred to by the honourable member, and jobs and culture. All of those things, changes that happen,
have to be accompanied by safeguards and have to be accompanied by a
strengthening of the equalization provisions of the Constitution, so that
I
answered the questions and the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) answered
questions about referendums earlier this week.
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Municipal Assessments Delays
Ms.
Rosann Wowchuk (
Since
the introduction of Bill 20, we on this side of the House have raised many
concerns, particularly with the delay in reassessment and the right for farmers
to appeal. We have also raised the
problem of business values decreasing because of closures. The minister has finally realized that there
is a problem and has indicated that his government is going to look at the current
assessment rules and make changes to ease the businesses that had closures,
something that has been suggested by people on this side of the House.
I
want to ask the minister: What changes
is he proposing to make to ease the burden on businesses that have been forced
to close?
Hon.
Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development):
Well, Mr. Speaker, in her question, the member for
Mr.
Speaker, there has been a situation, a very unique situation developed in terms
of assessment and that has to do with businesses that have closed and the
assessment on those businesses. We have
come a long way through reforming assessment in this province, and indeed we
are not where we would like to be in the future, but there are steps that have
to be taken. Because of this unique circumstance, I have indicated very publicly
that I am prepared to examine it and look at whether or not we can address it
through our assessment process.
Right to Appeal
Ms.
Rosann Wowchuk (
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.
Hon.
Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr.
Speaker, let it be made very clear that under the present legislation, farmers
do have the right to appeal their assessment if there are extenuating
circumstances which affect the value of their property. Farmers cannot appeal their assessment based
on the market values that broadly affect the property in the whole province. That is what I was speaking about when I was
asked by the reporter whether or not we would allow for the appeal based on
market value. That is simply not
allowable because it would simply mean the reassessment based on reference
years would have no value whatsoever.
That is something that the opposition should become familiar with and
get an understanding of.
Delays
Ms.
Rosann Wowchuk (
Hon.
Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr.
Speaker, as we have said before, the delay of reassessment by one year does not
affect the right of farmers to appeal their taxes as was previously the
norm. If there is something that affects
the value of a certain property, an extenuating situation, that farmer may
appeal his assessment as he was able to under the former legislation. Bill 20 does not in any way affect that right
whatsoever.
Domtar SiteSoil
Testing Costs
Ms.
Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, this
government claims to subscribe to the polluter‑pay principle, and they
have an opportunity to apply and live by that principle with the cleanup of the
former Domtar site in Transcona.
My
question is for the Minister of Environment.
Has there, or will there be an application to the taxpayer‑supported
Green Plan orphan site program to pay for the testing of the soil from the old
Domtar site?
Hon.
Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, certainly
not for the testing of the soil. The
member is wondering whether any
Ms. Cerilli:
Will Domtar then be paying for the entire
research and testing and the remediation for the site at the end of
* (1400)
Mr.
Cummings: Mr. Speaker, there has been a proposal put
forward from departmental officials to access research development dollars to
examine the possibility of expanding the technology that may be used in the
Domtar site. There are a number of reasons
why that is useful. Technology may well
be possible to be used to remove PCBs and similarly contaminated soil. We do not presently have that
capability. The alternative that we have,
in many cases, is simply storage.
This
technology is being tested in shale. It
has been tested in some sandy soils. It
has never been known to work in heavy clay such as we are wishing to gain that
knowledge on. If the member is critical
of Manitoba‑‑obtaining at no cost to
Ms.
Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I think it was the Conservatives
that coined the phrase "there is only one taxpayer."
Mr.
Speaker: And your question is.
Ms.
Cerilli: There is also concern, Mr. Speaker, about the
effectiveness of this method of decontaminating soil. Does the minister have information about the
anticipated success of this procedure?
If it is not successful with the test being done in
Mr.
Cummings: Mr. Speaker, when I stand here and think of
the hypocrisy coming from that side and there is potentially $14 million worth
of
Mr.
Speaker, specifically, regarding the site where these tests are to take place,
the technology will be tested‑‑
Some
Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister to finish his
response.
Mr.
Cummings: Domtar will be taking a number of truckloads
from the
There
are a number of issues that are referenced in the paper which I imagine the
members now have access to. Frankly, one
of the things that they are concerned about is the ability of any technology to
work successfully in close proximity to dwellings. That will be one of the
first tests that this will be put to and will lead to further decisions. If this technology does not work, Domtar
wishes to be able to bring other technologies in to deal with it.
Human Rights Case
Government Involvement
Mr.
Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy
Premier.
We
are privileged to live in a free and democratic society where the rights for
human beings and due process are accepted as given. On April 3 of this year, the chairperson of
the Punjab Human Rights Commission, Justice Bains, was arrested by the Indian
government for an alleged speech. He
has, since then, been held without being charged.
Human
rights organizations around the world have taken up his cause and have called
for his release. Mr. Justice Bains is a man
who has earned the respect of cross sections of global society around this
world.
Mr.
Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.
Will he contact the federal government and ask them to step up their pressure
on the Indian government to release Justice Bains who is being held without due
process of the law?
Hon.
James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that
question under consideration.
Mr.
Cheema: Mr. Speaker, I will be willing to provide the
information on Mr. Justice Bains.
I
have always tried to keep myself away from any issue which is not within the
boundary of this country, but I am forced to speak on this issue, because it is
an issue which crosses all the boundary lines, the human rights issue.
I
will ask the Deputy Premier: Given the
medical condition of Justice Bains who has been very well respected among you
and the members here, can he also convey to the Prime Minister of this country
to convey to the Indian prime minister to make sure that proper treatment is
being given to this individual who has worked for the last 51 years on behalf
of many organizations which cross all factions of the community?
It
is not a racial issue, Mr. Speaker. It
is a justice issue, and we must speak when there are violations of justice in any
part of the world.
Mr.
Downey: Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the forwarding
of the information that was committed to by the member and, as well, I will
take under consideration his request.
Policing Services
Fee-For-Service Costs
Mr.
Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Justice.
During
the Estimates process, we discussed the policing contract entered into between
the province and the federal government, and it is clear that many aspects of
that contract are up in the air. We have
heard reports in our office and have been contacted and advised that many
police services that are now offered for free will be charged on a fee‑for‑service
basis to police forces in the
Given
the effect this could have on delivery of police services, can the minister
confirm in fact if that is the case?
Hon.
James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Over a long period of time the contracting
provinces negotiated with the federal government the successful conclusion of a
new 20‑year contract guaranteeing RCMP services in those contracting provinces.
That
contract maintains the ratios that were in effect previous to the expiration of
the previous contract, a matter of major importance to all contracting
jurisdictions, including municipalities.
I understand the city of
This
agreement also allows an unprecedented level of program and financial
accountability to the contracting jurisdictions, another major step forward, so
that we can monitor these contracts much more closely than we were able to
previously.
The
third part of this contract which was of major importance was a clarification
of the items that form part of the cost base.
It must be in the area of the cost‑base arrangements that the
honourable member is referring to, and if he could be more specific about the
concerns that he thinks that there are out there with respect to items being up
in the air, I would be very happy to know about that and very happy to deal
directly with those.
Mr.
Chomiak: Therefore, will the minister confirm that lab
tests, computer checks and other aspects relating to homicide and other
investigations carried out by national and federal testing labs will not be
part of a fee‑for‑service basis for police services and police
departments across the province?
Mr.
McCrae: The best way for me to deal with the
specifics of the honourable member's question is to‑‑now I cannot
remember. Did we get through that part in the Estimates?
So
we are already finished that in the Estimates review‑‑but for me to
consult with the director of Law Enforcement Services and deal with the
question directly asked by the honourable member and get him a response to the
question of lab tests and computer checks.
* (1410)
Mr.
Chomiak: My final supplementary. Will the minister contact police departments
and agencies across the province, because they are concerned that these fee‑for‑services
costs will be included and they will be forced to pay for them? Will he undertake to contact these agencies
to advise them that if in fact it is not the case, it is not the case?
Mr.
McCrae: Well, if what the honourable member is asking
is not the case, I do not see any reason to advise anybody. On the other hand, if the honourable member
is being asked about this and he is putting this forward as a question that
requires clarification, I too would like to know the answer to that question as
a result of the negotiations, these lab tests and computer checks, whether that
was part of our negotiated settlement and how that works under the new
arrangement. So I will be sure to
respond to the honourable member at a subsequent time on the specifics of his
question.
The Diviners
Government Support
Mrs.
Shirley Render (St. Vital): My question is directed to the Minister of
Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
Yesterday,
here in the Legislature, there was a fair bit of action going on. The bells were ringing here in the House, and
in the Legislative room, the cameras were rolling. A film called "The Diviners" was
being shot. I wonder if the minister
could tell us whether the government supported that particular project.
Hon.
Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I
am pleased to say that we have very vibrant cultural industries in the
Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to say that there was $400,000 provided through CIDO,
through our cultural industries, for the film "The Diviners" and that
in fact we were able to increase, through this year's budget process, our
commitment to cultural industries by $400,000.
Recycling Programs
Distributor's Costs
Mr.
Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Environment. I received today a copy
of a letter dated June 1 from the City of
My
question is for the Minister of Environment.
Mr. Speaker, we have been saying this for some time. It is now being said by the City of
Hon.
Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, that is
precisely what is occurring under the WRAP Act.
Discussions have taken place with four targeted waste streams, one of
them is the newspaper stream, and one of the things that is coming along very
well is that we are now starting to have in rural
Mr.
Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the fact is that after three and
a half years this government has done a rap on the WRAP Act. The fact is there is nothing that has
happened in
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James, kindly
put your question now, please.
Mr.
Edwards: My question for the minister. He talks about discussions. Those discussions have been going for
years. When is this minister going to
turn discussions into action and do what the City of
Mr.
Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I am more than pleased to say
that I agree with the member that the time is opportune to proceed in this
direction. As a matter of fact, I am
meeting with my staff this afternoon in the ongoing process of preparing for implementation
of WRAP regulations regarding wastepaper in this province.
Abitibi-Price‑Pine Falls
De-Inking Plant
Mr.
Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally, for the same minister.
Can
the minister indicate why, in his recent granting of the licence to Abitibi‑Price,
he included no statement about the contribution of this government towards a
recycling de‑inking plant out at Abitibi‑Price, also an issue
raised by the City of
Mr.
Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question.
Hon.
Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, it is an
interesting point, but I do not think the member would suggest that the
director of the department should be directing the financial approach that
Abitibi takes for redevelopment of the plant.
I
can say very clearly that Abitibi, in putting forward its business plan, is
contemplating and intends to pursue recycling capability, and we will continue
to work with them to develop that.
Mr.
Speaker, it is on the basis of recycling that Abitibi has been doing up to this
point that we have a local market of much magnitude in this province. That is one of the issues that we have been
dealing with, is the freight, dealing with the volumes of newsprint, and that
is now very much in sight in terms of how Abitibi will redevelop.
Tax Increase
Mr.
Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, when the honourable Minister of
Finance admitted in this House that he is slapping a 2 percent tax on Blue Cross,
I was tempted to sing a new song, "
My
question to the honourable Minister of Finance is: On what profit of Blue Cross is he imposing
this 2 percent tax, which would yield almost $750,000 to $1.5 million annual additional
revenue? On what profit of Blue Cross is
he imposing this?
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): The member is really striking
into some old melodies in his preambles to his questions.
I
will certainly be prepared to give full response to that question in
consideration of the bill on statute law and taxation.
But,
Mr. Speaker, when the member talks about being in the "heart of
taxes", I would just have to remind him, [interjection! and obviously with
the agreement of all of his colleagues, I would just remind him that in the
years 1982‑1987, there was an imposition of $800 million of taxes imposed
by the NDP government of
Since
we have been in government, Mr. Speaker, our rates of taxation have amounted to
a $150‑million reduction on an annual basis, not an $800‑million
increase in the "heart of taxes" during the period 1982‑87.
Mr.
Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.
House Business
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before I
move the motion to go into Supply, I would like to announce that the Standing
Committee on Privileges and Elections will meet on Thursday, June 11, at 10
a.m., to consider the operations of The Freedom of Information Act.
Also,
I am calling the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections for Tuesday,
June 16, at 10 a.m., to consider‑‑Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw that
announcement and ask for the leave of the House, if I might, Mr. Speaker, to
move a motion. It is to do with the
Judicial Compensation Committee. I would
like leave of the House to introduce this motion. It is a referral motion referring the Report
of the Judicial Compensation Committee, tabled in the House July 4, be referred
to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections for consideration and
report back to the House. That is the
motion, but I have to have leave to move it.
Mr.
Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader
have leave?
Some
Honourable Members: Leave.
Mr.
Speaker: He does.
Mr.
Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move that
motion, seconded by the minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae).
Motion
agreed to.
Mr.
Manness: Again, before I move the motion, I would ask
leave of the House to make one change in the Estimates list. I apologize to the House leaders for not
having given them prior notice to this.
I am wondering whether or not, seeing that the Minister of Labour's (Mr.
Praznik) Estimates are to be considered shortly, one small item on the list,
namely Employee Benefits and Other Payments, could be brought in right under
the Civil Service Commission so that they could be dealt with at the same time.
Mr.
Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader
have leave to alter the sequence in the manner that he has so indicated?
* (1420)
Some
Honourable Members: Leave.
Mr.
Speaker: Yes, he has leave. Leave has been agreed to.
Mr.
Manness: Then with that change, I would move, seconded
by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave‑‑
Well,
Mr. Speaker, I will ask, again, whether there is a willingness to waive private
members' hour.
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader
have leave to waive private members' hour?
Leave?
Some
Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker:
No. Leave is denied.
* (1430)
ORDERS OF THE DAY
Hon.
Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move,
seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker now leave
the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the
Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to, and the House resolved
itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty
with the honourable member for
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent Sections)
LABOUR
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order. This afternoon, this section of
the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering the Estimates
of the Department of Labour.
Does
the honourable Minister of Labour have an opening statement?
Hon.
Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Yes, I do, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased to present the 1992‑1993 Estimates for
the Department of Labour. The Department
of Labour is composed of three divisions.
The first division is the Labour Services Division, whose mandate is to
provide services to a broad range of individuals and organizations focusing on
public safety through the Office of the Fire Commissioner and the Mechanical
and Engineering branch, assurance of the technical competence of tradespersons
through the Apprenticeship & Training branch and through Mechanical &
Engineering, and thirdly, promotion of fair employment practices through the
Pension Commission, Conciliation and Mediation Services and through the Pay
Equity Bureau.
The
second division of the department is the Workplace Safety, Health and Support
Services Division, whose mandate is to administer those acts and regulations
within the Department of Labour that relate to the protection of the health,
safety and economic well‑being of Manitobans. This division also serves a very broad range
of our public. The division is composed
of six branches‑‑Field Inspection and Education Services, Mines Inspection,
Occupational Health, Employment Standards, Labour Adjustment and the office of
the Worker Advisor.
The
third division of the Department of Labour is Management Services. This division provides the financial and
human resource management support to the entire department, as well as information
system support. The division is also
responsible for research legislation and policy co‑ordination for the
department and provides essential support to the many advisory committees on whom
the department relies and consults. It
is the goal of all members of the three divisions of the Department of Labour
to provide the highest quality of service that we can to the Manitobans that we
serve.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to offer my own
thanks and appreciation to the members of the Labour department for their hard
work over the past year. The mandate of
the Labour department is an important one, and while the times we are
experiencing are extremely difficult for all jurisdictions, I am pleased to
indicate that the spending Estimates for the Department of Labour, on an
adjusted vote, represent an increase of 5.6 percent over the 1991‑92
budget, I would suspect one of the highest increases for any Department of Labour
in
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, in introducing the spending Estimates of the Department of
Labour, I will just touch briefly on a few of the major issues. It is critical to the economic well‑being
of the province that we operate in a way which reflects respect for all of our
citizens. The Labour department is not large,
but is nevertheless charged with a number of important matters. We are responsible for the administration of
our 20 statutes and numerous regulations aimed at ensuring fair play in
critical areas of workplace safety, labour relations, public safety, to name a
few.
It
is also critical that in order to ensure fair play, that our legal framework
reflect the balanced interests of a wide variety of parties. It is not possible, I realize, to satisfy every
concern or every interest which comes before me as Minister of Labour. This would not be possible, I am sure members
would agree. I am satisfied, however,
that through the consultations in which we engage, both formal and informal,
the mandate of the Labour department is well served and that the balance which
is so essential to the interests of fair play and competitiveness as a province
is maintained.
The
Department of Labour is into its second year of a long‑term initiative to
improve the quality of service deliverance to our clients. In this fiscal year, managers have been
delegated various administrative responsibilities and will be more accountable
for the results and service given by their branches. All staff have participated in workshops
designed to familiarize them with service quality concepts and the progress we
are making as a department. Staff‑driven
quality improvement teams will soon be reality, and more training of our
employees will occur over the next few years.
Our department is very excited about the leadership it has demonstrated
in the initiative, and we hope it will not be long before our clients actually
experience improvement in the way our multitude of services are delivered.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, I am prepared to defer some of my remarks regarding the
other accomplishments of the department over the past year to the detailed
review process. Those are many and
varied, and while I look forward to sharing the information with members of the
committee, I believe that this can be done more efficiently as we proceed.
On
that note, I look forward to the questions which members opposite may wish to
put to me. Thank you.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: We thank the honourable Minister of Labour for
those comments. Does the critic from the
official opposition party, the honourable member for Thompson have an opening
statement?
Mr.
Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I welcome the
opportunity once again, as Labour critic for the New Democratic Party, to open
this discussion of the Estimates for the current fiscal year. I want to indicate that our view is that
while this is a relatively small department in terms of budget in comparison to
other departments of government, it is a critical department.
It
is indicative in many ways of the policies and programs of governments, and I
think in the context of the last number of years that I have had the
opportunity to participate in these discussions in Estimates, I think we have
seen, probably more clearly in this department than any other, the kinds of
policies and programs of this government.
I
want to indicate that I continue to have great difficulty with the direction
that this government is taking in a whole series of Labour issues, whether it
be in terms of labour relations, whether it be in terms of the whole question
of apprenticeship training, whether it be in terms of the question of pay
equity, whether it be in terms of the question of the Worker Advisor Office and
Workers Compensation which we will be dealing with separately but which is
certainly related, all that is dealt with by this particular department,
amongst others.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, while I credit the many fine staff people in the department
and the different sections, and the work they do on an ongoing basis, I must
again indicate at the beginning of these comments my concern about the
directions which this government has been taking in the last five years
now. This is the fifth year this
government has been in office.
I
do so by looking at the statement of purpose of this department, because I really
believe that this government is embarking on a course, and has been the last
five years, that is not in keeping with its own statement of purpose, the
statement of purpose for the Department of Labour, of which one statement of
purpose is the promotion of safety, health and fair and equitable treatment in
the workplace.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, this government has brought in changes to labour
legislation every single year that it has been in office, brought in changes to
labour legislation five sessions in a row, and not only has in each session
brought in one bill, but has brought in some cases more than one bill that has impacted
negatively, in our view, on the equitable treatment of workers in the
workplace.
We
had the bill to delete final offer selection.
We had the bill to freeze wages in the public sector last year. We had Bill 59, the Workers Compensation
bill, and we currently have a number of acts, including bills related to
pensions that we feel are not moving in the direction that is in the best
interests of working people, and perhaps most significant in this session,
changes to The Labour Relations Act.
We
do not believe this government understands what equitable is in the
workplace. We believe that implementing
the Chamber of Commerce agenda, which the government has done every session it has
been in government, which it is doing now in Bill 85 which is taken right out
of the Chamber of Commerce brief to government, implementing the Chamber of
Commerce agenda for this province is not serving the interests of providing
equitable treatment in the workplace.
Similarly,
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would note in terms of the fostering of a stable
labour relations climate, another statement of purpose of this government, this
government has done anything but promote stable labour relations. We saw that last year in terms of the public
sector wage freeze. We have seen, in terms
of this government, that it is following the pattern of previous Conservative
governments.
Almost
without fail, there have been increased incidences of days lost to strikes when
we have had Conservative governments largely because, I continue to believe,
many people in this government do not understand labour relations and do not understand
the consequences of their actions when they bring in the kinds of changes to
labour relations and do not understand the consequences of their actions when
they bring in the kind of changes to labour relations legislation that we have
seen.
* (1440)
I
say that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson‑‑and I know we will be continuing
this debate in terms of Bill 85‑‑because I am concerned at a time
when we are in a deep recession that we are seeing a worsening of the labour
relations climate. Similarly, one of the
other stated purposes of the Department of Labour, which I certainly subscribe
to and our caucus does, is support workplace training.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, this is the government that has cut back overall in terms
of community college training. It has
cut back in terms of apprenticeship and training, particularly in northern
We
have seen this government turn a cold shoulder to the Labour Education Centre
which provides badly needed education and training, which is pioneering, by the
way, in conjunction with management groups right now in a whole series of
projects. This government has not seen
fit because of ideological reasons to support the work of the Labour Education
Centre. The government not only has gone
that far, it has eliminated a scholarship to the
I
say to you that I believe here, once again, the government does not see or does
not admit perhaps to the true agenda here. Why is it afraid of providing
support and funding to organizations such as the Labour Education Centre? Why is it afraid of providing this
scholarship? Is it afraid of workers who
are aware of their rights, workers who are able to educate themselves about
current issues, whether it be in terms of workplace safety and health or labour
relations? I say that because these cuts
have been particularly negative.
I
point again to the concerns that were expressed about the Unemployed Help
Centre. The minister of this government
had the opportunity to reinstate funding for the Unemployed Help Centre which
provides assistance to the unemployed.
We have seen proof the last period of time that the average person on
unemployment insurance in this province is not receiving the full benefits to which
they are due. Even though those
benefits, by the way, have been significantly cut, even though it has become
more difficult to obtain unemployment insurance, these people are still receiving
less than they are entitled to. The
minister said, and previous ministers have said, that this is a matter of
federal jurisdiction.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, unemployed Manitobans are Manitobans. Unemployed Manitobans who are not receiving
the benefits to which they are entitled to are citizens of this province. This government should be supporting them in
receiving the kind of assistance to which they are entitled. It could have done that. The government was doing that through support
to the Unemployed Help Centre, but they have chosen instead to turn a blind eye
to the plight of the unemployed.
The
result has been more people on welfare.
We have seen proof of that just today.
I know in my own constituency of Thompson the welfare rolls have
increased from 5,200 applications to an estimated 6,800 this year, in one year
alone. The most significant cause has
been in terms of people who have run out of UIC. It is people who have gone from UIC to
welfare. It is the same situation in the
city of
More
and more people who never would have ever contemplated ending up on welfare,
who now because of the changes in the unemployment insurance system‑‑and
no thanks to this government which has cut funding to the Unemployed Help
Centre which was able to help individuals significantly and still works without
the support of this government to help unemployed Manitobans‑‑we are
seeing more and more people fall into that trap, the welfare trap.
I
say, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this department, the funding that is allocated in
this department, and in particular the kind of cuts we have seen in the past
four, five years are indicative of a government‑‑and I have said
this before and I remember my first Estimates expressing my concern about the
direction the government would go in terms of dealing with matters related to labour
issues, in terms of working people. I
really believe this government has shown its shortsighted agenda in this
department more than any other.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, in the brief time that we will have available to discuss
Estimates, I will be asking questions about these and other issues, but more
importantly, I will be putting forward another way in which this government can
go, because there is another alternative.
There is an alternative to the kind of petty cuts we have seen because I
really believe they have been motivated by petty politics.
There
is an alternative to the blind implementation of the Chamber of Commerce agenda
in this province. There is an alternative
to this continual effort on behalf of the government to end up in confrontation
with the labour movement and the working people it represents.
There
is another alternative, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and particularly now, I believe
that alternative should be put on the record.
We are in the worst economic circumstances in 30 years, 40 years, 50
years. We are in the longest recession
in living memory. Only those who went
through the depression, really, can think of similar circumstances.
We
need co‑operation in this province right now to deal with the economic
circumstances. I guess what I am asking
from this government, if anything, is a cease fire. We know this war on the labour movement will
continue in the future. I have no doubt about
that. We indeed will be continuing the
fight for more fairness for working people.
I
said that on final offer selection, and we will say that again in debate on
Bill 85, that whatever this government thinks it can do in the short term, it
should be reminded of the words, in fact, of Sterling Lyon who just recently
spoke to many Manitobans at a tribute to the six Premiers, who said there were only
temporary governments.
Any
government is only a temporary government.
This government is indeed a temporary government. In the future, many of the negative policies
they have introduced can and will be turned around. In the meantime, now, after the fifth year in
a row that they have brought in this antilabour agenda, would it not be better
to call a cease fire, to work together, to have co‑operation between
business, labour and government on the economy?
I
put that forward as the alternative idea, the alternative vision. I put it forward in debate on the Labour
Estimates, because this department and many fine staff people in this department,
if given the mandate, could do a great deal to implement that. They have the ability. They have the dedicated, the trained
staff. All it takes is policy direction
from the government. I believe now is
the time for a co‑operative approach in terms of labour relations. Now is the time to put aside these petty
political attacks the government has made on the labour movement and working
people.
It
is time to work together to get out of this terrible recession we are in and
deal with the horrendous situation in terms of unemployment in this
province. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for Thompson
for those comments. Does the critic from
the second opposition party, the honourable member for
Mr.
Kevin Lamoureux (
I
must say right from the onset that to some degree I am disappointed. I am disappointed in the sense of the budget priorities,
as I pointed out, when we came back in the spring. I am somewhat disappointed with the minister
not recognizing the importance of the Civil Service.
For
both those particular lines, I would like to comment on, one, in terms of the
question where we saw a virtual freeze put on the Labour Adjustment line, and
we only go to the report on Adjusting to Win with respect to free trade.
* (1450)
There
is a demand for programs of this nature.
The government's priorities in that particular area are just not where
we believe they should be, while at the same time, we see the increases in the
support staff of the governments. We
look at the Civil Service. On a few
occasions, I have brought up to the minister's attention some hirings that we
have called into question, and unfortunately the minister felt that it was not
an appropriate thing to do.
Now,
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we wanted to talk in terms of the Labour Management
Review Committee. For far too long, we have
had decisions being made based solely on the party that is in government. There seems to be some obligation, whether it
is a Conservative government now or an NDP government in the past, that there
needs to be amendments brought forward to The Labour Relations Act and others,
whether it is in the best interest of the worker or not.
In
fact, we have created a Labour Management Review Committee, and that particular
committee is responsible to bring forward recommendations to the minister. Far too often, we see division on
recommendations coming to the minister from that committee.
I
am inclined to believe that if a committee is struck which has labour and
management on the committee, if they cannot come up with a consensus, then it
is not something that the government should be taking as a recommendation from
the Review Committee.
I
think that we need to depoliticize The Labour Relations Act a lot more than it
currently is because, as I say, we see, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that the
minister, both present and in the past, far too often brings in changes to The
Labour Relations Act because, in this particular case, as the member for
Thompson (Mr. Ashton) points out, of the Chamber of Commerce. Equally, the Conservatives will say that
changes to The Labour Relations Act such as final offer selection were brought
in because of the NDP administration.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, I think that they are both wrong, that the worker is the
one whom we should be thinking of, not catering to a small but powerful group
of individuals on each side, if you like.
In
terms of the Civil Service, I will not be giving open remarks for the Civil
Service, but I want to comment on the Civil Service and also Workers
Compensation because they are two responsibilities of the minister that we will
be dealing with.
We
see that the Civil Service has a much larger role to play. There is a lot of public cynicism toward
politicians in general, in part because of the amount of patronage that takes place. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we believe that the
Civil Service has a major role and in fact should be broadened to once again, or
at least attempt to try to restore some public faith in politicians.
In
respect to their wages and the freeze on wages that we saw last year, we look
at the ministerial support staff of all the different ministers, and you will
see that there are substantial increases, while at the same time, the Civil
Service, I was told, was for zero percent, and in fact brought in legislation.
Workers
Compensation‑‑there are a number of issues that we are wanting to
address, some specific policy questions, and we are hoping to be able to get
into Workers Compensation this time through.
I know in the past we have not had very much debate or questions
regarding Workers Compensation.
So
with those few words, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to proceed.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for those comments.
Under
At
this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask
that the minister introduce the staff present.
Mr.
Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was just going to
suggest that in terms of proceeding, we proceed the way we have, certainly last
year, and not deal strictly line by line, and deal with the department perhaps
generally at the first point. It will
make it a lot easier, I think, in terms of dealing with them, particularly
given the length of time that we have available.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I understand that
there is a limited amount of time that our critics have allotted for this Estimates,
and I gather that there is some desire to deal with them in a rather short time
frame.
Mr.
Ashton: Yes, just in terms of that, I know it is
difficult to estimate the length of time that we spend on any department, especially
once we get into some of the questions and answers back and forth, but I do
believe we should be finished Labour today, and possibly may start Civil
Service.
Mr.
Praznik: I have no problem with that means of proceeding.
All I would ask is if the critics could, just for the benefit of my staff in
terms of moving people here for particular areas, follow generally the layout
in the guide for pursuing our questions and work through them. That would probably save us some time and
accommodate staff.
If
I may, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, introduce my staff, I have the Deputy Minister,
Roberta Ellis‑Grunfeld, who is here with me, Jim Nykoluk, who is the
Executive Director of Management Services, and Mr. Jim Wood, who is Director of
Financial Services, and as we move through departments, we will move other staff
in, and I will introduce them.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: I would like to inform the members of the
committee that the correct procedure for considering items in the Committee of
Supply is line by line. In order to skip
ahead or revert back to lines already passed, unanimous consent by the committee
is required. Is there unanimous consent
of the committee at this time to deal with the issues on a whole? [Agreed!
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, I introduced the three, and as we move
through departments and other staff come, I want to have everyone here so we
can accommodate your questions today and move through with some speed,
appreciating the time frames we are all working under.
Mr.
Ashton: I have a number of questions on
Apprenticeship and Training to begin with, and I can indicate we will have some
questions on the Pay Equity Bureau a bit later, so we may go back on sort of
what appears as the order here.
I
know the member for
In
terms of Apprenticeship and Training, I wanted to ask the minister if it is
possible in the future to get detailed responses because I realize some
information may not be available.
I
would like to ask the minister if it would be possible to obtain an indication
of the number of apprentices enrolled since 1985, if that historic information
could be available? Once again, we will
be sitting in other departments which the minister reports back on, and if I
could ask for the current year information if that is available.
* (1500)
Mr.
Praznik: I will undertake to provide the member and
the two critics with a historical listing of the number of apprentices by trade
going back to 1985. Just give me a
moment‑‑we will have the current number in training.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, I would reference members to the annual report which should
have a detailed outline of apprentices being dealt with. Yes, if I could provide a copy of the annual report,
and I would reference page 66. I think
that will give the honourable member a rundown of apprenticeships, registrations,
completions, active at year end, breakdowns in terms of women, level testing,
all of that information going back to the '88‑89 year.
Mr.
Ashton: I would appreciate the information back to
1985 as well.
One
of the key questions I have, one of the reasons for asking the question, is
related to the Conawapa Hydro project. One of the most significant developments
in the mid‑'80s was in terms of apprenticeship training, particularly
through the Limestone training authority.
Many apprentices were enrolled. Many apprentices are currently at the
second, third level in the system.
Conawapa
will likely be under construction as early as next year, depending on the
environmental review and other policy and political decisions by government and
Hydro, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. But '93
seems to be a very likely start‑up date according to the latest
information‑‑I have the minister sitting across from me so‑‑depending
on all those other factors.
The
question I have is: What role has the
Apprenticeship branch had in terms of development of training policies and programs,
and when can we see the kind of programs put in place for Conawapa that were
put in place for Limestone with whatever changes may be made by government?
In
particular, I am wondering if the department has met at all with other
departments, ministers met with other ministers, in regards to the significant
cut that took place the previous year in the community college system,
particularly in Thompson, in terms of apprenticeable trades training, because
those were the courses that were eliminated, most particularly in Thompson, former
Limestone training courses. So, I guess,
the key question is: Where do we sit
with training for Conawapa?
Mr.
Praznik: I notice the Minister of Energy and Mines
(Mr.
To
answer the member's question specifically, certainly the most important
question for northern Manitobans and indeed all Manitobans: I see he recognizes that there is some
difference between now and the Limestone period. One being, we have had a lot people who were
in training, partially completed training, during the Limestone project, and we
are starting at a very different base, obviously, than when Limestone was
constructed. I can tell him that our department is working very closely with other
departments that are involved in this project, particularly the Minister of
Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey). We are
working along with them to ensure that we maximize the benefits to
I
can tell you now that our branch has a person assigned to this work. One of the parts of the job that he is
undertaking currently is to do an assessment or an inventory of the people that
we have from the Limestone training initiative to find out who may need extra
time in order to complete their work, who is available, who have completed
apprenticeships, et cetera. We will
certainly, I can assure him, be working to maximize those benefits through the
branch, and it is certainly a priority with the branch now.
Mr.
Ashton: When I referred to the 1993 start‑up
date for Conawapa, I was basing it on the information the government itself has
provided. You can call it
optimistic. You can call it
pessimistic. To my mind, it is
realistic.
I
mean, if that is the government's stated intention, I take them at their
word. Once again that is dependent upon,
obviously, the environmental hearings which are taking place. I do not think anybody is prejudging
that. I assume the government has made
the commitment in conjunction with Hydro for a '93 start‑up date on the
assumption that all the environmental hearings take place.
One
of the main concerns I wanted to put on the record was the fact that I really
believe it was a major mistake to cut some of the trades courses last
year. I really believe that now is the
time to be dealing in terms of training needs.
It is time to deal with the continuing need to train northern and
northern aboriginal people in terms of apprenticeships.
One
of the key things, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that the Limestone training
authority did do is get a lot of northerners, and in particular northern
aboriginal people, into the apprenticeship system, some of whom were able to
complete the program prior to the conclusion of Limestone, many of whom are still
in the system.
By
the way, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my focus is strictly on Hydro. It is for the communities; it is for the
North in general. Many of those people
were able to finish. The carpenters, for
example, who graduated through the Limestone Training Program received their
ticket. They are now in the situation of
working in the communities. So it has
made a very significant impact on their own lives and on the lives of the communities.
So
I want to identify that as a concern and ask the minister to take a lead role
because I do not believe from the information we have received thus far, and we
have asked this question of the MEA, we asked it of Manitoba Hydro, and it does
not appear that there is anything now really going on other than co‑ordination
between various departments and the Crown corporation. So the concern I would have is, if it is
going to be built, the training needs to start as soon as possible.
If
there was one problem, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in terms of Limestone training,
it was that if it could have started perhaps a year before, perhaps on a more
reduced scale. I think given the
uncertainties that you can get into in terms of Hydro development,
possibilities of delays that are reasonable, but if the training had been able
to start a year earlier, we would have seen a significant increase in the
number of people who actually completed their trades qualifications, because
there are many now at the second and third level who are looking to Conawapa.
So
I would like to ask the minister if he would undertake to ensure that the
government puts those training programs into place now, Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
rather than wait until 1993‑1994, when it will probably be too late for
many northerners, in particular, to take advantage of work opportunities in
terms of Conawapa, since they will not complete their training until a number
of years down the line.
Mr.
Praznik: The member's concern is certainly a very
valid one. Although this department has
a very small, an important role, but a small role, the training piece of the
package as I am sure you appreciate is carried to a large extent by the Department
of Education, but we will certainly undertake today, with you, in co‑operation
I am sure with my colleagues, to review this situation.
We
appreciate the concern you are putting on the table and we will try to work to
fairly good time frames that will allow northerners and Manitobans to take full
advantages of the opportunities related to Conawapa. His concern is certainly one that I recognize
and as I have indicated before, we are in the process of doing the inventory
out of the Limestone program to give us a sense of people who are there and
some of the immediate needs that we can fulfill that were not completed under Limestone. I will note his comments and give an
undertaking to pursue that in that particular area.
Mr.
Ashton: Doing that inventory, I would hope that the government
would give consideration to involving aboriginal organizations in that. There is really no inventory currently. I
believe the Department of Education and Training has virtually no inventory in
terms of northern
Aboriginal
organizations, whether it be the MKO or the various tribal councils or the MMF,
do have their own data bases. They have
contacts in the communities. It is the
same with the NACC; they have the ability to do it.
So
I would perhaps suggest on the record, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that may be a
priority area of action for the government because I think that that inventory
will be very useful, in fact will be vital in terms of the planning. Whatever is going on now in terms of planning
really becomes an academic exercise unless you have a good inventory.
I
do have a couple of other questions on apprenticeship in a more general
sense. It relates from a couple of cases
that have been brought to my attention.
One in particular really concerned me, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. When the individual phoned me on the Saturday
of the week, he was scheduled to go to
* (1510)
This
individual had to rent an apartment, paid the money in advance, has now been
faced with the difficulty, potentially, of having a delay in terms of the
training. What had happened in that
particular case was, the enrollment was a couple fewer than what was considered
to be a proper enrollment. It puts
people in a very difficult situation. I
know the Apprenticeship branch was quite active in lobbying on behalf of this
particular individual.
I
am wondering if the minister can indicate whether he or his department will be
dealing with these kinds of situations by asking the community colleges to be
more reasonable. I think it is totally
unreasonable to cancel a course on two or three days notice, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, particularly when the next course may not be available for a
period of time.
This
individual, by the way, had quit a part‑time job as a result of going to
this, was unable to get the part‑time job back and ended up in the
situation where his own employer was considering laying him off because he had
budgeted for the period of time when the employee was supposed to be taking the
trades training. It was a period where
he was fairly slow in terms of business, so he was going to eliminate that
position for a few months. So he ended
up losing his part‑time job, potentially losing his full‑time job,
losing six weeks worth of salary and having to wait another eight to 10 months
to continue the program.
As
I said, the Apprenticeship branch was very helpful in terms of this and was
very supportive of the individual. I am wondering
if the minister can undertake to ensure that this kind of situation does not
arise again, that there is at least some sort of reasonable notice put in place
so that people do not end up in this difficult situation in the future.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the situation which
the member raises is indeed a very unfortunate one. My staff have just advised me that the
difficulty was that only eight people had applied for the course. But his point is extremely valid.
In
fact, I can tell him today that our staff in Apprenticeship and Training have
been in touch with the Department of Education because of this specific
incident and have advised them that it is certainly unacceptable to have that kind
of lead time in cancelling courses. We
hope within the not‑too‑distant future that this policy will be
changed in the education area and that we will be able to better accommodate those
kinds of course changes.
So
the matter he raises is very, very valid.
I am pleased to say that our staff in the department have already been
pursuing that, and I will undertake to review it to see that some conclusion is
brought to it, and that this does not happen again.
Mr.
Ashton: As I said, I appreciate the work the branch
has been doing. I have indicated to the
individual who contacted me that I would be raising this. I would really appreciate this matter being
pursued, because it is a classic case of the little person, I guess, getting it
in more ways than one in this case, losing two jobs, losing six weeks salary
and losing a year in terms of training.
While
it may be easy for
By
the way, he may be fairly soon another one of the welfare statistics because
that is what he indicated, that if he got laid off from his permanent job, that
is where he would have to go, a very unfortunate situation.
I
have another general issue to raise in terms of Apprenticeship and
Training. I have had a significant
number of concerns expressed to me in terms of testing. I have had individual cases. I know a number of members of our caucus have
had further cases in terms of testing, relating to tests which, where some
individuals were on the borderline, some were allowed to rewrite, some were
not, the ways in which that discretion is put forward; other concerns where
virtually entire classes fail tests because some of the testing material did
not relate to the course work that they had taken, and it is very key to
people.
The
bottom line is, the apprenticeship system is a difficult system for people to
have to go through. You go through a
period of being in school, often away from home. You go through a period of not making all
that much money compared to what you could be making otherwise. When it comes to problems in terms of testing,
it can really destroy people on a personal basis. I have seen that happen to people.
I
would like to ask the minister whether he would review some of the testing
procedures that are put in place to ensure a greater degree of fairness. I mentioned the case of people who‑‑some
people are allowed to rewrite, some others are not‑‑I have a
specific case of that, where it has been identified‑‑and also in
terms of the kinds of tests that are being used, as to whether they are
appropriate because, as I said, I can provide information to the minister of
virtually entire groups of people who have been failed for tests that are not
really that relevant to the material they have taken or even necessarily to the
trade itself.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for Thompson
has hit upon one of the great challenges and difficulties in the particular
branch at this time. Just to put his
concern into context and to give him one example, one of which I do not think any
of us in the area are particularly proud, a new intraprovincial construction
electrician's examination developed in Nova Scotia and validated by most
provinces, including ours, was approved for use in April 1992. What it found across the country was, of the
520 who wrote the exam, only 148 had passed. I think the message that it was
sending to us right across the country in this area was that our curriculum
development is not keeping up, by and large, with the standards and changes due
to technology in particular trades.
I
should just tell again, by way of background, to the honourable member that
when we came into power some years ago, we had a situation in the branch where
many of our trades advisory committees, which developed the curriculum, had not
met for long, long periods of time. The
former director of the branch, with much effort, managed to get those
committees up and operating again. There
were approximately 40‑some committees‑‑43 committees, I am
advised. We still have some way to go,
and one of our initiatives in this upcoming year will be to increase the work
of those committees in order to ensure that our curriculum is being updated on
a regular timely basis, though it is relevant to the trades that are being
taught.
So
he certainly identified a major area, and I can assure him today that it has
come to our attention, at the management level, very strongly in the last six
months, and our efforts to ensure our trades advisory committees are working
fully and on a timely basis are being redoubled in order to ensure curriculum
is meeting the standards that are required in particular trades. So I thank him for raising that particular
matter, and over the next year, I hope we are going to have some major
improvements.
Mr.
Ashton: I appreciate that. I do not have any further questions on
apprenticeship. Would the Liberal critic
want to ask questions now, or I can proceed to other areas.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I will go back to that.
Mr.
Ashton: He may be coming back, I believe, on
that. Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am
just moving ahead in my book here. I have
some general questions now in terms of labour relations, partly relating to the
Labour Board and partly relating to Conciliation and Mediation Services.
I
would just like to ask the minister if he could provide the latest information
to the committee on days lost due to strikes in
Mr.
Praznik: If I could just have my staff come forward‑‑Tom
Bleasdale, who is our assistant deputy minister, joined us a few minutes
ago. We also have Mr. John Korpesho, who
is chair of the Manitoba Labour Board, and if Mr. Davage would come forward
from Conciliation and Mediation.
In
1991, and I am not sure exactly what information the member for Thompson is
looking for, there were 10 work stoppages in Manitoba involving 10,878 workers
and 175,252 person days lost.
* (1520)
Mr.
Ashton: How does that compare, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, to previous years?
Mr.
Praznik: It is somewhat higher, considerably higher,
than in previous years.
Mr.
Ashton: I was wondering if the minister perhaps at
the next committee meeting could table some of the information for members of
the committee in terms of comparison, if that information could be compiled.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if we could
arrange to have a clerk make copies of this, I can table it right now.
Mr.
Ashton: I hate to say I told you so, but I can recall
being at previous committees in context of this department or in context of
various Labour bills predicting that this would happen. As I said, this has been the historical trend
in the province in the last 25 years. If
one looks at it, I would hope that the government would recognize that its
policies in terms of labour relations do lead to more confrontation in the
workplace, higher days lost to strikes.
Certainly the actions they have taken the last number of years in
eliminating final offer selection, in terms of their actions of dealing with
the public sector, have led to increased losses‑‑a significant
number of losses in terms of days lost to strikes.
I
have a further question to the minister related to some of the impacts of the
proposed Bill 85. I do not intend, Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, in any way, shape or form, to start that debate here. That would not be appropriate in terms of our
rules and would certainly not, I think, be useful in terms of discussions.
I
thank the minister for providing me the information. It does provide a rather staggering number of
person‑days lost. We have
traditionally been second lowest in the country, and the minister has indicated
last year we had 147,402 person‑days lost to strikes in this province, we
had 9,702 workers involved. The next
closest year was 1987 in terms of 7,790 days lost. So we have literally gone up seven, eight,
nine times in terms of that. That is a
staggering number in terms of increases.
While certainly there are various factors that go into that, I do believe
there is clearly something that should be of concern to the government. I would point out, Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
that indeed one of the strikes itself was a strike which was a public sector
strike where the government was directly involved.
But
I had a further question on conciliation.
If the minister wishes to comment on this, I am sure he will. If I could just place the question on
conciliation, just to move things along a bit.
Bill 85 introduces a new role for conciliators, provisions that deal
with conciliators' report prior to a contract going to first contract. I would like to ask the minister whether he
has had any discussions with his department on his Conciliation section,
because I know there is a fairly significant concern that puts conciliators in
a new position.
Conciliators
traditionally are in a very neutral situation. This now puts quite a bit of
pressure on conciliators. They have to
make a recommendation as to whether the matter proceeds to first contract,
whether there has been good efforts to bargain. There is also no time
restriction on that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
So presumably a conciliator could be in a position for quite a period of
time of having to deal with a very important decision, rather than the
traditional role of trying to bring the two parties together.
I
would like to ask the minister whether he has discussed this and whether he is
in any way concerned about the change in the role of the Conciliation division
of his department.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to
respond to the comments of the member for Thompson, because his "I told
you so" I do not think is really warranted. When you look at the numbers for 1991, they
are certainly large, but he has to appreciate, as I am sure he does, that over
80 percent of those numbers were represented by the strike with the Manitoba
Nurses'
Why
I particularly would like to make a comment about the Manitoba Nurses' Union
strike, that strike took place in a time when final offer selection was still
available. I remember the member for
Thompson (Mr. Ashton) making a very long speech about final offer selection and
how it would destroy the labour climate and cause strikes. Well, this most significant number of days lost
in 1991 was in a labour dispute while final offer selection was available to
that union but was not used by that union.
So, quite frankly, the loss of final offer selection has not affected, I
would argue, the number of days lost to strikes in the province.
I
would like to point out to the honourable member as well that in the MNU
dispute, the initial offer made by the government at that time in the
settlement was significantly higher than the two previous settlements
negotiated with the Manitoba Nurses'
However,
I would point out to him, we did manage to get an agreement through the
collective bargaining process. I am sure
he would agree, a strike lockout situation is a part of free collective
bargaining. So we did manage to get an
agreement in that case. It is one which
everyone lives with.
But
I do not think in any way the policies of the government in terms of labour
relations or the removal of final offer selection in any way contributed to
those numbers. In fact, I think 1991
was, over the last decade, sort of a middle‑of‑the‑road year
in terms of the number of disputes and the number of days lost when you exclude
the Manitoba Nurses'
The
member refers to that, but I do not know what his alternative would have been
other than just to open up the Brink's truck, as his Leader once chastised the
Liberal Party for. So I think one has to
put those numbers into context, and I do not think the I‑told‑you‑so
was certainly warranted, particularly if one references that comment in the
member's speeches on the repeal of final offer selection.
Ultimately,
we will have this debate every year, I am sure, and the member for Thompson
(Mr. Ashton) and I will continue to dispute the end result. But in one year, I do not think one way or
another, the evidence is certainly going to prove very much. I look forward to
our debate on that particular issue over the next number of years that we both
hold these particular responsibilities in our respective parties.
With
respect to the specific question of the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), on
Bill 85, I am looking forward to the debate that we will, no doubt, have. The member and I have had an opportunity to
discuss outside of committee and outside of the House some of the concerns and
why this particular provision was brought in.
I
am sure he would agree that it is important that when a conciliation officer is
appointed that he has the opportunity to try to conciliate between his
parties. Our conciliation staff have a
very high success rate in the disputes in which they are asked to provide their
services. I think they are still running
at over an 85 percent, or this year about 95 percent, success rate in resolving
disputes.
The
concern that he raises about putting our conciliation officers into a bit of a
difficult position in these disputes I think has some validity. I certainly want to recognize that here today
at committee as we have discussed privately.
* (1530)
Our
main task is to provide some role for conciliation in the process of first
contract disputes. To date, what has
normally happened is a conciliation officer has been appointed as the act required. However, the conciliation officer really
never had an opportunity to conciliate because once that step was completed, parties
moved right away into the process or negotiated their own settlement with the
use of first contract as a tool in negotiating that settlement.
So
our intention in the bill is to give the conciliation officer an opportunity to
try to bring the parties to an agreement and not use first contract as a
negotiation tool. I think the member is
suggesting some time limit, and I certainly would be prepared to have that
discussion with the member on some other occasion. I think he recognizes what we are trying to achieve. If there is a way to achieve that goal, which
I am sure he appreciates, we are certainly not adverse to discussing that.
Mr.
Ashton: I will continue that discussion. I would like to indicate that if there was an
award for the most creative answer in Estimates, I think the minister has won
it for his last answer on the statistics.
To call a year in which there are 20 times more person days lost to
strikes than the highest other year in the first years of the last decade,
going back to 1984, to call that a middle‑of‑the‑road year, I
think is being very creative on behalf of the minister.
I
mean, the fact is, we had a horrendous year in 1991, and the exception he talks
about was a public sector strike. He can
try and blame it on previous governments, but the bottom line is, it was this
government that was involved in the negotiations. The previous contracts were
settled. This one was not. There was a lengthy strike. It is reflected in statistics.
Indeed,
we will see what happens in terms of final offer selection, Mr. Deputy
Chairperson, in the future. We will see what
happens in terms of the impact of other actions the government is taking in
terms of labour relations and particularly with Bill 85. But the bottom line is, 1991 was a terrible
year for the
You
would have to go back a long way, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, perhaps not to the
1919 General Strike, but you would not be far off having to go back that far
because perhaps not since probably the mid‑'70s when, at that time, an
anti‑inflation board was a major issue.
In fact, I remember walking a picket line myself in Thompson as part of
the fight at that particular point in time.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, if we could continue this discussion, if the minister
considers 147,402 person days lost, 9,702 workers on strike, a middle‑of‑the‑road
year, I wonder what a bad year is going to look like in the future because this
is a bad, bad situation in this province.
We have traditionally had, if not the lowest, the second lowest number
of days lost to strikes in the province.
Usually, we are second only to
So
I want to indicate that I am identifying this concern. We believe that the kind of labour relations
climate that is being fostered by the government‑‑and it is not
strictly final offer selection or some of the things they have done or are
doing in Bill 85, it is the whole attitude of this government and the way it
deals with working people and the labour movement.
I
mentioned in my opening comments the cuts that have taken place affecting the
labour movement and working people, the kind of distrust that has developed as
to the intentions of this government and culminating again in another bill this
session, Bill 85, which targets labour, targets organizing, says that when people
say yes to a union, well, maybe they do not really mean yes.
The
bottom line is, it is time the government recognized that unions are
democratically selected by the members.
The leadership is democratically elected. It is time for them to sit down and recognize
that. As I have said before, perhaps it
is time for a cease fire in terms of the kinds of things that we have seen back
and forth.
When
I look at this, if ever there was evidence of the need for that, the need for
this government to reach out to the labour movement, to put aside the kind of
legislative and funding attacks we have seen in the last period of time, surely
it is now.
This,
by the way, 1991, was also the year of one of the worst economic performances
ever in this province, 10th out of 10, dead last in terms of GDP. We shrunk.
Our province went back. We still
actually have not even recovered to the level which this government took over
in 1988. We did worse than any other province.
So
this, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, came at a time when the economy was doing badly,
as well, and that is why I say the No. 1 priority of this minister should not
be to be bringing in another Chamber of Commerce inspired bill on The Labour
Relations Act, picking yet another fight with the labour movement. The No. 1 priority of this minister should be
to say, years like 1991 are bad years.
There is a problem out there. Let
us see if we can resolve those problems by working with labour and management, labour
and the business community, and working together.
So
as I said, I appreciate the creativity of the minister's answer. I am sure his colleagues‑‑well, I
think he went even beyond the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) so I know has
had to stretch things just a little bit to make dead last good, that somehow
when you are dead last, and we have the lowest growth of labour income in the
country, that is good for the economy in the long run. I think the last time that kind of economic
policy was tried was in the 1930s with Herbert Hoover and R.B. Bennett, and we
saw how effective it was in those days.
Well,
I think the same sort of creativity is being shown by the minister here, but I
would say to the minister, please just recognize the fact it was a bad year, there
is a problem out there and work with the labour movement and the business community
to resolve it.
In
terms of the conciliation, again, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, before we leave that
section, I will indeed be raising committee concerns about the impact on
conciliation of Bill 85. I think it compromises
the neutrality of conciliators. I
recognize the intent of that section of the bill, but it changes the role of the
conciliator substantially. I believe it
will impact negatively on the ability of the Conciliation department to perform
its services in other areas in terms of providing a neutral process that
conciliation is all about. Conciliation
is totally different from arbitration, and conciliators have a totally
different role, and I know the minister recognizes this.
I
realize it is a dilemma that he has put himself in with Bill 85, but I am
extremely concerned about this. I would
say in terms of the impact of that bill, this is one of the major concerns that
we have over and above the principle of the shift to 65 percent instead of 55
percent, which are important principles.
I think this is going to have one of the most negative impacts unless
there is some way of changing the bill quite significantly. I would appreciate any attention the minister
could provide, and I realize the minister may have a few further comments on
conciliation or in terms of work stoppages in which case I would be prepared to
obviously let him respond before we go on to the next part.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I had an opportunity,
while the member was stopping. I think
he put the challenge to me to identify some years in which we had such a large
number of days lost, and, of course, he would not want me to compare apples to oranges. I think he would agree an apple‑to‑apple
comparison is more fair, so in terms of person days lost per 1,000 of paid workers,
in 1991 with 80 percent of that being accounted by the MNU dispute, we have
412. I can take him back to two years,
1974 and 1975, when we had 422 and 456 days lost. We also had periods in the '80s from time to
time when we were above that particular number, both in absolute terms and in
days per 1,000 of workers.
I
should just tell him, going back through the 1980s in terms of numbers of
disputes, the years in which we had more than 10 disputes that had a strike or
lockout situation were 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985 and 1982. Only in 1983 and 1984 did we have less labour
disputes having eight in each year, so I say to the member, and his experience
with the steelworkers in Thompson knows that one dispute with thousands of
workers throws those days up compared with one dispute with a small number of
workers like we have had from time to time.
I recognize fully that the MNU dispute threw our numbers way out into
the large frame, but in those other years, even going back into the '70s, some
of those were the result of a single dispute in one particular large industry,
whether it be Thompson Inco at Thompson, or some of the larger players, so it
is really hard to get an argument.
* (1540)
One
thing he did say that I will agree with and that is the need to bring the
business community and the labour community together. I think, although we approached that
particular issue from two different political parties, each of whom are noted
to have different constituencies to some degree, and I would challenge that
statement because I am not entirely convinced of it. I say this to him: He would appreciate sometimes the difficulty
it is to do that when political agendas get in the way, and I just make the
comment of some of the difficulties we had.
We
had the Manitoba Federation of Labour make a brief to my colleagues in cabinet
this winter. One appreciates that we
will not always agree on everything, and that is fair ball, but I would just
have him note, you know, a difficulty from our perspective in trying to bridge
that gap. In that brief to cabinet, the
MFL wanted to make a statement about the legislation we brought in last
Christmas dealing with the City of Winnipeg and their business tax, a piece of
legislation, I believe, by and large, the Assembly supported.
The
MFL, who agreed with our position in their brief to cabinet, was not able even
to say that they agreed with that position.
The way they worded it was that they noted the government's
position. They noted it. Well, what does that mean? It was so obvious, the difficulty it is for
the MFL to even say one good word about a government which is not of their political
stripe when they agree with them.
Now,
on the other side of the coin, I know that we always have not agreed on
everything, but I think that underlines the fact that it needs a lot of bridge
building on everyone's part, and we will take our fair share of the
responsibility in that particular area.
He
talked in his opening remarks, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), about the
Chamber of Commerce agenda. I think if he
looks at proposals for legislative change that the Chamber made and he looks at
the package we brought in, yes, there are very significant differences,
certainly in the area of automatic vote, where the Chamber position was for an
automatic vote in every certification situation.
I
say to him, I accept it. In putting
together the package, the argument that was made by the Manitoba Federation of
Labour and by others in the labour caucus at the Manitoba Labour Management
Review Committee, is the argument that the purpose is to determine the will of
the majority, and there are a variety of ways to do it. Where you sign up significant numbers of
members by card, that is representative of the will of the majority.
I
accepted that argument. There are other
areas where obviously there is a great need in this province to bring parties together. I think the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton)
would agree with me that strained labour‑management relations in
If
there is one lesson for all of us, whether the Federation of Labour, Chambers
of Commerce, CFIB, New Democrats or Conservatives or Liberals, it is that the
time to get into the rhetoric in which we all engage from time to time is
quickly slipping away on us as we face momentous economic difficulties in a
quickly shrinking world.
The
need for all of us to come to the table and appreciate each other's position‑‑and
I do not just say that for labour appreciating government or management's
position, but for management recognizing the right of people to organize and bargain
collectively is fundamental to building that relationship.
So
I think in many ways the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and I would agree on
some of those fundamentals. I would say
to him today, I recognize we all have a long way to go to building those
relationships. There is a long history
in
I
point no fingers at anyone in this process, because I think blame for that goes
on everyone's shoulders, but it is time, as the member has rightly pointed out,
that we start building better relationships.
I
am ready for more questions, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr.
Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would suggest
dropping Bill 85 would go a long way towards building better relations with the
MFL. I hope the minister would also
acknowledge as well, because he talked in terms of the Manitoba Federation of Labour,
the work that was done on the Crocus Fund, you know, the one example of where
there has been some co‑operation.
I
am sure we will continue this debate on Bill 85. I do not want to extend it now, but I really
think the minister should understand the frustration of the labour movement
having had five sessions in a row of antilabour legislation, of having the
Labour Education Centre funding cut, seeing the Unemployed Help Centre, with
which it works very closely, having its funding cut, having seen the cut of a
$4,000 Labour College scholarship, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
I
think, if the minister reflects on what has happened the last four, going on
five years of Conservative government, he will recognize why it is a little bit
difficult for the Manitoba Federation of Labour to sit down with cabinet and
find very much good to say about the government, let alone in terms of the economic
record of the government. So I will
leave it at that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
We can continue this debate if the minister wants, but believe you me,
we will do it in Bill 85.
I
have some other questions in terms of workplace safety and health next. There is a recent report‑‑which I
know I still have not had the opportunity to go through in terms of detail‑‑which
pointed to the continuing fact of problems in terms of safety and problems in
terms of health in the workplace.
I
would like to ask the minister if the minister has had the opportunity to
review the report that came out just recently, some of the continuing problems
we face in the workplace and what response his department will be putting into
place to deal with the continuing fact of deaths and injuries in the workplace
in
(Mr.
Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am looking
for a bit of a clarification from the member for Thompson.
First
of all, I would like to introduce, no stranger to the member for Thompson, Mr.
Tom Farrell, who is the Director of our Workplace Safety and Health
Division. Mr. Farrell wished me to advise
the member for Thompson that it is snowing in his constituency at the present
time.
If
the member could just clarify for me, is he talking about the newspaper reports
on Dr. Anna Lee Yassi's report?
Yes,
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, for the member's information, the particular
report to which he refers was done by that particular unit. I think that the ongoing work of that unit was
not done in consultation with the department or in accessing our
information. I think it was a general,
generic report that was done. We are in
the process of analyzing that.
I
can tell him, there is a fair bit of information floating around right now
about accidents. Statistics
Interestingly
enough, that information was done with interviews of employees, workers, in the
workplace. From that, information
suggested that approximately 2 percent of accidents, all types of accidents,
occur because of problems in the workplace, as opposed to a host of other
factors. I am not trying to downplay
that in any way, but I am just trying to demonstrate to him that we have a
whole bunch of conflicting information in terms of extent of difficulties and
where they are coming from, and we are in the process of analyzing that particular
material.
* (1550)
There
has not been, I would say to this member, a great deal of work, hard and fast
work, and data that has been available to us.
I say this to him as well, one of the innovations that we have made in
the branch in the last year that I am particularly proud of is we now have a
computer link with the Workers Compensation Board, where for the first time in
the history of the branch, going back to the early '80s, we are beginning to
get specific information on where our accident claims are coming from.
Obviously,
one good source of information where there are accidents or diseases related to
the workplace is when affected employees file claims with the Workers
Compensation Board. Until this year,
there was no flow of that information in a specific way to the Workplace Safety
and Health branch. So to a large degree,
they were both operating in isolation of one another. We are now in the process of building that
kind of database that will allow us to target the efforts of the branch, and I
think the member would agree that is a significant improvement, and I believe
we are one of the few places in Canada where that is actually taking place.
Mr.
Ashton: I was wondering if the minister could provide
information on the current situation in terms of injuries, both fatal and
otherwise, and also indicate in terms of Workplace Safety and Health that one
SY was eliminated from the professional and technical division. What position was that?
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, with
respect to inspections and accidents and stop work orders, I would refer him to
page 69 of the Annual Report of the department where that is listed in some
detail. If I could ask the member to
please repeat his specific question with respect to the staff year.
Mr.
Ashton: Yes, the professional/technical position in Workplace
Safety and Health that was eliminated‑‑one support position.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the
specifics regarding this staff position had to do with an individual being moved
into Workplace Safety and Health last year for some personnel reasons that I am
sure the member would appreciate it would not be appropriate to discuss at this
time. The individual did training in the
Workplace Safety and Health area and has since been reassigned. So it was moving a position from one branch
into Workplace Safety and Health for personnel reasons, and then that
individual has moved out to another branch with that staff year.
Mr.
Ashton: In terms of inspections, I was wondering if
the minister could indicate some analysis as to why there has been a decrease
in terms of the number of inspections in recent years. It has fluctuated
somewhat, but I am wondering if there is some underlying reason for the
decrease. Is that the work of health and
safety committees? Is it a different
type of inspection? But there certainly, since '87‑88, has been a
significant drop in terms of the number of inspections on an average basis,
including last year.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in this particular
area the general reason why there has been that decline is because we have now
started, even prior to this year, targeting our inspections. There had not been in the operations of the
branch up to a few years ago a general policy to find out the areas where we
were having the most difficulty targeting our inspections and doing very
thorough work when we did our inspections.
There were accident investigations and just a general blanket
inspection. So we were not really
getting into the places where we are having the difficulty.
We
started to analyze where we were having the greatest risks; the branch did a
fair bit of work in deciding to target on areas where we were having reported
accidents. That type of industry is
getting into targeting it, and we will be refining that even more since we now
have access to specific firm data from the Workers Compensation Board. So, although the number of inspections is
reduced, we are targeting our inspections.
We are also spending more time and effort when we do the inspections to ensure
that we are not just walking out, but that there is appropriate follow‑up,
that we are working with Workplace Safety and Health committees in specific
places to solve the problems and reduce injury and illness in the areas where
there is greatest risk of injury and illness.
Mr.
Ashton: I would indicate my concern‑‑I
note, for example, from the information that the minister referred to me
earlier that essentially, for example, the number of investigations of fatalities
has actually increased. I point in this
case to the fact that obviously the degree of investigation be fairly significant. There is a shift, obviously as indicated by
the statistics, in terms of more investigations of accidents.
Concern
has been expressed to me, I know by people who work, in terms of workplace
safety and health, in the workplace about the need for, if anything, additional
inspection. That is why I raised the
concern in the SYs. I realize that it
was only one SY, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am not trying to make any big
deal about that.
I
accept the minister's explanation in terms of the personnel aspects, but the
bottom line is that concern has been expressed by many people I have talked to,
that if there was need for additional inspection, I would say particularly in
the city of
I
know Mr. Farrell, for example, I am sure will reflect on his experience with
Inco in Thompson. When someone dies in Thompson
or gets seriously injured, it is your neighbour, somebody you know, it hurts
everybody. It does not matter what job
you have, where you live, you know who it is.
I
know in the case of Thompson over the years there has been a significant
decrease in the number of fatal accidents, particularly serious accidents as
well, particularly underground, because of some of the programs that have been
put in place there, some initiated by the company, some by the union, some joint
programs. I have seen that difference
and I do have a very serious concern about the city.
I
am not saying that it is deliberate, but I am saying it is a different
mentality in some operations in the city, in the sense that there can be‑‑I
do not know how to phrase this, I do not want to seem to be unfair to everyone,
I am not trying to cast aspersions on a whole group of people, but it is all
too easy to say, oh, well, that is the risk of the job. I suppose that is what they said at Westray
in
But
there are many industrial plants in
I
do not believe that changes in Workers Compensation rates, experienced rating
and what not is in any way, shape or form going to do anything of that
nature. In fact I would really put this
on the record more of a concern. I am
not, once again even criticizing the minister, but I really believe that
particularly in the city there needs to be‑‑perhaps using the
example, and I do use Thompson as example, of what I have seen there.
I
actually first worked at Inco 20 years ago, my first summer job when I was
16. I remember the attitudes towards
safety and health in those days. I
remember the big fight over whether to wear safety glasses or not. A lot of people viewed that as a major
infringement on their personal freedom and liberty.
* (1600)
Believe
you me, it caused as much commotion within the union when a lot of people found
that the union was supporting that because it was safe. So it has come a long way from there to today
where safety procedures are much greater.
You have joint safety and health committees and you have an ongoing
process of dealing with health and safety issues on a joint basis, which is really
partly legislative, but has predated that.
Inco
and Local 6166 in Thompson have for many years sat down and discussed safety
matters. So I would hope that there
would some sort of learning from that experience. I think Mr. Farrell obviously can contribute
quite a great deal on that since I know he was a forerunner of that, and
pioneered many cases in Thompson from Inco's standpoint in improving health and
safety.
I
do not have any further comments unless the minister has perhaps some further
comments.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I could
not agree more with the member for Thompson, the importance of attitudes and
the importance of people to buy into safety being important. I know we can have a whole debate about
experience rating, et cetera, and that is really for another day. But I am sure the member for Thompson, just
for his information, I found it a fascinating number when we started to get
information from Workers Compensation Boards about firms and their experience
with accidents.
We
asked for a list of the best and the worst.
We used, just for the information of the member for Thompson, the basic number. Those who were having benefits paid out two
and a half times what they paid us in assessment being on the bad list, and those
who were paying us two and a half times in assessment what we were paying out
in benefits on the good list. We had 50
or so firms on each list, and what I am sure the member for Thompson would be
totally fascinated by was the fact that they were people in exactly the same
industry, doing exactly the same thing on the good list and the bad list.
It
only proves, and I think reinforces the member for Thompson's point, that if
you have safety as a priority in the workplace, you have the representatives of
the employees, their union and their management working together. It is usually getting management wanting to
buy into it. I admit that very, very
freely here.
You
have to get the people buying in. They
are able to do something about it. Just
one quick example, Fisons‑Western, in my constituency and in La Verendrye
constituency, in 1985, had 85 time‑loss claims on 100 employees, or 80
time‑loss claims on 100 employees.
Their management finally decided they had to do something about it. Their union always wanted to, that was UFCW. They got together, and they have now gone
over two years with no time loss.
I
think UFCW, in their recent magazine, highlighted this tremendous joint effort
on safety. I think it reinforces the point
made by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in bringing people together,
partly legislative, partly attitudinal.
We see some success, so let us hope each year, as we go through these Estimates,
we will see improvements in health and safety in our workplaces across
Mr.
Ashton: I would like to move on to the Worker Advisor
Office here and ask a number of questions.
One
concern that has been expressed, I know, by many people that I have spoken too,
injured workers in particular, in terms of the number of cases the Worker
Advisor Office is currently handling, waiting lists, fairly lengthy delays in
dealing with cases, which is not strictly the result of the Worker Advisor Office
obviously, but obviously it has to be tied into Workers Compensation. I have brought some of the historical data
from the annual report in terms of the number of cases.
I
am wondering if the minister could indicate what the current number of cases is
in terms of the number of active files currently under consideration?
Mr.
Praznik: Yes. I
should tell the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I think he will be very
pleased to hear this comment. I think
the Worker Advisor Office is one of the best branches that has ever been opened
to assist people going through the Workers Compensation Board. They do some tremendous work there.
I
give credit to his party when they were in power, it was an excellent
innovation. I am very supportive of it
as is this government. I am pleased to
say, in this particular fiscal year, we have added significantly to the budget
of that particular office. I think over
the four years in which we have been in power, they have received a 53 percent
increase from the '87‑88 Estimates until now, so we have been putting
dollars in there. With the increased funding for this year, we will be able to
put two additional worker advisors into place.
I
should just tell him, in terms of the numbers that he is seeking, we have‑‑in
fact, perhaps it would be best for me to share directly the information I have
in terms of files open, carried over, cases handled, et cetera. I think what he will see is that we are
fairly consistent with 1990‑91, although we are now handling a very
significantly greater number of cases where we are just providing information
to the employees or to the workers who call.
I
am assured by staff over there, that some changes they have made in procedure
and with the two additional staff, that we should be able to eliminate the
waiting list for a worker advisor within the next number of months. So he has identified a problem, certainly we
have, we are working with the additional staff to resolve that. We have spent a fair bit of time, in terms of
training and working with our people over there, to ensure that office is
running by and large like a small law office in order to handle the needs of
workers dealing with the Workers Compensation Board.
If
the member will give me some indulgence, if staff could just photocopy this
list, we will provide it to our two critics.
Mr.
Ashton: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to
indicate, certainly I know in the past we have talked about the need for additional
resources in terms of the Worker Advisor Office to identify problems with
waiting lists. It is my view, incidentally
too, that we are likely to see an increase in the number of appeals given some
of the legislative changes that have taken place. So I would certainly welcome additional
resources in this particular area, and I think it is important to recognize that
we have to be cognizant of the real needs in this area in the future.
I
want to also ask a question in regard to the Worker Advisor Office as to whether
the minister is making changes currently in terms of allocation of staff. I know concern has been expressed in
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I can
assure the member today with respect to the office in
Mr.
Ashton: I would certainly appreciate it, because I
know it is a significant concern in Brandon, particularly given the number of
people served in that area, in the Westman area. I think it is important to maintain that
particular position.
I
have other comments which probably will be more appropriate in terms of Workers
Compensation and our critic will probably be raising areas in there. So I would like to move on to Employment Standards
if I might.
I
just have a couple of very brief questions and I have asked this of every
Labour minister that I have had the opportunity to ask questions to in this
committee. It is a very simple one. I understand there is a current review
underway of Employment Standards. I
think this review has been kicking around for quite some years.
I
would like to ask the minister: Is the
minister looking at any changes in terms of Employment Standards in the
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would
like to just clarify. I know we have had
this exchange in the House in Question Period.
When we did the review of labour legislation and we invited all of the
members of Labour Management Review to put forward proposals, a number of the
proposals that were put forward by the participants in that process involved
changes that were outside of The Labour Relations Act and in the realm of The Employment
Standards Act. At that particular time,
what we thought best was to put those discussions over until the fall of next
year, and if there are some areas where we can reach some mutual
recommendation, then it would be up to me as minister to bring them forward to
cabinet and my colleagues for consideration.
So
that review, in essence, comes out of the general labour law discussions of the
Labour Management Review Committee. In fact,
my preliminary sense of the two caucuses when I had met with them was there
were some specific areas where they could find some mutual agreement for
change.
* (1610)
I
would just point out to the member for Thompson, I know he has referenced
before the various Labour bills that we have brought in the last five years to
this House. I just point out to him, in
addition to the Crocus Fund legislation which was labour legislation, labour‑related
legislation, we also brought forward amendments to The Employment Standards Act
and those amendments by and large came out of the Labour Management Review Committee
and came with the unanimous consent of that committee and were welcomed by both
parties. So it was built by that kind of
process.
I
would hope if we were to see any changes on employment standards that it would
come out of that same particular process, and as I indicated earlier, my
initial sense of the two caucuses were there were some areas that they wanted
to explore in the fall, and I have no problem with them doing that.
Mr. Ashton:
Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would hope
that the minister would be looking at changes.
I will perhaps repeat on the record some of the areas I would suggest be
looked at, and I have mentioned this to previous ministers. I have mentioned in the House in terms of a
situation affecting the disabled, removing some of the discriminatory
provisions in the act. A recent report
done by the MLPH pointed to the fact that they had, I think, very few
incidences where employers had paid less than the minimum wage anyway. In terms of private employers, most pay at or
higher than minimum wage. Private
employers are generally quite happy with disabled employees, consider them a
positive contribution to the workplace, so I would ask the minister to look at
that. I know it is a major concern with
the MLPH and other disabled individuals.
I
would also ask if the minister would consider looking at the whole question of
family leave, bereavement leave, et cetera.
There was a recent report out that showed that there has been a
significant increase in the number of days lost, supposedly to illness, but in
many cases because of the pressure of two‑income families, both parents
working, where a child becomes sick, or there is a death or illness in the
family. Right now people have to lie, basically. They have no right to that kind of leave
outside of Quebec, I believe, which does have some provisions in terms of
family bereavement leave.
I
want to say, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think that is important. I am currently, in fact in about five
minutes, going to be going back to snowy Thompson because I have my own responsibilities
to look after my children. My wife had
to go to
I
think surely this is one area where we can get some sort of nonpartisan
agreement. I know Conservatives like to
talk about family values. What could be
more in keeping with family values than allowing for parental leave, sick leave
and bereavement leave?
So
I would throw those suggestions out because I know often we are criticized in
the opposition for not making positive suggestions. I think those are just a few areas in terms
of employment standards we could start.
I have many other suggestions I could make in terms of employment
standards, in terms of vacations for example.
I know if you look at the situation in
I
have a couple more questions just generally, and I would just like to ask a
couple of questions on some of the funding cuts that I had mentioned earlier. I was wondering if the minister considered for
this Estimates reinstating some of the funding cuts, whether it be in terms of
the Labour Education Centre, which, by the way, is continuing and has been able
to achieve some funding‑‑I am not blaming the minister for these cuts;
these were made by previous budget years‑‑the Unemployed Help
Centre where funding once again was phased out, whether the minister considered
at all reinstating some of the funding that is necessary to keep those
organizations operating on behalf of working people in the province.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, first of all, I have asked my staff to
obtain another copy for the Liberal critic, but I would like to provide this to‑‑I
have one copy for Mr. Ashton and another one will be coming for Mr.
Lamoureux. I just want to point out it
is one of the projects we did in the department this year in the Employment Standards
Branch, and Mr. Jim McFarlane who is the director of that branch has joined
us. It is our employment standards law in,
I am very proud to say, simple easy‑to‑read English.
Up
until this particular point, going back over a number of decades, most of our
material for information was simply references to statutes, very hard to figure
out. It sounds like common sense. It certainly is. We put together an easy‑to‑read pamphlet
on employment standards law this year, and we found it very successful. I just wanted to provide that to my critics.
We
have also done some work in the multicultural community, and I believe we have
published our first employment standards pamphlet in the Filipino language and
will be doing more of that in order to get that information, particularly into
new immigrant communities where information on what people's rights and entitlements
are not always available, so we are trying to provide that.
His
comments on employment standards law I have certainly noted, and I think there
is some room for agreement and we hope to use the‑‑I know I am here
to set government policy on the matter.
Today I know Labour Management Review wanted to consider that further
and look at some potential recommendations to government, so I hope that
process will go on in the fall time.
With
respect to specific grants, the Labour Education Centre that the member
referred to, I believe their funding that they received from the province was
reduced or eliminated prior to me becoming minister. I understand from staff that we did do a project
with them some time ago, when Mrs. Hammond was the minister, for some
$60,000. So we continue to work with
them, although we have not had the luxury of making ongoing annual grants.
You
know, regrettably, we were not able to fund a student to the Labour College of
Canada. We have all been asked to make some
sacrifices, but we have in fact helped out in some other areas. The Workplace Innovation committee, we
provided some printing for them and some other areas. So wherever we can help out in various areas
with the resources that we do have, we try to.
I do not know if that answers the member's question specifically but
that is the information that I have.
Mr.
Ashton: Yes, I was not in any way, shape or form
suggesting the minister had cut the funding.
It was his government though. I guess what I was hoping was that the
minister would be able to take a lead role in having it reinstated.
I
mean, I just had the opportunity to visit the Labour Education Centre just a
couple of weeks ago. To give you an idea
of the kind of work they are doing, they are working on some very significant
projects now in conjunction with management people. I really think that, once
again, the Labour Education Centre was the victim of some knee‑jerk
budgetary decisions a number of years ago, in the same way the Unemployed Help
Centre has been the victim of some knee‑jerk government decisions‑‑that,
because it is labour, this is an area the government can cut because, well,
they do not support us anyway. That sort
of mentality.
I
really wish that the minister would take some of his colleagues, particularly
the ones that sit on Treasury Board, down to the Union Centre to talk to the
people operating the Unemployed Help Centre and the Labour Education Centre and
talk to them about the work they are continuing to do, because the bottom line
is, I cannot see the justification at all for not reinstating some form of
support.
It
was not major funding in the context of a government that spends billions of
dollars, but it provided really significant improvement in the case of the
Labour Education Centre in terms of education on workplace issues and in the
case of the Unemployed Help Centre, assistance to the unemployed. I would really make a plea to the minister to
look at reinstating this kind of funding.
I am talking about core funding to both these organizations, along with the
$4,000 Labour scholarship. I really
cannot seriously believe and accept that the $4,000 item that has been in place
since 1963 had to be cut because of the financial situation of the province.
It
just happened to be the
* (1620)
I
do not mean program funding. I am
talking about core funding that allows them to continue with the
activities. You know, they have done a
tremendous job despite the cuts, and they are determined to stick around. I find it really sad, because I have seen the
work they do.
I
really cannot believe the mentality of some of the cabinet ministers who must
have made that decision sitting around the Treasury Board table, because they
are ignorant of the work that those organizations have done. I would really throw that out as a
suggestion, as a challenge to the minister.
I am not criticizing the minister personally for these cuts. They were made before he became a minister,
and now he has a chance to reinstate them, and if not in this fiscal year, in
the upcoming year.
Mr.
Praznik: I would like to just point out to the member
for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that in total grant dollars that the Department of
Labour provides from about $270,000 in 1989‑90, we now provide somewhere
about $576,000 in this particular vote.
The
lion's share of that money has been going into labour adjustment grants to
workforce adjustment committees. So we
have had a tremendous draw on our resources in those particular areas, and we
have had a fair bit of success with those committees. I think anyone who has been involved with
them, they have been a most worthwhile exercise.
At
the current time, that tends to be a priority of this department. I certainly will not rule out at any time the
opportunity to look at some worthwhile work that other groups are doing, and I
know, I have been a volunteer at the Unemployed Help Centre in my law school
days. Although their work is primarily in
a federal jurisdiction, we did manage to, as a volunteer there, help people
secure benefits to which they were entitled. As an MLA, from time to time I
have referred people there. So I certainly
am aware of some good work that is going on in those areas. His comments about looking at them some other
day, we are certainly prepared to do that.
But
at this current time, I can appreciate the demand on the resources on the grant
side for the departments has been in the area of the labour adjustment
committee. So it is a matter of juggling
and finding resources to do this work in some difficult times, when there are
great demands on those resources. So I appreciate
his comments.
Mr.
Ashton: Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we can
get into a question of priorities of this government I am sure in some great
detail. I know we could point to many
other expenditures that the government has no difficulty in finding funds for
which we would consider of lesser importance.
I
look at the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) current trip to Rio, I wonder how much that
is going to cost the taxpayer, probably considerably more than the
But
I just wanted to, on a more general note, complete my comments, because I do
have to leave to get up to Thompson. I just
wanted to indicate once again that we continue to have concerns in terms of the
role of the government, in terms of a number of areas that I mentioned earlier,
in terms of the labour relations climate, in terms of workplace safety and
health, the need to continue to push ahead in that area.
I
have referenced also a number of other concerns in terms of employment
standards today that I will continue to raise throughout this period of
time. I say to the minister, because he
is in the position now of becoming a veteran minister, I suppose, as Ministers
of Labour have been in the last few years. We have had a quite a turnover going
back the last number of years that I look forward to him putting a stamp on
this department that is different from the previous years.
I
will say once again‑‑and the minister, I know, can take this
comment as a political comment, but I do not mean it as a political comment in
the partisan sense. I believe there are going
to be periods of time when governments change things in terms of labour
relations. I know when we form
government next, there are going to be changes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson.
We
are going to deal with some of the rollbacks that have taken place. I mean, believe you me, it is going to be
very high on the agenda for the next New Democratic Party government. But I say to the minister that for every
period of change, as I said, there is a cease‑fire in the kind of back‑and‑forth
nature we have in terms of labour relations, because it tends to be adversarial
in
We
have the highest or second highest strike rate in the world periodically. I say there has to be a breather, a gap, a time
for the equilibrium to re‑establish itself. Despite our ongoing political differences,
there has to be a time.
I
say to the minister, surely now is such a time, with the economy and the
situation it is in, with the need for co‑operation, economically, to put
a stop to the kind of continuing fights over labour relations issues as we see
with Bill 85, as we see with some of the funding cuts that have taken place.
I
really say that, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, because I really believe in
this province, that we are living in a bit of a fool's paradise. Because if we believe that it is just going
to go away, that we are going to recover from the recession, that recovery is
just around the corner, well, we may recover relatively, we may get back to
where we were in 1988 in terms of growth after five years of lost growth and
lost opportunities, but I am not so sure it is going to be as clear as that.
I
think it is going to require the co‑operation of everyone in this
province, on the economic side, to get us to the point of growth, of
sustainable development, with the kind of goals that I think we all share.
I
really believe that the agenda of this government on labour relations for the
fifth session in a row, focusing in on changes to The Labour Relations Act,
changes that affect working people, I think that is wrong. I think it is wrong at any time, but it is
particularly wrong at this time. So I
hope that with some of the discussions we have had in Estimates today there
will be opportunity for that kind of message to hopefully influence the minister
and, perhaps more importantly, the ministers' colleagues.
I
hope the minister is saying these things internally now. I hope he is, and I hope there will be a
change in attitude because we just cannot afford the luxury of year in and year
out having this kind of thing happen. We
need right now to co‑operate. We will
have our debates over labour issues in the future, but the bottom line is let
us put those aside for awhile and try and rebuild this province. Thank you, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I have a number of specific questions that I would
like to ask the minister, at the very least with the hopes of passing
everything, so that we can have a bit of a philosophical discussion quite
possibly on the ministerial salary. But
I will at least attempt to pass everything up to the ministerial salary, if I
can get in all the specific questions that I have before me.
I
want to address four pieces of correspondence that I have received. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) had made
reference to the Manitoba League of Physically Handicapped Inc. that have sent
letters, I believe, to all three parties.
It
makes reference to the ministerial permission in allowing an employer to give
less than the minimum wage, and is advocating that this be abolished because in
reality it is just not necessarily needed.
My
question to the minister is, does the minister have any groups or individuals
who are suggesting to him at this time that in fact that power should remain
with the minister?
* (1630)
Mr.
Praznik: This, as I am sure the member can appreciate,
is not a simple, clear‑cut issue.
I am advised by our staff in Employment Standards that there are
approximately 130 sub‑minimum wage situations in the province which we
and the Department of Family Services are in the process of assessing.
(Mr.
Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
I
think the member can appreciate currently, or the member is fully aware, that
it requires a permit to pay someone under the minimum wage. Under my direction, our staff with the
Department of Family Services are trying to assess those 130‑plus situations
and determine where and if, in fact, there are situations where a minimum wage
payment would end the job opportunities.
I am sure the member would not want to see a situation happen where by imposing
a rule fully across the province that we ended up eliminating positions where
people were employed in some way that they otherwise would not be. That is obviously the balance one has to
maintain.
We
are trying to get a handle at the current time on the reality out there. What are the true facts with respect to those
situations? I can assure him that I
would not want to issue any permits. I
have not issued any permits since I have been minister, although we are in the
process of doing a delegation to the appropriate staff in the Department of
Family Services, but we would not want to issue those permits as a government
unless they were truly in a situation where the positions would not otherwise
exist.
We
have to assess that, and I certainly note the report and appreciate the report
that the member refers to. But, before
one way or another that the government would make a commitment to eliminate
those situations, we would, and I am sure the member can appreciate this, want
to have a handle on just what is out there and what the effects of that would be. I do not think any of us would want to see
the situation where we would act with good intentions and end up at the end of
the day removing some of those placements where people are finding an
opportunity to do some meaningful work.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would concur with
the minister in the sense that we all want to be sensitive to this particular
issue, but I would ask the minister: How
many permits have been issued specifically last year and the year previously?
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am going to share
with the member an experience that I became aware of in dealing with this
particular issue. Some time ago I was on
Peter Warren's or one of those programs, and someone from the organization to
which he was referred called in and mentioned about these permits. I had been minister of the Crown for about
eight or nine months at that stage of the game and had never issued one. He pointed out to me, well, my department did
not issue them. I said, well, I think we
do. So we went back and we found out
that going back many years ago the Department of Family Services was issuing permits,
and I think things had just been delegated.
So we had to get a handle on where things were, and that is what we are
in the process of doing at the current time.
We
have now delegated that authority to the Department of Family Services because
I am sure, as the member for
I
understand currently that we are in the process with the Department of Family
Services of drafting a set of guidelines for subminimum wages for disabled
workers when those applications come forward.
They would have to be‑‑and that is what we are trying to
ensure that there are very, very strict guidelines. If there is no basic reason to have a
subminimum wage other than the fact that the job would not exist without it, we
would not issue that kind of permit. So
we are trying to get a handle on the situation, as I have indicated, and deal
with it, I think, in a responsible way.
I am sure all members of this Legislature appreciate the situation and
certainly do not want to see that abused in any way.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all I would ask then
of the minister is, if he can report back in some way through correspondence
some time in the next few months in terms of how many permits, if in fact
Family Services has issued some, have gone out in the last couple of years, and
possibly maybe some sort of comment on the 130 permits that are currently out
there.
Having
said that, I wanted to go on to another issue, and what I did is that I, about
a half hour ago, 45 minutes ago, had given his support staff a copy of two
letters that I just wanted to get the minister's comments on the record
for. One of them is from a welder, or
both of them actually deal with welding, and this one particular individual is
calling into question why it is that there is one particular awkward welding
procedure that is needed in order to pass this test, yet the welding community
at large does not necessarily use that particular weld at all or virtually at
all, with very few exceptions, and makes‑‑it is known as the F‑4
weld, from what I understand. The
suggestion that he is making here is that because that type of a weld is not used
year round when it comes to doing the test, it jeopardizes, as the individual
says in the letter, many livelihoods.
I
would ask for the minister just to comment on that particular letter.
Mr. Praznik: Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, I understand that the difference of opinion originated in
that our department was very strictly complying with the testing procedures
that have been agreed upon nationally, where some other provinces were allowing
some latitude for various ways in testing for that particular weld.
I
am pleased to provide the member with a copy of my response to Mr. Hiebert, and
I think that some accommodation has now been made with respect to this
particular matter.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Moving on to the next piece of correspondence
I had, again, it was from
I
am wondering if the minister might be able to comment as to if the government
is considering any movement to provide some sort of class opportunities, so
that in fact they would be able to write the tests that are necessary upon
leaving the institution.
Mr.
Praznik: I am advised that our branch would like to determine
exactly the training that goes on at Stony Mountain Penitentiary, if it is the
same as
So
we will have a look at that. I thank the
member for bringing that to the branch's attention. I am sure they will move quickly to determine
whether or not the training at
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know a number of
months ago the minister, with the federal minister, made the announcement of
the Program for Older Worker Adjustment, which was a considerable sum of money
that dealt with Burns Meats. I have
received one piece of correspondence that the individual met part of the
criteria in the sense that, from what I understand, 180 consecutive months is
required. In fact, this particular individual
had 300 months of service. Now the
problem was that this particular individual was not quite 55. I believe he was a year or two off from that.
I
am wondering if the minister can comment in terms of the criteria. Is there any room for flexibility, or does he
feel that there is a need for some sort of flexibility?
* (1640)
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would be less than
remiss if I did not say to the honourable member that both myself and my predecessors
Mrs. Hammond and Mr. Connery have shared concerns about the Program for Older
Worker Adjustment.
As
the member may not be aware, this particular program is funded 70 percent by
the federal government. We only provide
30 cents of every dollar. The criteria
was set in agreement with them, and as you can appreciate, to capture those 70‑cent
dollars we had to agree, by and large, to their criteria.
So
it is a very strict criteria. It
troubles me, somewhat, because you could have two factories, two employers, one
in the RM of Rockwood on one side of the road and one in the city of Winnipeg
on the other, both doing exactly the same thing with the same number of
employees and both close down. The one
in the
We
have requested, and I think we will be doing with our federal counterparts a
very thorough review of the criteria.
But at this present time, because it is a joint program of which the federal
government is the major funder and the criteria are there, there is not the
ability to make the exceptions. I can assure
him that his concern is well noted. It
is something we have shared since we took advantage of this program, and we are
in the process now where we will be getting shortly a review of POWA. As he can appreciate, though, it is a joint
effort and there are two players.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I thank the minister for that response. He is quite right in the sense that there are
two players, and it is good to see that the player on this side in this
particular case is suggesting or at least giving the opinion or expressing the opinion
that in fact there needs to be some flexibility, that it should not be as clear
cut as it is.
I
wanted then to move a bit more into the Estimates book itself and comment on
another issue that came up a number of months ago regarding the faulty gas
furnaces. There were some problems
there. I would ask the minister what the
Department of Labour has done to rectify the problems?
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to introduce
Mr. William Mault who is the director of the Mechanical and Engineering
branch. As the member for
They
are an amalgam of a host of organizations and various provincial governments
participate in that process of developing the standards for furnaces. As I am sure he can appreciate, the jurisdiction
in this area lies within the provinces, but we work together on a national
basis in order to have a set of standards that are applicable across the
country. Obviously, it would be very
difficult if we had various standards for furnaces across the country, although
the standard for the product fit into certain amounts of federal
jurisdiction. So we all work together in
developing the standards through the Canadian Gas Association who is the agent
for doing the testing.
They
tested this particular product, gave it a seal of approval. Our department has responsibilities under
certain legislation for the installations of this equipment where there was not
a particular difficulty. Obviously, the
manufacturer may have some liability if the product was faulty and they were negligent.
At
the current time, a colleague of ours the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) had a
meeting with myself and several of the people involved in which we laid out
various responsibilities. Currently, we are in the process‑‑I
understand that there is work being done on trying to determine exactly what
went wrong. Until we really know that‑‑and
there have been a variety of theories out there. We had a very thorough discussion with some
of the people who were affected by this furnace, but until we know exactly what
went wrong, we will not know where responsibility lies, if there is some way
for those people to recoup their losses.
From my perspective, as Minister of Labour, until we know truly what the
problem was, then we can assess risk and ways of preventing it in the future
and whether or not that is within our mandate.
That is what we are in the process of doing.
Just
hot off the press, I am pleased to tell the member for
I
think this is important news. The member
raises the question at a very important time, and we hope to ensure that information
goes out to the people involved. If the
member would like a copy of the minutes from our meeting with the member for Transcona
(Mr. Reid) and the people involved, I would be pleased to provide it to him.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I hope I did not
destroy a back‑bench question in the future. Again, because of the time, I am just going
to express a concern that we are not going to advocate that every furnace in
the city or the province should, in fact, be inspected at the expense of the
department, but we would suggest that there might be something that the
department can do for those especially on fixed incomes and so forth, to alleviate
some of the concerns that they might have regarding their furnaces. I know, to some extent, that the gas company itself
does some work.
I
wanted to move on to Fire Prevention, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and ask the
minister in terms of how we are making out with the code. There is a bit of a problem from what I understand. This is something that should have been done possibly
a number of months ago, some might even have suggested a year ago or so. I am curious as to what is the holdup, why we
have not seen the government ratify or sign the necessary papers.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is another
situation where the jurisdiction for the respective codes‑‑building
code, fire code, plumbing code, et cetera‑‑by and large, lie within
the provinces. There is some federal
jurisdiction, but we work together through a national codes development
committee that does on a five‑year basis an update of the codes.
I
can tell the member that the current recommendations are presently working
their way through a system. I know there
are some out there who await these changes very rapidly, but I am sure the
member for
We,
within government, have a variety of mechanisms that we use to assess these
codes and make recommendations ultimately to cabinet and cabinet
committees. So it is in that process currently
and working its way through. I should
mention as well that in this particular year, we combined our old building code
committee, Building Standards committee and our Fire Code committee into a
Building Standards committee with appropriate subcommittees. Mr. Gus Thorimbert is the new chairperson of
that committee and they, appropriately so, needed an opportunity to review at
least so the chairperson will be able to make recommendations to us and that
has just recently been done.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I understand that
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, I say this to the member for
I
can tell him now without going into great detail, there were some technical
concerns that were raised with respect to some recommendations. We are in the process of working out those now
in a satisfactory way. They affect
various other elements. We want to make sure that we are doing the appropriate
thing for the
I
would just say to the member, the fact that we are in June trying to wind up
the session and my colleagues in cabinet and myself are busy, as the member for
Inkster is, with so many House duties at this time. It makes it very difficult even just to schedule
meetings.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, I am going to
move on, but with a final note of saying that there are other provinces that do
implement them virtually status quo without any amendments. If we are going to see these types of
problems in the future, that one of the things that we might want to consider doing
is implementing them and then if we are going to have some changes, make those
as recommendations for the original go around, if you will.
I
wanted to move on, and I had a number of questions on the apprenticeship
program. I am going to try and keep
this, too, brief. There are 44 trades,
and there are always new trade designations.
I know that in '90‑91 there were three. Are there any new trade designations for the
'91‑92 fiscal years?
* (1650)
If
additional staff is needed for that, I will just continue on. Another question that I had is in regard to
the demand for the trades that are currently there. Is the government looking at any changes with
the current trades, and what type of demand is out there for those that are
there now?
A
natural follow‑up question to that would be what the minister has in
terms of a future demand for these trades, the areas in particular that the
government often talks about, and I too have talked about, that there are
certain sectors in the economy that we need to concentrate a lot of effort.
I
think the apprenticeship training program should reflect that. I use, for example, our aerospace industry,
our garment industry. There are certain
areas in which I think that we should be expanding some of our expenditures and
programs to ensure that we have those sectors that we feel are an area that we
have to have more resources allocated out to them.
Now,
the minister, because of time, might not be able to and does not have to answer
all of the questions today. He can maybe
possibly send me some sort of correspondence, as I say, in the next couple of
months, but he can comment now if he likes.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, the member's thrust is most appreciated,
and I will undertake today to have my staff review Hansard and provide him with
a detailed answer to all of those questions if that is acceptable to him. I think we have 15 requests currently for new
trades.
Mr.
Lamoureux: A question that I had, and I had asked the minister
during Question Period, was in regard to the Labour Adjustment Program. I would preface it by saying that we have a situation
where the government itself in Manitoba, our national government‑‑and
we have had reports such as the Adjusting to Win report, which talked about the
free trade and talked about the importance of having labour adjustment programs
that are going to be able to facilitate this rapidly changing economy.
Again,
I would ask, if I can quote my colleague from Osborne (Mr. Alcock), a fairly
simple question, and that is, why have we seen a virtual freeze on that
particular program?
Mr.
Praznik: In the interest of time, I would say to the
member for
What
I would like to say to the member for
I
would extend him the invitation today to go down to the unit. We will provide him a list with all of the
projects we have worked on, on what we have managed to accomplish, and I would,
to both my critics, give them the opportunity to meet with staff there and go
through the unit. It is really a very interesting
unit, and I think that would give him some great insight into what is going on
there. It is sort of an unsung secret,
or unknown secret within government, to the credit of those staff.
Mr.
Lamoureux: I likely will take the minister up on
that. It will likely be in September, so
maybe we can plan on booking something in September for it.
Another
question was in regard to the Worker Advisor.
I was pleased with the additional two staff years that were put there, and
would only ask the minister‑‑he tabled for me part of the question
that I was going to ask but not quite as much as I was hoping to receive‑‑in
regard to the caseloads and the backlog and so forth that is out there.
I
would ask if the minister could provide some sort of a history of the
caseloads, let us say from '87 or '88, more so because there was a time when we
first came in back in '88 when there were tremendous backlogs at Workers
Compensation. I want to get a better
appreciation in terms of if the backlog itself has gone down. We have been led to believe it has. Then I would be interested in knowing if the
Worker Advisor has also gone down significantly, or has it been
increasing? I would just ask the minister
if he could, in fact, bring us that type of information.
Mr.
Praznik: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would be very pleased
to provide him with that detailed information.
The only caveat I put on to it is it will be an apple‑to‑apple
comparison over the last number of years.
A previous director at the branch had a policy of opening files even if
they were just inquiries where there was no work to do, whereas our current
policy is to deal with inquiries, not necessarily to open a file.
I
would want that to be an apple‑to‑apple comparison where we are
actually dealing with a file that our efforts are involved as opposed to just a
phone inquiry. My staff is here and will
undertake to provide that information.
You may want to be more specific with the director of the branch as to
what you want.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Just before we leave that particular area, I
know there were a number of calls; I think it was well into the thousands in
terms of telephone calls that are received.
I would appreciate some sort of breakdown in terms of what type of calls
they actually are. So if that is
possible, I would request that. That is
all I will need the ministerial staff really for.
But
I want to make one quick reference to the employment standards. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) made
reference to a number of initiatives. I
know some of those initiatives that he made reference to, in terms of
legislative three‑week holidays, is something that we, too, in fact, had
brought forward a private member's bill.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson, next time when the Estimates are up, we will, no doubt, be
able to get another opportunity to add a lot more time, because unfortunately
this just was not quite enough time for my satisfaction. The next time we will likely have a number of
hours, a couple of hours, allocated out to it anyway.
Thank
you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(b) Executive Support: (1) Salaries $341,900‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $79,500‑‑pass.
2.
Labour Programs, (a) Management Services:
(1) Salaries $1,352,600‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures
$164,000‑‑pass.
2.(b)
Labour Division Administration: (1)
Salaries $153,500‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $28,700‑‑pass.
2.(c)
Mechanical and Engineering: (1) Salaries
$1,493,600‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $281,400‑‑pass.
2.(d)
Fire Prevention: (1) Salaries $1,509,300‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $1,251,200‑‑pass.
2.(e)
Conciliation and Mediation Services: (1)
Salaries $398,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $53,300‑‑pass.
2.(f)
Pension Commission: (1) Salaries $262,300‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $55,700‑‑pass.
2.(g)
Pay Equity Bureau: (1) Salaries $157,800‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $79,500‑‑pass.
2.(h)
Apprenticeship and Training: (1)
Salaries $1,041,200‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $124,400‑‑pass.
2.(j)
2.(k)
Workplace Safety and Health: (1)
Salaries $2,934,400‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $690,700‑‑pass.
2.(m)
Worker Advisor Office: (1) Salaries
$502,900‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $50,500‑‑pass.
2.(n)
Employment Standards: (1) Salaries
$1,501,000‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $149,200‑‑pass.
2.(p)
Labour Adjustment: (1) Salaries $302,700‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $402,000‑‑pass.
Resolution
102: RESOLVED that there be granted to
Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15,669,400 for Labour, Labour Programs, for
the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
3.
Labour Special Programs: (a) Payment of
Wages Fund $570,000‑‑pass.
Resolution
103: RESOLVED that there be granted to
Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $570,000 for Labour, Labour Special Programs,
for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
The
last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Labour is item
1. Minister's Salary. At this point, we
request the minister's staff to leave the table for this consideration of this
item 1.(a) Minister's Salary. At this point
we request the minister's staff to leave the table for the consideration of
this item.
Item
1.(a).
* (1700)
Mr.
Lamoureux: Very quickly, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I did
not enter into the great philosophical debate that the minister and the member
for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) had, and I can assure both members that in fact on
Bill 85 I will be making reference to the statement of purposes and so forth at
that time.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed.
Resolution
101: RESOLVED that there is to be
granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $442,000 for Labour, Labour Executive,
for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, have we completed the
Estimates?
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: This completes the Department of Labour. We will move on to the Civil Service
Commission at our next sitting.
Mr.
Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just before you look
at the clock, I would like to offer to my two critics, on loan basis, to try
out with their children and in their constituency two of our recent products at
the Fire Commissioner's office. This has
become a bit of a tradition in these Estimates, and I would like to provide
them to them.
Mr.
Deputy Chairperson: The time being 5 p.m., time for private members'
hour. Committee rise.
JUSTICE
Madam
Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Will the Committee of
Supply please come to order. This
section of the Committee of Supply is dealing with the Estimates for the
Department of Justice. Would the
minister's staff please enter the Chamber.
We
are on Item 3. Justice, page 114, (a) Administration and Special Programs: (1) Salaries $113,000.
Mr.
Paul Edwards (St. James): Pardon me, Madam Chairperson, can you refresh
me as to where we are? I heard the page
number, but I believe we have a different book. What is the appropriation number?
An
Honourable Member: Page 48.
Mr.
Edwards: Okay.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 3.(a) Administration and Special Programs: (1) Salaries $113,000‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $17,000‑‑pass.
3.(b)
Civil Legal Services: (1) Salaries
$1,693,000.
Mr.
Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Chairperson, I just have a quick
question.
From
my reading of the Estimates, the department is now charging back all legal
services to government departments. Would the minister have any idea of what
appropriation each department would have for their justice services? Would they have a special line saying justice
services, or would it be under some kind of an administrative appropriation?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and
Attorney General): That expense would be shown by all the other departments in
that "other" category as part of their operating expenses.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 3.(b)(1) Salaries $1,693,000‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $131,000‑‑pass; (3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations
$1,824,000‑‑pass.
3.(c)
Legislative Counsel: (1) Salaries
$1,270,100‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $342,100‑‑pass.
3.(d)
Mr.
Edwards: Can the minister perhaps either give us now
or undertake to give us a list of the current projects the Manitoba Law Reform
Commission is looking at and a progress report on the projects it has been
looking at for some time? In particular,
I think of the one about the professions.
Many years ago, there was a referral to the Law Reform Commission on the
issue of what to do about paraprofessionals and professionals asking for legislation. That is a particular instance, but generally,
a list of the projects the Law Reform Commission is looking at and is going to
look at in the near future would be useful.
Mr.
McCrae: A lot of the information the honourable
member is seeking, I suggest, is available in the annual report of the independent
commission. We will make inquiries of
the independent commission, and they will, I expect, make available to us the
information the honourable member is seeking.
We will pass it on to the honourable member.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I acknowledge that there
is a listing of the projects. One of the
things that is not there and that I would like to know in particular is the
expected date that we might get the report on the issue of professions and what
should be done generally in respect of right‑to‑title legislation,
which so many of them are asking for currently.
* (1440)
Mr.
McCrae: I understand that in the near future, the Law
Reform Commission will put out its discussion paper and enter into that kind of
dialogue with respect to professions in the
Mr.
Edwards: Just one further question, just in terms of
the relationship between this minister and the commission, I understand that
the commission board does determine, on its own, things that should be looked
into that should be reported upon by the Law Reform Commission, but does the
minister as well have the ability to prioritize to indicate to them what he
considers a priority, have them put particular issues at the forefront of their
activity? Does he do that on occasion?
Mr.
McCrae: I cannot unilaterally prioritize the work of
the Law Reform Commission, but if I make a good case, I suggest, the Law Reform
Commission listens. They set their own
agenda, but they do their work based on their own feelings about what kinds of issues
need to be researched and reported. They
also take referrals from myself, and the issue of professions was one of the
ones that we requested the Law Reform Commission to work on. We also made a
specific request a few years ago, for example, with respect to the
If
they see the wisdom of our priorities, then it is up to them to make a
decision, and we are fortunate that they have seen their way clear to embark on
this important work.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 3.(d)
3.(e)
Family Law: (1) Salaries $462,400.
Mr.
Edwards: Back some time ago, speaking to the Law Reform
Commission, they issued a report on The Dower Act. Back two years ago in this House, we made
substantial amendments to many of the marital pieces of legislation. At the time, there was a commitment from the
minister to bring in a new Dower Act or a renewed piece of legislation in that
area. That has not been forthcoming. I wonder where the research and development
of that piece of legislation is at this point.
Mr.
McCrae: If the honourable member looks at today's
Order Paper, on page 8, he will see Bill 88 for second reading, The Homesteads,
Marital Property Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act. [interjection!
The
honourable member asks if this represents our entire response to the Law Reform
Commission of 1984, that report. The legislation
put through three sessions ago, there were about five bills dealing with
intestacy and various aspects.
That
is, I suggest, very much associated with the present Bill 88, which does
represent our response to the Law Reform Commission and other consultation that
the government has undertaken.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, back about a month ago, I received
a copy of correspondence which was sent to the minister about the Maintenance
Enforcement program, and it was a complaint which was lodged by an individual
whose name was Mr. Jeffrey Vincent.
He
indicated that he had gotten into a situation where he was requested to pay
maintenance through the program, and he was accused of being in arrears of
$2,400, which he disputed. He was threatened
with summons and garnishment, seizure of property. He felt unhappy that he had been threatened
wrongfully. He goes on to say that he
considered the response of the Maintenance Enforcement program to amount to
harassment in this case.
Now,
I acknowledge that we, of course, want the program to work and to get
maintenance that is duly paid, including arrears. I wonder if the minister has had now a chance
to review this particular complaint and the approach that was taken by the branch
to determine whether or not in fact it was the harassment that was suggested in
terms of the immediate moving of the branch to a summons, a garnishment, a
seizure, and fine and imprisonment in fact was threatened, as well.
I
wonder if the minister has a response to that correspondence at this time.
Mr.
McCrae: The matter referred to by the honourable
member is one the like of which we hear about from time to time in the manner
of maintenance and enforcement.
Sometimes difficulties arise in these areas where sometimes former
spouses or separated spouses do not always agree on arrangements for the making
of maintenance payments.
That
is why we have a maintenance enforcement branch which does assist in every way
legally and possibly that we can to ensure the other recipient spouse receives
what is properly coming to him or her, mostly her.
This
actually does come under the Courts appropriations, and if the honourable
member wants me to get into the details of this matter, we can review our files
and then we can get into a discussion about it in Courts, if that is what he
wants. If he wants to talk about
generalities, I can do that, but we could have assistance from staff from the
Courts Division too, if the questions so indicate. So it is up to the honourable member what he
wants.
Mr.
Edwards: I do not think there is any need at this
point. Perhaps the minister could send me a copy of his response to Mr. Vincent
and that might assist. I assume he may
have done that in any event seeing as I got a copy of the initial letter, but I
would ask him to send me a copy of the letter to Mr. Vincent.
On
this issue, as well, and we can deal with it under Courts, some time ago the
Maintenance Enforcement branch was criticized by many individuals because they
were not answering the phone. They had a tape recording on in the
afternoons. As you know, there are many,
many desperate people who call up regularly. When they do not get money, they
want to complain. There was a lot of
frustration. Has that been
rectified? Is there in fact someone at
the end of the phone every working day during working hours?
Mr.
McCrae: Our usual practice is to make sure if a member
of the Legislature is copied with a letter of complaint or otherwise, our
responses are generally forwarded also to those members of the
Legislature. We can undertake, if the
honourable member wants, to review this situation and report to the honourable
member about that. If we sent you a copy
of correspondence and it has gone missing, we can always make another copy
available if that is necessary, too.
With
respect to the telephone answering again, I recall the issue. I recall our addressing the issue, but there
again, it was done through the Courts Division.
If the honourable member would like, I would be better advised to answer
that question when we get to Courts.
* (1450)
Madam
Chairperson: Item 3.(e) Family Law: (1) Salaries $462,400‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $50,700‑‑pass.
Item
3.(f) Constitutional Law: (1) Salaries
$592,600.
Mr.
Edwards: I just have one question. It struck me as I was looking at these
figures that under the Salaries section, there are less people but it has cost
$140,000 more. Why is that?
Mr.
McCrae: Judging by the line in the Estimates, it is
clear there has been someone added, and we do not have our constitutional staff
sitting with us. I can undertake to
clear that for the honourable member and let him know the staff complement and
the increase in the staff complement that these numbers reflect.
Mr.
Edwards: Just to be clear‑‑and I do not
mind the minister taking it under advisement, but what I am looking at is the Adjusted
Vote '91‑92, salary years 11, quantified at $457,500, year ending March
31, 1993, salary years 9.18, almost two salary years less, cost $595,700. That is a fairly dramatic increase for the
loss of almost two positions. That is
the question. If the minister wants to
address it later, that is fine.
Mr.
McCrae: It is clear, Madam Chairperson, that these
numbers do not paint a picture that is readily explainable. The honourable member does have a point in
wanting to have that cleared up, and I do too, so we will get that information,
and perhaps later this afternoon I could come back to this specific question.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 3.(f) Constitutional Law: (1) Salaries $592,600‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $86,700‑‑pass.
Resolution
97: RESOLVED that there be granted to
Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,329,900 for Justice, Justice, for the fiscal
year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
Item
4. Corrections (a) Administration.
Mr.
Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I just have a few questions
in this area in the hopes that we can move onto other matters.
Can
the minister perhaps table for us in this House statistics on the average daily
inmate population in the
Mr.
McCrae: Yes, Madam Chairperson.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 4.(a) Administration: (1) Salaries $561,900‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $165,900‑‑pass.
4.(b)
Adult Corrections: (1) Salaries
$26,007,700.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, the John Howard Society
sent me some materials in April about restorative resolutions. They had a conference, and I know the
minister and Mr. Demers are aware of it.
They put out a position paper, the purpose of which was to educate
people on restorative resolutions to provide innovative community‑based
responses to offences. They talked about
a number of aspects: financial
responsibility, accountability, compensation, cultural sensitivity and
sentencing options. They came to a
conclusion in their paper that the principles of accountability and
responsibility hold implications for offenders, not just victims and the
community at large. The steering
committee of restorative resolutions indicate that they supported those
principles as the cornerstone of the position paper they put forward and
proposed that the conference seriously consider community‑based
alternatives.
There
was then a program description and structure segment of the conference, and I
am told that there were some concrete discussions and some concrete proposals
that came forward. I have not had the
benefit of seeing those as yet. I wonder
if the minister can indicate what research and discussion is going on in the
Corrections department to expand the sentencing alternatives for our judges.
Mr.
McCrae: The very last few words?
Mr.
Edwards: The question was: What is going on in the Corrections branch in
terms of research and drafting of legislation which might expand the sentencing
options available to courts? I am
looking specifically at measures in the area of restorative justice and the
things John Howard Society has proposed.
Is there in fact an ongoing research initiative to expand and build upon
things like the fine option program and other programs, mediation, which have
been successful in dealing with offenders other than in an adversarial court
system?
Mr.
McCrae: Madam Chairperson, in spite of difficult
times economically and financially for a provincial government, I believe we
continue to enjoy a good working relationship with the John Howard
Society. Indeed, the honourable member
was present with me on a recent occasion when the new human justice facility was
opened over on
Indeed,
the honourable member's question is timely.
I met this morning with Graham Reddoch, who is the executive director of
the John Howard Society, and he made, during the course of our meeting this
morning, a reference to restorative resolutions in the seminar or however you
would call the dialogue that has been had.
He made reference to that, and he will be in further touch with the
government about that, perhaps to offer advice, perhaps to put forward a proposal
of some kind. We always have the door open
for Mr. Reddoch and his people.
The
honourable member will also remember at the opening of that facility that I
made the point that the John Howard Society, since its beginnings with John
Howard, has been able to remain true to the principles that started it all up,
but it is also been able to make changes as society has changed. So the John Howard Society remains a
perfectly relevant organization in today's world as it did back in the days of
John Howard. They are talking about
accountability and responsibility on the part of offenders. That is exactly what the rest of society is talking
about, too. So I think we will continue
to work together and go forward in various areas.
When
we were talking about crime prevention yesterday and the day before, the John
Howard Society name came up in those discussions and will continue to, because
John Howard Society believes, as the honourable member does and as I do, in
crime prevention. That is one way to keep
a person out of correctional institutions:
to have him or her not committing crimes in the first place. So the John Howard Society is committed to
the principles behind crime prevention.
With
regard to the specific question about different or intermediate sanctions, of
course, the honourable member would know that sanctions are dealt within the
Criminal Code for the most part, not to say that provincial authorities do not
have input and say, because we do. We
have these continuing committees of assistant deputies or continuing committees
of officials responsible for corrections and probation and so on. I am told by Mr. Demers, our assistant deputy
minister responsible for Corrections, that he is going to be involved very soon
in further discussion about the federal plans for the future. That is going to happen on June 12, when he
will be meeting with federal officials.
* (1500)
So,
the work is going forward. At this point
I cannot give the honourable member a detailed account of where they are at in those
discussions, but these things have to be of necessity and for the most part
when it comes to legislation‑‑a matter of federal legislation. But that is not to say that we do not have our
input. We do not always get what we
want, but in some of the legislative initiatives brought in by the federal
government in the last few years there are areas where we can see that our input
has been a key part or an important part of the result.
Mr.
Edwards: I appreciate that criminal law is a federal
matter, and I appreciate that they have primary jurisdiction in the area, but
it is clear that the province has played a role and an important one in
developing things and maintaining them, such as the Fine Option Program,
mediation and in the young offenders area, such things as alternative measures
and open‑custody arrangements. In
my view, all of them have been successful and have added to the range of
options open to the courts and therefore have been positive additions. Sometimes there are problems but generally
over time, they become very, very useful programs. I often hear from judges, frustrations that
they would like as many options open to them as possible and certainly support
that.
If
the minister is saying that the department is actively pursuing that on a
regular basis and listening to some of the ideas that are coming out of
organizations like John Howard, then that is good. I encourage the department to do that, given
the very obvious limitations of incarceration in dealing with offenders.
The
increase under the Provincial Remand Centre line of some $356,000 is explained
in the notes as reflecting the higher operating costs within the institution,
start‑up costs and higher volume associated with the new Provincial
Remand Centre. What is meant by higher
volume at the Provincial Remand Centre?
How did that increase the cost by some $356,000?
Mr.
McCrae: Madam Chairperson, as the honourable member
knows, with the present insufficient capacity at the present Remand Centre we
have inmates staying at Headingley on a remand basis. He knows that, so he
knows that some if not all of those people will be coming to the new
centre. We cannot ignore, either, the so‑called
zero‑tolerance policy with respect to domestic violence which is having
its effect on our remand facilities.
So
that would be the volume we are referring to.
For the most part, I think we are talking about moving remand people
from Headingley over to the new centre.
That is what we are talking about when we are talking about increased
volume.
Mr.
Edwards: Well, that leads me to two quick questions
about the Remand Centre: One, what is
the new holding capacity of the Remand Centre; and secondly, when will it be
anticipated that it will open?
Mr.
McCrae: We expect the building to be completed mid‑July. We expect to be able to move in mid‑September. Maximum capacity is 290. That is when you take into account double‑bunking.
The
Remand Centre project is very important to this government, to everyone who is
interested in justice issues. It has
been a long time coming‑‑the honourable member agrees.
The
point that I was about to make, though, was that plan was on the books long
before we ever got here. There is no
criticism coming from me here. This is
an extremely big project and an important one.
So in the four years we have been here a lot of time has been spent not
only in making it happen in more recent years but in the planning before
that. It would be wrong for me to make
any apologies for that, because the department immediately sensed the urgency
that the government felt was attached to this project, and a lot of work had to
be done.
I
know that when you are sort of following the progress in a peripheral kind of
way that, you know, "what is the hold up?" sometimes come to
mind. That is quite understandable, but
a lot of planning goes into this kind of a project. When it is complete and ready to go later
this year there will be a sigh of relief.
We
will still have to be looking ahead, though, because demands never seem to let
up. We are trying very hard, through alternate
measures, as the honourable member has suggested, to find other ways to deal
with offenders. We, like the federal government,
do view offenders who offend against the person in a different way than other
kinds of offenders, and I think that is for very good reason. I am talking about violent crime. There is a different psychology on my part on
that, and we need to keep our eyes and our minds open for how best to achieve
results. Simply warehousing people, I realize, is not ever, probably, the right
way to deal with offenders.
So
it is a constant challenge to try and be on top of the state of the art in the
sense of kinds of programs that are available and the kinds of programs that we
can afford as a province to put into place, so that we recognize that dollars spent
on rehabilitative mechanisms are dollars well spent because of the obvious cost
of running a justice system.
Mr.
Edwards: The minister is quite correct that it has
been on the books for a long time. By my
estimation, 1982 was the first recording in this House. The minister at the time I think was Mr.
Evans, the member for Brandon East. He
is right, it goes back a long time. It
is nice to see a building there now. It has
been on the books almost as long as the
In
any event‑‑[interjection! No, later on we can have an update on
that, but it is very good to see a building.
It has gone through its contortions, but there is obviously success at the
end of the road and that is good.
There
was one question I wanted to ask. There
was a real concern about the air quality in that building because of the discovery
that there had been a gas leak in the soil for 20‑odd years. My question to the minister is: He came up with a plan to deal with that and
vent it‑‑and as I understand it in layman's terms essentially to
vent it in a space between the ground and the start of the building. Fans were going to blow out the fumes.
Has
that system been put in place? If it
has, he says construction will be completed in July. Have air quality tests been taken in the
building to ensure that system is working so that this is not a sick building,
as it were, in which some of the fumes from that enormous amount of gas which
leaked into the soil gets up into the building.
That is our concern, I know of the MGEA whose workers will be in the
building and should be for anyone having to be in the building. Are air quality tests going to be taken? Have they been taken to ensure that the
system the minister chose has been successful?
* (1510)
Mr.
McCrae: There will be a good deal of time spent
between mid‑July when the building is completed till mid‑September
when we actually move inmates in there.
That time will be spent ensuring that all systems are working as they
are supposed to be working. My
recollection of it was that these fumes were found to be there. The design of the building had to be altered somewhat‑‑I
cannot remember the expense involved, but it was over $100,000 to build a crawl
space and a ventilation mechanism to get those fumes out. I am not an expert in gasoline fumes, but I guess
over the years that there will come a time when those fumes will eventually
dissipate but they will not dissipate immediately.
So
we have to make sure that mitigation stuff that has been put in there will do
the job and that, as I say, those two months are there to ensure that all
systems are working. Of course, we will
be making sure that we meet all environmental requirements to ensure that there
is safety in that building for the many, many years that we hope it will serve
us.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 4. Corrections (b) Adult Corrections: (1)
Salaries $26,007,700‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $5,758,200‑‑pass;
(3) External Agencies and Halfway Houses $498,700‑‑pass; (4) Less:
Recoverable from Other Appropriations $170,700‑‑pass.
4.(c)
Correctional Youth Centres: (1) Salaries
$8,558,700‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,234,500‑‑pass.
4.(d)
Community Corrections: (1) Salaries
$6,406,200‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $839,700‑‑pass;
(3) Program Development $1,502,700‑‑pass.
Resolution
98: RESOLVED that there be granted to
Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $51,363,500 for Justice, Corrections $51,363,500
for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
Item
5. Courts, (a) Court Services: (1)
Salaries.
Mr.
Edwards: Well, here we are at Court Services, Madam Chairperson,
and I wonder if the minister might give us an update on a project close to his
heart. I know the
I
know that there was a consultant's report done.
I know that the consultant's report was received and gave some options. I
wonder if the minister is in a position to tell us which option he will be
choosing, if any, and when something might be done. I might just add that the improvements in the
courts are‑‑it is my understanding, certainly some are directed to
better accommodating the judges and the lawyers in a fashion which the city of
Winnipeg has had for some time, but the real advantage of new courts in
Winnipeg has been, in my experience, the ability to have interview rooms and
other such accommodations of the citizens who come to court. Those are very important aspects of a modern
courthouse which
Is
the minister in a position to give us a status report on what is happening with
respect to that project?
Mr.
McCrae: The honourable member agreed with me that it
was necessary to build a new Remand Centre.
He would probably agree with me and the Ombudsman that we need to
upgrade facilities at the
Mr.
Edwards: Yes.
Mr.
McCrae: Yes, he is saying yes. The honourable member agrees with me and the
City Council in Thompson and all the people in Thompson that they are ripe and
ready for new remand facilities there. I
am assuming the honourable member would agree with me on that point.
Mr.
Edwards: I will give you a cumulative answer at the end.
Mr.
McCrae: Now he is telling me, he is going to give us
a cumulative answer at the end.
The
honourable member will agree with me that there are probably a number of other
areas of capital works, including the
So
now I ask the honourable member to help me.
He has been helping me‑‑
Hon.
Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources: That could be your first
mistake, Mr. Minister.
Mr.
McCrae: I do not know, Harry.
The
honourable member has been very helpful in saying the same things I have about
the
We
know that the chief justice of the Court of Queen's Bench for
So
then we come down to a question of how we are going to prioritize our
expenditures. Was it not necessary to
spend those $23 million to build a new Remand Centre to remove inmates from those
inhumane conditions that exist at the
I
come from a community where we run a hospital, we run educational facilities
and other social services.
I
can go into some of the supports that have been provided to the community of
Brandon and southwestern Manitoba by this government, including things like
decentralization and things like a major overhaul and renovation of our Keystone
Centre, the unification of the Family Division of the Court of Queen's Bench and
the conciliation side in terms of family court, downtown redevelopment dollars,
millions of dollars for the upgrade of our sewage disposal system, and a brand
new building in Brandon for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba so that they
can combine their administrative and service delivery functions under one roof. All of those things have happened, and yet
there remains this issue relating to the courthouse.
The
people in Steinbach needed improved facilities for the delivery of court
services, and we have been able to meet that demand. The people of northern
The
point that I am trying to make is that the problems in terms of justice
facilities did not just happen a week or two after this government took office
in 1988. Because of, yes, neglect,
because of need to direct resources into other areas like health care and
education in the past, justice services in the past under previous governments,
plural, those services have not been given the kind of priority that I as a
Minister of Justice would like to see them given.
However,
when you look at the record of the past four years in Justice, any objective
observer‑‑and the honourable member for St. James is objective,
occasionally, and he would agree, too, that there has been a new emphasis, a
different emphasis on justice issues in
* (1520)
So
I think the honourable member was asking something a little more specific than
the answer I have given him response to; but in specific terms, there have been
reviews made of the facilities and how we might approach the problem. There is a need to make decisions for future
upgrading or renovation or facilities in
From
the first go around, it was clear as was the case with the Winnipeg Remand
Centre, the plans that were put together needed to be refined and the second
study refined the plans that were laid out in the first study. What remains now is some decisions to be made
and the availability of the dollars necessary to spend multimillions of dollars
to upgrade the court facility.
As
a person coming from
Yet,
the honourable member for St. James continues to raise the issue of the
So
when it comes to a very bad number of years in a row of government revenues and
it comes to difficult decisions that need to be made about how government
revenues are going to be spent, my advice in the city of Brandon is for sure,
for sure, maintain and, if possible, enhance health care services. Protect what we have and make sure that when
we look to new models of health care delivery, make sure the patient is the one
that you think about. Make sure the patient is your bottom line. If the courthouse has to wait a little
longer, then I guess that is going to have to be necessary. That is about as honest an answer and
straightforward an answer as I can give the honourable member.
The
bottom line is this government will make the right decisions, and this
government also has been listening to the Minister of Justice who identified as
a rather urgent problem the Remand facilities in the city of
Mr.
Edwards: I only comment that I completely understand
that the minister is under many demands for money. Everybody wants money, Thompson,
The
projects the minister talks about in the Justice area and health care are
important. I simply draw to the
minister's attention that in 28 out of 30 administrative support lines in his
department, the amount of money spent this year went up. The total of that is $965,000. I wonder where his priorities are with
respect to that, and how much it might have taken to have done something or
gone some way towards what he committed to do in 1988 which was to try to
improve the courthouse?
I
am just holding him. Whether or not I
think it is priority really is not that relevant in the sense that I am not the
government, but that is why I was so interested to see the minister. Of all the issues in
Since
then he has not seen it as such a priority, rather he sees a $965,000 increase
in administrative support across his department in 28 out of 30 branches; that
is his priority. He says he does not
have money for crime prevention, that is only $100,000. That leaves $865,000. What might he have done in
The
point is that all of the attempts to throw off an excuse as to why the people
of Brandon have not been given some answer does not sit too well with me when
he is increasing his own executive support by 11.5 percent, when the
departmental increase is 4.3 percent and administrative support, across the
board, is $965,000. That is a question
of priorities that he has chosen.
So
do not talk about priorities that he threw aside in 1988 when he put out his
ads in the
Madam
Chairperson, so his arguments ring hollow, I am afraid after four years, and
they did with crime prevention when he used the same excuse two days ago and,
to a lesser extent, admittedly, but to a lesser extent they do here.
I
wonder if the minister can tell us when he is going to make a decision on
this. He has two reports, he tells
me. That is the first I have heard there
are two reports. In other words, there
is the feasibility study and there was a second look at it, as I understand his
answer. When might a decision be
anticipated?
Mr.
McCrae: I do not know if the honourable member speaks
for the Liberal Party of Manitoba or for one particular honourable member from
St. James or just who he speaks for, but he tells me not to talk about
priorities. I bet you, Madam
Chairperson, when that by‑election in Crescentwood comes along, that this
honourable member for St. James will be out knocking on the doors for one Avis
Gray, and saying what a fine member Avis Gray would be‑‑
An
Honourable Member: She is from Cromer.
* (1530)
Mr.
McCrae: The honourable member tells me she is from
Cromer. I know a little bit about this honourable member that we are talking
about. I know she is seeking a seat in
this Legislature representing the people of Crescentwood.
The
honourable member for St. James was talking about priorities and that I should
not talk about priorities. I do not think
he wants to talk about priorities either, because a little while‑‑now
here he is defending the construction of new court facilities in a centre
outside the city of Winnipeg, but where was this honourable member, who is
going to be knocking on doors for Avis Gray, when Avis Gray was sitting across
from me in this Chamber saying, oh, do not fix that roof on that courthouse in Minnedosa;
that is not important; do not fix holes in the roads for people who live
outside the central area, the city of Winnipeg here in Manitoba; do not do
that; spend it on something else that is important to me, a Liberal, and the
honourable member for St. James?
How
is it today‑‑oh, and I forgot.
When it came to construction of health facilities in Minnedosa and
So
the honourable member for St. James ought not to lecture me or anybody else for
that matter, even the members of the New Democratic Party. He ought not to lecture anybody about priorities,
because I sense from time to time that the honourable member's priorities have
more to do with making a point or two in front of the television cameras than
they have to do with improving society in general for Manitobans.
This
is a little debate that comes up from time to time with the honourable member
and myself, and I think it happens every Estimates process or every time he
gets a chance. This is the same
honourable member who on other Estimates exercises spent an inordinate amount
of time on matters that had less to do with delivering justice services to
people than other far less important matters.
The honourable member knows about my criticism of him in those cases,
too.
I
do not propose to raise that criticism of him this time around except to say
that the honourable member for St. James knows very well the kinds of pressures
that are on the justice system. He knows
very well the kinds of pressures that are on governments these days all across
An
Honourable Member: With no help from the opposition.
Mr.
McCrae: With no help from the opposition.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 5.(a) Court Services: (1) Salaries $3,203,700‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $969,400‑‑pass.
5.(b)
5.(c)
Regional Courts: (1) Salaries
$3,585,900.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I want to raise very
briefly the issue of court services in the North and court reporter services, court
clerking. There have been numerous
complaints that have come into my office, I am sure the minister's, from those
in northern
Mr.
McCrae: I commend the honourable member for raising
issues of justice in the North. The
honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) does that occasionally and so do other
honourable members. Justice services are
harder to deliver in northern and remote areas than elsewhere. They do require the attention of government‑‑I
hear the honourable member for The Pas speaking from his seat and I cannot
quite make out what he is saying.
Mr.
Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): I said, you never listen.
Mr.
McCrae: He says, except I never listen, which the
facts of the matter would show that he is very, very wrong about that. Each
time the honourable member raises issues with me, whether they are in writing
or otherwise, I do turn my attention to those issues and try to do my
best. Within the resources that are available
to us, I try very hard to solve the problems.
Indeed,
the staffing situation in the past year at Thompson, The Pas and Flin Flon has
been improved in terms of the actual arrangements and staff‑year
allocations. I can get further information
for the honourable member for those three centres and make it available to him.
The
pressures in the North are there just like they are everywhere else in the
province. I find that if we were to put more
attention on the remote areas, I believe there would be found a way to take
pressures off centres like Thompson, The Pas, and Flin Flon. I believe it is fair to say that my department
is looking, with interest, at proposals to improve Justice services in the
small and more remote communities outside Thompson, The Pas and Flin Flon, so
we can take the pressure off Thompson, The Pas and Flin Flon and deal with
people and the justice issues closer to the home. That is a goal that I have.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 5.(c) Regional Courts: (1) Salaries $3,585,900‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $1,518,100‑‑pass.
5.(d)
Judicial Services: (1) Salaries
$6,610,800‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $391,900‑‑pass.
Resolution
99: RESOLVED that there be granted to
Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $24,041,000 for Justice, Courts, for the fiscal
year ending the 31st day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
Item
6. Protection of Individual and Property Rights (a)
6.(b)
Canada‑Manitoba Legal Aid: (1)
Salaries $4,454,000‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $7,966,800‑‑pass.
6.(c)
Public Trustee.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I received in our office
some concerns about the public accounting of funds in the Public Trustee's
Office. This is specific to a letter
that was received by our office by a Ms. Marlene Johnson.
Her
attorney, Mr. Bjornson, who is with Tupper & Adams, was involved. I wonder if the minister can indicate what improvements
have taken place. I know that there has
been some effort to increase the accountability of the funds that the Public
Trustee handles. I know there were some
criticisms in years gone by, whether they were well‑founded or not. I wonder if the minister can indicate whether
or not there have been improvements in the accounting system in the Public
Trustee's Office.
* (1540)
Mr.
McCrae: All of the information requested of the
Public Trustee by the legal counsel for the person to whom the honourable
member refers has been made available.
Beyond that, if there is something more specific that the honourable
member wants, I will see what I can do.
Mr.
Edwards: Just on that point, have there been changes
in the way, in the manner in which the Public Trustee is handling the public
funds and is accounting for them? Have
there been changes in the procedures recently, in particular in the last year?
Mr.
McCrae: As a result of recommendations made by the Provincial
Auditor, the Public Trustee's Office has set up an investment committee in
order to better invest the funds in the common fund. That was, as I say, recommended by the
Provincial Auditor and followed up on and carried out by the Public Trustee's
Office. That amounts to a significant
improvement.
I
wonder if, while I am on my feet, it is probably not in order, but if the
honourable members agree I could give a brief answer to a question asked
earlier. One of them had to do with some
correspondence‑‑oh, now Mr. Bruce has gone already. I will give it to the honourable member. It was in reference to somebody that the
honourable member referred to, a Mr. Vincent. The most recent correspondence
from me to him I will share with the honourable members, it was here a few
minutes ago.
The
other point has to do with the Maintenance Enforcement telephone answering
business. That was a problem sometime
ago. There was a complaint, I believe, maybe coming from the honourable member
but maybe others as well, that there was an answering machine installed. That issue was addressed and was not found to
be appropriate that there just be an answering machine, but nonetheless there
are a lot of telephone inquiries coming into the office of the Maintenance
Enforcement staff.
So
what we have is not unlike other agencies you might call, you phone, if all the
lines are tied up there is then a message that puts you on hold, I guess, until
someone is available to come to the phone.
We have replaced the answering machine with that kind of a service which
is better, and we think serves the public better.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 6.(c) Public Trustee: (1) Salaries $2,485,200‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $632,300.
Mr.
Edwards: I just have one other question in this
area. What will be the effect on the
Public Trustee's Office, if any, of the move to vulnerable person's
regime? Is there an impact in the Public
Trustee's Office? Is there a move to
enhance the staff complement to deal with the increasing number of concerns
that are being expressed about seniors' abuse and the problems that are
experienced in that area? This has been
raised repeatedly in past years. Is
there a move to have the Public Trustee's Office deal with those increasing
concerns, or is that going to be dealt with more in the area of social services
and in the Department of Family Services?
Mr.
McCrae: Any government activity related to improving services
for vulnerable persons‑‑and I should say senior citizens. I am talking about senior citizens, but
vulnerable persons are already served by the Public Trustee, but when you get
into a specific reference to services for seniors, those kinds of initiatives
are co‑ordinated through the Seniors Directorate and the Public Trustee
is always available to work with the Seniors Directorate and is consulted from
time to time by the Seniors Directorate.
Madam
Chairperson: Item 6.(c)(2) Other Expenditures $632,300‑‑pass.
6.(d)
Land Titles Offices: (1) Salaries
$5,401,200‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $1,054,600‑‑pass.
6.(e)
Personal Property Registry: (1) Salaries
$605,700‑‑pass; (b) Other Expenditures $485,300‑‑pass.
Resolution
100: RESOLVED that there be granted to
Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $24,407,200 for Justice, Protection of
Individual and Property Rights, $24,407,200 for the fiscal year ending the 31st
day of March, 1993‑‑pass.
At
this time I would request that the minister's staff please leave the Chamber,
so that consideration may be giving to 1.(a) the Minister's Salary.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I think we had agreed to
revert back to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry at this point. My suggestion would be‑‑I have
not canvassed this‑‑that we deal with that before we deal with the
Minister's Salary, that we go back to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, which we
agreed to discuss. I am open to other
suggestions.
Madam
Chairperson: At this point, we will determine, indeed, what
the will of the committee is. It is
treated as a separate printout on page 153 of our Estimates manual, so I will
need consensus of the committee.
Mr.
Chomiak: Yes, I believe that was the agreement we had tacitly
agreed to earlier, that we would deal with the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry at
this point, prior to the Minister's Salary.
Now,
whatever arrangements can be made, we are prepared to accommodate it, as long
as we deal with the AJI matters. Well, we
will give leave to deal with whatever aspect that the minister‑‑if
we want to deal with the Minister's Salary now and then‑‑
An
Honourable Member: We will do the AJI and then Minister's Salary.
Mr.
Chomiak: In the Minister's Salary, we will allow staff
in here. Is that the‑‑
* (1550)
Mr.
McCrae: Well, the only thing about it, Madam
Chairperson, I am just worried about my salary here. So, with the honourable member for St. James
(Mr. Edwards) saying, well, you know, we will talk about your salary
afterwards, and I do not say all the right things, I am a little worried about
how I am going to pay the bills. I guess
I can agree this time, because I believe that we will get through this one way
or the other.
I
guess, if all it requires is the leave of this part of the committee to do it
that way, I would yield to advice you get from the Clerk's Office about that. I am willing to agree if it can be done by
only half of the House.
Madam
Chairperson: Order, please. I have been advised by the Clerk that,
indeed, technically we should be dealing completely with the Department of
Justice and then moving to the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives. However, it can be dealt with by leave of the
committee.
Mr.
Enns: Well, Madam Chairperson, if it is of any
further help to the committee and the members opposite, the issue dealing with the
Aboriginal Justice Inquiry encompasses several other ministers as well, notably
the minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey). It certainly involves the ministry of Family
Services, the ministry of Natural Resources‑‑in fact, those
ministers who comprise the subcommittee of cabinet that are charged with the
responsibility of dealing with the inquiry report. I tend to agree with the advice that you have
been given, that we ought to conclude the formal deliberations of the
Department of Justice at this time.
I
think our House leader and the minister would agree to set aside such time that
the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report could be dealt with separately.
Mr.
McCrae: Madam Chairperson, I did not hear everything
my colleague said, and this is a colleague that you should listen to. He has been around for a long time and knows
this place very well, but between the opposition critics I think we might have worked
something out that will meet the technical problems that arise.
If
we deal under Minister's Salary with issues related to Aboriginal Justice
Inquiry‑‑this may well be what my honourable colleague has just
suggested‑‑we could deal with all those things, pass or whatever we
are going to do with my salary, and then in a very shortened kind of way just
pass that other appropriation. I think
that might resolve this difficulty.
Madam
Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee? [Agreed!
Mr.
McCrae: The other thing we have to agree to is if, by
leave, we can agree to allow my staff to be here for that discussion then that
is forthcoming I understand.
Madam
Chairperson: Is there leave granted for the staff to remain
during this debate? [Agreed!
Mr.
Lathlin: Madam Chairperson, it is five minutes to four
and I know we have to wrap up by five o'clock.
Nevertheless, I welcome the opportunity to be able to ask questions and
give comments with respect to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report that was released
last August.
I
am also disappointed in a way, Madam Chairperson, that the time that has been
allotted for Estimates purposes‑‑the Aboriginal Justice
Inquiry. I just want to say that I feel
I am in my rightful place here. I have
been relegated down to approximately 60 minutes for Aboriginal Justice Inquiry questioning
on the Estimates process.
An
Honourable Member: It is what we agreed on.
Mr.
Lathlin: I know.
I am not just looking at you. I
am speaking as an individual, as a member for The Pas.
(Mr.
Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)
However,
I am used to that place. I will take the
back of the bus again, and carry on with the questioning here, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
I
want to start out by saying that it was the aboriginal people and their
leadership who, as a result of the Helen Betty Osborne case in The Pas and
subsequently the J.J. Harper case, initiated the call for the Aboriginal
Justice Inquiry. The aboriginal people
played a very significant role in convincing governments and the institutions
of the need for such an inquiry. I
myself was a chief at the time of the trial of those people who committed the
crime against Helen Betty Osborne was held in The Pas, and it was at that time
that I became very involved with the aboriginal leadership to call for an
inquiry into the case that was held in The Pas.
As
a result of the lobbying and the pressures that were put on governments by the
aboriginal leadership the commissioners were finally appointed. We called on the NDP government in the spring
of 1988 and they agreed to call for an independent judicial inquiry into the
administration of justice as it affected aboriginal people. Commissioners worked for almost three years
to produce, what I call, a very comprehensive report, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Indeed,
from my perspective, I think the commissioners did a tremendous job because
they went beyond what I initially expected and I am sure what the government
initially expected. Besides reviewing
the manner in which the legal system deals with aboriginal people, they also
reviewed and produced wide‑ranging recommendations in the area of treaty
land entitlement, aboriginal self‑government, aboriginal women, and also
they recommended a separate aboriginal justice system and so on.
So,
in August of 1991, the commissioners released the AJI Report. The Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae)
remembers at that time, at the time of the release of the report we tried very hard,
along with the aboriginal leadership of this province and indeed throughout the
country, to ask the government whether or not it endorsed the report as it was
produced.
Of
course, as we all know, the government refused to take a position on the report
until six months later and that position again was very disappointing. I remember the Minister of Justice, in
response to my questioning in the Chamber, telling me that the member for The
Pas will be pleasantly surprised with all the announcements coming
forward. Of course, I was surprised, but
I was not surprised pleasantly, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
The
reason that I was disappointed was because, in the words of the minister, and
those words sort of gave me an indication at that time how his government was
going to treat that report, because the minister in his own words said that the
AJI Report is only the opinion of two men.
That has been indicative of government's attitude towards the report
ever since then.
Nevertheless,
I am going to keep my opening comments very brief because I know time is
running out and I want to ask the minister several questions regarding the AJI
Report. I just wanted to express those
opinions and observations first.
The
first question that I wanted to ask the minister, I guess, is this budget that
has been set aside‑‑I believe it is a million dollars. Perhaps I could ask the minister to give us a
breakdown as to how those funds are going to be expended, how they are going to
be flowed, the criteria, whether aboriginal organizations are going to be
funded as they have been asking? Maybe we will start off with that, Mr. Acting
Chairperson.
* (1600)
Mr.
McCrae: I thank the honourable member for his
comments, Mr. Acting Chairperson. I do
say to him, I can grant him his disappointment in the fact that, as he says,
the time allotted for discussion of the Justice Inquiry Report is relatively
brief, but I do have to say that is not my fault. I am here to answer the questions; the
Estimates process is really driven for the most part by members of the
opposition in the honourable member's caucus and in the Liberal caucus, and it
just plain is not my fault. I am
prepared to answer as many questions as there are asked and to take as long as
it needs to take, but that is not my call either.
These
matters are extremely important. The
honourable member knows as well as, or better than I do, that a
disproportionate number of aboriginal people find themselves involved with the justice
system. That is something, I believe, we
all accept, and we all agree needs desperately to be addressed.
I
know the honourable member sometimes is prone not to give present government
the credit it sometimes deserves in various areas. That is part of the game that we play here,
part of the back and forth that happens in this Chamber. I regret that the honourable member will not
try a little harder to be more constructive in his comments sometimes,
too. I know he is critical of me and
that is fair. When I do not do the job properly,
then I deserve to be criticized, and I accept that, but when the honourable
member, whether directly or indirectly, doubts aloud my intentions, my good
faith in these matters, I get offended and the honourable member gets offended,
as he points out and I understand that.
I really do.
I
know the honourable member quite well now after having taken part with him in
the constitutional discussions. I know a
little bit about how he thinks and I know the reasons he thinks that way, and
those reasons are well documented also in the history of this country. It is not a pleasant part of our history, and
it is not something that any of us can be proud of, no matter which side of the
House or no matter which culture you happen to belong to. Those things are clear in the Aboriginal Justice
Inquiry Report and they are assertions of fact of our history that I accept and
want desperately to do something about.
So
where do we go from here? The honourable
member wants to see change. He wants to
see improvement. I want to see change, and
I want to see improvement. So what
limits us? What are the things that hold
us back from achieving very, very quickly the kinds of things we both want to
achieve? We are going to disagree along
the way about how we get there, and that is fair, there is nothing wrong with
that. An improved social condition for
human beings to live in in this country is what he is talking about and it is
what I am talking about. We are going to
argue till the cows come home about how we should get there. Meanwhile we should be doing something while
we are arguing, and I accept that.
So
we are limited by some philosophical differences, party to party, culture to
culture. We are limited but not
necessarily stopped, and where we are limited we should learn to cut the partisanship,
cut through barriers between our cultures and sometimes just plain cut the crap
when it comes to our relationships one with the other. So, on January 28, this government came
forward and announced its response to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, to the
condemnation of the honourable member opposite and the condemnation of other
aboriginal leaders in this province, but not all people in this province and
not all aboriginal people in this province.
The
honourable member profoundly disagrees with the approach taken by the
government. Is that fatal? Does that have to end the process? I say no.
The Grand Chief of the Manitoba Assembly of Chiefs has outlined profound
differences in his approach as opposed to the government's approach. He is joined in some respects by the three
other major aboriginal groups with whom we have been talking. In various areas there might be profound disagreement
all the way over to agreement, maybe, in some areas.
So
do we let the disagreements stand in the way of progress? In other words, do we
make all the wheels stop because this government, part of its approach differs
from the approach that would be favoured by Grand Chief Fontaine, for
example? Well, so far that appears to be
what has happened. That is profoundly unfortunate
for ordinary, average aboriginal Manitobans.
Those people are not being served by this approach.
We
have extended, as a government, a hand of welcome to the four aboriginal
groups, those being the Assembly of Chiefs, the Metis Federation, the
Indigenous Women's Collective and the Winnipeg‑‑I never remember
the name‑‑the Aboriginal Council, I believe it is called, here in
We
have extended a hand that said, join us.
Give us your advice, your criticisms are welcome. We know you disagree about the issue of
separate systems. But do we really
disagree? I do not know, because we have
never taken the time to sit down and talk about just what is the nature of our
disagreement. You accept what we want or
we are not going to sit at the table of the working groups with you. That is what I have heard so far, and the
government's response is, here is the direction we are prepared to go in, join
us at the table.
So
you can see the different approaches, but there is so much to be done. Why do not we get started? We are never going to agree about everything,
but we will, indeed, get started. Hopefully it will be with the advice, the
participation of spokespersons for aboriginal communities. That is what we want. Money is here in the
budget. That is the other
limitation. It would be nice if it was
more, but we do not know how much we are going to need this fiscal year,
because nobody has joined us at the table to tell us what the priorities in
those areas of recommendations the government is prepared to move on, which
ones we ought to move on first, which makes the best sense, which community is
the right one to start in since we cannot do it all overnight, and everybody
recognizes that.
So
where is the best place to start? We
want that kind of advice. We have asked
for that kind of advice. It is being withheld
from us. Because various individuals,
including the honourable member for the Pas (Mr. Lathlin), disagree fundamentally
with our approach.
We
accept separate systems, a sort of sovereignty of justice systems or we go
nowhere. Sorry, Mr. Acting Chairperson,
that is not acceptable to this government.
Nobody is going to be served if we never talk.
We
have been not talking for 125 years, since Confederation and perhaps before
that. What good has that done the
aboriginal people of this country? I ask
the honourable member for The Pas to think about that because I desperately
want to join hands with him‑‑desperately‑‑and many of
his colleagues in the aboriginal community.
I
am not promising, I cannot promise, the kind of change that we all would like
to see tomorrow. I cannot promise that
it will happen tomorrow because I am limited, as any government in this country
is limited, by the availability of funds.
Let us get that right out front, and be honest and clear about it. Yet I desperately want to see change in our
justice system.
There
are a lot of problems for aboriginal people and they go far beyond the justice
system. If we did not have those
problems we might not have so many problems in the justice system. Those problems are in the social system and
the economic system and the political system, but the fruit, if you want to
call it that, of all of those problems is found in the justice system, in disproportionate
numbers in our system.
I
say the present stalemate, standoff, whatever you call it, waiting for the
other side to blink, all of that, what good does that do anybody in this province? What good?
Does the honourable member for The Pas think that if he waits long
enough, perhaps for a Liberal government in
* (1610)
Think
again, Mr. Acting Chairperson. I do not
know what you were thinking, Mr. Acting Chairperson, but anybody who was thinking
that ought to think again. Because in
spite of the suggestions made by the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards),
about some day there will be another kind of government, we will see something
different; do not hold your breath, I say to the honourable member for St.
James. Certainly do not hold your breath
for the election of a Liberal government.
But do not hold your breath for even a Liberal government to make the
kind of changes being suggested by the honourable member for The Pas.
Do
not wait for an NDP government. How long
was the NDP government in office in this province?‑‑since 1969 or
so when the first New Democrats were elected here in the
So
let us make a start and let us work along together, even though we have
differences. We always have had
differences and we will never stop having differences. One person with the other, one government
with other, one culture with the other; there will always be differences.
So
is it a bottom line for the beginning of discussions that all our differences
be resolved by our accepting what the honourable member for The Pas says, and
then and only then, we can get on with progress? Surely that does not stand the test of reason,
Mr. Acting Chairperson.
So
I appeal to the honourable member, as I have done in the past, use the powers
that you have as a member of this Assembly, as a former Chief, leader; use the
powers that you have in an effort to bring the parties together. I have asked the honourable member before to
do that, but he keeps reading petitions each day or every few days in the House
to bring forward a separate or parallel justice system, a separate or a parallel
justice system as he sees it, as he defines it.
The
world does not revolve around the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin),
it revolves around all the people in the world.
In Manitoba, it revolves around all the people in Manitoba, many of whom
are aboriginal persons and many of whom deserve a better deal than they are
getting from me and a better deal than they are getting from the member for The
Pas.
I
want to give them that better deal, and I want them to start working on a
better deal. If the honourable member
does not believe that, then we are not going to go anywhere with the honourable
member, but we are going to go somewhere.
Mr.
Lathlin: I did ask a question there somewhere, and I
do not believe the minister answered the question that I asked, but I will come
back to that.
I
just want to say to the minister that he is wondering why the aboriginal
leadership has been having difficulty working with the minister and his
department. The answer is very simple. Maybe
if I give the minister some sort of an illustration to point out why the
frustration is out there in the aboriginal community.
I
used this example when I was chief in trying to describe what it is that
aboriginal people want, and I used the example of a vehicle. The minister is in the driver's seat, and I
am a passenger in a vehicle. It is up to
the minister where this vehicle is going to go.
It is up to the minister how fast this vehicle is going to go or how
slow it is going to go, where it is going to go, whether it is going to go
around in circles or is going to make a left turn or go forward or whatever, or
stay still.
Do
you know why? Because the minister is at
the controls, and I am just a passenger.
Okay? If I ask the minister, if
we want to make a left turn five miles down the road, and if he decides to go
right through, well, I do not have any choice, I have to go along with him, and
I have to accept wherever he is going to take me, whether it is good for me or
not. I have to accept what the end
result is going to bring.
I
believe that is why the aboriginal leadership are having a lot of difficulty in
working with the minister because so far the minister has been telling
aboriginal people, you do it my way or no way at all. I can guarantee you that is what he tried to
do in the Manitoba Constitutional Task Force.
Everybody talks highly about the harmony that went on in the task force.
Well,
we had a lot of differences, and I must say that most of the difficulties that
we had came from the minister himself. He used to speak highly of trying to
work with aboriginal people, about how he recognized the problems that they
were having. He even went so far as to
say, we have no problem here recognizing the rights of the aboriginal people to
inherent right to self‑government, and yet, when the Aboriginal Justice
Inquiry Report came out, he dug his heels in, he would not take any action. That is why the aboriginal leadership are
having a lot of difficulty in working with the minister.
If
they saw the minister for one instance co‑operating, then the aboriginal
leadership would come to work with the minister, but so far the minister wants
to call all the shots. We saw that on
Day One when the AJI Report first came out.
He said, this is the work of only two men; we should not get too
excited. That is the way the minister
has been operating ever since the end of August last summer.
He
is wondering why the aboriginal leadership is having difficulty working with
him? Perhaps the minister should look at
himself for once and see how he operates and see how he affects people, because
it was not‑‑[interjection!‑‑yes, the minister says, I
offend him sometimes, what I say.
I
can tell the minister too, Mr. Acting Chairperson, that he really tried my
patience here one afternoon when he started accusing me of whatever activity
that I might have been involved in, in regards to aboriginal women, child abuse
and so on, when I was a chief. He really
tried my patience that afternoon. Yes, he
offended me.
I
did not react in a way that the minister carried on that afternoon here. I decided to be better than him, Mr. Acting Chairperson. That is why, when he works with the
aboriginal leadership, that is the way he carries on, and no wonder the aboriginal
leadership does not want to work with him.
I
want, again, to ask him: Could he
provide us with a breakdown of how his budget that has been‑‑I
believe it is a million dollars now, that was set aside for the AJI. What is it going to be used for? The criteria, who is going to be funded, and
so on?
Mr.
McCrae: Well, if the honourable member, Mr. Acting Chairperson,
is prepared to put on the public record of this Chamber that his view is that
during our work on the task force, if there were difficulties, they came from
the minister himself, you would think that the honourable member for The Pas
(Mr. Lathlin) would have the courage to be a little more specific than that.
He
did not show that courage, so maybe he will show a little courage in his next
question and be a little more precise about what it is that bothered him about
my performance on the task force. My
view of the task force was that we came to that task force with our own
perspectives. I see my signature on the
task force documents. I see the
honourable member's signature on that document.
Then he talks about these difficulties.
Is
the document not an honourable document?
The honourable member's signature is there. So is mine.
Maybe he should shed a little bit of light instead of making vague and
mischievous comments, without backing it up with any hard facts.
Then
he talks about my making accusations against him in this Chamber respecting
child abuse and women, to use his words.
I would like him to be specific about that, because I think this is a
very serious matter that the honourable member is raising and borders on a
question of privilege. I do not propose
to raise a question of privilege at this moment, because this, as I understand
the rules, is not the time to do it.
* (1620)
If
the honourable member has something to say, rather than horsing around and
pussy‑footing around, let him come right out and say it, if he has a
problem. The honourable member should be
clear. If he has a problem with
difficulties on the task force, then why did he sign the task force report?
If
he has difficulties about accusations, true or otherwise‑‑otherwise
I suggest‑‑if he has difficulty with accusations made by myself,
then let him stand in his place and raise a question of privilege. He is a member of this House. He is an equal to every other member in this
House.
You
see, I have trouble with innuendo, the kind indulged in by the honourable
member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). If
there is a poisoned atmosphere here, the honourable member need only read his
own words spoken today. He sits firmly
in his seat and talks about who created them.
Well, if there is a problem, tell me what it is and we can deal with
it. We are never going to solve the
problems the honourable member wants to solve if you sit around making half‑baked
innuendo at other members of this House.
That is not the way to conduct oneself in this place. The honourable
member knows better and ought not to act in the way he is today, but if he
would like to correct the record or put something on the record to which I can
respond, I welcome him to do that.
Now
he wants a breakdown of the budget. How
does the honourable member propose for me to break down a budget in the Estimates
process or in the budget process when he will not even suggest to his own
former colleagues, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, that they get together with
the government and talk about priorities for the implementation of Aboriginal
Justice Initiatives?
He
will not even talk about how money should be spent. Instead, he wants to talk
about things that bother him all the time.
Well, the only way things are going to stop bothering the honourable
member is if he talks about those things.
We can have an honest dialogue, one with the other, and sort these
things out. I am here. I was there on the task force. I worked with the honourable member. I thought both of us were working very hard,
and I also thought both of us were trying very hard to resolve differences that
we might have approached that process with.
I see a document with both of our signatures on it and I wonder, is he
repudiating that document? If he is, it
would be interesting to know that, too, because if he is repudiating the document,
he was signing that document on behalf of his colleagues in the N.D. Party
across the way.
He
says that I offend him. I really have to
say today when I hear the kind of smeary sort of innuendo that the honourable member
is raising in this House this afternoon, I feel offended. I feel entitled to
defend myself from the kinds of accusations I hear from this honourable
gentleman opposite, but he will not particularize anything except to say that I
accused him of something to do with child abuse and women. Well, it sounds pretty serious to me. Tell me, what did I accuse the honourable member
of? Surely, he owes this House an
explanation for his accusation against me.
So I await with interest the honourable member's response to the
references to the task force and to the references to comments in this House.
I
have answered his question about breakdown on the budget. I would like to break
down the budget. It would be nice to
have aboriginal help doing so.
Mr.
Lathlin: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is the way the minister
operates, and I am afraid I guess that is how we have to let the process carry
through.
Perhaps
I can ask the minister then: When was
the last time the minister met with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs to try to get
these working groups that he has been talking about get going on the work that
he says he is trying to do? Also, how
many groups are there? Who is going to
be sitting in the working groups from the government side?
Mr.
McCrae: We have made repeated requests, both verbally
and in writing. I can make available the
catalogue of written requests of the chiefs and the others to join us at the
table. I do not have my dates. I can certainly fill them in for the
honourable member.
At
the most recent formal meeting we had with Phil Fontaine and the Premier (Mr.
Filmon) and some of the members of our Native Affairs Committee of Cabinet, it
was all agreed, yes, we are going to allow aboriginal people‑‑or
aboriginal people are going to take their place on the working groups as co‑chairs. So there would not be just one chair on the
government side, but there would be two chairs of each committee or
subcommittee, and one of those would be aboriginal people.
Then
there was an issue discussed that money would be required to secure the
participation of aboriginal leadership on these committees, and we are in the
process of responding to that request or demand or whatever it was.
(Madam
Chairperson in the Chair)
Then
also, after the meeting was over, and unbeknownst to myself, it was announced
that another condition for the participation of aboriginal representatives was
that the issue of separate systems was back on the table. That was not so, but that was said
nonetheless.
So
you see what I am talking about, Madam Chairperson. When we do not really talk to each other, we
really do have a problem do we not? So
what I am saying is, why can we not just say what it is that we want to
say. I have said, on behalf of the government,
and so have my colleagues, that we want aboriginal participation, and the
response is, we want $250,000 to talk to you.
Well, I am sorry, that is not on.
That is not the way it is going to work.
If
I had $250,000, would I not rather put that money into a program for
people? What do we need $250,000‑‑we
have the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report, which was a $3‑million project,
and that does not count the remuneration of the judges. We have a three‑year
project that took into account massive levels of consultation with people. So what is the $250,000 to study the report
for another year for? That was the
request I got from the grand chief, another year of study and $250,000, or maybe
it was a little more. Sorry. Are we going to do something for people or
are we going to spend money studying?
We
have spent $3 million and three years studying.
We have the basis of a lot of work that we can do on behalf of
aboriginal people to improve conditions in the justice system for aboriginal people
so that they can take partnership and in some cases ownership of the justice
system. But why do we need to stall for another
year after three years? Why do we need
to spend another $250,000, just so we can talk for another year and study and research
some more?
The
people of this province think that this matter has been studied to death
already. So what does it take to get the
chiefs to join us at the table and talk about the substance, not about whether
we are going to have a separate system‑‑or is what the honourable
member is proposing a separate system, or is it really what I am proposing that
is a separate system? How long are we going
to debate this, and how many more hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars
of taxpayers' money are we going to spend playing politics, indulging in
rhetoric? When are we going to get down
to business? I ask this of the
honourable member for The Pas. When are
we going to get down to business and do something for the people we all
represent and improve conditions that are bad and need to be much better?
So
I would ask, repeatedly, the honourable member, to use his good office and to
use his influence to try to persuade the aboriginal leadership to get on to
this project and join with us. Yes, we
cannot devise quickly or fund quickly, a separate aboriginal justice system,
but we can fund and devise the beginnings of systems of justice that will serve
aboriginal people far better in a way that respects their culture. These things can all happen in steps, same as
self‑government, generally, can happen.
We want it to happen in steps.
* (1630)
I
sometimes do not think the honourable member knows what he is talking
about. He does not like me. He has made that clear today. That is all right. I like him, but he does not like me. Fair
enough. We worked for a long time
together on the task force. He never
told me that before, but he has made it pretty clear today the way he
feels. It is unfortunate, because there is
a lot of work to do. The honourable
member wants to play games, let him play, but let him play with somebody else,
because I am interested in doing something while I have this job.
I
am interested in proving the justice system.
I have proved and my department in working with me has proved that we
know how to do it. We know how to make
changes that are better and an improvement in the system. Why will you not give us a chance to make
changes that will make a real difference for the people of that the honourable
member for The Pas and the chiefs of this province represent? Why do you not give us a chance instead of all
of the kinds of questions and comments I am getting today from the honourable
member?
I
am telling you, Madam Chairperson, I am really very disappointed in the
approach the honourable member takes, because his approach just means the
status quo. If I were to play along with
this for much longer, it would mean the status quo until somebody else comes
along who is ready to embrace everything the honourable member suggests, but
nobody is ready to do that. His colleagues
in his own party are not ready to embrace the stuff that he is putting
forward. What does he think is suppose
to happen next?
The
honourable member thinks that we are suppose to succumb, if you like, and say,
yes, we will accept everything that the honourable member for The Pas says and
that is what we will devise. Money is,
obviously, no object, and we can make it all happen next week and everybody
will be happy. Well, welcome to the real
world. This is
What
is it that the honourable is trying to achieve?
Is he trying to achieve positive change for the aboriginal people of
Mr.
Lathlin: Madam Chairperson, perhaps I can ask the
minister again‑‑I believe it was $1 million‑‑when it
was set aside, what was that money going to be used for? I know the aboriginal leadership have asked
the minister for financial assistance for the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs,
their justice committee, to operate and so on.
I think why they were asking for that money for the committee, for the
chiefs, was, because as the minister knows‑‑he has got his
department, I mean the infrastructure is there, the budget is there, so he does
not need a whole lot of extra resources to carry out the work that needs to be
done with the aboriginal leadership. I
believe what the aboriginal leadership were asking for was some assistance in
offsetting some of their expenses.
Twenty‑five Indian bands are in remote areas. It costs a lot of money for people to travel
from northern
I
am still interested in finding out from the minister. When he set the money aside, what was he
going to use it for primarily? Did he
not think that he would have to fund some of the work, the expense that comes
with the work in working with government?
Because I know myself, as a chief for six years of my band, it costs
money to come to
Mr.
McCrae: Madam Chairperson, Chief Fontaine's office is
just down the street, so he is not that far away. Yvon Dumont has met with me on numerous
occasions and never asked for money. He
and his federation, I believe, are funded in a core kind of a sense by the
government of
So,
if it comes to travel expenses, my mind is wide open if there is someone who
needs to be at a meeting and absolutely cannot get there without assistance
from the government. That is an open
question, that is not a closed question.
That is not what the $250,000 was all about. Let us get talking about the same thing.
You
want to know what the $1 million is for, the money set aside in the
budget. The honourable member wants some
particularities. Well, that is fair,
except he has not done his part yet in persuading his aboriginal colleagues to
assist us in arriving at some solutions.
But I will tell you, we have learned from Phil Fontaine, and we have
learned from others.
St.
Theresa Point Indian government project is acceptable to the chiefs; Phil
Fontaine told me that himself. That
program will be funded out of that appropriation. That is the kind of thing that will
work. That program, I know the
honourable member knows about it, is a highly successful program to provide culturally
appropriate local services to young aboriginal offenders in the aboriginal
community of St. Theresa Point. That is
the kind of project we want to fund, and we want to see happen. We want to see it expand, and I would like to
see, in the future, other aboriginal communities taking up a similar model.
For
argument's sake, I will say it is a separate system. It is run by aboriginal people in the
community for the people in the community.
So what are we really arguing about here? The St. Theresa Point Indian Youth Court is a
separate justice system for those young offenders who come before it.
Their
success rate is quite phenomenal really.
They have been operating for a number of years. The Law Foundation of Manitoba has been
funding them. The Law Foundation is
broke, as honourable members well know, or nearly broke, and they were unable
to fund them anymore. The government of
We
want desperately to get the federal government involved. We are working with
them and we are hopeful that they are going to get involved. We are first in, of course, in terms of announcing
our support, but that is nothing new. We
are closer to
The
honourable member, does he really want to stand in the way of that kind of
stuff? Well, I am not going to let him anyway. So there you have it. I am very upset. I am very upset with what is happening at the
Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council probation services, funded 50‑50 by this
government and the federal government up till now.
The
federal government has decided it wants to withdraw its participation. I mean, that is a heck of a time to be doing
it. Here we are going to
* (1640)
The
honourable member may not know it, but I met with representatives of the DOTC
about the future of their probation service, another tremendously successful
probation service. The Assistant Deputy
Minister responsible for Corrections is here and can correct me if I am wrong,
but they have a better success rate than the
I
have looked at some numbers and the rate of repeat that I saw, repeat offence
or repeat exposure to the service, is higher in the
As
a matter of fact, on Tuesday morning of this week I telephoned Joe Clark, a
gentleman with whom I have been doing some work lately, asking him to talk to
his colleague Doug Lewis about this and telling him, this is not the right
thing to be doing. This is a good
program. It has been funded for a number
of years by both governments, 50‑50.
Our funding, unfortunately, is contingent on the federal funding,
because if the federal funding is not there, there is really not much of a
program left to fund. So I want to see
that program keep going. It is serving
many people, serving many reserve communities.
That is good. It is better
service, according to the people being served, because they are being served by
their own agency. That is self‑government.
Well,
the honourable member is going to go to The Pas, he is going to go wherever he
can and say, McCrae, he is not in favour of self‑government because he
does not support separate systems. Well, what do you call that system up at
Why
does the honourable member not get on board?
This is more than just being a New Democrat. It is your job to be opposed to things that
you should be opposed to, but why do you want to be opposed to progress in the
area of aboriginal justice? That is what
you are doing. That is the way it is being
interpreted. Well, I mean the honourable
member can sit there and grin and make faces sometimes from his seat in
Question Period and make the odd offensive comment from his seat in reference
to his interpretation of something I might have said. The honourable member is
going to learn that it does not cut that much ice, that kind of way of doing
business.
We
have important people in this province to serve, and we have very, very serious
problems. Here we are, some people anyway,
prepared to say we will take nothing for our people if we cannot have it the
way I say it. The fundamental problem
with that approach is it does not respect very much the democratic process in
the rest of this country. We would like
to see the honourable member show a more co‑operative attitude, and, for goodness
sake, do not come out of a long process of intense discussions and negotiations
on a task force, sign the document and then say, oh well, this fellow he gave
us a lot of difficulty. I mean, really,
as I said earlier, give me a break.
Mr.
Lathlin: Madam Chairperson, I still cannot understand
why the minister refuses to‑‑I have been to other Estimates where ministers
are asked questions and they give answers and so forth. I just cannot imagine the minister sitting
there saying, we will set aside a million dollars, for what I do not know, but just
in case, if something comes up, I will set aside a million dollars. Surely he must know what he was going to use
that money for, and again I ask him, what were his plans?
Also,
he speaks a lot about the
If
that is the way the minister wants to operate in terms of the justice system or
the legal system, I guess now we are going to have to have every individual
band come into Winnipeg, cap in hand, beg this government, lobby and so on,
because it seems to me that that is the only way this government responds to
requests that come in from those people.
I know Swampy Cree Tribal Council has proposals in here, the Minister of
Justice's department, and we do not know where that is right now, but I do know
it is not moving. So, again, I ask the
minister what was he going to use the money for, the $1 million he had set
aside?
Mr.
McCrae: You will have to pardon me, Madam
Chairperson, but I do not recall taking the credit for the
An
Honourable Member: You should.
Mr.
McCrae: My honourable colleague the Minister of
Housing (Mr. Ernst) says that I should.
Well, maybe I can take credit for helping the thing carry on, but I do
not recall taking credit for the St. Theresa Point Indian court system, because
that would be the wrong thing to do. You
know who deserves the credit for that?
The people of
It
makes you wonder why The Pas band never got into such a good idea. Now why?
Maybe the honourable member can tell us that. Those people in
* (1650)
What
did the honourable member do for The Pas?
Did he look then, in those days, at the St. Theresa Point system? He was chief at that time, I believe. What system did he put in place in The Pas
without any help from anybody else? Time
came,
The
honourable member wants to know what we are going to spend the money on. Look in this document. How many times have you read it? I have read it twice. Look in this document. It is called An Aboriginal Justice Inquiry
Report, prepared by Associate Chief Justice A.C. Hamilton and Associate Chief
Judge C.M. Sinclair. This thing is chock‑full
of ideas, beginnings of ideas and other kinds of ideas that will help us
through many, many initiatives. Some
will be exactly like the judges suggested; some are not going to be accepted;
some will borrow from ideas of the judges.
That is reasonable, and if you say it is not I am going to take my
marbles and go home, then we will just have to do it without you. But I hope we do not have to do it like that.
Even
if we do it without you, the honourable member has already told us, that
through his colleague the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), every single
recommendation is okay with him. So,
therefore, if the chiefs will not join us, we will have to go it alone. Too bad if we have to do it that way.
This
sort of noncommunication that swirls around all of these words that are being
spoken is quite disturbing in a political sense, but it is a tragedy if you
happen to be an aboriginal person living in a reserve community or elsewhere,
and your life is deeply and tragically affected by a social, political and economical
system which leaves you out or behind.
The justice system that comes along just makes the whole thing worse for
you.
What
good does the honourable member's position do?
The position being taken by the honourable member, what good does it do
for a young aboriginal family facing trouble with the law? The position the
honourable member is taking, what good does it do for a young aboriginal single
mom and her children? What good does the
honourable member's position do them?
What progress are we making with the position being taken by the
honourable member?
I
keep trying, Madam Chairperson, but I am afraid I am not getting through.
Mr.
Edwards: We have had a very illustrative example in
the last close to an hour of exactly why implementation of this report should
not be left to the members of this Chamber alone.
Ultimately,
the decisions have to come here for ratification, the expenditure funds and the
enactment of legislation, but we have had a pretty good example of why the
strategy for action embodied in the report made eminent sense, and I welcomed
and congratulated the commissioners on making that a part of their report.
They
did not just tell us what to do, they advised on how to do it, and they
entitled it, A Strategy for Action, and on page 755 of their report they
started that with the recommendation for an aboriginal justice commission.
The
recommendation was that it be established by legislation and by appropriate
processes with a board of directors made up of equal numbers of aboriginal and
government representatives and an independent chairperson, and that it should
be given the necessary staff and resources.
They
also said the position of aboriginal justice commissioner should be established
as the CEO of the commission, and the tasks, and this is the important part,
would include monitoring and assisting government implementation of the recommendations
of this inquiry.
It
was an action plan, and this was the lead recommendation under the Strategy for
Action.
The
commissioners recognized that it would be controversial. They recognized that
there would be difficulties and that there was a communication problem. They also recognized that political parties
and political biases would further impede putting into place their
recommendations, and so they handed us an opportunity to do something about
that.
The
minister chose not to accept that and embarked on another path of
implementation. I want to ask him in the
brief time we have left, what was wrong, in his view, with the strategy for action
and, in particular, that recommendation of the commissioners?
Mr.
McCrae: Madam Chairperson, it is not so much a
question of right or wrong, and I know the honourable member probably did not mean
to frame the question in that kind of a way, although it is his question. I do not see anything so wrong with that
proposal as I see right or better or more workable and more practical than the
approach that we are taking.
I
can see in that recommendation the likelihood of an extremely expensive
bureaucracy that would have to go along with such a commission. Remember we got to that point, and then we spent
maybe another million dollars and still not one iota of change has happened for
the aboriginal person out there.
It
has been a while since I read that, all of the accompanying material that goes
with that particular recommendation, but there is a sense also, and the
honourable member in raising the question is not far off from some other proposals
put forward by members of his party, to take away from government or remove
from government, should I say, the responsibility and the right to make
decisions.
We
honestly felt and still do‑‑I continue to hold out hope here‑‑that
we can work together. We found that in
other areas of common interest, aboriginal people in this government have been able
to work together. So we felt and
continue to feel that approach can work again in the future.
The
approach that we are proposing, the working group proposal, does, I believe,
lend itself to a practical working solution to many of the problems there are
and the practical implementation of many of the recommendations that we are accepting.
Perhaps
it is because the aboriginal leadership think we should have accepted this
recommendation that we still do not see them at the table. If that is the case, I suggest that is not our
fault. They have been invited to the
table. We want them at the table.
Mr.
Edwards: Madam Chairperson, there is no particular
need for us to go through each of the recommendations, because we could do that. I think we could agree and disagree on much
of them. The main point today, I think,
is to find a way to get together with the aboriginal community and work out a
process of implementation.
It
is wrong to think that we should be able to implement it without cost. That is wrong to think that. We spent $3 million, that is true. It is a lot of money. It would be a squandering of that money if we
were not to be prepared to spend what it costs to implement it. That would truly be a waste.
Now
the minister says, workable and practical.
The minister says he wants a workable and practical implementation
process and he says he has found a better way through the working groups, whatever
he has set up. Well, workable is easy,
because it is not working. It is not
working. His plan is not working. That is clear. [interjection!
Well,
the people at
His
response has been pathetic. After a
month of having the report, he had a press conference to say, I have nothing to
say. That is what he said a month after he had had the report.
Today,
he says his implementation process is practical and workable. Well, it certainly is not practical because
it is not working. It just is not
working. What is wrong with what they recommended?
What
is really wrong is he thinks it might cost a few dollars. That is really what is wrong; that is what he
said. He said it would be too expensive
to put into place a commission to implement.
Well,
let me suggest to him that he spent $3 million coming up with recommendations,
and now he is not willing to spend a dime to put it into place. That is a wasting of the $3 million, if he
does not act on it. That is really where
he is going.
He
is using the fact that his system is not working to do nothing. There is an opportunity here to go to them
and to say to the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and the aboriginal community,
you say you accept all the recommendations; I am following one; I am putting
into place the aboriginal commission.
Put
them to the test. Ask them for their
nominations to that commission. What is
wrong with that recommendation? He has
not told us yet, except that he does not want to spend a dime to put it into
place, Madam Chairperson.
Madam
Chairperson, that is the poorest financial decision he could make, because it
not only squanders the social and the human potential of putting these
recommendations into place, but he is going to squander the three years and $3
million worth of work that it took to come up with them. That is what he is going to do if he does not
act quickly to put into place a truly workable implementation procedure.
Thank
you.
Madam
Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m. and time for private
members' hour, committee rise.
Call
in the Speaker.
* (1700)
\
IN SESSION
Mr.
Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for Private
Members' Business.
Committee Report
Mrs.
Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Committees): The Committee of Supply
has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same, and asks leave
to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable
member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be
received.
Motion
presented.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS‑PUBLIC
BILLS
Bill
16‑The Health Care Directives Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 16 (The Health Care Directives Act; Loi
sur les directives en matiere de soins de sante), standing in the name of the
honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 18‑The Franchises Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), Bill 18 (The Franchises Act; Loi sur les concessions),
standing in the name of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.
McAlpine).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), Bill 25 (The University of Manitoba Amendment
Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'Universite du Manitoba), standing in the name
of the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 27‑The Business Practices
Amendment Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 27 (The Business Practices Amendment
Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur les pratiques commerciales), standing in the name
of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 31‑The Municipal Amendment Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), Bill 31 (The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les municipalites), standing in the name of the honourable
member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 32‑The Immigration Consultants
Registry Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), Bill 32 (The Immigration Consultants Registry
Act; Loi sur l'inscription des conseillers en immigration), standing in the
name of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 36‑The Health Care Records Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis), Bill 36 (The Health Care
Records Act; Loi sur les dossiers medicaux), standing in the name of the honourable
member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 50‑The Beverage Container Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), Bill 50 (The Beverage Container
Act; Loi sur les contenants de boisson), standing in the name of the honourable
member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Bill 51‑The Health Services Insurance
Amendment Act
Mr.
Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable
member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 51 (The Health Services Insurance Amendment
Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'assurance‑maladie), standing in the name
of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst).
An
Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr.
Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed!
Mr.
Paul Edwards (St. James): It is a pleasure to rise to speak on this
bill put forward by the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). I do not intend to give lengthy comments, but
I did want to stand in support of this proposal to put into law the five
essential principles of our universal health care system. I think it is a particularly important time
for this House to address this issue and to pass this legislation with all due haste.
Mr.
Speaker, the reason for that is that I believe that the discussions which are
occurring throughout the country in these past weeks and are going to continue
to occur on our constitutional future have a lot to do with universal health
care in this country. I think it is a
mistake to restrict the debate to the more notable issues which tend to get the
greater amount of press coverage.
The
distinct society in Quebec, the Charter issues, those are vital issues, but
recall, if you will, Mr. Speaker, the debate which circled around the issue of
standards in the social services throughout this country. That was‑‑and I had the privilege
of being on the task force on a number of their hearings‑‑an
extremely important issue to Manitobans.
They came forward time and time again to talk about the need for a
strong central government, the need for strong national standards in health
care and the need for, above all else, our ability to maintain a universal,
accessible health care system as fundamental to their notion of what it was to
be Canadian.
It
was not just a sense of fairness that led them to that conclusion. It reflected, I think, a deeper sense of
pride in the principles of universal health care as notably Canadian and something
that they wanted to leave as a legacy to their grandchildren and say that we
protected this, this was our first priority.
This is not the
It
is an interesting statistic to note that the
Frankly,
I believe that wherever we go in health care in
We
need to send a message today before they meet again in these rounds of
constitutional debates. We need to send
a message today, and I ask all members to consider the importance of addressing
this issue today in this Chamber and sending a message to the leaders of this
country, that we believe fervently in the enshrinement of the five essential
principles of universal health care in this country, and that is not to be
forgotten in any of these debates. All
of the other issues are important, but this, too, ranks as an issue, first and
foremost, for our leaders to have on their minds as they talk about EPF
funding, they talk about the role of the federal government and the
relationship between federal and provincial governments. This is a key issue and we should pass this
legislation today.
(Mrs.
Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)
Ms.
Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
* (1710)
There
is no question that any entrenchment of the five founding original fundamental
principles of medicare in any aspect of provincial or federal law would serve
us well. There is no question that in
this period in our history, attempts to entrench principles and to demonstrate
political and government obligation to upholding those principles is more
important than ever.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, this idea of entrenching the fundamental principles of medicare
in provincial law interestingly enough was outlined in the British Columbia
Royal Commission on health care and cost released not too long ago. That report
clearly stated that it would do no harm and it would certainly serve
considerable purpose to entrench the principles, comprehensiveness,
universality, portability, accessibility and public administration, in
provincial legislation.
I
quote from the B.C. Royal Commission: To
date no Canadian province has confirmed the five principles of medicare by enacting
them in legislation. Every province has
taken steps to discourage or prevent extra billing and has removed hospital
user fees, but none has gone further. We
believe that it is important that the B.C. government take the first step and
make these principles an integral part of B.C. law.
It
would certainly, Madam Deputy Speaker, be acceptable, be fitting for all of us
here in this Chamber who have worked so long and hard to preserve the fundamental
principles of medicare to move quickly and to ensure that happened promptly in
this province of Manitoba and served as a reference point for other provincial
jurisdictions right across this country.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to see that, in fact, the Liberal caucus has
brought forward this legislation, because there have been doubts about Liberal
position on medicare and the principles underlying that fine nationally
treasured program. I hope that the
introduction of this bill is an indication to all of us that the Liberal Party
here in Manitoba has done some rethinking on this matter and has re‑evaluated
its previous positions and determined that it is in the best interest of all Manitobans
to be governed by the five principles of medicare.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, our concerns with respect to the Liberal Party in Manitoba, of
course, come out of previous election commitment to suggest that perhaps some
form of a charge in hospitals might not be all that bad. The suggestions were made in the 1988
election. We raised our questions and
concerns at that time. Manitobans spoke
their mind at that time, and I believe that, perhaps, as a result of that
exposition of the issue in the media and in the public, the Liberals, perhaps,
in
Madam
Deputy Speaker, that is one concern with respect to the Liberal Party. Even more fundamentally‑‑[interjection!
The member for
I
did not mention, but I will, the fact that the present Liberal critic for
Health, along with a former member of the Liberal caucus, held after 1988, a
press conference clearly coming down on the side of a means test for our home
care program.
We
expressed absolute outrage and concern at that suggestion, and we had hoped
that, in fact, this bill before us today indicated a change of heart. I am getting a little worried by virtue of
the calls and cries and heckling from the Liberal member for
Madam
Deputy Speaker, I am more concerned though, about the role of Liberal
governments on the national scene today.
I am more concerned about the apparent movement towards the introduction
of user fees, towards methods of deterrency, towards means test, towards
privatization. Those concerns have been fueled
in particular by Liberal Premier Frank McKenna, who clearly stated quite
recently that the concept of user fees should not be ruled out, that it may
have to be implemented, that it might be fundamental to addressing the economic
plight of provincial governments and provinces.
So
we have every reason to be concerned and are hopeful that this bill today,
presented by the Liberals of Manitoba, reflects a change of heart, or at least
that it will have some impact on Liberal members in opposition or in government
right across this country.
Because,
in fact, we have a much bigger battle to fight.
We have a much more worrisome issue at hand than the specific entrenchment
of the principles of medicare into provincial law. This is a fine move. It will do something. It will give us all the means to keep our
governments, in particular the government of the day, in check when it comes to
the delivery of health care.
We
have expressed many concerns in this House about a movement away from the
medicare principles by the Conservatives of Manitoba. We have expressed concern about the erosion
of universal quality health care here in
We
are very worried about the rapid rise in private surgical procedures here in
The
bigger issue is, of course, the question of whether or not there will even be a
medicare system to worry about and whether or not it will make any difference
to have these principles entrenched in Manitoba, in provincial law, if there is
no national health care system that is universal and portable and accessible
and comprehensive and run on the basis of public nonprofit administration.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, I have tried on numerous occasions in this House to find ways
to work with members of the government, to try to form some sort of united
coalition around the issue of preservation of medicare.
It
is regrettable that that kind of effort has not succeeded and that in fact the
present administration has shown little commitment to the preservation of a national
health care system founded on these very principles as outlined in Bill 51.
Let
us for the record, once again, state the reality that even now members of the
Conservative government of
Let
us remember Bill C‑69, Bill C‑20 and other legislative and
regulatory moves to change the formula for funding of health care and post‑secondary
education under EPF, the Established Program Financing Act.
* (1720)
Let
us all remind ourselves that if nothing else changes, if no other legislative
amendments are made, funding for health care, funding for provincial health
care systems will dry up, will end, will come to a complete halt. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is coming faster
than we think.
By
everyone's documentation and statistical analysis now, even the Conservatives',
money will run out for
Already
we know what is happening: that
provinces like‑‑headed up by Frank McKenna are looking at user
fees. Other provinces are looking at‑‑[interjection!
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the member for
Many
provinces have looked, and I think of
Thank
you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mr.
Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to the
debate this afternoon and the opportunity to put a few words on the record
today on this very important bill, Bill 51, a bill again introduced by the
Health critic for the Liberal Party, a bill that we support, and we hope that
the government will bring to a vote here this afternoon.
The
No. 1 concern to me and my constituents, I know that all of us, as we have gone
out and knocked on doors‑‑I have done this several times in my
constituency, up and down the various streets of my constituency‑‑it
is always a No. 1 issue. We have within Selkirk
the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, and we have got the
Again,
what the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis) was mentioning, that
this bill asks that the five basic principles of the Canada Health Act be
entrenched in law, it is very important for us, for New Democrats, obviously
enough considering the fact that it was the New Democrat government which was‑‑CCF
government which originally introduced the form of medicare in Saskatchewan, who
first brought it in. It has been New
Democrat governments since that have fought for universal medical care for
Canadians. It is one of the things they talk about their country as has been voted
as the finest country in the world to live in.
In spite of the efforts of the federal Conservatives.
One
of the principle reasons why they stated that this country is one of the best
countries to live in is our medicare system, which is again, like I said, in
spite of Conservative governments. One
can only imagine how high we would rank if New Democrats were to be elected
federally here in this country. So that
would be very interesting to see, and we will have to wait and see, of course,
as the federal election approaches and we may have the opportunity to form
government. I will be anxious to see how
the members opposite vote, if they will be voting for their federal Tory
counterparts.
So
often I have attended functions where there were federal ministers there or a
federal member from Selkirk, and he is at complete odds with the provincial
Conservative Party, completely different.
I have gone to a thing where Felix Holtmann was there, and he was
yelling out, do not blame me, blame Gary Filmon, blame Harry Enns, do not blame
me. We are in the same Chamber where we
have the members opposite, do not blame me, blame Brian Mulroney.
So
it would be kind of interesting to see when they go into the next election,
when they go into that little booth and all the names are on the ballot, whose
names they are going to mark. It will be interesting to see if they are going
to support Dorothy Dobbie or Bjornson‑‑
An
Honourable Member: Alcock.
Mr.
Dewar: Well, maybe they will be supporting Reg. It will be kind of fun to see. [interjection!
Who knows, they may be supporting the Reform Party here. I imagine a number of them may support the
Reform Party, and that again is interesting political beliefs there. What exactly is the Reform Party position on medicare‑‑I
am sure many of the members opposite know those positions quite well since they
probably‑‑the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) states that many
of them probably have a dual membership in both of those political
parties. I would not be surprised if
they know Preston Manning's home phone number there.
I
am kind of amused at some of the members in the House, Tory government members
introduce bills and they will speak in French, which is fine, but I do not know
if Preston Manning knows that they are doing this here. It is kind of a concern of mine. The member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) often
will demonstrate his bilingual nature.
An
Honourable Member: Do you have something against bilingualism now?
Mr.
Dewar: No, I have nothing against it, but obviously
one of your political heroes, Preston Manning, does. So you had better be careful that he does not
hear you using our second language. He may rip up your card in the Reform
Party. You never know. [interjection!
That is true.
So
what exactly is the Reform Party's position on such things as medicare? It is interesting. Well, the five‑‑I do have a quote
here somewhere, but I do not know if anybody is interested in hearing it.
It
is ironic, of course, to us on this side of the House, even though we do
support the member on this particular bill, that it was brought in by a Liberal
member, considering some of the policies of the federal Liberals. I believe it was in 1976 amendments to the
Medical Care Act, passed by the Liberal government, imposed limitations on the
amount of federal contributions to medical care costs.
In
1977 they established EPF programs, legislation passed with the support of the
Conservatives, and this legislation introduced block funding. It ended the practice of 50‑50 financing
by the federal government for medical care.
In
1982 the Liberal government eliminated the revenue guarantee component of the
EPF financing, thus cutting $5 billion from money which would have gone for
health care over the next five years.
In
1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which I am going to read some
quotes from immediately here, containing provisions to deal with the problems
of user fees and extra billing for medical services.
In
1986 the federal Conservative government this time passed Bill 96 reducing the
rate of increase in EPF fundings. It is estimated
that this will cost health and post‑secondary education $2 billion
annually by 1992.
In
'89 the federal Conservatives introduced Bill C‑33, again which was an
attempt to reduce transfers.
In
1990 Wilson, the federal Minister of Finance, again reduced EPF funding to the
provinces, and Bill C‑69 froze funding at 1989 levels.
In
this last year,
So
it is interesting‑‑[interjection! Where were our federal Tory
members of Parliament then? Where were
our provincial Tories? Where was David
Bjornson and Felix Holtmann and Dorothy Dobbie?
I know you guys are going to have a hard time supporting them in the
next federal election, and I do not have that difficulty. I certainly will not be worried about that.
* (1730)
In
fact, the federal Tories praised medicare, Mulroney called it a sacred
trust. He called it a sacred trust, I
believe, and when he was running for office and he was trying to outdo Wilson at
the time of who was more compassionate, who actually cared more about social
programs in this country, who cared more about the continuation of medicare‑‑oh,
it is a sacred trust; we will not touch this.
As soon as they got into power, the first thing they did was deindex
seniors pensions which is something, of course, that this government‑‑they
know a lot about deindexing, because they deindexed the 55 Plus in the past
budget, an issue that the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) has raised several times,
an issue that affected seniors in this province. So they know a lot about‑‑obviously,
they learned their lesson well.
They
praise‑‑the PCs will praise medicare, a sacred trust, best country
in the world because we have these medical services here. Yet when they had a chance to go down on Bill
C‑20, who went? Did the Minister
of Health (Mr. Orchard) go down to
Did
anyone go? Who went? The Minister of Health? No.
Did anyone from the Liberal Party go down to
Why
did he not go? It is a terrible
indictment of this government's philosophy towards medicare when they do not
even bother going down there. They do
not even make the effort to go down there to stand up for medicare by opposing
or at least making an effort to oppose Bill C‑20. Maybe they had a chance to talk to some of
their federal cabinet ministers, give them the advice. Apparently, there is again‑‑who
knows?‑‑rumours that Jake Epp is in favour of user fees. This is again a quote I had, I believe from
the Ottawa Citizen, where he was quoted as saying that he is not exactly
opposed to user fees. [interjection! Oh, definitely it would play well in
Steinbach.
There
is a myth when the PCs ran in Central Nova in 1983, well, that was of course
when our current Prime Minister was running for office, I believe. The quote goes: As the Progressive Conservative Party
believes that we can reverse the ominous trends of past decades and secure once
again the future
This
is a quote from Conservative campaign literature in 1983‑‑maintain
important social programs, protecting the principles of medicare. What are we seeing? Members opposite have mentioned it, have said
it many, many times to us, that the federal government is abandoning their
policies, abandoning medicare by their policies. They have admitted that in very unequal terms
by the references that they have made here, they have often criticized, you
know, we are bringing in this; we are bringing in that. We have to in response to the cutbacks from the
federal government, cutbacks that will continue.
We
see this in the budget brought in by our provincial Health minister here, where
he charged $50 user fees for northern patients for transportation south of the
North for elective surgery. The member
for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has raised the issue where some of his constituents
have had to use this service three or four times, racking up quite expensive
bills for those who already often have unemployment rates in the north of this province
up to 25 percent.
So
we can see again that if this government were to stand up a bit more against
their federal counterparts, maybe some of these issues would be resolved
instead of having to pass this legislation here. We recognize‑‑I see my light is
flashing, so with those few comments I would like to conclude my remarks this afternoon.
Mr.
Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to
rise and speak in support of Bill 51, The Health Services Insurance Amendment
Act. What is this bill and what is the
purport of it? What is its
intention? Its intention is to put into
The Health Services Act the five principles that are now in the federal
legislation, namely comprehensiveness, universality, portability, accessibility
and public administration.
I
will not go into them and define them or expand on them with one exception, and
that is public administration. These days
we frequently hear comparisons, especially by our Conservative colleagues
across the way, about the differences between the American economic system and
the Canadian economic system and free trade.
Quite often we hear the jargon of free trade about the level playing
field. One of the items that comes up
most frequently is that taxes are too high in
If
you look at differences between
There
was an excellent program on The Journal that I hope some other people saw about
the move to a publicly administered medicare system in the
So,
of course, the corporations now want to move to publicly funded medicare
because it would take the burden off the corporations. Now, hopefully, corporations would be paying
taxes to support a publicly supported medicare program. We do not know that, but we could assume or
hope that would be true. It would also
mean the taxpayers would have to pick up part of the cost of a public‑administered
plan.
To
get back to my original point, it is that it is not fair, I would say, to
compare taxation of individuals and corporations in the United States and
taxation in Canada, because in Canada we pay through our tax system for an
excellent medicare system, and the costs are actually lower, a lower percentage
of our gross national product to support medicare in Canada.
* (1740)
There
are numerous reasons for that. One
reason is that in the
So
those are my comments on the public administration part of the five principles.
We
in the NDP have long been supporters of a publicly administered health care
system, commonly known as medicare. In fact,
it goes back before 1961 when Tommy Douglas and his government in
There
were good reasons for that. We know that
the Great Depression, commonly known as the Dirty Thirties in
In
fact, it is very interesting to live in rural
The
member for
Now
the Liberal Party in
One
of the stories that I was going to tell about
An
Honourable Member: He was a humanitarian.
Mr.
Martindale: As my colleague said, he was a humanitarian,
and a humanitarian is generally considered to be a good type of person to
be. But the problem is that no one
should have to depend on the charity of a doctor or the charity of a hospital
or the charity of a municipality in order to receive medical care, as many,
many people were forced to do.
Of
course, during election campaigns in Saskatchewan‑‑and I must say,
they are great fun. I was in
During
election campaigns, at political rallies, especially NDP political rallies,
people tell stories about the introduction of medicare and what it was like
living in
As
we know, that does not happen anymore.
In fact, one of the ironies of the Saskatchewan situation is that even
though the vast majority of doctors fought very hard against the implementation
of medicare, now doctors are better off than ever before as a result of
medicare because now they always get paid; whereas in the past when the billed
patients, frequently they did not get paid if patients could not afford to pay
the fees. Now doctors always get paid.
It
is something like Autopac in
What
about Ross Thatcher? Well, I think he
was in for one term and then he got kicked out.
We
have some serious concerns about the erosion of medicare. We are concerned
because there has been a decline in funding from the federal government, and
this is not a recent decline. This did
not begin in 1984 with the election of a Conservative government. This began with the Liberal governments,
beginning in 1976 when amendments to the Medical Care Act were passed by the
Liberal government, imposing limitations on the amount of federal contributions
to medical care costs.
So
this slippery slope that we are on of declining of federal transfer payments to
provinces did not begin recently, did not begin with the Conservatives. It began way back here with the Liberals,
this slowly declining and now quickly declining transfer of payments from the
federal government to provincial governments for medicare costs.
In
1977 established programs financing legislation passed with the support of the
Conservatives. This legislation introduced
block funding and ended the practice of 50‑50 financing by the federal
government for medical care. Who was the
government in
In
1982 the Liberal government eliminates the revenue guarantee component of the
established programs financing, thus cutting $5 billion from money which would
have gone for health and post‑secondary education over the next five
years. Who was in government in 1982 in
In
1984 Parliament passes the Canada Health Act, containing provisions to deal
with the problems of user fees and extra billing for medical services. In fact, the Liberal government did something
good in 1984 by passing this legislation.
I was part of a campaign in the community to save medicare, and it was the
result of coalitions in Manitoba and all across Canada that the Canada Health
Act amendments were passed.
In
1986 the Conservative government passes Bill C‑96, reducing the rate of
increase in established programs financing. It is estimated this will cost
health and post‑secondary education $2 billion annually by 1992.
In
1989 the Conservatives introduced Bill C‑33 which attempted to further
reduce the transfers to the GNP, minus 3 percent with the caveat that it could
not fall below the consumer price index.
Unfortunately, costs in the affected areas tend to rise more quickly
than the GNP. This bill did not
pass. It was replaced in 1990 by Bill C‑69.
My
colleague from
In
1990 Finance Minister Wilson went for further EPF cuts. The Tories, through
Bill C‑69, have frozen funding at 1989 levels until the end of 1992. In 1991,
A
survey of provincial and territorial government budgets reveals that most
provinces, the most notable exception being Ontario, have responded by reducing
insured services, increasing premiums, drastically reducing staff and closing
beds. Provincial governments lay the blame directly at the feet of the federal
Tory government.
Madam
Deputy Speaker, there are a number of myths about medicare. For example, Michael Wilson, in his budget
papers of 1991, said: I recognize that
limiting the growth of transfers under established programs financing raises
concerns about the ability of the federal government to continue enforcing
national medicare principles under the Canada Health Act. Legislation will be introduced to ensure that
the federal government continues to have the means to enforce these national
medicare principles. The principles of
the Canada Health Act will not be compromised.
That
is the myth. In reality, the Canadian
Medical Association president, Dr. Lionel Lavoie, accused the government of
financially strangling medicare because of the way
I
have one more quote that I want to use, because I think it is a good one. It has to do with the Manitoba Conservative
Party and their federal minister the Honourable Jake Epp, the Minister of
Energy. He wants his cabinet colleagues
to consider introducing user fees to the health care system, quote: On the basis that it reduces costs, what we
are saying is it is valid and should be considered. It would mean less of a drain on the system.
* (1750)
Epp's
position was supported by the provincial wing of the federal Conservative Party
which wants a fee to discourage abuse of the system. [interjection!
You
will have to take my word for it.
We
on this side are opposed to user fees because what it means is that poor people
do not access medicare.
Point of Order
Mr.
Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): On a point of order, I would
like to have the letter tabled that the honourable member was reading from.
Madam
Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Norbert does not
have a point of order.
* * *
Mr.
Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is my pleasure to
rise to add my comments to this important bill, Bill 51, The Health Services
Insurance Amendment Act. As the previous
speakers for our party have indicated, we are supportive of this particular
piece of legislation and its intent on what it tries to do for the people of
It
indicates that there are five administrative principles that are shown in this
particular piece of legislation and it shows‑‑and I will indicate
the five basic principles that we think are very important to medicare in this
province and in this country. They are
the public administration, the comprehensiveness of the plan, the universality
of medicare, the portability and the accessibility‑‑
Madam
Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
Point of Order
Mr.
Laurendeau: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would ask that the honourable
member table the letter and he passes it on to the member for Selkirk (Mr.
Dewar) and he has it rushed out of the House.
That is uncalled for and unreasonable when the member for Selkirk can
hustle a piece of paper out that that member does not want me to read. I am horrified, horrified, that that member,
a reverend, would sneak a piece of paper out of this House.
Madam
Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I previously ruled on the point of order and,
in my opinion, I did not witness the member reading from that specific piece of
paper, and I ruled that there was no point of order.
* * *
Mr.
Reid: I am somewhat shocked at the display of the
honourable member opposite. I hoped that
we could have seen some level of decorum in this Chamber, and it is obvious
that that member opposite was not intent on allowing that to take place in the Chamber
during debate here today.
(Mr.
Speaker in the Chair)
To
continue my remarks, the previous speaker, the member for Burrows (Mr.
Martindale), has indicated the fundamental differences between
Last
year, Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to discuss the differences between
When
I indicated to them the difference between
So
if the average family had to pay that, I think it would be beyond their ability
to pay that type of monthly premium, similar to what my family has seen in the
States in what they have explained to me.
So that is why we believe very strongly in the concept of universality
and accessibility, along with the other administrative principles that this
bill brings forward.
There
are many things, Mr. Speaker, that we could talk about in debating this bill
here today, but I believe other members of the Chamber would also like to have
the opportunity to add their comments to the record as well. I know, Mr. Speaker, I will hopefully have
another opportunity at a later date to add further comments to this particular
piece of legislation.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker: As previously agreed, this matter will remain
standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst).
Six
o'clock? Is it the will of the House to
call it six o'clock? It is agreed? Agreed.
The
hour being 6 p.m., this House now adjourns and stands adjourned till 10 a.m.
tomorrow morning (Friday).